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[LaLight]

Making another thread to be able to mod it.

This is a first run of their semi-open setup for 14 players, Bread and Circuses. All information about the setup is included in the 2nd and 3rd posts.

Flavor will be [...] nonsense [...].

Playerlist:

• arishipshape
• DatSwan
• chairs
• jotheonah
• MiX
• A Drowned Kernel
• gkrieg13
• mcmcsalot
• Glooble
• Galzria
• Faust
• Joseph2302
• SpaceAnemone
• EFHW

* indicates a prod

Mods: LaLight, Uncleeurope

Tagged:

Navigation:
Day 1 Start | Day 1 End

Rules:

The normal Rules of Mafia apply, with the following additions and changes
General

• This is the mod color. This is also the mod color.  You may not use these colors, or very small text, or any sort of stenography or encryption we deem likely to hurt the game.
• All players will have personal QTs that they may post in at any time.
• Questions will be answered, errors fixed, and rule-breaking punished at mod discretion.  We'll try our best to be fair and impartial and make sure everyone has fun, but some questions may not be answered and some things may not be resolved the way you want.  Complain about it via PM or QT, not in thread.
• Mod communications of any kind may not be directly quoted in thread, although they may be paraphrased.
• Private topic posts may only be quoted if you don't imply they came from your private topic, drafts are fine, "Hey, here are my notes from 2 days ago"is not. Same for offline note taking, etc.

Voting

• You may Vote: No Lynch.  If half, rounded up, of the living players vote this way, a No Lynch is achieved and the day ends.
• Voting must be in bold to count.  If I recognize it as a vote for someone, it counts as a vote.  Ambiguity kills.  If I don't know who you are voting for, it doesn't count.  Errors should be pointed out in thread, but if you were just being too weird for me to figure out what you meant, just revote.
• Unvotes are not required to change your vote.

Deadlines & Prods

• Game days will last 8 real life days.  Nights will last 2 days.  At the start of the phase I may announce that there will be a bit of extra time to line things up with my schedule.
• All players still alive are required to check in during the night in (at least one of) their QT(s).
• Night Actions may be submitted up until 2 hours before the next day starts.
• If all players consent to it via QT or PM, night may be shortened and resolved as soon as I can.
• Plurality Rules!
  When time for the day is up and no majority has been reached, the player with the most votes is lynched.  If there is a tie, the player who most recently had more votes is lynched. If there is still a tie, the player who reached their current number of votes first is lynched. If there is still a tie, the player who most recently won a board game is lynched. If your vote is 1 second after the set deadline, that vote does not count, whether I've locked the thread or not.
• Prods will be issued after 48 hours without posting in the game thread, unless you have declared V/LA.  A player has 24 hours to respond to the prod, after that I'll start trying to find a replacement.  If you post in thread before I do, that's fine.  After 3 prods, players are subject to replacement or modkill, at the mods' discretion.  I might send out pokes before you're eligible for a prod, these have no consequences attached and are just to get you posting again and let you know you're close to being prodded.  But I'm not promising to always do so.
• I'm happy to send prods by email or some other means if people like, but prods will be sent by PM on site by default. Let me know by PM if you have some other preference.
• Players who discover they are too busy to play in a game or want to leave the game for civility issues are not allowed to officially /out in the thread once the game has started.  A request to replace out must be done via a post in the role QT or PM. Please do not use this as a manipulation technique.  (Note players may continue to threaten to /out or imply that they might as long as it does not include an official request). Requests to /out are final once submitted. There will be no /outing and then /inning back into the game so make sure that when you /out you have thought it through and really want to do it. Players that can't be replaced will simply be mod-killed. Whether your request to /out will lead to replacement or a modkill is up to the mod's discretion.

[LaLight]

Still have no ideas for flavor. I will think of something as we go. Possibly there will just be the stories of my life. Or not. Anyway, pms are going out.

Also setup:

Setup: Bread and Circuses
by Umbrageofsnow and Uncleeurope

1 Goon + 5 VTs

|

C

|

D

A

| | | |

Supersaint Jester        Macho 2-shot Cop Semi-Elite Bodyguard VT

| | | |

Mafia 1-shot BP Traitor Mafia Odd-Night Promoter VT Semi-Elite Bodyguard

B

| | | |

Mafia Godfather Mafia Goon Town Odd-Night Promoter Semi-Elite Bodyguard

| | | |

Lyncher Doctor        Vengeful Townie        Psychologist        Tracker

Additional Rules:

• Plurality Lynch
• Traitor knows Mafia, Mafia doesn’t know traitor, dies if night-killed
• Traitor is guilty to cop, innocent to Psychologist (until the night it inherits the NK)
• Traitor inherits the night kill if other mafia are all dead
• Psychologist is slightly non-standard: it's result occurs before the night's kill
• Promoter can self-target
• Promoter turns a player into a compulsive gladiator the next day.
• The player who has become a gladiator will be announced at the start of each day.
• Vengeful can only target on-wagon
• Bodyguards protect from kills, not death, so if 2 Bodyguards protect each other and one is killed, the other dies
• Bodyguard can protect from Vengeful/Supersaint kills, which happen the following night.
• If 2 Bodyguards target the same player and that player would die, both die, but they kill the attacker.
• This doesn't work on the Cop.
  
• The Vengeful Townie is capable of performing a kill to the Psychologist
• Jester cannot self-hammer
• Lyncher can self-doctor
• Lyncher's target will be one of the VTs

The setup is one of 4, either a column or a row of the above table, and then 1 Mafia Goon and 5 VTs are added

Possible Role PMs

After you are lynched you will kill the last player on your wagon at the end of the Night.

You win if you are lynched before the end of the game. Your lynch does not end the game. You may vote for yourself, but if your vote would be the final vote required for your lynch it will not count.

Each night you may target one player (possibly yourself) to protect them from one kill attempt.

Your target is {Player}, you know they are a VT.
You win if your target is lynched while you are still alive.

When your target dies you also die.

Your only weapons are your voice and your vote. Also your factional night kill. Each night, one member of your team with access to your team QT may target a player to attempt to kill them.
You may talk to your partner(s) at night here.

You win when at least half of the players left alive are members of the Mafia.

If you are investigated by the cop, they will be told you are town-aligned.

Each night, one member of your team with access to your team QT may target a player to attempt to kill them.
You may talk to your partners at night here.

You win when at least half of the players left alive are members of the Mafia.

Your teammates are {Player} and {Player}, but they do not know you.

If both of your teammates die, you inherit access to their team QT and their ability to target a player to attempt to kill each night.

You will survive the first time you would be killed at night.

You win when at least half of the players left alive are members of the Mafia.

Each odd-numbered night, you must nominate one player (possibly yourself) to enter a fight the next day. If you don't make a selection, one will be made for you at random. On the following day, your target must submit Challenge: {Playername} in bold in the game thread before 72 hours have passed. Otherwise a Challenger will be chosen at random. All votes will be reset, and for the rest of the Day only votes for one of the combatants will be accepted.

Each night, one member of your team with access to your team QT may target a player to attempt to kill them. You may attempt the kill and Promote a fight on the same night.
You may talk to your partner at night here.

You win when at least half of the players left alive are members of the Mafia.

Each odd-numbered night, you must nominate one player (possibly yourself) to enter a fight the next day. If you don't make a selection, one will be made for you at random. On the following day, your target must submit Challenge: {Playername} in bold in the game thread before 72 hours have passed. Otherwise a Challenger will be chosen at random. All votes will be reset, and for the rest of the Day only votes for one of the combatants will be accepted.

You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Each night you may target a player other than yourself to protect. If that player would be killed, they survive and you die instead.

If you and another Bodyguard both protect the same player, if you die for your target, together the two of you will also kill the attacker. This counts as one kill attempt.

You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

After you are lynched you may target a player on your wagon, you kill that player at the end of the Night.

You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Twice per game, you may use one of your shots at night to target a player to investigate. You will receive a result of “{Player} is town-aligned” or “{Player} is not town-aligned.”

If you would otherwise die at night and are protected by a Bodyguard, you will die anyway and the Bodyguard will survive.

You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Each night you may target a player to investigate. You will receive a result of “Can Kill” if they are capable of killing a player at night but have not yet done so. If they cannot kill, or if they have already killed someone, you will receive a result of “Cannot Kill.” This investigation resolves before the night’s kill.

You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Each night you may target a player to track. You will get the names of any player they targeted or “{Player} did not visit anyone.”

You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Your only weapons are your voice and your vote.
You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

[LaLight]

pms are out. N0 starts now and ends when everyone confirms their roles but not earlier than in 24 hours.

[LaLight]

Threade Lockede also.

[WestCoastDidds]

/tag

[shraeye]

I'm watching too!

[mcmcsalot]

/tag

[Uncleeurope]

/tag

You are in this game...?

[mail-mi]

/tag

You are in this game...?

He's tagging the thread so that he gets updates on it.

[Uncleeurope]

/tag

You are in this game...?

He's tagging the thread so that he gets updates on it.

Ahkay, assumed it was a spectator QT request. Didn’t know that that kind of tag was a thing. I was confuzzled.

Carry on.

[LaLight]

Waiting on 1 more confirmation

[LaLight]

It was a quiet wednesday morning. LaLight was sitting at his job, thinking what to do next (because clearly, work tasks take lower priority over basically anything else). Then he suddenly remembered.

"My god! I have a mafia game to open!"

Out of all the options he could have been doing right now, he decided to choose this one.

So here we are.

Day One has started!

Not voting (14): arishipshape, DatSwan, chairs, jotheonah, MiX, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, mcmcsalot, Glooble, Galzria, faust, Joseph2302, SpaceAnemone, EFHW


With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
Day 1 ends Wednesday, 1st of May, at 5:30 ft.

Thread Unlocked.

[MiX]

Hello everyone, allow me to introduce myself: I'm town, faust is town, gkrieg is scum, mcmc will win or be endgamed, arishipshape will be lynched D1 as Jester, Lyncher will win without protectecting anyone, Traitor will either get NKd or lynched, Godfather won't be copped, Tracked will be useless and Bodyguards will target each other.

As for votes, I want to do this:

Vote: arishipshape

Because I will not allow for him to lay low again. Prove your townieness!

First post!

[faust]

Congrats MiX!

Setup is interesting. There are maybe things you could do on D1, I'm not sure they're going to be worth it, but I will give it some more thought.

For the moment, Vote: MiX for wanting to lynch the Jester over scum.

[Glooble]

Hi everyone!

I have some thoughts about the setup but most of them fall under “I don’t want to make scum’s job easier by telling them what my assumptions will be so they can undermine them.” I will say think it’s more important than usual that we have a good amount of interaction day one simply because day two most of us are going to have to choose between two players, so having one or two townreads and one or two scumreads (often the position I’m in day two) might be totally useless, if none of them end up “fighting”.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Good morning everyone!

So the thought I had on the setup is that I think the town promoter (if they exist) should just claim off the bat. It would create a pseudo-IC and give us info on the setup without actually revealing anything to scum, and it isn't a PR that we're worried about scum knowing about since it's negative utility. So unless there's something that I'm missing, there's really no downside to them claiming.

[MiX]

Not sure it's negative utility...I believe It's crucial to corner scum D2, provided Promoter has good reads. However, it depends on the Promoter and their target's reads a tad bit too much...but remember that it can't be (easily) influenced by scum. Overall I like the idea of claiming.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Not sure it's negative utility...I believe It's crucial to corner scum D2, provided Promoter has good reads. However, it depends on the Promoter and their target's reads a tad bit too much...but remember that it can't be (easily) influenced by scum. Overall I like the idea of claiming.

It can't necessarily be influenced by scum but I would say that most people's day two reads are going to be, on average, bad.

[Glooble]

Good morning everyone!

So the thought I had on the setup is that I think the town promoter (if they exist) should just claim off the bat. It would create a pseudo-IC and give us info on the setup without actually revealing anything to scum, and it isn't a PR that we're worried about scum knowing about since it's negative utility. So unless there's something that I'm missing, there's really no downside to them claiming.

How does it create a pseudo-IC? What stops the scum-aligned promoter from claiming town promoter?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Good morning everyone!

So the thought I had on the setup is that I think the town promoter (if they exist) should just claim off the bat. It would create a pseudo-IC and give us info on the setup without actually revealing anything to scum, and it isn't a PR that we're worried about scum knowing about since it's negative utility. So unless there's something that I'm missing, there's really no downside to them claiming.

How does it create a pseudo-IC? What stops the scum-aligned promoter from claiming town promoter?

They would risk getting caught eventually if the traitor ever flips.

[Joseph2302]

Vote: Space because of Real Life Mafia 1

[Joseph2302]

I'm the SK

[arishipshape]

Vote: arishipshape
Because I will not allow for him to lay low again. Prove your townieness!

Bring it on, MiX! I entirely deserve this vote, after my performance last game. However, I got my wish this game. I'm the good guy.  For the record I totally did NOT lay low last game, at least day 1. Anyways, finger of suspicion on Joseph for claiming SK. Yes, yes, it was obviously sarcastic, blah blah blah. In my experience, at least with ten minute mafia, when you claim a scum role, it improves the chances that you are scum. Besides, townies shouldn't pull that crap. It's lost so many games in the past. Just don't lie as town. Period. There's already two bandwagons out, so I'm not gonna start a new one. Vote: MiX, because last time I did that, I won. And Faust rocks, so I'm gonna follow his lead. For now.

[MiX]

Apologies: when I said lay low, I meant exploit your newness to its full extent. Multiple bandwagons are absolutely town: just look how Promoter is negative utility precisely because it limits our options to two people. Also, you've seen town!Joseph do the exact same, yet you think it means they're more likely to be scum: why? I also believe town should be able to lie sometimes, it's sometimes useful and can blow the game wide open if they do it correctly.

What are your opinions on the current setup talk, that is, Promoter claim?

[arishipshape]

Apologies: when I said lay low, I meant exploit your newness to its full extent. Multiple bandwagons are absolutely town: just look how Promoter is negative utility precisely because it limits our options to two people. Also, you've seen town!Joseph do the exact same, yet you think it means they're more likely to be scum: why? I also believe town should be able to lie sometimes, it's sometimes useful and can blow the game wide open if they do it correctly.

What are your opinions on the current setup talk, that is, Promoter claim?

Apology accepted. I won't be abusing my noob-ness this game. Wow. I can't believe I forgot about multiple wagons being optimal for town... I guess I'm less obsessed with town optimal-ness when I'm actually town. Vote:Joseph, because of my previously stated reasons and MiX reminding me that more wagons=good. I've seen town!Joseph claim scum, sure. On the whole, claiming scum, lying as town, crazy gambits, they sow confusion, discord, and strife. One of the best ways to town hunt is to find people that are utterly consistent. Lying makes it impossible to stay consistent: you have to backpedal. If all the towns always told the truth, the game would be much easier, as we would have 3 liars to deal with, instead of any number. I held this position last game, and I hold it this game. Lying hurts town.

I think, if promoter is such a negative town role, we should be hoping for the promoters death. We don't want to waste a lynch on it, ergo it falls to the mafia to accidentally kill them. Therefore, not claiming in the hopes of getting NKed would be best. On the other hand, I don't deny the power and utility granted by a clear (IC=clear, right?). This early in the game, unless the Promoter thinks that they are the best at this game and can run the entire show from here on, I don't see to much benefit from a clear. Later in the game, when the lynch pool shrinks, a clear would be convenient. TLDR, if the promoter thinks that they are awesome, claim and run the show. If not, try to get killed and spare some positive town role the death.

Tell me, Joseph, why do you claim SK? Obviously you don't actually mean your the SK... What's the point? To cause more confusion? Yes yes, I know there isn't even a SK in this setup. But why bother with lying? Is it some sort of tradition? Meta is a dangerous game.

[Glooble]

vote: arishipshape for jumping on Joseph for what was clearly a joke (claiming a role not even in the setup) and treating it like a legit claim. Feels disingenuous.

[arishipshape]

vote: arishipshape for jumping on Joseph for what was clearly a joke (claiming a role not even in the setup) and treating it like a legit claim. Feels disingenuous.

I'm not treating it like a claim! I'm saying he lied, ergo he has a higher chance of being scum! Joking is not wise to do in a mafia game. Unless, of course, your goal is to spread confusion. Then joke all you want. Who do we know that benefits from confusion?

[gkrieg13]

I'm the SK

Well Joseph isn’t scum.

vote: Joseph

[MiX]

vote: arishipshape for jumping on Joseph for what was clearly a joke (claiming a role not even in the setup) and treating it like a legit claim. Feels disingenuous.

I'm not treating it like a claim! I'm saying he lied, ergo he has a higher chance of being scum! Joking is not wise to do in a mafia game. Unless, of course, your goal is to spread confusion. Then joke all you want. Who do we know that benefits from confusion?

But you've seen what happened last time he did it: he was town and the claim did absolutely nothing. I think I speak for all of us when I say that Joseph saying "I am the SK" translates to "I am Joseph" when said by him and has no other meaning behind it.

I'm the SK

Well Joseph isn’t scum.

vote: Joseph

Vote: gkrieg

[gkrieg13]

vote: arishipshape for jumping on Joseph for what was clearly a joke (claiming a role not even in the setup) and treating it like a legit claim. Feels disingenuous.

I'm not treating it like a claim! I'm saying he lied, ergo he has a higher chance of being scum! Joking is not wise to do in a mafia game. Unless, of course, your goal is to spread confusion. Then joke all you want. Who do we know that benefits from confusion?

But you've seen what happened last time he did it: he was town and the claim did absolutely nothing. I think I speak for all of us when I say that Joseph saying "I am the SK" translates to "I am Joseph" when said by him and has no other meaning behind it.

I'm the SK

Well Joseph isn’t scum.

vote: Joseph

Vote: gkrieg

It is very established that you are right. That is just how Joseph starts games now.

[arishipshape]

I'm the SK

Well Joseph isn’t scum.

vote: Joseph

...WHAT? What even is this!? I'll grant you guys have a point about Joseph. But seriously, be precise in your speech town! Don't lie, don't be ambiguous, be consistent, be CLEAR! Saying Joseph isn't scum and then voting him makes zero sense. Vote:gkrieg13. I'm aware my vote flying around willy nilly probably looks scummy, but people keep disproving my points.

[EFHW]

Good morning everyone!

So the thought I had on the setup is that I think the town promoter (if they exist) should just claim off the bat. It would create a pseudo-IC and give us info on the setup without actually revealing anything to scum, and it isn't a PR that we're worried about scum knowing about since it's negative utility. So unless there's something that I'm missing, there's really no downside to them claiming.

How does it create a pseudo-IC? What stops the scum-aligned promoter from claiming town promoter?

This

[MiX]

Good morning everyone!

So the thought I had on the setup is that I think the town promoter (if they exist) should just claim off the bat. It would create a pseudo-IC and give us info on the setup without actually revealing anything to scum, and it isn't a PR that we're worried about scum knowing about since it's negative utility. So unless there's something that I'm missing, there's really no downside to them claiming.

How does it create a pseudo-IC? What stops the scum-aligned promoter from claiming town promoter?

This

They would risk getting caught eventually if the traitor ever flips.

To add something here: I think the only real drawback is that scum won't NK Promoter, which makes it easier to hit our good PRs. But getting an IC or a guaranteed lynch down the line is just soooo good I think the odds are in favour of claiming.

[EFHW]

I just had surgery, so I'm vla for awhile. I don't know exactly how long. After that I will have tons of time sitting at home

[faust]

I just had surgery, so I'm vla for awhile. I don't know exactly how long. After that I will have tons of time sitting at home

Oh wow, I hope everything went well. Have a swift recovery!

[faust]

Unrelated note: Well done gkrieg.

[faust]

Vote: ADK

[arishipshape]

Vote: ADK

Faust, is this a pressure vote, or do you have some sort of reason to believe A Drowned Kernel is scummy or something? Explain.

[faust]

Vote: ADK

Faust, is this a pressure vote, or do you have some sort of reason to believe A Drowned Kernel is scummy or something? Explain.

I have some sort of reason to vote for ADK.

[arishipshape]

Vote: ADK

Faust, is this a pressure vote, or do you have some sort of reason to believe A Drowned Kernel is scummy or something? Explain.

I have some sort of reason to vote for ADK.

...Would you care to explain this reason? Preferably in glorious detail?

[MiX]

Unrelated note: Well done gkrieg.

This reminds me: What's gkrieg's meta? With his, feel free to explain chairs joth and Galzria's metas as well, I just realized I haven't played with them yet.

Vote: ADK

Faust, is this a pressure vote, or do you have some sort of reason to believe A Drowned Kernel is scummy or something? Explain.

I have some sort of reason to vote for ADK.

...Would you care to explain this reason? Preferably in glorious detail?

Your time is better spent elsewhere.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm the SK

Well Joseph isn’t scum.

vote: Joseph

Yep, it's gotta be a vote: Joseph.

Nice to see you again, gkrieg :-)

I'm suddenly rather busier than I expected to be, so I'm kind of under-prepared for this game. I know get frustrated when people claim they haven't read the setup, but yeah, here's me more or less not having thought about anything at all yet. Sorry!

[Glooble]

This reminds me: What's gkrieg's meta? With his, feel free to explain chairs joth and Galzria's metas as well, I just realized I haven't played with them yet.

Joth tends to be very flippant and sarcastic, which sometimes makes people read him as scum, but it's actually not indicative of his alignment at all. He's not usually confrontational and tends to try to de-escalate when other players get heated towards one another.

Obligatory twinclaim: joth is my literal twin.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: ADK

Faust, is this a pressure vote, or do you have some sort of reason to believe A Drowned Kernel is scummy or something? Explain.

I have some sort of reason to vote for ADK.

And that is...?

[gkrieg13]

I'm the SK

Well Joseph isn’t scum.

vote: Joseph

...WHAT? What even is this!? I'll grant you guys have a point about Joseph. But seriously, be precise in your speech town! Don't lie, don't be ambiguous, be consistent, be CLEAR! Saying Joseph isn't scum and then voting him makes zero sense. Vote:gkrieg13. I'm aware my vote flying around willy nilly probably looks scummy, but people keep disproving my points.

lol, chill a little

[gkrieg13]

I just had surgery, so I'm vla for awhile. I don't know exactly how long. After that I will have tons of time sitting at home

Get well soon!

[gkrieg13]

I'm the SK

Well Joseph isn’t scum.

vote: Joseph

Yep, it's gotta be a vote: Joseph.

Nice to see you again, gkrieg :-)

I'm suddenly rather busier than I expected to be, so I'm kind of under-prepared for this game. I know get frustrated when people claim they haven't read the setup, but yeah, here's me more or less not having thought about anything at all yet. Sorry!

Nice to see you too! Though claiming not to have read the setup is obviously super disingenuous of you, so... vote: Space

[mcmcsalot]

Woooo so happy to be back!

Some quick setup info because I think it helps to make sure town is aware and scum will have discussed/analyzed the setup a lot.

There can only be one promoter and mafia (including traitor) know which one exists.
There is only one of the Jester/Lyncher existing and the cop/vengeful townie/psychologist/tracker know which one exists.

A promoter claim is scary.

If we have a town promoter their claim is okay, they become an ic when The Godfather flips but means nothing before then because it could be mafia lying.
If we have a town promoter and mafia pretends to claim it is a 1v1 which is great.
If we have a town promoter and the jester pretends to claim it is perfect for the jester. Mafia can easily avoid hammering as they know they are not the town promoter and not fake claiming.

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.
If we have a mafia promoter the mafia traitor could claim promoter to signify to the mafia they exist and they know there is no town promoter.
If we have a mafia promoter the jester could again claim to confuse people or counter claim which would make mafia(or traitor) aware of who the jester but would be forced to keep up the ruse and try to kill the jester.


What all this says to me is that the jester wants us to “force” a promoter claim really bad I think.
It also provides a potential way for the traitor to come out to their partners. In the end it does t help town that much either so I think strict no promoter claim is the right way to go.

[jotheonah]

I didn't know this started. Reading it now. Hi friends.

[mcmcsalot]

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.

[jotheonah]

Unrelated note: Well done gkrieg.

This reminds me: What's gkrieg's meta? With his, feel free to explain chairs joth and Galzria's metas as well, I just realized I haven't played with them yet.

Vote: ADK

Faust, is this a pressure vote, or do you have some sort of reason to believe A Drowned Kernel is scummy or something? Explain.

I have some sort of reason to vote for ADK.

...Would you care to explain this reason? Preferably in glorious detail?

Your time is better spent elsewhere.

My meta is a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a tortilla wrapped in a day 2 mislynch.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Woooo so happy to be back!

Some quick setup info because I think it helps to make sure town is aware and scum will have discussed/analyzed the setup a lot.

There can only be one promoter and mafia (including traitor) know which one exists.
There is only one of the Jester/Lyncher existing and the cop/vengeful townie/psychologist/tracker know which one exists.

A promoter claim is scary.

If we have a town promoter their claim is okay, they become an ic when The Godfather flips but means nothing before then because it could be mafia lying.
If we have a town promoter and mafia pretends to claim it is a 1v1 which is great.
If we have a town promoter and the jester pretends to claim it is perfect for the jester. Mafia can easily avoid hammering as they know they are not the town promoter and not fake claiming.

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.
If we have a mafia promoter the mafia traitor could claim promoter to signify to the mafia they exist and they know there is no town promoter.
If we have a mafia promoter the jester could again claim to confuse people or counter claim which would make mafia(or traitor) aware of who the jester but would be forced to keep up the ruse and try to kill the jester.


What all this says to me is that the jester wants us to “force” a promoter claim really bad I think.
It also provides a potential way for the traitor to come out to their partners. In the end it does t help town that much either so I think strict no promoter claim is the right way to go.

We can just confirm if a claimed promoter is lying by asking them at the start of the next day who they targeted, though, and if they don't get it right we know they're lying.

[jotheonah]

This reminds me: What's gkrieg's meta? With his, feel free to explain chairs joth and Galzria's metas as well, I just realized I haven't played with them yet.

Joth tends to be very flippant and sarcastic, which sometimes makes people read him as scum, but it's actually not indicative of his alignment at all. He's not usually confrontational and tends to try to de-escalate when other players get heated towards one another.

Obligatory twinclaim: joth is my literal twin.

Glooble's town meta is thoughtful, methodical play and sometimes digging himself in a big hole of suspicion by overreacting to votes on him as either alignment.

vote: Glooble

[A Drowned Kernel]

Woooo so happy to be back!

Some quick setup info because I think it helps to make sure town is aware and scum will have discussed/analyzed the setup a lot.

There can only be one promoter and mafia (including traitor) know which one exists.
There is only one of the Jester/Lyncher existing and the cop/vengeful townie/psychologist/tracker know which one exists.

A promoter claim is scary.

If we have a town promoter their claim is okay, they become an ic when The Godfather flips but means nothing before then because it could be mafia lying.
If we have a town promoter and mafia pretends to claim it is a 1v1 which is great.
If we have a town promoter and the jester pretends to claim it is perfect for the jester. Mafia can easily avoid hammering as they know they are not the town promoter and not fake claiming.

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.
If we have a mafia promoter the mafia traitor could claim promoter to signify to the mafia they exist and they know there is no town promoter.
If we have a mafia promoter the jester could again claim to confuse people or counter claim which would make mafia(or traitor) aware of who the jester but would be forced to keep up the ruse and try to kill the jester.


What all this says to me is that the jester wants us to “force” a promoter claim really bad I think.
It also provides a potential way for the traitor to come out to their partners. In the end it does t help town that much either so I think strict no promoter claim is the right way to go.

We can just confirm if a claimed promoter is lying by asking them at the start of the next day who they targeted, though, and if they don't get it right we know they're lying.

Well I just checked and gladiator is publicly announced. Well, that's worse then.

[jotheonah]

I am vehemently opposed to day 1 claiming of any kind on principle. I am also the Jester.

[jotheonah]

(I'm joking, I'm not the Jester)

[mcmcsalot]

Also the mafia promoter is devastatingly strong. Like we need them dead so so quickly.

[A Drowned Kernel]

joth is for sure the jester, got it.

[Glooble]

Also the mafia promoter is devastatingly strong. Like we need them dead so so quickly.

Why? If they choose one of their own, the town has a 50% chance of hitting scum. If they choose a town player they have no way to assure that player won't choose scum. Are the odds that any given town player correctly identifies scum really all that much worse than the odds of lynching scum on a given day? Especially considering that the gladiator doesn't have to choose their target immediately and can, if they wish, solicit the input of the rest of the town (72 hours is a decent amount of time)?

[mcmcsalot]

Also the mafia promoter is devastatingly strong. Like we need them dead so so quickly.

Why? If they choose one of their own, the town has a 50% chance of hitting scum. If they choose a town player they have no way to assure that player won't choose scum. Are the odds that any given town player correctly identifies scum really all that much worse than the odds of lynching scum on a given day? Especially considering that the gladiator doesn't have to choose their target immediately and can, if they wish, solicit the input of the rest of the town (72 hours is a decent amount of time)?

Right the gladiator chooses the second target. Scratch that.

[A Drowned Kernel]

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.

Isn't this part good though?

[MiX]

Mcmc's setup talk overestimates Jester fakeclaiming: If two people claim promoter, why would we assume there's scum between them? Two promoter claims do seem like a complete mess...one that could be figured out right now, because there's no reason to assume that it won't happen in future days. Unless you would rather have promoter be NKd to avoid it?

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.

Isn't this part good though?

Yes? Why wouldn't it be? But I doubt no one will claim promoter here.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Mcmc's setup talk overestimates Jester fakeclaiming: If two people claim promoter, why would we assume there's scum between them? Two promoter claims do seem like a complete mess...one that could be figured out right now, because there's no reason to assume that it won't happen in future days. Unless you would rather have promoter be NKd to avoid it?

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.

Isn't this part good though?

Yes? Why wouldn't it be? But I doubt no one will claim promoter here.

mcmc's whole post is that promoter claiming is bad, but this point seems to be a pretty good one in favor of the promoter claiming. And is that double negative intentional?

[arishipshape]

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.

I have one game to my name.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19407.0
In this game, I was scum. Feel free to read it over. Anyways, you are absolutely correct in my straightforwardness. I try not to mask, deceive, or be unclear in any way, shape, or form, so as to leave no room for any misinterpretation, which is a scum's friend.

[jotheonah]

If 2 Bodyguards target the same player and that player would die, both die, but they kill the attacker.
This doesn't work on the Cop.

When you say "this doesn't work on the cop", does that mean the bodyguards wouldn't protect the cop, the bodyguards would protect the cop but wouldn't die, the bodyguards would die but not kill the attacker, or what?

[MiX]

Mcmc's setup talk overestimates Jester fakeclaiming: If two people claim promoter, why would we assume there's scum between them? Two promoter claims do seem like a complete mess...one that could be figured out right now, because there's no reason to assume that it won't happen in future days. Unless you would rather have promoter be NKd to avoid it?

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.

Isn't this part good though?

Yes? Why wouldn't it be? But I doubt no one will claim promoter here.

mcmc's whole post is that promoter claiming is bad, but this point seems to be a pretty good one in favor of the promoter claiming. And is that double negative intentional?

If the double negative refers to the third part of my post then yes. "I believe someone will claim promoter" is a better way to phrase it. I suppose you're right saying that mcmc said that the most likely thing to happen is a pro-town thing, but that's only in half of the setups and it might not even happen. He's also right in that scum!Promoter won't claim and instead Traitor will, there's just no reason for them to claim.

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.

I have one game to my name.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19407.0
In this game, I was scum. Feel free to read it over. Anyways, you are absolutely correct in my straightforwardness. I try not to mask, deceive, or be unclear in any way, shape, or form, so as to leave no room for any misinterpretation, which is a scum's friend.

To be frank, you did the same things in the game you quoted.

If 2 Bodyguards target the same player and that player would die, both die, but they kill the attacker.
This doesn't work on the Cop.

When you say "this doesn't work on the cop", does that mean the bodyguards wouldn't protect the cop, the bodyguards would protect the cop but wouldn't die, the bodyguards would die but not kill the attacker, or what?

I'm assuming...nothing happens? Please?

[A Drowned Kernel]

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.

I have one game to my name.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19407.0
In this game, I was scum. Feel free to read it over. Anyways, you are absolutely correct in my straightforwardness. I try not to mask, deceive, or be unclear in any way, shape, or form, so as to leave no room for any misinterpretation, which is a scum's friend.

Question: do you think that joking and sarcasm, in players other than yourself, is a scumtell?

[MiX]

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.

I have one game to my name.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19407.0
In this game, I was scum. Feel free to read it over. Anyways, you are absolutely correct in my straightforwardness. I try not to mask, deceive, or be unclear in any way, shape, or form, so as to leave no room for any misinterpretation, which is a scum's friend.

Question: do you think that joking and sarcasm, in players other than yourself, is a scumtell?

Can I extend this question to sarcasm made by yourself (ari) as well?

[A Drowned Kernel]

If the double negative refers to the third part of my post then yes. "I believe someone will claim promoter" is a better way to phrase it. I suppose you're right saying that mcmc said that the most likely thing to happen is a pro-town thing, but that's only in half of the setups and it might not even happen. He's also right in that scum!Promoter won't claim and instead Traitor will, there's just no reason for them to claim.

Why do you believe someone will claim, given that there seems to be a fair bit of disagreement over whether it's a good thing?

[MiX]

If the double negative refers to the third part of my post then yes. "I believe someone will claim promoter" is a better way to phrase it. I suppose you're right saying that mcmc said that the most likely thing to happen is a pro-town thing, but that's only in half of the setups and it might not even happen. He's also right in that scum!Promoter won't claim and instead Traitor will, there's just no reason for them to claim.

Why do you believe someone will claim, given that there seems to be a fair bit of disagreement over whether it's a good thing?

I meant if town wants to go forward with this claim. The scenario that I'm discarding is "town says promoter should claim and no one claims, proving that the promoter's scum", that's a daydream that will never happen.

[A Drowned Kernel]

If the double negative refers to the third part of my post then yes. "I believe someone will claim promoter" is a better way to phrase it. I suppose you're right saying that mcmc said that the most likely thing to happen is a pro-town thing, but that's only in half of the setups and it might not even happen. He's also right in that scum!Promoter won't claim and instead Traitor will, there's just no reason for them to claim.

Why do you believe someone will claim, given that there seems to be a fair bit of disagreement over whether it's a good thing?

I meant if town wants to go forward with this claim. The scenario that I'm discarding is "town says promoter should claim and no one claims, proving that the promoter's scum", that's a daydream that will never happen.

Got it.

[Uncleeurope]

If 2 Bodyguards target the same player and that player would die, both die, but they kill the attacker.
This doesn't work on the Cop.

When you say "this doesn't work on the cop", does that mean the bodyguards wouldn't protect the cop, the bodyguards would protect the cop but wouldn't die, the bodyguards would die but not kill the attacker, or what?

The Macho Cap would be the only casualty.

[jotheonah]

Question for ADK and the pro-claim crew:

If a promoter claims, is our next move to try to direct their power use? I sort of like that since then the fake-claiming scum promoter is locked into using their power in a town-powered way or else giving themselves away.

[jotheonah]

Of course, the inverse is also true: We would give scum an opportunity to participate in directing the town promoter's action.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Question for ADK and the pro-claim crew:

If a promoter claims, is our next move to try to direct their power use? I sort of like that since then the fake-claiming scum promoter is locked into using their power in a town-powered way or else giving themselves away.

After mcmc's post I'm not 100% I'm on the pro-claim crew anymore.

That is another benefit to the promoter claiming, though.

[Swowl]

Hey everyone! Good to have another game on here

Summary of thoughts:

1) Promoter Claim - Since we don't know if there is a Promoter, combined with the chance that there is a Mafia Promoter instead of a Town Promoter who could claim and then even "prove it" if we were to force the target options on them... I am not seeing a super upside for a Promoter Claim. Additionally, the Town Promoter is potentially a very strong role if I understand it correctly... but its value only grows as the game goes on. They get to enhance reads, isolate based on claims, etc... and all of that increases the chances of finding good targets. So yeah... I think I am against the Promoter Claim because I think Skum would probably want to get rid of them.

2) Joth is def the Jester.

[Joseph2302]

Vote: arishipshape
Because I will not allow for him to lay low again. Prove your townieness!

Bring it on, MiX! I entirely deserve this vote, after my performance last game. However, I got my wish this game. I'm the good guy.  For the record I totally did NOT lay low last game, at least day 1. Anyways, finger of suspicion on Joseph for claiming SK. Yes, yes, it was obviously sarcastic, blah blah blah. In my experience, at least with ten minute mafia, when you claim a scum role, it improves the chances that you are scum. Besides, townies shouldn't pull that crap. It's lost so many games in the past. Just don't lie as town. Period. There's already two bandwagons out, so I'm not gonna start a new one. Vote: MiX, because last time I did that, I won. And Faust rocks, so I'm gonna follow his lead. For now.

The first two posts I do every game is to claim SK and then vote for someone from Real Life Mafia 1

[MiX]

Question for ADK and the pro-claim crew:

If a promoter claims, is our next move to try to direct their power use? I sort of like that since then the fake-claiming scum promoter is locked into using their power in a town-powered way or else giving themselves away.

After mcmc's post I'm not 100% I'm on the pro-claim crew anymore.

That is another benefit to the promoter claiming, though.

Right now I'm simply thinking: if the worst part of a promoter claim is a conflict, why delay it? So, ADK, why are you against claiming?

Directing the promoter will happen naturally after they claim, it's essencially inevitable, there's almost no reason to have an opinion on it, and if there is why say it?

Hey everyone! Good to have another game on here

Summary of thoughts:

1) Promoter Claim - Since we don't know if there is a Promoter, combined with the chance that there is a Mafia Promoter instead of a Town Promoter who could claim and then even "prove it" if we were to force the target options on them... I am not seeing a super upside for a Promoter Claim. Additionally, the Town Promoter is potentially a very strong role if I understand it correctly... but its value only grows as the game goes on. They get to enhance reads, isolate based on claims, etc... and all of that increases the chances of finding good targets. So yeah... I think I am against the Promoter Claim because I think Skum would probably want to get rid of them.

Vote: DatSwan for not reading the setup: there's always a Promoter. Not reading the setup seems like something scum!Swan would loooove to do since he performed that in RMM52, where he was town.

[jotheonah]

Directing the promoter will happen naturally after they claim, it's essencially inevitable, there's almost no reason to have an opinion on it, and if there is why say it?

Sure, but there's directing in the sense of "everybody has an opinion" and directing in the sense of "we're all going to vote on who you should use your power on, and if you use it on anybody else we'll lynch you on day 3".

[jotheonah]

Has all of the pre-game discussion been lost to the thread move?

[Joseph2302]

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.

I have one game to my name.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19407.0
In this game, I was scum. Feel free to read it over. Anyways, you are absolutely correct in my straightforwardness. I try not to mask, deceive, or be unclear in any way, shape, or form, so as to leave no room for any misinterpretation, which is a scum's friend.

You were obviously scum that game too. No idea how you got away with it.....

[jotheonah]

Nevermind, I found it. I wanted to point to the fact that I tried to claim Jester before the game started as evidence that it was, in fact, a joke.

Well, we're close to starting. I'm going to go ahead and claim Jester.

But you know, now that I've introduced the WIFOM I definitely can't put it back in the bag, so we'll leave that as a problem for another day.

[Joseph2302]

In an actual game usefulness, I support claiming. Worst case is we get 2+ claims and get some scum/jesters, best case we get an IC

PPE: 5?

[Glooble]

I'm confused about why we think scum won't just kill the town promoter right away if they claim.

Or are we okay with that?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Hey everyone! Good to have another game on here

Summary of thoughts:

1) Promoter Claim - Since we don't know if there is a Promoter, combined with the chance that there is a Mafia Promoter instead of a Town Promoter who could claim and then even "prove it" if we were to force the target options on them... I am not seeing a super upside for a Promoter Claim. Additionally, the Town Promoter is potentially a very strong role if I understand it correctly... but its value only grows as the game goes on. They get to enhance reads, isolate based on claims, etc... and all of that increases the chances of finding good targets. So yeah... I think I am against the Promoter Claim because I think Skum would probably want to get rid of them.

2) Joth is def the Jester.

I don't think the town promoter is a strong role, since it narrows the lynch pool by a lot, which diminishes the information that we get on days where it's in effect. And yeah, go read the setup, there's always either a mafia promoter or a town promoter.

I'm confused about why we think scum won't just kill the town promoter right away if they claim.

Or are we okay with that?

Given that it's negative utility, it's not the worst thing in the world.

[MiX]

Directing the promoter will happen naturally after they claim, it's essencially inevitable, there's almost no reason to have an opinion on it, and if there is why say it?

Sure, but there's directing in the sense of "everybody has an opinion" and directing in the sense of "we're all going to vote on who you should use your power on, and if you use it on anybody else we'll lynch you on day 3".

Hmm. If the latter happens, I suggest we lynch them D2 instead. Otherwise I believe voting's better, but it will most likely drag the game down. So it'll depend on how early promoter claims, the earlier the better. So, scum, claim now for town points! They're free!

I'm confused about why we think scum won't just kill the town promoter right away if they claim.

Or are we okay with that?

I am perfectly fine with killing Promoter if it means PRs have extra protection. There's also Bodyguards ready to die which makes a pseudo-IC stronger.

Nevermind, I found it. I wanted to point to the fact that I tried to claim Jester before the game started as evidence that it was, in fact, a joke.

Well, we're close to starting. I'm going to go ahead and claim Jester.

But you know, now that I've introduced the WIFOM I definitely can't put it back in the bag, so we'll leave that as a problem for another day.

Actually bringing this up is clearly some sort of setup to evade being the D1 lynch. I support it.

PPE: 1

[Glooble]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I don't think anyone's chance of guessing right is that good. It's like a vigilante; awesome if they guess right, terrible if they guess wrong, and their odds aren't good.

[A Drowned Kernel]

So, ADK, why are you against claiming?

I think the points are stacking up in favor of claiming at this point.

[Glooble]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I don't think anyone's chance of guessing right is that good. It's like a vigilante; awesome if they guess right, terrible if they guess wrong, and their odds aren't good.

Would you consider a compulsive vig-granter to be negative utility?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I don't think anyone's chance of guessing right is that good. It's like a vigilante; awesome if they guess right, terrible if they guess wrong, and their odds aren't good.

Would you consider a compulsive vig-granter to be negative utility?

Yes.

[Joseph2302]

Question for ADK and the pro-claim crew:

If a promoter claims, is our next move to try to direct their power use? I sort of like that since then the fake-claiming scum promoter is locked into using their power in a town-powered way or else giving themselves away.

After mcmc's post I'm not 100% I'm on the pro-claim crew anymore.

That is another benefit to the promoter claiming, though.

Right now I'm simply thinking: if the worst part of a promoter claim is a conflict, why delay it? So, ADK, why are you against claiming?

Directing the promoter will happen naturally after they claim, it's essencially inevitable, there's almost no reason to have an opinion on it, and if there is why say it?

Hey everyone! Good to have another game on here

Summary of thoughts:

1) Promoter Claim - Since we don't know if there is a Promoter, combined with the chance that there is a Mafia Promoter instead of a Town Promoter who could claim and then even "prove it" if we were to force the target options on them... I am not seeing a super upside for a Promoter Claim. Additionally, the Town Promoter is potentially a very strong role if I understand it correctly... but its value only grows as the game goes on. They get to enhance reads, isolate based on claims, etc... and all of that increases the chances of finding good targets. So yeah... I think I am against the Promoter Claim because I think Skum would probably want to get rid of them.

Vote: DatSwan for not reading the setup: there's always a Promoter. Not reading the setup seems like something scum!Swan would loooove to do since he performed that in RMM52, where he was town.

How is there always a promoter? Am I reading the setup wrong? There's 4 quadrants and we get the 4 things in that quadrant, right?
And only 2 of these have a promoter. ......

[A Drowned Kernel]

Question for ADK and the pro-claim crew:

If a promoter claims, is our next move to try to direct their power use? I sort of like that since then the fake-claiming scum promoter is locked into using their power in a town-powered way or else giving themselves away.

After mcmc's post I'm not 100% I'm on the pro-claim crew anymore.

That is another benefit to the promoter claiming, though.

Right now I'm simply thinking: if the worst part of a promoter claim is a conflict, why delay it? So, ADK, why are you against claiming?

Directing the promoter will happen naturally after they claim, it's essencially inevitable, there's almost no reason to have an opinion on it, and if there is why say it?

Hey everyone! Good to have another game on here

Summary of thoughts:

1) Promoter Claim - Since we don't know if there is a Promoter, combined with the chance that there is a Mafia Promoter instead of a Town Promoter who could claim and then even "prove it" if we were to force the target options on them... I am not seeing a super upside for a Promoter Claim. Additionally, the Town Promoter is potentially a very strong role if I understand it correctly... but its value only grows as the game goes on. They get to enhance reads, isolate based on claims, etc... and all of that increases the chances of finding good targets. So yeah... I think I am against the Promoter Claim because I think Skum would probably want to get rid of them.

Vote: DatSwan for not reading the setup: there's always a Promoter. Not reading the setup seems like something scum!Swan would loooove to do since he performed that in RMM52, where he was town.

How is there always a promoter? Am I reading the setup wrong? There's 4 quadrants and we get the 4 things in that quadrant, right?
And only 2 of these have a promoter. ......

We have two quadrants, either the top two, the bottom two, the left two, or the right two.

[faust]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

If town guesses right and lynches scum, it even increases our chance of lynching scum to 100%.

[faust]

Vote: ADK

Faust, is this a pressure vote, or do you have some sort of reason to believe A Drowned Kernel is scummy or something? Explain.

I have some sort of reason to vote for ADK.

...Would you care to explain this reason? Preferably in glorious detail?

Vote: ADK

Faust, is this a pressure vote, or do you have some sort of reason to believe A Drowned Kernel is scummy or something? Explain.

I have some sort of reason to vote for ADK.

And that is...?

It's cute how you think I post an unexplained vote and then explain it just because you ask nicely.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: ADK

Faust, is this a pressure vote, or do you have some sort of reason to believe A Drowned Kernel is scummy or something? Explain.

I have some sort of reason to vote for ADK.

...Would you care to explain this reason? Preferably in glorious detail?

Vote: ADK

Faust, is this a pressure vote, or do you have some sort of reason to believe A Drowned Kernel is scummy or something? Explain.

I have some sort of reason to vote for ADK.

And that is...?

It's cute how you think I post an unexplained vote and then explain it just because you ask nicely.

It was worth a shot.

[faust]

Unrelated note: Well done gkrieg.

This reminds me: What's gkrieg's meta? With his, feel free to explain chairs joth and Galzria's metas as well, I just realized I haven't played with them yet.

Let's just say if gkrieg were the Traitor, we'd already know...

Seriously, gkrieg tends to have pretty good reads as town but for some reason people read him scummy and he gets mislynched frequently. As scum he's much easier to detect IRL. chairs is like always kind of excited when he starts playing, and then something terrible happens in his life and he can't participate. He's also very much a gut feeling kind of player. joth I feel I haven't really played with enough yet. Galzria's current meta is unfortunately that he lurks until he is replaced.

[faust]

How is there always a promoter? Am I reading the setup wrong? There's 4 quadrants and we get the 4 things in that quadrant, right?
And only 2 of these have a promoter. ......

I sure hope we're in one of the scenarios that have only 1 scum!

[faust]

How is there always a promoter? Am I reading the setup wrong? There's 4 quadrants and we get the 4 things in that quadrant, right?
And only 2 of these have a promoter. ......

I sure hope we're in one of the scenarios that have only 1 scum!

*technically 2

[jotheonah]

Directing the promoter will happen naturally after they claim, it's essencially inevitable, there's almost no reason to have an opinion on it, and if there is why say it?

Sure, but there's directing in the sense of "everybody has an opinion" and directing in the sense of "we're all going to vote on who you should use your power on, and if you use it on anybody else we'll lynch you on day 3".

Hmm. If the latter happens, I suggest we lynch them D2 instead. Otherwise I believe voting's better, but it will most likely drag the game down. So it'll depend on how early promoter claims, the earlier the better. So, scum, claim now for town points! They're free!

But can we lynch them day 2? I thought the whole promoter/gladiator thing meant we can't lynch anybody we want to day 2...

[mcmcsalot]

Mcmc's setup talk overestimates Jester fakeclaiming: If two people claim promoter, why would we assume there's scum between them? Two promoter claims do seem like a complete mess...one that could be figured out right now, because there's no reason to assume that it won't happen in future days. Unless you would rather have promoter be NKd to avoid it?

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.

Isn't this part good though?

Yes? Why wouldn't it be? But I doubt no one will claim promoter here.

Exactly, my post was meant to lay out all the potential scenarios in a forced promoter claim and unfortunately I think the good scenarios are not super helpful and are far less likely than the bad scenarios.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: MiX

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

[Glooble]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

It happens a lot here. I don’t get it either. Sometimes it’s like a gambit. I’ve never seen such a gambit succeed, mind you.

[MiX]

Sure, but there's directing in the sense of "everybody has an opinion" and directing in the sense of "we're all going to vote on who you should use your power on, and if you use it on anybody else we'll lynch you on day 3".

Hmm. If the latter happens, I suggest we lynch them D2 instead. Otherwise I believe voting's better, but it will most likely drag the game down. So it'll depend on how early promoter claims, the earlier the better. So, scum, claim now for town points! They're free!

But can we lynch them day 2? I thought the whole promoter/gladiator thing meant we can't lynch anybody we want to day 2...

The gladiator will simply challenge the promoter after seeing that the gladiator is not who town decided promoter would target.

Mcmc's setup talk overestimates Jester fakeclaiming: If two people claim promoter, why would we assume there's scum between them? Two promoter claims do seem like a complete mess...one that could be figured out right now, because there's no reason to assume that it won't happen in future days. Unless you would rather have promoter be NKd to avoid it?

If we have a mafia promoter most likely they won’t claim and then all non mafia power roles will instantly know the entire setup.

Isn't this part good though?

Yes? Why wouldn't it be? But I doubt no one will claim promoter here.

Exactly, my post was meant to lay out all the potential scenarios in a forced promoter claim and unfortunately I think the good scenarios are not super helpful and are far less likely than the bad scenarios.

Do you believe conflict shenanigans are worse than outing promoter if Traitor dies (or vice-versa)? Because as of right now the only problem I see with the claim is if someone else counterclaims: the role is sufficiently anti-town to be exposed and pro-town to be left alive (whichever scum desires). So, why, exactly, do you think claiming is worse?

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

It's pretty funny to do so as town and it's a great way to hide as scum, essencially it's the perfect meta for everyone.

PPE 1: Yeah, that's another way of saying it.

[Joseph2302]

Question for ADK and the pro-claim crew:

If a promoter claims, is our next move to try to direct their power use? I sort of like that since then the fake-claiming scum promoter is locked into using their power in a town-powered way or else giving themselves away.

After mcmc's post I'm not 100% I'm on the pro-claim crew anymore.

That is another benefit to the promoter claiming, though.

Right now I'm simply thinking: if the worst part of a promoter claim is a conflict, why delay it? So, ADK, why are you against claiming?

Directing the promoter will happen naturally after they claim, it's essencially inevitable, there's almost no reason to have an opinion on it, and if there is why say it?

Hey everyone! Good to have another game on here

Summary of thoughts:

1) Promoter Claim - Since we don't know if there is a Promoter, combined with the chance that there is a Mafia Promoter instead of a Town Promoter who could claim and then even "prove it" if we were to force the target options on them... I am not seeing a super upside for a Promoter Claim. Additionally, the Town Promoter is potentially a very strong role if I understand it correctly... but its value only grows as the game goes on. They get to enhance reads, isolate based on claims, etc... and all of that increases the chances of finding good targets. So yeah... I think I am against the Promoter Claim because I think Skum would probably want to get rid of them.

Vote: DatSwan for not reading the setup: there's always a Promoter. Not reading the setup seems like something scum!Swan would loooove to do since he performed that in RMM52, where he was town.

How is there always a promoter? Am I reading the setup wrong? There's 4 quadrants and we get the 4 things in that quadrant, right?
And only 2 of these have a promoter. ......

