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[Donald X.]

Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;

It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

But Fortress (or Band of Misfits pretending to be Fortress) does not end up in the trash pile.  Surely that must confuse Procession.

And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

Procession would be unable to move Fortress somewhere else at that point though.

[werothegreat]

Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;

It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

But Fortress (or Band of Misfits pretending to be Fortress) does not end up in the trash pile.  Surely that must confuse Procession.

And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

Procession would be unable to move Fortress somewhere else at that point though.

So if I Ironworks an Estate, and reveal Trader to gain a Silver instead, then I SHOULD draw 1 card, is what you're saying?

[Voltgloss]

Say you play BoM-as-Hermit.  Then don't buy anything that turn.  Do you trash BoM?  Do you get a Madman?

[AJD]

Say you play BoM-as-Hermit.  Then don't buy anything that turn.  Do you trash BoM?  Do you get a Madman?

Yes, and yes.

[zahlman]

How can cards possibly know anything

Through the miracle of object-oriented programming, I can only assume. ;p

[blueblimp]

Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;

It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

But Fortress (or Band of Misfits pretending to be Fortress) does not end up in the trash pile.  Surely that must confuse Procession.

And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

Procession would be unable to move Fortress somewhere else at that point though.

So if I Ironworks an Estate, and reveal Trader to gain a Silver instead, then I SHOULD draw 1 card, is what you're saying?

The Ironworks/Trader interaction is not related to the lose-track rule. It was explained earlier in this thread:

Ironworks wants to know something about the card it gained. It didn't gain a card, so there is no such information. The fact that there is a card it *would* have gained is irrelevant.

[werothegreat]

Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;

It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

But Fortress (or Band of Misfits pretending to be Fortress) does not end up in the trash pile.  Surely that must confuse Procession.

And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

Procession would be unable to move Fortress somewhere else at that point though.

So if I Ironworks an Estate, and reveal Trader to gain a Silver instead, then I SHOULD draw 1 card, is what you're saying?

The Ironworks/Trader interaction is not related to the lose-track rule. It was explained earlier in this thread:

Ironworks wants to know something about the card it gained. It didn't gain a card, so there is no such information. The fact that there is a card it *would* have gained is irrelevant.

Ah, that infamous "would."

[Qvist]

Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;

It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

But Fortress (or Band of Misfits pretending to be Fortress) does not end up in the trash pile.  Surely that must confuse Procession.

And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

Procession would be unable to move Fortress somewhere else at that point though.

So if I Ironworks an Estate, and reveal Trader to gain a Silver instead, then I SHOULD draw 1 card, is what you're saying?

The Ironworks/Trader interaction is not related to the lose-track rule. It was explained earlier in this thread:

Ironworks wants to know something about the card it gained. It didn't gain a card, so there is no such information. The fact that there is a card it *would* have gained is irrelevant.

Ah, that infamous "would."

Who let the blue dogs out? Would, would, would.

[e2718]

If Feast said "burn this card, gain a card costing up to $5," and you Throned it, would you expect to gain two cards? I would like to say I feel like most people would, but actually "what happens when I Throne a Feast" used to be the most common rules question I was asked. Anyway I think I want you to still gain the second card there.

I think this post is the fundamental disagreement between the "Feast + ?" and "2xFeast" crowds regarding TR + BoM[Feast]. I also think the post is incorrect in the sense that a person undertaking a reasonable interpretation of the rules to date would not expect to gain two cards in this case.

The word "play" in throne room can be reasonably defined as "move this card from your hand to the play area. execute all text on it (the aforementioned card)," as that's what you do when you play an action normally. The second time Throne Room tries to "play" a card, it (the Throne Room) fails to move the card from the hand (it's already in the play area or somewhere else) but still executes text again. This is consistent with all previous interactions with released expansions (the Feast is executed again from the trash, so it gets you another card).

With that definition in hand, let's see what the interaction of Throne Room with BurnFeast is. To be clear, suppose "burning the card" means that there is no longer text on it (as it is now a pile of ashes). Now, when Throne Room tries to execute all text on the card the second time, it's been burnt, so we fail to do so, and we fail to gain our second card costing less than or equal to (5).

