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LastFootnote

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Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« on: March 31, 2012, 07:17:31 pm »
+65

Over four years in the making (so far), here is the current form of my Enterprise expansion. It is designed to be a 300-card set, containing 25 Kingdom cards and at least one ancillary card. Right now it's in a bit of a state of flux, since I haven't gotten as much testing it as I would like to. This is what it looks like now, though, for some values of "now".

Its main theme is "effects with limited uses". This means there are a few one-shots and a few optional one-shots (à la Mining Village). The set also introduces Trade tokens, which you usually get when you gain a card and can use to boost that card when you play it. There are a few other cards that approach the concept of a one-shot in a creative way. Finally, there's a Treasures subtheme and a few off-theme cards.

The number of stars after each card name indicates how much testing the card has gotten. More black stars = more testing. Generally if a card has a bunch of stars, I'm happy with it or I would have scrapped it by now. Cards with more white stars need much more testing before I can make a judgment.

Kingdom Cards


Quote
Redistrict: Action, $0  ★★★☆☆
Choose a card in your hand. Trash it and gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it. You may trash this. If you do, gain a card costing exactly $2 more than the chosen card.


Quote
Auction: Treasure–Reaction, $2  ★★★☆☆
+1 Buy
When you play this, discard your hand. Worth $1 per card discarded.

When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this and another Treasure, to gain a Gold.


Quote
Jubilee: Action, $2  ★★★★☆
+2 Actions
+$2
You may pay a Trade token. If you don't, set this aside, and return it to the Supply at the start of Clean-up.

When you gain this, take a Trade token.


Quote
Wanderer: Action, $2  ★★☆☆☆
+4 Cards
The player to your left gains this.

When you buy this, put your deck into your discard pile.


Quote
Charlatan: Action–Attack–Duration, $3  ★★☆☆☆
+1 Action
Now and at the start of your next turn, +$1. Until your next turn, each other player must use all of their Buys during their Buy phase.


Quote
Convoy: Action, $3  ★★☆☆☆
+3 Cards
Discard a card. You may pay a Trade token, to play this again.

When you gain this, take a Trade token.


Quote
Floodgate: Victory, $3  ★★★★☆
Worth 2 VP.

When you gain this, set it aside along with up to 4 cards from your hand. At the start of your next turn, put all the set-aside cards into your hand.


Quote
Gambler: Action, $3  ★★★★★
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look at the top card of your deck and choose one: Trash that card; or put that card into your hand and trash this.


Quote
Tinker: Action, $3  ★★★☆☆
+$1
Trash 2 cards from your hand. You may pay a Trade token, to gain a card costing up to their total cost.

When you gain this, take a Trade token.


Quote
Dignitary: Action–Reaction, $4  ★★★☆☆
+2 Cards
+$2
Put 2 cards from your hand onto your deck.

When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this, to trash a card from your hand, then draw 2 cards.


Quote
Profiteer: Action, $4  ★★☆☆☆
Gain a Gold onto your deck. Each other player gains an Armament from the Armament pile.


Quote
Stockpile: Treasure, $4  ★★★☆☆
Worth $1
When you play this, you may pay a Trade token, to gain a copy of a card you have in play. Otherwise, take a Trade token.


Quote
Terrace: Action, $4  ★★★★☆
+1 Card
+2 Actions
You may pay a Trade token, to discard your hand and draw 5 Cards.

When you gain this, take a Trade token.


Quote
Almoner: Action, $5  ★★★★☆
Discard any number of cards, then draw until you have 7 cards in hand. Each other player may gain a Copper to their hand.


Quote
Bladesmith: Action, $5  ★★★☆☆
Gain an Armament from the Armament pile to your hand.


Quote
Conclave: Action, $5  ★★★☆☆
+1 Action
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. From those cards, put an Action card, a Treasure, and a Victory card into your hand. Put the rest back in any order.


Quote
Fund: Treasure, $5  ★★★☆☆
Worth $2
+1 Buy
When you play this, you may trash it, to gain a Silver to your hand.


Quote
General: Action, $5  ★★★☆☆
You may play an Action card from your hand twice. When you discard that card from play, you may put it onto your deck.


Quote
Harbor: Action, $5  ★★★☆☆
Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Put any number of them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. +$1 per card you put back.


Quote
Vendor: Action, $5  ★★☆☆☆
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
Look through your discard pile. You may pay a token, to put a card from it into your hand.

When you gain this, take a Trade token.


Quote
Study: Action–Duration, $6  ★☆☆☆☆
+$3
During your next turn, when you play an Action card, first draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

Ancillary (Non-Kingdom) Cards


Quote
Armament: Treasure–Attack, $4*  ★★★☆☆
Worth $2
When you play this, if you have another Attack card in play, return this to the Armament pile and each other player gains a Curse.
(This is not in the Supply.)

Outtakes
These cards don't fit into Enterprise anymore, but most of them were balanced and all had their fans. A version of Conclave was cut for balanced reasons, and the tweaked version is here since I haven't tested it myself yet.


Quote
Mill Town: Action, $3  ★★★★☆
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Discard a card. You may reveal your hand, to gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper in your hand.
Quote
Refurbish: Action, $4  ★★★☆☆
+1 Buy
You may trash a card from your hand to gain a Silver.

While this is in play, Silver produces an extra $1.
Quote
Barter: Action, $5  ★★★☆☆
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more than it. You may pay a Trade token to put the gained card into your hand.