We have two quadrants, either the top two, the bottom two, the left two, or the right two.

Makes sense. If only i could do maths I could have realised that 1 quadrant is just 10 people.....

[Joseph2302]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

Vote: ADK

[Joseph2302]

I still think claiming is good though. Because a vig is swung as fuck anyway, and a compulsive one isn't great anyway

[MiX]

Mini reread:

Vote: ADK. Still want to hear more from Swan, however.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

I think MiX is scum pushing for traitor to claim. Mild suspicion

[Swowl]

Question for ADK and the pro-claim crew:

If a promoter claims, is our next move to try to direct their power use? I sort of like that since then the fake-claiming scum promoter is locked into using their power in a town-powered way or else giving themselves away.

After mcmc's post I'm not 100% I'm on the pro-claim crew anymore.

That is another benefit to the promoter claiming, though.

Right now I'm simply thinking: if the worst part of a promoter claim is a conflict, why delay it? So, ADK, why are you against claiming?

Directing the promoter will happen naturally after they claim, it's essencially inevitable, there's almost no reason to have an opinion on it, and if there is why say it?

Hey everyone! Good to have another game on here

Summary of thoughts:

1) Promoter Claim - Since we don't know if there is a Promoter, combined with the chance that there is a Mafia Promoter instead of a Town Promoter who could claim and then even "prove it" if we were to force the target options on them... I am not seeing a super upside for a Promoter Claim. Additionally, the Town Promoter is potentially a very strong role if I understand it correctly... but its value only grows as the game goes on. They get to enhance reads, isolate based on claims, etc... and all of that increases the chances of finding good targets. So yeah... I think I am against the Promoter Claim because I think Skum would probably want to get rid of them.

Vote: DatSwan for not reading the setup: there's always a Promoter. Not reading the setup seems like something scum!Swan would loooove to do since he performed that in RMM52, where he was town.

I could be missing something, but I did specify in my post the distinction of Mafia vs Town Promoter. Am i missing something or is it you that needs to read the set up?

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

I think MiX is scum pushing for traitor to claim. Mild suspicion

I don't think a traitor would claim, though; it's too easy for them to get caught.

[Galzria]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

I think MiX is scum pushing for traitor to claim. Mild suspicion

This is kinda where I’m at. There’s one other person that I’ve felt has knowledge of the setup and is trying to push a certain action, but I’m not ready to vote there.

vote: MiX

[Galzria]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

This is also pretty accurate.

There are some town that honestly, incorrectly, believe that the role is negative utility. If there’s a scum!Promoter, then it’s a fairly valuable tool, and they aren’t going to claim. Being able to force a lynch between {Town*:X} is quite strong. If it’s a town!Promoter, it’s also rather valuable, as they’ll get to ensure their top scum read is one of two players to be lynchable the following day - and if that player happens to be town, they’ll likely be challenging their own top scum read. I’ll take that any day.

If it’s a Scum!Promoter, they aren’t claiming. If it’s a town!promoter, scum (plus some misguided town) want that player dead.

My expectations are that thus far scum has sided with “Should Claims” and “Neutrals” if it’s a town!promoter, and have been wherever they feel like if it’s a scum!promoter, as they have no intention of claiming anyway.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 1.0

Uncleeurope couldn't decide if he should write meaningless flavor on his vote count. He figured he would decide later.

A Drowned Kernel (3): faust, Joseph2302, MiX
MiX (2): mcmcsalot, Galzria
arishipshape (1): Glooble
SpaceAnemone (1): gkrieg13
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
Glooble (1): jotheonah

Not voting (4): DatSwan, chairs, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW


With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
Day 1 ends Wednesday, 1st of May, at 5:30 ft.

[Swowl]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I mean I’ll be capt obvious here:
Given the size of the game, if there is a town promoter, on Night 1 they could either:
1) target themselves and another the next day. 1 town, 1 unknown. This assuredly ends in them claiming meaning the other player is x/11 chance of skum.

2) If there is no promoter, we as town lynch someone tomorrow who has... an x/12 chance of being skum... but we get to decide collectively.

All in all i think promoter is neg utility to exist at all because it forces isolation to 2 people the next day instead of people getting to pick who they focus on from the group - so it limits discussion.

I mean talked to death at this point. I don’t think the claim makes any sense, and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not.

[Galzria]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I mean I’ll be capt obvious here:
Given the size of the game, if there is a town promoter, on Night 1 they could either:
1) target themselves and another the next day. 1 town, 1 unknown. This assuredly ends in them claiming meaning the other player is x/11 chance of skum.

2) If there is no promoter, we as town lynch someone tomorrow who has... an x/12 chance of being skum... but we get to decide collectively.

All in all i think promoter is neg utility to exist at all because it forces isolation to 2 people the next day instead of people getting to pick who they focus on from the group - so it limits discussion.

I mean talked to death at this point. I don’t think the claim makes any sense, and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not.

You already know that one exists. You just don’t know if they are scum or town.

[Swowl]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I mean I’ll be capt obvious here:
Given the size of the game, if there is a town promoter, on Night 1 they could either:
1) target themselves and another the next day. 1 town, 1 unknown. This assuredly ends in them claiming meaning the other player is x/11 chance of skum.

2) If there is no promoter, we as town lynch someone tomorrow who has... an x/12 chance of being skum... but we get to decide collectively.

All in all i think promoter is neg utility to exist at all because it forces isolation to 2 people the next day instead of people getting to pick who they focus on from the group - so it limits discussion.

I mean talked to death at this point. I don’t think the claim makes any sense, and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not.

You already know that one exists. You just don’t know if they are scum or town.

Right but i don’t think anyone is arguing the negative utility of the skum version.

[Galzria]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I mean I’ll be capt obvious here:
Given the size of the game, if there is a town promoter, on Night 1 they could either:
1) target themselves and another the next day. 1 town, 1 unknown. This assuredly ends in them claiming meaning the other player is x/11 chance of skum.

2) If there is no promoter, we as town lynch someone tomorrow who has... an x/12 chance of being skum... but we get to decide collectively.

All in all i think promoter is neg utility to exist at all because it forces isolation to 2 people the next day instead of people getting to pick who they focus on from the group - so it limits discussion.

I mean talked to death at this point. I don’t think the claim makes any sense, and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not.

You already know that one exists. You just don’t know if they are scum or town.

Right but i don’t think anyone is arguing the negative utility of the skum version.

What?

I’m not talking utility, positive or negative, for either faction here. You said: “... and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not”. There is no “or not” - a Promoter exists, and their power is compulsive.

[Swowl]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I mean I’ll be capt obvious here:
Given the size of the game, if there is a town promoter, on Night 1 they could either:
1) target themselves and another the next day. 1 town, 1 unknown. This assuredly ends in them claiming meaning the other player is x/11 chance of skum.

2) If there is no promoter, we as town lynch someone tomorrow who has... an x/12 chance of being skum... but we get to decide collectively.

All in all i think promoter is neg utility to exist at all because it forces isolation to 2 people the next day instead of people getting to pick who they focus on from the group - so it limits discussion.

I mean talked to death at this point. I don’t think the claim makes any sense, and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not.

You already know that one exists. You just don’t know if they are scum or town.

Right but i don’t think anyone is arguing the negative utility of the skum version.

What?

I’m not talking utility, positive or negative, for either faction here. You said: “... and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not”. There is no “or not” - a Promoter exists, and their power is compulsive.

Ah i see your point - we wouldn’t know which is which.... which seems obvious now that i say it out loud. Whatever - i stand by my utility point

[faust]

My expectations are that thus far scum has sided with “Should Claims” and “Neutrals” if it’s a town!promoter, and have been wherever they feel like if it’s a scum!promoter, as they have no intention of claiming anyway.

I don't think that kind of reasoning is fruitful. Scum have taken the side that they believe is the correct play. It does not pay off for them to lie about this stuff. What I will say is that scum probably happily engaged in all this setup talk that brings us nowhere.

[Galzria]

My expectations are that thus far scum has sided with “Should Claims” and “Neutrals” if it’s a town!promoter, and have been wherever they feel like if it’s a scum!promoter, as they have no intention of claiming anyway.

I don't think that kind of reasoning is fruitful. Scum have taken the side that they believe is the correct play. It does not pay off for them to lie about this stuff. What I will say is that scum probably happily engaged in all this setup talk that brings us nowhere.

I disagree.

[Swowl]

My expectations are that thus far scum has sided with “Should Claims” and “Neutrals” if it’s a town!promoter, and have been wherever they feel like if it’s a scum!promoter, as they have no intention of claiming anyway.

I don't think that kind of reasoning is fruitful. Scum have taken the side that they believe is the correct play. It does not pay off for them to lie about this stuff. What I will say is that scum probably happily engaged in all this setup talk that brings us nowhere.

I disagree.

Could be a middle ground - if skum has the promoter they would know there is no town promoter. So, fairly easy day 1 plan could be to start the convo to “waste time”, knowing there will be no claim, and then tomorrow come out with “I’m the town promoter and targeted this person”.

They could even parlay that tomorrow if they got suspected, which would inevitably force a claim. If they already know A-D is in play, they would want to get rid of as many from B-D as they could so that could be a plan.


Side note - that is a super reach theory in detail, but the initial premise is something that should be remembered going forward.

[MiX]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

I think MiX is scum pushing for traitor to claim. Mild suspicion

That's pretty much the answer I got when analyzing the promoter claim, yeah. I assume whoever's Traitor has thought about this, right?

I still think we should force a claim, especially as it seems scum won't claim: it would be useful to know what setup we're in. It seems to be bad if there's a town Promoter, however...but I'm willing to gamble here given we don't know that. What we should do is force a claim as early as possible so the Promoter has a chance to claim AND so we can conclude no one claimed after a certain time has passed. Unfortunately it seems we're disagreeing, so that won't happen soon.

As for "setup talk that gets us nowhere", if you have another topic you wish to talk about, go ahead. "You" here is collectively, of course.

[faust]

As for "setup talk that gets us nowhere", if you have another topic you wish to talk about, go ahead. "You" here is collectively, of course.

Here's a crazy out there suggestion: We could talk about who we think is scum. For example, what is your opinion on everyone's favorite scumsters ADK and DatSwan?

[MiX]

As for "setup talk that gets us nowhere", if you have another topic you wish to talk about, go ahead. "You" here is collectively, of course.

Here's a crazy out there suggestion: We could talk about who we think is scum. For example, what is your opinion on everyone's favorite scumsters ADK and DatSwan?

Yeah, I was thinking about it, but I just got townreads from the conversation so I had nothing that I wanted to talk about...

Swan seems townier...whereas ADK seemed to do things I loved to do when I was scum.

[faust]

Here"s a notable setup point worth discussing: We can still lynch whoever we want on D2 if we do it before the 72 hour deadline for the Gladiator expires.

[Joseph2302]

Here"s a notable setup point worth discussing: We can still lynch whoever we want on D2 if we do it before the 72 hour deadline for the Gladiator expires.

Now that's interesting

[A Drowned Kernel]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

This is also pretty accurate.

There are some town that honestly, incorrectly, believe that the role is negative utility. If there’s a scum!Promoter, then it’s a fairly valuable tool, and they aren’t going to claim. Being able to force a lynch between {Town*:X} is quite strong. If it’s a town!Promoter, it’s also rather valuable, as they’ll get to ensure their top scum read is one of two players to be lynchable the following day - and if that player happens to be town, they’ll likely be challenging their own top scum read. I’ll take that any day.

If it’s a Scum!Promoter, they aren’t claiming. If it’s a town!promoter, scum (plus some misguided town) want that player dead.

My expectations are that thus far scum has sided with “Should Claims” and “Neutrals” if it’s a town!promoter, and have been wherever they feel like if it’s a scum!promoter, as they have no intention of claiming anyway.

I think that you're overestimating the power of the town promoter. My expectation is that more likely than not, they'll target town, and more likely than not, their target will target town. If it was a useful ability, you wouldn't need to make it compulsive.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Here"s a notable setup point worth discussing: We can still lynch whoever we want on D2 if we do it before the 72 hour deadline for the Gladiator expires.

Now that's interesting

How so?

[MiX]

Here"s a notable setup point worth discussing: We can still lynch whoever we want on D2 if we do it before the 72 hour deadline for the Gladiator expires.

Since when does town decide on a lynch in 72 hours? All the games I've been town delayed lynching all the way to deadline and I doubt the existence of Promoter will change this, especially as early as D2.

[jotheonah]

As for "setup talk that gets us nowhere", if you have another topic you wish to talk about, go ahead. "You" here is collectively, of course.

Here's a crazy out there suggestion: We could talk about who we think is scum. For example, what is your opinion on everyone's favorite scumsters ADK and DatSwan?

Townread on Datswan. I don’t think scum faking not knowing the setup is a thing and I don’t think acum not knowing the setup is a thing.

Slight scumread on ADK, but I’m not vote-level confident.

Townread on faust, which increases the likelihood that he’s scum.

[MiX]

Vote: joth because he has the same reads as me and I would love to know how he plays.

[faust]

Townread on Datswan. I don’t think scum faking not knowing the setup is a thing and I don’t think acum not knowing the setup is a thing.

I for one don't think there is evidence to support the idea that DatSwan didn't read the setup.

[faust]

Slight scumread on ADK, but I’m not vote-level confident.

Am I to take from this that you think Glooble (who you're currently voting for) is scummier than ADK?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Of the people who have participated in the setup discussion:

MiX- I'm leaning town, his posts tend to have an organic feel to them
joth- Leaning scum, his posts seem more reactive and less "rock-the-boat"
mcmc- The idea that MiX is/was traitor hunting seems like a reach to me, but also looks like genuine scumhunting, so some townpoints
galz- Disagreement on the power level of promoter aside, I think his post about where scum falls in the discussion was a little scummy; it looks like he's making a definitive statement without committing him to any particular read
faust- I can never read faust, I'll just assume that he's town for now
datswan- seems confused about the setup, his posts confuse me so I'm confused as to where his confusion actually lies. Pretty much null here.

vote: joth

[MiX]

Hot take: ADK and joth are both anti-town. Disregard this for now, just adding this to the predictions I made in my first post. I'll keep my vote anyway.

...My posts are bigger when I'm talking about setup. Maybe this is why scum loves it.

[Glooble]

Of the people who have participated in the setup discussion:

MiX- I'm leaning town, his posts tend to have an organic feel to them
joth- Leaning scum, his posts seem more reactive and less "rock-the-boat"
mcmc- The idea that MiX is/was traitor hunting seems like a reach to me, but also looks like genuine scumhunting, so some townpoints
galz- Disagreement on the power level of promoter aside, I think his post about where scum falls in the discussion was a little scummy; it looks like he's making a definitive statement without committing him to any particular read
faust- I can never read faust, I'll just assume that he's town for now
datswan- seems confused about the setup, his posts confuse me so I'm confused as to where his confusion actually lies. Pretty much null here.

vote: joth

What am I, chopped liver?

[Glooble]

In all seriousness, though, I am kind of a bizarre omission from that post, given that ADK and I had a direct exchange concerning the setup.

[faust]

In all seriousness, though, I am kind of a bizarre omission from that post, given that ADK and I had a direct exchange concerning the setup.

What are your conclusions from this?

[jotheonah]

Slight scumread on ADK, but I’m not vote-level confident.

Am I to take from this that you think Glooble (who you're currently voting for) is scummier than ADK?

No that was an RVS vote that I completely forgot about. Glooble is reading very town to me.

unvote

[jotheonah]

in fact vote: ADK

[A Drowned Kernel]

In all seriousness, though, I am kind of a bizarre omission from that post, given that ADK and I had a direct exchange concerning the setup.

That was awhile ago. Looking back at your posts, my question for you is, what info were you hoping to get out of asking me if I thought that a compulsive vig was negative utility?

[jotheonah]

Honestly, if you think of the promoter as a vig of sorts, everything becomes much clearer:We shouldn't try to identify or control them, and furthermore I consider ADK's efforts to control them highly scummy. Scum is afraid of a vig, and they're extra afraid of a compulsive vig they can't control or predict. Let's let our town power role do their thing.

[Glooble]

In all seriousness, though, I am kind of a bizarre omission from that post, given that ADK and I had a direct exchange concerning the setup.

What are your conclusions from this?

I don't know it's just weird. If he'd actually reread all the way back he would have seen that I was the first person to push back against the idea that the town promoter is a negative utility role, which I think ought to have given him some kind of read on me. If he didn't reread and was just going off his memory I think he would have remembered that interaction. He singles you out despite not having a read on you at all so why doesn't he mention me?


I'm not seeing anything scummy necessarily, just odd. I can't explain it.

PPE 1

In all seriousness, though, I am kind of a bizarre omission from that post, given that ADK and I had a direct exchange concerning the setup.

That was awhile ago. Looking back at your posts, my question for you is, what info were you hoping to get out of asking me if I thought that a compulsive vig was negative utility?

Just trying to understand where you were coming from, honestly. Just in terms of why you thought the promoter was negative utility. It you'd said no I would have pushed back.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Honestly, if you think of the promoter as a vig of sorts, everything becomes much clearer:We shouldn't try to identify or control them, and furthermore I consider ADK's efforts to control them highly scummy. Scum is afraid of a vig, and they're extra afraid of a compulsive vig they can't control or predict. Let's let our town power role do their thing.

Man, I wish I had the faith in vigs that you guys seem to.

[faust]

Honestly, if you think of the promoter as a vig of sorts, everything becomes much clearer: you are wrong.

FTFY

The advantage of a vig is that it provides additional town-controlled kills. Promoter cannot do that.

[jotheonah]

Honestly, if you think of the promoter as a vig of sorts, everything becomes much clearer: you are wrong.

FTFY

The advantage of a vig is that it provides additional town-controlled kills. Promoter cannot do that.

It provides additional town control over the kill, which is similar.

[faust]

Honestly, if you think of the promoter as a vig of sorts, everything becomes much clearer: you are wrong.

FTFY

The advantage of a vig is that it provides additional town-controlled kills. Promoter cannot do that.

It provides additional town control over the kill, which is similar.

No it doesn't and it isn't.

[jotheonah]

Honestly, if you think of the promoter as a vig of sorts, everything becomes much clearer:We shouldn't try to identify or control them, and furthermore I consider ADK's efforts to control them highly scummy. Scum is afraid of a vig, and they're extra afraid of a compulsive vig they can't control or predict. Let's let our town power role do their thing.

Man, I wish I had the faith in vigs that you guys seem to.

When you're on a team, you should trust your teammates. I find faust's argument that promoter = vig is a flawed analogy more convincing than your argument that vigs are negative utility.

[jotheonah]

Vote: joth because he has the same reads as me and I would love to know how he plays.

I'm an open book. AMA.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Honestly, if you think of the promoter as a vig of sorts, everything becomes much clearer:We shouldn't try to identify or control them, and furthermore I consider ADK's efforts to control them highly scummy. Scum is afraid of a vig, and they're extra afraid of a compulsive vig they can't control or predict. Let's let our town power role do their thing.

Man, I wish I had the faith in vigs that you guys seem to.

When you're on a team, you should trust your teammates. I find faust's argument that promoter = vig is a flawed analogy more convincing than your argument that vigs are negative utility.

Are faust and I arguing on opposite sides? I don't think faust has come down as pro or anti claim. All he's said so far is that I'm scummy, I'm guessing from his later posts because I wanted to talk about the setup.

[jotheonah]

No I think you're arguing the same thing in different ways, and I'm just saying his is better.

[A Drowned Kernel]

No I think you're arguing the same thing in different ways, and I'm just saying his is better.

Is this related to your scumread on me, or tangential?

[MiX]

I feel like we're focusing a lot on ADK and joth, once this is settled I'll need to see how this came to be.

in fact vote: ADK

Why? Just, why? I'll also use this to say that joth is simply ASSUMING promoter is town when talking about it, something that we do not know. Clearly, the claim shouldn't be forced if we knew promoter was town, since we could trust them to know when to claim.

I agree with Glooble that it was pretty weird how Glooble wasn't mentioned. But I don't think it's that important, speaks more about Glooble than ADK to me.

Vote: joth because he has the same reads as me and I would love to know how he plays.

I'm an open book. AMA.

What do you think of me?

[jotheonah]

No I think you're arguing the same thing in different ways, and I'm just saying his is better.

Is this related to your scumread on me, or tangential?

Tangential.

I feel like we're focusing a lot on ADK and joth, once this is settled I'll need to see how this came to be.

in fact vote: ADK

Why? Just, why? I'll also use this to say that joth is simply ASSUMING promoter is town when talking about it, something that we do not know. Clearly, the claim shouldn't be forced if we knew promoter was town, since we could trust them to know when to claim.

I agree with Glooble that it was pretty weird how Glooble wasn't mentioned. But I don't think it's that important, speaks more about Glooble than ADK to me.

Vote: joth because he has the same reads as me and I would love to know how he plays.

I'm an open book. AMA.

What do you think of me?

A) I'm going to sheep faust, both in my vote for ADK and in my refusal to explain it.
B) We were specifically talking about the utility of a town promoter, so that's where my head was. Also, we can't really force a scum promoter to claim, so realistically a forced claim is going to land on a town promoter.
C) My main experience with you so far was a mod's eye view of DS9, in which you were a serial killer, which is not a super-helpful precedent. So I haven't figured out how to read you yet. You strike me as the sort of person who is easy to misread as scummy when you're town, but that also makes it hard to tell if you're scum.

[A Drowned Kernel]

A) I'm going to sheep faust, both in my vote for ADK and in my refusal to explain it.

Terrible.

[MiX]

A) I'm going to sheep faust, both in my vote for ADK and in my refusal to explain it.
B) We were specifically talking about the utility of a town promoter, so that's where my head was. Also, we can't really force a scum promoter to claim, so realistically a forced claim is going to land on a town promoter.
C) My main experience with you so far was a mod's eye view of DS9, in which you were a serial killer, which is not a super-helpful precedent. So I haven't figured out how to read you yet. You strike me as the sort of person who is easy to misread as scummy when you're town, but that also makes it hard to tell if you're scum.

A) Do you believe you're voting for ADK for the same reasons faust is? And also: do you care if this is true or not?
B) That's fair, I suppose. I still believe we should force a claim so we can say "no one claimed" with absolute certainty.
C) It's helpful enough: it should tell you everything I thought about when getting a scum role. Having partners changes it, but only somewhat, I presume. And yes, I think my previous games showed that it's easier to lynch me as town, I can get pretty sneaky as scum...I miss it.

A) I'm going to sheep faust, both in my vote for ADK and in my refusal to explain it.

Terrible.

Why are you voting for joth again?

[jotheonah]

A) Do you believe you're voting for ADK for the same reasons faust is? And also: do you care if this is true or not?

No and no.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Why are you voting for joth again?

At time I voted, his reads seemed both sheepy and non-committal. At this point it might be a little OMGUS, but I just don't read his read on me as genuine.

[jotheonah]

Why are you voting for joth again?

At time I voted, his reads seemed both sheepy and non-committal. At this point it might be a little OMGUS, but I just don't read his read on me as genuine.

It’s day one and nothing has happened, of course my reads are noncommittal. I’d be worried if anyone had conviction at this point.

[gkrieg13]

Honestly, if you think of the promoter as a vig of sorts, everything becomes much clearer: you are wrong.

FTFY

The advantage of a vig is that it provides additional town-controlled kills. Promoter cannot do that.

I agree here.

[gkrieg13]

Vote: joth because he has the same reads as me and I would love to know how he plays.

vote: MiX for this awful vote.

[Glooble]

vote: chairs for not having shown up yet.

[MiX]

Vote: joth because he has the same reads as me and I would love to know how he plays.

vote: MiX for this awful vote.

It is pretty bad, yes. My scumread on joth grew since then but now it's dying off...

vote: chairs for not having shown up yet.

Eh, why not

Vote: chairs, I need to reread to solidify some gut reads anyway.

[Joseph2302]

Vote: chairs
Would be fun to lynch someone before they post

[Galzria]

If I could vote MiX a second time here, I would.

[MiX]

If I could vote MiX a second time here, I would.

Do you think pushing for the claim is scummy? If so, why? I continue to believe forcing a claim is good if there's scum!Promoter since it locks scum into making a decision here and now and it means we won't have this problem later in the game (town!Promoter claiming gives some power to scum as they can decide if he lives or dies but that's the price we pay). If this is not why you're voting for me, do you want to say what said reason is?

This is when I would change my vote after a reread, but I still want it to be on chairs.

[Galzria]

If I could vote MiX a second time here, I would.

Do you think pushing for the claim is scummy? If so, why? I continue to believe forcing a claim is good if there's scum!Promoter since it locks scum into making a decision here and now and it means we won't have this problem later in the game (town!Promoter claiming gives some power to scum as they can decide if he lives or dies but that's the price we pay). If this is not why you're voting for me, do you want to say what said reason is?

This is when I would change my vote after a reread, but I still want it to be on chairs.

First: You’re not pushing a scum!promoter into doing anything. They aren’t going to claim if they don’t want to do so - even if every person in the game, including them, expressed that the Promoter should claim, they could sit there silently or claim “not Promoter” with the 13 other people claiming the same.

So what you’re actually trying to do, effectively, is get a potential town!Promoter to claim. Which, if you fell on the side of believing it to be a negative utility role is one thing - but that’s not the reason you’ve been arguing for the claim.

Second: You’ve been pushing a potential Traitor to claim the role. This would make sense given, as noted above, a scum!promoter won’t actually claim anyway. The town could “force” the Traitor to use his “power”, and the actual scum!promoter can play right along consequence free.

Third: I don’t believe the initial vote on Chairs for his lack of posting comes from scum all that often, but I’m more inclined to see the first person to jump at that as a reasonable vote as scummy.

[mcmcsalot]

I agree with galz and would also like to double vote for mix

[arishipshape]

Sorry I've been gone all day. I'll read everything I missed tonight, formulate opinions, refute arguments against me, etc. For now, unvote, as I'm sure I've missed many things today that would cause me to change my vote. See you all tonight!

[Glooble]

I’ll be Galz or mcmcsalot’s extra vote and vote: MiX . I like it a little better than the ADK wagon at this point.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Third: I don’t believe the initial vote on Chairs for his lack of posting comes from scum all that often, but I’m more inclined to see the first person to jump at that as a reasonable vote as scummy.

What's your thought on Joseph here?

[SpaceAnemone]

Third: I don’t believe the initial vote on Chairs for his lack of posting comes from scum all that often, but I’m more inclined to see the first person to jump at that as a reasonable vote as scummy.

What's your thought on Joseph here?

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I've been gone all day and need to start getting into things, and this seems a good starting point! :-)

I would say that Joseph would jump on a wagon just for entertainment value without actually thinking through consequences. Mix doesn't tend to feel that spontaneous.. he's more an over-thinker.

[SpaceAnemone]

Can someone explain to me how Lyncer Doctor works? I don't follow the PM explanation for that one... is it saying that each night they may target one particular player, and only that one player?

[Glooble]

I think it’s two separate powers. They’re a doctor, and also they have one other player they want to lynch.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Third: I don’t believe the initial vote on Chairs for his lack of posting comes from scum all that often, but I’m more inclined to see the first person to jump at that as a reasonable vote as scummy.

What's your thought on Joseph here?

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I've been gone all day and need to start getting into things, and this seems a good starting point! :-)

I would say that Joseph would jump on a wagon just for entertainment value without actually thinking through consequences. Mix doesn't tend to feel that spontaneous.. he's more an over-thinker.

Do you think that MiX's vote is scummy?

[jotheonah]

can we get a vote count?

[Swowl]

Can someone explain to me how Lyncer Doctor works? I don't follow the PM explanation for that one... is it saying that each night they may target one particular player, and only that one player?

Yeah I don't get the part about "you know they are VT".


Outside of that I think it means - Every night you get may target a player. If that player is lynched while you are still alive, you win. If that player dies in another fashion, then you also die.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 1.1

Uncleeurope wanted to explain how Lyncher Doctor worked in glorious detail, but didn't know if he was allowed to answer questions not specifically directed at him, because he was new to modding. He felt like a fairy not yet invited over a threshold. By even nudging this close to it by hinting in such an obtuse manner, he might be damaging the integrity of the site forever.

MiX (4): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble
A Drowned Kernel (2): faust, jotheonah
chairs (2): Joseph2302, MIX
jotheonah (1): A Drowned Kernel
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone


Not voting (4): DatSwan, chairs, EFHW, arishipshape


With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
Day 1 ends Wednesday, 1st of May, at 5:30 ft.

[MiX]

Can someone explain to me how Lyncer Doctor works? I don't follow the PM explanation for that one... is it saying that each night they may target one particular player, and only that one player?

From what I understood, Lyncher has 1 target that is randomly picked from all VTs at the start of the game, and then they have a normal Doctor which is used to keep that VT safe from NKs.

Galzria, the point of forcing the claim is so, after no one claims, we can safely say promoter is scum. And judging by the resistance of this idea I'd say it's more likely that there's a scum!Promoter anyway. Town!Promoter being positive or negative utility doesn't matter, given it's scum's choice to kill him after he claims, which is bad regardless of utility

[Joseph2302]

Can someone explain to me how Lyncer Doctor works? I don't follow the PM explanation for that one... is it saying that each night they may target one particular player, and only that one player?

From what I understood, Lyncher has 1 target that is randomly picked from all VTs at the start of the game, and then they have a normal Doctor which is used to keep that VT safe from NKs.

Galzria, the point of forcing the claim is so, after no one claims, we can safely say promoter is scum. And judging by the resistance of this idea I'd say it's more likely that there's a scum!Promoter anyway. Town!Promoter being positive or negative utility doesn't matter, given it's scum's choice to kill him after he claims, which is bad regardless of utility

So this me and the Lyncher Doctor wants a random VT to die, and that's their win condition?

[faust]

Request prod on chairs

[MiX]

If "me and" is means, yes, that's exactly what Lyncher wants.

[jotheonah]

Uncleeurope, how does lyncher doctor work? Can you explain in glorious detail?

[LaLight]

Request prod on chairs

Sent.

[LaLight]

Uncleeurope, how does lyncher doctor work? Can you explain in glorious detail?

Please, specify the question. The sample QT is in the opening post.

[MiX]

Uncleeurope, how does lyncher doctor work? Can you explain in glorious detail?

Lyncher has a Target: He's given the name of 1 VT and he wins iff said person gets lynched. Seperately, he can select one person to be Doctored every night (he picks this every night so he can swap it between himself and his Target because that's almost always what he'll do). Any further questions?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Why are we so concerned about how the lyncher doctor works?

[SpaceAnemone]

Third: I don’t believe the initial vote on Chairs for his lack of posting comes from scum all that often, but I’m more inclined to see the first person to jump at that as a reasonable vote as scummy.

What's your thought on Joseph here?

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I've been gone all day and need to start getting into things, and this seems a good starting point! :-)

I would say that Joseph would jump on a wagon just for entertainment value without actually thinking through consequences. Mix doesn't tend to feel that spontaneous.. he's more an over-thinker.

Do you think that MiX's vote is scummy?

Maybe very marginally. Like, he can have a scumpoint for it, but it didn't feel significant enough for me to bother moving my RVS vote yet.

[SpaceAnemone]

Why are we so concerned about how the lyncher doctor works?

Because when I finally read the setup, it was the one thing that I didn't think was clearly explained, so I asked about it. Sorry I was kind of late to the party :-P

[SpaceAnemone]

Uncleeurope, how does lyncher doctor work? Can you explain in glorious detail?

Please, specify the question. The sample QT is in the opening post.

Okay, here goes! The first part of the PM says:

Each night you may target one player (possibly yourself) to protect them from one kill attempt.

That sounds like a doctor to me, so I'm happy so far.

Then we get to:

Your target is {Player}, you know they are a VT.

Does this refer to a totally different "target" than they've just been told they can pick nightly? Usually when a PM says "you may pick a target", then goes on to talk about "your target", those two are the same person. However, in this case I think they must not be. If I'm correct, then why not rename this second use of "target" to be something like "Desired Lynchee"?

Using this suggested terminology, the Lyncher Doctor has a particular Desired Lynchee, picked out by the mods from the pool of VTs during the setup phase of the game. If that lynchee dies through any method other than being lynched, the Lyncher Doctor dies too, and cannot win. Lyncher Doctor is allowed to use the doctor action each night to target someone. That target could be their Desired Lynchee, or could be themself, but could also in theory be any other player.

Does the above summarise the role of Lyncher Doctor successfully?

[jotheonah]

I'm not that concerned, but I was moved by Eddie's vote count flavor and wanted to throw him a bone.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 1.1

Glooble is voting twice here.

[chairs]

So I didn’t check the thread because I play on my phone whenever I get a new post notification....

I didn’t have notify enabled for this thread.


Oops!

Anyway screw the town promoter claiming. Also someone mentioned faith in vigilantes and I apologize for generating that faith on this board

vote: a drowned kernel the promoter claim discussion ended up getting us nowhere and feels distracting.

[LaLight]

Using this suggested terminology, the Lyncher Doctor has a particular Desired Lynchee, picked out by the mods from the pool of VTs during the setup phase of the game. If that lynchee dies through any method other than being lynched, the Lyncher Doctor dies too, and cannot win. Lyncher Doctor is allowed to use the doctor action each night to target someone. That target could be their Desired Lynchee, or could be themself, but could also in theory be any other player.

Does the above summarise the role of Lyncher Doctor successfully?

This is the most correct explanation of how Lyncher Doctor works that I have seen in my whole life.

[MiX]

I have a lot of predictions but no reads...

Unvote. I'll have to try harder, haven't put much effort into this yet.

[LaLight]

Vote Count 1.1

Glooble is voting twice here.

Fixed.

[MiX]

If that lynchee dies through any method other than being lynched, the Lyncher Doctor dies too, and cannot win.

Note how Lyncher dies if his target is lynched. This means non-LyLo situations can turn into MyLo unexpectedly even if the VT isn't NKd.

[arishipshape]

First off: Super sorry I didn't get around to this yesterday night like I said I would. My computer kept restarting in the middle of me constructing my posts, and I got tired, so I went to bed. I'm here now. But I'm kinda miffed at the lack of suspicion on me. If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum. Time for me to join the fray!
My thoughts on promoter versus Vig: Vig is an extra kill. Promoter is limiting the kill we are already entitled to. Vig>Promoter. I'm torn on whether the promoter should claim though. I feel like it's negative utility, so scum wouldn't want to kill, so scum will be able to kill our other power roles, but if the promoter plays smart they can influence the game for the better (assuming we got the town promoter). I think it's safer to just not claim. That way maf can accidentally kill promoter instead of another pr.
Also, Jothenoah and Faust: I'm really REALLY not a fan of unexplained votes. Explanation provides more information to the town, which is always good. Barring being a PR or something. I'd recommend one of them for the day 2 lynch if promoter doesn't throw a wrench in that and they don't claim some PR.
My thoughts on voting: Why are we voting MiX? Sure, he's not the towniest town to ever town, but I don't see to much scumminess. Anyone wanna explain?
In conclusion to this opening paragraph, everybody ask me hard questions! I want to answer them and prove I'm town!

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.

I have one game to my name.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19407.0
In this game, I was scum. Feel free to read it over. Anyways, you are absolutely correct in my straightforwardness. I try not to mask, deceive, or be unclear in any way, shape, or form, so as to leave no room for any misinterpretation, which is a scum's friend.

To be frank, you did the same things in the game you quoted.

Correct. And I was obviously scum. Ergo, my strategy revealed the scum. Therefore, it is pro town. I'll probably have to come up with a better strategy for when I'm scum... But hey, i don't need to worry about that this game!

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

I think MiX is scum pushing for traitor to claim. Mild suspicion

...Why do you think this?

[jotheonah]

vote: arishipshape

When someone tells you who they are, listen.

[MiX]

Vote: joth, ari is being towny, not scummy. Also I can't quite shake the feeling you're not town...

[jotheonah]

First off: Super sorry I didn't get around to this yesterday night like I said I would. My computer kept restarting in the middle of me constructing my posts, and I got tired, so I went to bed. I'm here now. But I'm kinda miffed at the lack of suspicion on me. If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum. Time for me to join the fray!

is the scummiest thing I've ever read. And then there's this:

My thoughts on voting: Why are we voting MiX? Sure, he's not the towniest town to ever town, but I don't see to much scumminess. Anyone wanna explain?

Followed immediately by Mix jumping to ari's defense for my one vote? Guys, get better at being partners.

[arishipshape]

First off: Super sorry I didn't get around to this yesterday night like I said I would. My computer kept restarting in the middle of me constructing my posts, and I got tired, so I went to bed. I'm here now. But I'm kinda miffed at the lack of suspicion on me. If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum. Time for me to join the fray!

is the scummiest thing I've ever read. And then there's this:

My thoughts on voting: Why are we voting MiX? Sure, he's not the towniest town to ever town, but I don't see to much scumminess. Anyone wanna explain?

Followed immediately by Mix jumping to ari's defense for my one vote? Guys, get better at being partners.

How is that the scummiest thing you've ever read? It was complete and total transparency and honesty! The unvarnished truth!
Ok, MiX jumping to my immediate defense looks bad. I admit it. Thanks a lot MiX. But I'm sure my amazing clarity and truth telling will exceed any suspicion MiX throws on me.
I still don't understand the votes on MiX. Anyone on the MiX wagon, care to explain the "MiX is trying to get traitor to claim" theory?

[MiX]

Hey, we are REALLY good at being partners, okay? If it were us you would see a lot more direct intetaction (I actually planned a little bit if I got scum with ari only since we would both be newbies).

"Jokes" aside: what makes that first part scummy? For me it says "Hello my name is arishipshape and I love to make long hard to read posts about everything" which doesn't seem alignment indicative.

PPE 1: I truly am trying to make Traitor claim.

[arishipshape]

Hey, we are REALLY good at being partners, okay? If it were us you would see a lot more direct intetaction (I actually planned a little bit if I got scum with ari only since we would both be newbies).

"Jokes" aside: what makes that first part scummy? For me it says "Hello my name is arishipshape and I love to make long hard to read posts about everything" which doesn't seem alignment indicative.

PPE 1: I truly am trying to make Traitor claim.

...Hard to read? I'm insulted. I'll try to cut down on the excess verbiage, if that's what everyone thinks though.
Allow me to rephrase. Anyone on the MiX wagon, care to explain why MiX trying to make traitor claim makes MiX scum?

[Joseph2302]

Vote: joth, ari is being towny, not scummy. Also I can't quite shake the feeling you're not town...

I agree somewhat that ari seems different to the obv!scum!ari of the last time we played

PPE:1?

[MiX]

...Hard to read?

You should put more spaces and paragraphs IMO, kinda like I do 

[Glooble]

Hey, we are REALLY good at being partners, okay? If it were us you would see a lot more direct intetaction (I actually planned a little bit if I got scum with ari only since we would both be newbies).

"Jokes" aside: what makes that first part scummy? For me it says "Hello my name is arishipshape and I love to make long hard to read posts about everything" which doesn't seem alignment indicative.

PPE 1: I truly am trying to make Traitor claim.

...Hard to read? I'm insulted. I'll try to cut down on the excess verbiage, if that's what everyone thinks though.
Allow me to rephrase. Anyone on the MiX wagon, care to explain why MiX trying to make traitor claim makes MiX scum?

Tbh, I'm mostly sheeping Galz and mcmc/ trying to get some genuine pressure on MiX to see what happens, but at the time I made the vote Galz's argument made more sense to me than it does now. I just tried to explain it and ended up convincing myself I don't really understand it.
 

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'd recommend one of them for the day 2 lynch

This stood out to me. What? Why not a day 1 lynch?

[arishipshape]

I'd recommend one of them for the day 2 lynch

This stood out to me. What? Why not a day 1 lynch?

The lack of reasons makes me think they are trying to lay low and avoid attention. While this is absolutely something Scum would do, it's also something a PR would do. I want to give em a chance to use their night actions and claim tomorrow, with the extra cred for actually having done a night action, just in case they are a PR.

[faust]

I'd recommend one of them for the day 2 lynch

This stood out to me. What? Why not a day 1 lynch?

The lack of reasons makes me think they are trying to lay low and avoid attention. While this is absolutely something Scum would do, it's also something a PR would do. I want to give em a chance to use their night actions and claim tomorrow, with the extra cred for actually having done a night action, just in case they are a PR.

The lack of explanation has created approximately 347% the attention that an explained vote would have.

[arishipshape]

I'd recommend one of them for the day 2 lynch

This stood out to me. What? Why not a day 1 lynch?

The lack of reasons makes me think they are trying to lay low and avoid attention. While this is absolutely something Scum would do, it's also something a PR would do. I want to give em a chance to use their night actions and claim tomorrow, with the extra cred for actually having done a night action, just in case they are a PR.

The lack of explanation has created approximately 347% the attention that an explained vote would have.

Only thanks to your truly. Without me (and/or ADK) everyone would have been like "eeeeh, whatever, it's everybody's meta, lets not investigate further". You're welcome, town.

Faust, you still haven't explained your vote.

[Glooble]

Only thanks to your truly. Without me (and/or ADK) everyone would have been like "eeeeh, whatever, it's everybody's meta, lets not investigate further". You're welcome, town.

It *is* their meta though. They behave this way regardless of alignment. You can push back against it if you think its unhelpful, but unhelpful =/= scum.

[faust]

Faust, you still haven't explained your vote.

I'm so glad you pointed that out, or else I would never have noticed.

For reals though, I think it is soon time to explain, but I don't have the time just now.

[arishipshape]

Only thanks to your truly. Without me (and/or ADK) everyone would have been like "eeeeh, whatever, it's everybody's meta, lets not investigate further". You're welcome, town.

It *is* their meta though. They behave this way regardless of alignment. You can push back against it if you think its unhelpful, but unhelpful =/= scum.

Well then that's an anti town meta, and if they wont set it aside for games where I'm helping the town, I'm not letting them get away with it. Unhelpful =/= scum, continuing to be unhelpful after unhelpful-ness to town has been proven = scumpoints. But I'm not sure, yet. I don't think they're the best lynch today, at least.

Faust, you still haven't explained your vote.

I'm so glad you pointed that out, or else I would never have noticed.

For reals though, I think it is soon time to explain, but I don't have the time just now.

Ha ha. Good. Once you've got an explanation on the table the town can discuss it, making people talk more, grant information, made deductions from that info, connect dots, and generally a slippery slope of town good-ness. I look forward to it. No rush, though. Real life takes priority.

[EFHW]

Can someone explain to me how Lyncer Doctor works? I don't follow the PM explanation for that one... is it saying that each night they may target one particular player, and only that one player?

From what I understood, Lyncher has 1 target that is randomly picked from all VTs at the start of the game, and then they have a normal Doctor which is used to keep that VT safe from NKs.

Galzria, the point of forcing the claim is so, after no one claims, we can safely say promoter is scum. And judging by the resistance of this idea I'd say it's more likely that there's a scum!Promoter anyway. Town!Promoter being positive or negative utility doesn't matter, given it's scum's choice to kill him after he claims, which is bad regardless of utility

Promoter gives their target in their QT, so we never see them use their role and can't identify them as a particular player. I can think of some reasons why town!promoter might not want to claim. So I'm anti-promoter claim.

Thanks for the kind wishes

[chairs]

Only thanks to your truly. Without me (and/or ADK) everyone would have been like "eeeeh, whatever, it's everybody's meta, lets not investigate further". You're welcome, town.

It *is* their meta though. They behave this way regardless of alignment. You can push back against it if you think its unhelpful, but unhelpful =/= scum.

Case in point, awaclus. Always frustrating, usually Town.

[MiX]

Can someone explain to me how Lyncer Doctor works? I don't follow the PM explanation for that one... is it saying that each night they may target one particular player, and only that one player?

From what I understood, Lyncher has 1 target that is randomly picked from all VTs at the start of the game, and then they have a normal Doctor which is used to keep that VT safe from NKs.

Galzria, the point of forcing the claim is so, after no one claims, we can safely say promoter is scum. And judging by the resistance of this idea I'd say it's more likely that there's a scum!Promoter anyway. Town!Promoter being positive or negative utility doesn't matter, given it's scum's choice to kill him after he claims, which is bad regardless of utility

Promoter gives their target in their QT, so we never see them use their role and can't identify them as a particular player. I can think of some reasons why town!promoter might not want to claim. So I'm anti-promoter claim.

Thanks for the kind wishes

I don't understand what the first part has to do with claiming or not claiming...I do understand that town!Promoter should choose if they want to claim or not on their own: the problem is that's only 50% of the setups: in the other half, scum doesn't really want to claim, which is why I think it's good to force them to NOT claim, thus showing that the promoter is scum.

[A Drowned Kernel]

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.

I have one game to my name.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19407.0
In this game, I was scum. Feel free to read it over. Anyways, you are absolutely correct in my straightforwardness. I try not to mask, deceive, or be unclear in any way, shape, or form, so as to leave no room for any misinterpretation, which is a scum's friend.

Question: do you think that joking and sarcasm, in players other than yourself, is a scumtell?

@ari I realize this is buried a bit back but I'm still interested in the answer to this question

[A Drowned Kernel]

Only thanks to your truly. Without me (and/or ADK) everyone would have been like "eeeeh, whatever, it's everybody's meta, lets not investigate further". You're welcome, town.

It *is* their meta though. They behave this way regardless of alignment. You can push back against it if you think its unhelpful, but unhelpful =/= scum.

Case in point, awaclus. Always frustrating, usually Town.

chairs do you have any thoughts on this game?

[chairs]

Only thanks to your truly. Without me (and/or ADK) everyone would have been like "eeeeh, whatever, it's everybody's meta, lets not investigate further". You're welcome, town.

It *is* their meta though. They behave this way regardless of alignment. You can push back against it if you think its unhelpful, but unhelpful =/= scum.

Case in point, awaclus. Always frustrating, usually Town.

chairs do you have any thoughts on this game?

Well, I had been thinking anti promoter claim but that post a few above mine points out forcing a promoter claim forces scum to either tell us more about the setup (by not claiming) or be a potentially dangerous “fake” claim. I think scum promoter claiming sets us up for a one vs one situation even, right?

[chairs]

TLDR this makes me more pro promoter claim

[arishipshape]

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.

I have one game to my name.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19407.0
In this game, I was scum. Feel free to read it over. Anyways, you are absolutely correct in my straightforwardness. I try not to mask, deceive, or be unclear in any way, shape, or form, so as to leave no room for any misinterpretation, which is a scum's friend.

Question: do you think that joking and sarcasm, in players other than yourself, is a scumtell?

@ari I realize this is buried a bit back but I'm still interested in the answer to this question

I don't think it's a scumtell. I do think it's an anti town move, and that avoiding it would be good for town. I also think that if somebody already has a few anti town acts to their name, joking and sarcasm should count as points against them.

[MiX]

That's essencially what I'm saying chairs, except I'm not so sure it creates a 1v1...conflicts with promoter seem like a mess as mcmc has alluded to, but I don't think they matter for claiming now, since those conflicts could simply happen later if we wait.

I don't think it's a scumtell. I do think it's an anti town move, and that avoiding it would be good for town. I also think that if somebody already has a few anti town acts to their name, joking and sarcasm should count as points against them.

Why would jokes and sarcasm count more if said person's already scummy? Seems like confirmation bias to me.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Only thanks to your truly. Without me (and/or ADK) everyone would have been like "eeeeh, whatever, it's everybody's meta, lets not investigate further". You're welcome, town.

It *is* their meta though. They behave this way regardless of alignment. You can push back against it if you think its unhelpful, but unhelpful =/= scum.

Case in point, awaclus. Always frustrating, usually Town.

chairs do you have any thoughts on this game?

Well, I had been thinking anti promoter claim but that post a few above mine points out forcing a promoter claim forces scum to either tell us more about the setup (by not claiming) or be a potentially dangerous “fake” claim. I think scum promoter claiming sets us up for a one vs one situation even, right?

No, scum promoter can safely fakeclaim town promoter since there's no one to counterclaim them. And how would we go about "forcing" a promoter claim?

[MiX]

No, scum promoter can safely fakeclaim town promoter since there's no one to counterclaim them. And how would we go about "forcing" a promoter claim?

They would get lynched once Traitor flips. Vice-versa if Traitor's the one who claims. To answer your question: I am not Promoter, if this wasn't obvious. I somewhat encourage everyone to do the same but I doubt people will

[arishipshape]

I don't think it's a scumtell. I do think it's an anti town move, and that avoiding it would be good for town. I also think that if somebody already has a few anti town acts to their name, joking and sarcasm should count as points against them.

Why would jokes and sarcasm count more if said person's already scummy? Seems like confirmation bias to me.

I can think of no rebuttal. I retract my statements regarding sarcasm and joking being scum points, although they should still be avoided.

I am not Promoter.

[Glooble]

Ok, sorry if this is repeating stuff that's already been said, I'm just trying to think about this plan rationally, because my gut says it's a bad idea.

Pros of everybody saying whether they are the town promoter:

If everyone says they're not the promoter, we can conclude the promoter is scum. This gives us information that scum already has.

Cons:

If the town promoter does come forward, scum can choose whether to kill them or keep them alive, probably based on their assessment of that player and how good their reads are/ how they're likely to use that power. This puts the ball in scum's court a little more than I would like.

Scum is also marginally more likely to hit a useful town power role.

Scum promoter or traitor can safely fake-claim town promoter, even if this does entail some level of risk for them later on. This means if anyone claims town promoter, it doesn't actually give us any useful information about the setup (unless we commit to lynching that person.)


What am I missing here?

[Glooble]

To clarify, if you believe town promoter is negative utility, outing them tells scum to avoid them, increasing the chance scum hits an investigative role. If you believe town promoter is positive utility why would you ever want to out them?

[MiX]

If promoter is scum, there are no cons to claiming promoter. That's...pretty much my case here, really.

To clarify, if you believe town promoter is negative utility, outing them tells scum to avoid them, increasing the chance scum hits an investigative role. If you believe town promoter is positive utility why would you ever want to out them?

There's also the fact that promoter seems to be pretty neutral utility...also if scum kills them they out setup information, so it's not as clear cut as you suggest.

[A Drowned Kernel]

If everyone says they're not the promoter, we can conclude the promoter is scum.

Or that the promoter decided they would rather not come forward.

[Glooble]

If everyone says they're not the promoter, we can conclude the promoter is scum.

Or that the promoter decided they would rather not come forward.

Sorry I was going on the assumption that a town player wouldn't outright lie.

[MiX]

If everyone says they're not the promoter, we can conclude the promoter is scum.

Or that the promoter decided they would rather not come forward.

Well that completely destroys the plan! That would be seriously anti-town in my opinion, given that I'll eventually lynch them when they DO claim. Unless they never claim?

[Joseph2302]

Wait what, we're now trying to force the promoter out? Don't think this will work how we want it necessarily

[A Drowned Kernel]

If everyone says they're not the promoter, we can conclude the promoter is scum.

Or that the promoter decided they would rather not come forward.

Sorry I was going on the assumption that a town player wouldn't outright lie.

Town shouldn't (usually) lie. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Wait what, we're now trying to force the promoter out? Don't think this will work how we want it necessarily

"We" is a fairly limited term here I think

[MiX]

Wait what, we're now trying to force the promoter out? Don't think this will work how we want it necessarily

Well I essencially claimed that by pushing the claim...I continue to believe this but we don't have to push through just because I started it.

[faust]

Can you guys just move on already?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Can you guys just move on already?

Sure. To faust and anyone else: thoughts on joth? He's currently my favorite lynch.

[faust]

After some more thinking, unfortunately I have to conclude that explaining my ADK reasoning is not beneficial. Sorry for getting your hopes up.

PPE: 1

[faust]

Can you guys just move on already?

Sure. To faust and anyone else: thoughts on joth? He's currently my favorite lynch.

I think he's a bit towny.

[Joseph2302]

Wait what, we're now trying to force the promoter out? Don't think this will work how we want it necessarily

"We" is a fairly limited term here I think

Two people have started it.

[Glooble]

Can you guys just move on already?

Sure. To faust and anyone else: thoughts on joth? He's currently my favorite lynch.

Town to null.

[Joseph2302]

Can you guys just move on already?

