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[eHalcyon]

Possession definitely feels like an attack when your opponent the player to your right plays one.

As for this "you aren't hurting them" business, you can easily hurt them by effectively skipping their key cards, setting up a bad shuffle, etc.  It's just that you can't do that every single time and it hurts some decks more than others.

You can hurt them on individual hands that way, but you can also help them by skipping a crap hand.  You don't hurt them on average, which is why it isn't an attack.  People just tend to remember the bad more than the good due to one of those psychological phenomena -- negativity bias, I think?

[GwinnR]

Possession definitely feels like an attack when your opponent the player to your right plays one.

As for this "you aren't hurting them" business, you can easily hurt them by effectively skipping their key cards, setting up a bad shuffle, etc.  It's just that you can't do that every single time and it hurts some decks more than others.

You can hurt them on individual hands that way, but you can also help them by skipping a crap hand.  You don't hurt them on average, which is why it isn't an attack.  People just tend to remember the bad more than the good due to one of those psychological phenomena -- negativity bias, I think?

I think maybe on averange, you hurt them. Of course you get averange hands, but you can do something with that hands, what he wouldn't do and don't wants you to do. Examples: Taking all good cards from Native Village-mat, passings good cards with Masquerade or Ambassador, using all coin tokens, put back bad cards with Courtyard, Count or Mandarin. This are nice things you can do with special cards, but as already said, you can also hurt him by triggering the reshuffle at a bad moment and so on.
I think why this isn't an attack is because hurting your opponent isn't the main-intention of this attack-like clause. It is more that you want gain cards, like with Outpost or Workshop.

[Awaclus]

Possession definitely feels like an attack when your opponent the player to your right plays one.

As for this "you aren't hurting them" business, you can easily hurt them by effectively skipping their key cards, setting up a bad shuffle, etc.  It's just that you can't do that every single time and it hurts some decks more than others.

You can hurt them on individual hands that way, but you can also help them by skipping a crap hand.  You don't hurt them on average, which is why it isn't an attack.  People just tend to remember the bad more than the good due to one of those psychological phenomena -- negativity bias, I think?

I think maybe on averange, you hurt them. Of course you get averange hands, but you can do something with that hands, what he wouldn't do and don't wants you to do. Examples: Taking all good cards from Native Village-mat, passings good cards with Masquerade or Ambassador, using all coin tokens, put back bad cards with Courtyard, Count or Mandarin. This are nice things you can do with special cards, but as already said, you can also hurt him by triggering the reshuffle at a bad moment and so on.

But in order to trigger the reshuffle at a bad moment, you still need special cards (such as Smithy). Against BMU, Possession helps the opponent on average (because cycling is good until the end game).

[achmed_sender]

Possession definitely feels like an attack when your opponent the player to your right plays one.

As for this "you aren't hurting them" business, you can easily hurt them by effectively skipping their key cards, setting up a bad shuffle, etc.  It's just that you can't do that every single time and it hurts some decks more than others.

You can hurt them on individual hands that way, but you can also help them by skipping a crap hand.  You don't hurt them on average, which is why it isn't an attack.  People just tend to remember the bad more than the good due to one of those psychological phenomena -- negativity bias, I think?

I think maybe on averange, you hurt them. Of course you get averange hands, but you can do something with that hands, what he wouldn't do and don't wants you to do. Examples: Taking all good cards from Native Village-mat, passings good cards with Masquerade or Ambassador, using all coin tokens, put back bad cards with Courtyard, Count or Mandarin. This are nice things you can do with special cards, but as already said, you can also hurt him by triggering the reshuffle at a bad moment and so on.

But in order to trigger the reshuffle at a bad moment, you still need special cards (such as Smithy). Against BMU, Possession helps the opponent on average (because cycling is good until the end game).

But I think, the main purpose of Possession is to play it in engines, so you can play it often enough. And in engines, triggering a reshuffle can cause 1 or 2 almost dead turns for your opponent.

[Awaclus]

Possession definitely feels like an attack when your opponent the player to your right plays one.

As for this "you aren't hurting them" business, you can easily hurt them by effectively skipping their key cards, setting up a bad shuffle, etc.  It's just that you can't do that every single time and it hurts some decks more than others.