When you buy this, take a Trade token per Silver you have in play.

Phew, that's all the cards. Again, I'd like to thank rinkworks for his encouragement during this set's first few baby steps. My, how far we've come. I'd like to thank lympi for helping me learn how to mock up card images. I'd especially like to thank those of you who have playtested my cards and given me feedback. This set would not be as good as it is today without you! I will continue to strive to improve it.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 12:27:01 am by LastFootnote »
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Tejayes

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2012, 11:55:38 pm »
+1

So far, these look really good, LastFootnote. I especially like going through the changes made with each card from your earlier thread, from the relatively minor (bumping Mill Town's Copper requirement from 2 to 3) to the major (basically mutating Prospector into Surveyor). I only have a few questions about some of the cards:

Quote
Surveyor
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. You may reveal then discard a card from your hand that is not a Victory card. If you do, trash this and gain a copy of the revealed card.

I'm guessing that since this is basically the newest card in your set, it hasn't had as much playtesting as the others. Is this true? Either way, what has your testing shown about opening with Surveyor. I would guess that unless you want to gain lots of Caravans or some other spammable $4, you'd want to wait to use the one-shot Mint-that-works-on-most-Actions-but-not-Harems until you draw a spammable expensive card like Grand Market or King's Court. I'd still rather open with this than Prospector, though.

Quote
Aqueduct
Types: Victory
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.
When you gain this, reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. Discard the revealed Victory and Curse cards and put the rest back on top in any order.

In your previous thread, you mentioned your apprehension about this card's interaction with Ironworks. I actually like that interaction, since you can basically choose what to draw when you use IW to gain Aqueduct, assuming Aqueduct's effect resolves before Ironwork's bonus. What I don't like is how dual-type cards like Nobles and Harem are discarded as well. Have you tried a Farming Village-like wording, such as "Discard the revealed cards that are not Actions or Treasures, then put the rest back on top in any order" or "Put the revealed Action and Treasure cards back on top in any order, then discard the rest"?

Quote
Mercenary
Types: Action - Attack
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. You may discard a Treasure card from your hand. If you don't, trash this card. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards from his deck, discarding one that you choose and putting the other back on top.

I have nothing to say about the card itself, which I like. My question is, is that Guts from Berserk depicted in the image?

Quote
Monopoly
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$2. Trash this card. Name a Kingdom card. Each other player reveals then discards the top 4 cards from his deck. If the named card is revealed, gain a Gold, putting it on top of your deck.
When you buy this, trash a Kingdom card from the Supply.

I'm debating whether this should be labeled as an Attack, since it now affects all other players instead of just the player to the left (a key reason why Possession and Tribute are not Attacks). Then again, it's a one-shot effect, and it doesn't leave junk on top like Rabble or Fortune Teller.

Quote
Barracks
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Choose one: +2 Actions; or reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Attack card, discard the other cards, then play the Attack card.
When you gain this, gain a Conscripts card.

Conscripts
Types: Action - Attack
Cost: $0*
+$2. Trash this card. Each other player gains a Curse, putting it in his hand. (This is not in the Supply.)

Yeah, without other Attacks available, I wouldn't like this as an IGG-like card. For one, IGG always helps toward buying IGGs or Duchies, especially when you have more than one in hand. The problem with Barracks in the same situation is three-fold: if you have more than one Barracks and only one Conscripts left, all but one of the Barracks are useless unless you have a good drawer; if you have just the one Barracks/Conscripts and you draw both in the same hand, Barracks is once again useless; and once all Conscripts are used, the Barracks are just super-weak Villages, which I see as worse than IGG's "weak Silver" effect, especially with Gardens in play. I still like this with other good attacks in play, though.

Quote
Tax Collector
Types: Action - Attack
Cost: $6
+1 Buy. +2 Coins. Each other player with at least 5 cards in hand trashes a card from his hand costing 2 Coins or more (or reveals a hand with no such cards). He may gain a card costing less than it.

Have you tested this against Goons? Both are $6 Woodcutters with Attacks, and I agree that Tax Collector's attack is stronger than Goons' for the most part. However, the real meat of Goons is the +VP with each Buy. I would guess that in games without good +Actions or any way to play more than one Goons at a time, Tax Collector might often be stronger. With the ability to multi-Goons, though, I doubt the efficacy of Tax Collector other than as a way to thwart some mega-Goons hands. Let us know what Goons vs. Tax Collector is like, please.
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timchen

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2012, 01:29:37 am »
+4

Very polished cards and very nice graphics too! I like mill town and barracks in particular.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2012, 02:22:34 am »
+2

Quote
Monopoly
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$2. Trash this card. Name a Kingdom card. Each other player reveals then discards the top 4 cards from his deck. If the named card is revealed, gain a Gold, putting it on top of your deck.
When you buy this, trash a Kingdom card from the Supply.

I'm debating whether this should be labeled as an Attack, since it now affects all other players instead of just the player to the left (a key reason why Possession and Tribute are not Attacks). Then again, it's a one-shot effect, and it doesn't leave junk on top like Rabble or Fortune Teller.

Well, Possession technically doesn't hurt the other player because they still get their turn, and Tribute doesn't hurt either because it's just as likely that you're clearing junk from the top of their deck as you are to be discarding good stuff.  Likewise with this card -- it's not an Attack.  Affecting all other players does not make it an attack -- consider Masquerade, which affects all players as well.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2012, 03:02:08 am »
+1

Quote
Surveyor
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+2 Cards. You may reveal then discard a card from your hand that is not a Victory card. If you do, trash this and gain a copy of the revealed card.