Sure. To faust and anyone else: thoughts on joth? He's currently my favorite lynch.

Not played with him much, but nothing screaming scummy to me right now

[MiX]

Can you guys just move on already?

Yeah I suppose I can admit when I'm wrong. Or at least admit when ADK is correct that town will probably not claim, ruining the whole purpose of my idea.

Can you guys just move on already?

Sure. To faust and anyone else: thoughts on joth? He's currently my favorite lynch.

If I had to guess, I think he's Jester. But since I'm already voting for him, I don't mind lynching him.

Wait what, we're now trying to force the promoter out? Don't think this will work how we want it necessarily

"We" is a fairly limited term here I think

Two people have started it.

I wouldn't count me and ari as 2 people...we're more like one, really.

[mcmcsalot]

MiX am I correct you have not been mafia yet on this forum, only town and sk.

MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation. He is pushing and doing things that are anti town but also not from some misguided town perspective. This yea I was wrong is very sloppy and not something town MiX is likely to do (make such a poor play in the first place, not the fact that he admitted it was a poor play)

Also I really think he’s scum trying to prompt and provide a method of he traitor to claim promoter and reveal himself to mafia. Which I think people don’t understand how good of a move that is for the mafia team.

Space is towny, so is galz and chairs. I agree with joth about aroshapes post being scummy but I still find him overall towny, maybe I need to reread ari.

[arishipshape]

My case against Faust:

Reason number one. Unexplained vote.

Vote: ADK

Even after repeated pressure from me and ADK, Faust has refused to provide justification for this vote. I've repeatedly stated why this is super anti town, I don't want to sound like a broken record. If anyone needs to know why this is scummy, ask. Or re-read me.

Reason number two. General unhelpful-ness. Here are some of the choicest Faust quotes of this game.

Unrelated note: Well done gkrieg.

If town guesses right and lynches scum, it even increases our chance of lynching scum to 100%.

I sure hope we're in one of the scenarios that have only 1 scum!

I think he's a bit towny.

The above quote is unhelpful for providing no reasons, although making a town read is usually helpful.

Can you guys just move on already?

Faust seems to be gravitating towards one liners that don't actually say anything, and not contributing nearly enough. However, he has done the occasional helpful post. I just don't believe these outdo his lack of helpfulness. Useful quotes include:

Here"s a notable setup point worth discussing: We can still lynch whoever we want on D2 if we do it before the 72 hour deadline for the Gladiator expires.

Unrelated note: Well done gkrieg.

This reminds me: What's gkrieg's meta? With his, feel free to explain chairs joth and Galzria's metas as well, I just realized I haven't played with them yet.

Let's just say if gkrieg were the Traitor, we'd already know...

Seriously, gkrieg tends to have pretty good reads as town but for some reason people read him scummy and he gets mislynched frequently. As scum he's much easier to detect IRL. chairs is like always kind of excited when he starts playing, and then something terrible happens in his life and he can't participate. He's also very much a gut feeling kind of player. joth I feel I haven't really played with enough yet. Galzria's current meta is unfortunately that he lurks until he is replaced.

Finally, I also just get a scummy vibe from him. I try to ignore feelings most of the time, but I find in mafia they sometimes serve a purpose. Feel free to argue. Vote:Faust

[A Drowned Kernel]

MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation.

What does this even mean? Can you point me to something that demonstrates it?

[Glooble]

MiX am I correct you have not been mafia yet on this forum, only town and sk.

MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation. He is pushing and doing things that are anti town but also not from some misguided town perspective. This yea I was wrong is very sloppy and not something town MiX is likely to do (make such a poor play in the first place, not the fact that he admitted it was a poor play)

Also I really think he’s scum trying to prompt and provide a method of he traitor to claim promoter and reveal himself to mafia. Which I think people don’t understand how good of a move that is for the mafia team.

This is a compelling case and I'm comfortable continuing to vote for MiX.

I would also vote for ari at this point though. The recently posted faust case comes feels manipulative to me. Just dumps a bunch of quotes with no context. For example

If town guesses right and lynches scum, it even increases our chance of lynching scum to 100%.

[/quote]

is held up as an unhelpful quote. But it's not actually. It's a sarcastic way of pointing out a flaw in my argument, which is pretty clear with the context ari failed to provide.

[arishipshape]

MiX am I correct you have not been mafia yet on this forum, only town and sk.

MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation. He is pushing and doing things that are anti town but also not from some misguided town perspective. This yea I was wrong is very sloppy and not something town MiX is likely to do (make such a poor play in the first place, not the fact that he admitted it was a poor play)

Also I really think he’s scum trying to prompt and provide a method of he traitor to claim promoter and reveal himself to mafia. Which I think people don’t understand how good of a move that is for the mafia team.

This is a compelling case and I'm comfortable continuing to vote for MiX.

I would also vote for ari at this point though. The recently posted faust case comes feels manipulative to me. Just dumps a bunch of quotes with no context. For example

If town guesses right and lynches scum, it even increases our chance of lynching scum to 100%.

is held up as an unhelpful quote. But it's not actually. It's a sarcastic way of pointing out a flaw in my argument, which is pretty clear with the context ari failed to provide.
[/quote]
I tried to keep the words to a bare minimum after being called "hard to read". I meant no manipulation: I intended to spark conversation and perhaps get my scum read lynched. What do you think of Fuast refusing to explain his vote?

[MiX]

MiX am I correct you have not been mafia yet on this forum, only town and sk.

You are correct indeed.

MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation. He is pushing and doing things that are anti town but also not from some misguided town perspective. This yea I was wrong is very sloppy and not something town MiX is likely to do (make such a poor play in the first place, not the fact that he admitted it was a poor play)

Also I really think he’s scum trying to prompt and provide a method of he traitor to claim promoter and reveal himself to mafia. Which I think people don’t understand how good of a move that is for the mafia team.

I would never push such a move as scum, unless 2 things happen: we agreed N0 that I would do this plan, and...well I doubt I would just agree to it, but I can't quite put my finger on why...

PPE 4 because I don't have to reply to everything right now.

[Glooble]

What do you think of Fuast refusing to explain his vote?

I think that faust believes that the information that explanation would give to scum outweighs the helpful information it would give to town.

[Joseph2302]

What do you think of Fuast refusing to explain his vote?

I think that faust believes that the information that explanation would give to scum outweighs the helpful information it would give to town.

Seriously faust isn't really seeming scummy

[jotheonah]

First off: Super sorry I didn't get around to this yesterday night like I said I would. My computer kept restarting in the middle of me constructing my posts, and I got tired, so I went to bed. I'm here now. But I'm kinda miffed at the lack of suspicion on me. If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum. Time for me to join the fray!

is the scummiest thing I've ever read. And then there's this:

My thoughts on voting: Why are we voting MiX? Sure, he's not the towniest town to ever town, but I don't see to much scumminess. Anyone wanna explain?

Followed immediately by Mix jumping to ari's defense for my one vote? Guys, get better at being partners.

How is that the scummiest thing you've ever read? It was complete and total transparency and honesty! The unvarnished truth!

This is going to sound dumb, but I have a little mental notebook of scumtells based on my own experiences. One of them is this: Unprompted "if I were scum..." reflections are much more likely to come from scum who thinks they're being clever than from town. Why? Because town isn't thinking about if they were scum. I've found this to be fairly reliable.

Also ari's case on faust is terrible, and faust is definitely town here.

Come join me on the ari wagon, friends!

[jotheonah]

I mean, "definitely town" is strong; faust could be scum, as could anyone. But so far he's reading pretty townie.

[MiX]

So much to go through...faust isn't scummy, ari, your case isn't really a case as it is stating faust's posts...which are pretty towny. Well, faust towny, which means I have no idea what he is.

joth, what's your ari case? And Glooble, why do you like mcmc's case on me?

[jotheonah]

So much to go through...faust isn't scummy, ari, your case isn't really a case as it is stating faust's posts...which are pretty towny. Well, faust towny, which means I have no idea what he is.

joth, what's your ari case? And Glooble, why do you like mcmc's case on me?

two posts up

[arishipshape]

First off: Super sorry I didn't get around to this yesterday night like I said I would. My computer kept restarting in the middle of me constructing my posts, and I got tired, so I went to bed. I'm here now. But I'm kinda miffed at the lack of suspicion on me. If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum. Time for me to join the fray!

is the scummiest thing I've ever read. And then there's this:

My thoughts on voting: Why are we voting MiX? Sure, he's not the towniest town to ever town, but I don't see to much scumminess. Anyone wanna explain?

Followed immediately by Mix jumping to ari's defense for my one vote? Guys, get better at being partners.

How is that the scummiest thing you've ever read? It was complete and total transparency and honesty! The unvarnished truth!

This is going to sound dumb, but I have a little mental notebook of scumtells based on my own experiences. One of them is this: Unprompted "if I were scum..." reflections are much more likely to come from scum who thinks they're being clever than from town. Why? Because town isn't thinking about if they were scum. I've found this to be fairly reliable.

Also ari's case on faust is terrible, and faust is definitely town here.

Come join me on the ari wagon, friends!

I agree, unprompted speculations on "if I were scum" is pretty scummy. When did I do that?

Please enlighten me with reasons, not just saying "his case sucks". Why is my case terrible? Why is Faust so definitely town?
PPE:3

[Joseph2302]

I think ago is trying to be helpful town, even though their case on faust isn't great. Think it may be town/town interaction

[SpaceAnemone]

I really don't like Ari's faust case, but I don't think it's malicious/scummy per se, just a bit of an indication that they're a newbie with little feel for people's meta, or the overall meta of f.ds mafia.

@Ari, hi! I don't think we've played before. Apologies for starting out our interaction with a criticism, but coming into a game with a blunt assertion that it's anti-town not to share everything, while obviously being unaware of the long history of this having been discussed in numerous games before, is a bit naive, and really isn't going to win over many of the vets. Faust is a seasoned player who knows what he's doing. He comes across as weirdly cantankerous sometimes, and economical with his words, but that's not alignment indicative. The only reliable tell I found for him being scum is that if you get into a situation where there's complex logical reasoning, he can sometime spin it the wrong way to cover for himself or his teammates as scum, but obviously won't use the same spin as town. It's not a very frequently-applicable tell :-(

In case it helps give you a framework for thinking about the more meta side of the game works here, consider that any given player, especially vets who've been playing such games with one another for years and years, is probably not thinking only of their win or loss in this one particular game. They've got form, there are things they've done before as scum, and things they've discussed previously with people who were their scum buddies in other games, but who might now be town while they're scum again (or vice versa!), and there are patterns of behaviour that tend to repeat. The pace of innovation in any given direction is limited by how people feel any changes in their behaviour might adversely affect their faction in this game, and also other people's perceptions of them in future games. If you're too ridiculously townie as town and can't emulate it when you're scum, your scum game suffers. If you're too unhelpful or abrasive as a player, people will more happily lynch you off even in your townier games. Players like faust are so ancient they've converged on some kind of an optimum presentation. (I (hope I can) get away with saying this, since I'm more ancient than faust is IRL, even though I'm a relative newbie in f.ds mafia terms, having only been playing mafia here for ~3 years).

PPE 6 or 7: not sure that needed an essay, but there you go :-P

[MiX]

I have a strong urge to dissasociate myself with ari before we both get lynched. Does this mean I think ari's scum?

So much to go through...faust isn't scummy, ari, your case isn't really a case as it is stating faust's posts...which are pretty towny. Well, faust towny, which means I have no idea what he is.

joth, what's your ari case? And Glooble, why do you like mcmc's case on me?

two posts up

Can you quote ari's scummy line?

PPE 1

[jotheonah]

If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum.

[jotheonah]

Reason number one. Unexplained vote.

Not scummy.

Reason number two. General unhelpful-ness.

Definitely not scummy

Finally, I also just get a scummy vibe from him.

Not a case.

[MiX]

Vote: ari

[jotheonah]

Vote: ari

Perfectly timed bus. Well-done.

[MiX]

For the last time (or maybe just second I can't help myself) me and ari have PERFECT SYNERGY and would behave completely differently! Now I wish I got scum...

In all seriousness, joth just pointed out the non-existence of ari's case, which I think is towny (for joth) and points out...well, how ridiculous ari is. The problem is that in his scum game, he was completely different...but I need to sit down and think about my reads and I haven't done that yet so this feels okay.

[arishipshape]

I really don't like Ari's faust case, but I don't think it's malicious/scummy per se, just a bit of an indication that they're a newbie with little feel for people's meta, or the overall meta of f.ds mafia.

@Ari, hi! I don't think we've played before. Apologies for starting out our interaction with a criticism, but coming into a game with a blunt assertion that it's anti-town not to share everything, while obviously being unaware of the long history of this having been discussed in numerous games before, is a bit naive, and really isn't going to win over many of the vets. Faust is a seasoned player who knows what he's doing. He comes across as weirdly cantankerous sometimes, and economical with his words, but that's not alignment indicative. The only reliable tell I found for him being scum is that if you get into a situation where there's complex logical reasoning, he can sometime spin it the wrong way to cover for himself or his teammates as scum, but obviously won't use the same spin as town. It's not a very frequently-applicable tell :-(

In case it helps give you a framework for thinking about the more meta side of the game works here, consider that any given player, especially vets who've been playing such games with one another for years and years, is probably not thinking only of their win or loss in this one particular game. They've got form, there are things they've done before as scum, and things they've discussed previously with people who were their scum buddies in other games, but who might now be town while they're scum again (or vice versa!), and there are patterns of behaviour that tend to repeat. The pace of innovation in any given direction is limited by how people feel any changes in their behaviour might adversely affect their faction in this game, and also other people's perceptions of them in future games. If you're too ridiculously townie as town and can't emulate it when you're scum, your scum game suffers. If you're too unhelpful or abrasive as a player, people will more happily lynch you off even in your townier games. Players like faust are so ancient they've converged on some kind of an optimum presentation. (I (hope I can) get away with saying this, since I'm more ancient than faust is IRL, even though I'm a relative newbie in f.ds mafia terms, having only been playing mafia here for ~3 years).

PPE 6 or 7: not sure that needed an essay, but there you go :-P

Greetings. Bring on the criticism, it's pro town play. Thank you for the advice and context. I will keep it in mind. Unvote.

If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum.

This isn't the "if I were scum I wouldn't do this" defense, it was a admonition on everyone else for not addressing my lack of participation. Also, I said I "could" do X action, not I "would". Even after all this, I don't blame anyone who adds on scum points for that. That was a mistake.

Reason number one. Unexplained vote.

Not scummy.

Reason number two. General unhelpful-ness.

Definitely not scummy

Finally, I also just get a scummy vibe from him.

Not a case.

Refusing to provide the town with information is the definition of scummy! What does scum have that town doesn't? Information. The towns goal is to make up for their information deficit. In addition, after the context provided by Space I retracted my vote.

How is refusing to be helpful not scummy?

I didn't include that as a part of the case.

Vote: ari

Seems I'm on the lynch wagon faster than last game. MiX, I now know how you felt.

[Glooble]

And Glooble, why do you like mcmc's case on me?

Short version is the narrative of you as scum trying to subtly communicate with the traitor made a lot of sense to me. But now I'm rereading you for the sake of completeness and trying to support that read with evidence.

Not sure it's negative utility...I believe It's crucial to corner scum D2, provided Promoter has good reads. However, it depends on the Promoter and their target's reads a tad bit too much...but remember that it can't be (easily) influenced by scum. Overall I like the idea of claiming.

Apologies: when I said lay low, I meant exploit your newness to its full extent. Multiple bandwagons are absolutely town: just look how Promoter is negative utility precisely because it limits our options to two people. Also, you've seen town!Joseph do the exact same, yet you think it means they're more likely to be scum: why? I also believe town should be able to lie sometimes, it's sometimes useful and can blow the game wide open if they do it correctly.

What are your opinions on the current setup talk, that is, Promoter claim?

Bolding mine... this is a weird contradiction given that these posts are back-to-back.

If we have a mafia promoter the mafia traitor could claim promoter to signify to the mafia they exist and they know there is no town promoter.

Here is where mcmc suggests a traitor could claim promoter. I missed that this idea was initially suggested by mcmc I had been thinking MiX had said it first. MiX picks up on it here:

He's also right in that scum!Promoter won't claim and instead Traitor will, there's just no reason for them to claim.

Anyway the thing about this line is I don't think it's obvious. Remember the traitor has not had any time to talk to the other scum. Maybe it occurs to them to claim promoter, maybe it doesn't. But once mcmc says that, then it essentially becomes true. So it's strategically great for scum, but the traitor might not think to do it until mcmc suggests it. On the other hand once town is aware of the possibility the utility goes down (promoter isn't "pseudo IC" anymore.) So is mcmc scummy for pointing it out? COuld go either way. Is MiX scummy for acknowledging mcmc's logic then continuing to push for the claim? I think he is.

Sorry if that paragraph was a little obtuse, I just don't know how to state it more succinctly.

PPE 9

[jotheonah]

Refusing to provide the town with information is the definition of scummy! What does scum have that town doesn't? Information. The towns goal is to make up for their information deficit. In addition, after the context provided by Space I retracted my vote.

How is refusing to be helpful not scummy?

Let me turn that around for you: What does scum gain by being obviously unhelpful? Scum players want to be helpful; their helpfulness is just leading town down the wrong path. Wanton, willful unhelpfulness usually comes from town. Or Awaclus.

Second, let me disabuse you of the notion that town is a big happy family working together to solve a problem. We are a big happy family working together to solve a problem -- with a small happy family embedded in us that is working to stop the problem from being solved. If we adopt a philosophy of "everyone shares everything all the time", that helps scum, not town. Sometimes town players keep things to themselves for some period of town. It's actually the only way we can counteract the information asymmetry. Automatically giving all the information we have to town (and therefore also to scum) just furthers it.

[jotheonah]

For the record:

My case on ari = fully serious

My runner about Mix and Ari being partners = 60 percent serious, 40 percent messing with MiX

[arishipshape]

Refusing to provide the town with information is the definition of scummy! What does scum have that town doesn't? Information. The towns goal is to make up for their information deficit. In addition, after the context provided by Space I retracted my vote.

How is refusing to be helpful not scummy?

Let me turn that around for you: What does scum gain by being obviously unhelpful? Scum players want to be helpful; their helpfulness is just leading town down the wrong path. Wanton, willful unhelpfulness usually comes from town. Or Awaclus.

Second, let me disabuse you of the notion that town is a big happy family working together to solve a problem. We are a big happy family working together to solve a problem -- with a small happy family embedded in us that is working to stop the problem from being solved. If we adopt a philosophy of "everyone shares everything all the time", that helps scum, not town. Sometimes town players keep things to themselves for some period of town. It's actually the only way we can counteract the information asymmetry. Automatically giving all the information we have to town (and therefore also to scum) just furthers it.

Ok. I refuse to help anyone find scum ever again. I'm town now, right? Total unhelpful-ness, of the finest variety. And here, why don't I throw out a random vote for no reason? Vote: Jothenoah

What information (besides PR's, which is why I wanted to wait for a claim before lynching the people that didn't give reasons) does the town have that scum doesn't?

[arishipshape]

After re-reading my last post, that came off harsher than I meant it to be. Sorry.

[Glooble]

So something just occurred to me.

If we have a scum promoter, they want to set up a town v. town scenario. So they want to target a town player who they think will most likely target another town player. In other words, knowing everybody's reads is really, really helpful to them. We might want to keep a little more mum about who we think is town.

[arishipshape]

So something just occurred to me.

If we have a scum promoter, they want to set up a town v. town scenario. So they want to target a town player who they think will most likely target another town player. In other words, knowing everybody's reads is really, really helpful to them. We might want to keep a little more mum about who we think is town.

...That is a fantastic reason. I stand corrected. Unvote

[MiX]

Anyway the thing about this line is I don't think it's obvious. Remember the traitor has not had any time to talk to the other scum. Maybe it occurs to them to claim promoter, maybe it doesn't. But once mcmc says that, then it essentially becomes true. So it's strategically great for scum, but the traitor might not think to do it until mcmc suggests it. On the other hand once town is aware of the possibility the utility goes down (promoter isn't "pseudo IC" anymore.) So is mcmc scummy for pointing it out? COuld go either way. Is MiX scummy for acknowledging mcmc's logic then continuing to push for the claim? I think he is.

Well it had already occured to me, and I'm not even Traitor: why wouldn't they have thought about everything they can do? Oh, and I'm pretty sure scum would care more about consistency: I did notice that when writting it, but I felt like the utility of promoter was...weird...enough for me to say both things. I still don't know if it's good or not, and I'm not sure I need to know it considering we aren't claiming it.

So something just occurred to me.

If we have a scum promoter, they want to set up a town v. town scenario. So they want to target a town player who they think will most likely target another town player. In other words, knowing everybody's reads is really, really helpful to them. We might want to keep a little more mum about who we think is town.

We can take advantage of this situation by Forcing A Promoter Claim...okay I'll stop. Also these are really early reads, although you're right, this seems to matter more later in the day

Also ari is definitely feeling pressure: how many votes are on him?

[A Drowned Kernel]

For the last time (or maybe just second I can't help myself) me and ari have PERFECT SYNERGY and would behave completely differently! Now I wish I got scum...

In all seriousness, joth just pointed out the non-existence of ari's case, which I think is towny (for joth) and points out...well, how ridiculous ari is. The problem is that in his scum game, he was completely different...but I need to sit down and think about my reads and I haven't done that yet so this feels okay.

I mean, if you had recently played a scum game, and were playing with a bunch of people from that same game, would play in the exact same fashion?

[jotheonah]

What information (besides PR's, which is why I wanted to wait for a claim before lynching the people that didn't give reasons) does the town have that scum doesn't?

Their own reads, hunches, observations, scum tells, meta reads, town tells -- pretty much everything. And yeah, of course we have to share some of that because otherwise we all just sit here going "hrmm". But we all get to decide what we share and when, and some information is more useful when it's shared later. Let's say, for example, that I think Bob tends to overreact to votes on him when he's scum but not when he's town. Well in that case, maybe I can figure out Bob's alignment by voting for him, getting some other people to vote for him, and then observing his reactions. But if I start off saying "I'm voting for Bob now because I want to see how he reacts to this pressure vote, if he freaks out I'm gonna lynch him" well, that's not going to be super helpful.

[chairs]

I think ari is town. Too.... noisy? I guess is the word I want to use. Very few people can play the game the way ari is playing when they’re scum.

However I do think mix is scum.

vote: mix

[MiX]

However I do think mix is scum.

Nah, I'm just incredibly lazy and I'm pushing a (well, I guess it is) anti-town plan. Which IS scummy, but...would scum do that? No idea.

A lot of people are being towny right now...I think I might stick to the basics.

Vote: gkrieg, did he dissapear? Sure seemed like it.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 1.2

Clarity is such a beautiful thing, and often underrated by those who are confused. To be introduced to clarity is like taking a bath that cleans befuddlement. Except more like a shower, because baths are gross. These were the thoughts Uncleeurope had as he watched the truth about the Lyncher Doctor come to light.

MiX (5): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble, chairs
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
chairs (1): Joseph2302
jotheonah (1): A Drowned Kernel
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
gkrieg13 (1): MiX


Not voting (3): DatSwan, EFHW, arishipshape


With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
Day 1 ends Wednesday, 1st of May, at 5:30 ft.

[Joseph2302]

So something just occurred to me.

If we have a scum promoter, they want to set up a town v. town scenario. So they want to target a town player who they think will most likely target another town player. In other words, knowing everybody's reads is really, really helpful to them. We might want to keep a little more mum about who we think is town.

Hence why some of us aren't just giving them all away for free.....

[Joseph2302]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

[jotheonah]

I want to get on this very full MiX wagon because I want day one to end because day one is the worst, but at the same time deep down in my heart of hearts I think MiX is town.

[jotheonah]

So something just occurred to me.

If we have a scum promoter, they want to set up a town v. town scenario. So they want to target a town player who they think will most likely target another town player. In other words, knowing everybody's reads is really, really helpful to them. We might want to keep a little more mum about who we think is town.

Hence why some of us aren't just giving them all away for free.....

Maybe some of us are going a step further and flat out lying about our reads. YOU DON'T KNOW.

[MiX]

So something just occurred to me.

If we have a scum promoter, they want to set up a town v. town scenario. So they want to target a town player who they think will most likely target another town player. In other words, knowing everybody's reads is really, really helpful to them. We might want to keep a little more mum about who we think is town.

Hence why some of us aren't just giving them all away for free.....

Maybe some of us are going a step further and flat out lying about our reads. YOU DON'T KNOW.

Well, scum are...and you...hmm...you're scum right? I want to flip my vote again but it's quickly becoming useless the more I change it...

I want to get on this very full MiX wagon because I want day one to end because day one is the worst, but at the same time deep down in my heart of hearts I think MiX is town.

I am town. Useless, readless, anti-town town. But that doesn't mean I should die here...why do you hate day 1 anyway? Day 2 will be really weird with promoter, enjoy your freedom!

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: mix

[Glooble]

L-2, FYI.

[jotheonah]

why do you hate day 1 anyway?

Day 1 is literally people talking for the sake of talking. It's important and necessary and it is possible to catch scum during it. But it's the worst. And then you have to keep re-reading it all game.

[MiX]

why do you hate day 1 anyway?

Day 1 is literally people talking for the sake of talking. It's important and necessary and it is possible to catch scum during it. But it's the worst. And then you have to keep re-reading it all game.

Isn't that...every day ever? Relying on PRs is simply not possible due to setups being balanced, you can usually only narrow down to a 1v1. Talking D1 is the same as talking D4, except in D4 you have 3 other days of talking to base your reads. I would rather say lynching (or having reads in general) is way worse D1, which I suppose makes D1 worse? Eh.

vote: mix

Because...?

[Glooble]

Isn't that...every day ever? Relying on PRs is simply not possible due to setups being balanced, you can usually only narrow down to a 1v1. Talking D1 is the same as talking D4, except in D4 you have 3 other days of talking to base your reads. I would rather say lynching (or having reads in general) is way worse D1, which I suppose makes D1 worse? Eh.

It's not about the PRs, it's about the flips. Once someone dies, we know that person's alignment, and their interactions on day 1 give us additional info about everyone who's still alive.

[jotheonah]

Isn't that...every day ever? Relying on PRs is simply not possible due to setups being balanced, you can usually only narrow down to a 1v1. Talking D1 is the same as talking D4, except in D4 you have 3 other days of talking to base your reads. I would rather say lynching (or having reads in general) is way worse D1, which I suppose makes D1 worse? Eh.

It's not about the PRs, it's about the flips. Once someone dies, we know that person's alignment, and their interactions on day 1 give us additional info about everyone who's still alive.

This.

[MiX]

Isn't that...every day ever? Relying on PRs is simply not possible due to setups being balanced, you can usually only narrow down to a 1v1. Talking D1 is the same as talking D4, except in D4 you have 3 other days of talking to base your reads. I would rather say lynching (or having reads in general) is way worse D1, which I suppose makes D1 worse? Eh.

It's not about the PRs, it's about the flips. Once someone dies, we know that person's alignment, and their interactions on day 1 give us additional info about everyone who's still alive.

Ooooooh good point, I forgot about NKs! Withdrawn then.

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: mix

Because...?

Reasons.

[jotheonah]

vote: mix

Because...?

Reasons.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em eh?

[arishipshape]

MiX doesn't look particularly scummy to me. I have no reason to vote him, yet. I have no defense of him outright, except for his marked calmness with which he sits at L-3. I probably wont be joining this wagon. Feel free to give reasons to vote MiX, if anyone thinks it would be wise.

[MiX]

MiX doesn't look particularly scummy to me. I have no reason to vote him, yet. I have no defense of him outright, except for his marked calmness with which he sits at L-3. I probably wont be joining this wagon. Feel free to give reasons to vote MiX, if anyone thinks it would be wise.

My calmness is...I'm trying to muster up energy to reread and have reads. Untill then I deserve this wagon.

So Swan also hasn't talked today...so sad. Everytime I post I want to vote...I just want to vote...somewhere...but not sure where.

[EFHW]

I think ari is town. Too.... noisy? I guess is the word I want to use. Very few people can play the game the way ari is playing when they’re scum.

However I do think mix is scum.

vote: mix

I think ari sounds very self conscious. vote: ari

[faust]

Vote: ari

[faust]

So something just occurred to me.

If we have a scum promoter, they want to set up a town v. town scenario. So they want to target a town player who they think will most likely target another town player. In other words, knowing everybody's reads is really, really helpful to them. We might want to keep a little more mum about who we think is town.

I mean I'm all for holding back a bit, but a Gladiator should think twice about how they came to get that honor before picking a target.

[faust]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

[MiX]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

If we have a scum promoter

Hence why some of us aren't just giving them all away for free.....

Vote: faust

[chairs]

I think ari is town. Too.... noisy? I guess is the word I want to use. Very few people can play the game the way ari is playing when they’re scum.

However I do think mix is scum.

vote: mix

I think ari sounds very self conscious. vote: ari

That’s fair. I just thought it came off to me as frustrated newbie town

[Joseph2302]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

I thought it was a certainty that there was
Man this setup just confuses me more and more....

[MiX]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

I thought it was a certainty that there was
Man this setup just confuses me more and more....

Wait, you thought that there was always a traitor? I thought you were doing a hypothetical...still don't like how faust jumped here.

[Joseph2302]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

I thought it was a certainty that there was
Man this setup just confuses me more and more....

Wait, you thought that there was always a traitor? I thought you were doing a hypothetical...still don't like how faust jumped here.

I would've said "And there could be a traitor" otherwise. Which seems to be exactly what faust is picking up on
Because looking at the quadrant with traitor, no town can no for sure that there's a traitor, as the town roles also exist in other quadrants (I'm actually reading the quadrants competently now!)

[Swowl]

MiX doesn't look particularly scummy to me. I have no reason to vote him, yet. I have no defense of him outright, except for his marked calmness with which he sits at L-3. I probably wont be joining this wagon. Feel free to give reasons to vote MiX, if anyone thinks it would be wise.

My calmness is...I'm trying to muster up energy to reread and have reads. Untill then I deserve this wagon.

So Swan also hasn't talked today...so sad. Everytime I post I want to vote...I just want to vote...somewhere...but not sure where.

I am caught up and reading along - it was one my best friends birthday and the situation has had me wrapped up. I do have some things I want to get out, they will come soon.

[Joseph2302]

MiX doesn't look particularly scummy to me. I have no reason to vote him, yet. I have no defense of him outright, except for his marked calmness with which he sits at L-3. I probably wont be joining this wagon. Feel free to give reasons to vote MiX, if anyone thinks it would be wise.

My calmness is...I'm trying to muster up energy to reread and have reads. Untill then I deserve this wagon.

So Swan also hasn't talked today...so sad. Everytime I post I want to vote...I just want to vote...somewhere...but not sure where.

I am caught up and reading along - it was one my best friends birthday and the situation has had me wrapped up. I do have some things I want to get out, they will come soon.

L-3 isn't the sort of place where you have to immediately  get worked up about being lynched....

[SpaceAnemone]

So something just occurred to me.

If we have a scum promoter, they want to set up a town v. town scenario. So they want to target a town player who they think will most likely target another town player. In other words, knowing everybody's reads is really, really helpful to them. We might want to keep a little more mum about who we think is town.

...That is a fantastic reason. I stand corrected. Unvote

Would scum!Ari be aware enough of meta already to know that backing down like this in the face of evidence is usually worth townpoints? I suspect not, because in most ways they're coming off as very newbie-ish.

I agree with Chairs's assessment that Ari is quite noisy, in they there's a lot of "town should do X" content that experienced town just knows to skip over because it's non-helpful. I also think they're self-conscious, as EFHW said, but I don't necessarily see that being too alignment-indicative given the newbieness. So I'm reading them as non-scummy for now.

[SpaceAnemone]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

Happy to have someone else keep me company on the Joseph wagon. Sadly, I do think there's a pretty high chance Joseph's just being unobservant instead of explicitly scumslipping.

[EFHW]

I think ari is town. Too.... noisy? I guess is the word I want to use. Very few people can play the game the way ari is playing when they’re scum.

However I do think mix is scum.

vote: mix

I think ari sounds very self conscious. vote: ari

That’s fair. I just thought it came off to me as frustrated newbie town

It could, but having played that last game where he was scum, I don't think he needs any newb passes.

[mcmcsalot]

I have a strong urge to dissasociate myself with ari before we both get lynched. Does this mean I think ari's scum?

So much to go through...faust isn't scummy, ari, your case isn't really a case as it is stating faust's posts...which are pretty towny. Well, faust towny, which means I have no idea what he is.

joth, what's your ari case? And Glooble, why do you like mcmc's case on me?

two posts up

Can you quote ari's scummy line?

PPE 1

Pps lots, this looks like scum wondering how fast he can jump on another viable wagon he had not previously had a scum read on.

[mcmcsalot]

So something just occurred to me.

If we have a scum promoter, they want to set up a town v. town scenario. So they want to target a town player who they think will most likely target another town player. In other words, knowing everybody's reads is really, really helpful to them. We might want to keep a little more mum about who we think is town.

...That is a fantastic reason. I stand corrected. Unvote

Would scum!Ari be aware enough of meta already to know that backing down like this in the face of evidence is usually worth townpoints? I suspect not, because in most ways they're coming off as very newbie-ish.

I agree with Chairs's assessment that Ari is quite noisy, in they there's a lot of "town should do X" content that experienced town just knows to skip over because it's non-helpful. I also think they're self-conscious, as EFHW said, but I don't necessarily see that being too alignment-indicative given the newbieness. So I'm reading them as non-scummy for now.

So I actually think ari’s “Noisy-ness” has been prompted by other players criticism of his play not necessarily his case and his want to defend/elaborate his stance. His faust case was poor, but then people saying his dislike of people not giving reasons is bad because metas I think is actually the noisy part. I think ari is towny and joth slightly scummy for his pressure on ari

[chairs]

I don’t find joth scummy for that - seeing if you can find scum day 1 is always going to involve pressure, and even if we don’t lynch ari today we now have some red meat to review for later days too.

[faust]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

Happy to have someone else keep me company on the Joseph wagon. Sadly, I do think there's a pretty high chance Joseph's just being unobservant instead of explicitly scumslipping.

But that's not how we get more company!

[SpaceAnemone]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

Happy to have someone else keep me company on the Joseph wagon. Sadly, I do think there's a pretty high chance Joseph's just being unobservant instead of explicitly scumslipping.

But that's not how we get more company!

Unobservant Joseph doesn't necessarily imply he's town... I think for him it's not particularly alignment-indicative. I still don't think he's the worst person to lynch today.

[Galzria]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

Happy to have someone else keep me company on the Joseph wagon. Sadly, I do think there's a pretty high chance Joseph's just being unobservant instead of explicitly scumslipping.

But that's not how we get more company!

You also don’t get more company by pushing bad cases & making bad/unexplained votes.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

Happy to have someone else keep me company on the Joseph wagon. Sadly, I do think there's a pretty high chance Joseph's just being unobservant instead of explicitly scumslipping.

But that's not how we get more company!

Unobservant Joseph doesn't necessarily imply he's town... I think for him it's not particularly alignment-indicative. I still don't think he's the worst person to lynch today.

I would say that his comments suggest that if he is scum, he's the traitor

[MiX]

So does mcmc always have bad reads? It feels uncharacteristic, but the case itself isn't the worst so I don't know if he's scum or not.

On the other hand, gkrieg hasn't done much other than vote for me, and faust just moved his vote to Joseph for something that makes perfect sense in context...faust, do you have any other reason to vote there? Otherwise I think these are my scumreads...problem is these are all highly competent players that I don't want to lynch D1...

Haven't actually finished sorting reads (I'm ISOing everyone and that actually takes a while), but I wanted to ask these questions before I continue:

Third: I don’t believe the initial vote on Chairs for his lack of posting comes from scum all that often, but I’m more inclined to see the first person to jump at that as a reasonable vote as scummy.

What's your thought on Joseph here?

And

MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation.

What does this even mean? Can you point me to something that demonstrates it?

I haven't seen the answers and they seemed important (yes, they're all implicit defenses but I see no harm in the first question and the second one would help me understand mcmc's case better).


Original thought: Space, why are you voting Joseph?

[Galzria]

What’s strange for Mcmc is his tunneling. It’s uncharacteristic for him to make an unwavering D1 read that he then continues to pursue by construing every post by that player as having a scum bias/narrative.

[Galzria]

MiX, how do you feel about Joth so far?

[MiX]

What’s strange for Mcmc is his tunneling. It’s uncharacteristic for him to make an unwavering D1 read that he then continues to pursue by construing every post by that player as having a scum bias/narrative.

That's one way of putting it, yeah. Thanks!

MiX, how do you feel about Joth so far?

He still feels anti-town, but not sure if he's scummy...I believe I'm reading everything he does as scummy, which at this point seems to be my bias more than a sign he's scum.

Did you deliberately choose to ignore my question?

[EFHW]

What’s strange for Mcmc is his tunneling. It’s uncharacteristic for him to make an unwavering D1 read that he then continues to pursue by construing every post by that player as having a scum bias/narrative.

That's not so strange for him.  vote: Galzria

[Galzria]

What’s strange for Mcmc is his tunneling. It’s uncharacteristic for him to make an unwavering D1 read that he then continues to pursue by construing every post by that player as having a scum bias/narrative.

That's not so strange for him.  vote: Galzria

It’s highly unusual for him.

[Galzria]

What’s strange for Mcmc is his tunneling. It’s uncharacteristic for him to make an unwavering D1 read that he then continues to pursue by construing every post by that player as having a scum bias/narrative.

That's one way of putting it, yeah. Thanks!

MiX, how do you feel about Joth so far?

He still feels anti-town, but not sure if he's scummy...I believe I'm reading everything he does as scummy, which at this point seems to be my bias more than a sign he's scum.

Did you deliberately choose to ignore my question?

Can you requote it? I didn’t deliberately ignore anything, but certainly may have missed it. If you’re busy though, I’m sure I’ll be able to find it later.

[SpaceAnemone]

Original thought: Space, why are you voting Joseph?

The normal meta reasons that I vote him, coupled with the fact I don't think I've seen better evidence that anyone else is scum. At least not enough evidence to get over the threshold of me wanting to move my vote.

[mcmcsalot]

So does mcmc always have bad reads? It feels uncharacteristic, but the case itself isn't the worst so I don't know if he's scum or not.

When I started I was 5/0 as mafia and very bad as town, I'm a sweet talker who tunnels HARD.

MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation.

What does this even mean? Can you point me to something that demonstrates it?

I haven't seen the answers and they seemed important (yes, they're all implicit defenses but I see no harm in the first question and the second one would help me understand mcmc's case better).


Original thought: Space, why are you voting Joseph?

What i mean to say is Mix feels ro me to be playing as though he has other people in mind and there are very few town players who think about other townies as the post off the cuff. This would insinuate that Mix has partners and feels the need to "play for his team"

[A Drowned Kernel]

So does mcmc always have bad reads? It feels uncharacteristic, but the case itself isn't the worst so I don't know if he's scum or not.

When I started I was 5/0 as mafia and very bad as town, I'm a sweet talker who tunnels HARD.

MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation.

What does this even mean? Can you point me to something that demonstrates it?

I haven't seen the answers and they seemed important (yes, they're all implicit defenses but I see no harm in the first question and the second one would help me understand mcmc's case better).


Original thought: Space, why are you voting Joseph?

What i mean to say is Mix feels ro me to be playing as though he has other people in mind and there are very few town players who think about other townies as the post off the cuff. This would insinuate that Mix has partners and feels the need to "play for his team"

I don't see what you mean- or at least I don't see how it applies specifically to mix's posts. I also don't know if I agree that most town players don't "think about other townies" if I understand you correctly. Are you saying that town is more likely to speak to "the group" while scum engages one-on-one? Because in my experience, it's if anything the opposite.

[faust]

You also don’t get more company by pushing bad cases & making bad/unexplained votes.

Actually, usually I do.

[mcmcsalot]

So does mcmc always have bad reads? It feels uncharacteristic, but the case itself isn't the worst so I don't know if he's scum or not.

When I started I was 5/0 as mafia and very bad as town, I'm a sweet talker who tunnels HARD.

MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation.

What does this even mean? Can you point me to something that demonstrates it?

I haven't seen the answers and they seemed important (yes, they're all implicit defenses but I see no harm in the first question and the second one would help me understand mcmc's case better).


Original thought: Space, why are you voting Joseph?

What i mean to say is Mix feels ro me to be playing as though he has other people in mind and there are very few town players who think about other townies as the post off the cuff. This would insinuate that Mix has partners and feels the need to "play for his team"

I don't see what you mean- or at least I don't see how it applies specifically to mix's posts. I also don't know if I agree that most town players don't "think about other townies" if I understand you correctly. Are you saying that town is more likely to speak to "the group" while scum engages one-on-one? Because in my experience, it's if anything the opposite.

No I am saying most town players think about "how I feel, and what would I do in this scenario". Scum has a higher tenancy to think "whats best for my team, and how would town act in this scenario". So scum can be found when a player posts something that doesn't feel authentic to how that player should feel. Mix has played strong controversial games as town/sk (all individuals) I expect his first team game to look more like he is playing here

[mcmcsalot]

What’s strange for Mcmc is his tunneling. It’s uncharacteristic for him to make an unwavering D1 read that he then continues to pursue by construing every post by that player as having a scum bias/narrative.

woah woah woah woah woah (drunk ama) find a game im town and havent tunneled I DARE you

[Swowl]

Getting my posts together, but I do want to say that I both agree and disagree with Galz on the MCMC thing:
MCMC for sure does tunnel early days... but like... changes lanes a lot too, if that makes sense? From what I have played with them they will normally find a few spots to tunnel fairly hard, not just one, but they will really really push them.

That being said, I have found they do it as both skum and town - So, IDK if there is anything to be taken from it or not.

I do not think pursuing MCMC based on this idea would be a great use of our time.


@EFHW - Is Galz more skummy than MiX is towny to you?

[Galzria]

What’s strange for Mcmc is his tunneling. It’s uncharacteristic for him to make an unwavering D1 read that he then continues to pursue by construing every post by that player as having a scum bias/narrative.

woah woah woah woah woah (drunk ama) find a game im town and havent tunneled I DARE you

My personal experience with you is that your reads, when town, are generally above average - and that while you may find someone scummy early on, it’s over a specific point of contest - not an ongoing and building narrative that turns everything your read says against them.

[jotheonah]

(drunk ama)

How would you order from scummiest to least scummy: MiX, ari, Joseph

[Galzria]

unvote

[Swowl]

Regarding the MiX Wagon:

I think that the only skum narrative for bringing up or supporting the Town Promoter Claim is if Skum knows they have the Promoter, and not Town.

I think there is a chance that skum would of brought up the claim in that instance, as it would both take time away from the early day and it would leave everyone wondering which promoter exists - the skum one not claiming, or the mafia one staying silent (or skum could fake claim somewhat safely in that situation, but I find that less likely).

I think there is a chance that skum knows there is a Town Promoter, and used the engage to attempt to isolate a kill selection based on PRs.

I do not think that it is likely that a Town player would pursue the claim of the Promoter to a great extent, especially to the point of actually claiming something. They could do it as Goon though.

All of this has me looking at ADK and MiX. Given how popular the MiX wagon is this early on Day 1... It kind of has me leaning "not MiX" right now.

I am going to read ADK back, but for now:

Vote: ADK

[Swowl]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

Happy to have someone else keep me company on the Joseph wagon. Sadly, I do think there's a pretty high chance Joseph's just being unobservant instead of explicitly scumslipping.

But that's not how we get more company!

You also don’t get more company by pushing bad cases & making bad/unexplained votes.

sure you do - you just get bad company

[mcmcsalot]

Getting my posts together, but I do want to say that I both agree and disagree with Galz on the MCMC thing:
MCMC for sure does tunnel early days... but like... changes lanes a lot too, if that makes sense? From what I have played with them they will normally find a few spots to tunnel fairly hard, not just one, but they will really really push them.

That being said, I have found they do it as both skum and town - So, IDK if there is anything to be taken from it or not.

I do not think pursuing MCMC based on this idea would be a great use of our time.


@EFHW - Is Galz more skummy than MiX is towny to you?

ypu dont explain this this articulately as mafia you're my ic

[mcmcsalot]

(drunk ama)

How would you order from scummiest to least scummy: MiX, ari, Joseph

Mix >>> Ari ~~~Joseph

I have a mix scum read, I fnd ari townie but I don't know thier voice, joseph in playing very standard per them

[mcmcsalot]

What’s strange for Mcmc is his tunneling. It’s uncharacteristic for him to make an unwavering D1 read that he then continues to pursue by construing every post by that player as having a scum bias/narrative.

woah woah woah woah woah (drunk ama) find a game im town and havent tunneled I DARE you

My personal experience with you is that your reads, when town, are generally above average - and that while you may find someone scummy early on, it’s over a specific point of contest - not an ongoing and building narrative that turns everything your read says against them.

interesting because you knew me as a child when my reads were bad. I think we may have a very interesting dynamic due to the fact that when I started I was a kid and looked up to you (I had a great authority figure in robz) because you were(are) older and wiser then me. YOu were gone from the forum and I am quite different since you have returned (a much better town player with similar strong reads)

[mcmcsalot]

also where are my fun DAMA people, it has been awhile

[Galzria]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

Happy to have someone else keep me company on the Joseph wagon. Sadly, I do think there's a pretty high chance Joseph's just being unobservant instead of explicitly scumslipping.

But that's not how we get more company!

You also don’t get more company by pushing bad cases & making bad/unexplained votes.

sure you do - you just get bad company

I get the premise - except scum aren’t robots and don’t jump to join bad wagons that lack much justification or are based on a seriously faulty premise.

[Galzria]

also where are my fun DAMA people, it has been awhile

I’m one beer & one cocktail in... but I was at work for 10 hours and am just tired at this point.

[jotheonah]

Mcmc: What’s your favorite pet scumtell or town tell?

[mcmcsalot]

Mcmc: What’s your favorite pet scumtell or town tell?

I;m confused, my favorite pet is a chicken.

My scum tell's are all pretty player based (hence my ari read apprehension) but I would say acting as though you have though your post through more then town would is my favorite scum tell.

My favorite town tell is playing with so much passion that your emotion comes through. it has been faked only a few times back in the day by galz himself and ash/yuma

[Swowl]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

Happy to have someone else keep me company on the Joseph wagon. Sadly, I do think there's a pretty high chance Joseph's just being unobservant instead of explicitly scumslipping.

But that's not how we get more company!

You also don’t get more company by pushing bad cases & making bad/unexplained votes.

sure you do - you just get bad company

I get the premise - except scum aren’t robots and don’t jump to join bad wagons that lack much justification or are based on a seriously faulty premise.

I mean, agree to disagree? I think I have found a majority of my sure fire skum reads based on when they are backed into a corner and have to get on a shitty wagon for a shitty reason at a shitty time.
Your point is taken - it's Day 1, their maneuverability is at a maximum, it is not really relevant now. But coming from someone that pretty much bases their ability to find skum on "making shitty cases", I have to disagree on principle.

[MiX]

Can you requote it? I didn’t deliberately ignore anything, but certainly may have missed it. If you’re busy though, I’m sure I’ll be able to find it later.

Third: I don’t believe the initial vote on Chairs for his lack of posting comes from scum all that often, but I’m more inclined to see the first person to jump at that as a reasonable vote as scummy.

What's your thought on Joseph here?

I still don't understand mcmc's case on me...?

What i mean to say is Mix feels ro me to be playing as though he has other people in mind and there are very few town players who think about other townies as the post off the cuff. This would insinuate that Mix has partners and feels the need to "play for his team"

Do you have a feel of what players I'm thinking about? You shouldn't say which, but do you have concrete names or just a feeling that I do?

No I am saying most town players think about "how I feel, and what would I do in this scenario". Scum has a higher tenancy to think "whats best for my team, and how would town act in this scenario". So scum can be found when a player posts something that doesn't feel authentic to how that player should feel. Mix has played strong controversial games as town/sk (all individuals) I expect his first team game to look more like he is playing here

Well I immediately got lynched in the first game, no reason for me to do the same, whereas in the second game I had every intention to play exactly like the first one. Here I wanted to change, and I felt like the promoter talk was something pro-town that I believed needed to go forward. I was wrong, but at least I tried. Can you quote when I thought more about "what town would do in this scenario" and not "what I would do in this scenario"? Just so I have a feel of what you think are examples.

What’s strange for Mcmc is his tunneling. It’s uncharacteristic for him to make an unwavering D1 read that he then continues to pursue by construing every post by that player as having a scum bias/narrative.

woah woah woah woah woah (drunk ama) find a game im town and havent tunneled I DARE you

Just posting this to say that I believe you didn't in RMM52, but I'll reread that (at least D1) and come back to this.

[MiX]

Vote: gkrieg, faust is much more townier than I thought now that I ISOd him. Reads are still in a flux state but I don't want my vote on faust anymore.

Why are Sundays always this slow?

[chairs]

I’m bored at a restaurant waiting to be seated so AMA

[Joseph2302]

Vote: gkrieg, faust is much more townier than I thought now that I ISOd him. Reads are still in a flux state but I don't want my vote on faust anymore.

Why are Sundays always this slow?

Faust is town, but dunno how that makes gkrieg scummy?

[Joseph2302]

To me, faust and ari seem town
Feeling less towny on MiX
And like most games I play, space seems somewhat scummy to me, but maybe just confirmation bias

[MiX]

Vote: gkrieg, faust is much more townier than I thought now that I ISOd him. Reads are still in a flux state but I don't want my vote on faust anymore.

Why are Sundays always this slow?

Faust is town, but dunno how that makes gkrieg scummy?

gkrieg's just not towny, which is more than I can say about almost everyone here...I also don't want to vote for mcmc, feels OMGUSy, and maybe he does play like this (although I didn't see it in RMM52).

To me, faust and ari seem town
Feeling less towny on MiX
And like most games I play, space seems somewhat scummy to me, but maybe just confirmation bias

I agree with your thought on Space, but I think I need to ask them a question.

@Space, what do you think of the promoter claim?

[EFHW]

@EFHW - Is Galz more skummy than MiX is towny to you?

I don't have a particular read on MiX.

[mcmcsalot]

MiX as to rmm52, I got killed night 1 in an 18 person multiball game so that’s not a great day to try and match to my typical play.

[MiX]

MiX as to rmm52, I got killed night 1 in an 18 person multiball game so that’s not a great day to try and match to my typical play.

But I had such a big townread on you! I'll reread your past games, however. When I have time. Untill then I really liked your RMM52 performance and I was expecting more of it, not this tunnel on town no less. I guess I'll have to try harder to read you this game.

@EFHW - Is Galz more skummy than MiX is towny to you?

I don't have a particular read on MiX.

Do you think Galz is scummier than...everyone? Why is your case (Galz thinks mcmc is being uncharacteristic when he's not) indicative of scum!Galzria? Just to see what Galz's meta is, I wouldn't see this as scummy by default.

[SpaceAnemone]

And like most games I play, space seems somewhat scummy to me, but maybe just confirmation bias

I agree with your thought on Space, but I think I need to ask them a question.

It's not so surprising that Joseph wants to vote for me, given that I have a habit of starting out voting for him any time he uses that same unimaginative game opening.

@Space, what do you think of the promoter claim?

I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about it, TBH. A lot of discussion had already happened by the time I actually went back to read the setup in enough detail to start forming opinions.

Overall, I believe that any plan based around "town should do this, and they have to because it's townie" is bound to fail because even if there's clearly a best play for town (which is not a scenario I think we're in here), there's also always at least one townie who's going to do the opposite just because they don't see the utility, don't think it's fun enough to aim purely for optimal play (getting a reputation for it could hurt a player's future scum games), don't like being told what to do, or a mixture of all of the above. I'm pretty sure something like the Worms RMM that faust ran a while back was a good example of a bunch of those factors occurring, at least as I remember my point of view being back then. (Though I do have a really sucky memory, so ymmv on a re-read!).