So let's analyze how this plays out with BoM. The text on BoM, as written, is equivalent to "When this enters play, replace all properties of it (name, cost, image*, artist*, type, text, expansion marker symbol*) with those of a card in the supply, but add 'When this card leaves play, it becomes a Band of Misfits**' to the text." Here, this interpretation is reasonable because that is exactly what this card does (becomes another one until it leaves play).

The current text of the cards, therefore, leads us to conclude that: first, TR + BoM[Smithy] leads us to drawing 6 cards (you choose Smithy when the card is first played, replacing its text with "+3 Cards; When this card leaves play, it becomes a Band of Misfits", which is executed twice successfully), and secondly, TR + BoM[Feast] choosing what target the second invocation of BoM has† as opposed to what TR + Feast would imply.

For the second half of your post -- "I think I want you to still gain the second card there" -- it's your game, and with it comes your design decisions. But I don't agree that this "rules interpretation" is something that is clear from previous ones and the text of the cards. If your interpretation is to survive, the text of Throne Room should be errata'd to be something that reflects your wish, as the only way I can see BurnFeast working out the way you claim it does is with some sort of memory attached to Throne Room (as written, "it" clearly refers to the 'card' that was chosen, not 'the text of the card when Throne Room resolves'). Contradictions with reasonable interpretations diminish gameplay experience -- ex falso quodlibet comes to mind for a reason why we'd want to minimize those.

*No revealed cards rely on these properties. But clearly they are copied anyway.
**Meaning, of course, those earlier mentioned properties are copied back onto the card from BoM
†The order of events that would happen is

1) Throne room is played with BoM as a target
2) BoM is played the first time, but its "Play this as if" text replaces the text on it with "Trash this card. Gain a card costing up to (5). When this card leaves play, it reverts to a BoM"
3) Text is executed. The BoM is trashed, you gain a card costing up to (5), and the text on it reverts to a BoM as it has left play.
4) Throne room plays the physical BoM card again. It fails to be removed from hand, but it gets its text executed. Its "play this as if" text triggers again, allowing the player to choose a second card.

[mborda]

I think TR selected an action card from your hand, which was most definitely BoM at that step, since it hasn't been (about to be) played yet.  At any rate, regardless of whether it selected BoM-as-Feast, that card is no longer BoM-as-Feast by the time TR2 rolls around.

(Obviously, Donald has prerogative to issue clarifications or errata whenever he feels, but I don't think the cards as written suggest the ruling as given for TR-BoM-Feast.)

Yes, but you're Throne Rooming a BoM-as-Feast, not a BoM simply.  To "Throne Room" something is not simply to choose it with Throne Room, but to also play it with Throne Room.  To be "activated" by Throne Room means both chosen AND put in play, and as soon as you say "play," BoM is a Feast (or whatever).  You don't stop saying "play" until the Throne Room has run it's course.

====

Essentially:

Play Throne Room.
Choose a card.  (What card?  BoM.)
Play that card twice.  (What card? BoM-as-Feast.)

vs.

Play Throne Room.
Choose a card.  (What card?  BoM.)
Play that card twice.  (What card? BoM-as-Feast.)
Play the chosen card. (BoM-as-Feast)
Reevaluate the status of the chosen card.
Play the chosen card. (BoM)

====

Scenario 1 looks like Throne Room... simple and direct.
Scenario 2 adds in a lot more that isn't simply or directly on Throne Room.

I totally agree with you.

I believe the problem is that TR's "Play it twice." does not exactly mean "Play it. Play it." (though in most cases it is just the same).

IMHO "Play it twice" means that the evaluation of the card is just made at the beginning, there's no middle point to reevaluate the state of the card.

And also I think this is the most intuitive way to play it. I play with a lot of people that are no experienced gamers (so they tend to use their intuition a lot more than us that try to think everything in a more complicated "combo" way), and when they play TR or KC, they just look at the card at the beginning...

[NoMoreFun]

If the card imitates a Duration card (eg. Caravan), and in the interceding turn the last copy of that card is taken from the supply, what happens? Do you go ahead and play out the action or does the Band of Misfits forget what it's supposed to be doing?