You can hurt them on individual hands that way, but you can also help them by skipping a crap hand.  You don't hurt them on average, which is why it isn't an attack.  People just tend to remember the bad more than the good due to one of those psychological phenomena -- negativity bias, I think?

I think maybe on averange, you hurt them. Of course you get averange hands, but you can do something with that hands, what he wouldn't do and don't wants you to do. Examples: Taking all good cards from Native Village-mat, passings good cards with Masquerade or Ambassador, using all coin tokens, put back bad cards with Courtyard, Count or Mandarin. This are nice things you can do with special cards, but as already said, you can also hurt him by triggering the reshuffle at a bad moment and so on.

But in order to trigger the reshuffle at a bad moment, you still need special cards (such as Smithy). Against BMU, Possession helps the opponent on average (because cycling is good until the end game).

But I think, the main purpose of Possession is to play it in engines, so you can play it often enough. And in engines, triggering a reshuffle can cause 1 or 2 almost dead turns for your opponent.

But you still need the special cards to trigger the reshuffle.

[achmed_sender]

Possession definitely feels like an attack when your opponent the player to your right plays one.

As for this "you aren't hurting them" business, you can easily hurt them by effectively skipping their key cards, setting up a bad shuffle, etc.  It's just that you can't do that every single time and it hurts some decks more than others.

You can hurt them on individual hands that way, but you can also help them by skipping a crap hand.  You don't hurt them on average, which is why it isn't an attack.  People just tend to remember the bad more than the good due to one of those psychological phenomena -- negativity bias, I think?

I think maybe on averange, you hurt them. Of course you get averange hands, but you can do something with that hands, what he wouldn't do and don't wants you to do. Examples: Taking all good cards from Native Village-mat, passings good cards with Masquerade or Ambassador, using all coin tokens, put back bad cards with Courtyard, Count or Mandarin. This are nice things you can do with special cards, but as already said, you can also hurt him by triggering the reshuffle at a bad moment and so on.

But in order to trigger the reshuffle at a bad moment, you still need special cards (such as Smithy). Against BMU, Possession helps the opponent on average (because cycling is good until the end game).

But I think, the main purpose of Possession is to play it in engines, so you can play it often enough. And in engines, triggering a reshuffle can cause 1 or 2 almost dead turns for your opponent.

But you still need the special cards to trigger the reshuffle.

Yes, but more than 80% of the boards the is one card that can do that (it just need a +1 card), and I can't imagine an engine without cards that can trigger reshuffles 

[Awaclus]

Possession definitely feels like an attack when your opponent the player to your right plays one.

As for this "you aren't hurting them" business, you can easily hurt them by effectively skipping their key cards, setting up a bad shuffle, etc.  It's just that you can't do that every single time and it hurts some decks more than others.

You can hurt them on individual hands that way, but you can also help them by skipping a crap hand.  You don't hurt them on average, which is why it isn't an attack.  People just tend to remember the bad more than the good due to one of those psychological phenomena -- negativity bias, I think?

I think maybe on averange, you hurt them. Of course you get averange hands, but you can do something with that hands, what he wouldn't do and don't wants you to do. Examples: Taking all good cards from Native Village-mat, passings good cards with Masquerade or Ambassador, using all coin tokens, put back bad cards with Courtyard, Count or Mandarin. This are nice things you can do with special cards, but as already said, you can also hurt him by triggering the reshuffle at a bad moment and so on.

But in order to trigger the reshuffle at a bad moment, you still need special cards (such as Smithy). Against BMU, Possession helps the opponent on average (because cycling is good until the end game).

But I think, the main purpose of Possession is to play it in engines, so you can play it often enough. And in engines, triggering a reshuffle can cause 1 or 2 almost dead turns for your opponent.

But you still need the special cards to trigger the reshuffle.

Yes, but more than 80% of the boards the is one card that can do that (it just need a +1 card), and I can't imagine an engine without cards that can trigger reshuffles 

Possession doesn't harm the opponent in the absence of those cards. It's your opponents fault if he buys them against your Possession deck, not the Possession's fault.

[flies]

Possession doesn't harm the opponent in the absence of those cards. It's your opponents fault if he buys them against your Possession deck, not the Possession's fault.