I do think that faust brought up an interesting point for this current game, about the possibility of lynching before the deadline by which the gladiator has to challenge their opponent. Presumably up until that point, we can all vote freely, rather than only being able to vote for the gladiator (is that correct?), so trying to get a lynch done by then could be an option. Equally, I see no reason to discuss that option right now because it can be left till D2, and any decisions we make now only serve to decrease the amount of conditional planning scum will otherwise have to do in the night phase.

[Uncleeurope]

Presumably up until that point, we can all vote freely, rather than only being able to vote for the gladiator (is that correct?)

Yes.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: space

That is one of the longest non posts I have ever seen.

[EFHW]

MiX as to rmm52, I got killed night 1 in an 18 person multiball game so that’s not a great day to try and match to my typical play.

But I had such a big townread on you! I'll reread your past games, however. When I have time. Untill then I really liked your RMM52 performance and I was expecting more of it, not this tunnel on town no less. I guess I'll have to try harder to read you this game.

@EFHW - Is Galz more skummy than MiX is towny to you?

I don't have a particular read on MiX.

Do you think Galz is scummier than...everyone? Why is your case (Galz thinks mcmc is being uncharacteristic when he's not) indicative of scum!Galzria? Just to see what Galz's meta is, I wouldn't see this as scummy by default.

He was trying to make mcmc seem scummy by spinning things in a way that people tend to go along with without realizing. I'd go back to ari as well. I think by day 2 I should be able to participate more meaningfully.

[chairs]

How many games have ari and mix each played on this forum? I’m on my cell

[MiX]

How many games have ari and mix each played on this forum? I’m on my cell

1 and 2, respectively.

vote: space

That is one of the longest non posts I have ever seen.

Same thought as me, sadly sounds like normal Space to me...I guess I need to metaread them as well.

He was trying to make mcmc seem scummy by spinning things in a way that people tend to go along with without realizing. I'd go back to ari as well. I think by day 2 I should be able to participate more meaningfully.

This would be a good case on Galz...if you didn't end it with "oh maybe ari instead". Beats my gkrieg "case", so

Vote: Galzria untill I metaread mcmc and Space.

[faust]

vote: space

That is one of the longest non posts I have ever seen.

It seems to me that Space was asked a question and they answered it.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 1.3

A land of liars
A sea of swirling deceit
Clarity masked

MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, chairs, A Drowned Kernel
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
Galzria (2): EFHW, MiX
A Drowned Kernel (1): DatSwan
chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot



Not voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria


With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
Day 1 ends Wednesday, 1st of May, at 5:30 ft.

[Joseph2302]

vote: space

That is one of the longest non posts I have ever seen.

It seems to me that Space was asked a question and they answered it.

Not convinced it was a really scummy post from Space either

[Joseph2302]

Vote: galz

[faust]

So... I have already crossed that bridge, so I may as well continue. Let's look at some of ADK's posts:

Good morning everyone!

So the thought I had on the setup is that I think the town promoter (if they exist) should just claim off the bat. It would create a pseudo-IC and give us info on the setup without actually revealing anything to scum, and it isn't a PR that we're worried about scum knowing about since it's negative utility. So unless there's something that I'm missing, there's really no downside to them claiming.

How does it create a pseudo-IC? What stops the scum-aligned promoter from claiming town promoter?

They would risk getting caught eventually if the traitor ever flips.

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

I think MiX is scum pushing for traitor[ to claim. Mild suspicion

I don't think a traitor would claim, though; it's too easy for them to get caught.

I would say that his comments suggest that if he is scum, he's the traitor

(emphasis mine)

ADK namedrops the Traitor like.. a lot. Remember that a Traitor wants to signal to their teammates. Especially that second post looks heavily like "look I'm the Traitor but I don't want to claim".

Now there is some issue with this case and that is that if we have a town Promoter, they know that there is no Traitor, thus if you buy into my case you inadvertently claim non-Promoter. I'm posting this now since I have already virtually revealed that I'm not a Promoter by hastily accusing Joseph of knowing that there is a Traitor. I'm not sure what to do here exactly, but I wanted these thoughts out.

[SpaceAnemone]

vote: space

That is one of the longest non posts I have ever seen.

How would you have answered MiX's question, if your actual thoughts were in line with the answer I posted?

[SpaceAnemone]

How many games have ari and mix each played on this forum? I’m on my cell

I think MiX was mislynched D1 in his first game, but I wasn't there and haven't read it. I played in MiX's second game. He was SK, and was also so unapologetically aggressive/rude that he caused several of us to consider quitting the game outright. In the end WCD and I king-made Ash (Mafia) over MiX, mainly because we couldn't countenance that kind of behaviour being awarded a win (and there was no way for us to win as town). He's been a lot more controlled this game so far, which is a hopeful sign. In the game we played, his analytical thinking ended up being pretty strong, so he could be a later-game asset.

[chairs]

D1 pass for ari then. Almost said D1 pass for mix but that description of their behavior does not enamour me to them.

[chairs]

Oh and Faust makes sense.

vote: adk

[MiX]

D1 pass for ari then. Almost said D1 pass for mix but that description of their behavior does not enamour me to them.

Don't worry, a lot of it was influenced by getting SK, someone who doesn't really care for day talk; regardless of my alignment here I have a lot more incentives to not screw up everything.

Oh, Space's town, by the way. Good to know, right?

Oh and Faust makes sense.

vote: adk

Quoting this so I don't have to edit faust's wall: he's missing one thing in his case, something that I thought was really important about ADK regarding his promoter talk, that faust seems to have missed. But hopefully it's not important (or I misremembered something).

I like all these soft non-promoter claims, but I fear they're worse than not claiming...

Random thought: faust, do you think ADK coming up with the plan alligns with your traitor case?

[jotheonah]

Giving newbies day 1 passes is kind, but not optimal. Especially when said newbies are scummy.

[Glooble]

Random thought: faust, do you think ADK coming up with the plan alligns with your traitor case?

I know I'm not the one you asked, but to me it seems really unlikely that a traitor pushes for the town promoter to claim and explicitly claims "not promoter". Feels like it seriously limits their options later for very little benefit.

[MiX]

Giving newbies day 1 passes is kind, but not optimal. Especially when said newbies are scummy.

What did ari do that's scummy? Say he's scum? Seems weak, given that you have a great example of a scum!ari. Also, he somewhat dug his own grave D2 last time, so I suggest we let him slide untill then, at least.

Who else would you vote?

Random thought: faust, do you think ADK coming up with the plan alligns with your traitor case?

I know I'm not the one you asked, but to me it seems really unlikely that a traitor pushes for the town promoter to claim and explicitly claims "not promoter". Feels like it seriously limits their options later for very little benefit.

When did he claim "not promoter"?

[Glooble]

When did he claim "not promoter"?

Okay, turns out I misremembered. It was ari who followed you in claiming "not promoter". For some reason I thought it was ADK. I should have checked.

[MiX]

When did he claim "not promoter"?

Okay, turns out I misremembered. It was ari who followed you in claiming "not promoter". For some reason I thought it was ADK. I should have checked.

Vote: Glooble because I'm currently reading M115, Galz was scum and I don't recall the same behavior here. Also, that game has a lot of players here, would reccomend for people that don't know everyone's meta (I know ari'll need it).

Treat the above vote as FoS + Unvote, I need to reread Glooble too...so much effort!

[jotheonah]

Giving newbies day 1 passes is kind, but not optimal. Especially when said newbies are scummy.

What did ari do that's scummy? Say he's scum? Seems weak, given that you have a great example of a scum!ari. Also, he somewhat dug his own grave D2 last time, so I suggest we let him slide untill then, at least.

Who else would you vote?

vote:MiX

[jotheonah]

vote: MiX if the space matters

[mcmcsalot]

vote: space

That is one of the longest non posts I have ever seen.

How would you have answered MiX's question, if your actual thoughts were in line with the answer I posted?

That’s a very difficult thought exercise. Essentially you said lots had been already discussed about the promoter claim (which is irrelevant and serves to excuse your lack of thoughts on it), you said you don’t like the idea of plans where townies should do something purely because it’s “towny”, which is another word for pro town. I disagree with your opinion there and think you basically said you don’t like plans because they are difficult to pull off and you don’t like directing players. It’s a fine opinion to have but you took a really long way to say it.

I think it’s a scummy post because you could have said. “I don’t have many thoughts about the promoter claim, I don’t want to discuss it much more, and I don’t like town directing plans as a whole.”  But that would have sounded really scummy so you added a lot of fluff and overexplaination of your thoughts.

[MiX]

vote: MiX if the space matters

Case? I might get lynched today, time to take proactive measure.

Mcmc is incredibly weird, not sure what to think...

[faust]

Random thought: faust, do you think ADK coming up with the plan alligns with your traitor case?

I mean, I think the most likely thing is that he thought it was a good idea independently, and then because he knows it is of no consequence to the game (there is no town Promoter) he tried to generate some activity from it.

[SpaceAnemone]

That’s a very difficult thought exercise. Essentially you said lots had been already discussed about the promoter claim (which is irrelevant and serves to excuse your lack of thoughts on it)

Mosty, I was excusing my lack of commenting on it because I didn't have any thoughts on it until after the discussion took place.

you said you don’t like the idea of plans where townies should do something purely because it’s “towny”, which is another word for pro town. I disagree with your opinion there and think you basically said you don’t like plans because they are difficult to pull off and you don’t like directing players. It’s a fine opinion to have but you took a really long way to say it.

You are confusing "don't like" and "have completely lost faith in". I love the idea of coming up with foolproof plans around economic use of information, leveraging information flow in games like this and trying to construct a win for town. I do not think that this promoter thing offers anything like that, though.

I think it’s a scummy post because you could have said. “I don’t have many thoughts about the promoter claim, I don’t want to discuss it much more, and I don’t like town directing plans as a whole.”  But that would have sounded really scummy so you added a lot of fluff and overexplaination of your thoughts.

That would also have been a lie, because I really like well-constructed plans to get town ahead by making sure everyone reveals exactly the right information in exactly the right order. I'm super-frustrated when people refuse to play along with something that has a clear logical benefit. However, nobody is offering that level of proof for promoter-claiming, and I didn't notice anything great either, so I think it's better to focus on other ways of catching scum.

[SpaceAnemone]

Note that my post that mcmc thinks is so scummy did another useful pro-town thing: it boosted the signal on faust's comment about the possibility of a quick-lynch before the Gladiator deadline kicks in, and obtained clear mod confirmation that it's a viable plan, which avoids uncertainty during the critical window at the start of D2.

I did also say that I don't think we should do any pre-planning around that till D2, but the idea itself was already accessible to scum, so it's not like I hurt our chances there. Furthermore, if it's being discussed at this level, a scum Gladiator has less excuse to say "oops, it didn't occur to me that we should hold out till deadline" if they come into the thread naming a second player. Same goes for avoiding a derp!town move.

Basically, I think it's pro-town to point out to whomever the gladiator is that it's a good idea to hold off and let town have some rapid start-of-D2 discussion before naming anyone else to the 1-v-1.

[MiX]

Note that my post that mcmc thinks is so scummy did another useful pro-town thing: it boosted the signal on faust's comment about the possibility of a quick-lynch before the Gladiator deadline kicks in, and obtained clear mod confirmation that it's a viable plan, which avoids uncertainty during the critical window at the start of D2.

I did also say that I don't think we should do any pre-planning around that till D2, but the idea itself was already accessible to scum, so it's not like I hurt our chances there. Furthermore, if it's being discussed at this level, a scum Gladiator has less excuse to say "oops, it didn't occur to me that we should hold out till deadline" if they come into the thread naming a second player. Same goes for avoiding a derp!town move.

Basically, I think it's pro-town to point out to whomever the gladiator is that it's a good idea to hold off and let town have some rapid start-of-D2 discussion before naming anyone else to the 1-v-1.

Did you really need to defend your (in your words) "pro-town post" again? Saying that you accomplished a pro-town thing is not, by itself, a pro-town thing. Did you think your previous explanation was insuficient, or are you scumreading mcmc for not seeing the obvious townieness of your long post? Otherwise it feels you're doing what mcmc said is scummy...for essencially no reason. Do you want to be scumread? Overall I'm confused by the necessity of this post.

[jotheonah]

When did he claim "not promoter"?

Okay, turns out I misremembered. It was ari who followed you in claiming "not promoter". For some reason I thought it was ADK. I should have checked.

Vote: Glooble because I'm currently reading M115, Galz was scum and I don't recall the same behavior here. Also, that game has a lot of players here, would reccomend for people that don't know everyone's meta (I know ari'll need it).

Treat the above vote as FoS + Unvote, I need to reread Glooble too...so much effort!

This post reads flailing scum to me. Could be flailing town, but definitely could be flailing scum. Plus, I was staying off the MiX wagon because it felt scummy how quickly it was building. But now it feels scummy how much it's stalled out.

[MiX]

When did he claim "not promoter"?

Okay, turns out I misremembered. It was ari who followed you in claiming "not promoter". For some reason I thought it was ADK. I should have checked.

Vote: Glooble because I'm currently reading M115, Galz was scum and I don't recall the same behavior here. Also, that game has a lot of players here, would reccomend for people that don't know everyone's meta (I know ari'll need it).

Treat the above vote as FoS + Unvote, I need to reread Glooble too...so much effort!

This post reads flailing scum to me. Could be flailing town, but definitely could be flailing scum. Plus, I was staying off the MiX wagon because it felt scummy how quickly it was building. But now it feels scummy how much it's stalled out.

You, my friend, have the wrong idea of scum!MiX. Alas, that'll take a while to appear. Just read D2 of RMM52 where I was on the rocks, did I flail? I believe not (maybe I did...), but you're the judge of that.

[gkrieg13]

Currently feeling like procrastinating, so I'm going to read back through some stuff.

[gkrieg13]

I have a lot of predictions but no reads...

Unvote. I'll have to try harder, haven't put much effort into this yet.

This is a little bit scummy, but not super scummy.

[gkrieg13]

First off: Super sorry I didn't get around to this yesterday night like I said I would. My computer kept restarting in the middle of me constructing my posts, and I got tired, so I went to bed. I'm here now. But I'm kinda miffed at the lack of suspicion on me. If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum. Time for me to join the fray!
My thoughts on promoter versus Vig: Vig is an extra kill. Promoter is limiting the kill we are already entitled to. Vig>Promoter. I'm torn on whether the promoter should claim though. I feel like it's negative utility, so scum wouldn't want to kill, so scum will be able to kill our other power roles, but if the promoter plays smart they can influence the game for the better (assuming we got the town promoter). I think it's safer to just not claim. That way maf can accidentally kill promoter instead of another pr.
Also, Jothenoah and Faust: I'm really REALLY not a fan of unexplained votes. Explanation provides more information to the town, which is always good. Barring being a PR or something. I'd recommend one of them for the day 2 lynch if promoter doesn't throw a wrench in that and they don't claim some PR.
My thoughts on voting: Why are we voting MiX? Sure, he's not the towniest town to ever town, but I don't see to much scumminess. Anyone wanna explain?
In conclusion to this opening paragraph, everybody ask me hard questions! I want to answer them and prove I'm town!

As far as players go I wish I knew arishape better because I feel like if I did I would know their alignment already. They seem to be playing relatively straightforward and not a lot of pre-thought to their posts.

I have one game to my name.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19407.0
In this game, I was scum. Feel free to read it over. Anyways, you are absolutely correct in my straightforwardness. I try not to mask, deceive, or be unclear in any way, shape, or form, so as to leave no room for any misinterpretation, which is a scum's friend.

To be frank, you did the same things in the game you quoted.

Correct. And I was obviously scum. Ergo, my strategy revealed the scum. Therefore, it is pro town. I'll probably have to come up with a better strategy for when I'm scum... But hey, i don't need to worry about that this game!

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

I think MiX is scum pushing for traitor to claim. Mild suspicion

...Why do you think this?

You may want to put more white space in your posts like these, this is really hard to read.

[gkrieg13]

First off: Super sorry I didn't get around to this yesterday night like I said I would. My computer kept restarting in the middle of me constructing my posts, and I got tired, so I went to bed. I'm here now. But I'm kinda miffed at the lack of suspicion on me. If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum. Time for me to join the fray!

is the scummiest thing I've ever read. And then there's this:

My thoughts on voting: Why are we voting MiX? Sure, he's not the towniest town to ever town, but I don't see to much scumminess. Anyone wanna explain?

Followed immediately by Mix jumping to ari's defense for my one vote? Guys, get better at being partners.

I pretty much agree with this. Town points to Joth.

[gkrieg13]

Hey, we are REALLY good at being partners, okay? If it were us you would see a lot more direct intetaction (I actually planned a little bit if I got scum with ari only since we would both be newbies).

"Jokes" aside: what makes that first part scummy? For me it says "Hello my name is arishipshape and I love to make long hard to read posts about everything" which doesn't seem alignment indicative.

PPE 1: I truly am trying to make Traitor claim.

...Hard to read? I'm insulted. I'll try to cut down on the excess verbiage, if that's what everyone thinks though.
Allow me to rephrase. Anyone on the MiX wagon, care to explain why MiX trying to make traitor claim makes MiX scum?

Lol, hadn't read this yet...

[gkrieg13]

Faust, you still haven't explained your vote.

I'm so glad you pointed that out, or else I would never have noticed.

For reals though, I think it is soon time to explain, but I don't have the time just now.

Has faust been doing this kind of thing a lot lately?  I don't remember seeing this coyness from him before.

[gkrieg13]

If everyone says they're not the promoter, we can conclude the promoter is scum.

Or that the promoter decided they would rather not come forward.

Sorry I was going on the assumption that a town player wouldn't outright lie.

There are times when it is good to lie as town.

[gkrieg13]

My case against Faust:

Reason number one. Unexplained vote.

Vote: ADK

Even after repeated pressure from me and ADK, Faust has refused to provide justification for this vote. I've repeatedly stated why this is super anti town, I don't want to sound like a broken record. If anyone needs to know why this is scummy, ask. Or re-read me.

Reason number two. General unhelpful-ness. Here are some of the choicest Faust quotes of this game.

Unrelated note: Well done gkrieg.

If town guesses right and lynches scum, it even increases our chance of lynching scum to 100%.

I sure hope we're in one of the scenarios that have only 1 scum!

I think he's a bit towny.

The above quote is unhelpful for providing no reasons, although making a town read is usually helpful.

Can you guys just move on already?

Faust seems to be gravitating towards one liners that don't actually say anything, and not contributing nearly enough. However, he has done the occasional helpful post. I just don't believe these outdo his lack of helpfulness. Useful quotes include:

Here"s a notable setup point worth discussing: We can still lynch whoever we want on D2 if we do it before the 72 hour deadline for the Gladiator expires.

Unrelated note: Well done gkrieg.

This reminds me: What's gkrieg's meta? With his, feel free to explain chairs joth and Galzria's metas as well, I just realized I haven't played with them yet.

Let's just say if gkrieg were the Traitor, we'd already know...

Seriously, gkrieg tends to have pretty good reads as town but for some reason people read him scummy and he gets mislynched frequently. As scum he's much easier to detect IRL. chairs is like always kind of excited when he starts playing, and then something terrible happens in his life and he can't participate. He's also very much a gut feeling kind of player. joth I feel I haven't really played with enough yet. Galzria's current meta is unfortunately that he lurks until he is replaced.

Finally, I also just get a scummy vibe from him. I try to ignore feelings most of the time, but I find in mafia they sometimes serve a purpose. Feel free to argue. Vote:Faust

I mean faust generally is helpful to town, but how is what he is doing now likely to come from scum!faust? Like, you know he is a good player right?

[SpaceAnemone]

Faust, you still haven't explained your vote.

I'm so glad you pointed that out, or else I would never have noticed.

For reals though, I think it is soon time to explain, but I don't have the time just now.

Has faust been doing this kind of thing a lot lately?  I don't remember seeing this coyness from him before.

He came across as a bit crotchety at times (as town) last game I played with him. I usually find his mafia persona more prickly than he is in person, though.

[gkrieg13]

I mean, "definitely town" is strong; faust could be scum, as could anyone. But so far he's reading pretty townie.

This is a little scummy though.

[gkrieg13]

I really don't like Ari's faust case, but I don't think it's malicious/scummy per se, just a bit of an indication that they're a newbie with little feel for people's meta, or the overall meta of f.ds mafia.

@Ari, hi! I don't think we've played before. Apologies for starting out our interaction with a criticism, but coming into a game with a blunt assertion that it's anti-town not to share everything, while obviously being unaware of the long history of this having been discussed in numerous games before, is a bit naive, and really isn't going to win over many of the vets. Faust is a seasoned player who knows what he's doing. He comes across as weirdly cantankerous sometimes, and economical with his words, but that's not alignment indicative. The only reliable tell I found for him being scum is that if you get into a situation where there's complex logical reasoning, he can sometime spin it the wrong way to cover for himself or his teammates as scum, but obviously won't use the same spin as town. It's not a very frequently-applicable tell :-(

In case it helps give you a framework for thinking about the more meta side of the game works here, consider that any given player, especially vets who've been playing such games with one another for years and years, is probably not thinking only of their win or loss in this one particular game. They've got form, there are things they've done before as scum, and things they've discussed previously with people who were their scum buddies in other games, but who might now be town while they're scum again (or vice versa!), and there are patterns of behaviour that tend to repeat. The pace of innovation in any given direction is limited by how people feel any changes in their behaviour might adversely affect their faction in this game, and also other people's perceptions of them in future games. If you're too ridiculously townie as town and can't emulate it when you're scum, your scum game suffers. If you're too unhelpful or abrasive as a player, people will more happily lynch you off even in your townier games. Players like faust are so ancient they've converged on some kind of an optimum presentation. (I (hope I can) get away with saying this, since I'm more ancient than faust is IRL, even though I'm a relative newbie in f.ds mafia terms, having only been playing mafia here for ~3 years).

PPE 6 or 7: not sure that needed an essay, but there you go :-P

Lol, this is the Spaceiest thing that has ever Spaced.  <3

[gkrieg13]

Vote: ari

Perfectly timed bus. Well-done.

Is it bad if I agree with you, but also kind of think you are scum?

[gkrieg13]

Refusing to provide the town with information is the definition of scummy! What does scum have that town doesn't? Information. The towns goal is to make up for their information deficit. In addition, after the context provided by Space I retracted my vote.

How is refusing to be helpful not scummy?

Let me turn that around for you: What does scum gain by being obviously unhelpful? Scum players want to be helpful; their helpfulness is just leading town down the wrong path. Wanton, willful unhelpfulness usually comes from town. Or Awaclus.

Second, let me disabuse you of the notion that town is a big happy family working together to solve a problem. We are a big happy family working together to solve a problem -- with a small happy family embedded in us that is working to stop the problem from being solved. If we adopt a philosophy of "everyone shares everything all the time", that helps scum, not town. Sometimes town players keep things to themselves for some period of town. It's actually the only way we can counteract the information asymmetry. Automatically giving all the information we have to town (and therefore also to scum) just furthers it.

Ok. I refuse to help anyone find scum ever again. I'm town now, right? Total unhelpful-ness, of the finest variety. And here, why don't I throw out a random vote for no reason? Vote: Jothenoah

What information (besides PR's, which is why I wanted to wait for a claim before lynching the people that didn't give reasons) does the town have that scum doesn't?

a.k.a OMGUS

[gkrieg13]

However I do think mix is scum.

Nah, I'm just incredibly lazy and I'm pushing a (well, I guess it is) anti-town plan. Which IS scummy, but...would scum do that? No idea.

A lot of people are being towny right now...I think I might stick to the basics.

Vote: gkrieg, did he dissapear? Sure seemed like it.

I did disappear! But also I just am not available on weekends, and have a lot of stuff coming up this week and a lot of stuff last week (paper deadline).

[gkrieg13]

So something just occurred to me.

If we have a scum promoter, they want to set up a town v. town scenario. So they want to target a town player who they think will most likely target another town player. In other words, knowing everybody's reads is really, really helpful to them. We might want to keep a little more mum about who we think is town.

They don't understand how quickly my reads can change though...

[gkrieg13]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

Eh, I would jump on this if it weren't Joseph.

[gkrieg13]

So does mcmc always have bad reads? It feels uncharacteristic, but the case itself isn't the worst so I don't know if he's scum or not.

On the other hand, gkrieg hasn't done much other than vote for me, and faust just moved his vote to Joseph for something that makes perfect sense in context...faust, do you have any other reason to vote there? Otherwise I think these are my scumreads...problem is these are all highly competent players that I don't want to lynch D1...

Haven't actually finished sorting reads (I'm ISOing everyone and that actually takes a while), but I wanted to ask these questions before I continue:

Third: I don’t believe the initial vote on Chairs for his lack of posting comes from scum all that often, but I’m more inclined to see the first person to jump at that as a reasonable vote as scummy.

What's your thought on Joseph here?

And

MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation.

What does this even mean? Can you point me to something that demonstrates it?

I haven't seen the answers and they seemed important (yes, they're all implicit defenses but I see no harm in the first question and the second one would help me understand mcmc's case better).


Original thought: Space, why are you voting Joseph?

This is still a whole lotta "I don't really have any reads, so I'm voting for someone voting for me, because they aren't really around".

[gkrieg13]

Mcmc: What’s your favorite pet scumtell or town tell?

I;m confused, my favorite pet is a chicken.

My scum tell's are all pretty player based (hence my ari read apprehension) but I would say acting as though you have though your post through more then town would is my favorite scum tell.

My favorite town tell is playing with so much passion that your emotion comes through. it has been faked only a few times back in the day by galz himself and ash/yuma

Ash and yuma are the kings of this.

[gkrieg13]

Vote: gkrieg, faust is much more townier than I thought now that I ISOd him. Reads are still in a flux state but I don't want my vote on faust anymore.

Why are Sundays always this slow?

Faust is town, but dunno how that makes gkrieg scummy?

gkrieg's just not towny, which is more than I can say about almost everyone here...I also don't want to vote for mcmc, feels OMGUSy, and maybe he does play like this (although I didn't see it in RMM52).

To me, faust and ari seem town
Feeling less towny on MiX
And like most games I play, space seems somewhat scummy to me, but maybe just confirmation bias

I agree with your thought on Space, but I think I need to ask them a question.

@Space, what do you think of the promoter claim?

How am I not townie!  Also me not being townie and not claiming traitor usually means I'm town.

[SpaceAnemone]

If everyone says they're not the promoter, we can conclude the promoter is scum.

Or that the promoter decided they would rather not come forward.

Sorry I was going on the assumption that a town player wouldn't outright lie.

There are times when it is good to lie as town.

I agree, but I'd also caution that there aren't that many times when it's good to lie outright. I've certainly found it selfish of other townies to lie about events so that most of town has incorrect information to reason with, and only the lying townie has any chance of piecing things together. I can't recall game numbers off the top of my head, unfortunately.

I guess it's good for many n-shot PRs not to reveal whether they've used up their shots when it comes to the endgame (at least for roles like commuters and vigs, rather than info-gathering PRs).

Lies of omission are more commonly a good idea, since keeping information from scum is beneficial. Like, in RMM52, having a role unnecessarily revealed by a townie late in the game was part of what meant town couldn't win, because scum knew exactly who they could safely kill, so town lost the slim chance of winning because scum might otherwise have targeted a commuter.

PPE many lots. <3 to gkrieg for the spaciest space thing :-)

[gkrieg13]

Current town reads are:
faust, Space, Joseph, chairs, EFHW (because I don't scumread her, and for some reason know 100% when she is scum).

Everyone else I either don't have a read on, or have a scumread on...

Strongest scum reads are MiX, Ari, ADK (for faust's case)

[gkrieg13]

Faust, you still haven't explained your vote.

I'm so glad you pointed that out, or else I would never have noticed.

For reals though, I think it is soon time to explain, but I don't have the time just now.

Has faust been doing this kind of thing a lot lately?  I don't remember seeing this coyness from him before.

He came across as a bit crotchety at times (as town) last game I played with him. I usually find his mafia persona more prickly than he is in person, though.

Ok, that answers it.

[jotheonah]

Current town reads are:
faust, Space, Joseph, chairs, EFHW (because I don't scumread her, and for some reason know 100% when she is scum).

Everyone else I either don't have a read on, or have a scumread on...

Strongest scum reads are MiX, Ari, ADK (for faust's case)

I like these reads. I endorse them.

[MiX]

Lies of omission are more commonly a good idea, since keeping information from scum is beneficial. Like, in RMM52, having a role unnecessarily revealed by a townie late in the game was part of what meant town couldn't win, because scum knew exactly who they could safely kill, so town lost the slim chance of winning because scum might otherwise have targeted a commuter.

Creating a wall post as I speak, but I just have to say that the claim wasn't necessarily a death sentence for town (although it helped) because commuter still existed. Okay, back to wall posting.

Current town reads are:
faust, Space, Joseph, chairs, EFHW (because I don't scumread her, and for some reason know 100% when she is scum).

Everyone else I either don't have a read on, or have a scumread on...

Strongest scum reads are MiX, Ari, ADK (for faust's case)

I like these reads. I endorse them.

The fact that I'm townreading gkrieg and scumreading you will lead to my death today. I might have to change one of them...

[MiX]

Okay, I do this every game, so I suppose I need to keep up the tradition: helps me as every alignment so it can't go wrong. I know that we don't want to give too much information to scum, so I'll keep it succint.

arishipshape: I'm not lynching him.

DatSwan: No one is lynching him.

chairs: Consistent. That's all I can say about him. No one is lynching him.

joth: Jokes a lot, focused a bunch of me, ari and ADK. Does almost nothing other than interact with us three. Scum.

MiX: Town. Seriously discourage this lynch, better people to focus.

ADK: Talks a lot about promoter given he's the one that brought it up. faust's case makes sense but I don't think traitor would do that: I would suspect scum would give traitor a way to claim, this way there would be communication (for all scum know ADK's not traitor, maybe someone else signaled better, who knows, I've never played with traitor). My previous townread on him is failing, not sure where he's positioned in my reads anymore. Would lynch.

gkrieg: No one is lynching him.

mcmc: I have no idea. "Not town!mcmc" is probably how I would describe him. His logic seems to make sense sometimes so not exactly my favourite here. Would lynch.

Glooble: Town. Oops. Unvote, sorry about that. I still think voting there was justified, but I clearly needed to re-reread Glooble to get a better read.

Galzria: Not knowing his meta is hurting me, but I read a scum game where he basically bussed early. Didn't happen here, plus he seems more confident on his vote, so he seems town. I'll need to see more, however. I'm not lynching him.

faust: No one is lynching him.

Joseph: Different. I need to reread the game I played with him to see just how different. I'm not lynching him.

Space: Town, as I've said.

EFHW: No one is lynching her.


Overall, I think mcmc, ADK or joth are the scummiest bunch from the people I actually want to lynch today. Of those;

Vote: joth, almost no content, a lot of it is focused on players he doesn't know, too many jokes for my taste, all in all does not seem to be helping town. Maybe I just can't read him, but he still looks like the scummiest of them all. I'll try to make a case on him just to rectify if he's this scummy or not.

PPE all the way from gkrieg's infinity posts, including mine.

[jotheonah]

I can't really tell if there's anything in that post I need to respond to, but I will say if I were the gladiator and it were day 2, I would be happy to make it you and me, MiX.

[Glooble]

Galzria: Not knowing his meta is hurting me, but I read a scum game where he basically bussed early. Didn't happen here, plus he seems more confident on his vote, so he seems town. I'll need to see more, however. I'm not lynching him.

How can you know whether or not someone if bussing if you don't know who their partners are?

[MiX]

Galzria: Not knowing his meta is hurting me, but I read a scum game where he basically bussed early. Didn't happen here, plus he seems more confident on his vote, so he seems town. I'll need to see more, however. I'm not lynching him.

How can you know whether or not someone if bussing if you don't know who their partners are?

Well he voted for me...

[MiX]

I can't really tell if there's anything in that post I need to respond to, but I will say if I were the gladiator and it were day 2, I would be happy to make it you and me, MiX.

Am I that scummy? Are you Jester? Can you tell me how pro-town you are? Because pointing out that me ari and ADK are scummy won't fly by me, and that seems to be everything you've done. Could be wrong, feel free to prove it.

[jotheonah]

I can't really tell if there's anything in that post I need to respond to, but I will say if I were the gladiator and it were day 2, I would be happy to make it you and me, MiX.

Am I that scummy? Are you Jester? Can you tell me how pro-town you are? Because pointing out that me ari and ADK are scummy won't fly by me, and that seems to be everything you've done. Could be wrong, feel free to prove it.

The only pro-town thing I've done is scumhunting? I see your point, I must be scum.

Just because my cases aren't walls of text doesn't mean they aren't there, valid, and sufficiently well-articulated.

[MiX]

I can't really tell if there's anything in that post I need to respond to, but I will say if I were the gladiator and it were day 2, I would be happy to make it you and me, MiX.

Am I that scummy? Are you Jester? Can you tell me how pro-town you are? Because pointing out that me ari and ADK are scummy won't fly by me, and that seems to be everything you've done. Could be wrong, feel free to prove it.

The only pro-town thing I've done is scumhunting? I see your point, I must be scum.

Just because my cases aren't walls of text doesn't mean they aren't there, valid, and sufficiently well-articulated.

Mostly that you have barely mentioned...anyone else. That and I find ari towny (and previously found ADK towny as well, but that's mostly for agreeing with his position regarding promoter claim). Did your scumreads ever change?

[jotheonah]

I can't really tell if there's anything in that post I need to respond to, but I will say if I were the gladiator and it were day 2, I would be happy to make it you and me, MiX.

Am I that scummy? Are you Jester? Can you tell me how pro-town you are? Because pointing out that me ari and ADK are scummy won't fly by me, and that seems to be everything you've done. Could be wrong, feel free to prove it.

The only pro-town thing I've done is scumhunting? I see your point, I must be scum.

Just because my cases aren't walls of text doesn't mean they aren't there, valid, and sufficiently well-articulated.

Mostly that you have barely mentioned...anyone else. That and I find ari towny (and previously found ADK towny as well, but that's mostly for agreeing with his position regarding promoter claim). Did your scumreads ever change?

Well, I was finding you towny at one point and now notsomuch. And I've wavered a bit on faust. But for the most parts my scumreads have not given me any reason to move them into the town category and vice versa.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm way behind, weekends are bad for me, I will try to catch up and maybe do a reread tonight

[Joseph2302]

I can't really tell if there's anything in that post I need to respond to, but I will say if I were the gladiator and it were day 2, I would be happy to make it you and me, MiX.

This seems scummy, like you're basically asking to be setup together.... if you're town and there's a scum promoter, then they'll see this

Best to hide reads so as to not help the possible scum promoter

[Joseph2302]

Vote: joth

[jotheonah]

I can't really tell if there's anything in that post I need to respond to, but I will say if I were the gladiator and it were day 2, I would be happy to make it you and me, MiX.

This seems scummy, like you're basically asking to be setup together.... if you're town and there's a scum promoter, then they'll see this

Best to hide reads so as to not help the possible scum promoter

This is only a problem if MiX is town and neither of us is lynched today.

[MiX]

I can't really tell if there's anything in that post I need to respond to, but I will say if I were the gladiator and it were day 2, I would be happy to make it you and me, MiX.

This seems scummy, like you're basically asking to be setup together.... if you're town and there's a scum promoter, then they'll see this

Best to hide reads so as to not help the possible scum promoter

This is only a problem if MiX is town and neither of us is lynched today.

Why are you setting this possibility aside? You could be wrong and your wagon might not go anywhere, so why do you think this is rare?

[Joseph2302]

I can't really tell if there's anything in that post I need to respond to, but I will say if I were the gladiator and it were day 2, I would be happy to make it you and me, MiX.

This seems scummy, like you're basically asking to be setup together.... if you're town and there's a scum promoter, then they'll see this

Best to hide reads so as to not help the possible scum promoter

This is only a problem if MiX is town and neither of us is lynched today.

But it's a problem that didn't need to be caused.
And it's a problem only if you're both town, I agree

[jotheonah]

I can't really tell if there's anything in that post I need to respond to, but I will say if I were the gladiator and it were day 2, I would be happy to make it you and me, MiX.

This seems scummy, like you're basically asking to be setup together.... if you're town and there's a scum promoter, then they'll see this

Best to hide reads so as to not help the possible scum promoter

This is only a problem if MiX is town and neither of us is lynched today.

Why are you setting this possibility aside? You could be wrong and your wagon might not go anywhere, so why do you think this is rare?

The worst scum can do if they have a promoter is target one of us. Then it’s up to us to decide if we want to call out each other. The very fact that we’ve had this conversation makes me less likely to target MiX in that scenario. So there’s a lot of layers of WIFOM. I honestly don’t think it’s a big deal.

[Swowl]

Okay, I do this every game, so I suppose I need to keep up the tradition: helps me as every alignment so it can't go wrong. I know that we don't want to give too much information to scum, so I'll keep it succint.

arishipshape: I'm not lynching him.

DatSwan: No one is lynching him.

chairs: Consistent. That's all I can say about him. No one is lynching him.

joth: Jokes a lot, focused a bunch of me, ari and ADK. Does almost nothing other than interact with us three. Scum.

MiX: Town. Seriously discourage this lynch, better people to focus.

ADK: Talks a lot about promoter given he's the one that brought it up. faust's case makes sense but I don't think traitor would do that: I would suspect scum would give traitor a way to claim, this way there would be communication (for all scum know ADK's not traitor, maybe someone else signaled better, who knows, I've never played with traitor). My previous townread on him is failing, not sure where he's positioned in my reads anymore. Would lynch.

gkrieg: No one is lynching him.

mcmc: I have no idea. "Not town!mcmc" is probably how I would describe him. His logic seems to make sense sometimes so not exactly my favourite here. Would lynch.

Glooble: Town. Oops. Unvote, sorry about that. I still think voting there was justified, but I clearly needed to re-reread Glooble to get a better read.

Galzria: Not knowing his meta is hurting me, but I read a scum game where he basically bussed early. Didn't happen here, plus he seems more confident on his vote, so he seems town. I'll need to see more, however. I'm not lynching him.

faust: No one is lynching him.

Joseph: Different. I need to reread the game I played with him to see just how different. I'm not lynching him.

Space: Town, as I've said.

EFHW: No one is lynching her.


Overall, I think mcmc, ADK or joth are the scummiest bunch from the people I actually want to lynch today. Of those;

Vote: joth, almost no content, a lot of it is focused on players he doesn't know, too many jokes for my taste, all in all does not seem to be helping town. Maybe I just can't read him, but he still looks like the scummiest of them all. I'll try to make a case on him just to rectify if he's this scummy or not.

PPE all the way from gkrieg's infinity posts, including mine.

If you did not open this with "I do this regardless of alignment" I would say this is the skummiest thing you have posted all game.
To the players still on MiX, I would like to point out it would be unlikely for a skum player as the leading wagon to write up this list that specifically isolates such a small amount of players.

For that and other sorted reasons I really do no want to lynch MiX today. That being said I was also their number 1 defense in the last game I played with them and MiX played me like a pooch as SK - so take my opinion as you will I guess.

[Swowl]

I can't really tell if there's anything in that post I need to respond to, but I will say if I were the gladiator and it were day 2, I would be happy to make it you and me, MiX.

This seems scummy, like you're basically asking to be setup together.... if you're town and there's a scum promoter, then they'll see this

Best to hide reads so as to not help the possible scum promoter

This is only a problem if MiX is town and neither of us is lynched today.

Why are you setting this possibility aside? You could be wrong and your wagon might not go anywhere, so why do you think this is rare?

The worst scum can do if they have a promoter is target one of us. Then it’s up to us to decide if we want to call out each other. The very fact that we’ve had this conversation makes me less likely to target MiX in that scenario. So there’s a lot of layers of WIFOM. I honestly don’t think it’s a big deal.

skum would never target mix in this scenario. Its day 1, they have been lead wagon all day. Same reason they wouldn't NK MiX but cut in half.

[Swowl]

I take back the previous upon thought. If MiX is skum, there could be a scenario where they would target them. So you are correct, the conversation has probably changed the odds.

[Swowl]

Galzria: Not knowing his meta is hurting me, but I read a scum game where he basically bussed early. Didn't happen here, plus he seems more confident on his vote, so he seems town. I'll need to see more, however. I'm not lynching him.

How can you know whether or not someone if bussing if you don't know who their partners are?

I believe MiX is saying "since I know I am Town, Galz can't be bussing"... as Galz only vote to my knowledge was on MiX.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Ok some thoughts:

faust's case on me is pretty threadbare, I was discussing the setup in the game where there could be a traitor so I mentioned the traitor a few times. I don't think faust is scummy for pushing that case, it's day one, cases are going to be pretty threadbare. I do find chairs scummy for jumping on it. I also find gkrieg scummy for sheeping it, especially since he does it at the end of his string of posts where he's listing his reads and it's tacked on at the end, it reads to me like he was writing a reads list and was like "hmm, better include another scum read there"

mcmc is probably my strongest townread this game

I had a lingering scumread on joth but his more recent posts on reading much townier to me. I don't think I want to lynch joth today.

Joseph is another player I'm finding towny, which is surprising to me because from what I remember he's the sort of player that almost always comes off as scummy

MiX is coming off scummier and scummier. A lot of his posting seems very self-aware, there's a post back there where he outrights says he doesn't want to vote for mcmc because it "seems OMGUS-y". My original vote on MiX was based on some partner-y interaction bullshit that looking back on I realize didn't make sense but I'm happy with my vote there now.

[arishipshape]

MiX feels pretty much the same as he did in the only other game I played: he was town. However, I was scum that game, so coulda been biased because I totally knew what he was. But still. I'm not getting on the MiX wagon.

[gkrieg13]

Ok some thoughts:

faust's case on me is pretty threadbare, I was discussing the setup in the game where there could be a traitor so I mentioned the traitor a few times. I don't think faust is scummy for pushing that case, it's day one, cases are going to be pretty threadbare. I do find chairs scummy for jumping on it. I also find gkrieg scummy for sheeping it, especially since he does it at the end of his string of posts where he's listing his reads and it's tacked on at the end, it reads to me like he was writing a reads list and was like "hmm, better include another scum read there"

mcmc is probably my strongest townread this game

I had a lingering scumread on joth but his more recent posts on reading much townier to me. I don't think I want to lynch joth today.

Joseph is another player I'm finding towny, which is surprising to me because from what I remember he's the sort of player that almost always comes off as scummy

MiX is coming off scummier and scummier. A lot of his posting seems very self-aware, there's a post back there where he outrights says he doesn't want to vote for mcmc because it "seems OMGUS-y". My original vote on MiX was based on some partner-y interaction bullshit that looking back on I realize didn't make sense but I'm happy with my vote there now.

I mean I went in chronological order and commented as things came up.

[MiX]

MiX is coming off scummier and scummier. A lot of his posting seems very self-aware, there's a post back there where he outrights says he doesn't want to vote for mcmc because it "seems OMGUS-y". My original vote on MiX was based on some partner-y interaction bullshit that looking back on I realize didn't make sense but I'm happy with my vote there now.

What do you mean by self-aware here? Yes, I know how my posts sound to everyone else, since you tell me your opinions on them, so I can infer what future posts will look like. What was your original reason to vote me?

MiX feels pretty much the same as he did in the only other game I played: he was town. However, I was scum that game, so coulda been biased because I totally knew what he was. But still. I'm not getting on the MiX wagon.

Your last post was also a defense of me; I get it, it won a game for you, but instead of defending me you should find a scumread and push it. You haven't done much with your vote, seems like you ran out of things to do.

[chairs]

vote: ari

Blatant buddying is blatant. Combine that with “but then if my read is wrong well oops” is ridiculous

[faust]

Vote: ADK

[MiX]

Vote: ADK

This is probably the best case that has backing, really.

Vote: ADK. Or you can kill me, whatever.

[faust]

Oh yeah, deadline is only a day away now, huh?

[faust]

Can we get a vote count?

[Joseph2302]

Vote: ADK

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 1.4

*Soft music plays*

*...and then comes to an awkward stop*

Please be advised: Uncleeurope will be accepting all Vote:NoSpace votes.

Okay, I'm done. Carry on.

*Music returns, except it's a different song... Which it isn't as good.*

MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah
A Drowned Kernel (4): DatSwan, faust, MiX, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
Galzria (1): EFHW
arishipshape (1): chairs
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot


Not voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria


With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
Day 1 ends Wednesday, 1st of May, at 5:30 ft.

[faust]

Mf. This wagon look ugly.

Vote: Joseph

[MiX]

Mf. This wagon look ugly.

Vote: Joseph

I'll probably sheep you to hell and back, but I'm not sure why Joseph is getting all the scum and town points, he seems to make an impact, which is not what I expected. I planned on rereading them at night but I might have to do that today...hopefully I'll come back with info.

[Glooble]

I would love to avoid an 11th hour lynch.

[MiX]

I would love to avoid an 11th hour lynch.

How much time do we have?

[Joseph2302]

I would love to avoid an 11th hour lynch.

Usually it's an 11 and a half hour lynch

PPE: 1

[Glooble]

I would love to avoid an 11th hour lynch.

How much time do we have?

About 32 1/2 hours.

[faust]

I would love to avoid an 11th hour lynch.

How much time do we have?

About 32 1/2 hours.

Is this correct? The vote count says end is 5:30 forum time, but does not specify am or pm.

If, as I assume, LaLight goes by European standard, then it's indeed 5:30 am, so less than 24 hours.

[faust]

I would love to avoid an 11th hour lynch.

The MiX wagon clearly has stalled out, can I interest you in voting for Joseph?

[LaLight]

I would love to avoid an 11th hour lynch.

How much time do we have?

About 32 1/2 hours.

Is this correct? The vote count says end is 5:30 forum time, but does not specify am or pm.

If, as I assume, LaLight goes by European standard, then it's indeed 5:30 am, so less than 24 hours.

5.30 am. 20 hours left.

[faust]

On the plus side, we have plurality lynch rules.

[A Drowned Kernel]

MiX is coming off scummier and scummier. A lot of his posting seems very self-aware, there's a post back there where he outrights says he doesn't want to vote for mcmc because it "seems OMGUS-y". My original vote on MiX was based on some partner-y interaction bullshit that looking back on I realize didn't make sense but I'm happy with my vote there now.

What do you mean by self-aware here? Yes, I know how my posts sound to everyone else, since you tell me your opinions on them, so I can infer what future posts will look like. What was your original reason to vote me?

My original vote was based on interactions with you and joth, that I thought looked partnery, which looking back on it, they weren't. And now looking back at it now, I think I was reading too much into a couple of comments you made. So, meh.

Unvote

[jotheonah]

I think dissolving the MiX wagon is a mistake, for the record, but I'm also fine with vote: ari and I like it a lot better than ADK.

[MiX]

I think dissolving the MiX wagon is a mistake, for the record, but I'm also fine with vote: ari and I like it a lot better than ADK.

What makes you think an ari lynch is better than an ADK lynch? Also, ewwww on ari votes, unless he completely revolutionizes his scum meta we'll get him by D3, don't worry.

[Glooble]

Oh shit. I just assumed it was pm for some reason. I still think MiX is the scummiest so I'mma stay here for now but I guess if it falls apart completely in the next few hours I'll move my vote someplace else.

[faust]

I think dissolving the MiX wagon is a mistake, for the record, but I'm also fine with vote: ari and I like it a lot better than ADK.

What about Joseph?

[jotheonah]

I think dissolving the MiX wagon is a mistake, for the record, but I'm also fine with vote: ari and I like it a lot better than ADK.

What about Joseph?

I could live with it. The two people voting there now are town reads, and he is not. But I like ari better.

[faust]

MiX is coming off scummier and scummier. A lot of his posting seems very self-aware, there's a post back there where he outrights says he doesn't want to vote for mcmc because it "seems OMGUS-y". My original vote on MiX was based on some partner-y interaction bullshit that looking back on I realize didn't make sense but I'm happy with my vote there now.

What do you mean by self-aware here? Yes, I know how my posts sound to everyone else, since you tell me your opinions on them, so I can infer what future posts will look like. What was your original reason to vote me?

My original vote was based on interactions with you and joth, that I thought looked partnery, which looking back on it, they weren't. And now looking back at it now, I think I was reading too much into a couple of comments you made. So, meh.

Unvote

Having no vote around this close to deadline isn't really helping.

[jotheonah]

I think dissolving the MiX wagon is a mistake, for the record, but I'm also fine with vote: ari and I like it a lot better than ADK.

What makes you think an ari lynch is better than an ADK lynch? Also, ewwww on ari votes, unless he completely revolutionizes his scum meta we'll get him by D3, don't worry.

Because I think ari is more likely to be scum than ADK? I don't understand the question.

[A Drowned Kernel]

MiX is coming off scummier and scummier. A lot of his posting seems very self-aware, there's a post back there where he outrights says he doesn't want to vote for mcmc because it "seems OMGUS-y". My original vote on MiX was based on some partner-y interaction bullshit that looking back on I realize didn't make sense but I'm happy with my vote there now.

What do you mean by self-aware here? Yes, I know how my posts sound to everyone else, since you tell me your opinions on them, so I can infer what future posts will look like. What was your original reason to vote me?

My original vote was based on interactions with you and joth, that I thought looked partnery, which looking back on it, they weren't. And now looking back at it now, I think I was reading too much into a couple of comments you made. So, meh.

Unvote

Having no vote around this close to deadline isn't really helping.

I will be around later when I decide for sure where I want it to go.

[A Drowned Kernel]

For the record, I don't think that Joseph is a great lunch

[MiX]

For the record, I don't think that Joseph is a great lunch

I fear that you or me die this day: if you had to, who would you vote? Quoting this because Joseph seems to be a viable lynch as well.

[MiX]

I think dissolving the MiX wagon is a mistake, for the record, but I'm also fine with vote: ari and I like it a lot better than ADK.

What makes you think an ari lynch is better than an ADK lynch? Also, ewwww on ari votes, unless he completely revolutionizes his scum meta we'll get him by D3, don't worry.

Because I think ari is more likely to be scum than ADK? I don't understand the question.

Well why is this the case? I've heard your ari case but why is ADK less scummy?

Also, I'll be here untill 10 hours to deadline. I might wake up right before deadline but I doubt it.

[arishipshape]

MiX feels pretty much the same as he did in the only other game I played: he was town. However, I was scum that game, so coulda been biased because I totally knew what he was. But still. I'm not getting on the MiX wagon.

Your last post was also a defense of me; I get it, it won a game for you, but instead of defending me you should find a scumread and push it. You haven't done much with your vote, seems like you ran out of things to do.

My scumread is Faust. But I tried gunning against him, and look how that worked out. Everybody saying "Your case sucks" and with no reasons why (except SpaceAnemone, who addressed my dislike of meta rather than the case itself). So I did run out of things to do. I can't attack my scumread, I can't defend my townread. I'm gonna iso ADK and see whether I like lynching him. And I'll be here till about 5 hours to deadline, if it's 5:30 AM.

[A Drowned Kernel]

For the record, I don't think that Joseph is a great lunch

I fear that you or me die this day: if you had to, who would you vote? Quoting this because Joseph seems to be a viable lynch as well.

Are you asking who I would vote between you and me? You, obviously, but I don't think we should get in the mindset of lynching in a subset of players. Anything's possible with a plurality lynch.

[MiX]

MiX feels pretty much the same as he did in the only other game I played: he was town. However, I was scum that game, so coulda been biased because I totally knew what he was. But still. I'm not getting on the MiX wagon.

Your last post was also a defense of me; I get it, it won a game for you, but instead of defending me you should find a scumread and push it. You haven't done much with your vote, seems like you ran out of things to do.

My scumread is Faust. But I tried gunning against him, and look how that worked out. Everybody saying "Your case sucks" and with no reasons why (except SpaceAnemone, who addressed my dislike of meta rather than the case itself). So I did run out of things to do. I can't attack my scumread, I can't defend my townread. I'm gonna iso ADK and see whether I like lynching him. And I'll be here till about 5 hours to deadline, if it's 5:30 AM.

Get. More. Scum. Reads. Please? You did last time (in a very fake way, really) so I know you can do the same.

For the record, I don't think that Joseph is a great lunch

I fear that you or me die this day: if you had to, who would you vote? Quoting this because Joseph seems to be a viable lynch as well.