On another note, since the card has to be in the supply, would a good solution to the tracking be to grab the card and place it on top of a sideways Band of Misfits? The issue would be remembering that the card you're using is still in the supply so you can gain it and the pile isn't empty. Maybe the randomisers can be used for this purpose, although then you get problems if you want to play multiples of the same card with Bands of Misfits.

Edit: I was also going to ask if it stopped any "while this is in play" effects, but Highway and Haggler cost the same as Band of Misfits, Goons costs more, Princess isn't in the supply and the rest are treasures. Nicely done Mr Vaccarino.

[AJD]

Edit: I was also going to ask if it stopped any "while this is in play" effects, but Highway and Haggler cost the same as Band of Misfits, Goons costs more, Princess isn't in the supply and the rest are treasures. Nicely done Mr Vaccarino.

Lighthouse has a "when in play" effect. And yes, certainly it does, since Band of Misfits acts as the target card while it is in play.

[NoMoreFun]

The issue is the target card doesn't exist any more as far as the Band of Misfits is concerned, which might be a problem.

[AJD]

The issue is the target card doesn't exist any more as far as the Band of Misfits is concerned, which might be a problem.

I think I don't understand what you mean by this.

[NoMoreFun]

The issue is the target card doesn't exist any more as far as the Band of Misfits is concerned, which might be a problem.

I think I don't understand what you mean by this.

You play a Band of Misfits as a Lighthouse, then buy the last Lighthouse from the supply, emptying the pile. The band of misfits is therefore no longer imitating a card in the supply (and you wouldn't be allowed to play it as a Lighthouse again). Does that retroactively stop the "Lighthouse"s protection from attacks? Do you still get +$1 next turn?

[Grujah]

No. When you play Band of Misfits, it turns into a card that is in supply and stays that card while it is in play. If the conditions change meanwhile, it doesn't matter; BoM only checks the conditions upon entering the play.

[Grujah]

This starts getting all Magic-y now.

[Avin]

You know what? I think I've identified the source of the confusion here between my interpretation of the card and your intention for it (the same confusion has manifested both in this question and in my Conspirator question).

I'm interpreting "Play this as if it were..." as the on-play instructions for the card, similar to Throne Room's. So for instance when you play a Throne Room, here's what happens:

• I put the Throne Room card in play. "I play a Throne Room!" What do I do now? I read the instructions on the card. Oho, it tells me to choose an Action in my hand and play it twice. I'll do that! Let's play that Smithy from my hand! Twice!

In other words, playing the Smithy is a separate event from, and a consequence of, playing the Throne Room itself. In the same way, I was visualizing Band of Misfits as this:

• I put the Band of Misfits card in play. "I play a Band of Misfits!" What do I do now? I read the instructions on the card. Oho, it tells me to play it as another Action in the supply. I'll do that! Let's play it as a Smithy!
  

So in this reading, playing the Band of Misfits as a Smithy is a separate event from, and a consequence of, putting the Band of Misfits in play to begin with. But that's not the interpretation I infer that you're intending for the card text. What you're implying, if I follow, is that "Play this as if it were..." isn't instructions to execute as a result of playing the card, the way Throne Room's text is; it's instructions on what playing the card actually consists of. So the interpretation you're telling me is this:

• I put the Band of Misfits card in play. "I play this as a Smithy!" What do I do now? Oho, I draw three cards. Okay.

Right?

If this interpretation is correct, and it sounds like it is, then what happens if there are no action cards in the supply that cost less than $5? Does that mean that you can actually NOT play a Band of Misfits, making it essentially a dead $5 card in your deck?

(either the kingdom has only $5 or above cards in it, or the only cards costing less than $5 are treasure/victory cards, or all cards costing less than $5 have been emptied already)

Note that if you have Horn of Plenty, being allowed to play a Band of Misfits without having it imitate another card can make a difference in how much the HoP is worth. I'm sure there are other reasons people can come up with for wanting to play a Band of Misfits even if it's not possible to imitate another card.

[() | (_) ^/]

If this interpretation is correct, and it sounds like it is, then what happens if there are no action cards in the supply that cost less than $5? Does that mean that you can actually NOT play a Band of Misfits, making it essentially a dead $5 card in your deck?