I believe that this is the essence of why possession isn't an "attack card".  There are plenty of ways you can hurt your opponent while possessing them (spending coin tokens, etc.), so the intuition that it's an attack isn't merely a matter of remembering those turns where the possession took away a good hand and left you with a poor one. 

[SCSN]

Activating the same two Treasure Maps twice during the same turn, and playing 6 of the 8 gained Golds:

SheCantSayNo: turn 16
...
SheCantSayNo   plays Treasure Map
SheCantSayNo   trashes Treasure Map, Treasure Map
SheCantSayNo   gains Gold
SheCantSayNo   gains Gold
SheCantSayNo   gains Gold
SheCantSayNo   gains Gold
SheCantSayNo   plays City
SheCantSayNo   draws Gold, Gold
SheCantSayNo   plays City
SheCantSayNo   draws Gold, Gold
SheCantSayNo   plays City
SheCantSayNo   draws Gold, City
SheCantSayNo   plays City
SheCantSayNo   draws Wharf, Silver
SheCantSayNo   plays City
SheCantSayNo   draws Rogue, Silver
SheCantSayNo   plays Rogue
SheCantSayNo   gains Treasure Map
SheCantSayNo   plays Rogue
SheCantSayNo   gains Treasure Map
SheCantSayNo   plays Wharf
SheCantSayNo   shuffles deck
SheCantSayNo   draws Treasure Map, Treasure Map
SheCantSayNo   plays Treasure Map
SheCantSayNo   trashes Treasure Map, Treasure Map
SheCantSayNo   gains Gold
SheCantSayNo   gains Gold
SheCantSayNo   gains Gold
SheCantSayNo   gains Gold
SheCantSayNo   plays Wharf
SheCantSayNo   draws Gold, Gold

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131016/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1381962785813.txt

[SCSN]

SheCantSayNo: turn 19
...
SheCantSayNo   draws Scout, Copper, Crossroads, Vineyard, Scout

SheCantSayNo: turn 20
SheCantSayNo   plays Scout
SheCantSayNo   reveals: Crossroads, Noble Brigand, Silver, Vineyard
SheCantSayNo   places cards in hand: Vineyard
SheCantSayNo   places Silver on top of deck
SheCantSayNo   places Noble Brigand on top of deck
SheCantSayNo   places Crossroads on top of deck
SheCantSayNo   plays Crossroads
SheCantSayNo   reveals hand: Scout, Copper, Vineyard, Vineyard
SheCantSayNo   draws Crossroads, Noble Brigand
SheCantSayNo   plays Scout
SheCantSayNo   reveals: Silver, Trade Route, Vineyard, Silver
SheCantSayNo   places cards in hand: Vineyard
SheCantSayNo   places Silver on top of deck
SheCantSayNo   places Trade Route on top of deck
SheCantSayNo   places Silver on top of deck
SheCantSayNo   plays Crossroads
SheCantSayNo   reveals hand: Noble Brigand, Copper, Vineyard, Vineyard, Vineyard
SheCantSayNo   draws Silver, Trade Route, Silver
SheCantSayNo   plays Noble Brigand
Stef   reveals: Copper
Stef   shuffles deck
Stef   reveals: Secret Chamber
Stef   discards: Copper, Secret Chamber
SheCantSayNo   plays Trade Route
SheCantSayNo   trashes Copper
SheCantSayNo   plays 2 Silver
SheCantSayNo   buys Province
SheCantSayNo   gains Province

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131019/log.50b20dc3e4b0c9ce0cf27eb3.1382217998338.txt

[Robz888]

Ha! Very cool.

You really think you can defend those Scouts, instead of 2 more CRs, though? 

[SCSN]

I actually think I can: they make lining up Crossroads with victory cards quite a bit easier (7 cards to look at instead of 4) and give me some control over what cards I'd draw. Plus there's some nice synergy with Stef's Fortune Teller! I did end up with 7 Crossroads, so it's not exactly like I ignored them, but getting even more of them and no Scouts would lead to too many hands of multiple Crossroads and no victory cards.

And hey, how many chances do you get in your life to build a Scout-Crossroads engine and win?

Edit: and you can only play so many Crossroads, as they become terminals after the first one and you'd also like to still be able to play a Trade Route or Noble Brigand, while you can in principle play an infinite number of Scouts.

[GendoIkari]

while you can in principle play an infinite number of Scouts.

[KingZog3]

while you can in principle play an infinite number of Scouts.

Artistically I think it's very nice.

[Qvist]

Best Saboteur ever.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131114/log.50745d1a0cf28ed55d9d6498.1384442390329.txt


Turn 7:

gammler plays Saboteur
Qvist   trashes Familiar

Turn 12:

gammler plays Saboteur
Qvist   trashes Familiar

Turn 15:

gammler plays Saboteur
Qvist   trashes Familiar

[Awaclus]

Best Saboteur ever.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131114/log.50745d1a0cf28ed55d9d6498.1384442390329.txt


Turn 7:

gammler plays Saboteur
Qvist   trashes Familiar

Turn 12:

gammler plays Saboteur
Qvist   trashes Familiar

Turn 15:

gammler plays Saboteur
Qvist   trashes Familiar

The Saboteur wanted to stick to something familiar!

[michaeljb]

After the Curses were gone, I Apprentice'd my 2 Witches, drew the last 3 cards in my deck with Crossroads, then had $15 to spend with no +Buy:

michaeljb   buys Masterpiece
michaeljb   overpays for Masterpiece with 12 coins
michaeljb   gains Silver
michaeljb   applied Watchtower to place Silver on top of the deck
michaeljb   gains Silver
michaeljb   applied Watchtower to place Silver on top of the deck
michaeljb   gains Silver
michaeljb   applied Watchtower to place Silver on top of the deck
michaeljb   gains Silver
michaeljb   applied Watchtower to place Silver on top of the deck
michaeljb   gains Silver
michaeljb   gains Silver
michaeljb   gains Silver
michaeljb   gains Silver
michaeljb   gains Silver
michaeljb   gains Silver
michaeljb   gains Silver
michaeljb   gains Silver
michaeljb   gains Masterpiece
michaeljb   applied Watchtower to trash Masterpiece
michaeljb   trashes Masterpiece

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131202/log.50d8d344e4b0a9060471eca8.1386020696348.txt

[eHalcyon]

Any particularly reason why you only topdecked 4 instead of all 12, or 10 to guarantee the next two turns?

[AHoppy]

Any particularly reason why you only topdecked 4 instead of all 12, or 10 to guarantee the next two turns?

He wanted to reshuffle and 4 is enough for a province?

[michaeljb]

Any particularly reason why you only topdecked 4 instead of all 12, or 10 to guarantee the next two turns?

Given the contents of my deck, I figured I didn't need to (and I was in fact able to buy a Province every turn after the Masterpiece buy). Also Goko's interface for Watchtower is annoying.

[eHalcyon]

Any particularly reason why you only topdecked 4 instead of all 12, or 10 to guarantee the next two turns?

He wanted to reshuffle and 4 is enough for a province?

Well there isn't any +Buy in the kingdom at all, nor any attacks (after Curses were exhausted) so Province a turn is the best he could do.  He could guarantee it for the next two turns instead of just the next one.

I figured it was just the interface.

[ashersky]

Seriously, two buttons under the gaining card that say "Top of your Deck?" and "Trash?" is too hard?  I HATE dragging.

[AHoppy]

Any particularly reason why you only topdecked 4 instead of all 12, or 10 to guarantee the next two turns?

He wanted to reshuffle and 4 is enough for a province?

Well there isn't any +Buy in the kingdom at all, nor any attacks (after Curses were exhausted) so Province a turn is the best he could do.  He could guarantee it for the next two turns instead of just the next one.

I figured it was just the interface.

Got it.  I didn't actually look at the log   just him saying it was the last cards in his deck made me think that.  Plus, reshuffling now means the new province doesn't go in his deck, and with that many silvers, he should be able to get enough money, even if witch was the only draw.
I may or may not be BSing to give a reason that I didn't look at the log and to keep my explanation

[shark_bait]

Also Goko's interface for Watchtower is annoying.

This.

[Count Grishnakh]

I was playing against a guy in a pretty typical city game

he managed to get his hands on more cities than I did and we were both playing some pretty big turns

However I had two bridges in my deck and two smugglers

He was purchasing provinces more consistently than me (every turn) but with the help of bridge I was able to smuggle 6$ provinces, much to my delight and much to his chagrin

"that was bullshit" he said