Are you asking who I would vote between you and me? You, obviously, but I don't think we should get in the mindset of lynching in a subset of players. Anything's possible with a plurality lynch.

No, I'm asking, if you had to vote someone right now, who would that be? I understand that you're not ready, but at this point I want more from you.

[jotheonah]

I think dissolving the MiX wagon is a mistake, for the record, but I'm also fine with vote: ari and I like it a lot better than ADK.

What makes you think an ari lynch is better than an ADK lynch? Also, ewwww on ari votes, unless he completely revolutionizes his scum meta we'll get him by D3, don't worry.

Because I think ari is more likely to be scum than ADK? I don't understand the question.

Well why is this the case? I've heard your ari case but why is ADK less scummy?

*sigh*

I have concrete reasons to believe ari is scum (did a thing which is a personal scum tell, case on faust feels fake, the whole weird buddying/defending thing you two have going on). I have only abstract reasons to believe ADK might be (feels off, voting patterns are trending toward opportunistic). Honestly, my read on ADK is more null than scum.

[Glooble]

Get. More. Scum. Reads. Please? You did last time (in a very fake way, really) so I know you can do the same.

Wait what? Making up fake scum reads as scum and coming up with actual scum reads as town are completely different skill sets. How does his ability to do one tell you anything about his ability to do the other?

[arishipshape]

Iso'd ADK, he kept me accountable on many of my worse points, and forced me to answer a question I missed. He also seems generally townie IMHO. Here's another wagon I'm not getting on, without a good case or something. Faust, order these from most to least scummy: Me, MiX, ADK, Joseph. And before anyone says "But Ari, you said Faust was your scumread!" I KNOW. Faust still is.

MiX feels pretty much the same as he did in the only other game I played: he was town. However, I was scum that game, so coulda been biased because I totally knew what he was. But still. I'm not getting on the MiX wagon.

Your last post was also a defense of me; I get it, it won a game for you, but instead of defending me you should find a scumread and push it. You haven't done much with your vote, seems like you ran out of things to do.

My scumread is Faust. But I tried gunning against him, and look how that worked out. Everybody saying "Your case sucks" and with no reasons why (except SpaceAnemone, who addressed my dislike of meta rather than the case itself). So I did run out of things to do. I can't attack my scumread, I can't defend my townread. I'm gonna iso ADK and see whether I like lynching him. And I'll be here till about 5 hours to deadline, if it's 5:30 AM.

Get. More. Scum. Reads. Please? You did last time (in a very fake way, really) so I know you can do the same.

Jothenoah has arbitrarily hated me all game. Did an iso, not liking it to much. I wont get more specific, because obviously that would help scum.

[MiX]

Get. More. Scum. Reads. Please? You did last time (in a very fake way, really) so I know you can do the same.

Wait what? Making up fake scum reads as scum and coming up with actual scum reads as town are completely different skill sets. How does his ability to do one tell you anything about his ability to do the other?

It's a pretty bad joke, but I'm still proud of it. The point was that ari's been through been asked to have more scumreads by me.


Who's a player that hasn't been talked about at all today? I want to lynch them.

[jotheonah]

Iso'd ADK, he kept me accountable on many of my worse points, and forced me to answer a question I missed. He also seems generally townie IMHO. Here's another wagon I'm not getting on, without a good case or something. Faust, order these from most to least scummy: Me, MiX, ADK, Joseph. And before anyone says "But Ari, you said Faust was your scumread!" I KNOW. Faust still is.

MiX feels pretty much the same as he did in the only other game I played: he was town. However, I was scum that game, so coulda been biased because I totally knew what he was. But still. I'm not getting on the MiX wagon.

Your last post was also a defense of me; I get it, it won a game for you, but instead of defending me you should find a scumread and push it. You haven't done much with your vote, seems like you ran out of things to do.

My scumread is Faust. But I tried gunning against him, and look how that worked out. Everybody saying "Your case sucks" and with no reasons why (except SpaceAnemone, who addressed my dislike of meta rather than the case itself). So I did run out of things to do. I can't attack my scumread, I can't defend my townread. I'm gonna iso ADK and see whether I like lynching him. And I'll be here till about 5 hours to deadline, if it's 5:30 AM.

Get. More. Scum. Reads. Please? You did last time (in a very fake way, really) so I know you can do the same.

Jothenoah has arbitrarily hated me all game. Did an iso, not liking it to much. I wont get more specific, because obviously that would help scum.

1. It's not arbitrary
2. I don't hate you

[jotheonah]

Get. More. Scum. Reads. Please? You did last time (in a very fake way, really) so I know you can do the same.

Wait what? Making up fake scum reads as scum and coming up with actual scum reads as town are completely different skill sets. How does his ability to do one tell you anything about his ability to do the other?

It's a pretty bad joke, but I'm still proud of it. The point was that ari's been through been asked to have more scumreads by me.


Who's a player that hasn't been talked about at all today? I want to lynch them.

chairs?

[jotheonah]

1. It's not arbitrary
2. I don't hate you

I want to emphasize #2 here because I know I can be a little harsh sometimes in-game, but at the end of the day it is just a game and as a human being I like you just fine and think you're very nice.

[arishipshape]

1. It's not arbitrary
2. I don't hate you

I want to emphasize #2 here because I know I can be a little harsh sometimes in-game, but at the end of the day it is just a game and as a human being I like you just fine and think you're very nice.

Apologies. "Hate" was an unnecessarily strong word, and it didn't apply. I think you're fine and nice as well. What I meant to say was you've been arbitrarily considering me to be scum all game. Vote: Chairs Why? I know why: I'm just not gonna say it. ...Fine, it's because we haven't talked about him all game and I want to spark discussion.

[MiX]

1. It's not arbitrary
2. I don't hate you

I want to emphasize #2 here because I know I can be a little harsh sometimes in-game, but at the end of the day it is just a game and as a human being I like you just fine and think you're very nice.

Apologies. "Hate" was an unnecessarily strong word, and it didn't apply. I think you're fine and nice as well. What I meant to say was you've been arbitrarily considering me to be scum all game. Vote: Chairs Why? I know why: I'm just not gonna say it. ...Fine, it's because we haven't talked about him all game and I want to spark discussion.

There won't be a discussion this close to deadline. My thought was: why is everyone on the viable lynch pool very towny and/or joth? And I feel like the answer is there's scum in whoever we haven't even touched yet.

[arishipshape]

1. It's not arbitrary
2. I don't hate you

I want to emphasize #2 here because I know I can be a little harsh sometimes in-game, but at the end of the day it is just a game and as a human being I like you just fine and think you're very nice.

Apologies. "Hate" was an unnecessarily strong word, and it didn't apply. I think you're fine and nice as well. What I meant to say was you've been arbitrarily considering me to be scum all game. Vote: Chairs Why? I know why: I'm just not gonna say it. ...Fine, it's because we haven't talked about him all game and I want to spark discussion.

There won't be a discussion this close to deadline. My thought was: why is everyone on the viable lynch pool very towny and/or joth? And I feel like the answer is there's scum in whoever we haven't even touched yet.

We haven't touched Faust. Everybody just takes his towniness as guaranteed. And I disagree regarding discussion: we've got a day, I think we can at least make something we can look back on in later days, even if we don't lynch chairs today.

[Glooble]

I don't want to lynch chairs. They've made 9 posts. None of them seemed scummy to me. Not enough interaction to really tell us anything tomorrow. MiX is a better lynch.

[Joseph2302]

I don't want to lynch chairs. They've made 9 posts. None of them seemed scummy to me. Not enough interaction to really tell us anything tomorrow. MiX is a better lynch.

Plus we always seem to end up lynching lurkers and it's no help
And we always seem to end up mislynching chairs as a lurker

[MiX]

I don't want to lynch chairs. They've made 9 posts. None of them seemed scummy to me. Not enough interaction to really tell us anything tomorrow. MiX is a better lynch.

Plus we always seem to end up lynching lurkers and it's no help
And we always seem to end up mislynching chairs as a lurker

I would rather lynch Swan or EFHW, those 3 seem to be the worst offenders on "who hasn't been talked about"?

[arishipshape]

I don't want to lynch chairs. They've made 9 posts. None of them seemed scummy to me. Not enough interaction to really tell us anything tomorrow. MiX is a better lynch.

Plus we always seem to end up lynching lurkers and it's no help
And we always seem to end up mislynching chairs as a lurker

I would rather lynch Swan or EFHW, those 3 seem to be the worst offenders on "who hasn't been talked about"?

Sarcasm mode: On
EFHW is playing?
Sarcasm mode: Off
Vote: EFHW Defend yourself.

[jotheonah]

Unofficial vote count

MiX (2): gkrieg13, Glooble
A Drowned Kernel (3): DatSwan, MiX, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
Galzria (1): EFHW
arishipshape (2): chairs, jotheonah
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1):: arishipshape

Not voting (2): Galzria, ADK

I really really don't like the direction this conversation has taken. Let's take a stand and maybe be wrong rather than do a random last-minute lynch with no case. Especially especially since this idea is coming from my top scum candidates and the leading wagons.

[MiX]

We can do the tried-and-not-tested joth lynch, if you want. Sad part is I think you're not good lynch material. Maybe you are?

[Glooble]

Unofficial vote count

MiX (2): gkrieg13, Glooble
A Drowned Kernel (3): DatSwan, MiX, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
Galzria (1): EFHW
arishipshape (2): chairs, jotheonah
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1):: arishipshape

Not voting (2): Galzria, ADK

I really really don't like the direction this conversation has taken. Let's take a stand and maybe be wrong rather than do a random last-minute lynch with no case. Especially especially since this idea is coming from my top scum candidates and the leading wagons.

Let's take a stand and lynch MiX.

[Glooble]

Like seriously, we had a good thing going, I don't know why everybody up and moved their votes.

[chairs]

apologies for not being wordy - I’m following on cell exclusively so I just chime in when I have something to say.

Big takeaways for today - promoter claim is probably dumb, mix and ari are both scummy af, I need to post more so you can read me better.

I’m still fine with where my vote is. Will continue to check in to see if we’ve coalesced further than current. Let’s get it together and lynch someone before deadline.

Poe: idk a couple, since it changes every time I try to post lol

[chairs]

I could vote: mix sure

[Joseph2302]

We can do the tried-and-not-tested joth lynch, if you want. Sad part is I think you're not good lynch material. Maybe you are?

Things like this are making you seem summer to me
Vote: mix

PPE: 3

[Joseph2302]

I should be around for the deadline, but please don't let it go that late, as all Americans will be away at that time

[jotheonah]

vote: MiX

That's L3.

[MiX]

Like seriously, we had a good thing going, I don't know why everybody up and moved their votes.

Because I'm actually town? And I feel like the wagons...aren't that good.

Big takeaways for today - promoter claim is probably dumb, mix and ari are both scummy af, I need to post more so you can read me better.

Interesting change regarding promoter. Let's leave it at that.

We can do the tried-and-not-tested joth lynch, if you want. Sad part is I think you're not good lynch material. Maybe you are?

Things like this are making you seem summer to me
Vote: mix

PPE: 3

Sorry for...not being sure about joth.

vote: MiX

That's L3.

Vote: joth

[chairs]

I should’ve clarified - claiming promoter this close to deadline is probably dumb unless you’re about to be lynched.

[MiX]

I should’ve clarified - claiming promoter this close to deadline is probably dumb unless you’re about to be lynched.

Oh! Yes, I agree.

So am I getting lynched again? You know, this will only perpetuate this cycle: one day you'll have to see D2 town!MiX. Don't you dare think you can get away with it. I don't like joth's flippy floppy regarding me, I have no idea what he thinks anymore. I might as well trust myself given no one trusts me. I'll probably hammer everyone at this point.

[chairs]

Tbh I am pretty flexible here as long as we get behind a lynch. I really want to see a majority lynch rather than plurality because it means more imo

[Glooble]

Tbh I am pretty flexible here as long as we get behind a lynch. I really want to see a majority lynch rather than plurality because it means more imo

I agree, and I think the MiX lynch tells us a lot because he's interacted with a lot of people. Note: I would not be pushing this lynch if I didn't also have a gut feeling that MiX is scum. But the consolation prize of an informative lynch if that gut feeling ends up wrong is a real thing.

I feel a little bad about the fact that MiX has been a day 1 lynch in half his games so far, but not that bad, really. Mafia is an elimination game and sometimes you get bad breaks.

[Joseph2302]

Tbh I am pretty flexible here as long as we get behind a lynch. I really want to see a majority lynch rather than plurality because it means more imo

Agreed
Chairs hasn't said much, but what they have said seems towny

[gkrieg13]

Unofficial vote count

MiX (2): gkrieg13, Glooble
A Drowned Kernel (3): DatSwan, MiX, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
Galzria (1): EFHW
arishipshape (2): chairs, jotheonah
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1):: arishipshape

Not voting (2): Galzria, ADK

I really really don't like the direction this conversation has taken. Let's take a stand and maybe be wrong rather than do a random last-minute lynch with no case. Especially especially since this idea is coming from my top scum candidates and the leading wagons.

Ugh, why are two of my town reads voting for a third of my town reads.

vote: ari

[gkrieg13]

Jk, that is why you should read the whole thread before voting.

vote: MiX

[MiX]

Well okay. Guess I'm dead then. Should I claim? Because I know I'm going to die and I have no idea if claiming even does anything...

Jk, that is why you should read the whole thread before voting.

vote: MiX

What made you change your mind?

[Glooble]

Should I claim?

I probably would.

[MiX]

Should I claim?

I probably would.

Why would you? I would like to hear arguments, not just "yeah why not?". A priori I don't think it's a good decision, so if you think it is I would prefer to know why.

[SpaceAnemone]

Just to say I'm here and reading again, but not very able to engage right now. Back in about an hour when I'm home and have food...

[mcmcsalot]

Okay Mix has had 10 different people vote for him this game.

Faust - RVS
Ari - RVS
Mcmc - Pushing for the promoter claim in a why I thought to be directing the traitor
Galz - sheep me
Gkrieg - didn’t like mix’s vote for joth
Glooble - sheep’s me but only likes the case slightly more than the ask case.
Chairs - says they do t think ari is scum and votes mix (presumably a “most viable case” vote)
ADK - unexplained (he later disagrees with me on one of my points against MiX)
Joth - for mix poorly defending ari
Chairs returns
Joseph - doesn’t like mix’s defense
Joth returns
Gkrieg returns.

[Glooble]

Should I claim?

I probably would.

Why would you? I would like to hear arguments, not just "yeah why not?". A priori I don't think it's a good decision, so if you think it is I would prefer to know why.

If you have a PR that would significantly help town, I would claim. Remember there are protective roles in play. And scum also might nk someone else to mess with our heads. If you think having another day or two alive could increase our chances of winning, claim.

I'm not going to tell you which roles would make me change my vote because I'm not all about telling scum!Mix what his fake claim should be.

[MiX]

Okay Mix has had 10 different people vote for him this game.

Faust - RVS
Ari - RVS
Mcmc - Pushing for the promoter claim in a why I thought to be directing the traitor
Galz - sheep me
Gkrieg - didn’t like mix’s vote for joth
Glooble - sheep’s me but only likes the case slightly more than the ask case.
Chairs - says they do t think ari is scum and votes mix (presumably a “most viable case” vote)
ADK - unexplained (he later disagrees with me on one of my points against MiX)
Joth - for mix poorly defending ari
Chairs returns
Joseph - doesn’t like mix’s defense
Joth returns
Gkrieg returns.

At least one scum isn't on my wagon.

Of Swan/EFHW/Space...oh this is just everyone who hasn't been active. Nevermind. I stand by what I said above but it's just more of what I said before about lynching someone who isn't getting scumread. Which is precisely why they're not a good lynch. Oh well, still something to think about for later.

[mcmcsalot]

ADK has had six different players vote for them.

Faust - for ADK name dropping the traitor a whole bunch
Joseph - sheep’s Faust (before Faust gave reasons)
MiX - (presumably voting for a different viable wagon)
Joth - unexplained
Swan - based on the amount of promoter talk ADK engaged I
Chairs - sheep’s Faust (after Faust gave reasons)
Faust return
Mix return
Joesph return

[Joseph2302]

Mix, you've already soft claimed a PR by asking the claiming question. Which puts you at risk of being NKed anyway. So IMO you should claim. Although that vote list on you is super weird, because it's almost everyone

[Joseph2302]

So either scum are bussing, or mix isn't a known scum

[Joseph2302]

ADK has had six different players vote for them.

Faust - for ADK name dropping the traitor a whole bunch
Joseph - sheep’s Faust (before Faust gave reasons)
MiX - (presumably voting for a different viable wagon)
Joth - unexplained
Swan - based on the amount of promoter talk ADK engaged I
Chairs - sheep’s Faust (after Faust gave reasons)
Faust return
Mix return
Joesph return

I had my own reasons too

[mcmcsalot]

MiX/ADK voted eachother.

Faust/Joseph/joth/chairs have all voted for both players.

(Ari)/Mcmc/Galz/Gkrieg/glooble are sole mix voters

Swan is the only sole ADK voter.

[MiX]

Mix, you've already soft claimed a PR by asking the claiming question. Which puts you at risk of being NKed anyway. So IMO you should claim. Although that vote list on you is super weird, because it's almost everyone

Awkward. I am a VT, so I'm confused where you saw that. It was my plan to softclaim a PR, which worked (apparently), but...I didn't really carry out the plan. Maybe subconsciously I played like a PR? If so good job me!

ADK has had six different players vote for them.

Faust - for ADK name dropping the traitor a whole bunch
Joseph - sheep’s Faust (before Faust gave reasons)
MiX - (presumably voting for a different viable wagon)
Joth - unexplained
Swan - based on the amount of promoter talk ADK engaged I
Chairs - sheep’s Faust (after Faust gave reasons)
Faust return
Mix return
Joesph return

I was sheeping faust. And defending myself, of course.

[mcmcsalot]

Mix, you've already soft claimed a PR by asking the claiming question. Which puts you at risk of being NKed anyway. So IMO you should claim. Although that vote list on you is super weird, because it's almost everyone

Awkward. I am a VT, so I'm confused where you saw that. It was my plan to softclaim a PR, which worked (apparently), but...I didn't really carry out the plan. Maybe subconsciously I played like a PR? If so good job me!

ADK has had six different players vote for them.

Faust - for ADK name dropping the traitor a whole bunch
Joseph - sheep’s Faust (before Faust gave reasons)
MiX - (presumably voting for a different viable wagon)
Joth - unexplained
Swan - based on the amount of promoter talk ADK engaged I
Chairs - sheep’s Faust (after Faust gave reasons)
Faust return
Mix return
Joesph return

I was sheeping faust. And defending myself, of course.

You 100% should not have claimed especially not vt. Think this only benefits scum and is very
Unlikely to change whether or not you are lynched

[MiX]

Mix, you've already soft claimed a PR by asking the claiming question. Which puts you at risk of being NKed anyway. So IMO you should claim. Although that vote list on you is super weird, because it's almost everyone

Awkward. I am a VT, so I'm confused where you saw that. It was my plan to softclaim a PR, which worked (apparently), but...I didn't really carry out the plan. Maybe subconsciously I played like a PR? If so good job me!

You 100% should not have claimed especially not vt. Think this only benefits scum and is very
Unlikely to change whether or not you are lynched

See why I asked? But I think not claiming softclaims VT whereas fakeclaiming PR is pointless town lying, in my opinion. Oh well.

[Galzria]

vote: ari. Better lynch than MiX.

[Glooble]

vote: ari. Better lynch than MiX.

Why?

[MiX]

vote: ari. Better lynch than MiX.

Why?

Because the above is true. I want to lynch him too due to his inactivity all D1, but he's on a better wagon:

Vote: EFHW

[mcmcsalot]

vote: ari. Better lynch than MiX.

I would vote adk over ari for sure.

[SpaceAnemone]

See why I asked? But I think not claiming softclaims VT whereas fakeclaiming PR is pointless town lying, in my opinion. Oh well.

How often in your other games have you asked about stuff like this? I feel that you're more likely either to flat-out demand that people tell you things, or just assert that you know things. The fact you're asking makes it feel like a play to me!

In related news, I'll be awake from about 90 minutes before deadline, though I have a meeting at work meeting 15 mins beforehand.

[Glooble]

See why I asked? But I think not claiming softclaims VT whereas fakeclaiming PR is pointless town lying, in my opinion. Oh well.

How often in your other games have you asked about stuff like this? I feel that you're more likely either to flat-out demand that people tell you things, or just assert that you know things. The fact you're asking makes it feel like a play to me!

In related news, I'll be awake from about 90 minutes before deadline, though I have a meeting at work meeting 15 mins beforehand.

Especially because he asked, asked me to clarify, didn't wait for anyone else's advice, and then completely disregarded my advice.

[mcmcsalot]

Mix, you've already soft claimed a PR by asking the claiming question. Which puts you at risk of being NKed anyway. So IMO you should claim. Although that vote list on you is super weird, because it's almost everyone

Awkward. I am a VT, so I'm confused where you saw that. It was my plan to softclaim a PR, which worked (apparently), but...I didn't really carry out the plan. Maybe subconsciously I played like a PR? If so good job me!

You 100% should not have claimed especially not vt. Think this only benefits scum and is very
Unlikely to change whether or not you are lynched

See why I asked? But I think not claiming softclaims VT whereas fakeclaiming PR is pointless town lying, in my opinion. Oh well.

I don’t think you softclaimed a pr, plenty of wifom involved. You are smart though I’m confused you didn’t understand as a vt you want to avoid being lynched without claiming at all costs and hope scum kill you. As a pr you claim with enough time to actually get a new lynch decided on.

[mcmcsalot]

See why I asked? But I think not claiming softclaims VT whereas fakeclaiming PR is pointless town lying, in my opinion. Oh well.

How often in your other games have you asked about stuff like this? I feel that you're more likely either to flat-out demand that people tell you things, or just assert that you know things. The fact you're asking makes it feel like a play to me!

In related news, I'll be awake from about 90 minutes before deadline, though I have a meeting at work meeting 15 mins beforehand.

How strongly do you feel this way?

[MiX]

See why I asked? But I think not claiming softclaims VT whereas fakeclaiming PR is pointless town lying, in my opinion. Oh well.

How often in your other games have you asked about stuff like this? I feel that you're more likely either to flat-out demand that people tell you things, or just assert that you know things. The fact you're asking makes it feel like a play to me!

Not sure if this is a complement or an insult... No, really, I mean it. Thanks regardless.

See why I asked? But I think not claiming softclaims VT whereas fakeclaiming PR is pointless town lying, in my opinion. Oh well.

How often in your other games have you asked about stuff like this? I feel that you're more likely either to flat-out demand that people tell you things, or just assert that you know things. The fact you're asking makes it feel like a play to me!

In related news, I'll be awake from about 90 minutes before deadline, though I have a meeting at work meeting 15 mins beforehand.

Especially because he asked, asked me to clarify, didn't wait for anyone else's advice, and then completely disregarded my advice.

Joseph's reaction was already more than I expected from it. Also you didn't give any VT advice, so I thought "yeah claiming totally makes me more alive". I also thought I'm good as dead so might as well get reactions to my "flip" while I'm alive.

I also finished my very very very quick "reread" of EFHW and obviously I don't see anything good enough to vote, so...you know what? I think it's just best if I die today. My vote has no power anyway, I'll hammer anything for now and I'll place my vote when I have to go. For now,

Unvote, because my read on whatever viable lynch exists is now pointless so my vote has quite literally no pressure. I'm still using my reads, however.

[chairs]

Wow I’m really happy with my mix vote now because I know when I was caught scum D1 in Harry Potter mafia I reacted the same way he just did

[MiX]

Wow I’m really happy with my mix vote now because I know when I was caught scum D1 in Harry Potter mafia I reacted the same way he just did

Did also claim VT? Did you also ask if you should claim? Did you also surrender your vote? Did you also lose all hope? Did you also townread everyone else? Did you also...oh, you can probably find the similarities yourself. Anyway I'm assuming one of these is wrong?

[SpaceAnemone]

See why I asked? But I think not claiming softclaims VT whereas fakeclaiming PR is pointless town lying, in my opinion. Oh well.

How often in your other games have you asked about stuff like this? I feel that you're more likely either to flat-out demand that people tell you things, or just assert that you know things. The fact you're asking makes it feel like a play to me!

Not sure if this is a complement or an insult... No, really, I mean it. Thanks regardless.

It wasn't strictly meant as a rhetorical question, you know. If you think it's part of a larger body of evidence of you having modulated your behaviour due to feedback last game, there's time to point that out.

OTOH, I agree that the defeatist behaviour, coupled with being worried about your personal death instead of worrying about how to make town play better is not all that townie.

[MiX]

See why I asked? But I think not claiming softclaims VT whereas fakeclaiming PR is pointless town lying, in my opinion. Oh well.

How often in your other games have you asked about stuff like this? I feel that you're more likely either to flat-out demand that people tell you things, or just assert that you know things. The fact you're asking makes it feel like a play to me!

Not sure if this is a complement or an insult... No, really, I mean it. Thanks regardless.

It wasn't strictly meant as a rhetorical question, you know. If you think it's part of a larger body of evidence of you having modulated your behaviour due to feedback last game, there's time to point that out.

OTOH, I agree that the defeatist behaviour, coupled with being worried about your personal death instead of worrying about how to make town play better is not all that townie.

Sorry, but I still don't have good scumreads. Otherwise I would've flipped this style. I have a lot of townreads however! It's not really helping me here.

I will say that my biggest scumread remains to be joth, for little as that information is worth.

As for your question, I would have to manually search my games to answer it, so the correct answer is "I don't know, to be honest". I can't talk about my play objectively so why bother? I think I tried to improve, but as you can see I've just ended up the same place as my first game, so I wouldn't call this good...

[Joseph2302]

Unvote
Not mix today after this claim

[Joseph2302]

Before people complain, I'm rereading and thinking before revoting

[Joseph2302]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but 10 votes on 1 person is too many. Some scum must have been there.
Somewhat town on mcmc for pointing this out

[Joseph2302]

If I'm counting somewhat correctly, then the 3 biggest wagons right now are mix, ari and ADK.

Of those, mix is a no for me, so that leaves ari or ADK

[SpaceAnemone]

See why I asked? But I think not claiming softclaims VT whereas fakeclaiming PR is pointless town lying, in my opinion. Oh well.

How often in your other games have you asked about stuff like this? I feel that you're more likely either to flat-out demand that people tell you things, or just assert that you know things. The fact you're asking makes it feel like a play to me!

In related news, I'll be awake from about 90 minutes before deadline, though I have a meeting at work meeting 15 mins beforehand.

How strongly do you feel this way?

I assume you're asking how strongly I feel that MIX's question is a possible indicator that he's mafia. I'm uncertain, because it could be that he's genuinely trying to modulate his behaviour given how badly his playstyle went across last game, or it could be anomalous play.

I've been hesitant to vote him because I'm aware his style attracts votes in a way that's not linked to alignment, and also because I genuinely think that even if he's scum, he might contribute town-useful stuff in the later game, because his later-game inferences were good in the game where he was an SK.

I know Joth was around in RMM52, because he was modding it. Have any of the others who're currently voting MiX actually played with him before?

[Joseph2302]

ADK has had six different players vote for them.

Faust - for ADK name dropping the traitor a whole bunch
Joseph - sheep’s Faust (before Faust gave reasons)
MiX - (presumably voting for a different viable wagon)
Joth - unexplained
Swan - based on the amount of promoter talk ADK engaged I
Chairs - sheep’s Faust (after Faust gave reasons)
Faust return
Mix return
Joesph return

So most of these cases are promoter or traitor talk
Both of which weren't super helpful

I think it's scummier than anything ari has done, so Vote: ADK

I'm sleeping now, will be back in ~8 hours

PPE: 1

[MiX]

See why I asked? But I think not claiming softclaims VT whereas fakeclaiming PR is pointless town lying, in my opinion. Oh well.

How often in your other games have you asked about stuff like this? I feel that you're more likely either to flat-out demand that people tell you things, or just assert that you know things. The fact you're asking makes it feel like a play to me!

In related news, I'll be awake from about 90 minutes before deadline, though I have a meeting at work meeting 15 mins beforehand.

How strongly do you feel this way?

I assume you're asking how strongly I feel that MIX's question is a possible indicator that he's mafia. I'm uncertain, because it could be that he's genuinely trying to modulate his behaviour given how badly his playstyle went across last game, or it could be anomalous play.

I've been hesitant to vote him because I'm aware his style attracts votes in a way that's not linked to alignment, and also because I genuinely think that even if he's scum, he might contribute town-useful stuff in the later game, because his later-game inferences were good in the game where he was an SK.

I know Joth was around in RMM52, because he was modding it. Have any of the others who're currently voting MiX actually played with him before?

Galz gkrieg joth and chairs are the people that haven't played with me.

I think it's scummier than anything ari has done, so Vote: ADK

I'm sleeping now, will be back in ~8 hours

Vote: ADK

[Joseph2302]

Final thing I'll say for now is I think ari is just being an enthusiastic newbie. And if ari is scum, hopefully it'll become obvious in time anyway like it did last time we played

PPE: 1

[Glooble]

I know Joth was around in RMM52, because he was modding it. Have any of the others who're currently voting MiX actually played with him before?

I played in that game (only started co-modding after I died.) Iirc I thought he was scum, and I was right.

I don’t understand this mentality of hopping off a wagon every time we’re close to a consensus because it was “too easy”. Sure that might mean there’s scum on the wagon. It might also mean a player is acting scummy because they are scum.

[MiX]

I know Joth was around in RMM52, because he was modding it. Have any of the others who're currently voting MiX actually played with him before?

I played in that game (only started co-modding after I died.) Iirc I thought he was scum, and I was right.

I don’t understand this mentality of hopping off a wagon every time we’re close to a consensus because it was “too easy”. Sure that might mean there’s scum on the wagon. It might also mean a player is acting scummy because they are scum.

Do you think ari ADK and joth are towny? Would you ever move your vote to them?

[Glooble]

I know Joth was around in RMM52, because he was modding it. Have any of the others who're currently voting MiX actually played with him before?

I played in that game (only started co-modding after I died.) Iirc I thought he was scum, and I was right.

I don’t understand this mentality of hopping off a wagon every time we’re close to a consensus because it was “too easy”. Sure that might mean there’s scum on the wagon. It might also mean a player is acting scummy because they are scum.

Do you think ari ADK and joth are towny? Would you ever move your vote to them?

Probably would not vote joth today. Would vote ASK or ari. Would prefer you.

[faust]

Vote: MiX

[faust]

I don't really know the vote count but I prefer MiX over ari and ADK.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space count following #535

Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (5): Glooble, Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (3): DatSwan, Joseph2302, MiX
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): arishipshape
arishipshape (1): Galzria
Not Voting (1): A Drowned Kernel

[Galzria]

vote: ADK

[SpaceAnemone]

Galz gkrieg joth and chairs are the people that haven't played with me.

Fair, but given that Joth modded RMM 52, I'm going to assume he's read that game and is aware of your meta, and therefore if you are town and he's somewhat instrumental in lynching you, I should assume he's more aware of his actions than gkrieg or Chairs.

Urgh.. I don't actually want to be defending MiX here. I just want to be sure we don't let scum play up the fact that MiX apparently comes across as scummy and self-conscious irrespective of alignment.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: adk

[MiX]

Okay, this is probably my last post before deadline. Not much to add. Town will flip and between VT claim and unknown I almost prefer myself, so, yeah. Good night!

[Swowl]

Ok so a little under 11 hours and we are still pretty spread out.

1) MiX Wagon:
- If MiX was skum, pushing the promoter claim, I strongly believe they would of claimed town promoter here (if they were going to claim anything).
- It would not be ideal for skum, but I think that given the way the day has played out with them, if they are skum and there is a promoter, then there is a skum promoter. When they claim VT they look suspicious.
- If they were to claim Town Promoter, the only PR that could claim out of the same cell would be a Semi-Elite BG, which means nothing.
- They would however, then have to wake up the next day... which would be awkward if they are skum and claimed promoter.

Summary on MiX - At this point I think they are either VT or Traitor.



2) ADK Wagon:
- I have been promoting this based on the previously talked about Promoter claiming ideas for over half the day. I still think it is a good option.
- I am slightly doubting it based on reads and the way votes have moved around.
- I am very suspicious of Joseph's sheep vote on Faust that put ADK at 4 votes vs MiX's 4 votes.
- ADK's "general activity" matches the limited game time I have played with their town meta. Still the promoter thing was off at the beginning.

Summary - I think ADK could be skum. I do not think ADK and MiX are both skum. I think it is more likely that ADK is skum over MiX. However, I know have looked at Joseph....


3) Joseph:
- Supports the promoter claim at the beginning.
- Did not read the set up correctly. I do not personally put a lot of faith in that one, but it is something.
- Then, in post #235 he flips his read and says "wait we are trying to force the promoter out? I do not think that will work out the way we want it to". This could be due to the confusion of the set up, but that is not super relevant in regards to being pro or con the claim. So that is weird.
- Gives weird passes and reads. Like faust and Ari both get passes from Joseph. I actually kind of get the Ari one, at least from the reasons they gave... but the faust pass is strange. Could be conf!bias or partnery.
- Then there is #283 about there "being a traitor". By itself, not important. But combined with opening being pro-claim, then waffling on that, and the weak reasons for reads... I find it suspicious, specifically because the only argument for the 180 on the pro/con promoter claim could be "I didn't get the set up so I went back and read it", and now again, after this Traitor comment, they are still confused.
- #420 again referencing the upper right quadrant in the logic that there is a skum promoter.
- #439 says they are sheeping faust on ADK vote that puts ADK at 4-4 vs MiX.
- The off wagon players at this point are Space, EFHW, Chairs, MCMC, Ari, and Galz. If it is TownvTown wagons at this point, I have no problem at all believing there is at least one skum in that group.
- #506 "so either skum is bussing MiX, or they are not a known skum". I get that it is a reference to Town/Traitor vs Known Skum... but again, another reference to the upper right cell.
- He then limits MiX out of their lynch pool, leaving it between ADK and Ari.
- Unvotes ADK, then revotes shortly thereafter.

Summary - Given all the above, combined with the fact that Joeseph sits alone with myself and Mix on the wagon for ADK, and I think that between the three of them I like my chances in finding one skum... the skummiest of them to me is Joseph.

TLDR; I would lynch ADK to get the lynch off for the day. I do not want to lynch MiX... though if absolutely necessary, I would vs a no lynch. I prefer Joseph at this point.

I will be gone for the next 4-5 hours, and then I will be around for the 4-5 hours up to DL.

Vote: Joseph

PPE 5

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 1.5

"Oh, bother," mumbled Uncleeurope, "why must finals coincide with all these people voting for everyone like mad?"

He sat down and began tallying the ever-changing whim of a bloodthirsty mob.

"Looks like a few people have supplied their own vote counts, I may as well give them my stamp of Mod-Approval." Inwardly he corrected the statement to mark himself a co-mod, but he wasn't going to let his voice in on the secret.

With the counting complete, Uncleeurope leaned back in his chair. LaLight would be back soon, and it was his job to catalog the end of a life for one of these hopeful individuals. Uncleeurope looked forward to it.

Death was always exciting.


MiX (5): Glooble, chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
A Drowned Kernel (4):, Joseph2302, MiX, Galzria, mcmcsalot
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan
Galzria (1): EFHW
EFHW (1): arishipshape


Not voting (1): A Drowned Kernel


With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
Day 1 ends Wednesday, 1st of May, at 5:30 A.M.

[jotheonah]

I predict Ari will vote ADK to save MiX at the last minute (though I don't think the tie breakers work that way).

[A Drowned Kernel]

1) I don't like the mix wagon. I don't think that scum claims VT, like that, at the point that mix was at. If he's scum, that's some next level play. I also don't like, as has been pointed, that almost literally everyone has been willing to vote for him. And I have some suspicion for the people who are voting for him right now.

2) I don't like, even this close to deadline, how it's being set up as "having" to be me, mix or ari. I think that this is a pattern that lazy town is falling into and that scum is going along with. I have less of a townread on ari than on mix, but the fact that it's being set up this way smells rotten to me.

3) Looking back at the people who are voting/have voted for me, the player that really sticks out is Galzria. My only real experience playing with Galz has been a couple of blitz games on the other site, but in my experience there, town!Galz was very perceptive and engaged, while scum!Galz hung back and jumped on wagons opportunistically. The latter is what I'm seeing now; looking back at Galz in iso, his posts are all lacking in content. I don't know who's around to be convinced by this, but

vote: galz

ppe: joth

[jotheonah]

hot take: the adk wagon is scummy and the people on it are scummy.

adk's reticence to join the MiX wagon to save himself is commendable and towny.

galz could well be scum. but he's not a better lynch than MiX for myriad reasons.

[A Drowned Kernel]

hot take: the adk wagon is scummy and the people on it are scummy.

adk's reticence to join the MiX wagon to save himself is commendable and towny.

galz could well be scum. but he's not a better lynch than MiX for myriad reasons.

Do you earnestly think that MiX is scum at this point?

[jotheonah]

hot take: the adk wagon is scummy and the people on it are scummy.

adk's reticence to join the MiX wagon to save himself is commendable and towny.

galz could well be scum. but he's not a better lynch than MiX for myriad reasons.

Do you earnestly think that MiX is scum at this point?

now more than ever

[jotheonah]

but I'm definitely going to remember next time I'm scum that a half-hearted VT claim is all it takes for you people to lose your nerve

[chairs]

Grr. The more I think about it, the more I agree that mix isn’t scum - i would have expected a pr  claim to see if I could at least draw out a town pr

[chairs]

On that note vote: joth

[A Drowned Kernel]

On that note vote: joth

[A Drowned Kernel]

Why can't I just type three question marks, forum

[EFHW]

I really don't think MiX is scum. I'm voting Galzria, but ADK's vote for him looks scummy to me.

vote: ADK. I'll also ISO him now.

[EFHW]

I really don't think MiX is scum. I'm voting Galzria, but ADK's vote for him looks scummy to me.

vote: ADK. I'll also ISO him now.

In starting the ISO, I just noticed the they/them pronoun, sorry ADK.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I really don't think MiX is scum. I'm voting Galzria, but ADK's vote for him looks scummy to me.

vote: ADK. I'll also ISO him now.

In starting the ISO, I just noticed the they/them pronoun, sorry ADK.

No biggie

[jotheonah]

I do not understand what's happening here. Why is MiX suddenly town??

[Galzria]

I do not understand what's happening here. Why is MiX suddenly town??

Because he’s not scum.

[Glooble]

I’m going to sleep now, keeping my vote where it is, on my top scumread. With joth on being confused about why that VT claim swayed anyone. Good night and good luck.

[EFHW]

unvote. Should have done the ISO first.

[arishipshape]

I'll be available for the next three hours, then I'll be going to bed. Anyone want to ask me anything before MiX flips town?

Also, Chairs' saying "oh no, MiX was town after all" sounds suspiciously similar to my "oh no, MiX was town after all" at the end of day one in the last game I played. Significantly shorter and with less emotion, but similar. And I was scum that time.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'll be available for the next three hours, then I'll be going to bed. Anyone want to ask me anything before MiX flips town?

Also, Chairs' saying "oh no, MiX was town after all" sounds suspiciously similar to my "oh no, MiX was town after all" at the end of day one in the last game I played. Significantly shorter and with less emotion, but similar. And I was scum that time.

Do you really like your vote on EFHW right now?

[Glooble]

Sorry, one more thing before I go to bed:

- If MiX was skum, pushing the promoter claim, I strongly believe they would of claimed town promoter here (if they were going to claim anything).

Seriously? MiX claiming promoter here would be scummy as hell. He already explicitly said he wasn’t the promoter. So if he claimed promoter he’d have to explain why he lied. Also, if you’re actually a town promoter, why say “I think the promoter should claim”? Why not just claim? scum!MiX’s only real options for claims were VT or bodyguard.

[EFHW]

I'm going back to vote: arishipshape. One good thing about plurality lynch is this wagon only needs 4 more votes, not 7, to lead to a lynch.

[EFHW]

I wish MiX wasn't the default lynch right now. I just don't think he is scum. Despite my earlier comment, I really don't like plurality lynch.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I wish MiX wasn't the default lynch right now. I just don't think he is scum. Despite my earlier comment, I really don't like plurality lynch.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm better sure him and I are tied, so if things don't change, it's going to be one of us at random!

[Swowl]

Sorry, one more thing before I go to bed:

- If MiX was skum, pushing the promoter claim, I strongly believe they would of claimed town promoter here (if they were going to claim anything).

Seriously? MiX claiming promoter here would be scummy as hell. He already explicitly said he wasn’t the promoter. So if he claimed promoter he’d have to explain why he lied. Also, if you’re actually a town promoter, why say “I think the promoter should claim”? Why not just claim? scum!MiX’s only real options for claims were VT or bodyguard.

Ah yes, he did already say he was not the promoter prior to the claim. So scratch that. But I still think he would of gone with BG instead of VT if skum.

[Swowl]

also more importantly - I completely forgot that it was a plurality lynch rule in effect. So all of my comments about doing it over no lynch are pretty much pointless - They can be replaced with "I would put my vote on Joseph for ADK over MiX" instead of "I want to vote Joseph, but I would go to ADK to avoid No Lynch". Same thing really, just specifying so there is no potential confusion in the future.

[Galzria]

also more importantly - I completely forgot that it was a plurality lynch rule in effect. So all of my comments about doing it over no lynch are pretty much pointless - They can be replaced with "I would put my vote on Joseph for ADK over MiX" instead of "I want to vote Joseph, but I would go to ADK to avoid No Lynch". Same thing really, just specifying so there is no potential confusion in the future.

Can I interest you (or anyone else) in Joth?

[Swowl]

also more importantly - I completely forgot that it was a plurality lynch rule in effect. So all of my comments about doing it over no lynch are pretty much pointless - They can be replaced with "I would put my vote on Joseph for ADK over MiX" instead of "I want to vote Joseph, but I would go to ADK to avoid No Lynch". Same thing really, just specifying so there is no potential confusion in the future.

Can I interest you (or anyone else) in Joth?

Let me check and I'll get back to you in an hour or so.

[jotheonah]

If y’all lynch me while I am sleeping, I’m gonna be ... fine with it cause I’m the Jester.



More importantly, maybe it’s my mod’s eye view of DS9 that makes me 100% sure that MiX is smart and devious enough to claim VT here. That would explain why Glooble shares my viewpoint and no one else does.

[arishipshape]

I'll be available for the next three hours, then I'll be going to bed. Anyone want to ask me anything before MiX flips town?

Also, Chairs' saying "oh no, MiX was town after all" sounds suspiciously similar to my "oh no, MiX was town after all" at the end of day one in the last game I played. Significantly shorter and with less emotion, but similar. And I was scum that time.

Do you really like your vote on EFHW right now?

No. EFHW came back.Unvote

[Galzria]

If y’all lynch me while I am sleeping, I’m gonna be ... fine with it cause I’m the Jester.

I would be willing to risk it.

Besides, you could also be Lyncher with MiX as your target.

[Galzria]

Actually, vote: Joth

[Galzria]

Actually, vote: Joth

((And no, I don’t believe he’s Jester... or Lyncher - whose possible existence we actually don’t need to care about that much))

[jotheonah]

unofficial vote count:

MiX (4): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
A Drowned Kernel (3): Joseph2302, MiX, mcmcsalot
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan
joth (2): chairs, Galz
Galzria (1): ADK
ari (1): EFHW

Not voting (1): ari

[mcmcsalot]

The scrambling is being done by a limited number of people which means MiX is town and scum isn’t helping us consolidate anywhere else

[gkrieg13]

Here for just a short time. Feeling fine with MiX. But also I agree with ADK I think. Would do ari instead.

[arishipshape]

I'll be going to sleep soon. I townread MiX and ADK, I don't want to vote either of them. But I should probably have a vote down before the day ends. Vote: Joth

[Joseph2302]

I wish MiX wasn't the default lynch right now. I just don't think he is scum. Despite my earlier comment, I really don't like plurality lynch.

Don't see why we still have 4 people on MiX. The fact we do makes me feel that there's some scum on that wagon, as it was just so easy to build a wagon for him

[Joseph2302]

I'd consider voting ari or maybe even joth if it would lead to a lynch that isn't MiX

[Joseph2302]

Because right now, I'm about 90% sure mix is VT

[Joseph2302]

And I'll be back online in a couple of hours

[Joseph2302]

Also, Request: vote count

[Swowl]

I believe this is accurate to date:

MiX (4): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
A Drowned Kernel (3): Joseph2302, MiX, mcmcsalot
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan
joth (3): chairs, Galz, Ari
Galzria (1): ADK
ari (1): EFHW

[Swowl]

Ok so I am around and I am not doing anything with my vote on Joseph evidently...
I just re read Joth and I am still like right on Null there.

Could someone on the Joth wagon give me a run down of why they are there please?

[Swowl]

The scrambling is being done by a limited number of people which means MiX is town and scum isn’t helping us consolidate anywhere else

I mean I actually agree with you here, but to play devil's advocate...
1) There is plenty of time for scrambling still
2) There is the unlikely alternative (imo at least), in which MiX is skum

[arishipshape]

Alright, I'm going to bed. Don't lynch me while I'm asleep, that'd just be cruel.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 1.6

Should Uncleeurope have been putting up more vote counts than he had been? He didn't know, he barely cared.

He just wanted the death to come.

Death always brought clarity.


MiX (4): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
A Drowned Kernel (3): Joseph2302, MiX, mcmcsalot
jotheonah (3): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
arishipshape (1): EFHW

Not voting (0):


With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
Day 1 ends Wednesday, 1st of May, at 5:30 A.M.

[Joseph2302]

So t he lynch choices seem to be {mix, ADK, joth}
My preferences would be ADK > joth >> MiX

But I want to Vote: joth for now, as that puts them in a tie with MiX. Probably most likely wagon other than the stubborn people on MiX

[Swowl]

OK so I am not one to attack someone that has stated they won't be here to defend themselves... but my 1 and 2 were Joseph and ADK and Joseph just called g'night and moved from ADK to alt wagon Joth.

Is anyone here? Can I convince any Joth people to come Joseph?

[EFHW]

Ties aren't broken randomly.  Deadline 2 hours.

[EFHW]

Prefer Joseph over joth or MiX. vote: joseph

[Swowl]

Ties aren't broken randomly.  Deadline 2 hours.

I also did not realize this.

Quote from Setup:
Plurality Rules!
When time for the day is up and no majority has been reached, the player with the most votes is lynched.  If there is a tie, the player who most recently had more votes is lynched. If there is still a tie, the player who reached their current number of votes first is lynched. If there is still a tie, the player who most recently won a board game is lynched. If your vote is 1 second after the set deadline, that vote does not count, whether I've locked the thread or not.

If I read the above correctly, then if we tie out anyone, the most recently voted tied player will be the lynch?

[Swowl]

Joke side note - I so very much hope that at some point this game there is an x-x tie at the same time so we get to have the discussion of validity of who won the most recent board game

[faust]

Oh Joseph is still an option?

Vote: Joseph

[faust]

Sooo joth 4/Joseph 4? That would still make joth the lynch? I strongly dislike that. I will go back to MiX to avoid a joth lynch.

[Swowl]

Sooo joth 4/Joseph 4? That would still make joth the lynch? I strongly dislike that. I will go back to MiX to avoid a joth lynch.

false (I think) You put Joseph at 4 last and neither I think have been higher that that? So that would mean Joseph lynch I believe. I mean we have 2 hours still, but as of now, that is what I understand.

[Swowl]

Sooo joth 4/Joseph 4? That would still make joth the lynch? I strongly dislike that. I will go back to MiX to avoid a joth lynch.

false (I think) You put Joseph at 4 last and neither I think have been higher that that? So that would mean Joseph lynch I believe. I mean we have 2 hours still, but as of now, that is what I understand.

wrong. I am false, you are correct. just re read it.

[Swowl]

Sooo joth 4/Joseph 4? That would still make joth the lynch? I strongly dislike that. I will go back to MiX to avoid a joth lynch.

false (I think) You put Joseph at 4 last and neither I think have been higher that that? So that would mean Joseph lynch I believe. I mean we have 2 hours still, but as of now, that is what I understand.

wrong. I am false, you are correct. just re read it.

anyone else wanna jump over to Joseph?

[faust]

Sooo joth 4/Joseph 4? That would still make joth the lynch? I strongly dislike that. I will go back to MiX to avoid a joth lynch.

false (I think) You put Joseph at 4 last and neither I think have been higher that that? So that would mean Joseph lynch I believe. I mean we have 2 hours still, but as of now, that is what I understand.

Doesn't me putting im to 4 now mean that before my vote, joth had more votes than Joseph and thus joth most recently had more votes? Either way it seems clear that joth has reached 4 votes first, so if the former is a tie, that would still lead to a joth lynch? I don't understand how you arrive at Joseph.

Also how much longer will you be around and would you be down for lynching ADK if we don't get Joseph?

[jotheonah]

4 am jotheonah says vote: Joseph then immediately goes back to sleep

[Swowl]

Sooo joth 4/Joseph 4? That would still make joth the lynch? I strongly dislike that. I will go back to MiX to avoid a joth lynch.

false (I think) You put Joseph at 4 last and neither I think have been higher that that? So that would mean Joseph lynch I believe. I mean we have 2 hours still, but as of now, that is what I understand.

Doesn't me putting im to 4 now mean that before my vote, joth had more votes than Joseph and thus joth most recently had more votes? Either way it seems clear that joth has reached 4 votes first, so if the former is a tie, that would still lead to a joth lynch? I don't understand how you arrive at Joseph.

Also how much longer will you be around and would you be down for lynching ADK if we don't get Joseph?

I am around. Too much fun, I will be here until DL or when I pass out.
I got Joseph and Joth mixed up (assuming you are correct).

And if the difference is between MiX and ADK, I would go to ADK from Joseph. Joth would be an option as well. Pretty much I would prefer to not lynch MiX. The information-given line on Joth/MiX is pretty blurred imo - as in I think there is a better chance that Joth is skum but we would learn much more from a MiX flip.

TLDR; I will be around, and yes I would change to ADK if needed.

PPE 1

[Joseph2302]

Oh Joseph is still an option?

Vote: Joseph

Not a good option

[Swowl]

Vote Count to my best ability:

MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (2): MiX, mcmcsalot
jotheonah (3): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape
Joseph2302 (5): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, Faust, Joth
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel

[Joseph2302]

Sooo joth 4/Joseph 4? That would still make joth the lynch? I strongly dislike that. I will go back to MiX to avoid a joth lynch.

false (I think) You put Joseph at 4 last and neither I think have been higher that that? So that would mean Joseph lynch I believe. I mean we have 2 hours still, but as of now, that is what I understand.

Doesn't me putting im to 4 now mean that before my vote, joth had more votes than Joseph and thus joth most recently had more votes? Either way it seems clear that joth has reached 4 votes first, so if the former is a tie, that would still lead to a joth lynch? I don't understand how you arrive at Joseph.

Also how much longer will you be around and would you be down for lynching ADK if we don't get Joseph?

I am around. Too much fun, I will be here until DL or when I pass out.
I got Joseph and Joth mixed up (assuming you are correct).

And if the difference is between MiX and ADK, I would go to ADK from Joseph. Joth would be an option as well. Pretty much I would prefer to not lynch MiX. The information-given line on Joth/MiX is pretty blurred imo - as in I think there is a better chance that Joth is skum but we would learn much more from a MiX flip.

TLDR; I will be around, and yes I would change to ADK if needed.

PPE 1

I would change to ADK to self preserve of if people convince me it's better than joth

[Joseph2302]

And I'd reluctantly go mix to self preserve to, though I'm pretty sure they're town

[faust]

Oh Joseph is still an option?

Vote: Joseph

Not a good option

Do you have more to say? Barring some unexpected early morning people in the US, you are going to be the lynch.

[Swowl]

Vote Count to my best ability:

MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (2): MiX, mcmcsalot
jotheonah (3): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape
Joseph2302 (5): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, Faust, Joth
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel

corrected:
MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (2): MiX, mcmcsalot
jotheonah (4): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph
Joseph2302 (5): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, Faust, Joth
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel

[Joseph2302]

FFS, do I need to claim?