I'm guessing that since this is basically the newest card in your set, it hasn't had as much playtesting as the others. Is this true? Either way, what has your testing shown about opening with Surveyor. I would guess that unless you want to gain lots of Caravans or some other spammable $4, you'd want to wait to use the one-shot Mint-that-works-on-most-Actions-but-not-Harems until you draw a spammable expensive card like Grand Market or King's Court. I'd still rather open with this than Prospector, though.

Well, Gambler, which is a mutated and much simplified form of Tinker, is technically newer than Surveyor. But yeah, Surveyor is pretty recent. Prospector actually went through a huge number of wacky iterations before it became Surveyor. At one point it was, "+2 Cards. You may reveal your hand. If the total cost of the revealed cards is exactly $7, trash this and gain 2 Golds." I definitely like Surveyor better than any iteration of Prospector, though. It's harsh, but flexible.

Anyhow, as far as openings go, Surveyor hasn't been awful. I wouldn't open with it if, say, Militia were available, but the card draw gives you a bit of a buying power boost until you can trash it for something awesome. Actually, since I posted this thread I played an Alchemy game where I opened Surveyor/Potion. It was good enough to get me to $3P for my first Familiar on turn 3 or 4. Later in the game (but still pretty early), I played a Surveyor and had a Philosopher's Stone in hand. Long story short, Surveyor is great for accumulating Philosopher's Stones because you don't mind discarding them early in the game and it's fantastic having a bunch in the late game. I got two extra Stones that way.

Quote
Quote
Aqueduct
Types: Victory
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.
When you gain this, reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. Discard the revealed Victory and Curse cards and put the rest back on top in any order.

In your previous thread, you mentioned your apprehension about this card's interaction with Ironworks. I actually like that interaction, since you can basically choose what to draw when you use IW to gain Aqueduct, assuming Aqueduct's effect resolves before Ironwork's bonus. What I don't like is how dual-type cards like Nobles and Harem are discarded as well. Have you tried a Farming Village-like wording, such as "Discard the revealed cards that are not Actions or Treasures, then put the rest back on top in any order" or "Put the revealed Action and Treasure cards back on top in any order, then discard the rest"?

I decided that I liked the Ironworks interaction too, and that it wouldn't slow things down too much. So the ability will stay on-gain!

As far as the wording of the card, I was definitely conscious that it discarded dual-type Victory cards when I designed it, but I honestly couldn't tell you why I decided to go with that wording anyway. I like your "Put the revealed Action and Treasure cards back on top in any order, then discard the rest" wording and I do believe I'll try that version out. Aqueduct hasn't gotten that much play in our test games yet, so it could use the boost.

Quote
Quote
Mercenary
Types: Action - Attack
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. You may discard a Treasure card from your hand. If you don't, trash this card. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards from his deck, discarding one that you choose and putting the other back on top.

I have nothing to say about the card itself, which I like. My question is, is that Guts from Berserk depicted in the image?

Yes, yes it is. I haven't seen the Berserk anime for many years, but as soon as the image came up in my search, I thought, "That's perfect!"

Quote
Quote
Monopoly
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$2. Trash this card. Name a Kingdom card. Each other player reveals then discards the top 4 cards from his deck. If the named card is revealed, gain a Gold, putting it on top of your deck.
When you buy this, trash a Kingdom card from the Supply.

I'm debating whether this should be labeled as an Attack, since it now affects all other players instead of just the player to the left (a key reason why Possession and Tribute are not Attacks). Then again, it's a one-shot effect, and it doesn't leave junk on top like Rabble or Fortune Teller.

Yeah, like eHalcyon said, I didn't make it an Attack because it doesn't hurt the other players on average. Several iterations of the card did just work on the player to your left, but I think it'll get more play this way. In 2-player games, it's useful when your opponent is buying up most of one card, like Minion, Caravan, or Gardens. I figure that in multi-plalyer games, it'll be useful when all of your opponents open with the same card. Time will tell.

Quote
Quote
Barracks
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Choose one: +2 Actions; or reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Attack card, discard the other cards, then play the Attack card.
When you gain this, gain a Conscripts card.

Conscripts
Types: Action - Attack
Cost: $0*
+$2. Trash this card. Each other player gains a Curse, putting it in his hand. (This is not in the Supply.)

Yeah, without other Attacks available, I wouldn't like this as an IGG-like card. For one, IGG always helps toward buying IGGs or Duchies, especially when you have more than one in hand. The problem with Barracks in the same situation is three-fold: if you have more than one Barracks and only one Conscripts left, all but one of the Barracks are useless unless you have a good drawer; if you have just the one Barracks/Conscripts and you draw both in the same hand, Barracks is once again useless; and once all Conscripts are used, the Barracks are just super-weak Villages, which I see as worse than IGG's "weak Silver" effect, especially with Gardens in play. I still like this with other good attacks in play, though.

I agree with everything you said. I kind of like that it's a reliable Curse effect that you nevertheless may not want to use until the Curses run out. The +2 Actions effect is very weak, but the dig-for-an-Attack effect is quite strong, and I felt like it needed some usage for games with no other Attacks. It used to be +1 Card/+2 Actions until I realized that an unscrupulous player could, in theory, glance at the top card of their deck as they picked it up and then decide whether they were drawing or revealing it. I had it at +2 Actions/+$1 for a while on paper, but the version here is the only one that's actually been playtested so far. I had guessed that the +2 Actions/+1 Coin would be too powerful, but I should probably test it at some point.

