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WanderingWinder

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The Combo Deck
« on: January 03, 2013, 11:20:23 pm »
+4

This is my third in a series of articles on the five basic dominion deck types. This covers The Combo Deck, probably second-rarest of all, which rests between The Rush and Engine decks.

What Defines a Combo Deck?
A combo deck is a one that revolves entirely around a particular specific combo of 2+ different cards, generally getting 5-20 copies of the required cards in total. Once the combo is in place, if this has happened quickly enough, the deck should basically just win. This archetype does not deal with cards that work well together - i.e. it's not just decks that have combos in them, a la Horse Traders-Duke, which is a slog, or warehouse-treasure map, which works together well but isn't an entire deck, but rather deals with combos that are self-contained, the-entire-deck-and-gameplan-is-this strategies. Typically, these combos are fairly resistant to adding other cards in with them.
Usually, with more than two distinct cards, you are really talking about an engine, which is a bunch of good cards that work well together and draw a lot, but this is not a hard-and-fast rule. Even things like Hunting Party stacks and minion decks aren't combos - they're engines - that's just (strong) cards being used to cycle you through, which can sometimes be extremely powerful with few cards, but isn't a combo - there needs to also be some particular synergy, a sum-is-greater-than-the-parts, but particularly in such a way that goes beyond the normal functionality of a cards. For instance, something like Worker's Village and Rabble pair really nice together, as they give you actions, attack, buys, and draw - everything you need for an engine except money (well, maybe you would also like trashing and/or alt VP, but you generally don't need ALL that) - but this is clearly not a combo, it is an engine, and part of how you can tell is that the parts are really modular - you might lose a little bit of efficiency by switching to another kind of village or smithy variant, but generally those roles can be filled by a number of other cards. Something like Native Village/Bridge, on the other hand is very much a combo - it plays quite differently than other decks featuring these cards, and more important, you can't get the same kind of functionality out of any other cards - you can get bridge mega-turns in engines, to be sure, but nothing plays that same way.
Some examples of Combo Decks include (not an exhaustive list!):
  • The Native Village/Bridge deck
  • The Chancellor(or Scavenger)/Stash deck
  • The Golden Deck
  • The Counting House/Golem deck
  • The Apothecary/Native Village deck
  • Various forms of the Deck Deletion Pin deck
  • Some kind of KC/KC/Scheme/Scheme/Terminal Silver/Terminal Silver, though this probably isn't very good, even in the colony games it's designed for
  • Tactician/Vault

What's good for combos?
It really depends on the combo you're playing. Or... Combo pieces and/or ways of slowing opponents down to get your combo in place. But mostly combo pieces.

Interaction with Opponents
Don't. Well, have general tactical awareness, look for three pile ending possibilities. But largely, you're playing for your combo.

Matchups
Again, this is all dependent on what combo you're playing, but there are some general tips. Usually, there is some weakness of the combo. Usually this is an attack or type of attack - i.e. the golden deck is vulnerable to junkers and discards, chancellor(scavenger)/stash is very vulnerable to discard, scheme-based combos are vulnerable to minion, and if it's a large enough scheme chain, things like fortune teller. There are also other kinds of holes - for instance, combos which eventually attack the opponent into submission can be vulnerable to reactions - most forms of the Deck Deletion pin can be blocked by moat or horse traders. All deck deletion pins can get into a stalemate (or lose) if there is a massive lead for the opponent, in VP chips or on a mat somewhere, or there are drawing duration cards available. Native Village-based combos are extremely vulnerable to possession. So watch out for these things, know when they counter you, if they can be fast enough, etc. And know how to use them to counter combo decks if you are on the other side.

Combo decks are also in general vulnerable to not getting up and running in enough time. What 'enough time' is depends on the combo - a deck deletion pin is in time if it ever gets in before buying out the curses (or rarely, coppers; I suppose ruins as well now) can effectively be used to pile out the game with the win for its opponent, but others need enough expensive VP on the board, or at least 50% in many cases, to be available.
The biggest threat to making this happen is generally a strong, fast engine, as they can certainly outrace Combos, most normally if they have strong trashing to kick-start them. Rush decks also pose a serious threat in being able to finish things off too quickly for the combo to get in place.

