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Author Topic: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?  (Read 8653 times)

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GendoIkari

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How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« on: October 14, 2013, 02:56:12 pm »
+1

Played an IRL game last night. (First game in a very long time; quite rusty. Also friendly game with my wife; not super-competitive). Anyway, the Kingdom was:

Feodum
Wharf
Scheme
Tournament
Trading Post
Altar
Ironworks
Village
Fairgrounds
Mystic

So my plan was to basically rush Ironworks and Feodums; grabbing Silvers with Trading Post and Ironworks. My wife went Tournament-Faigrounds. The game ended up dragging on quite a bit; which was really bad for my Silver-Feodum filled deck. The game ended on Silver, Estate, and Feodum. I had 15 Silvers and 5 Feoda. She had the other 3 with 9 Silver, but also 5 Fairgrounds that were worth Provinces. I also had 3 Curses from her Followers. So I got killed.

So is Ironworks/Feodum a thing? Should I have raced the Tournaments? (I avoided Province until the end because I knew Feodum and Fairgrounds would both be about as good). Or should I have just built a Village-Wharf engine and bought up the Fairgrounds/Provinces?
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Robz888

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2013, 03:46:00 pm »
+2

Ironworks/Feoda is NOT a thing. I think any Feoda-centric plan is going to fail miserably here. Because it means you are going to get killed on the Tournament front, and then Fairgrounds is actually a really nice eventual direction for a deck full of Prizes. And actually, Trusty Steed eventually makes Feoda maybe sort of kind of possible. But yeah, Ironworks/Feoda from the get-go will get crushed here... and most of the time in general. It's not actually very good.
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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2013, 04:05:17 pm »
0

Feodum on the whole is just weak, really.
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Warfreak2

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2013, 04:19:19 pm »
0

Feodum is good when it's enabled. Ironworks isn't a good enough enabler, Squire is a little better, Hermit and Trading post are not terrible, but really you should be looking for something like JOAT, Trusty Steed, Trader or Masterpiece. Otherwise, it's easy to ignore.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 04:34:32 pm by Warfreak2 »
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DG

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2013, 04:59:27 pm »
0

Provinces are just too good to be ignored here. They block tournaments, followers are a good attack, trusty steed can gives silvers, bag of gold can sustain a deck in a long alt-vp game, prizes help fairground variety, tournaments can gain you duchies, etc.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 05:55:25 pm by DG »
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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2013, 05:17:49 pm »
0

Tournament is a great 4$ card, and becomes much much better if your opponent plays a strategy that wont get provinces. Alt-vp is a big trap on a tournament board.  Your wives fairgrounds were a nice kick to the face but should could have beat you easily just focusing on Province.
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Polk5440

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2013, 05:25:35 pm »
0

I second going for winning Tournament first (for Trusty Stead if you want to go Feodum, Followers if Fairgrounds or Province... but really, just buy the Provinces, I think, if you win the Tournaments first).

To get there, I would open Ironworks-Silver and Ironworks another Ironworks then Tournaments, Schemes, and Villages. Go for Wharf. Draw and buy. You can pick up Feodum on the extra buys late if you want. On $6 I think it's a tough call between Altar (Wharf and engine pieces and later Feodum/Silver if you go that direction) and Gold -- depends where you're at in the province race.

My working hypothesis is that any viable Feodum strategy will never ignore all other victory cards.
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SCSN

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2013, 05:47:12 pm »
0

Tournament is a great 4$ card, and becomes much much better if your opponent plays a strategy that wont get provinces. Alt-vp is a big trap on a tournament board.  Your wives fairgrounds were a nice kick to the face but should could have beat you easily just focusing on Province.

You certainly want one Province for the prizes, but after that Fairgrounds are superior because they cost $6 instead of $8 and are really easy to get to 6VP on this board (even 8 if you're playing with Shelters or through price gaining). And, perhaps most importantly, you want to prevent the Feodum player from being able to transition into Fairgrounds (for which he'll have the time if you have to piledrive Provinces on your own), because for him the price difference between $6 and $8 is even more significant than it is for you.
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DG

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 06:02:52 pm »
0

Quote
You certainly want one Province for the prizes, but after that Fairgrounds are superior because they cost $6 instead of $8

I don't think so. Provinces in hand are very important for stopping your opponent's tournaments and claiming duchies. It also may be more important to alter your strategy based on leads and the length of game.
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SCSN

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2013, 06:05:31 pm »
0

Quote
You certainly want one Province for the prizes, but after that Fairgrounds are superior because they cost $6 instead of $8

I don't think so. Provinces in hand are very important for stopping your opponent's tournaments and claiming duchies. It also may be more important to alter your strategy based on leads and the length of game.