Quote
Quote
Tax Collector
Types: Action - Attack
Cost: $6
+1 Buy. +2 Coins. Each other player with at least 5 cards in hand trashes a card from his hand costing 2 Coins or more (or reveals a hand with no such cards). He may gain a card costing less than it.

Have you tested this against Goons? Both are $6 Woodcutters with Attacks, and I agree that Tax Collector's attack is stronger than Goons' for the most part. However, the real meat of Goons is the +VP with each Buy. I would guess that in games without good +Actions or any way to play more than one Goons at a time, Tax Collector might often be stronger. With the ability to multi-Goons, though, I doubt the efficacy of Tax Collector other than as a way to thwart some mega-Goons hands. Let us know what Goons vs. Tax Collector is like, please.

I have yet to play a game with both cards, but I will do so and let you know how it goes. Regardless of how they stack up in a direct confrontation, I really hope Tax Collector isn't as strong as Goons in general. I priced Tax Collector at $6 partly because of its power and partly so that you could never open with it. I've found that it needs a long game in order for it to stop being a liability and start doing some real damage. It seems to work better in conjunction with cursing attacks, for instance.

Thanks for your questions and feedback!
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dor

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2012, 04:40:36 am »
+1

Great cards and lovely artwork! I wish this was an official expansion.
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Kenuru

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2012, 05:30:12 am »
+9

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2012, 07:53:59 am »
+2

Great cards and lovely artwork! I wish this was an official expansion.
Yeah, the artwork is spectacular and the cards are very interesting!
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Thanar

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2012, 01:34:55 pm »
+1

This is an interesting and great-looking expansion. Do you have any higher resolution images and/or 9-up PDFs ready for printing? I'd love to print out a set of these.
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MrZNF

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2012, 01:38:51 pm »
+1

Is Mercenary really that strong? If I look at it, it seems like a worse version of Spice Merchant, since it discards the coppers instead of trashing them. Only plus being that it first draws and then you have more cards to choose from (thus more chance of there being coppers instead of silvers). Other + is obviously that you can't dead draw it, but if you have to trash it afterwards that doesn't seem like a very nice way to go.

Looking at what happens, it's either just a cantrip if you discard the copper (so it possibly makes your hand a little better) or you lose the Mercenary.

I'm not saying it's a bad card, it possibly has nice synergies with other cards, but I am not quite getting why it would be so strong.
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Davio

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2012, 01:47:08 pm »
+1

Well, he says it's a powerful $4 card. That's different from saying it's a powerful card.

Spy is also $4 and this seems a lot better than Spy to me.
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MrZNF

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2012, 02:15:54 pm »
+1

Well, he says it's a powerful $4 card. That's different from saying it's a powerful card.

Spy is also $4 and this seems a lot better than Spy to me.

Well, I am saying that I don't see it as a very powerful $4 card, but then again, I have not play tested it and might be missing something vital. For now I'd prefer a Caravan, Moneylender, SpiceMerchant, Militia, etc. over this one. Basically it means I wouldn't start with this card for my first $4 buy (on a 3/4 split) even if there are no other good $4's. I'd rather start silver/silver.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2012, 02:37:17 pm »
+1

Great cards and lovely artwork! I wish this was an official expansion.

Yeah, the artwork is spectacular and the cards are very interesting!

Thanks! Although I obviously can't take credit for the artwork. I wish I could have found out the artists for every image, but a couple of them still elude me. Does anybody know who created the Cathedral image?

This is an interesting and great-looking expansion. Do you have any higher resolution images and/or 9-up PDFs ready for printing? I'd love to print out a set of these.

Thanks for your interest! I do have versions of these cards with twice the resolution that you see here. I'll post them to my photobucket and provide a link tomorrow. If you do end up printing them, please let me know about your experiences with them. The more playtesting, the better these cards will end up being.

Is Mercenary really that strong? If I look at it, it seems like a worse version of Spice Merchant, since it discards the coppers instead of trashing them. Only plus being that it first draws and then you have more cards to choose from (thus more chance of there being coppers instead of silvers). Other + is obviously that you can't dead draw it, but if you have to trash it afterwards that doesn't seem like a very nice way to go.

Looking at what happens, it's either just a cantrip if you discard the copper (so it possibly makes your hand a little better) or you lose the Mercenary.

I'm not saying it's a bad card, it possibly has nice synergies with other cards, but I am not quite getting why it would be so strong.

Well, he says it's a powerful $4 card. That's different from saying it's a powerful card.

Spy is also $4 and this seems a lot better than Spy to me.

Well, I am saying that I don't see it as a very powerful $4 card, but then again, I have not play tested it and might be missing something vital. For now I'd prefer a Caravan, Moneylender, SpiceMerchant, Militia, etc. over this one. Basically it means I wouldn't start with this card for my first $4 buy (on a 3/4 split) even if there are no other good $4's. I'd rather start silver/silver.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that it's a super-powerful $4 card. If it were that powerful, I'd nerf it or bump its cost to $5. Gerenally, though, its power is that even though it doesn't usually increase your handsize, it provides as much deck cycling as a Laboratory. It allows you to build fairly effective Conspirator and Minion type decks without trashing your Coppers. It's slightly better than Spy in this regard.

Also, you're right about not opening with it. To be fair, though, there aren't a lot of non-terminal cards I'd open with, especially at $4. A Mercenary/Swindler opening is the big exception I've found so far. Mercenary makes it really easy to zero in on those Coppers!
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2012, 03:00:00 pm »
+1

I love the way you've handled this one-shot theme. Having most one-shots be optional or avoidable is an interesting risk to the game and is a wonderful bit of decision making.

I might say Clerk's Action is a bit too good for $2. You get the best of 3 cards and an extra $1 on the side. I might remove the $1 or lower the number of cards that are revealed.

I like Gambler-- though would probably prefer the name refer to the Gambling Hall rather than the man doing the gambling. That's semantics though. Mechanically, its effect is cute as a trasher, but it sucks as a drawer since it is a one-shot. I probably wouldn't buy it unless I wanted its trashing effects or had an extra buy and didn't need more Silver.

I'm a big fan of this one, but Mill Town might run faster if you "reveal 3 or more Coppers from your hand and gain a card costing up to the number of Coppers revealed" since we wouldn't be stuck in the awkward analysis-paralysis of trying not to reveal too many or too few Coppers. Why can't Mill Town gain a card that costs $2, anyway?

Surveyer is okay. +2 Cards I've always found to be a weak, nearly useless effect thrown onto cards with stronger alternate effects-- and that seems to be the case here. I'm pretty unimpressed by this card overall though. I wouldn't usually buy it-- even with a spare $3 unless there was a really good $6 Action in play that I wanted more than one of.

The price decerement supplied by Fund would rarely be worth anything. The best thing about Bridge is decreasing the price of what you want to buy to nothing so that you are limited by your buys rather than your coins, but Fund can only decrease prices by $1 on its own (which is to say, it would only be worthwhile if Bridges and Highways were in play). I'd only maybe buy one if I needed a Silver and had $4, but I can't think of any scenarios that Fund's effect would be anywhere near as useful as Bridge's or Highway's.

Monopoly sounds like one of those luck-based Kingdom Cards I would veto constantly. Its ability to trash cards from the Supply is something I'd like to play with though...

Barracks might be more useful if Conscripts wasn't gained, but could be purchased while Barracks was in play (and perhaps Conscripts are returned to their Supply instead of being trashed). As it is, I wouldn't pay $5 for Barracks unless a different, better Attack was in play. And now that I think about it, adding a +$1 to it might not be all that bad. Imagine a Market without a +Card... yeah, it has +$2 instead and is called Festival.

Well, he says [Mercenary]'s a powerful $4 card. That's different from saying it's a powerful card.

Spy is also $4 and this seems a lot better than Spy to me.
Spy can affect the top of your deck which I usually found to be the most beneficial thing it can do (especially with other cantrips in play). Affecting others was just a little bonus. Mercenary only affects other's decks and is trashed if you don't discard one of those Treasures that you could otherwise use.
It looks to me like a weaker Stables with a Spy-like effect thrown on top.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2012, 03:57:31 pm »
+1

I might say Clerk's Action is a bit too good for $2. You get the best of 3 cards and an extra $1 on the side. I might remove the $1 or lower the number of cards that are revealed.

I agree that the Action effect might be a touch too powerful. I might nerf it back down to looking at the top 2 cards of your deck rather than the top 3. The thing is that the reaction effect is useful, but slow. I wanted to give the action effect a bit more kick to compensate. At one time the reaction effect trashed down to 3 cards in hand, but I thought that would be too constricting. If there were some concise way to word Clerk such that upon revealing it you were allowed to trash any number of cards from your hand as long as you didn't dip below 3 cards in hand, I would go for that.

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I like Gambler-- though would probably prefer the name refer to the Gambling Hall rather than the man doing the gambling. That's semantics though. Mechanically, its effect is cute as a trasher, but it sucks as a drawer since it is a one-shot. I probably wouldn't buy it unless I wanted its trashing effects or had an extra buy and didn't need more Silver.

Yeah, the drawing effect is definitely meant to be the consolation prize. A one-shot Laboratory is a terrible investment. Gambler is first and foremost a deck thinner. To say that you probably wouldn't buy it unless you wanted its trashing effects is completely reasonable, but I'd argue that you'd want its trashing effects in most decks.

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I'm a big fan of this one, but Mill Town might run faster if you "reveal 3 or more Coppers from your hand and gain a card costing up to the number of Coppers revealed" since we wouldn't be stuck in the awkward analysis-paralysis of trying not to reveal too many or too few Coppers. Why can't Mill Town gain a card that costs $2, anyway?

Well, the reason that Mill Town can't gain $2 cards is that I was afraid that it would be too easy to run out piles with it. A hand with 3 Mill Towns and 2 Coppers could gain 4 Estates, after all. Now that I think about it, I see no real problem with the gaining being 'up to' the number of Coppers revealed as long as you still have to reveal at least 3 Coppers. I'll change the wording. I think I actually have to reword the card anyway, because as it's currently written, I think you could gain, say, a Familiar by revealing 3 Coppers.

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Surveyer is okay. +2 Cards I've always found to be a weak, nearly useless effect thrown onto cards with stronger alternate effects-- and that seems to be the case here. I'm pretty unimpressed by this card overall though. I wouldn't usually buy it-- even with a spare $3 unless there was a really good $6 Action in play that I wanted more than one of.