(either the kingdom has only $5 or above cards in it, or the only cards costing less than $5 are treasure/victory cards, or all cards costing less than $5 have been emptied already)

Note that if you have Horn of Plenty, being allowed to play a Band of Misfits without having it imitate another card can make a difference in how much the HoP is worth. I'm sure there are other reasons people can come up with for wanting to play a Band of Misfits even if it's not possible to imitate another card.

Forced to play it (Throne Room, Golem).

[WanderingWinder]

You know what? I think I've identified the source of the confusion here between my interpretation of the card and your intention for it (the same confusion has manifested both in this question and in my Conspirator question).

I'm interpreting "Play this as if it were..." as the on-play instructions for the card, similar to Throne Room's. So for instance when you play a Throne Room, here's what happens:

• I put the Throne Room card in play. "I play a Throne Room!" What do I do now? I read the instructions on the card. Oho, it tells me to choose an Action in my hand and play it twice. I'll do that! Let's play that Smithy from my hand! Twice!

In other words, playing the Smithy is a separate event from, and a consequence of, playing the Throne Room itself. In the same way, I was visualizing Band of Misfits as this:

• I put the Band of Misfits card in play. "I play a Band of Misfits!" What do I do now? I read the instructions on the card. Oho, it tells me to play it as another Action in the supply. I'll do that! Let's play it as a Smithy!
  

So in this reading, playing the Band of Misfits as a Smithy is a separate event from, and a consequence of, putting the Band of Misfits in play to begin with. But that's not the interpretation I infer that you're intending for the card text. What you're implying, if I follow, is that "Play this as if it were..." isn't instructions to execute as a result of playing the card, the way Throne Room's text is; it's instructions on what playing the card actually consists of. So the interpretation you're telling me is this:

• I put the Band of Misfits card in play. "I play this as a Smithy!" What do I do now? Oho, I draw three cards. Okay.

Right?

If this interpretation is correct, and it sounds like it is, then what happens if there are no action cards in the supply that cost less than $5? Does that mean that you can actually NOT play a Band of Misfits, making it essentially a dead $5 card in your deck?

(either the kingdom has only $5 or above cards in it, or the only cards costing less than $5 are treasure/victory cards, or all cards costing less than $5 have been emptied already)

Note that if you have Horn of Plenty, being allowed to play a Band of Misfits without having it imitate another card can make a difference in how much the HoP is worth. I'm sure there are other reasons people can come up with for wanting to play a Band of Misfits even if it's not possible to imitate another card.

No. You can play BoM, and you do as much as you can, which.... in this case is nothing. So it stays in play, having done nothing.

[rinkworks]

If this interpretation is correct, and it sounds like it is, then what happens if there are no action cards in the supply that cost less than $5? Does that mean that you can actually NOT play a Band of Misfits, making it essentially a dead $5 card in your deck?

My guess is that you can still play it, because the fact that it's an Action card means you're allowed to play it during your Action phase if you have Actions left.  But in the spirit of "do as much as you can," you wind up not being able to do anything with it, and so it just doesn't do anything when played.  Again, that's just a guess.

But it's kind of got to be playable, just because Golem might force you to.

--

Edit: NINJAED!  Wow, it's like everybody is constantly refreshing this subforum or something.

[() | (_) ^/]

No. You can play BoM, and you do as much as you can, which.... in this case is nothing. So it stays in play, having done nothing.

If I have a Village and a BoM-as-Village in play, and then I play my HoP, it is worth 2.

If I have a Village and a BoM in play (due to the phenomenon described above), and then I play my HoP, it is worth 3.

Sound correct?

[AJD]

I feel like the wording "This is that card until it leaves play" is a little weird; I would have expected "This is a copy of that card until it leaves play." It's obviously not that card—if I play BoM as a Smithy, and then someone wants to gain a Smithy from the supply, they don't gain my BoM. This isn't a mistake anyone would ever make in playing, of course; it's just different phrasing than I would have expected.

[Schlippy]

I am kind of disappointed that you can not possibly play a BoM like it was a BoM. :>

[pauley_walnuts]

I am kind of disappointed that you can not possibly play a BoM like it was a BoM. :>

Yeah, but then it could be a never-ending action. And there's this: