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[Asper]

What is a spell?

Spellcasters are a mechanic I introduced a while ago. In short, you buy effects up front and trigger them by playing (or in Stone Circle's case: gaining) a Spellcaster. There are 6 Spells with very basic effects: Drawing 2 cards, trashing any number, gaining a 5$ card, giving out a Curse, getting +4$ and gaining a Province. Check them (and the rules) out in the freshly updated OP. (Sorry, I'm on mobile, can't append pics right now).

[Asper]

I think Werewolf is too strong. Do you guys think either of this would work?
(The only difference is the amount of money and the cost)



If yes, which is better? Or is the idea as such horrible?

[AdrianHealey]

I like the $5 more.

[McGarnacle]

I also like the more. This is a really cool idea, very thematic, too.

[Asper]

Here's another variant that doesn't cause such delay, but is less thematic (and maybe the self-synergy is lame):



Also, I decided to try Minister with an on-gain penalty again:

[McGarnacle]

I like the old Werewolf better.

[AJD]

What is a spell?

Spellcasters are a mechanic I introduced a while ago. In short, you buy effects up front and trigger them by playing (or in Stone Circle's case: gaining) a Spellcaster. There are 6 Spells with very basic effects: Drawing 2 cards, trashing any number, gaining a 5$ card, giving out a Curse, getting +4$ and gaining a Province. Check them (and the rules) out in the freshly updated OP. (Sorry, I'm on mobile, can't append pics right now).

Hey so I just looked at the OP to get an explanation of Spells. You've got a Spell called Glory, which is $9, gain a Province, and say it's probably too cheap. Why is it too cheap? It sounds too expensive—"gain a Province later" shouldn't be more expensive than "gain a Province now", should it?

[GendoIkari]

What is a spell?

Spellcasters are a mechanic I introduced a while ago. In short, you buy effects up front and trigger them by playing (or in Stone Circle's case: gaining) a Spellcaster. There are 6 Spells with very basic effects: Drawing 2 cards, trashing any number, gaining a 5$ card, giving out a Curse, getting +4$ and gaining a Province. Check them (and the rules) out in the freshly updated OP. (Sorry, I'm on mobile, can't append pics right now).

Hey so I just looked at the OP to get an explanation of Spells. You've got a Spell called Glory, which is $9, gain a Province, and say it's probably too cheap. Why is it too cheap? It sounds too expensive—"gain a Province later" shouldn't be more expensive than "gain a Province now", should it?

Yeah I was just thinking the same thing. While I can see the advantage of "pay for a Province, but don't clog your deck with it until the game is almost over", it also has the drawbacks of "you only get the Province when you play a card that allows you to cast your spell" and "possibly pay for a Province, and never end up getting one". Kind of like Distant Lands in that way. So it might be balanced at if the rewards and the drawbacks cancel each other out. I guess in a game where I'm playing spells anyway, I'd more often than not spend my on a Glory than a Province, but it's definitely not strictly better.

[pacovf]

I understand that playtesting has shown that even 9$ is too cheap for Glory? Dunno.

About Werewolf: you could make it cheaper if you have a curse (or more?) in hand. It's thematic, and makes it weaker?

[Asper]

Yes, Glory is nuts. Playtesting has shown it to be really, really good. It might be okay for 8$, but I didn't have opportunity to try it out with the new versions of the Spellcasters.

I'm not happy with Werewolf. Maybe the oldest version works, but it looks rather strong. Hum. How would you guys say it compares to Legionary? What if it was the base version and gave a Silver with the curse?

[McGarnacle]

Yes, Glory is nuts. Playtesting has shown it to be really, really good. It might be okay for 8$, but I didn't have opportunity to try it out with the new versions of the Spellcasters.

I'm not happy with Werewolf. Maybe the oldest version works, but it looks rather strong. Hum. How would you guys say it compares to Legionary? What if it was the base version and gave a Silver with the curse?

This I think could be interesting. Might playtest it.

[Skumpy]

First time commenting/thinking about fan cards, for what it's worth.