Yeah, it's a situational card to be sure. They can't all be power cards! I think with a little playtesting, though, you'd find it to be more useful that it seems at first glance. That +2 Cards really does help in the early game and it's a decent opener in the absence of powerful $3 and $4 Attack cards. Then in the midgame, you can trash it for a more powerful $5 or $6 terminal without increasing the density of terminal Action cards in your deck. Or you can trash it for a useful non-terminal that you've drawn dead, like Bazaar. If you get $9 in the early midgame, including a Gold, you can trash your Surveyor and pick up 2 Golds that turn.

I'll continue to test it, and if it turns out to be too weak, I'll buff it in some way. Perhaps in order to gain a copy of the revealed card, you have to put it on your deck instead of discarding it?

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The price decerement supplied by Fund would rarely be worth anything. The best thing about Bridge is decreasing the price of what you want to buy to nothing so that you are limited by your buys rather than your coins, but Fund can only decrease prices by $1 on its own (which is to say, it would only be worthwhile if Bridges and Highways were in play). I'd only maybe buy one if I needed a Silver and had $4, but I can't think of any scenarios that Fund's effect would be anywhere near as useful as Bridge's or Highway's.

Well, in the absence of Bridge or Highway, the price-lowering ability of Fund is basically useful in a few situations. First, you trash it early in order to pick up a Gold or other $6 card on turn 3 or 4. Second, if you have $8, $9, or $10 to spend, including a fund, you can trash it to pick up two $5 cards, a $5 and $6 card, or two $6 cards, respectively. Or you can trash it late-game to bump yourself from $7 to $8 for a Province. A one-shot Gold for $4 isn't bad. The price-lowering is there because it's more flexible, and in some ways easier to track, than just giving an extra $1 to spend.

That being said, I'm considering bumping its cost to $5 and removing the hand-discarding penalty. That would completely change the way the card plays and the situations it would be useful in, but I'm open to the possibility.

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Monopoly sounds like one of those luck-based Kingdom Cards I would veto constantly. Its ability to trash cards from the Supply is something I'd like to play with though...

Well, the card has three effects: the Supply-trashing, the +$2, and the Gold-gaining. Only one of those three is luck-based. Putting a Gold on your deck is good, but not immediately game-winning.

The card is basically meant to fight decks that load up on a single card without discouraging the buying of Kingdom cards in general. If more playtesting reveals that it leads to boring games, I may have to change which cards can be chosen for each effect.

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Barracks might be more useful if Conscripts wasn't gained, but could be purchased while Barracks was in play (and perhaps Conscripts are returned to their Supply instead of being trashed). As it is, I wouldn't pay $5 for Barracks unless a different, better Attack was in play. And now that I think about it, adding a +$1 to it might not be all that bad. Imagine a Market without a +Card... yeah, it has +$2 instead and is called Festival.

Yes, I might add that +$1 back. I just don't want it to be too powerful in games with other Attacks. Curses are bad enough that even in some games without other Attacks, you'd be willing to pick up a Barracks or two. It depends on what's available. As long as it's never completely useless, it's OK with me if it's a poor buy in some games. That's what Dominion is all about!

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Well, he says [Mercenary]'s a powerful $4 card. That's different from saying it's a powerful card.

Spy is also $4 and this seems a lot better than Spy to me.
Spy can affect the top of your deck which I usually found to be the most beneficial thing it can do (especially with other cantrips in play). Affecting others was just a little bonus. Mercenary only affects other's decks and is trashed if you don't discard one of those Treasures that you could otherwise use.
It looks to me like a weaker Stables with a Spy-like effect thrown on top.

That's more or less what it is. Keep in mind, though, that while Spy can cycle through the top 2 cards of your deck, Mercenary always does. I originally had the attack effect on Mercenary be identical to Spy (meaning that it could discard the top card and affected you too). That version was stupid powerful with chaining cards like Conspirator. Being able to non-terminally cycle through 3 cards at a time is no joke.

Thanks for your constructive criticism!
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2012, 04:46:25 pm »
0

I might say Clerk's Action is a bit too good for $2. You get the best of 3 cards and an extra $1 on the side. I might remove the $1 or lower the number of cards that are revealed.

I agree that the Action effect might be a touch too powerful. I might nerf it back down to looking at the top 2 cards of your deck rather than the top 3. The thing is that the reaction effect is useful, but slow. I wanted to give the action effect a bit more kick to compensate. At one time the reaction effect trashed down to 3 cards in hand, but I thought that would be too constricting. If there were some concise way to word Clerk such that upon revealing it you were allowed to trash any number of cards from your hand as long as you didn't dip below 3 cards in hand, I would go for that.

I had no qualms with Clerk's Reaction (and it did seem to be the main event of the card), but it is slow. The most semantically correct and concise method I can think of acquiring your effect is invoking the infinite-reveal clause and abusing that. "When another player plays an Attack card and you have 4 or more cards in your hand, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash a card from your hand."

Otherwise, you could go for something that doesn't require such intense knowledge of how Reactions work: "When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, you may trash cards from your hand until you have 3 cards in hand." (which is to say, this is a loop that repeats until you have 3 cards in hand or choose not to trash a card)
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AJD

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2012, 07:17:10 pm »
0

The most semantically correct and concise method I can think of acquiring your effect is invoking the infinite-reveal clause and abusing that. "When another player plays an Attack card and you have 4 or more cards in your hand, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash a card from your hand."