[Swowl]

FFS, do I need to claim?

I would assume you already know whether a claim is beneficial or not for town... assuming you are town. i would not rope other's opinions into it as that could lead to more avenues for skum to pursue.

[Joseph2302]

FFS, do I need to claim?

I would assume you already know whether a claim is beneficial or not for town... assuming you are town. i would not rope other's opinions into it as that could lead to more avenues for skum to pursue.

Well it depends if people are going to be idiotic enough to lynch me out of nowhere. This wagon seems scummy, as it built up from nowhere, unlike all the other wagons today

[Joseph2302]

I didn't want to do it, but you'll probably lynch me otherwise
I'm a semi elite bodyguard

[faust]

FFS, do I need to claim?

I would assume you already know whether a claim is beneficial or not for town... assuming you are town. i would not rope other's opinions into it as that could lead to more avenues for skum to pursue.

Well it depends if people are going to be idiotic enough to lynch me out of nowhere. This wagon seems scummy, as it built up from nowhere, unlike all the other wagons today

From where did the other wagons build up?

[Joseph2302]

Now can we lynch someone else?

PPE: 1

[faust]

I didn't want to do it, but you'll probably lynch me otherwise
I'm a semi elite bodyguard

It's the most convenient claim, as there can be 2.

[Joseph2302]

I didn't want to do it, but you'll probably lynch me otherwise
I'm a semi elite bodyguard

It's the most convenient claim, as there can be 2.

VT would be most convenient, as there's 5+ of them

[faust]

Most of all I don't buy that you got this role and subsequently believed that only one of the quadrants is chosen, because then there wouldn't be an option for 2 bodyguards.

[Swowl]

I didn't want to do it, but you'll probably lynch me otherwise
I'm a semi elite bodyguard

It's the most convenient claim, as there can be 2.

VT would be most convenient, as there's 5+ of them

reads then. give them plz.

PPE

What faust said

[Joseph2302]

Most of all I don't buy that you got this role and subsequently believed that only one of the quadrants is chosen, because then there wouldn't be an option for 2 bodyguards.

That's true, if I'd read my role PM correctly
I saw bodyguard and was like "yh, I know what that does, cool", and missed the 2 bodyguard thing. It's a crap defence but it's true

[Joseph2302]

I didn't want to do it, but you'll probably lynch me otherwise
I'm a semi elite bodyguard

It's the most convenient claim, as there can be 2.

VT would be most convenient, as there's 5+ of them

reads then. give them plz.

PPE

What faust said

I think faust, mix are town, as faust's  logic on me makes sense, even if it assumes I'm a competent human being
 And chairs as well seems reasonably town from their limited number of posts
Joth and ADK seem scummier to me. Also slight scum read on Space, they've only voted for me this game ,and dont seem to hace considered many alternatives

[MiX]

Oh I didn't die yet. I was mostly just reading for fun at this point, but I guess I'm still in the game.

Vote: joth, because Joseph's claim will out him eventually.

I'll read everything that was said before I went to sleep more carefully.

[Swowl]

I didn't want to do it, but you'll probably lynch me otherwise
I'm a semi elite bodyguard

It's the most convenient claim, as there can be 2.

VT would be most convenient, as there's 5+ of them

reads then. give them plz.

PPE

What faust said

I think faust, mix are town, as faust's  logic on me makes sense, even if it assumes I'm a competent human being
 And chairs as well seems reasonably town from their limited number of posts
Joth and ADK seem scummier to me. Also slight scum read on Space, they've only voted for me this game ,and dont seem to hace considered many alternatives

what do you want me to do with this list?
You think that me and the only other person online are town.
You think that the other two lynch candidates that me and faust have spoken of are skum?
And then space?

PPE 1

[Swowl]

I didn't want to do it, but you'll probably lynch me otherwise
I'm a semi elite bodyguard

It's the most convenient claim, as there can be 2.

VT would be most convenient, as there's 5+ of them

reads then. give them plz.

PPE

What faust said

I think faust, mix are town, as faust's  logic on me makes sense, even if it assumes I'm a competent human being
 And chairs as well seems reasonably town from their limited number of posts
Joth and ADK seem scummier to me. Also slight scum read on Space, they've only voted for me this game ,and dont seem to hace considered many alternatives

what do you want me to do with this list?
You think that me and the only other person online are town.
You think that the other two lynch candidates that me and faust have spoken of are skum?
And then space?

PPE 1

not me* - mean MiX*

[Joseph2302]

I didn't want to do it, but you'll probably lynch me otherwise
I'm a semi elite bodyguard

It's the most convenient claim, as there can be 2.

VT would be most convenient, as there's 5+ of them

reads then. give them plz.

PPE

What faust said

I think faust, mix are town, as faust's  logic on me makes sense, even if it assumes I'm a competent human being
 And chairs as well seems reasonably town from their limited number of posts
Joth and ADK seem scummier to me. Also slight scum read on Space, they've only voted for me this game ,and dont seem to hace considered many alternatives

what do you want me to do with this list?
You think that me and the only other person online are town.
You think that the other two lynch candidates that me and faust have spoken of are skum?
And then space?

PPE 1

Vote joth

[Joseph2302]

That would make it 5/4 to joth

[Joseph2302]

Yes scum in {joth, ADK, Space}

[Swowl]

Oh I didn't die yet. I was mostly just reading for fun at this point, but I guess I'm still in the game.

Vote: joth, because Joseph's claim will out him eventually.

I'll read everything that was said before I went to sleep more carefully.

Eventually is a long term word here. There have to be 2 relevant flips before their claim can be countered.

[Swowl]

Oh I didn't die yet. I was mostly just reading for fun at this point, but I guess I'm still in the game.

Vote: joth, because Joseph's claim will out him eventually.

I'll read everything that was said before I went to sleep more carefully.

Eventually is a long term word here. There have to be 2 relevant flips before their claim can be countered.

That't not true actually, but assuming they are skum claiming under the info that there is at least one BG would be my point.

[faust]

Oh I didn't die yet. I was mostly just reading for fun at this point, but I guess I'm still in the game.

Vote: joth, because Joseph's claim will out him eventually.

I'll read everything that was said before I went to sleep more carefully.

Eventually is a long term word here. There have to be 2 relevant flips before their claim can be countered.

That't not true actually, but assuming they are skum claiming under the info that there is at least one BG would be my point.

Isn't there always at least 1 Bodyguard?

[MiX]

Oh I didn't die yet. I was mostly just reading for fun at this point, but I guess I'm still in the game.

Vote: joth, because Joseph's claim will out him eventually.

I'll read everything that was said before I went to sleep more carefully.

Eventually is a long term word here. There have to be 2 relevant flips before their claim can be countered.

We only need to know what town block there is for bodyguards to start counterclaiming. There's also the fact bodyguards have to breadcrumb who they target, which means...well, mostly that Traitor doesn't want to claim it. I'm fine with either lynch, but I think joth's just a bit too eager to lynch me.

PPE 2: Your setup posts keep confusing me Swan...

[faust]

We only need to know what town block there is for bodyguards to start counterclaiming. There's also the fact bodyguards have to breadcrumb who they target, which means...well, mostly that Traitor doesn't want to claim it. I'm fine with either lynch, but I think joth's just a bit too eager to lynch me.

That only works if we're in the town block that doesn't have an extra bodyguard.

[MiX]

We only need to know what town block there is for bodyguards to start counterclaiming. There's also the fact bodyguards have to breadcrumb who they target, which means...well, mostly that Traitor doesn't want to claim it. I'm fine with either lynch, but I think joth's just a bit too eager to lynch me.

That only works if we're in the town block that doesn't have an extra bodyguard.

That's not true, although it would help if we were in that one for BG counterclaims. We could still force a 2v1, which I suppose is bad? But bodyguards can kill themselves to prove their townieness, so not the worst. There's also the fact that BG flips incriminate Joseph (although not before they all claim).

[Swowl]

Apologies - I type as I think.

My point is, if they were skum they know which corner of the field is in play.
So with this claim I would assume that with this claim they are either telling the truth, or we are in the upper-left, or the bottom right.
If upper left, it forces two BGs to claim to get the right info.
If bottom right, it forces the actual BG to claim to get the right info.

Pretty much, it is the go to claim for credit here. I don't assign additional skum points from the ones I already had, but it does not get any town cred either.


PPE 3

[Joseph2302]

Well the point of a bodyguard is to protect, and I feel like I lose that ability somewhat by being outed. But I had to claim

PPE: 1

[faust]

We only need to know what town block there is for bodyguards to start counterclaiming. There's also the fact bodyguards have to breadcrumb who they target, which means...well, mostly that Traitor doesn't want to claim it. I'm fine with either lynch, but I think joth's just a bit too eager to lynch me.

That only works if we're in the town block that doesn't have an extra bodyguard.

That's not true, although it would help if we were in that one for BG counterclaims. We could still force a 2v1, which I suppose is bad? But bodyguards can kill themselves to prove their townieness, so not the worst. There's also the fact that BG flips incriminate Joseph (although not before they all claim).

I mean all of this assumes Joseph is actually scum. If you are so sure that he is, we might as well lynch him now. If Joseph were town, and then 1 Bodyguard decides to "counterclaim", it only leads to both Bodyguards outed.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm here, I'm kind of awake, I'm sad that no one joined me on galz

vote: joseph fishy claim

[faust]

My point is, if they were skum they know which corner of the field is in play.

I'm confused - how would scum know upper left vs bottom right?

[MiX]

You know, I just realized something: do the twins have the same reads? Because I just figured out they're the ones that are most confident in their scumread on me. Yet I'm townreading Glooble. This is to say I'm ISOing joth, and then Joseph of course.

Well the point of a bodyguard is to protect, and I feel like I lose that ability somewhat by being outed. But I had to claim

PPE: 1

You can still protect. Getting NKd is worse than protecting but it has the same purpose: to protect our PRs.

PPE 3: BGs should only claim when we know what town block there is, precisely because of that.

[Swowl]

We only need to know what town block there is for bodyguards to start counterclaiming. There's also the fact bodyguards have to breadcrumb who they target, which means...well, mostly that Traitor doesn't want to claim it. I'm fine with either lynch, but I think joth's just a bit too eager to lynch me.

That only works if we're in the town block that doesn't have an extra bodyguard.

That's not true, although it would help if we were in that one for BG counterclaims. We could still force a 2v1, which I suppose is bad? But bodyguards can kill themselves to prove their townieness, so not the worst. There's also the fact that BG flips incriminate Joseph (although not before they all claim).

Your logic makes sense. Except it is 130am PST and 80% of the players in the game are asleep.

PPE many

[MiX]

We only need to know what town block there is for bodyguards to start counterclaiming. There's also the fact bodyguards have to breadcrumb who they target, which means...well, mostly that Traitor doesn't want to claim it. I'm fine with either lynch, but I think joth's just a bit too eager to lynch me.

That only works if we're in the town block that doesn't have an extra bodyguard.

That's not true, although it would help if we were in that one for BG counterclaims. We could still force a 2v1, which I suppose is bad? But bodyguards can kill themselves to prove their townieness, so not the worst. There's also the fact that BG flips incriminate Joseph (although not before they all claim).

Your logic makes sense. Except it is 130am PST and 80% of the players in the game are asleep.

PPE many

We shouldn't do this today, of course. Just something for later.

[faust]

PPE 3: BGs should only claim when we know what town block there is, precisely because of that.

But then if we know we're in upper left, they still shouldn't claim.

[Swowl]

My point is, if they were skum they know which corner of the field is in play.

I'm confused - how would scum know upper left vs bottom right?

under the assumption Joseph is skum.

[faust]

My point is, if they were skum they know which corner of the field is in play.

I'm confused - how would scum know upper left vs bottom right?

under the assumption Joseph is skum.

I'm still confused. Why does that assumption make it so that they know?

[Swowl]

My point is, if they were skum they know which corner of the field is in play.

I'm confused - how would scum know upper left vs bottom right?

under the assumption Joseph is skum.

To say..
Upper left is safe because there are gtd two
Bottom right is good for skum because it is the worst square for them and would potentially force a claim from the real BG.

[MiX]

My point is, if they were skum they know which corner of the field is in play.

I'm confused - how would scum know upper left vs bottom right?

under the assumption Joseph is skum.

I'm still confused. Why does that assumption make it so that they know?

He's saying that if Joseph's scum, then we have 1 of the town blocks: this is trivially true, because we ALWAYS have 1 of the town blocks.

PPE 1

[Joseph2302]

I'm here, I'm kind of awake, I'm sad that no one joined me on galz

vote: joseph fishy claim

This is 5/5 now I believe?

[Swowl]

We only need to know what town block there is for bodyguards to start counterclaiming. There's also the fact bodyguards have to breadcrumb who they target, which means...well, mostly that Traitor doesn't want to claim it. I'm fine with either lynch, but I think joth's just a bit too eager to lynch me.

That only works if we're in the town block that doesn't have an extra bodyguard.

That's not true, although it would help if we were in that one for BG counterclaims. We could still force a 2v1, which I suppose is bad? But bodyguards can kill themselves to prove their townieness, so not the worst. There's also the fact that BG flips incriminate Joseph (although not before they all claim).

I mean all of this assumes Joseph is actually scum. If you are so sure that he is, we might as well lynch him now. If Joseph were town, and then 1 Bodyguard decides to "counterclaim", it only leads to both Bodyguards outed.

I mean... I am ACTUALLY assuming Joseph is skum.

[Joseph2302]

We only need to know what town block there is for bodyguards to start counterclaiming. There's also the fact bodyguards have to breadcrumb who they target, which means...well, mostly that Traitor doesn't want to claim it. I'm fine with either lynch, but I think joth's just a bit too eager to lynch me.

That only works if we're in the town block that doesn't have an extra bodyguard.

That's not true, although it would help if we were in that one for BG counterclaims. We could still force a 2v1, which I suppose is bad? But bodyguards can kill themselves to prove their townieness, so not the worst. There's also the fact that BG flips incriminate Joseph (although not before they all claim).

I mean all of this assumes Joseph is actually scum. If you are so sure that he is, we might as well lynch him now. If Joseph were town, and then 1 Bodyguard decides to "counterclaim", it only leads to both Bodyguards outed.

I mean... I am ACTUALLY assuming Joseph is skum.

Please don't. Because assuming I'm scum will encourage the other bodyguard (if applicable) to come out too. Also, I'm not scum

[faust]

I'm here, I'm kind of awake, I'm sad that no one joined me on galz

vote: joseph fishy claim

This is 5/5 now I believe?

6/5 I think.

[MiX]

I'm here, I'm kind of awake, I'm sad that no one joined me on galz

vote: joseph fishy claim

This is 5/5 now I believe?

6/5 I think.

Is that joseph/joth? Why do you both start with j?

[faust]

This is what I think it looks like:

MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (5): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph, MiX
Joseph2302 (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, Faust, Joth, ADK

[Swowl]

This is what I think it looks like:

MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (5): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph, MiX
Joseph2302 (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, Faust, Joth, ADK

checks out from my count

[Joseph2302]

This is what I think it looks like:

MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (5): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph, MiX
Joseph2302 (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, Faust, Joth, ADK

Ffs ADK is so scummy for voting for a claimed PR

[Joseph2302]

This is what I think it looks like:

MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (5): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph, MiX
Joseph2302 (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, Faust, Joth, ADK

checks out from my count

I thought Datswan switched to joth?

[faust]

This is what I think it looks like:

MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (5): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph, MiX
Joseph2302 (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, Faust, Joth, ADK

Ffs ADK is so scummy for voting for a claimed PR

But of course I am town for it. 

[Swowl]

This is what I think it looks like:

MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (5): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph, MiX
Joseph2302 (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, Faust, Joth, ADK

checks out from my count

I thought Datswan switched to joth?

I did not.

[MiX]

ISOing joth tells me he put just the right amount of effort to have 2 scumreads, and that seems to be everything he did today. I disagree with his setup points, his reads and overall the way he played D1 (yeah, this last part makes me have a bias, but I can't really throw it away). As of right now, the only town thing I've seen from him was making a case on ari and correctly identifying that I would pull a really weird plan of claiming VT D1 as scum, that does feel like me (although I wouldn't actually do it, I would consider it heavily, especially if I was SK). Eh. Joseph's next.

[Joseph2302]

This is what I think it looks like:

MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (5): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph, MiX
Joseph2302 (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, Faust, Joth, ADK

checks out from my count

I thought Datswan switched to joth?

I did not.

Well you're an idiot not to.
Because I'm a bodyguard

[MiX]

Well you're an idiot not to.
Because I'm a bodyguard

Did you breadcrumb yet? Or are you waiting?

[MiX]

So either scum are bussing, or mix isn't a known scum

Why didn't you say "or mix is town" here? Was confused, still confused. You seem scummier than joth. I don't know...

[MiX]

Yes scum in {joth, ADK, Space}

Still scumreading Space? They seem to be the towniest player alive...well, other than all the other incredibly towny players. For me this says: why are you so sure joth is scum?

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm around.. read the thread briefly earlier then fell asleep again. Now at work, expecting imminent inconveniently-timed meeting.

Space-count in a moment...

[SpaceAnemone]

Space count

Joseph2302 (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, faust, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel
MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (5): Chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph2302, MiX

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm okay with my Joseph vote, old as it is. I'll re-read Joth just in case.

[MiX]

ISOing gave me 3 questions and basically no answers...since swapping only solidifies Joseph's lynch I won't do it yet. I would love to see the answers.

I'm around.. read the thread briefly earlier then fell asleep again. Now at work, expecting imminent inconveniently-timed meeting.

Space-count in a moment...

We're deciding between joth and Joseph: currently 5 votes for joth and 6 for Joseph, plurality rules say that whoever was first put on L-whatever first is lynched. Example: If someone that isn't voting Joseph voted joth, it would be 6/6, and since Joseph was on 6 first he would get lynched.

PPE 2

[MiX]

I'm okay with my Joseph vote, old as it is. I'll re-read Joth just in case.

Why are you okay with Joseph? Although I think you're town, I don't think you've done much today...

[MiX]

How much time do we have? 3 minutes?

[SpaceAnemone]

Bah.. work got in the way and now I think the deadline has past.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm okay with my Joseph vote, old as it is. I'll re-read Joth just in case.

Why are you okay with Joseph? Although I think you're town, I don't think you've done much today...

Well, either he's a poorly-fakeclaiming scum, or he's town who's really not thinking things through too clearly.

[MiX]

Bah.. work got in the way and now I think the deadline has past.

Indeed. Oh well. Not dying was definitely a surprise, now to see what Joseph flips!

I'm okay with my Joseph vote, old as it is. I'll re-read Joth just in case.

Why are you okay with Joseph? Although I think you're town, I don't think you've done much today...

Well, either he's a poorly-fakeclaiming scum, or he's town who's really not thinking things through too clearly.

Oh, so you think he's town now? I thought the fakeclaim was good.

[Glooble]

I really don’t understand why we didn’t lynch MiX. Hopefully Joseph is scum, I didn’t have much of a read there and the claim is... what you would expect scum to claim, which doesn’t mean it’s not true.

I get that some people jumped off MiX because they didn’t think he was scummy, and if that’s your reasoning, fine, but if you jumped off because the wagon built too quickly and then jumped on the joth or Joseph wagons which built even more quickly, big ol’ FOS to all of you.

[LaLight]

Thread Locked.

[LaLight]

Vote Count 1.final


MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (5): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph2302, MiX
Joseph2302 (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, faust, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel

Not voting (0):


With 14 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

[LaLight]

Choosing between my flavor and Uncleeurope's flavor is hard. It's like choosing between cherry and strawberry flavor of ice cream – they are different but both very compelling.

But you can also have both. And this is this game.

Oh, also Joseph was lynched. He was Lyncher Doctor.

Have a good night. It will end in 48 hours, 3rd of May at 6.30 am FT.

[Uncleeurope]

Uncleeurope was worried, which, while not completely out of character for him, was different today. Why? Because LaLight was missing. Had he been murdered? Was he going to be missing forever? Had Uncleeurope done him in for the sake of ripping off the "Co" in "Co-Mod?"

No one could say for sure, not even Uncleeurope. He didn't know where he was last night. And why should he? He assumed he had been asleep, but it was hard to say.

All he was certain of was that he wasn't the one to kill mcmcsalot the Vanilla Townie, but there he was, lying on the ground.

It also seemed like jotheonah had been promoted to take place in a fight today.

Well, hopefully LaLight's fate was a little more hopeful than mcmcsalot's.

Day Two has started!

Not voting (12): arishipshape, DatSwan, chairs, jotheonah, MiX, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Glooble, Galzria, faust, SpaceAnemone, EFHW


With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 2 ends 10th of May, 8:30 am

Thread Unlocked.

[jotheonah]

Well well well looks like someone decided to call me on my WIFOMing bullshit

[MiX]

So, first of all, sorry for all the anti-town crap I pulled to survive yesterday. Not exactly proud of it. Second of all, setup is such a mess I don't think there's much to talk about it yet, since I'm pretty sure we don't want claims. Third of all, good job lynching Joseph.

I would also like to take full credit for making joth, the towniest man alive, look like the scummiest man alive, enough for promoter to target him. Hopefully it was scum promoter, given that I have no idea who would target joth as town promoter here...

mcmc was town? Okay. The scummiest person right now is probably...Swan? Not sure I can even pick 3 players to be scum without thinking "no, this guy's obviously town..."

Is that all? I didn't get a lot of good reads, just the town!joth one.

[EFHW]

Yesterday you had nothing towny to say about joth after your iso. What changed?

[EFHW]

Are you saying you wanted him to look scummy?

[jotheonah]

MiX! I was all set to not target you but that post makes me want to target you! Can you prove that fighting with me was a gambit? Is there a breadcrumb?

[MiX]

Are you saying you wanted him to look scummy?

No, it wasn't intentional...I'm not that crazy. I just like how it "worked", in a way. I saw that joth's posts are way, WAY bigger when he's scum, and in this game he hasn't made one of those yet. That and he's actually scumhunting and following his townmeta and whatnot.

MiX! I was all set to not target you but that post makes me want to target you! Can you prove that fighting with me was a gambit? Is there a breadcrumb?

Answer's above, I just wanted to quote this to say...how can I breadcrumb a gambit? Then again I have no idea how to breadcrumb, so...

[jotheonah]

Are you saying you wanted him to look scummy?

No, it wasn't intentional...I'm not that crazy. I just like how it "worked", in a way. I saw that joth's posts are way, WAY bigger when he's scum, and in this game he hasn't made one of those yet. That and he's actually scumhunting and following his townmeta and whatnot.

MiX! I was all set to not target you but that post makes me want to target you! Can you prove that fighting with me was a gambit? Is there a breadcrumb?

Answer's above, I just wanted to quote this to say...how can I breadcrumb a gambit? Then again I have no idea how to breadcrumb, so...

Ok, but you have to realize how this looks...

[MiX]

Are you saying you wanted him to look scummy?

No, it wasn't intentional...I'm not that crazy. I just like how it "worked", in a way. I saw that joth's posts are way, WAY bigger when he's scum, and in this game he hasn't made one of those yet. That and he's actually scumhunting and following his townmeta and whatnot.

MiX! I was all set to not target you but that post makes me want to target you! Can you prove that fighting with me was a gambit? Is there a breadcrumb?

Answer's above, I just wanted to quote this to say...how can I breadcrumb a gambit? Then again I have no idea how to breadcrumb, so...

Ok, but you have to realize how this looks...

How what looks? For me, you being gladiator means you're town, and I'm extremely happy that I got this information, because I started the night thinking you're scum. The only problem here is I have too many townreads.

I'll get to analyzing the D1 votes, I guess I only have 3 days to do that...I usually like to take my time, but I guess it'll have to be rushed.

[jotheonah]

If promoter is scum, I was either targeted (A) because MiX is town and scum thought I couldn’t resist challenging him, (B) because MiX is scum and scum thought I wouldn’t dare challenge him, or (C) because everyone has such a scumread on me that it doesn’t matter who I challenge because I’ll lose.

Anyway, MiX’s kicking in the door with shameless buddying feels consistent with B.

If promoter is town then I was obviously targeted by someone who thinks I’m scum and it’s basically also C.

So my best hope here is to seek a consensus target from town or else target MiX.

[jotheonah]

Also I’m sad that the flip killed my Jester gambit, but that does mean I’m free to explain some of the thinking behind it, though I guess I’d still rather not.

[Glooble]

Lyncher Doctor means no jester, which is nice. Kills several theories I had yesterday about why certain people were behaving the way they were. And while losing a doctor sucks, he was realistically probably not going to be the most helpful doctor anyway. And we avoided the incredibly awkward scenario of having both him and his victim still around in LyLo. Not sure why he lied about his role though.


PPE 2

[Glooble]

I support targeting MiX.

[MiX]

If promoter is scum, I was either targeted (A) because MiX is town and scum thought I couldn’t resist challenging him, (B) because MiX is scum and scum thought I wouldn’t dare challenge him, or (C) because everyone has such a scumread on me that it doesn’t matter who I challenge because I’ll lose.

(C)'s the one that makes the most amount of sense here, given that if (B) then (C)'s still important in case you randomly pick another scum. This is especially true because Traitor exists. (A) sounds foolish, but given that you're thinking about (B) then (A) might actually be something scum think.

Can you tell I like those letters?

Lyncher Doctor means no jester, which is nice. Kills several theories I had yesterday about why certain people were behaving the way they were. And while losing a doctor sucks, he was realistically probably not going to be the most helpful doctor anyway. And we avoided the incredibly awkward scenario of having both him and his victim still around in LyLo. Not sure why he lied about his role though.

Bodyguard is the best fakeclaim for Lyncher, and I have no idea who wouldn't kill him after a Lyncher claim.

I support targeting MiX.

Do you think scum's thinking about (B) here?

[Glooble]

Let's face it, if it was (A) scum would have been smarter to target me. You voted for several people yesterday and seemed willing to move your vote to get a lynch. I parked my vote on MiX and kept trying to corall people back to him.

OTOH, I seem to have an uncanny ability to not be remembered by anyone.

[Glooble]

Bodyguard is the best fakeclaim for Lyncher, and I have no idea who wouldn't kill him after a Lyncher claim.

Because he's also a doctor?

[Glooble]

Having a lyncher isn't really a bad thing once we know who they are. And having a doctor is great. If Joseph had claimed Lyncher doctor, I definitely would have moved my vote to protect him.

[MiX]

Bodyguard is the best fakeclaim for Lyncher, and I have no idea who wouldn't kill him after a Lyncher claim.

Because he's also a doctor?

Still, odds are everyone else being voted is town. Why risk it? We would need to lynch him eventually, better there than later, especially with plurality lynch.

Let's face it, if it was (A) scum would have been smarter to target me. You voted for several people yesterday and seemed willing to move your vote to get a lynch. I parked my vote on MiX and kept trying to corall people back to him.

OTOH, I seem to have an uncanny ability to not be remembered by anyone.

I think making you gladiator would basically out promoter as scum, thus outing you as town. Which is okay for scum if you pick me, but I doubt you would just pick me, that's exactly what scum would be thinking about.

[jotheonah]

Scum would be less likely to nightkill a bodyguard than a full doc since a successful bodyguarding doesn't actually change the kill count. I assume that was the reasoning there.

[jotheonah]

I can't really tell if there's anything in that post I need to respond to, but I will say if I were the gladiator and it were day 2, I would be happy to make it you and me, MiX.

This seems scummy, like you're basically asking to be setup together.... if you're town and there's a scum promoter, then they'll see this

Best to hide reads so as to not help the possible scum promoter

This is only a problem if MiX is town and neither of us is lynched today.

Why are you setting this possibility aside? You could be wrong and your wagon might not go anywhere, so why do you think this is rare?

The worst scum can do if they have a promoter is target one of us. Then it’s up to us to decide if we want to call out each other. The very fact that we’ve had this conversation makes me less likely to target MiX in that scenario. So there’s a lot of layers of WIFOM. I honestly don’t think it’s a big deal.

For those that forgot, I basically asked for this yesterday, and laid out the dilemma.

[jotheonah]

Anyway, MiX, you have 72 hours to convince me not to challenge you.

Everyone else, you have 72 hours to weigh in, although I reserve the right to jump the gun on this.

Also, if we can get a lynch in before 72 hours have passed then we don't have to do this. But if I don't like the leading candidate (unless it's me), I basically have a veto, which is fun.

[arishipshape]

If Jotheonah challenges MiX, I'm voting Jotheonah.

[jotheonah]

(D) Scum promoter picked me because I've been playing this one a little trollish and they thought I would be the most likely to go maverick and challenge someone without consulting the larger town.

[Glooble]

(D) Scum promoter picked me because I've been playing this one a little trollish and they thought I would be the most likely to go maverick and challenge someone without consulting the larger town.

I sort of assumed that was your secret plan, tbh.

[MiX]

If Jotheonah challenges MiX, I'm voting Jotheonah.

As much as I like this defence...why do you think I'm townier than joth?

(D) Scum promoter picked me because I've been playing this one a little trollish and they thought I would be the most likely to go maverick and challenge someone without consulting the larger town.

That only works if scum don't know you...kinda... Well it worked, I suppose.

[chairs]

If Jotheonah challenges MiX, I'm voting Jotheonah.

[MiX]

If Jotheonah challenges MiX, I'm voting Jotheonah.

As much as I like this defence...why do you think I'm townier than joth?

[jotheonah]

This is actually very helpful. Others, feel free to weigh in with which way you would vote in that scenario.

Also: if not MiX, who should I challenge?

[MiX]

This is actually very helpful. Others, feel free to weigh in with which way you would vote in that scenario.

Also: if not MiX, who should I challenge?

I would vote myself, I think. Given I'm VT, that's probably the safest play.

I don't have major acumreads (used to be mcmc...) but I think Swan or EFHW would be good picks. Of course, it's best if we discuss it first.

[Glooble]

This is actually very helpful. Others, feel free to weigh in with which way you would vote in that scenario.

Also: if not MiX, who should I challenge?

I would vote MiX in that scenario.

In fact, why wait?

vote: MiX


I will start a day 1 reread at lunch though and see if I can identify another option.

[LaLight]

Vote Count 2.1

LaLight has a day off and this is why he woke up at 5:30 pm. Hopefully not dead, although how can he be sure everything that goes on right now isn't just his near death hallucinations? What if LaLight survives only if town wins in this game?

Who knows?

MiX (1): Glooble
Not voting (11): arishipshape, DatSwan, chairs, jotheonah, MiX, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, faust, SpaceAnemone, EFHW


With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 2 ends 10th of May, 8:30 am FT.

[jotheonah]

I would vote myself, I think. Given I'm VT, that's probably the safest play.

Bold move, Cotton.

[A Drowned Kernel]

If you pick MiX, I would vote MiX. But I don't think you should pick MiX, because I have a feeling that you're both town.

I still think Galz would be a good lynch, so I think that's who you should pick.

vote: Galz

[A Drowned Kernel]

Actually, scratch that, I would vote for joth in that unfortunate scenario. But joth, you should really not pick MiX.

[EFHW]

I wouldn't vote. What happens if no one votes?

[EFHW]

I wouldn't vote. What happens if no one votes?

Probably random. So I'd vote MiX bc vt, like he said.

Good with Galz, ari.

[MiX]

I wouldn't vote. What happens if no one votes?

Probably random. So I'd vote MiX bc vt, like he said.

Good with Galz, ari.

Glooble's vote would probably mean I would die. Why Galz?

[jotheonah]

Actually, scratch that, I would vote for joth in that unfortunate scenario. But joth, you should really not pick MiX.

Just out of curiosity, why not?

[faust]

If Jotheonah challenges MiX, I'm voting Jotheonah.

[faust]

Vote: Glooble

[MiX]

Vote: Glooble

Don't you think it's a bit too...direct? Straightforward? I do. I think Glooble's just tunnelling town...what do you think?

[faust]

I mean, MiX is VT, but Glooble also basically claimed VT, albeit in a much shadier fashion:

Lyncher Doctor means no jester, which is nice. Kills several theories I had yesterday about why certain people were behaving the way they were.

[faust]

Vote: Glooble

Don't you think it's a bit too...direct? Straightforward? I do. I think Glooble's just tunnelling town...what do you think?

I don't, obviously. I do think joth is townier. He's also on the shortlist for possible Lyncher targets, so.

[MiX]

I mean, MiX is VT, but Glooble also basically claimed VT, albeit in a much shadier fashion:

Lyncher Doctor means no jester, which is nice. Kills several theories I had yesterday about why certain people were behaving the way they were.

Why can't that post be made as Bodyguard?

Vote: Glooble

Don't you think it's a bit too...direct? Straightforward? I do. I think Glooble's just tunnelling town...what do you think?

I don't, obviously. I do think joth is townier. He's also on the shortlist for possible Lyncher targets, so.

I have a feeling I know who Lynchee is. Should we talk about it?

[chairs]

I would vote myself, I think. Given I'm VT, that's probably the safest play.

Bold move, Cotton.

Welp there goes me voting jotheonah over mix.

vote: mix

[faust]

I mean, MiX is VT, but Glooble also basically claimed VT, albeit in a much shadier fashion:

Lyncher Doctor means no jester, which is nice. Kills several theories I had yesterday about why certain people were behaving the way they were.

Why can't that post be made as Bodyguard?

It can. It's not a straight up VT claim, but he does clearly state that he's not one of our investigative roles, which... why would town ever do that?

[faust]

I would vote myself, I think. Given I'm VT, that's probably the safest play.

Bold move, Cotton.

Welp there goes me voting jotheonah over mix.

vote: mix

You can still vote other people, you know.

[MiX]

I would vote myself, I think. Given I'm VT, that's probably the safest play.

Bold move, Cotton.

Welp there goes me voting jotheonah over mix.

vote: mix

He hasn't gladiatored me yet...

PPE 1: lol, yes

[jotheonah]

I don't like this line from faust one bit.

Stating that you'd vote for me in the showdown? Sure.

Stating that you'd vote for me in the showdown and then voting for the only person who's voiced support for me? Kind of feels like you're trying to intimidate others into falling in line.

[faust]

Stating that you'd vote for me in the showdown and then voting for the only person who's voiced support for me? Kind of feels like you're trying to intimidate others into falling in line.

It's a tried and trusted strategy.

But seriously, I mean you know Glooble better than I do. Can you look at his pseudoclaim and say he'd be this thoughtless as town?

[faust]

Also I've stated that I think you're town. I'd just prefer if you targeted someone scummy.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Actually, scratch that, I would vote for joth in that unfortunate scenario. But joth, you should really not pick MiX.

Just out of curiosity, why not?

I reread some of his posts and I'm convinced he's town.

[Glooble]

Honestly, faust, it didn't even occur to me that that comment gave any information away. I've never played a grid-style semi-open setup before.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I have a feeling I know who Lynchee is. Should we talk about it?

No.

[jotheonah]

Stating that you'd vote for me in the showdown and then voting for the only person who's voiced support for me? Kind of feels like you're trying to intimidate others into falling in line.

It's a tried and trusted strategy.

But seriously, I mean you know Glooble better than I do. Can you look at his pseudoclaim and say he'd be this thoughtless as town?

I'm pretty sure Glooble is town here. I wouldn't have interpreted that as a claim either.

[jotheonah]

Also I've stated that I think you're town. I'd just prefer if you targeted someone scummy.

I don't understand where everyone is getting this strong town read on MiX!

How do people feel about ari?

[gkrieg13]

Well at least that means we don't have a jester.

[Glooble]

Well at least that means we don't have a jester.

We've established this.

[Galzria]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

My problem with what Joth is doing here is that he’s essentially out sourcing to find out who he can beat. He’s not looking to choose the player he most likely thinks is scum (something town would be aiming for) but is instead trying to figure out which player he can win against. This is an incredibly scummy approach. If Joth is town, his concern should be putting scum into a 50/50 and then arguing why we should lynch the other person - not petitioning to find out who he can challenge and win against (which gives him the right to cherry pick town players as scum).

[Glooble]

mcmcsalot was definitely town, and is an experienced player, so let's look at his reads, shall we?

He started the case on MiX, based on the belief that MiX was signaling to the traitor. Also, this post, which I don't understand well enough to summarize:

MiX am I correct you have not been mafia yet on this forum, only town and sk.

MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation. He is pushing and doing things that are anti town but also not from some misguided town perspective. This yea I was wrong is very sloppy and not something town MiX is likely to do (make such a poor play in the first place, not the fact that he admitted it was a poor play)

Also I really think he’s scum trying to prompt and provide a method of he traitor to claim promoter and reveal himself to mafia. Which I think people don’t understand how good of a move that is for the mafia team.

Space is towny, so is galz and chairs. I agree with joth about aroshapes post being scummy but I still find him overall towny, maybe I need to reread ari.

Later says he thinks ari is towny and joth slightly scummy for pushing ari.

Then he gets drunk and says Swan is an IC. Make of that what you will.

After the DAMA he votes for Space for wording a post in a confusing (misleading?) way. Note he previously said he found Space towny. I don't buy his argument re: that particular post really at all. It felt to me very in line with Space's town meta.

He analyzes all the votes on MiX and ADK, chides MiX for claiming VT, then says he would vote ADK over ari.

Finally he changes his vote to ADK and his final contribution is this quote, which for the record I don't really understand:

The scrambling is being done by a limited number of people which means MiX is town and scum isn’t helping us consolidate anywhere else

[chairs]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

My problem with what Joth is doing here is that he’s essentially out sourcing to find out who he can beat. He’s not looking to choose the player he most likely thinks is scum (something town would be aiming for) but is instead trying to figure out which player he can win against. This is an incredibly scummy approach. If Joth is town, his concern should be putting scum into a 50/50 and then arguing why we should lynch the other person - not petitioning to find out who he can challenge and win against (which gives him the right to cherry pick town players as scum).

Nailed it. I can’t believe that was staring me in the face and all I could do was go “Joth feels wrong” but couldn’t figure out what was bothering me.

[Glooble]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

Can't currently think of a reason you would say this and not tell us what post you're referring to, given that scum already knows Mix's alignment.

[MiX]

What did you learn from this?

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

My problem with what Joth is doing here is that he’s essentially out sourcing to find out who he can beat. He’s not looking to choose the player he most likely thinks is scum (something town would be aiming for) but is instead trying to figure out which player he can win against. This is an incredibly scummy approach. If Joth is town, his concern should be putting scum into a 50/50 and then arguing why we should lynch the other person - not petitioning to find out who he can challenge and win against (which gives him the right to cherry pick town players as scum).

Nailed it. I can’t believe that was staring me in the face and all I could do was go “Joth feels wrong” but couldn’t figure out what was bothering me.

I could quote Galzria's post directly, but you're such a nice person to quote...what makes you two think that joth is picking "scummy" players instead of "scum" players? That is, players that'll get lynched instead of scum?

[jotheonah]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

My problem with what Joth is doing here is that he’s essentially out sourcing to find out who he can beat. He’s not looking to choose the player he most likely thinks is scum (something town would be aiming for) but is instead trying to figure out which player he can win against. This is an incredibly scummy approach. If Joth is town, his concern should be putting scum into a 50/50 and then arguing why we should lynch the other person - not petitioning to find out who he can challenge and win against (which gives him the right to cherry pick town players as scum).

This is dumb.

I mean, it's not prima facie dumb, but like, my scummiest player read is MiX. I've made this extremely clear. And yet, how is it pro-town for me to choose MiX if that's just going to result in me being lynched? It isn't. In order to use this in a pro-town way, my first priority actually is, and should be, to survive it. Because I'm the only person I know with 100 percent certainty is town. Any course of action that doesn't save me is a losing proposition, regardless of the scumminess of my target.

[MiX]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

My problem with what Joth is doing here is that he’s essentially out sourcing to find out who he can beat. He’s not looking to choose the player he most likely thinks is scum (something town would be aiming for) but is instead trying to figure out which player he can win against. This is an incredibly scummy approach. If Joth is town, his concern should be putting scum into a 50/50 and then arguing why we should lynch the other person - not petitioning to find out who he can challenge and win against (which gives him the right to cherry pick town players as scum).

This is dumb.

I mean, it's not prima facie dumb, but like, my scummiest player read is MiX. I've made this extremely clear. And yet, how is it pro-town for me to choose MiX if that's just going to result in me being lynched? It isn't. In order to use this in a pro-town way, my first priority actually is, and should be, to survive it. Because I'm the only person I know with 100 percent certainty is town. Any course of action that doesn't save me is a losing proposition, regardless of the scumminess of my target.

If you pick town, who cares who dies? You should only care about living if and only if you are sure you picked scum. And I'm town, so obviously you shouldn't pick me, not because I have more support than you, but because...I'm town.

Okay, now I'm interesting in hearing what posts I made confirmed me as town so I can be removed from the pool ASAP.

[jotheonah]

If people would rather I just challenge the player I find scummiest, I'll do it right now. Instead I'm being punished for soliciting town input? Like seriously what the heck? I've been asking everyone for alternative choices and all I get is crickets.

Vote: Galz

Boo.

[faust]

mcmcsalot was definitely town, and is an experienced player, so let's look at his reads, shall we?

So what did you learn?

[jotheonah]

Galz is basically saying this

"Joth is choosing a battle he thinks he can win before starting the battle. That's scummy! He should just choose a battle he wants to win and then try to win it even if he has no chance!"

That's basically the worst possible military strategy.

[MiX]

If people would rather I just challenge the player I find scummiest, I'll do it right now. Instead I'm being punished for soliciting town input? Like seriously what the heck? I've been asking everyone for alternative choices and all I get is crickets.

Vote: Galz

Boo.

I have to agree, I'm sincerely dissapointed in everyone who has simply said who they would vote for if you challenged me. Unfortunatly, I'm not sure who did that (or if anyone actually did that), so maybe I'm just wrong.

mcmcsalot was definitely town, and is an experienced player, so let's look at his reads, shall we?

So what did you learn?

You can't just use my words!

Galz is basically saying this

"Joth is choosing a battle he thinks he can win before starting the battle. That's scummy! He should just choose a battle he wants to win and then try to win it even if he has no chance!"

That's basically the worst possible military strategy.

You'll always have a chance to win versus scum. Or against anyone that's scummy, really. I have 4+ players that I would kill over you and they aren't all scum. Believe in your ICness.

[faust]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

My problem with what Joth is doing here is that he’s essentially out sourcing to find out who he can beat. He’s not looking to choose the player he most likely thinks is scum (something town would be aiming for) but is instead trying to figure out which player he can win against. This is an incredibly scummy approach. If Joth is town, his concern should be putting scum into a 50/50 and then arguing why we should lynch the other person - not petitioning to find out who he can challenge and win against (which gives him the right to cherry pick town players as scum).

This is dumb.

I mean, it's not prima facie dumb, but like, my scummiest player read is MiX. I've made this extremely clear. And yet, how is it pro-town for me to choose MiX if that's just going to result in me being lynched? It isn't. In order to use this in a pro-town way, my first priority actually is, and should be, to survive it. Because I'm the only person I know with 100 percent certainty is town. Any course of action that doesn't save me is a losing proposition, regardless of the scumminess of my target.

This is perfectly reasonable. I don't think Galz is onto anything there.

[Glooble]

mcmcsalot was definitely town, and is an experienced player, so let's look at his reads, shall we?

So what did you learn?

My reads changed somewhat based on mcmc's reads. Mostly in the direction of finding players I had previously found scummy to be slightly less scummy. Don't really want to say more for previously articulated reasons, but I wanted to draw everyone's attention to his reads so they could draw their own conclusions without doing the work of sifting through all of that themselves.

I would love if someone could explain what mcmc meant by his final post, and why it was enough for him to unvote the player he'd been tunneling all day. Because it's a line of thinking I genuinely don't understand.

[jotheonah]

Alright, I have been jumping the gun here by not actually presenting my case on MiX, so I'm going to do my best to do that.

1) Lots and lots of shameless buddying, which feels off-meta for MiX who is normally a little more petulant and combative (no offense). Yesterday he was seriously buddying ari, today it's me.

2) His initial reaction to his wagon yesterday, flailing around to find another lynch without really presenting a scum case on anyone, advocating essentially for a lurker lynch, felt very scummy to me.

3) I don't find his VT claim remotely vindicating. As far as I'm concerned, it should be the default claim for caught scum. Joseph claimed a powerful role and it didn't save him. MiX claimed VT and it did. He's a smart player and sometimes an orthogonal thinker, he could have figured out how that would go.

4) I am finding his play today consistent with a narrative where scum promoter chose me, expecting me to choose a non-MiX target based on the post I quoted earlier where I basically said I wouldn't choose MiX (with Mix's buddying as a back-up plan to urge this along).

[A Drowned Kernel]

Who's your second choice, after mix?

[MiX]

Alright, I have been jumping the gun here by not actually presenting my case on MiX, so I'm going to do my best to do that.

1) Lots and lots of shameless buddying, which feels off-meta for MiX who is normally a little more petulant and combative (no offense). Yesterday he was seriously buddying ari, today it's me.

2) His initial reaction to his wagon yesterday, flailing around to find another lynch without really presenting a scum case on anyone, advocating essentially for a lurker lynch, felt very scummy to me.

3) I don't find his VT claim remotely vindicating. As far as I'm concerned, it should be the default claim for caught scum. Joseph claimed a powerful role and it didn't save him. MiX claimed VT and it did. He's a smart player and sometimes an orthogonal thinker, he could have figured out how that would go.

4) I am finding his play today consistent with a narrative where scum promoter chose me, expecting me to choose a non-MiX target based on the post I quoted earlier where I basically said I wouldn't choose MiX (with Mix's buddying as a back-up plan to urge this along).

1) I buddied ari D1 when I was town too. Also, I promised I would change my agressive ways, and this is that result.

2) Wouldn't it be much easier for me to present a case...?

3) This is a funny scenario, but as scum, I represent a whole team: I can't just do crazy gambits, especially in my first game, I would feel like I betrayed my own team if I failled. Claiming VT actually breaks every meta because it's incredibly anti-town and I would never do it...but I did. Also I technically lived because of it, so in the context of this game (and hindsight 20/20) it was acceptable. I hope.

4) Why would I buddy you...? Much easier for me to double down on my scumread and face you head on.

Other than the first, these are actually bad defenses...oh well, why should I care? They're the best here.

[faust]

4) I am finding his play today consistent with a narrative where scum promoter chose me, expecting me to choose a non-MiX target based on the post I quoted earlier where I basically said I wouldn't choose MiX (with Mix's buddying as a back-up plan to urge this along).

I disagree with other parts, but here I strongly feel the confirmation bias. Surely if scum wanted to avoid MiX being challenged, there would be way better targets than you.

[faust]

Also I don't know about you guys, but I feel like MiX is always buddying me.

[MiX]

4) I am finding his play today consistent with a narrative where scum promoter chose me, expecting me to choose a non-MiX target based on the post I quoted earlier where I basically said I wouldn't choose MiX (with Mix's buddying as a back-up plan to urge this along).

I disagree with other parts, but here I strongly feel the confirmation bias. Surely if scum wanted to avoid MiX being challenged, there would be way better targets than you.

I also felt like saying this, but joth is one of the few picks that don't out promoter as scum.

Also I don't know about you guys, but I feel like MiX is always buddying me.

Every time, all the time baby!

Vote: faust

[MiX]

No, but seriously, Vote: Galzria untill he answers my question. Which is also directed at chairs, by the way, but I think Galzria is scummier.

[jotheonah]

Who's your second choice, after mix?

Ari, although Galzria is creeping up.

[Galzria]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

Can't currently think of a reason you would say this and not tell us what post you're referring to, given that scum already knows Mix's alignment.

Ok, fine.

If promoter is scum, I was either targeted (A) because MiX is town and scum thought I couldn’t resist challenging him, (B) because MiX is scum and scum thought I wouldn’t dare challenge him, or (C) because everyone has such a scumread on me that it doesn’t matter who I challenge because I’ll lose.

(C)'s the one that makes the most amount of sense here, given that if (B) then (C)'s still important in case you randomly pick another scum. This is especially true because Traitor exists. (A) sounds foolish, but given that you're thinking about (B) then (A) might actually be something scum think.

Can you tell I like those letters?

Lyncher Doctor means no jester, which is nice. Kills several theories I had yesterday about why certain people were behaving the way they were. And while losing a doctor sucks, he was realistically probably not going to be the most helpful doctor anyway. And we avoided the incredibly awkward scenario of having both him and his victim still around in LyLo. Not sure why he lied about his role though.

Bodyguard is the best fakeclaim for Lyncher, and I have no idea who wouldn't kill him after a Lyncher claim.

I support targeting MiX.

Do you think scum's thinking about (B) here?

I bolded the part above that’s relevant. Scum doesn’t make that mistaken point as they know that there is NOT, in fact, a Traitor, as we’re in BC/BD, not AD/BD - something I myself can validate as the Town Promoter.

With Joseph’s flip, the setup is:

5 VT
Vengeful Townie
Psychologist
Tracker
Town Promoter
Semi-Elite Body Guard
Mafia Godfather
2 Mafia Goons
Lyncher Doctor

I promoted Joth last night because I believed he was scum from D1. My choices were between anybody on the horrible Joseph wagon, or one of my own scum reads. I decided it was too random to just pick one of the people on Joseph, so stuck with my gut on Joth.

If I were to pick for Joth, I would make him choose between {ADK, Faust, Glooble}.

[MiX]

Knew it. Wait you're not Glooble...oh dear.

Notice how joth's sentence starts with "If promoter is scum", I've been over this when i voted faust in D1 because Joseph's slip wasn't actually a slip because of it (and Joseph wasn't even scum so he wouldn't know it). Why did you claim?

Also, we're in B. There's no other possible setup. I like Galzria's bold claim...I retract townpoints from Glooble now. But Galzria's scum for not knowing it's setup B with 100% guarantee.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

Can't currently think of a reason you would say this and not tell us what post you're referring to, given that scum already knows Mix's alignment.

Ok, fine.

If promoter is scum, I was either targeted (A) because MiX is town and scum thought I couldn’t resist challenging him, (B) because MiX is scum and scum thought I wouldn’t dare challenge him, or (C) because everyone has such a scumread on me that it doesn’t matter who I challenge because I’ll lose.

(C)'s the one that makes the most amount of sense here, given that if (B) then (C)'s still important in case you randomly pick another scum. This is especially true because Traitor exists. (A) sounds foolish, but given that you're thinking about (B) then (A) might actually be something scum think.

Can you tell I like those letters?

Lyncher Doctor means no jester, which is nice. Kills several theories I had yesterday about why certain people were behaving the way they were. And while losing a doctor sucks, he was realistically probably not going to be the most helpful doctor anyway. And we avoided the incredibly awkward scenario of having both him and his victim still around in LyLo. Not sure why he lied about his role though.

Bodyguard is the best fakeclaim for Lyncher, and I have no idea who wouldn't kill him after a Lyncher claim.

I support targeting MiX.

Do you think scum's thinking about (B) here?

I bolded the part above that’s relevant. Scum doesn’t make that mistaken point as they know that there is NOT, in fact, a Traitor, as we’re in BC/BD, not AD/BD - something I myself can validate as the Town Promoter.

With Joseph’s flip, the setup is:

5 VT
Vengeful Townie
Psychologist
Tracker
Town Promoter
Semi-Elite Body Guard
Mafia Godfather
2 Mafia Goons
Lyncher Doctor

I promoted Joth last night because I believed he was scum from D1. My choices were between anybody on the horrible Joseph wagon, or one of my own scum reads. I decided it was too random to just pick one of the people on Joseph, so stuck with my gut on Joth.

If I were to pick for Joth, I would make him choose between {ADK, Faust, Glooble}.

I'm inclined to believe this claim. But what was so horrible about the Joseph wagon?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Knew it. Wait you're not Glooble...oh dear.

Notice how joth's sentence starts with "If promoter is scum", I've been over this when i voted faust in D1 because Joseph's slip wasn't actually a slip because of it (and Joseph wasn't even scum so he wouldn't know it). Why did you claim?