The first thing I thought of for Werewolf was Legionary, as you mention. Terminal gold, with a chance to attack. In my unprofessional opinion, I think the Legionary attack is far stronger than a curse - it has the potential to singlehandedly ruin your opponent's next turn. If their deck/hand is good enough to recover from the attack, it's probably also good enough to withstand a curse. However, you could play multiple werewolves a turn and the Werewolf attack will land more often than Legionary in the early game, so I honestly feel like Legionary and Werewolf are at a similar strength level. Werewolf would make for a better starting buy, but Legionary powers up when you can draw more of your deck. I'd probably still give Legionary the edge.

It's also really similar to Soothsayer though. Immediate payload versus adding Golds to the deck. Both are good for $5, but I'd prefer the Soothsayer actual gold over the Werewolf virtual gold. I guess that's balanced out by the extra card from Soothsayer.


So yeah, the original Werewolf seems perfectly fine and balanced to me. If you still want to weaken it, you could try gaining the curse to the hand, which would be an ever-so-slightly weaker attack, as long as there are no draw-to-x.


My one complaint is that it's too great of a card name to not give it a more Werewolf-esque functionality. I've never done a fan card and probably never will, so I'm not one to talk, but it would be cool to give it some kind of 'everyone else gains a Werewolf unless ....'. Or you could turn it into a season card, and do something with that. Idk, just my 2 cents; you're welcome to ignore this.

[Asper]

Yay! Thanks for posting your first fan card opionions in my thread, Skumpy
This was a really in-depth analysis. I think I'm okay with the very first version of Werewolf after all.

About theme, I actually felt Werewolf was already rather thematic, with your defense being Silver.

[Asper]

Decided to drop the +Buy from Stone Circle. Yeah, I know. Spellcasters are weird. It's still nice to have a few more of them if you have them at all. It feels much more rewarding to learn the rules for 10 cards than for 5. And to tell the truth, they don't even play that bad in practice
At least you don't have to make sure nobody forgets to move the Season token forward... But maybe that's just because it's so hard to view all of the table in TTS... Speaking of which, hooray, my cards finally don't fit on a single TTS template anymore.

[Skumpy]

Yay! Thanks for posting your first fan card opionions in my thread, Skumpy
This was a really in-depth analysis. I think I'm okay with the very first version of Werewolf after all.

About theme, I actually felt Werewolf was already rather thematic, with your defense being Silver.

Yeah, I should've seen the silver connection. That was a nice idea.

[ThetaSigma12]

My thoughts on some of the recent changes:

Cliffside Village is really really really boring. I can't see a reason why it needs to exist.

Werewolf is thematic and cool. It seems a bit vanilla but the fact that discarding Silver is a unique trigger makes it stand out.

Minister needed the change IMO.

Improve is too vanilla-y for my taste. If it cost and said "Once per game:" then maybe I could buy into it.

Shaman and Conjurer are way too similar. I mean, the format "Vanilla Boni, you may cast a spell" was cool but these two just break it. 2 Terminal draw casters are too much.

Stone Circle is really cool. Maybe it could be cheaper, though. Wisdom, Wealth, and Purity aren't really good for casting in the buy phase.

Warlock should really be "You may cast a spell. If you did, each other player gains a curse" for or so. Again, Vanilla + Spell is really boring now.

Sorceress should have the + last just in case you care.

Mistress is a really cool card. I love it! However the wording and spacing looks horrendous, it should be:

+
Look through your discard pile. If it's Spring or Winter, you may shuffle all but up to 3 cards from it into your deck. Otherwise, you may shuffle up to 3 cards from it into your deck instead.

Heir had better art before IMO.

[Asper]

Cliffside Village is really really really boring. I can't see a reason why it needs to exist.

I get your point, but on the other hand, it's not like Junk Dealer or Bazaar have that interesting effects, either. Sometimes it's nice to have a card that just fills a gap between all those attempsts to create something new. I assume Cliffside Village also gets less interesting because of Homuculus, which is also optional, so probably a little on-gain or friendly interaction could spice it up. I'll think of it when I get an idea like that.

Minister needed the change IMO.

Yeah, that just felt really not fun, to always give out stuff. Here you want it early so you get the most of it, which plays a lot better.

Improve is too vanilla-y for my taste. If it cost and said "Once per game:" then maybe I could buy into it.