Exactly how many Tournaments do you expect a Ironworks/Feodum player to have?
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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2013, 06:10:23 pm »
+1

I don't think you guys are on the same page. One of you is assuming that the opponent is going for feodum, the other isn't.

DG

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 06:37:23 pm »
0

Hmm, ok, lets think again. Yep, provinces are still better since the only way to lose that game against foedums is to extend it into a long alt vp battle (or clog your deck with estates).
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 06:39:25 pm by DG »
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SCSN

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 06:43:20 pm »
0

Which is exactly what will happen if you set out to get all 8 Provinces on your own.
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Destierro

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2013, 10:34:15 pm »
+2

Which is exactly what will happen if you set out to get all 8 Provinces on your own.

Are you kidding? Wharf / Village can get 8 provinces on it's own fairly easily, and this board adds prizes, Scheme, and strong trashing! Getting 8 provinces will be a cakewalk, and Followers is just brutal.

The engine beats a Feodum slog every time here.

Now that's not to say that fairgrounds are useless here. They'll be quite good, and with luck could even get up to being 8 points a pop. But you'll want to get them later than usual, because tournament is just too strong.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 11:10:29 pm »
+2

I think Destierro has explained it well, there's not really time for Feoda on this board (unless some sort of engine mirror degrades to a drawn out VP dance). My first solitaire cleared Provinces in 13 turns, with decent luck of course.
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Davio

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2013, 02:22:39 am »
0

Feodum on the whole is just weak, really.
Maybe not weak per se, but it takes a lot of work, most of the time too much work.
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Qvist

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2013, 09:26:02 am »
+1

Feodum on the whole is just weak, really.
Maybe not weak per se, but it takes a lot of work, most of the time too much work.

Uhm, let's say it differently. Feodum plays often differently than Silk Road or Gardens as you can't rush on piles. It has two scenarios where it's good.
1.) Slogs in which you have not much money and a lot of Silvers anyway.
2.) Big Money-ish boards where you have a support card which gains you Silvers. Then you go for Feoda first and then go for Provinces.

Davio

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2013, 09:34:04 am »
+1

Yes, the thing is: With Feodum you're dependent on another card (Silver) to make them worth a bunch.

With Silk Roads and Gardens, obtaining more of them attributes to their own worth.
Feodum compares more closely to Duke than either of those two.

Even with say, Jack of all Trades, Feodum is going to be slow. So slow that I think bringing them down to 1 VP for every 2 Silvers wouldn't quite make them overpowered.

I'd rather look at Feodum as a "consolation price" for when you can't even get a Duchy and need the VP. You need 12 Silvers to make them worth 1 VP more than Duchy and that's a number you aren't going to hit fast enough without good support.

So what does Feodum need? Trader, Masterpiece and the likes, premium cards for Silver flooding. Sub-premium but still decent gainers like Jack aren't good enough. Also, with the sub-premium Silver flooders, it's easy enough to just get Provinces instead so you'll still go that way often.
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SCSN

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2013, 09:48:04 am »
+1

Which is exactly what will happen if you set out to get all 8 Provinces on your own.

Are you kidding? Wharf / Village can get 8 provinces on it's own fairly easily, and this board adds prizes, Scheme, and strong trashing! Getting 8 provinces will be a cakewalk, and Followers is just brutal.

The engine beats a Feodum slog every time here.

Now that's not to say that fairgrounds are useless here. They'll be quite good, and with luck could even get up to being 8 points a pop. But you'll want to get them later than usual, because tournament is just too strong.

