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Author Topic: Exchange: a one-shot trash-for-benefit  (Read 2775 times)

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LastFootnote

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Exchange: a one-shot trash-for-benefit
« on: December 03, 2012, 12:25:02 am »
0

OK, so if you'd rather skip the long intro and skip down to the card, feel free to do so.

After some encouraging feedback, I'm planning on starting work on my second fan expansion, tentatively titled Dominion: Underground. Before that, though, I'm updating my first expansion, Dominion: Enterprise. I'm trying to bring it up to date after the release of Dark Ages, to tweak some of the cards that need tweaking, and to replace some of the more lackluster cards. To that end, I'm trying to replace Cathedral. It's too much like a super-Courtyard and encourages Big Money games a little bit more than I'm comfortable with.

Currently the set doesn't have a trash-for-benefit card, so I'm looking for something to fill that slot. Preferably a one-shot, $5-coster, trash-for-benefit card. To that end, I created Redistrict. After playtesting it and getting feedback from this community, I decided that it wasn't quite cutting it and I couldn't come up with a way to fix the issues it has. One of the issues I had with it is that it encourages you to trash your Action cards, rather than playing them. Sure, Graverobber does that, but in an interesting, fun way. So I wanted my next attempt at this type of card to be something that didn't potentially take up your whole turn and that let you play Actions.

Then it hit me. I'd always considered cards that could gain Action cards into hand to be a bad idea, with the potential to easily creating infinite loops of gaining. But if the card was a one-shot, that potential decreases significantly. So I give you this:

Quote
Exchange
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Trash this. Trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing up to $3 more than the it that is not an Exchange, putting the gained card into your hand.

So it's sort of like a non-terminal, one-shot Expand that puts the gained card into your hand, which actually makes it almost nothing like Expand. It often plays like Band of Misfits because you can choose to gain whatever benefits you most for your current hand. If you already have a terminal Action in your hand, for instance, you can gain a cantrip, village, or Treasure. If you have a couple of Curses or Estates in your hand, trash a Copper, gain a Steward, and trash them.

Anyhow, criticism is always appreciated. Please let me know what you think. Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 12:31:35 am by LastFootnote »
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Bron

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Re: Exchange: a one-shot trash-for-benefit
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2012, 10:34:41 am »
+1

I think that it is a nice idea, but the main problem that I think it will have is the cost, but of course playtestng can prove me totally wrong. Here is my reasoning.

trashing a good card: You are trashing $5 card and $x card to gain $x+3 card to replace that $x card in hand so still reduces your hand size (but that is ok). So you have overpaid yor card by $2 - why would you do that?
   - to split the cost into lower costs, but that holds only if you are gaining card costing at least $6 (otherwise you could have just bought that card instead of Exchange) but often it is only gold.
   - to postpone your decision about what you want ... well this feels little anti-strategic
   - later flexibility of the deck + mitigating bad shuffle luck ... this doesn't seem to be strong enough for $5 card

trashing a junk: well this seems unreliable and too slow.

The thing is that even though I think that the cost $5 is too high I suspect that $4 can be too low, yet having such one shot expand as a possible opener seems nice. Maybe you can also try weaker and cheaper card - so it will be "faster".

Exchange
Types: Action
Cost: $3 ($4)
+1 Action. Trash this. Trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing up to $2 more than it that is not an Exchange, putting the gained card into your hand.

I look forward to the second version of your expansion.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Exchange: a one-shot trash-for-benefit
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2012, 11:08:26 am »
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Hmm, good points, Bron. Thanks for the feedback!

If the current version appears weak after further playtesting, I'll definitely consider making changes. It would be...convenient...if it were to cost $5, though. How does this version strike you?

Quote
Exchange
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Trash this. Trash 2 cards from your hand. For each trashed card, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it, putting the gained cards into your hand.

It basically just takes your idea and doubles it.
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Qvist

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Re: Exchange: a one-shot trash-for-benefit
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2012, 11:36:13 am »
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Interesting idea.

I agree with Bron on some level but it can be pretty powerful. Open 5/2 with Exchange/nothing and hope to draw it again in a hand with 3 Estates in Turn 3. You can trash now all 3 Estates and one Copper becomes a Silver which you can even use for a $2 cost card. And it can pretty handy otherwise, especially with on trash effects. A hand of Exchange+Fortress could empty the Exchange pile.

LastFootnote

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Re: Exchange: a one-shot trash-for-benefit
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2012, 01:32:09 pm »
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I agree with Bron on some level but it can be pretty powerful. Open 5/2 with Exchange/nothing and hope to draw it again in a hand with 3 Estates in Turn 3. You can trash now all 3 Estates and one Copper becomes a Silver which you can even use for a $2 cost card. And it can pretty handy otherwise, especially with on trash effects. A hand of Exchange+Fortress could empty the Exchange pile.

Actually, Exchange can't gain other Exchanges. I put that clause in there specifically to avoid situations where you could run out the entire pile in one turn.
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Qvist

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Re: Exchange: a one-shot trash-for-benefit
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2012, 01:34:52 pm »
+1

Oh, I somehow didn't saw that clause. Maybe you should let it out because this is what makes the card more interesting.
But now it seems pretty weak. Maybe if you add: "You might gain a card costing up to $3" or "You might gain a Silver".

Bron

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Re: Exchange: a one-shot trash-for-benefit
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2012, 02:33:32 pm »
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Hmm, good points, Bron. Thanks for the feedback!

If the current version appears weak after further playtesting, I'll definitely consider making changes. It would be...convenient...if it were to cost $5, though. How does this version strike you?

Quote
Exchange
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Trash this. Trash 2 cards from your hand. For each trashed card, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it, putting the gained cards into your hand.

It basically just takes your idea and doubles it.

I like it. One feature to be aware of, while playtesting, is that you can with little opportunity cost trash province and gain province, thus speeding the game when you are ahead. Ok you can do it even with the first version, but the opportunity cost seems much higher; and also there are other cards that allow this (Salvager, Remodel) but those are terminals.

Oh, I somehow didn't saw that clause. Maybe you should let it out because this is what makes the card more interesting.
But now it seems pretty weak. Maybe if you add: "You might gain a card costing up to $3" or "You might gain a Silver".

This is also interesting, you mean gain, or gain in hand?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Exchange: a one-shot trash-for-benefit
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2012, 07:15:19 pm »
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Oh, I somehow didn't saw that clause. Maybe you should let it out because this is what makes the card more interesting.
But now it seems pretty weak. Maybe if you add: "You might gain a card costing up to $3" or "You might gain a Silver".

I might be misunderstanding you, but what you're suggesting is to add a gain in addition to the one you get for trashing a card, right?

One feature to be aware of, while playtesting, is that you can with little opportunity cost trash province and gain province, thus speeding the game when you are ahead. Ok you can do it even with the first version, but the opportunity cost seems much higher; and also there are other cards that allow this (Salvager, Remodel) but those are terminals.

Yeah, I'd considered that. But as you say, the opportunity cost is high for the original version of the card.

I also just realized that my version of the card that trashes two cards and gains cards costing $2 more into hand could potentially allow you to activate Treasure Maps on turn 3. I'll have to think about whether that's a dealbreaker.
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jamespotter

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Re: Exchange: a one-shot trash-for-benefit
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2012, 10:29:51 pm »
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I also just realized that my version of the card that trashes two cards and gains cards costing $2 more into hand could potentially allow you to activate Treasure Maps on turn 3. I'll have to think about whether that's a dealbreaker.
The Quick Fix: add a "differently named card" clause to avoid a few OP combos.
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Qvist

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Re: Exchange: a one-shot trash-for-benefit
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2012, 02:18:38 am »
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Oh, I somehow didn't saw that clause. Maybe you should let it out because this is what makes the card more interesting.
But now it seems pretty weak. Maybe if you add: "You might gain a card costing up to $3" or "You might gain a Silver".

I might be misunderstanding you, but what you're suggesting is to add a gain in addition to the one you get for trashing a card, right?

Yeah, in addition. Gain the card costing $3 more in hand and a Silver in the discard pile.
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