I'd like to playtest it first before I change something. I know you like your stuff more complex, but I'd rather start with the most simple concept and see how it evolves.

Shaman and Conjurer are way too similar. I mean, the format "Vanilla Boni, you may cast a spell" was cool but these two just break it. 2 Terminal draw casters are too much.

I felt that way for a while, and inbetween Shaman had an overpay effect that allowed you to prepare a Spell. I felt that stripping it of this actually made the cards less similar, though. It's obvious that +3 cards are more than +2, but in fact the biggest difference between the two is the buy - which is huge for Spellcasters. Conjurer can, for example, be used in an engine, and always buy back the Spell it used. Shaman can't. That said, I'll keep my eyes open for a way to make these two less different, maybe dropping one of them. Which one do you think should be dropped, and why?

Stone Circle is really cool. Maybe it could be cheaper, though. Wisdom, Wealth, and Purity aren't really good for casting in the buy phase.

Purity works just fine. Just, you know, don't play those Coppers you intend to trash. Wisdom admittedly is useless in the buy phase, but it still works with gainers. Wealth works with gainers or +Buy. So basically, Wisdom is more or less dead on certain boards for Stone Circle. I can live with that, however. The price could possibly be dropped to 3$, though. I'll have to playtest it for a bit, first.

Warlock should really be "You may cast a spell. If you did, each other player gains a curse" for or so. Again, Vanilla + Spell is really boring now.

I don't think I want to tie a bonus to casting a Spell. I'd rather drop the card altogether.

Sorceress should have the + last just in case you care.

Oops, I'll fix that.
Edit: I also had that mistake on Extortioner. Fixed that one, too.

Mistress is a really cool card. I love it! However the wording and spacing looks horrendous, it should be:

+
Look through your discard pile. If it's Spring or Winter, you may shuffle all but up to 3 cards from it into your deck. Otherwise, you may shuffle up to 3 cards from it into your deck instead.

I don't like the "Otherwise". I prefer the Seasons to be spelled out. Anyhow:

Heir had better art before IMO.

Don't think I can say anything here besides that I kind of prefer this one.

[ThetaSigma12]

Re Stone Circle:
It costs so it's hard to have enough copper still in your hand to make it worth while. Even if you have enough silver you'd probably be better off buying a .

Re Cliffside Village:
The difference there is that Seaside was the 3rd expansion, and Junk Dealer was the first cantrip trasher.

[Qvist]

Junk Dealer was the first cantrip trasher.

Upgrade?

[ThetaSigma12]

Junk Dealer was the first cantrip trasher.

Upgrade?

Oh yes. I always forget that exists.

Anyways, they are still significantly different that my point still stands I think.

[Asper]

Anyways, they are still significantly different that my point still stands I think.

Yes, and Cliffside Village is significantly different from Junk Dealer. I mean, I can live without you liking the card. I think it's fine. I could spice it up, but your preferences aren't exactly binding, you know.

Re Stone Circle:
It costs so it's hard to have enough copper still in your hand to make it worth while. Even if you have enough silver you'd probably be better off buying a .

I'd say that depends on the board.

[herw]

I prefer the new colour scheme, but redoing all the cards seems annoying. Why did you also make the text box lighter?

perhaps you should get an impression of new grafic design here. Some cards are still changed in wording.

[AdrianHealey]

Cliffside's optional trashing almost makes me want it to cost $6. Have you considered that?

[Asper]

Cliffside's optional trashing almost makes me want it to cost $6. Have you considered that?

No, I didn't. I first wanted to make it mandatory, instead. I discarded that idea, because it meant the card would be dead later, when you actually need a Village. Now it's weaker than Junk Dealer early and better late. If it turns out to be too strong, here's what I'd do to fix it:

Cliffside Village, 5$, Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one:
+1 Action;
Trash a card from your hand

[Asper]

I prefer the new colour scheme, but redoing all the cards seems annoying. Why did you also make the text box lighter?

perhaps you should get an impression of new grafic design here. Some cards are still changed in wording.

For clarification, we talked over the Season cards over in the German forum, where the cards were translated into German and the changes you can see in the OP were applied. I thought about changing the color scheme, and well, it was decided to mock them up in the new one, over there. Not that it matters, functionally.