Simulations I've done show that even Hermit/Market Square loses to BMU about 2.5% of the time. I've examined the logs of the losing games and they all show absolutely horrible shuffle luck (i.e. it's not due to poor programming). This surprised me: I expected H/M to win 100% of the games. So I started thinking a bit about this mismatch between my expectation and reality, and concluded that when I (and I assume others too) intuitively examine the validity of a strategy, we take for granted at least slightly bad to mediocre shuffle luck, thus not accounting for the worst 10% and certainly not the worst 1-2% of scenarios.

On to this game. I obviously agree that with, say, top 95% shuffle luck a massive Wharf engine crushes a Feodum strategy, regardless of whether you go for Provinces or Fairgrounds. Maybe going for Provinces gets you the win a bit faster, or maybe going for Fairgrounds does, but it doesn't matter: what's faster is completely irrelevant if you're winning anyway.

To determine what to go for, then, we have to look at the situations where you have atrocious shuffle luck in combination with your opponent doing well. This starts with not getting your first Wharf until the end of the 3rd shuffle, and it then landing on the bottom of your deck. You'll eventually grab some Provinces, but you keep drawing poorly: your Wharves keep on colliding, they draw two Villages dead, you keep hitting $7, etc. Now, in the absolute worst case scenario, your opponent will win regardless of what you do. In some slightly better situations, however, you slowly collect the Provinces while your opponent catches up via Fairgrounds. Here having gone for Provinces was a critical mistake, because denying Fairgrounds would have made it a hell of a lot harder for your opponent to catch up, as he now has to get $8 Provinces instead of $6 Fairgrounds, and the Fairgrounds are also easier for you to get, making it far less likely that you miss.

I have a very poor intuition for how often these worst-case scenarios occur (I wouldn't be surprised by anything between 0.1% and 5% lol), but I'm sure that when they do occur, having gone for Fairgrounds gives you significantly better prospects of still winning the game than having gone for Provinces does, and in all the other cases it doesn't matter.

Btw, I really do not appreciate things like "Are you kidding?" I'm certainly not always 100% right and I might even overlook something really obvious every now and then, but a priori it's much more likely that when something I say strikes you as totally ridiculous on a first glance, you're not fully understanding what I'm saying (for which I certainly deserve part of the blame--expressing myself precisely takes alot of time, and I often prefer giving a brief approximation of the underlying thought over saying nothing at all) than that I'm sprouting nonsense. If an objection is super obvious, it's likely that I've considered it as well.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 11:28:09 am by SheCantSayNo »
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DStu

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2013, 09:58:13 am »
0

So what does Feodum need? Trader, Masterpiece and the likes, premium cards for Silver flooding. Sub-premium but still decent gainers like Jack aren't good enough. Also, with the sub-premium Silver flooders, it's easy enough to just get Provinces instead so you'll still go that way often.

I have the feeling that Bureaucrat/Feodum might be something to consider. This one
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'Feodum/Bureaucrat'
  author: 'DStu'
  requires: ["Bureaucrat", "Feodum"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 4
    "Bureaucrat" if my.countInDeck("Bureaucrat") < 2
    "Feodum" if my.countInDeck("Silver") > 2
    "Duchy" if my.countInDeck("Silver") > 2
    "Silver"
    "Estate" if state.countInSupply("Feodum") == 0
  ]
}
is not optimized and beats weaker BigMoney variants (Smithy, Courtyard, Militia (even if these counter by prefering Feodum>Duchy in the endgame)).  Of course, it is not a killer combo, but contrary to Jack, Bureaucrat does not enable BigMoney (nor engines) itself, the strategy is quite resilent to discard attacks, and has an attack (especially against BigMoney).  It doesn't stand a chance against stronger BigMoneys (Jack, Witch, Wharf) or variants that can live with the longer game (Monument, Baker, Jack again) and of course not at all against a megaturn engine, but also seems to beat Bureaucrat/Gardens.

So on a weak board maybe something to consider.

Edit: with 3 Bureaucrats it (slightly) beats DoubleWitch
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 10:04:49 am by DStu »
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Davio

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2013, 10:29:08 am »
0

Okay, granted, but are the BMs modified to buy Feoda?
Most of the time, they're just focused on Province/Duchy/Estate and I have a feeling they'd do better if they snagged a couple of Feoda instead of Estates.