I'm not quite sure this works. Consider the Mandarin / Royal Seal interaction:
  • You have Royal Seal in play; gain Mandarin.
  • Two effects are triggered: top-decking Mandarin, and top-decking Royal Seal.
  • You choose to top-deck Royal Seal first.
  • Now Royal Seal is no longer in play, but you may still top-deck Mandarin, since the effect was already triggered.

I feel like something similar might happen with Clerk:
  • You have 4 cards in hand, including two Clerks. Someone plays an attack.
  • Both Clerks are triggered.
  • You reveal one Clerk and trash a card.
  • Now you have less than 4 cards in hand, but you may still reveal the other Clerk, since it has already been triggered (and you merely chose to reveal the other one first).
...and anything you can do with two copies of a Reaction in hand you can do with one copy of a Reaction in hand.

It seems to me that this argument ought to be valid. If it's not, I'm not sure why not, except that Reactions are confusing, man. (I still don't understand how the rules prevent you from revealing the same Tunnel multiple times on one discard.)
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jonts26

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2012, 07:47:18 pm »
0

I feel like something similar might happen with Clerk:
  • You have 4 cards in hand, including two Clerks. Someone plays an attack.
  • Both Clerks are triggered.
  • You reveal one Clerk and trash a card.
  • Now you have less than 4 cards in hand, but you may still reveal the other Clerk, since it has already been triggered (and you merely chose to reveal the other one first).
...and anything you can do with two copies of a Reaction in hand you can do with one copy of a Reaction in hand.

I'm not sure this is right since reactions do not trigger automatically, but are chosen to be revealed (think about what happens when you have both secret chamber and moat.) If this is the case, you resolve each one sequentially, so only 1 card can be trashed.

EDIT: But back to the topic of the cards wording, Fragansnap is correct. Since you can reveal a reaction (in response to an attack) multiple times, you just have to say 'if you have more than n cards in hand, you may trash a card'. Then just keep revealing it until you've trashed however many cards you want to/can.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 07:58:18 pm by jonts26 »
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AJD

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2012, 08:02:38 pm »
0

I feel like something similar might happen with Clerk:
  • You have 4 cards in hand, including two Clerks. Someone plays an attack.
  • Both Clerks are triggered.
  • You reveal one Clerk and trash a card.
  • Now you have less than 4 cards in hand, but you may still reveal the other Clerk, since it has already been triggered (and you merely chose to reveal the other one first).
...and anything you can do with two copies of a Reaction in hand you can do with one copy of a Reaction in hand.

I'm not sure this is right since reactions do not trigger automatically, but are chosen to be revealed (think about what happens when you have both secret chamber and moat.) If this is the case, you resolve each one sequentially, so only 1 card can be trashed.

Hmm, good point. (Which just raises further questions, I think.... Man, reactions are confusing.)
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Big Tuna

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2012, 10:31:40 pm »
0

Mercenary seems like a very powerful combo creator. I can forsee a short game with KC and Bridge/Masquerade.
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mangsky

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2012, 11:35:56 pm »
0

NICE!
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petrie911

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2012, 01:56:40 am »
+2

"When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, choose 3 or more cards in your hand and trash the rest."

I'm pretty sure that works.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2012, 09:01:30 am »
+1

"When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, choose 3 or more cards in your hand and trash the rest."

I'm pretty sure that works.

Nice! That is beautiful! Thanks for the elegant solution.

I'll edit the card to say that later today and then upload the hi-res versions I promised. I already changed Aquedect to use the 'Treasure and Action' wording (as you can see), and I've updated (but not yet uploaded) Mill Town to say 'gain a card costing up to $1 per Copper revealed'.
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NinjaBus

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2012, 12:51:44 am »
+1

I like the set a lot, the trashing on use theme hasn't really been used in dominion. As such, you get to make the one shot cards more interesting. Here's just a few thoughts...

What if Barracks scouted for attack cards instead of searching for them? Then you could combine the + actions and the + card and sketchy players couldn't cheat the system. Even if there is no other attack card, it's still a 5$ village which curses once.

Barracks: +1 card / +2 actions, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Place any revealed attack cards into your hand, and discard the rest. :: When you gain this, gain a conscripts.

I say discard the non-attack cards instead of placing them back on the deck for balance reasons, if you could use it to set up a draw chain it would be way too effective.

*Edit* I'm keeping that idea up for discussion, but I realized that as is in certain trashing heavy games, or with scrying pool, (don't even imagine ambassador) that card as suggested is way too good.

Honestly just make it "+1 card / +2 actions, when you gain this card gain a conscripts." It might be a little boring, but it's balanced and never useless in a kingdom set.

I like fund, one shot gold is never bad. However, you might want to restrict the +buy to only when you trash it, otherwise it blows woodcutter out of the water. Did you have problems in playtesting if it's effect stacked with itself? The upshot of bridge is that you can use it to buy more of itself rapidly, but with fund you can't, since you trash it in the process. It might be slow enough that without other sources of income massing lab/fund isn't automatically a winning strategy.

Cathedral appears to be godly powerful at first glance. Its 1 card draw short of embassy, a card so good it gives your opponent silvers when you buy it. And it even trashes instead of discarding your crap cards! If you want, you can even move money to your next hand if you've gone over 8$. Yikes. Ironically, making it trash more and courtyard more would be really cool. What about "+4 cards, trash up to 4 cards from your hand and place your hand on top of your deck in any order?"

I'm sorry if I'm completely changing how you wanted these cards to be played, but I'm a bit tired and fairly inspired by what you have here. :)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 01:33:55 am by NinjaBus »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2012, 11:18:45 am »
+1

What if Barracks scouted for attack cards instead of searching for them? Then you could combine the + actions and the + card and sketchy players couldn't cheat the system. Even if there is no other attack card, it's still a 5$ village which curses once.

Barracks: +1 card / +2 actions, reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Place any revealed attack cards into your hand, and discard the rest. :: When you gain this, gain a conscripts.

I say discard the non-attack cards instead of placing them back on the deck for balance reasons, if you could use it to set up a draw chain it would be way too effective.

*Edit* I'm keeping that idea up for discussion, but I realized that as is in certain trashing heavy games, or with scrying pool, (don't even imagine ambassador) that card as suggested is way too good.

Honestly just make it "+1 card / +2 actions, when you gain this card gain a conscripts." It might be a little boring, but it's balanced and never useless in a kingdom set.

I like your 'Scout for Attacks' idea. It also gets around the fact that there could potentially someday be an Attack card that isn't an Action (which would throw the current version of Barracks for a loop). As you say, it might easily be too powerful in many decks.

As far as balance goes, the current version of Barracks seems OK in testing so far. Yeah, the +2 Actions is a pretty poor option, but sometimes you need it. Nobles is a good example. Ideally you want to use Nobles for +3 Cards, but it's nice to have the +2 Actions as a backup. Even when there are no other Attack cards available, sometimes it's worth going for Barracks. Curses are powerful enough that if there's no good Curse trashing or there is good trash-for-benefit, Barracks can still be worth the price of admission.

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I like fund, one shot gold is never bad. However, you might want to restrict the +buy to only when you trash it, otherwise it blows woodcutter out of the water. Did you have problems in playtesting if it's effect stacked with itself? The upshot of bridge is that you can use it to buy more of itself rapidly, but with fund you can't, since you trash it in the process. It might be slow enough that without other sources of income massing lab/fund isn't automatically a winning strategy.

Well, it definitely does blow Woodcutter out of the water, but to be fair, it does cost (ever so slightly) more and Woodcutter is a pretty weak card. In addition, using an Action chain, you could in theory play multiple Woodcutters on the same turn, which you can't do with Fund. That being said, I'm revamping Clerk at the moment, and if I give it +1 Buy, I'd be more amenable to restricting Fund's +1 Buy to the one-shot effect.

When you ask if I had problems with its effect stacking with itself, do you mean playing and trashing multiple Funds? With just the cards in this set and the official cards, that's impossible. When you play Fund, you discard your hand, so the first Fund you play discards all other Funds in hand. It's the only way I could think of to price a Silver-with a bonus at $4, and I don't think anybody would buy a one-shot Gold at $5. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

As you say, trashing a Fund and buying another Fund on the same turn is a waste of coins, unless you have other cards like Bridge and Highway in play that are lowering costs further.

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Cathedral appears to be godly powerful at first glance. Its 1 card draw short of embassy, a card so good it gives your opponent silvers when you buy it. And it even trashes instead of discarding your crap cards! If you want, you can even move money to your next hand if you've gone over 8$. Yikes. Ironically, making it trash more and courtyard more would be really cool. What about "+4 cards, trash up to 4 cards from your hand and place your hand on top of your deck in any order?"

Well, OK, let me tell you about the history of Cathedral. Originally, it was, "+3 Cards. +1 Action. Put 2 cards back on your deck. You may spend a token. If you do, reveal the top 4 (5?) cards of your deck, trashing any of them and discarding the others. When you gain this, take a token." Rinkworks quite rightly pointed out that this could decide the game on a 5/2 split, since it blows Chapel out of the water. So I changed the token spending effect to, "If you do, trash the top 2 cards of your deck."

Then, I tested that version with my wife. It was a game with some Curse-giver. She kept buying up Cathedrals in order to gain tokens and be able to trash the Curses. It was non-terminal, after all, so you could buy up a ton and the only downside was opportunity cost. Well, it turns out that repeatedly drawing 3 cards and putting 2 back, only to draw them when you play your next Cathedral is really annoying. Even if buying a ton wasn't the optimal strategy, I realized that enough players would do it that I couldn't make it non-terminal.

So I took away the +1 Action and gave it two things to compensate. The first was bumping it up from +3 Cards to +4 Cards. The second was having it get you two tokens instead of one. This is the version of the card you currently see in the thread. As recent testing has revealed, this was overkill. I will soon update the card so that you only get one token upon gaining the card.

So, anyhow, I like your whole 'trash up to 4 and put the rest back' idea, but it's a bit far removed from the card I have. It could be a very cool mechanic for a new card, though. Just be careful of it dominating on a 5/2 split.

Once you can only trash once per copy of Cathedral you gain, the rest of the card might be OK as it stands. Yes, you can use it to put excess Treasure back on your deck, but it does only net you 1 card in hand (like Moat) and there are definitely times when you'd rather discard 2 cards than put 2 back (which is part of why Embassy is so powerful).

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I'm sorry if I'm completely changing how you wanted these cards to be played, but I'm a bit tired and fairly inspired by what you have here. :)

Thanks for your feedback! If any of these three cards turns out to need more tweaking, I'll definitely try out your suggestions.
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