Mirrors become strange things. Either it is a race to get the combo up first, which is a combination of 1st turn and luck, generally, with some skill on the order of the build, or very often it will end up in a 3-pile ending, where you want to build as long as you can so that you can cash out, but if you DO cash out too early, then this gives them a lot of time to build up for a bigger turn, and if you build too long, you run the risk of them three pile ending you. So the timing of when you pull the trigger, particularly if your combo is one that can go off as a matter of scale, is a huge skill in this kind of matchup. If the three pile ending is very likely, you need to watch out for defensive greening. Sometimes, a seemingly random duchy can be VERY good - it gives you the lead, will be good in the long run, and most importantly, it can stop your opponent from being able to buy more engine components, by utilizing the threat of that three pile ending.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 10:39:20 pm by WanderingWinder »
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dondon151

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2013, 11:57:50 pm »
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Do HP +X and Minion count? I'm a little confused by the archetype definition.
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Warrior

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2013, 02:31:36 am »
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Could I suggest adding Tactician/Vault to the list of combos?
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loppo

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2013, 03:07:30 am »
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there is also the KC + Scavenger + Silver/Platinum deck. You need two sets of theese and the kingscourted Scavenger puts your other set on top of your deck. This allows for a Provine/colony each turn. It also has some resilliance against discard attacks (exception: Minion)
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bozzball

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2013, 03:51:05 am »
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there is also the KC + Scavenger + Silver/Platinum deck. You need two sets of theese and the kingscourted Scavenger puts your other set on top of your deck. This allows for a Provine/colony each turn. It also has some resilliance against discard attacks (exception: Minion)

Seems like it would sputter if the KC or Scavenger ever end up being the 4th or 5th card in your hand. (Probability of occurrence = roughly 4 / (number of cards - 3))
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theory

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2013, 03:59:42 pm »
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Since I'm frontpaging this on Friday, what other killer combos can we add to the list?  It'd be nice to have a central list of super strong combos that people can refer to.  Right now I have:

The Native Village/Bridge deck
The Chancellor(or Scavenger)/Stash deck
The Golden Deck
The Counting House/Golem deck
The Apothecary/Native Village deck
Various forms of the Deck Deletion Pin deck
King's Court/King's Court/Scheme/Scheme + just about anything
Philosopher's Stone / Herbalist
Tactician/Vault
Black Market/Tactician

Do you think any should be removed?  For example I'm not so sure that the Tactician combos really belong, defining combo the way WW did (which eliminates things like Wharf/FG and Warehouse/Treasure Map?).
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philosophyguy

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2013, 04:07:27 pm »
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Agreed that the Tactician combos don't fit WW's definition. The key is that, once the combo activates, it's gg.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2013, 04:08:40 pm »
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King's Court/Bridge?
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Rabid

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 04:14:51 pm »
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Horn of Plenty Mega Turn.
Horn of Plenty plus Mandarin + platinum or Kingdom treasure.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 05:02:52 pm by Rabid »
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Robz888

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2013, 04:17:04 pm »
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Mint/Fool's Gold.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2013, 04:31:58 pm »
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FV-Torturer?
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2013, 04:34:53 pm »
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FV-Torturer?

I understand that the distinction is blurred, but this feels to me more like an ideal selection for an engine than a special combo.  The main thing it's missing is +buy.  Just like FV/Wharf is only missing an attack to slow your opponent.
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Qvist

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2013, 04:35:41 pm »
+1

Just for reference: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Combo
I didn't compare, but this also a sort of request to add Power Combos to the wiki so that we don't have to ask such questions and just can look it up.  ::)

jonts26

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2013, 04:44:50 pm »
+1

FV-Torturer?

I understand that the distinction is blurred, but this feels to me more like an ideal selection for an engine than a special combo.  The main thing it's missing is +buy.  Just like FV/Wharf is only missing an attack to slow your opponent.

FV/Wharf does not need anything to slow down your opponent. You'll speed right past as it is.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2013, 05:54:18 pm »
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Tactician ones are definitely on the edge/margin between combo and engine. The idea is that they play quite a bit different than engines, that's why I have them here, rather than there, but it's not a clear distinction. In terms of actual super strong ones that fit in this category (there are other combos like Horse Traders/Duke that don't really fit here), there aren't that many - even e.g. golem/counting house is quite weak. Probably Dark Ages gets more, but I can't really help you there. But things that fit in this category:
Bureaucrat pin with KCs.
Cutpurse Pin, usually needs minions.
The draw-trash-their-whole-deck-with-possession-thing.
Platinum/Gold/Silver/Copper/Horn Of Plenty/Mandarin (The colony/HoP/Mandarin Deck?)
There are a number of possibilities you can do with Inn where when you have enough actions, you never reshuffle. Some of the best are like Inn/Counting/House/Coppersmith/Worker's Village, and suck because they're terribly slow. The very best, though, is Inn/Goons, possibly with some extra actions to pad, which can gain LOTS of points buying coppers with absolute impunity. It's slow to get the 'golden' version of, but a not-quite-foolproof bit is not bad.
Ironworks/Highway is decently nasty, though it can get helped out a lot and is also borderline.
There's some stuff with Secret Chamber - particularly with scrying pool, though you really need a village and buys to actually make it good, and then you're looking at an engine. Same deal with crossroads.
Governor/Possession.
University/Vineyards and Ironworks/Vineyards. Can argue that this is on the side with rush.

I will try to think of more.

Robz888

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2013, 06:04:18 pm »
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TMap/Warehouse?
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sudgy

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2013, 06:07:25 pm »
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What about Chapel/Treasure Map?  When they're on the board, I usually get them both, trash everything but the treasure maps and in the end I only have 4 golds (or maybe more if I needed to), several provinces, and a chapel.
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Robz888

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2013, 06:09:12 pm »
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What about Chapel/Treasure Map?  When they're on the board, I usually get them both, trash everything but the treasure maps and in the end I only have 4 golds (or maybe more if I needed to), several provinces, and a chapel.

And then get Thief'd hardcore. It's like Thief's one moment in the sun.
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dondon151

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2013, 06:15:35 pm »
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Chapel/TM will lose to a lot of engines, probably...

It is good to use TMs to very quickly get a lot of economy, but I don't think you want to open Chapel/TM.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2013, 06:16:54 pm »
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Chapel/TM will lose to a lot of engines, probably...

It is good to use TMs to very quickly get a lot of economy, but I don't think you want to open Chapel/TM.
Everything loses to 'a lot of engines'. Just because it's a combo doesn't mean it's a good one.
Having said that, if there's a TM thing to vouch for, it's probably Haven.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 06:36:48 pm by WanderingWinder »
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dondon151

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2013, 06:23:55 pm »
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Uh, my point was that Chapel/TM is not a strong combo in and of itself. I think TM is an awesome addition to a slick deck, but we are already stepping out of 2-card-combo territory and into engine synergy.

In any case, I'm still confused by the archetype. Isn't this just basically "engines using cards that occupy their own niche" with an arbitrary restriction to how many cards you can use in the combo? Is it a prerequisite that the listed "combos" cannot be improved by adding any other card to the deck (and probably all of these can be improved in some way)? What prevents combos like Mint/FG and YW/Tunnel from making this list?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 06:33:27 pm by dondon151 »
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2013, 06:40:38 pm »
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Throne Room / Armory is pretty good with Treasure Map around.
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Qvist

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2013, 06:42:53 pm »
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Throne Room / Armory is pretty good with Treasure Map around.

Isn't connecting TR and Armory as hard as connecting TMs?

WanderingWinder

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2013, 06:49:26 pm »
+1

Uh, my point was that Chapel/TM is not a strong combo in and of itself. I think TM is an awesome addition to a slick deck, but we are already stepping out of 2-card-combo territory and into engine synergy.

In any case, I'm still confused by the archetype. Isn't this just basically "engines using cards that occupy their own niche" with an arbitrary restriction to how many cards you can use in the combo? Is it a prerequisite that the listed "combos" cannot be improved by adding any other card to the deck (and probably all of these can be improved in some way)? What prevents combos like Mint/FG and YW/Tunnel from making this list?
Heh, my previous post was written wrong - I meant to say that just because it's a combo doesn't mean it IS a good one - i.e. combos can actually be really lousy, usually because they take forever to get going reliably.

Anyways, as to the archetype, the combos aren't really like engines at all for the most part. I mean, something like Fishing Village/Torturer or FV/Wharf is just an engine, not a combo. And the things you mention are... well I guess you could call those combos, but they're (particularly in the case of YW/Tunnel) just big money decks. Those certainly aren't engines.

There isn't an arbitrary limit on the number of cards in the combo - 2 card syngergies don't have to be combo decks, and you can have up to every single card in your combo, potentially, only with an 8 card combo nobody is going to care.

The big thing about the combo deck that differentiates it form an engine is that engines are modular, whereas combos are very much not. Engines typically you have something that lets you play extra actions, something to draw you cards, and usually 'other stuff'. Definitely you're able to play lots of draw cards in a turn though. That's not so much the case for a combo deck. But the point about modularity is that you can't just swap cards out. Take Native Village/Bridge. You can't just swap out native village for another village - the whole thing falls apart. And you can't swap out bridge for another woodcutter. I mean, you sort of can, but then it's way way way way way worse, to the point that it's not even worth mentioning. There's absolutely no modularity. So okay, golden deck there is a little modularity, you can switch out your other trasher off chapel, though then you know it's already quite a bit weaker and usually you aren't play straight golden deck anymore, but bishop is absolutely essential, and there aren't many other trashers that work at all.

Most of the combos you can improve a little bit by adding other stuff, yeah, but the combo is still the focus of the deck. And most of all, if you can get the combo off in time, you're in enormous position to win. There is something of an unbreakability to them.

Oh, and yeah, Treasure Map/Chapel isn't a strong combo, but it is a weak one. I agree that it's not really a combo deck, because it's more like 'thinner/treasure map' - I mean, that's what treasure map is supposed to DO - but it's certainly not an engine.

SirPeebles

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Re: The Combo Deck
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2013, 06:51:11 pm »
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Throne Room / Armory is pretty good with Treasure Map around.

Isn't connecting TR and Armory as hard as connecting TMs?

Sure, but you can do other things with TR and Armory.  I wouldn't get them solely for TM.
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