You can't just tweak one side without tweaking the other and passing a verdict. :)
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Qvist

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2013, 10:51:02 am »
0

Yes, the thing is: With Feodum you're dependent on another card (Silver) to make them worth a bunch.

With Silk Roads and Gardens, obtaining more of them attributes to their own worth.
Feodum compares more closely to Duke than either of those two.

Even with say, Jack of all Trades, Feodum is going to be slow. So slow that I think bringing them down to 1 VP for every 2 Silvers wouldn't quite make them overpowered.

I'd rather look at Feodum as a "consolation price" for when you can't even get a Duchy and need the VP. You need 12 Silvers to make them worth 1 VP more than Duchy and that's a number you aren't going to hit fast enough without good support.

So what does Feodum need? Trader, Masterpiece and the likes, premium cards for Silver flooding. Sub-premium but still decent gainers like Jack aren't good enough. Also, with the sub-premium Silver flooders, it's easy enough to just get Provinces instead so you'll still go that way often.

Sure, Feodum is no power card by any means. And Trader and Masterpiece may be the only cards where it's game dominating. And your comparism to Duke is pretty accurate. But the dependance of Silver is not that hard as you can trash for 3 silvers too. Don't forget that. That's either pretty handy if you can Feoda back from the trash (Graverobber, Rogue) or what's to consider on every board if they are uncontested. If one player goes for Feoda and another ignores them completetly, you can trash 1-2 Feoda for 6-7 points, so a Province worth. So if you're going to incorporate Feoda into your strategy and trash the first one you get for 3 silvers, so you get a huge early economy boost and each Feodum you buy is already worth 1VP more. Do that again with another one, then it's already 12VP if the Feoda are uncontested. And if the other player contests them, you haven't lost anything as you still have the buying power to go for Provinces. I'm pretty sure that Double Jack beats anything with Jack and Feodum, but on boards with no possible engine a BM strategy that incorporates Feodum is still to consider, similar to a strategy that goes for Duke. There are still a few cards that work well with Feodum. Explorer+Feodum, especially with a trasher should beat straight Explorer BM. Hermit or Squire are good support cards and Bureaucrat was already mentioned. Stonemason is also a good trasher for 5 Silvers.

DStu

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2013, 12:09:56 pm »
0

Okay, granted, but are the BMs modified to buy Feoda?
Most of the time, they're just focused on Province/Duchy/Estate and I have a feeling they'd do better if they snagged a couple of Feoda instead of Estates.

You can't just tweak one side without tweaking the other and passing a verdict. :)

Quote from: me
(even if these counter by prefering Feodum>Duchy in the endgame)
... but I didn't tweak much on both sides of the sims, the bots Bureaucrat/Gardens were my first (and second) guess, and you can certainly improve the buy order on when to buy how many Bureaucrats.  I played a bit with Feodum endgames for BigMoney (instead of Duchies, instead of Estates, no small green at all), but not much...
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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2013, 12:49:12 pm »
0

To come back to the originial question, Ironworks/Feodum seems to be about a thing as Bureaucrat/Feodum,
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'Feodum/Ironworks'
  author: 'DStu'
  requires: ["Ironworks", "Feodum"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 4
    "Ironworks" if my.countInDeck("Ironworks") < 4
    "Ironworks" if my.countInHand("Ironworks") > 0
    "Feodum" if my.countInDeck("Silver") > 2
    "Duchy" if my.countInDeck("Silver") > 2
    "Silver"
    "Estate" if state.countInSupply("Feodum") == 0
  ]
}
wins against the same BigMoney variants, loses against the stronger ones also beats Baker, Monument and Goons. Seems a bit stronger than Bureaucrat to me, on the other hand Ironworks on the board makes the kingdom more attractive to engines (which should beat this).  Again, this is not a verdict, further investigation is needed to confirm this preliminary findings. This will be addressed in future papers... ;)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 12:51:52 pm by DStu »
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Destierro

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Re: How do you play Feodum/Wharf/Tournament?
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2013, 04:38:53 pm »
+1

Which is exactly what will happen if you set out to get all 8 Provinces on your own.

Are you kidding? Wharf / Village can get 8 provinces on it's own fairly easily, and this board adds prizes, Scheme, and strong trashing! Getting 8 provinces will be a cakewalk, and Followers is just brutal.

The engine beats a Feodum slog every time here.

Now that's not to say that fairgrounds are useless here. They'll be quite good, and with luck could even get up to being 8 points a pop. But you'll want to get them later than usual, because tournament is just too strong.

Simulations I've done show that even Hermit/Market Square loses to BMU about 2.5% of the time. I've examined the logs of the losing games and they all show absolutely horrible shuffle luck (i.e. it's not due to poor programming). This surprised me: I expected H/M to win 100% of the games. So I started thinking a bit about this mismatch between my expectation and reality, and concluded that when I (and I assume others too) intuitively examine the validity of a strategy, we take for granted at least slightly bad to mediocre shuffle luck, thus not accounting for the worst 10% and certainly not the worst 1-2% of scenarios.

On to this game. I obviously agree that with, say, top 95% shuffle luck a massive Wharf engine crushes a Feodum strategy, regardless of whether you go for Provinces or Fairgrounds. Maybe going for Provinces gets you the win a bit faster, or maybe going for Fairgrounds does, but it doesn't matter: what's faster is completely irrelevant if you're winning anyway.

To determine what to go for, then, we have to look at the situations where you have atrocious shuffle luck in combination with your opponent doing well. This starts with not getting your first Wharf until the end of the 3rd shuffle, and it then landing on the bottom of your deck. You'll eventually grab some Provinces, but you keep drawing poorly: your Wharves keep on colliding, they draw two Villages dead, you keep hitting $7, etc. Now, in the absolute worst case scenario, your opponent will win regardless of what you do. In some slightly better situations, however, you slowly collect the Provinces while your opponent catches up via Fairgrounds. Here having gone for Provinces was a critical mistake, because denying Fairgrounds would have made it a hell of a lot harder for your opponent to catch up, as he now has to get $8 Provinces instead of $6 Fairgrounds, and the Fairgrounds are also easier for you to get, making it far less likely that you miss.

I have a very poor intuition for how often these worst-case scenarios occur (I wouldn't be surprised by anything between 0.1% and 5% lol), but I'm sure that when they do occur, having gone for Fairgrounds gives you significantly better prospects of still winning the game than having gone for Provinces does, and in all the other cases it doesn't matter.

Btw, I really do not appreciate things like "Are you kidding?" I'm certainly not always 100% right and I might even overlook something really obvious every now and then, but a priori it's much more likely that when something I say strikes you as totally ridiculous on a first glance, you're not fully understanding what I'm saying (for which I certainly deserve part of the blame--expressing myself precisely takes alot of time, and I often prefer giving a brief approximation of the underlying thought over saying nothing at all) than that I'm sprouting nonsense. If an objection is super obvious, it's likely that I've considered it as well.
Ok, you've confused me slightly. From your post I took that you were advocating a Feodum strategy, which while on some boards can be good, but just isn't here. Fairgrounds on the other hand, are much better.

Fairgrounds here will be 6 points. There are plenty of ways to get it there and still have a strong engine. However there is a problem. Tournament is just dominating, and the top two picks will certainly be followers, then princess. I'm not denying that there is room for a comeback from the fairgrounds player, but provinces can not be ignored here. You raise a point about hitting 7$ too often, or bad shuffles. Hitting 7$ is less of a problem in an engine, as you can just keep building. In fact, my first 8$ would be Wharf/ and a 3$ card

Bad shuffles are hugely mitigated by scheme. To a point where they are simply impossible to have. Scheme a village back on top of the deck, and when your wharves draw next turn you'll have an unstoppable drawing engine. Once you have followers, scheming a deadly attack every turn. Scheme will do what it's meant to do, smooth shuffleluck to a point where you don't get bad draws anymore.

Trading post is also very important here. It will be extremely helpful to hit 5$, and trashes well at the same time. Altar is a card I'm less sure of. I don't know if it will be worth the loss in tempo. It can be powerful, but I think it's outshone here by the other cards. I could be wrong on this front however.

The game ended on Silver, Estate, and Feodum. I had 15 Silvers and 5 Feoda. She had the other 3 with 9 Silver
I'm a bit confused here. Did you play with 40 silvers? Did you trash a huge amount of silvers? How did the game end when only 24 silvers were in both of your decks?
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