Also, we're in B. There's no other possible setup. I like Galzria's bold claim...I retract townpoints from Glooble now. But Galzria's scum for not knowing it's setup B with 100% guarantee.

Can you explain that last sentence?

[jotheonah]

I am so close to just challenging Galz right now.

If I were to pick for Joth, I would make him choose between {ADK, Faust, Glooble}.

Literally my top three town reads.

[jotheonah]

I'm inclined to believe this claim. But what was so horrible about the Joseph wagon?

I believe the part where he's promoter. But maybe not the part where he's town...

[Galzria]

Knew it. Wait you're not Glooble...oh dear.

Notice how joth's sentence starts with "If promoter is scum", I've been over this when i voted faust in D1 because Joseph's slip wasn't actually a slip because of it (and Joseph wasn't even scum so he wouldn't know it). Why did you claim?

Also, we're in B. There's no other possible setup. I like Galzria's bold claim...I retract townpoints from Glooble now. But Galzria's scum for not knowing it's setup B with 100% guarantee.

Of course I did. I never had any intention of you being lynched. I did what Faust was trying to do, just better. Instead of making a bad case (or no case at all) on a player to see who “climbs aboard”, I made a much more reasonable case based on a lack of general information knowing full well that it’s exactly the sort of thing scum likes to promote because of it’s inherent reasonability.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm inclined to believe this claim. But what was so horrible about the Joseph wagon?

I believe the part where he's promoter. But maybe not the part where he's town...

Why on earth would scum promoter claim right now?

[Galzria]

I am so close to just challenging Galz right now.

If I were to pick for Joth, I would make him choose between {ADK, Faust, Glooble}.

Literally my top three town reads.

Surprise!

Challenge me. Now.

[jotheonah]

I'm inclined to believe this claim. But what was so horrible about the Joseph wagon?

I believe the part where he's promoter. But maybe not the part where he's town...

Why on earth would scum promoter claim right now?

Why wouldn't they?

[jotheonah]

I am so close to just challenging Galz right now.

If I were to pick for Joth, I would make him choose between {ADK, Faust, Glooble}.

Literally my top three town reads.

Surprise!

Challenge me. Now.

Well this is just very scummy, right?

[MiX]

Knew it. Wait you're not Glooble...oh dear.

Notice how joth's sentence starts with "If promoter is scum", I've been over this when i voted faust in D1 because Joseph's slip wasn't actually a slip because of it (and Joseph wasn't even scum so he wouldn't know it). Why did you claim?

Also, we're in B. There's no other possible setup. I like Galzria's bold claim...I retract townpoints from Glooble now. But Galzria's scum for not knowing it's setup B with 100% guarantee.

Can you explain that last sentence?

What part of it?

Knew it. Wait you're not Glooble...oh dear.

Notice how joth's sentence starts with "If promoter is scum", I've been over this when i voted faust in D1 because Joseph's slip wasn't actually a slip because of it (and Joseph wasn't even scum so he wouldn't know it). Why did you claim?

Also, we're in B. There's no other possible setup. I like Galzria's bold claim...I retract townpoints from Glooble now. But Galzria's scum for not knowing it's setup B with 100% guarantee.

Of course I did. I never had any intention of you being lynched. I did what Faust was trying to do, just better. Instead of making a bad case (or no case at all) on a player to see who “climbs aboard”, I made a much more reasonable case based on a lack of general information knowing full well that it’s exactly the sort of thing scum likes to promote because of it’s inherent reasonability.

"Of course I did" is an answer to what? What did you do that is so much better than what faust did? Did you answer my previous question of why you think joth's trying to see who he can win against instead of who's scum?

PPE 2

[Galzria]

I am so close to just challenging Galz right now.

If I were to pick for Joth, I would make him choose between {ADK, Faust, Glooble}.

Literally my top three town reads.

Surprise!

Challenge me. Now.

Well this is just very scummy, right?

Why are you still seeking opinions? Need to know if you can win?

[MiX]

Why are you still seeking opinions? Need to know if you can win?

We have 3 days (well, mostly 2, because doing it last second might backfire), why do you want to be challenged right now? Do you think joth's scum?

[jotheonah]

I am so close to just challenging Galz right now.

If I were to pick for Joth, I would make him choose between {ADK, Faust, Glooble}.

Literally my top three town reads.

Surprise!

Challenge me. Now.

Well this is just very scummy, right?

Why are you still seeking opinions? Need to know if you can win?

You're not going to goad me into this. There's still a reasonable chance you are misguided town. And if you are scum, the last thing I want to do is the thing you want me to do.

[Galzria]

Knew it. Wait you're not Glooble...oh dear.

Notice how joth's sentence starts with "If promoter is scum", I've been over this when i voted faust in D1 because Joseph's slip wasn't actually a slip because of it (and Joseph wasn't even scum so he wouldn't know it). Why did you claim?

Also, we're in B. There's no other possible setup. I like Galzria's bold claim...I retract townpoints from Glooble now. But Galzria's scum for not knowing it's setup B with 100% guarantee.

Can you explain that last sentence?

What part of it?

Knew it. Wait you're not Glooble...oh dear.

Notice how joth's sentence starts with "If promoter is scum", I've been over this when i voted faust in D1 because Joseph's slip wasn't actually a slip because of it (and Joseph wasn't even scum so he wouldn't know it). Why did you claim?

Also, we're in B. There's no other possible setup. I like Galzria's bold claim...I retract townpoints from Glooble now. But Galzria's scum for not knowing it's setup B with 100% guarantee.

Of course I did. I never had any intention of you being lynched. I did what Faust was trying to do, just better. Instead of making a bad case (or no case at all) on a player to see who “climbs aboard”, I made a much more reasonable case based on a lack of general information knowing full well that it’s exactly the sort of thing scum likes to promote because of it’s inherent reasonability.

"Of course I did" is an answer to what? What did you do that is so much better than what faust did? Did you answer my previous question of why you think joth's trying to see who he can win against instead of who's scum?

PPE 2

“Of course I knew we were in B”.

What’s to answer? He’s literally been soliciting opinions on who would vote for who over himself instead of scum hunting and making his own choices.

[jotheonah]

@Galz if you were town, you would be trying to talk me into targeting one of your other scum reads (the mislynch wishlist you posted before) rather than trying to goad me into targeting you.

[Galzria]

Why are you still seeking opinions? Need to know if you can win?

We have 3 days (well, mostly 2, because doing it last second might backfire), why do you want to be challenged right now? Do you think joth's scum?

Yes. I’ve stated this.

[Glooble]

vote: Galzria

[Galzria]

@Galz if you were town, you would be trying to talk me into targeting one of your other scum reads (the mislynch wishlist you posted before) rather than trying to goad me into targeting you.

A) I think you’re scum.

B) You will target the person you think you can win against regardless.

C) My opinions on who you should target are stated. Unsurprisingly, you won’t consider the majority of that list.

[jotheonah]

@Galz if you were town, you would be trying to talk me into targeting one of your other scum reads (the mislynch wishlist you posted before) rather than trying to goad me into targeting you.

A) I think you’re scum.

B) You will target the person you think you can win against regardless.

C) My opinions on who you should target are stated. Unsurprisingly, you won’t consider the majority of that list.

You picked a list you knew I wouldn't consider!

[MiX]

“Of course I knew we were in B”.

Why did you say

I bolded the part above that’s relevant. Scum doesn’t make that mistaken point as they know that there is NOT, in fact, a Traitor, as we’re in BC/BD, not AD/BD - something I myself can validate as the Town Promoter.

(bolded mine)

Why are you still seeking opinions? Need to know if you can win?

We have 3 days (well, mostly 2, because doing it last second might backfire), why do you want to be challenged right now? Do you think joth's scum?

Yes. I’ve stated this.

Oh right you're Promoter. Sorry, dissassociated promoter with players so now it's hard to put them back together.

If you had to make a case on joth, what would you say? Even some bullet points would be helpful.

[Galzria]

I am so close to just challenging Galz right now.

If I were to pick for Joth, I would make him choose between {ADK, Faust, Glooble}.

Literally my top three town reads.

Surprise!

Challenge me. Now.

Well this is just very scummy, right?

Why are you still seeking opinions? Need to know if you can win?

You're not going to goad me into this. There's still a reasonable chance you are misguided town. And if you are scum, the last thing I want to do is the thing you want me to do.

Lol the last sentence doesn’t even parse from a town perspective. If I’m scum trying to get you to challenge me... then challenging me is exactly what you would want to do. Because I would be scum. Except I’m not. Which you know. Because you’re scum.

[jotheonah]

I never said I wasn't going to challenge you. I'm not going to challenge you right now.

You want me to challenge you before it's clear which one of us will win, because that gives you a 50/50 shot. Whereas if I wait until I have a clear idea of how everyone is going to vote I can choose to challenge you or not -- which gives you a 0% chance if I challenge you. So waiting is clearly pro-town and rushing is clearly pro-scum.

[jotheonah]

Everything about this feels like scum!Galz. Other people who have played a lot with Galz, agree/disagree?

[Galzria]

“Of course I knew we were in B”.

Why did you say

I bolded the part above that’s relevant. Scum doesn’t make that mistaken point as they know that there is NOT, in fact, a Traitor, as we’re in BC/BD, not AD/BD - something I myself can validate as the Town Promoter.

(bolded mine)

Why are you still seeking opinions? Need to know if you can win?

We have 3 days (well, mostly 2, because doing it last second might backfire), why do you want to be challenged right now? Do you think joth's scum?

Yes. I’ve stated this.

My point was that you stated (erroneously) that there WAS a traitor. This is not a mistake scum makes because we ARE in the “B” column, which scum (and I, as the town Promoter) know to be true. If you were scum you wouldn’t make that setup mistake there.

[jotheonah]

Galz, why didn't you claim yesterday?

[Glooble]

Everything about this feels like scum!Galz. Other people who have played a lot with Galz, agree/disagree?

I haven't played with scum!Galz, but I agree that he seems scummy as hell right now.

[jotheonah]

If Galz is scum promoter, then we do in fact have a traitor, which means his post about MiX would have required a lot of mental gymnastics to dream up. That's a point in favor of him being town.

[Galzria]

I never said I wasn't going to challenge you. I'm not going to challenge you right now.

You want me to challenge you before it's clear which one of us will win, because that gives you a 50/50 shot. Whereas if I wait until I have a clear idea of how everyone is going to vote I can choose to challenge you or not -- which gives you a 0% chance if I challenge you. So waiting is clearly pro-town and rushing is clearly pro-scum.

“I want to wait to challenge you before it’s clear which one of us will win, because at best I have a 50/50 shot. Whereas if I wait until I have a clear idea of how everyone is going to vote I can choose to challenge you or not - which gives you a 0% chance if I challenge you. So waiting is clearly pro-ME and rushing is clearly pro-YOU”

Fixed that for you.

[Galzria]

Galz, why didn't you claim yesterday?

Why should I have?

[jotheonah]

I never said I wasn't going to challenge you. I'm not going to challenge you right now.

You want me to challenge you before it's clear which one of us will win, because that gives you a 50/50 shot. Whereas if I wait until I have a clear idea of how everyone is going to vote I can choose to challenge you or not -- which gives you a 0% chance if I challenge you. So waiting is clearly pro-town and rushing is clearly pro-scum.

“I want to wait to challenge you before it’s clear which one of us will win, because at best I have a 50/50 shot. Whereas if I wait until I have a clear idea of how everyone is going to vote I can choose to challenge you or not - which gives you a 0% chance if I challenge you. So waiting is clearly pro-ME and rushing is clearly pro-YOU”

Fixed that for you.

Again, since I'm the only person I know to be 100% town, I fail to see the distinction.

[MiX]

“Of course I knew we were in B”.

Why did you say

I bolded the part above that’s relevant. Scum doesn’t make that mistaken point as they know that there is NOT, in fact, a Traitor, as we’re in BC/BD, not AD/BD - something I myself can validate as the Town Promoter.

(bolded mine)

Why are you still seeking opinions? Need to know if you can win?

We have 3 days (well, mostly 2, because doing it last second might backfire), why do you want to be challenged right now? Do you think joth's scum?

Yes. I’ve stated this.

My point was that you stated (erroneously) that there WAS a traitor. This is not a mistake scum makes because we ARE in the “B” column, which scum (and I, as the town Promoter) know to be true. If you were scum you wouldn’t make that setup mistake there.

It appears you have missed what's bolded? Why did you say "as we’re in BC/BD, not AD/BD"?

Oh, I just realized what logic you're using. Huh. Sadly it's useless now but I believe this means you've thought about the setup.

If Galz is scum promoter, then we do in fact have a traitor, which means his post about MiX would have required a lot of mental gymnastics to dream up. That's a point in favor of him being town.

Does it? Seems simple for him to do this as traitor: he has every intention in townreading me, because that's the new hip wave of today, right?

I never said I wasn't going to challenge you. I'm not going to challenge you right now.

You want me to challenge you before it's clear which one of us will win, because that gives you a 50/50 shot. Whereas if I wait until I have a clear idea of how everyone is going to vote I can choose to challenge you or not -- which gives you a 0% chance if I challenge you. So waiting is clearly pro-town and rushing is clearly pro-scum.

“I want to wait to challenge you before it’s clear which one of us will win, because at best I have a 50/50 shot. Whereas if I wait until I have a clear idea of how everyone is going to vote I can choose to challenge you or not - which gives you a 0% chance if I challenge you. So waiting is clearly pro-ME and rushing is clearly pro-YOU”

Fixed that for you.

Pro-him will always be more pro-town than pro-you from his perspective.

PPE 1: Oh my, it's like you're already locked in a 1v1.

[Glooble]

I think we need to wait for more people to get online and weigh in.

[jotheonah]

I think we need to wait for more people to get online and weigh in.

Oh I agree, but I think watching Galz dig his own grave is a fun activity while we're waiting.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm inclined to believe this claim. But what was so horrible about the Joseph wagon?

I believe the part where he's promoter. But maybe not the part where he's town...

Why on earth would scum promoter claim right now?

Why wouldn't they?

1) If mix is town there's no motivation for them to claim and stop you from picking him 2) If mix is scum this irrevocably ties galz and mix together, and if one of them is caught the other one does. It's a huge risk just to stop you from picking mix, when it's pretty clear that if you did pick mix, you would be the one lynched anyway.

[faust]

Every time, all the time baby!

Vote: faust

I thought we had something special!

[A Drowned Kernel]

But Galzria's scum for not knowing it's setup B with 100% guarantee.

Can you explain that last sentence?

What part of it?

Where does Galz display uncertainty about the setup?

[Galzria]

I never said I wasn't going to challenge you. I'm not going to challenge you right now.

You want me to challenge you before it's clear which one of us will win, because that gives you a 50/50 shot. Whereas if I wait until I have a clear idea of how everyone is going to vote I can choose to challenge you or not -- which gives you a 0% chance if I challenge you. So waiting is clearly pro-town and rushing is clearly pro-scum.

“I want to wait to challenge you before it’s clear which one of us will win, because at best I have a 50/50 shot. Whereas if I wait until I have a clear idea of how everyone is going to vote I can choose to challenge you or not - which gives you a 0% chance if I challenge you. So waiting is clearly pro-ME and rushing is clearly pro-YOU”

Fixed that for you.

Again, since I'm the only person I know to be 100% town, I fail to see the distinction.

The distinction is in your lack of care regarding finding and challenging scum. If you were town, your absolute goal would be to NOT challenge town here, where town loses 100% of the time, but instead to challenge scum where, even if it’s not convenient for you, there’s a chance of us lynching correctly. You don’t care who you challenge, as long as you win. That isn’t pro-town, that’s pro-Joth, and that’s exactly the approach scum would take to try and appear townie.

You know what the best feature of a Vig is? It’s a 100% town controlled, no scum-input kill. You know what the downside is? It shorts our numbers. Being promoted as town is all the upside and none of the downside. But by making it a public poll all you’re trying to do is garner town favor by “acting” pro-town - instead of just being pro-town.

[faust]

I kinda get town vibes from Galzria, but it is important to remember that he has now a 50% a priori chance of being scum, much higher than anyone else.

[Galzria]

I think we need to wait for more people to get online and weigh in.

Oh I agree, but I think watching Galz dig his own grave is a fun activity while we're waiting.

A) No Graves here today

B) Of course you do, you’re scum.

[MiX]

But Galzria's scum for not knowing it's setup B with 100% guarantee.

Can you explain that last sentence?

What part of it?

Where does Galz display uncertainty about the setup?

He describes the setup in a way I was not familiar: He said "BC/BD" when talking about setup B: I was confused, but then I realized he was talking about the SQUARES BC and BD, which combined form setup B. So I was wrong.

I still want Galzria dead, mostly because I have no idea how joth can be scum here. Also I still think promoter's scum.

PPE 2

[A Drowned Kernel]

But Galzria's scum for not knowing it's setup B with 100% guarantee.

Can you explain that last sentence?

What part of it?

Where does Galz display uncertainty about the setup?

He describes the setup in a way I was not familiar: He said "BC/BD" when talking about setup B: I was confused, but then I realized he was talking about the SQUARES BC and BD, which combined form setup B. So I was wrong.

I still want Galzria dead, mostly because I have no idea how joth can be scum here. Also I still think promoter's scum.

PPE 2

joth hasn't challenged anyone yet.

[faust]

My choices were between anybody on the horrible Joseph wagon, or one of my own scum reads.

But... just how was the Joseph wagon horrible...? The guy was scum!

[A Drowned Kernel]

I kinda get town vibes from Galzria, but it is important to remember that he has now a 50% a priori chance of being scum, much higher than anyone else.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

[jotheonah]

The distinction is in your lack of care regarding finding and challenging scum. If you were town, your absolute goal would be to NOT challenge town here, where town loses 100% of the time, but instead to challenge scum where, even if it’s not convenient for you, there’s a chance of us lynching correctly. You don’t care who you challenge, as long as you win. That isn’t pro-town, that’s pro-Joth, and that’s exactly the approach scum would take to try and appear townie.

You know what the best feature of a Vig is? It’s a 100% town controlled, no scum-input kill. You know what the downside is? It shorts our numbers. Being promoted as town is all the upside and none of the downside. But by making it a public poll all you’re trying to do is garner town favor by “acting” pro-town - instead of just being pro-town.

I disagree. Especially because the outcome of me making the decision without town input would be to piss everyone off, further increasing the already-high chances they vote for me.

Look, if you had picked someone with a lot of town cred, they could have played it the way you're suggesting. Heck, you could have picked yourself if you wanted to play it that way and had some real skin in the game. But what did you think was going to happen when you picked someone who almost got lynched yesterday? In the position I'm in, using my challenge power without town input is suicide.

Also you are being disingenuous when you continually state that I don't care about finding scum. At no point have I suggested that I would use my power against someone I don't think is scum. The question is, out of the set of people I consider to be likely scum, which will I pick? And the answer is, duh, the one I can beat in a 1v1 vote-off. PPE 2

[A Drowned Kernel]

unvote btw

[Galzria]

My choices were between anybody on the horrible Joseph wagon, or one of my own scum reads.

But... just how was the Joseph wagon horrible...? The guy was scum!

He was a Doctor who had no negative utility towards town except wanting one particular VT townie lynched. Granted, he messed up and should’ve claimed his own role (but not his target) with the promise to work with town to find scum - so I can’t blame anybody but him for his own lynch - but lynching him after the claim was bad... even if the claim itself was bad.

[MiX]

My choices were between anybody on the horrible Joseph wagon, or one of my own scum reads.

But... just how was the Joseph wagon horrible...? The guy was scum!

He was a Doctor who had no negative utility towards town except wanting one particular VT townie lynched. Granted, he messed up and should’ve claimed his own role (but not his target) with the promise to work with town to find scum - so I can’t blame anybody but him for his own lynch - but lynching him after the claim was bad... even if the claim itself was bad.

Because of plutarility lynch we would kill him anyway. At least I would. I'm not sure why anyone would delay a lynch on anti-town if not to lynch confirmed scum: D1 lynches are usually on town anyway, knowing that it wouldn't be is good enough for me, and I suspect good enough for everyone else (although I'm not so sure about this).

[A Drowned Kernel]

My choices were between anybody on the horrible Joseph wagon, or one of my own scum reads.

But... just how was the Joseph wagon horrible...? The guy was scum!

He was a Doctor who had no negative utility towards town except wanting one particular VT townie lynched. Granted, he messed up and should’ve claimed his own role (but not his target) with the promise to work with town to find scum - so I can’t blame anybody but him for his own lynch - but lynching him after the claim was bad... even if the claim itself was bad.

Man you and I have a very different idea as to what constitutes "negative utility". I would have definitely lynched joseph after a lyncher claim.

[arishipshape]

Joth, I used to think you were scum. Then you got promoted and seem to be handling it wonderfully, especially with Galz's claim. You're keeping calm, cool, and logical. Galz, why did you claim?

[MiX]

Galz, why did you claim?

[jotheonah]

MiX, I am rereading the end of D1 and you were pretty adamant about me being scum. Then, at the beginning of today you're all about that town read on me. What's that about?

[Galzria]

The distinction is in your lack of care regarding finding and challenging scum. If you were town, your absolute goal would be to NOT challenge town here, where town loses 100% of the time, but instead to challenge scum where, even if it’s not convenient for you, there’s a chance of us lynching correctly. You don’t care who you challenge, as long as you win. That isn’t pro-town, that’s pro-Joth, and that’s exactly the approach scum would take to try and appear townie.

You know what the best feature of a Vig is? It’s a 100% town controlled, no scum-input kill. You know what the downside is? It shorts our numbers. Being promoted as town is all the upside and none of the downside. But by making it a public poll all you’re trying to do is garner town favor by “acting” pro-town - instead of just being pro-town.

I disagree. Especially because the outcome of me making the decision without town input would be to piss everyone off, further increasing the already-high chances they vote for me.

Look, if you had picked someone with a lot of town cred, they could have played it the way you're suggesting. Heck, you could have picked yourself if you wanted to play it that way and had some real skin in the game. But what did you think was going to happen when you picked someone who almost got lynched yesterday? In the position I'm in, using my challenge power without town input is suicide.

Also you are being disingenuous when you continually state that I don't care about finding scum. At no point have I suggested that I would use my power against someone I don't think is scum. The question is, out of the set of people I consider to be likely scum, which will I pick? And the answer is, duh, the one I can beat in a 1v1 vote-off. PPE 2

Why would I ever choose someone with town cred or that I thought was town? See, you’re STILL not looking at it from a town perspective. I laid it out D1: The best use of the entire role from a town perspective is to choose the player they MOST think to be scum, because even if they’re wrong, that player then gets to choose again. That’s two opportunities to force scum into being the 50/50 chance. Picking myself would be the absolute worst use of the role as there would then only be one opportunity to find scum (my own challenge choice). By choosing you, I’m essentially saying “Joth is my challenge choice”, except if I’m wrong YOU get to pick your own top choice.

I don’t give a damn about public opinion and neither should you (or any town). If we end up in a town-v-town challenge, regardless if you’re guaranteed to win or not, town loses. So IF you’re town then start acting like it instead of trying primarily to protect your own hide.

[arishipshape]

The distinction is in your lack of care regarding finding and challenging scum. If you were town, your absolute goal would be to NOT challenge town here, where town loses 100% of the time, but instead to challenge scum where, even if it’s not convenient for you, there’s a chance of us lynching correctly. You don’t care who you challenge, as long as you win. That isn’t pro-town, that’s pro-Joth, and that’s exactly the approach scum would take to try and appear townie.

You know what the best feature of a Vig is? It’s a 100% town controlled, no scum-input kill. You know what the downside is? It shorts our numbers. Being promoted as town is all the upside and none of the downside. But by making it a public poll all you’re trying to do is garner town favor by “acting” pro-town - instead of just being pro-town.

I disagree. Especially because the outcome of me making the decision without town input would be to piss everyone off, further increasing the already-high chances they vote for me.

Look, if you had picked someone with a lot of town cred, they could have played it the way you're suggesting. Heck, you could have picked yourself if you wanted to play it that way and had some real skin in the game. But what did you think was going to happen when you picked someone who almost got lynched yesterday? In the position I'm in, using my challenge power without town input is suicide.

Also you are being disingenuous when you continually state that I don't care about finding scum. At no point have I suggested that I would use my power against someone I don't think is scum. The question is, out of the set of people I consider to be likely scum, which will I pick? And the answer is, duh, the one I can beat in a 1v1 vote-off. PPE 2

Why would I ever choose someone with town cred or that I thought was town? See, you’re STILL not looking at it from a town perspective. I laid it out D1: The best use of the entire role from a town perspective is to choose the player they MOST think to be scum, because even if they’re wrong, that player then gets to choose again. That’s two opportunities to force scum into being the 50/50 chance. Picking myself would be the absolute worst use of the role as there would then only be one opportunity to find scum (my own challenge choice). By choosing you, I’m essentially saying “Joth is my challenge choice”, except if I’m wrong YOU get to pick your own top choice.

I don’t give a damn about public opinion and neither should you (or any town). If we end up in a town-v-town challenge, regardless if you’re guaranteed to win or not, town loses. So IF you’re town then start acting like it instead of trying primarily to protect your own hide.

But he is thinking from a town perspective by trying to stay alive. From his perspective, assuming he's town, he needs to pick a fight he can win first and foremost. Yes, our goal is to get scum, but let's say he picks a scum and we lynch him instead. Scum lives. He needs to find a scum that he can actually win against in a 1V1. So yes, he needs to pick scum. But he needs to pick scum that wont get him lynched anyways. Unless he's just scum, in which case well done Galz, you get a town medal.

[MiX]

MiX, I am rereading the end of D1 and you were pretty adamant about me being scum. Then, at the beginning of today you're all about that town read on me. What's that about?

I reread your town and scum games D1, and I noticed you talked a lot, by which I mean a LOT, more when you were scum. Maybe not in quantity of posts, but in the density of posts: they were longer when you were scum. And then I saw your town game, where you...kinda did what you're doing here. Jokes, small posts, important tidbits. And most importantly, you were scumhunting really well D1, when I set aside your scumread on me I found a lot of good points, good arguments and good cases. I believe the crux of this is your ari case: 3 short quotes, 3 short lines debunking his faust case, followed (or preceded by, I forgot the order) a brief sum of what made him scum. Remember how I voted there? You made a lot of sense.

There, that's roughly my "joth is town" case. Galzria, care to destroy it?

But he is thinking from a town perspective by trying to stay alive. From his perspective, assuming he's town, he needs to pick a fight he can win first and foremost. Yes, our goal is to get scum, but let's say he picks a scum and we lynch him instead. Scum lives. He needs to find a scum that he can actually win against in a 1V1. So yes, he needs to pick scum. But he needs to pick scum that wont get him lynched anyways. Unless he's just scum, in which case well done Galz, you get a town medal.

Sadly ari whisperer, Joseph, died, but...isn't this one of the towniest things you've ever heard?

[jotheonah]

The distinction is in your lack of care regarding finding and challenging scum. If you were town, your absolute goal would be to NOT challenge town here, where town loses 100% of the time, but instead to challenge scum where, even if it’s not convenient for you, there’s a chance of us lynching correctly. You don’t care who you challenge, as long as you win. That isn’t pro-town, that’s pro-Joth, and that’s exactly the approach scum would take to try and appear townie.

You know what the best feature of a Vig is? It’s a 100% town controlled, no scum-input kill. You know what the downside is? It shorts our numbers. Being promoted as town is all the upside and none of the downside. But by making it a public poll all you’re trying to do is garner town favor by “acting” pro-town - instead of just being pro-town.

I disagree. Especially because the outcome of me making the decision without town input would be to piss everyone off, further increasing the already-high chances they vote for me.

Look, if you had picked someone with a lot of town cred, they could have played it the way you're suggesting. Heck, you could have picked yourself if you wanted to play it that way and had some real skin in the game. But what did you think was going to happen when you picked someone who almost got lynched yesterday? In the position I'm in, using my challenge power without town input is suicide.

Also you are being disingenuous when you continually state that I don't care about finding scum. At no point have I suggested that I would use my power against someone I don't think is scum. The question is, out of the set of people I consider to be likely scum, which will I pick? And the answer is, duh, the one I can beat in a 1v1 vote-off. PPE 2

Why would I ever choose someone with town cred or that I thought was town? See, you’re STILL not looking at it from a town perspective. I laid it out D1: The best use of the entire role from a town perspective is to choose the player they MOST think to be scum, because even if they’re wrong, that player then gets to choose again. That’s two opportunities to force scum into being the 50/50 chance. Picking myself would be the absolute worst use of the role as there would then only be one opportunity to find scum (my own challenge choice). By choosing you, I’m essentially saying “Joth is my challenge choice”, except if I’m wrong YOU get to pick your own top choice.

I don’t give a damn about public opinion and neither should you (or any town). If we end up in a town-v-town challenge, regardless if you’re guaranteed to win or not, town loses. So IF you’re town then start acting like it instead of trying primarily to protect your own hide.

This is actually pretty well-stated. And you're right, it would be silly for you to choose yourself or a town read (although has town cred =/= town read) But none of it explains:

(A) Why you would try to goad me into challenging you, which is exactly the opposite of what you've described above
(B) Why you would try to rush me rather than making my decision with a maximum amount of information

[Glooble]

(C) Why you felt the need to claim.

[arishipshape]

But he is thinking from a town perspective by trying to stay alive. From his perspective, assuming he's town, he needs to pick a fight he can win first and foremost. Yes, our goal is to get scum, but let's say he picks a scum and we lynch him instead. Scum lives. He needs to find a scum that he can actually win against in a 1V1. So yes, he needs to pick scum. But he needs to pick scum that wont get him lynched anyways. Unless he's just scum, in which case well done Galz, you get a town medal.

Sadly ari whisperer, Joseph, died, but...isn't this one of the towniest things you've ever heard?

This is why I advocate for pure clarity. I do not understand what you mean. Please explain this particular post with zero sarcasm or jokes. I apologize, understanding those things isn't my strong suit.

[Galzria]

Joth, I used to think you were scum. Then you got promoted and seem to be handling it wonderfully, especially with Galz's claim. You're keeping calm, cool, and logical. Galz, why did you claim?

The role is extremely positive utility for town, as it has all the upside of a Vig with none of the downside - with the added bonus that it’s like if you Vig wrong, your choice gets the added benefit of trying again. Granted town still needs to lynch correctly, but forcing scum into a 50/50 is fantastic. Vig’s are only negative utility because they shorten the game, and are more often wrong than right. This softens that while increasing the odds of finding scum, while simultaneously not shortening the game.

It didn’t make sense to claim yesterday before N1 because I could use my power N1. The odds of me living through N3 in general are significantly reduced however, so the chances it gets used again are slim. The setup knowledge that is granted to town given Joseph’s flip in conjunction with my own role is valuable though, and having it out there (and thus reducing needless speculation going forward) seemed of much higher value.

And lastly the point by MiX made him almost conf!town - which makes him a bad choice for Joth to challenge, which is where Joth was leaning.

[jotheonah]

I'm actually coming around to town!MiX here. Either he's town or he's doing a very very good job at buddying.

[Glooble]

The thing is if MiX is town then Galz is. There's no way scum!Galz claims to save town!MiX.

[jotheonah]

The thing is if MiX is town then Galz is. There's no way scum!Galz claims to save town!MiX.

And if we're all three town then scum here is just sitting back eating popcorn.

[MiX]

But he is thinking from a town perspective by trying to stay alive. From his perspective, assuming he's town, he needs to pick a fight he can win first and foremost. Yes, our goal is to get scum, but let's say he picks a scum and we lynch him instead. Scum lives. He needs to find a scum that he can actually win against in a 1V1. So yes, he needs to pick scum. But he needs to pick scum that wont get him lynched anyways. Unless he's just scum, in which case well done Galz, you get a town medal.

Sadly ari whisperer, Joseph, died, but...isn't this one of the towniest things you've ever heard?

This is why I advocate for pure clarity. I do not understand what you mean. Please explain this particular post with zero sarcasm or jokes. I apologize, understanding those things isn't my strong suit.

I'm just expressing a townread on you. I agree wholeheartedly with your post, and it seems different from what I recall you doing D2 of your last game (although I don't remember him that well).

The thing is if MiX is town then Galz is. There's no way scum!Galz claims to save town!MiX.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking after Galz explained his claim...

The thing is if MiX is town then Galz is. There's no way scum!Galz claims to save town!MiX.

And if we're all three town then scum here is just sitting back eating popcorn.

I think I can count 3 people who are eating popcorn right now: Swan, gkrieg and EFHW. Are they scum?

[A Drowned Kernel]

But he is thinking from a town perspective by trying to stay alive. From his perspective, assuming he's town, he needs to pick a fight he can win first and foremost. Yes, our goal is to get scum, but let's say he picks a scum and we lynch him instead. Scum lives. He needs to find a scum that he can actually win against in a 1V1. So yes, he needs to pick scum. But he needs to pick scum that wont get him lynched anyways. Unless he's just scum, in which case well done Galz, you get a town medal.

Sadly ari whisperer, Joseph, died, but...isn't this one of the towniest things you've ever heard?

This is why I advocate for pure clarity. I do not understand what you mean. Please explain this particular post with zero sarcasm or jokes. I apologize, understanding those things isn't my strong suit.

I'm just expressing a townread on you. I agree wholeheartedly with your post, and it seems different from what I recall you doing D2 of your last game (although I don't remember him that well).

The thing is if MiX is town then Galz is. There's no way scum!Galz claims to save town!MiX.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking after Galz explained his claim...

The thing is if MiX is town then Galz is. There's no way scum!Galz claims to save town!MiX.

And if we're all three town then scum here is just sitting back eating popcorn.

I think I can count 3 people who are eating popcorn right now: Swan, gkrieg and EFHW. Are they scum?

This all happened in a pretty short span of time, I think like half of this game hasn't even checked in to see the day has started.

[Glooble]

unvote

I actually can't get the scum!Galz narrative to make sense, but I'm also pretty sure joth is town.

[jotheonah]

But he is thinking from a town perspective by trying to stay alive. From his perspective, assuming he's town, he needs to pick a fight he can win first and foremost. Yes, our goal is to get scum, but let's say he picks a scum and we lynch him instead. Scum lives. He needs to find a scum that he can actually win against in a 1V1. So yes, he needs to pick scum. But he needs to pick scum that wont get him lynched anyways. Unless he's just scum, in which case well done Galz, you get a town medal.

Sadly ari whisperer, Joseph, died, but...isn't this one of the towniest things you've ever heard?

This is why I advocate for pure clarity. I do not understand what you mean. Please explain this particular post with zero sarcasm or jokes. I apologize, understanding those things isn't my strong suit.

I'm just expressing a townread on you. I agree wholeheartedly with your post, and it seems different from what I recall you doing D2 of your last game (although I don't remember him that well).

The thing is if MiX is town then Galz is. There's no way scum!Galz claims to save town!MiX.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking after Galz explained his claim...

The thing is if MiX is town then Galz is. There's no way scum!Galz claims to save town!MiX.

And if we're all three town then scum here is just sitting back eating popcorn.

I think I can count 3 people who are eating popcorn right now: Swan, gkrieg and EFHW. Are they scum?

I guess it's going to take a re-read for me to find out. Alright Galzria, I'm going to operate for the moment on the assumption that you are town.

unvote

[MiX]

Vote: Swan

You have a point ADK, but I believe the only person who hasn't posted yet is Swan. Oh and Space, forgot.

[jotheonah]

But he is thinking from a town perspective by trying to stay alive. From his perspective, assuming he's town, he needs to pick a fight he can win first and foremost. Yes, our goal is to get scum, but let's say he picks a scum and we lynch him instead. Scum lives. He needs to find a scum that he can actually win against in a 1V1. So yes, he needs to pick scum. But he needs to pick scum that wont get him lynched anyways. Unless he's just scum, in which case well done Galz, you get a town medal.

Sadly ari whisperer, Joseph, died, but...isn't this one of the towniest things you've ever heard?

This is why I advocate for pure clarity. I do not understand what you mean. Please explain this particular post with zero sarcasm or jokes. I apologize, understanding those things isn't my strong suit.

I'm just expressing a townread on you. I agree wholeheartedly with your post, and it seems different from what I recall you doing D2 of your last game (although I don't remember him that well).

The thing is if MiX is town then Galz is. There's no way scum!Galz claims to save town!MiX.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking after Galz explained his claim...

The thing is if MiX is town then Galz is. There's no way scum!Galz claims to save town!MiX.

And if we're all three town then scum here is just sitting back eating popcorn.

I think I can count 3 people who are eating popcorn right now: Swan, gkrieg and EFHW. Are they scum?

What about SpaceAnemone?

[Galzria]

The distinction is in your lack of care regarding finding and challenging scum. If you were town, your absolute goal would be to NOT challenge town here, where town loses 100% of the time, but instead to challenge scum where, even if it’s not convenient for you, there’s a chance of us lynching correctly. You don’t care who you challenge, as long as you win. That isn’t pro-town, that’s pro-Joth, and that’s exactly the approach scum would take to try and appear townie.

You know what the best feature of a Vig is? It’s a 100% town controlled, no scum-input kill. You know what the downside is? It shorts our numbers. Being promoted as town is all the upside and none of the downside. But by making it a public poll all you’re trying to do is garner town favor by “acting” pro-town - instead of just being pro-town.

I disagree. Especially because the outcome of me making the decision without town input would be to piss everyone off, further increasing the already-high chances they vote for me.

Look, if you had picked someone with a lot of town cred, they could have played it the way you're suggesting. Heck, you could have picked yourself if you wanted to play it that way and had some real skin in the game. But what did you think was going to happen when you picked someone who almost got lynched yesterday? In the position I'm in, using my challenge power without town input is suicide.

Also you are being disingenuous when you continually state that I don't care about finding scum. At no point have I suggested that I would use my power against someone I don't think is scum. The question is, out of the set of people I consider to be likely scum, which will I pick? And the answer is, duh, the one I can beat in a 1v1 vote-off. PPE 2

Why would I ever choose someone with town cred or that I thought was town? See, you’re STILL not looking at it from a town perspective. I laid it out D1: The best use of the entire role from a town perspective is to choose the player they MOST think to be scum, because even if they’re wrong, that player then gets to choose again. That’s two opportunities to force scum into being the 50/50 chance. Picking myself would be the absolute worst use of the role as there would then only be one opportunity to find scum (my own challenge choice). By choosing you, I’m essentially saying “Joth is my challenge choice”, except if I’m wrong YOU get to pick your own top choice.

I don’t give a damn about public opinion and neither should you (or any town). If we end up in a town-v-town challenge, regardless if you’re guaranteed to win or not, town loses. So IF you’re town then start acting like it instead of trying primarily to protect your own hide.

This is actually pretty well-stated. And you're right, it would be silly for you to choose yourself or a town read (although has town cred =/= town read) But none of it explains:

(A) Why you would try to goad me into challenging you, which is exactly the opposite of what you've described above
(B) Why you would try to rush me rather than making my decision with a maximum amount of information

A) Fair point. I do think you’re scum though, so I doubt you’ll challenge another scum (but by all means please prove me wrong!). However you’re right that challenging me isn’t best. That’s true for everyone though - nobody should want you to challenge them. My personal perspective on it is simply that I promoted you because I thought you were scum, so at that point I accept you’ll challenge another town player regardless. Might as well be me and not a different potential PR. If I’m wrong and you’re town, then definitely don’t challenge me. 😋

B) I rescind my rushing you. However what I want is for you to make the most informed and uninfluenced decision possible (if you’re town). I would be MUCH more willing to take seriously a player that said “I’m challenging X because I honestly believe he’s scum for _________ these reasons” than one that says “I’m challenging X because I can win”.

[chairs]

Woof, lots to process in the last three pages.

Town!Galz, for sure, and Town!MiX.

More if/when I sit at a non government pc.

[jotheonah]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

This is also pretty accurate.

There are some town that honestly, incorrectly, believe that the role is negative utility. If there’s a scum!Promoter, then it’s a fairly valuable tool, and they aren’t going to claim. Being able to force a lynch between {Town*:X} is quite strong. If it’s a town!Promoter, it’s also rather valuable, as they’ll get to ensure their top scum read is one of two players to be lynchable the following day - and if that player happens to be town, they’ll likely be challenging their own top scum read. I’ll take that any day.

If it’s a Scum!Promoter, they aren’t claiming. If it’s a town!promoter, scum (plus some misguided town) want that player dead.

My expectations are that thus far scum has sided with “Should Claims” and “Neutrals” if it’s a town!promoter, and have been wherever they feel like if it’s a scum!promoter, as they have no intention of claiming anyway.

This is Galz weighing in on the claim question day 1. It's pretty consistent with his reasoning here, which is points in favor.

[jotheonah]

Day 1 re-read is proving surprisingly fruitful.

[jotheonah]

MiX and I as a pair are a lot alike, and together we generate a lot of noise, especially when we fight. We should probably consider moderating the volume of our posts in large games, as it gives scum a lot of cover.

[jotheonah]

Finished re-read, but have to go. Wasn't as enlightening as I'd hoped.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 2.2

LaLight was alive... Interesting. Uncleeurope was unsure of his emotions regarding this news.

Because an odd elixir of relief and disappointment seemed to be frothing up out of his core.

He didn't know what to make of the event, or the emotions attached to it.

Uncleeurope hated not knowing things. Not knowing things meant being confused, and it is hard to make decisions properly while in that state of being.

Uncleeurope needed clarity.


Glooble (1): faust
MiX (1): chairs
DatSwan (1): MiX


Not voting (9): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, A Drowned Kernel, Glooble, jotheonah


With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 2 ends 10th of May, 8:30 am FT.

[chairs]

I’m still voting mix?

unvote

[jotheonah]

I have figured out who I want to challenge. I think I'm going to do it in like 4 hours.

[Swowl]

Vote: Swan

You have a point ADK, but I believe the only person who hasn't posted yet is Swan. Oh and Space, forgot.

Chill home slice - game started 3am my time and the. Up and to work. I will be caught up by this evening.

Which does bring up an important point - if anyone is considering avoiding then 1v1, our DL is significantly shorter up to that point.

[jotheonah]

Vote: Swan

You have a point ADK, but I believe the only person who hasn't posted yet is Swan. Oh and Space, forgot.

Chill home slice - game started 3am my time and the. Up and to work. I will be caught up by this evening.

Which does bring up an important point - if anyone is considering avoiding then 1v1, our DL is significantly shorter up to that point.

Ok. I'll wait until tomorrow morning to issue my challenge then.

[MiX]

Can you guys be as active when I'm asleep as when I'm awake? We just had an intense talk about joth, me, challenging, Galzria and promoter and I would love to wake up to another 5 pages of discussion. Hopefully featuring {Swan EFHW chairs gkrieg Space} a lot so I can read them. Pretty please?

@joth, there's no reason to hold off the challenge trigger as much as possible, because you can simply declare "I'm challenging X" without using your power, then, if you change your mind, you could always change targets. This is to say, don't use it while I'm sleeping 

I slacked off and didn't do much, D1 votes are a mess because of the way my wagon died off, I don't think I'll be able to deduce a lot from it but to be frank I haven't really dug deep into it.

Okay, useless post done.

[SpaceAnemone]

Can you guys be as active when I'm asleep as when I'm awake? We just had an intense talk about joth, me, challenging, Galzria and promoter and I would love to wake up to another 5 pages of discussion. Hopefully featuring {Swan EFHW chairs gkrieg Space} a lot so I can read them. Pretty please?

No chance of me featuring much in that 5 pages... you and I are in the same timezone, aren't we? I've had a really busy workday followed by gym tonight, so now that I've more or less caught up, i'm super tired.

Brief opinions so I don't wake up to find Joth challenging me or something:
1) I think both Joth and Galz sounded self-consistent in a way that I felt was more town-v-town than anything else.

2) Galz's point about Mix's traitor comment makes Galz seem townie but I think there's a slim chance that MiX could have planted that there. MiX's clearly been doing enough setup thinking of his own that his mind was locked enough into his own naming convention (calling the setu just "B") that he didn't understand what Galz was talking about with "CB/DB" or whatever it was he'd said.

3) Ari's comment about town having to try hard to stay alive is applicable to Joth in this situation, but the whole "town has to stay alive" issue is something I worry about with newbies because when I was a newbie I got so invested in staying alive it wasn't necessarily townie. (I'd come here after playing a lot of IRL werewolf with a variant where you really did have to survive to win, and it took a while to adjust!). Anyway, I don't find it super-townie to encourage townies in general to do everything they can to stay alive, because sometimes the best thing a townie can do for their team is die instead of a more useful role and thus help to ensure a town victory for all.

I'm sure there will be more things I need to comment on when I go back and re-reread D2 tomorrow. Sleep now!

[jotheonah]

Should we have the claiming conversation before I make my challenge?

People in this town seem to place a lot of store in claims, so I really don't want to make a strong case on scum and then end up being the lynch because of some ridiculous fake claim.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Should we have the claiming conversation before I make my challenge?

People in this town seem to place a lot of store in claims, so I really don't want to make a strong case on scum and then end up being the lynch because of some ridiculous fake claim.

We should probably give people the opportunity to claim before you challenge, yes. At this point we know the setup so any fakeclaims can be countered.

[arishipshape]

Should we have the claiming conversation before I make my challenge?

People in this town seem to place a lot of store in claims, so I really don't want to make a strong case on scum and then end up being the lynch because of some ridiculous fake claim.

We should probably give people the opportunity to claim before you challenge, yes. At this point we know the setup so any fakeclaims can be countered.

We don't know the setup. Galz could be mafia promoter. Or did I miss something?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Should we have the claiming conversation before I make my challenge?

People in this town seem to place a lot of store in claims, so I really don't want to make a strong case on scum and then end up being the lynch because of some ridiculous fake claim.

We should probably give people the opportunity to claim before you challenge, yes. At this point we know the setup so any fakeclaims can be countered.

We don't know the setup. Galz could be mafia promoter. Or did I miss something?

Very unlikely.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Should we have the claiming conversation before I make my challenge?

People in this town seem to place a lot of store in claims, so I really don't want to make a strong case on scum and then end up being the lynch because of some ridiculous fake claim.

We should probably give people the opportunity to claim before you challenge, yes. At this point we know the setup so any fakeclaims can be countered.

We don't know the setup. Galz could be mafia promoter. Or did I miss something?

But lyncher flip means we know most everything anyway.

[Swowl]

So I am finishing up some thoughts here on a Day 1 re read, but I do want to touch on this topic for discussion (if people thing it is warranted).

I think there is roughly a 0% chance that Galz is the Skum Promoter.

- He could be Goon. He knows who the target was gonna be, claims it, and we either decide to lynch him, giving the actual Mafia Promoter more time alive.
- He could be Traitor. He would know the Skum Promoter is in the game and this would be a great signal to them.
- He could be Town Promoter... except I don't completely understand why the claim of Promoter would be necessary. That being said, it doesn't really to make sense to do it all that much as Goon either (or Mafia Promoter).


Galz - I assume you have a reason for the claim other than to just elaborate upon the set up of the game. If you are Town Promoter... what upside was in your mind of you making the claim instead of staying quiet (at least for the time being)?

[Swowl]

Should we have the claiming conversation before I make my challenge?

People in this town seem to place a lot of store in claims, so I really don't want to make a strong case on scum and then end up being the lynch because of some ridiculous fake claim.

I think this is a good idea? Like you state who you are gonna target, then they are given a window to claim type of thing right?

The downside would be if you are skum, then you could choose someone else after a claim or whatever.

Actually changed my mind while typing this - probably not a good idea.

[EFHW]

If Galz is scum promoter, then we do in fact have a traitor, which means his post about MiX would have required a lot of mental gymnastics to dream up. That's a point in favor of him being town.

It's a way for scum!Galzria to signal to the traitor that he is mafia.

[EFHW]

As of  809/810 I am not scumreading Galz. He does seem to have thought about his role in detail from a town perspective. His silver tongue keeps me from saying townreading.

[EFHW]

 I am glad to see Space's comment about staying alive not always being the most important thing for town. I was having a similar thought.

[EFHW]

I have too many townreads now.

I think I'm looking for things to say so MiX has a lot to read when he wakes up. Sorry MiX, this is all I've got at the moment.

[jotheonah]

Maybe this will spark some conversation:

I am planning to challenge faust.

[arishipshape]

Maybe this will spark some conversation:

I am planning to challenge faust.

Thank you. I've scumread Faust all game. Although it could just be my anti meta bias. I'll give Faust a re-read.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Maybe this will spark some conversation:

I am planning to challenge faust.

I will have to reread faust but I don't think I would be opposed to that

[faust]

Maybe this will spark some conversation:

I am planning to challenge faust.

I am the Tracker.

[faust]

My result is negative; not sure if I should share it as it would out someone as non-PR [they could be Vengeful, but that's not a very useful PR].

[faust]

I realize you don't like my proposed challengee (Glooble). Maybe the fact that two town PRs suggested him will change your mind? But I doubt it. In lieu of that, I propose gkrieg or Space.

[MiX]

Maybe this will spark some conversation:

I am planning to challenge faust.

I am the Tracker.

Well this is fun. I guess there's no reason to not wait for a counterclaim?

Why do you propose Space?

[faust]

Why do you propose Space?

Inactivity plus they were keeping their distance from the Joseph wagon as if they expected Joseph to flip town.

[faust]

joth, please explain how you went from this:

If I were to pick for Joth, I would make him choose between {ADK, Faust, Glooble}.

Literally my top three town reads.

to this:

I am planning to challenge faust.

[MiX]

Do you believe Space's "helpfulness" in D1, coupled with them saying it was pro-town, gives Space scumpoints? Because that seems to be the majority of Space's D1, coupled with her permanent vote on Joseph and some thoughts about me.

@Space, when you see this...can you explain everything about why you never moved your vote from Joseph? I think it would be great if we had this explained.

[faust]

Do you believe Space's "helpfulness" in D1, coupled with them saying it was pro-town, gives Space scumpoints?

No.

[Glooble]

Ok, it's POE time:

Off the table:

joth: cannot challenge himself
Glooble: I am town, and joth doesn't want to lynch me anyway
Galzria: the only way he makes sense as scum is if MiX is also scum and he's taking a huge gambit that I don't think Galz would take. Much better to let MiX get lynched.
MiX: if Galz is town he's town
faust: claimed tracker, no counterclaim

That leaves:
ADK
Space
gKrieg
chairs
ari
DatSwan
EFHW

I'm inclined to believe this claim. But what was so horrible about the Joseph wagon?

I believe the part where he's promoter. But maybe not the part where he's town...

Why on earth would scum promoter claim right now?

Why wouldn't they?

1) If mix is town there's no motivation for them to claim and stop you from picking him 2) If mix is scum this irrevocably ties galz and mix together, and if one of them is caught the other one does. It's a huge risk just to stop you from picking mix, when it's pretty clear that if you did pick mix, you would be the one lynched anyway.

This post makes me want to take ADK off the table. I don't think scum!adk points this out. It's way two tempting to just let them duke it out and hope joth challenges Galz or MiX.

ari is an interesting question. I was scumreading him day one, as was joth, but mcmcsalot thought he was just newb town, and I'm inclined to trust mcmcs reads. Nothing jumps out for me either way on a reread. He spent a lot of the end of day two half-heartedly voting for inactive or less active players (chairs, EFHW) which feels scummy to me but could just be flailing town. ari is still a viable challenge from where I'm standing, I guess.

Space: mcmc thought they were scummy based on reply #355- reading it over, I really disagree, it's verbose, but Space just tends to be verbose for the sake of precision, mcmc made it seem like it was trying to obscure or manipulate and I really don't see that. The ensuing discussion from that accusation is a big chunk of the overall Space content. This post is a little defensive for my taste, especially given there wasn't even a wagon on them:

Note that my post that mcmc thinks is so scummy did another useful pro-town thing: it boosted the signal on faust's comment about the possibility of a quick-lynch before the Gladiator deadline kicks in, and obtained clear mod confirmation that it's a viable plan, which avoids uncertainty during the critical window at the start of D2.

I did also say that I don't think we should do any pre-planning around that till D2, but the idea itself was already accessible to scum, so it's not like I hurt our chances there. Furthermore, if it's being discussed at this level, a scum Gladiator has less excuse to say "oops, it didn't occur to me that we should hold out till deadline" if they come into the thread naming a second player. Same goes for avoiding a derp!town move.

Basically, I think it's pro-town to point out to whomever the gladiator is that it's a good idea to hold off and let town have some rapid start-of-D2 discussion before naming anyone else to the 1-v-1.

Defending MiX end of day two feels a little towny, if we assume MiX is town. Though its by no means exonerating.

I'm going to post this now I think then do the last four in another post because this is getting long.

[jotheonah]

joth, please explain how you went from this:

If I were to pick for Joth, I would make him choose between {ADK, Faust, Glooble}.

Literally my top three town reads.

to this:

I am planning to challenge faust.

Oh I was planning to. After I issued the challenge.

[MiX]

joth, please explain how you went from this:

If I were to pick for Joth, I would make him choose between {ADK, Faust, Glooble}.

Literally my top three town reads.

to this:

I am planning to challenge faust.

Oh I was planning to. After I issued the challenge.

Wait, how does that answer faust's question? I don't understand what you said.


@Glooble, notice how you said "End of day two" when you meant one. That was a bit weird, just saying it so others don't get confused.

[jotheonah]

My scenario for scum!faust is dependent on Galz being town which means this probably isn’t a fake claim though.

Here’s the bones of the case: Assume Galz, MiX, and I are all town.

Yesterday , faust was the one to point out that we could do a normal lynch if we squeezed it in the first 72 hours. Space reiterated that point. No one else really discussed it.

Then today starts, and neither faust nor space makes any effort to make a pre-challenge lynch happen, to delay my challenge, or even to remind us of the option. Weird, no?

But imagine faust and/or space are blind scum dealing with a town promoter. Well they want to keep their options open in case today’s gladiator is one of them or someone who might choose one of them. So they lay the groundwork.

Then today comes. Neither of them is gladiator. All my professed reads are on town. So they just, as I said before, sit back and eat popcorn.

PPE MiX: I was planning to lay out my case after I issued the challenge, not before. But claim changes things.

[jotheonah]

So assuming no counterclaim, I don’t think it can be faust. Space would be my next choice I suppose, since the case also applies to them. I have a bit more potential Space evidence as well.

[Glooble]

gKrieg: Okay, I think we've found my top choice for challenging/ lynching today. Reread him real quick. It won't take long, cause he hasn't said much. What he has said has been entirely reactive. This is actilurking at its finest. Lots of "I agree with this" and "this is a little scummy". Almost no analysis, and no strong stands about other people's scumminess. Everything is deniable. vote: gKrieg

I'll finish this anyway for the sake of completeness.

chairs: actually, chairs is an excellent contrast to gKrieg. Even fewer posts, and about the same average length, but way more substantive.  He certainly could be scum, but rereading him he feels much more likely to be busy/ slighlty disengaged town to me. Don't want to lynch.

DatSwan: Total Null read. Confused about the setup (or pretending to be.) Could easily be scum but I still like gKrieg more. DatSwan, apropos of nothing, why do you spell scum with a "k"?

EFHW: Not a lot of content, but I give her a surgery pass on that. Useful later on in my limited experience. Nothing scummy in what is there. Solid Null read.

[Glooble]

So assuming no counterclaim, I don’t think it can be faust. Space would be my next choice I suppose, since the case also applies to them. I have a bit more potential Space evidence as well.

I'm okay with that but please reread gKrieg and tell me he's not super scummy.

[jotheonah]

So assuming no counterclaim, I don’t think it can be faust. Space would be my next choice I suppose, since the case also applies to them. I have a bit more potential Space evidence as well.

I'm okay with that but please reread gKrieg and tell me he's not super scummy.

I re-read. That’s not my favorite kind of case.

[MiX]

I'm not sure if I should voice my own reads, given that I would rather hear them from scum...

If my town reads are correct, I believe we already won. I agree with Galzria that town promoter is a very powerful role and with Lyncher gone we can PoE a lot of people. Given that we have 2 possible mislynches left, and because we're an even number Vengeful Townie can even bring that number to 3, which gives us a lot of room to maneuver, my townreads should be enough to quite literally PoE all 3 scum.

This is to say I have 3 specific players that I would like to lynch today, and I'm fine with any, given that I believe we're in a very good position. Of course, maybe scum's playing us really well, but this post is essencially saying I'm hopeful, my lack of reads have died and I'm ready to win.

I support joth's choice.

[SpaceAnemone]

Do you believe Space's "helpfulness" in D1, coupled with them saying it was pro-town, gives Space scumpoints? Because that seems to be the majority of Space's D1, coupled with her permanent vote on Joseph and some thoughts about me.

@Space, when you see this...can you explain everything about why you never moved your vote from Joseph? I think it would be great if we had this explained.

I find it very easy to read Joseph as the kind of person who acts to amuse himself and doesn't necessarily think things through, so in the absence of real scum evidence, there didn't seem to be any good reason not to leave the vote where I'd left it in RVS. As faust pointed out last game, sometimes I have biases.

In fact, Joseph did mess up his claim, and I think that what faust picked up on there was a genuine not-town slip, so I think everyone voting there was entirely justified in case he'd been scum and not just the lyncher doctor.

Of course, if I live long enough, I'll frustrate myself in the later game by not having moved myself around a few different wagons to help see who moves where when there are other people voting, but I just wasn't invested enough in most of the arguments going on for me to feel energetic enough to move around. Sad but true.

[Glooble]

Joseph’s slim was about knowing there was a traitor though. Lyncher Doctor doesn’t have that information any more than a VT does. It’s in a different quadrant.

[SpaceAnemone]

Joseph’s slim was about knowing there was a traitor though. Lyncher Doctor doesn’t have that information any more than a VT does. It’s in a different quadrant.

He may have made a slip around traitor, but the one I'm specifically referring to is the one faust pointed out after Joseph's claim, after which Joseph offered a pretty poor defense:

Most of all I don't buy that you got this role and subsequently believed that only one of the quadrants is chosen, because then there wouldn't be an option for 2 bodyguards.

That's true, if I'd read my role PM correctly
I saw bodyguard and was like "yh, I know what that does, cool", and missed the 2 bodyguard thing. It's a crap defence but it's true

I think it was very reasonable to think something fishy was going on with Joseph after this. I'd hoped he was scum fake-claiming, but I'll take a non-townie roll over a town lynch.

[SpaceAnemone]

Then today starts, and neither faust nor space makes any effort to make a pre-challenge lynch happen, to delay my challenge, or even to remind us of the option. Weird, no?

Until the past hour or so, last night was the only time I'd checked in since the start of D2 because my day yesterday was busy, and someone else had already mentioned it. So not that weird.

[MiX]

Joseph’s slim was about knowing there was a traitor though. Lyncher Doctor doesn’t have that information any more than a VT does. It’s in a different quadrant.

He may have made a slip around traitor, but the one I'm specifically referring to is the one faust pointed out after Joseph's claim, after which Joseph offered a pretty poor defense:

Most of all I don't buy that you got this role and subsequently believed that only one of the quadrants is chosen, because then there wouldn't be an option for 2 bodyguards.

That's true, if I'd read my role PM correctly
I saw bodyguard and was like "yh, I know what that does, cool", and missed the 2 bodyguard thing. It's a crap defence but it's true

I think it was very reasonable to think something fishy was going on with Joseph after this. I'd hoped he was scum fake-claiming, but I'll take a non-townie roll over a town lynch.

Why didn't you explain this at the end of day 1?

[SpaceAnemone]

Joseph’s slim was about knowing there was a traitor though. Lyncher Doctor doesn’t have that information any more than a VT does. It’s in a different quadrant.

He may have made a slip around traitor, but the one I'm specifically referring to is the one faust pointed out after Joseph's claim, after which Joseph offered a pretty poor defense:

Most of all I don't buy that you got this role and subsequently believed that only one of the quadrants is chosen, because then there wouldn't be an option for 2 bodyguards.

That's true, if I'd read my role PM correctly
I saw bodyguard and was like "yh, I know what that does, cool", and missed the 2 bodyguard thing. It's a crap defence but it's true

I think it was very reasonable to think something fishy was going on with Joseph after this. I'd hoped he was scum fake-claiming, but I'll take a non-townie roll over a town lynch.

Why didn't you explain this at the end of day 1?

Why did it need even more explaining than that at the time? I'm only re-posting it now to clarify which thing I was referring to, since it looks like Glooble missed it the first time round.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry had my final final yesterday and I’m not active on the weekends. Challenging a lurker is a bad choice anyway, as it requires people to take a stand on someone who it is easy to take a stand on.

I stayed away from Joseph early before the lynch had happened because I actually didn’t think he was scum. I did take strong stands on people, it was just usually about town reads like faust and Space and Joseph.

[MiX]

Sorry had my final final yesterday and I’m not active on the weekends. Challenging a lurker is a bad choice anyway, as it requires people to take a stand on someone who it is easy to take a stand on.

I stayed away from Joseph early before the lynch had happened because I actually didn’t think he was scum. I did take strong stands on people, it was just usually about town reads like faust and Space and Joseph.

Who do you think should be challenged?

[Swowl]

gKrieg: Okay, I think we've found my top choice for challenging/ lynching today. Reread him real quick. It won't take long, cause he hasn't said much. What he has said has been entirely reactive. This is actilurking at its finest. Lots of "I agree with this" and "this is a little scummy". Almost no analysis, and no strong stands about other people's scumminess. Everything is deniable. vote: gKrieg

DatSwan: Total Null read. Confused about the setup (or pretending to be.) Could easily be scum but I still like gKrieg more. DatSwan, apropos of nothing, why do you spell scum with a "k"?

I am no longer confused fwiw.
Skum is spelled with a K due to the faxt that the x button on my xomputer is broken.

[Swowl]

Damn - i missed the c in confused... no idea why with a k, just always been that way.


Also, unless you are somehow 100% sure Joth is town, you should probably hold back on the info a bit until after the challenge. Kind of just giving potential skum the upper hand in the selection process. Still give info, just maybe after the challenge is what i am saying.

[jotheonah]

So no counterclaims then? Bummer.

[A Drowned Kernel]

We should massclaim.

I'm serious. I was looking at the setup and we can get fantastic PoE.

What I'm thinking is:
-bodyguard claims (who cares, they're bodyguard, dying to protect a PR is the point of the role anyway)
-if psychologist has an innocent result from last night (guaranteed to be innocent at this point) that is NOT one of the claimed PRs, they claim with that result
-if psychologist claims, vengeful townie claims

Scum can't counter or fakeclaim this early because we just catch them. If we accept galz's claim (I do), we have six ICs out of 12 people. That leaves 3 scum in 6 people. If we can determine the towniness of just one person in that group, we win

[Swowl]

OK I want to get this out prior to the actual gauntlet being thrown down so it doesn't loose value in the eyes of everyone...

1) Joth waiting for a claim is weird. There is no world in which there is a CC prior to a target being selected.

 - If faust is Town and skum wants to CC, they would wait for it to be Joth vs Faust and then do the CC. If it is Town V Town, they would obviously then stay quiet. No point in outing themselves. If Joth is skum, and it is skum vs town, they would probably still not do it - cuz that pretty much starts us Day 5 1vs5. So all in all, I don't see a skum counter claim happening here - under the assumption faust is the Town Tracker.

- If faust is skum and fake claiming Tracker, I do not know if the right play would be to come out as the real Tracker. That would put them in the spot of being selected for the second target of the lynch pool vs faust. If they lose that, we lose the tracker. If they win that, skum still kills the tracker at night. Either which way, if you fast forward to Day 4, we are down 1 skum and 1 tracker. The downside of them not claiming is obviously that if faust is skum then they probably get a pass on today's lynch pool, but the tracker can still claim tomorrow. They get an extra night of results, we gain interaction not based solely on focusing on the CC aspect, and assuming the Tracker is Town without a result on Joth... it leaves Joth on the table.


2) I do not believe that Galz and MiX can be skum together

3) I do not believe that faust and Galz can be skum together

4) I do not believe Galz and Joth can be skum together

5) I believe it is very unlikely that Joth and faust are skum together


Add all the above up, I do not think there is 2 or more skum in [Mix, Galz, faust, Joth]. I do however think that it is likely there is 1 skum there.

So, removing Joth!Galz and Joth!Faust, I am left with Joth!MiX as tho last option. As I mentioned, I do not think that Galz!MiX and I do not think it is likely Joth!Faust.


I am not trying to be counter productive, but at this point I am admitting defeat on my reads yesterday for Joth vs Joseph.



I think that Faust is most likely telling the truth, and if they are not, then the most likely scenario is a set up with faust. But mostly, faust is probably telling the truth.

I think that Galz is either the Town Promoter or the Traitor. If they are the Traitor then it could also be Galz!MiX, which adds into that idea, but still it is equally likely that he is just being honest.

I think if there is any scenario in 2 of the above being skum are true, it is Joth!MiX... and that is about as far fetched as you can get.

I think MiX is Town over Joth.

The logical explanation is either that this is somehow Skum vs Skum vs Town vs Town, or it is Skum vs Town vs Town vs Town, or I suppose it could be all Town.... but I find the last unlikely.


If faust is lying he will be found out.
If Galz is lying we will get some weird no kill situation, and they will be found out.

That leaves MiX and Joth.


So either...
1) All the skum is within [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW]... which is either 2/8 or 3/8
2) Some amount of skum is within the same pool, and another is within [Joth, Mix, Galz, faust]


... which sucks. I have never played with a Promoter before, but I cannot come up with a solution for this one.


PPE 1

[SpaceAnemone]

1) Joth waiting for a claim is weird. There is no world in which there is a CC prior to a target being selected.

Really? I think if faust is scum then a townie tracker speaks up immediately because they know faust is conf!scum, and they have to ensure that faust is the one to go into the 1v1 with Joth, because what better evidence can you ever get that someone is scum than them claiming your own role?

I do think that faust is basically IC, assuming everyone has checked into the thread at least once since he claimed (which I haven't yet checked).

[SpaceAnemone]

We should massclaim.

I'm serious. I was looking at the setup and we can get fantastic PoE.

What I'm thinking is:
-bodyguard claims (who cares, they're bodyguard, dying to protect a PR is the point of the role anyway)
-if psychologist has an innocent result from last night (guaranteed to be innocent at this point) that is NOT one of the claimed PRs, they claim with that result
-if psychologist claims, vengeful townie claims

Scum can't counter or fakeclaim this early because we just catch them. If we accept galz's claim (I do), we have six ICs out of 12 people. That leaves 3 scum in 6 people. If we can determine the towniness of just one person in that group, we win

This is an interesting thought, though I do think it's dangerous to assume Galz is definitely town, because I think if he's a goon or the traitor there are strong reasons for him to claim promoter. That means the chance of him being scum is non-negligible, though fwiw I think I'm townreading him.

Anyway, we still might get great PoE if we combine the claims with the existing strong hunches about which players are likely not to be scum with one another, so it still might be a strong idea. For the 12 living players in the game, we could have the Tracker, Vengeful Townie, Psychologist, Bodyguard, and a hoped-for "cannot kill" person from the Psychologist, which is 5 guaranteed townies. We'd lose most of the rest of the PR shots because scum would know exactly who to pick off, though it'll take a few nights to kill them all. If some of the people we have good ideas about the interactions between (e.g. Mix, Galz, Joth and faust, mostly) are in the non-IC'd set, I think it would be possible to narrow the lynchpool quite a lot.

OTOH, maybe we're just saying that we feel like we're already in a reasonably strong position here. Is it even better if we don't force the PRs to claim all at once, let them keep using their PRs for the good of town, and just scum-hunt as usual but avoid lynching anyone who claims a PR unless it's counterclaimed?

[EFHW]

My current sense is that joth, MiX, Galz and faust are all town.

Of the remainder: [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW], 3 are probably scum. 3/7 from my perspective.

I don't think we get as many IC's from claiming as ADK thinks. Both bodyguards and 1-3 scum could claim bodyguard, so that's a wash, no better than the gladiator fight. There might be a traitor, so an innocent result from the psychologist isn't for sure. Psychologist would be IC if not counterclaimed, otherwise 50/50. Vengeful Townie could become IC since scum wouldn't fakeclaim that, given that the counterclaim would lead to their death by revenge even if they aren't lynched. So max two ICs, plus faust.

I'm in favor of proceeding as we have been.

[Glooble]

There only one body guard.

[Glooble]

*There’s

[faust]

We should massclaim.

I'm serious. I was looking at the setup and we can get fantastic PoE.

What I'm thinking is:
-bodyguard claims (who cares, they're bodyguard, dying to protect a PR is the point of the role anyway)
-if psychologist has an innocent result from last night (guaranteed to be innocent at this point) that is NOT one of the claimed PRs, they claim with that result
-if psychologist claims, vengeful townie claims

Scum can't counter or fakeclaim this early because we just catch them. If we accept galz's claim (I do), we have six ICs out of 12 people. That leaves 3 scum in 6 people. If we can determine the towniness of just one person in that group, we win

Or we could wait and let people claim before lynching them.

[faust]

Realistically, massclaim wouldn't finish before joth has to choose his target, so it's not useful today.

[EFHW]

On the other hand ...

Right now town!joth's odds of picking scum are 3/8 from his perspective, 37.5%. If we generate one IC from those 8, that's 43%. 2 IC's, 50%. Or in the case of psychologist counterclaim with both claimants in those 8, we get 50%.

Oh, only one bodyguard. Thanks. That means either IC or 50/50 if counterclaimed.

It does seem like claiming could increase joth's odds of choosing scum about 12.5%. Without claiming, we'll likely get 2 informational results tomorrow and lose the bodyguard. With claiming we'll get 1 or 2 results, 50/50 chance of bodyguard surviving, with scum playing WIFOM with the bodyguard.

[EFHW]

Realistically, massclaim wouldn't finish before joth has to choose his target, so it's not useful today.

~34 hours, we could probably do it. But my argument above is based on the assumption joth, MiX and Galz are all town, so it's probably all a wash anyway.

[Galzria]

I realize you don't like my proposed challengee (Glooble). Maybe the fact that two town PRs suggested him will change your mind? But I doubt it. In lieu of that, I propose gkrieg or Space.

Sorry, I was up for a 23.5 hour span yesterday and was at work today. I’m caught up (reading) but not really mentally able to contribute right now - but I wanted to note that I’m feeling this. I support Faust here.

[Swowl]

1) Joth waiting for a claim is weird. There is no world in which there is a CC prior to a target being selected.

Really? I think if faust is scum then a townie tracker speaks up immediately because they know faust is conf!scum, and they have to ensure that faust is the one to go into the 1v1 with Joth, because what better evidence can you ever get that someone is scum than them claiming your own role?

I do think that faust is basically IC, assuming everyone has checked into the thread at least once since he claimed (which I haven't yet checked).

That’s fair. I suppose a large amount of suspicion i have is based on Joth potentially being skum.

[Swowl]

My current sense is that joth, MiX, Galz and faust are all town.

Of the remainder: [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW], 3 are probably scum. 3/7 from my perspective.

I don't think we get as many IC's from claiming as ADK thinks. Both bodyguards and 1-3 scum could claim bodyguard, so that's a wash, no better than the gladiator fight. There might be a traitor, so an innocent result from the psychologist isn't for sure. Psychologist would be IC if not counterclaimed, otherwise 50/50. Vengeful Townie could become IC since scum wouldn't fakeclaim that, given that the counterclaim would lead to their death by revenge even if they aren't lynched. So max two ICs, plus faust.

I'm in favor of proceeding as we have been.

So vengeful townie bit is off by a few notches.  If anything the vengeful claims, there are 2 options.
1) skum does not cc and most likely kills them
2) skum CCs.... then we have 2 potential targets. If we guess right then yay, if not then we loose a townie and we also force that townie to take a shot at a wagon with a absolute maximum of 3/7 shot of finding skum.
3) the claiming i feel needs to stop. We are not in a bad spot. The most valuable role we have is still quiet ... which is good... but at the very least by half claiming we are just limiting their pool of kill selections.
I don’t know where i stand on mass claim - i guess i think this would be a bad time for it given the promoter thing in play.

[Swowl]

And with that i am unfortunately going to bed and then work. I will try the best i can to check in prior to the gladiator dl. Would appreciate it Joth could extend that to the longer extent within reason.

[Swowl]

Ok last last thing in case i am not back and claim talk goes down.
I think space is correct in their last post regarding letting PRs play out instead of claiming. 10 alive tomorrow even if we mislynch today and skum kills tonight, if less than both of those players are a PR we will have the ability to claim out tomorrow with the addition of some extra results.
Doing it today keeps the prs from further info, and it has the downside of the lynch pool isolation.


Ok now I’m going to bed

[MiX]

I was thinking about massclaim when I said we win if my townreads are correct. I don't think there's any reason to risk it. we can simply claim tomorrow, and if psychologist doesn't die then we (almost) win. I also don't 100% trust Galzria, which would destroy this plan completely.

I am almost 100% sure Swan is scum for thinking Tracker shouldn't instantly counterclaim faust, but there's so many scummy people (mostly everyone who isn't towny) that I'm willing to let him slide for today.

For the same reason, townpoints for Space for saying that we shouldn't massclaim. Not sure what to think of ADK here, really...

Next post's me analyzing Swan's wall post, sorry Swan, but your walls are really confusing at a glance.

[MiX]

1) All the skum is within [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW]... which is either 2/8 or 3/8
2) Some amount of skum is within the same pool, and another is within [Joth, Mix, Galz, faust]

Why is it either 2/8 or 3/8?

The overall post is a really big stretch to scumread ICs. Yeah, I want Swan to claim here.

Vote: Swan

[jotheonah]

Intent to challenge DatSwan in 6 hours.

[faust]

I have to say I'm growing to like a joth lynch.

[EFHW]

My current sense is that joth, MiX, Galz and faust are all town.

Of the remainder: [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW], 3 are probably scum. 3/7 from my perspective.

I don't think we get as many IC's from claiming as ADK thinks. Both bodyguards and 1-3 scum could claim bodyguard, so that's a wash, no better than the gladiator fight. There might be a traitor, so an innocent result from the psychologist isn't for sure. Psychologist would be IC if not counterclaimed, otherwise 50/50. Vengeful Townie could become IC since scum wouldn't fakeclaim that, given that the counterclaim would lead to their death by revenge even if they aren't lynched. So max two ICs, plus faust.

I'm in favor of proceeding as we have been.

So vengeful townie bit is off by a few notches.  If anything the vengeful claims, there are 2 options.
1) skum does not cc and most likely kills them
2) skum CCs.... then we have 2 potential targets. If we guess right then yay, if not then we loose a townie and we also force that townie to take a shot at a wagon with a absolute maximum of 3/7 shot of finding skum.

No, if we lose the vengeful townie in a 1:1, they will certainly shoot the fakeclaiming scum.

I'm not sure what it means that DatSwan is missing details like this and the tracker claim issues, but it makes me think town > scum.

[EFHW]

Town!DatSwan is more likely to talk off the top of his head in rapid fire deductions, sometimes going astray. But I'd still vote him over joth. I'll reread a few people, see if I have a better suggestion.

[MiX]

Town!DatSwan is more likely to talk off the top of his head in rapid fire deductions, sometimes going astray. But I'd still vote him over joth. I'll reread a few people, see if I have a better suggestion.

I can't see Swan doing all of these mistakes...at all. So my gut tells me "scum, scum, obv!scum!', but I have no idea if that means Swan is scum...

There's probably a better answer for "who should be challenged", which is: almost everyone. But I like the Swan.

Vote: gkrieg for being the weakest link.

[jotheonah]

Swan’s “Mistakes” read a lot like scum trying to sow confusion because town is too close to figuring it all out.

What’s the case on gkrieg? He’s a PoE choice. I’m not challenging a PoE choice, it’s the worst kind of case. Someone give me something real to go on and I’ll consider it.

[EFHW]

I actually just reread gkrieg, and can't support a wagon on him. Here's the blow-by-blow

28 RVS Joseph
45 Tells ari to chill re: RVS Joseph [ari seemed to take it literally]
47 RVS Space
162 Agrees with faust, disagrees with joth, vig is better than promoter because gives a town-controlled kill.
163 v. MiX for joth vote.

388 MiX a bit scummy for post expressing no reads, low effort
390 townpoints to joth for seeing ari as scummy
392 Doesn't remember faust being coy before. [This is weird to me. faust does things without explaining all the time.]
393 Sometimes good to lie as town [I'd policy vote him for this, but not scummy]
394 Disagrees with ari voting faust.
396 joth is scummy for townreading faust [I didn't understand this one]
397 "Lol, this is the Spaceiest thing that has ever Spaced.  <3"
398

Vote: ari

Perfectly timed bus. Well-done.

Is it bad if I agree with you, but also kind of think you are scum?

399 ari is showing OMGUS
400 explaining his absences
401 His reads change quickly
402 Would jump on the Joseph traitor slip except that it was Joseph.
403 criticizes MiX
407 Townreads: faust, space, Joseph, chairs, EFHW. Scumreads: MiX, Ari, ADK b/c of faust's case
408 Accepts Space's explanation for why faust crotchety.
495 v. ari
496 v. MiX. Doesn't explain switch
579 Scumreads: MiX, ADK, ari

733 We don't have a jester

875 defends himself.

[EFHW]

joth, have you considered ari?

[MiX]

Swan’s “Mistakes” read a lot like scum trying to sow confusion because town is too close to figuring it all out.

What’s the case on gkrieg? He’s a PoE choice. I’m not challenging a PoE choice, it’s the worst kind of case. Someone give me something real to go on and I’ll consider it.

There is no case on gkrieg...just that faust told me he's good as town and I haven't seen that at all. But given he hasn't done anything it's more NAI than anything.

In the end, this is your decision, mostly because there's a very very very slim chance you're scum so I have no reason to tell you what town knows. I'm fine with Swan.

[EFHW]

Partway through ari reread. His main themes are: How town should play; How he is playing; That he is town, not scum like last time. Trying to contribute but feels like he's running out of things to do. Nullish so far. I'm taking a break for now.

[Swowl]

I feel like people are reading my words and not understanding my logic, or at least the wording of it.

As I stated, i do not think the concept of having every player that is potentially going to be targeted as a gladiator claim is a good idea. So i will not be claiming at this time.

I also, after a read, don’t really have a super case to make on anyone outside of what i have said.

The players that are painting me skummy by pretending they think i am confused based on how i type... are in fact skummy. I play this way 100% of the time. It is not towny, or skummy. Only played a few with mix, but makes me suspect EFHW.

[MiX]

The players that are painting me skummy by pretending they think i am confused based on how i type... are in fact skummy. I play this way 100% of the time. It is not towny, or skummy. Only played a few with mix, but makes me suspect EFHW.

Hold on...didn't EFHW defend you? She even said you're "town > scum", why is she scummy?

[Swowl]

I feel like people are reading my words and not understanding my logic, or at least the wording of it.

As I stated, i do not think the concept of having every player that is potentially going to be targeted as a gladiator claim is a good idea. So i will not be claiming at this time.

I also, after a read, don’t really have a super case to make on anyone outside of what i have said.

The players that are painting me skummy by pretending they think i am confused based on how i type... are in fact skummy. I play this way 100% of the time. It is not towny, or skummy. Only played a few with mix, but makes me suspect EFHW.

Hm actually I guess not so much actually. I read the part where she said swan>Joth, but missed the swan town>skum part.

[Swowl]

The players that are painting me skummy by pretending they think i am confused based on how i type... are in fact skummy. I play this way 100% of the time. It is not towny, or skummy. Only played a few with mix, but makes me suspect EFHW.

Hold on...didn't EFHW defend you? She even said you're "town > scum", why is she scummy?

Yeah mb i am reading backwards on my phone - see most recent

[MiX]

I also, after a read, don’t really have a super case to make on anyone outside of what i have said.

If you had to pick from {ADK, Glooble, gkrieg, EFHW, ari, Space, chairs} to challenge, who would it be?

[MiX]

1) All the skum is within [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW]... which is either 2/8 or 3/8
2) Some amount of skum is within the same pool, and another is within [Joth, Mix, Galz, faust]

Why is it either 2/8 or 3/8?

[Swowl]

1) All the skum is within [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW]... which is either 2/8 or 3/8
2) Some amount of skum is within the same pool, and another is within [Joth, Mix, Galz, faust]

Why is it either 2/8 or 3/8?

Just separating the traitor out. Technically it is 3/8 either way.

[Swowl]

I also, after a read, don’t really have a super case to make on anyone outside of what i have said.

If you had to pick from {ADK, Glooble, gkrieg, EFHW, ari, Space, chairs} to challenge, who would it be?

Not really a question that matters, as I am not the one doing the choosing.

[MiX]

I also, after a read, don’t really have a super case to make on anyone outside of what i have said.

If you had to pick from {ADK, Glooble, gkrieg, EFHW, ari, Space, chairs} to challenge, who would it be?

Not really a question that matters, as I am not the one doing the choosing.

How about...if you had mind control powers over joth, and joth is town, who would you make him pick? Or really, what is your top scumread, I'm pretty sure joth will pick you so you might as well defend yourself now, pick is lynch, I can't see anyone voting joth over you.

[faust]

Swan’s “Mistakes” read a lot like scum trying to sow confusion because town is too close to figuring it all out.

I think scum doesn't do that often.

[MiX]

1) All the skum is within [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW]... which is either 2/8 or 3/8
2) Some amount of skum is within the same pool, and another is within [Joth, Mix, Galz, faust]

Why is it either 2/8 or 3/8?

Just separating the traitor out. Technically it is 3/8 either way.

Hold on, I just saw a contradiction here. It is impossible for the Traitor to lie there AND to be 2 scum there. I believe this mistake comes more from scum that absolutely know there IS no Traitor. How do you explain this Swan?

Swan’s “Mistakes” read a lot like scum trying to sow confusion because town is too close to figuring it all out.

I think scum doesn't do that often.

Do you think Swan's getting everything about the setup wrong as town? Because that would be according to his meta for sure, something scum!Swan would love to do as well.

[faust]

I can't see anyone voting joth over you.

I would.

[MiX]

I can't see anyone voting joth over you.

I would.

I would ask why, but you're the IC. Do you wish to state why you believe joth is scum?

[faust]

Swan’s “Mistakes” read a lot like scum trying to sow confusion because town is too close to figuring it all out.

I think scum doesn't do that often.

Do you think Swan's getting everything about the setup wrong as town? Because that would be according to his meta for sure, something scum!Swan would love to do as well.

I think it serves no purposes for scum!Swan to throw around wrong info as there are enough savvy people around that it will be figured out in no time. So he got it wrong genuinely or just to towncred himself, where I think the former is more likely because it's really not that much of a source of towncred anyways.

[faust]

I can't see anyone voting joth over you.

I would.

I would ask why, but you're the IC. Do you wish to state why you believe joth is scum?

I think he's throwing around his challengee target at a lot of people in order to draw as many claims as possible.

[Swowl]

1) All the skum is within [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW]... which is either 2/8 or 3/8
2) Some amount of skum is within the same pool, and another is within [Joth, Mix, Galz, faust]

Why is it either 2/8 or 3/8?

Just separating the traitor out. Technically it is 3/8 either way.

Hold on, I just saw a contradiction here. It is impossible for the Traitor to lie there AND to be 2 scum there. I believe this mistake comes more from scum that absolutely know there IS no Traitor. How do you explain this Swan?

Swan’s “Mistakes” read a lot like scum trying to sow confusion because town is too close to figuring it all out.

I think scum doesn't do that often.

Do you think Swan's getting everything about the setup wrong as town? Because that would be according to his meta for sure, something scum!Swan would love to do as well.

You are parsing 2 different trains of my thought together. All i Did was point out the maximum potential amount of skum -  could be 2 skum in the pool or 3 skum in the pool.

[MiX]

1) All the skum is within [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW]... which is either 2/8 or 3/8
2) Some amount of skum is within the same pool, and another is within [Joth, Mix, Galz, faust]

Why is it either 2/8 or 3/8?

Just separating the traitor out. Technically it is 3/8 either way.

Hold on, I just saw a contradiction here. It is impossible for the Traitor to lie there AND to be 2 scum there. I believe this mistake comes more from scum that absolutely know there IS no Traitor. How do you explain this Swan?

You are parsing 2 different trains of my thought together. All i Did was point out the maximum potential amount of skum -  could be 2 skum in the pool or 3 skum in the pool.

Then why did you answer the first question with "separating the traitor out"?

[jotheonah]

challenge: DatSwan

YOLO

[MiX]

challenge: DatSwan

YOLO

...

Vote: Swan

[jotheonah]

vote: Swan

faust is right. The more I swing the challenge around, the more PR claims we draw out. And Galzria was right when he said that I shouldn't wait for consensus or a guaranteed win to pick a target -- someone everyone wants to vote for is probably town.

So here's DatSwan, a relatively scummy person, on the PoE list, already said he wouldn't claim, and several people are defending him. That's what I got. You should vote for him.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Works for me

vote: datswan

[MiX]

Do we want to end the day here? I suppose there's nothing else to do, but we still have 4 days for shenanigans...

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 2.3

Uncleeurope didn't envy the group of people under his charge, they didn't know everything like he did.

He knew all.

It was never enough, though, he wanted power.

With power, clarity is often lost, but without power what use is clarity?

jotheonah(0):          VS	DatSwan(3):
	MiX
	jotheonah
	A Drowned Kernel

Not voting (9): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, Glooble, faust, chairs


With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 2 ends 10th of May, 8:30 am FT.

[faust]

Vote: jotheonah

[faust]

So here's DatSwan, a relatively scummy person, on the PoE list, already said he wouldn't claim, and several people are defending him. That's what I got. You should vote for him.

It takes a special kind of twisted reasoning if people defending someone makes them scummy. And who was defending anyway? Me? You think I'm his partner?

[MiX]

So here's DatSwan, a relatively scummy person, on the PoE list, already said he wouldn't claim, and several people are defending him. That's what I got. You should vote for him.

It takes a special kind of twisted reasoning if people defending someone makes them scummy. And who was defending anyway? Me? You think I'm his partner?

EFHW was. Do you actually believe joth's scummier than swan...? Do you think town would never want their scumreads to claim?

[faust]

So here's DatSwan, a relatively scummy person, on the PoE list, already said he wouldn't claim, and several people are defending him. That's what I got. You should vote for him.

It takes a special kind of twisted reasoning if people defending someone makes them scummy. And who was defending anyway? Me? You think I'm his partner?

EFHW was. Do you actually believe joth's scummier than swan...? Do you think town would never want their scumreads to claim?

Why do you think joth is town?

[MiX]

So here's DatSwan, a relatively scummy person, on the PoE list, already said he wouldn't claim, and several people are defending him. That's what I got. You should vote for him.

It takes a special kind of twisted reasoning if people defending someone makes them scummy. And who was defending anyway? Me? You think I'm his partner?

EFHW was. Do you actually believe joth's scummier than swan...? Do you think town would never want their scumreads to claim?

Why do you think joth is town?

Hmm. I might've given a little too many townpoints for joth after he got promoted. But I think joth's being incredibly towny in everything he does, completely unlike what he was last scum game and if my memory serves me he's doing everything he did when he was town. I guess we have 4 days for me to reread the 2 possible wagons, so I should actually stabilize my read on joth now that it won't influence who he challenges.

[EFHW]

vote: DatSwan

[Swowl]

OK I absolutely love the giant score board Vote Count thing - I feel closer to Kurt Russle than I ever had before.

I have just a ton of fun stuff I would like to speak about. As I mentioned, I did not want to do so prior to Joth finalizing a target. I will get it out when I get back to a computer.

Obviously...

Vote: Joth

[SpaceAnemone]

1) All the skum is within [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW]... which is either 2/8 or 3/8
2) Some amount of skum is within the same pool, and another is within [Joth, Mix, Galz, faust]

Why is it either 2/8 or 3/8?

Just separating the traitor out. Technically it is 3/8 either way.

Hold on, I just saw a contradiction here. It is impossible for the Traitor to lie there AND to be 2 scum there. I believe this mistake comes more from scum that absolutely know there IS no Traitor. How do you explain this Swan?

I don't think this is as damning as you seem to think it is, but I do accept there's a contradiction. I agree with faust that it's probably just Swan not thinking through everything, though.

If all of his second list is town, then there are probably 3 full mafia members in the first list (if other assumptions about Joth etc being townie hold), so that part of the statement holds.

Alternatively, we're in a situation where Galz lied about being town promoter, in which case he's on team evil, so if he's mafia promoter or mafia goon, then there's at most one full mafia member in the first list, plus quite probably the traitor (given the same assumptions about the second list being townie). So stated correctly, if he's counting the traitor as "not skum" then he ought to have said 1-3/8, not just 2 or 3/8. I think it's kind of a technicality.

Note: I'm not arguing in this post that anyone on the second list (besides faust) is conf!town, I'm just stating the assumptions that seem to have been present in Swan's reasoning when he made that statement.

[MiX]

1) All the skum is within [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW]... which is either 2/8 or 3/8
2) Some amount of skum is within the same pool, and another is within [Joth, Mix, Galz, faust]

Why is it either 2/8 or 3/8?

Just separating the traitor out. Technically it is 3/8 either way.

Hold on, I just saw a contradiction here. It is impossible for the Traitor to lie there AND to be 2 scum there. I believe this mistake comes more from scum that absolutely know there IS no Traitor. How do you explain this Swan?

I don't think this is as damning as you seem to think it is, but I do accept there's a contradiction. I agree with faust that it's probably just Swan not thinking through everything, though.

If all of his second list is town, then there are probably 3 full mafia members in the first list (if other assumptions about Joth etc being townie hold), so that part of the statement holds.

Alternatively, we're in a situation where Galz lied about being town promoter, in which case he's on team evil, so if he's mafia promoter or mafia goon, then there's at most one full mafia member in the first list, plus quite probably the traitor (given the same assumptions about the second list being townie). So stated correctly, if he's counting the traitor as "not skum" then he ought to have said 1-3/8, not just 2 or 3/8. I think it's kind of a technicality.

Note: I'm not arguing in this post that anyone on the second list (besides faust) is conf!town, I'm just stating the assumptions that seem to have been present in Swan's reasoning when he made that statement.

Almost correct: if Galz was traitor, there would in fact be 2 scum, but it couldn't be "possible Traitor". Overall it's a weak point that just built up on top of the many many many others. I don't know, I recall Swan as someone who (eventually) understands setups better than this.

[SpaceAnemone]

I don't think this is as damning as you seem to think it is, but I do accept there's a contradiction. I agree with faust that it's probably just Swan not thinking through everything, though.

If all of his second list is town, then there are probably 3 full mafia members in the first list (if other assumptions about Joth etc being townie hold), so that part of the statement holds.

Alternatively, we're in a situation where Galz lied about being town promoter, in which case he's on team evil, so if he's mafia promoter or mafia goon, then there's at most one full mafia member in the first list, plus quite probably the traitor (given the same assumptions about the second list being townie). So stated correctly, if he's counting the traitor as "not skum" then he ought to have said 1-3/8, not just 2 or 3/8. I think it's kind of a technicality.

Note: I'm not arguing in this post that anyone on the second list (besides faust) is conf!town, I'm just stating the assumptions that seem to have been present in Swan's reasoning when he made that statement.

Almost correct: if Galz was traitor, there would in fact be 2 scum, but it couldn't be "possible Traitor". Overall it's a weak point that just built up on top of the many many many others. I don't know, I recall Swan as someone who (eventually) understands setups better than this.

Sure, 2 is included in my 1-3 count for exactly that reason.

What are you referring to when you're quoting "possible Traitor" like that?

[arishipshape]

Sorry I've been inactive, weekends are busy. I'll reread the challenged candidates and get back to you with a vote tonight. Anyone want to ask me anything?

[Glooble]

vote: DatSwan

[arishipshape]

OK I absolutely love the giant score board Vote Count thing - I feel closer to Kurt Russle than I ever had before.

I have just a ton of fun stuff I would like to speak about. As I mentioned, I did not want to do so prior to Joth finalizing a target. I will get it out when I get back to a computer.

Obviously...

Vote: Joth

I'm gonna let Datswan get back to us with this "fun stuff" he speaks of before I place a vote.

[MiX]

What are you referring to when you're quoting "possible Traitor" like that?

1) All the skum is within [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW]... which is either 2/8 or 3/8
2) Some amount of skum is within the same pool, and another is within [Joth, Mix, Galz, faust]

Why is it either 2/8 or 3/8?

Just separating the traitor out. Technically it is 3/8 either way.

The "seperating the traitor" part.


I also yearn to hear what Swan has to say.

[chairs]

Intent to vote swan. On mobile don’t want to accidental hammer will check back tomorrow

[faust]

I have figured out that information who I targeted last night is going to be relevant for the Psychologist.

So, I targeted gkrieg tonight, he did not perform an action.

[faust]

vote: DatSwan

Didn't you defend DatSwan earlier? What happened?

[faust]

Swan is at L-2.

[EFHW]

vote: DatSwan

Didn't you defend DatSwan earlier? What happened?

I wanted joth to pick someone else.  I did say I would vote him over joth.

[faust]

vote: DatSwan

Didn't you defend DatSwan earlier? What happened?

I wanted joth to pick someone else.  I did say I would vote him over joth.

So what makes joth towny?

[EFHW]

vote: DatSwan

Didn't you defend DatSwan earlier? What happened?

I wanted joth to pick someone else.  I did say I would vote him over joth.

So what makes joth towny?

I have a strong town read on him with no red flags. There are questions around DatSwan.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Let's actually look at these two in iso. Not hitting every post here, just stuff that stands out to me

joth:

RVS votes for Glooble, claims jester at the start, jokey stuff

Non-committal on the promoter claiming issue

This post where he wants to make very clear that his jester post was a joke is pretty scummy

Townreads datswan, for confusion over the setup

Scumreads me for my setup plan, so he is actually taking a stand. I feel like he is misrepresenting my stance in this post, though

His last point in his response to mix is a lot of words to say nothing

This vote switch seems a little knee-jerk, which is townier

This little walkback seems like he's trying to keep his options open

But he is pretty strongly defending faust, which leans on the townier side. OTOH I don't think ari's case against faust at this point has much traction, so he's not sticking his neck out too far

joth feels sassier in this game, on a reread, than he has in other games I've played with recently. Is that an alignment tell for him? Probably not

Is scum[/url this flippant about voting for someone they claim to have a townread on? Maybe, if they know they'll be townread for it

[url=http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19659.msg798708#msg798708]Then goes to vote for mix, then justifies his vote saying that the wagon was stalling. Not the worst reason, but also doesn't have anything to do with mix

More sass. Regardless of your alignment joth, you are entertaining to read here

Joth[/ur] does have a pretty consistent narrative behind his votes. If he is scum this is well constructed

[url=http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19659.msg798962#msg798962]joth is at one vote, with interest in voting from Galz, when he makes this "if you want to lynch me while I sleep" comment. Not great

Note that joth initially claims that he wasn't intending to target mix before spending quite awhile calling mix his biggest scumread

Another post where joth seems to feel an inordinate amount of pressure for the attention he's actually received (his point C). More likely to come from scum, I think

The big fight with Galz, I don't really think any of this is an alignment tell

Back on mix. He tunneled mix a lot on day one, and I think that joth is savvy enough to know that tunneling comes off as towny. More and more his read on mix is looking to me less genuine and more constructed

The fact that this is posed as a question and not a statement stands out to me, again I find more and more of joth's posting to be overly concerned/aware about the opinion of town as a whole. Maybe that's a natural feeling for the gladiator but some of it does go back to day one

Puts a lot of effort (where more than I remembered before rereading) on keeping open the possibility of scum!galz. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion, but I still feel that there's no way in hell scum!galz claims like he did, and joth looks like he still wants galz to be a viable challenge for him

Actually allows his mind to be swayed, though. Or maybe realized that the cause was hopeless. Or maybe knew ahead of time that it would fall through, and that a big emotional struggle looks towny

So I think this is basically the first time that joth has seriously commented at all on faust's alignment. For someone who's posted quite a bit this game, Joth has talked about surprisingly few people

The intent to challenge DatSwan is a little out of left field

At the end of all that, joth comes off as only mildly scummy, but scummier than I remember. In my most recent game with scum!joth, he did seem to get more active the more pressure was on his team, and I don't know what's more pressure-inducing than being a gladiator

Let's see what I get from DatSwan

Seems confused about whether there is a promoter. But if promoter is town scum might be legitimately confused about whether there is one.

Later clarifies that promoter here refers to "town promoter"

First post (several of his posts in) where he expresses any reads. Had previously expressed that he had been busy but there are quite a few setup-talk posts before this. I don't know, is scum this sloppy?

Then casts suspicion on me and mix for bringing up the promoter stuff, then votes for me because mix has more votes. Not great

This post seems a little more engaged

Big post. Analysis seems genuine, a lot of his logic is based on where people are on wagons, which is something that I disagree with but is also in character for DatSwan

Given that it's extremely unlikely at this point that joth and swan are partners, I think that swan coming to joth's defense here is town points

But then points out that joth could still be scum. His logic here is pretty fuzzy

Excited energy in these last posts sparing with Joseph, mildly towny

More setup confusion. About stuff that's harder to be confused about as scum

Argues against claiming pre-challenge, on the idea that joth might be scum. I see his point but also having town challenge a PR would be bad

This spliting of people into pools, while unhelpful, is consistent with what I know of town!Swan. It's a long post with no real reads, though

Well, here's a read

At this point I think I actually find this kind of thing towny

So looking back on everything, joth comes off as scummier and datswan as townier than I remembered. I'm still somewhat on the fence but I think it's enough for me to

Unvote

[MiX]

That's a big pile of effort that effectively says "I don't know, my gut tells me joth is scummy, look at posts!". That is, I'm not convinced ADK is being impartial here. But who cares about ADK's alignment now? I did see one thing that's weird:

@joth, what was #747 for? You never bring me up again, you just go right back to Galz where you were...

I'm keeping my vote. I'm stubborn like that.

[chairs]

I’m a big fan of the guy read but that came off as floundering to me. Floundering why? Good question.

Firmly in vote: datswan territory now

[jotheonah]

@joth, what was #747 for? You never bring me up again, you just go right back to Galz where you were...

Well a bunch of stuff happened. You got all towny. Galz's promoter claim took away some of my case on you. At some point today I just decided to proceed on the assumption that you and Galz are both town, because it was starting to feel like I was maybe doing some misguided tunneling. Am I still a little worried I got played by one or both of you? You bet. But, we are where we are. If you're buddying, you're doing it well.

[jotheonah]

At the end of all that, joth comes off as only mildly scummy, but scummier than I remember. In my most recent game with scum!joth, he did seem to get more active the more pressure was on his team, and I don't know what's more pressure-inducing than being a gladiator

I think this is an astute observation, but a stretch that it's alignment indicative in the way you suggest. It turns out being a gladiator is extremely stressful. But wouldn't it be less stressful for scum? They know who's on their team (except the Traitor, but that's a small chance). In any event it's a lot of pressure either way and if I'm a person who gets more active under pressure, well, then there I am either way.

[MiX]

@joth, what was #747 for? You never bring me up again, you just go right back to Galz where you were...

Well a bunch of stuff happened. You got all towny. Galz's promoter claim took away some of my case on you. At some point today I just decided to proceed on the assumption that you and Galz are both town, because it was starting to feel like I was maybe doing some misguided tunneling. Am I still a little worried I got played by one or both of you? You bet. But, we are where we are. If you're buddying, you're doing it well.

Still? Really? At this point I'm basically declaring to be an IC, I can't see anyone killing me anymore. But just as much as you should assume I'm town, I should assume you're town. I'm probably too overconfident in my reads, but at this point I simply want Swan to flip: I don't think we should allow him to get the setup wrong in so many ways at once, it'll limit his utility in later games. Also he's flat out scummier than you, no doubt.

At the end of all that, joth comes off as only mildly scummy, but scummier than I remember. In my most recent game with scum!joth, he did seem to get more active the more pressure was on his team, and I don't know what's more pressure-inducing than being a gladiator

I think this is an astute observation, but a stretch that it's alignment indicative in the way you suggest. It turns out being a gladiator is extremely stressful. But wouldn't it be less stressful for scum? They know who's on their team (except the Traitor, but that's a small chance). In any event it's a lot of pressure either way and if I'm a person who gets more active under pressure, well, then there I am either way.

I don't think anyone knows how the setup works anymore. No, scum don't get relieved, they get pressured to hell and back because they KNOW town targetted them, they KNOW they're the top scumread of at least 1 town, and by the looks for D1, they're the top scumread of more town as well. And for the love of god there can't be a traitor hiding anymore! Unless Galzria picked you, which is pretty weird considering we had the whole talk about me saying traitor should claim and not scum!promoter.

Can we kill Swan yet? This day is a mess and I want to sleep

[arishipshape]

Can we kill Swan yet? This day is a mess and I want to sleep

I'm gonna let Datswan get back to us with this "fun stuff" he speaks of before I place a vote.

[MiX]

Can we kill Swan yet? This day is a mess and I want to sleep

I'm gonna let Datswan get back to us with this "fun stuff" he speaks of before I place a vote.

Right. Forget what I said then.

Why are you in the shadows?

[arishipshape]

Why are you in the shadows?

I've had nothing to say. I offered for people to interrogate me:

Anyone want to ask me anything?

Nobody took me up on it.

I slightly townread Joth for his posts as gladiator, but really I'm just waiting for Datswan at this point.

[MiX]

Why are you in the shadows?

I've had nothing to say. I offered for people to interrogate me:

Anyone want to ask me anything?

Nobody took me up on it.

I slightly townread Joth for his posts as gladiator, but really I'm just waiting for Datswan at this point.

You should be proactive: reads don't fall from the sky. Also talking should make you easier to read: right now we basically only have your D1 posts. But it's a bit late to change that, the challenge will always speak louder than our individual actions for the rest of this day. I think.

Can someone wake up Swan?

[arishipshape]

Why are you in the shadows?

I've had nothing to say. I offered for people to interrogate me:

Anyone want to ask me anything?

Nobody took me up on it.

I slightly townread Joth for his posts as gladiator, but really I'm just waiting for Datswan at this point.

You should be proactive: reads don't fall from the sky. Also talking should make you easier to read: right now we basically only have your D1 posts. But it's a bit late to change that, the challenge will always speak louder than our individual actions for the rest of this day. I think.

Can someone wake up Swan?

Well guess what? I tried talking all the time and telling others to do so. I was all "It's always best for everyone to say everything!" Earned me scum points. I tried making a case against a scum read: earned me scumpoints. So, if shutting up is actually pro town, I guess I better do that. I am the number 1 talk all the time proponent: I am also town and don't want to get lynched, so that's why I'm being quiet. Yes, I know I can't get lynched today. Then again, I've been quiet long enough. I think I undid the scumpoints day 1 me earned, so it's time to be pro town once more. MiX, I'm a fan of ADK's analysis post, it seems like a nice amalgamation of information on the lynch candidates and a pro town move. Care to elaborate on why you think it's not impartial?

[faust]

reads don't fall from the sky.

Except if they are townreads on joth!

[Glooble]

This is, probably, extremely unlikely, but for the sake of completeness I feel I should mention it: Have we considered the possibility that joth and Galz are both scum and that entire fight was staged for our benefit?

[Glooble]

Imagine how epic that would be.

[MiX]

Imagine how epic that would be.

Really, really epic. But we don't need to think about it now, right?

Man, I thought I was done with joth when I got a really big townread on N1...now the IC's scumreading him...I feel useless. I'll put in effort I suppose.

[Galzria]

Why are you in the shadows?

I've had nothing to say. I offered for people to interrogate me:

Anyone want to ask me anything?

Nobody took me up on it.

I slightly townread Joth for his posts as gladiator, but really I'm just waiting for Datswan at this point.

You should be proactive: reads don't fall from the sky. Also talking should make you easier to read: right now we basically only have your D1 posts. But it's a bit late to change that, the challenge will always speak louder than our individual actions for the rest of this day. I think.

Can someone wake up Swan?

I poked him in the eyeball.

[Swowl]

I'll get to this momentarily... I have to go buy an eye patch

[arishipshape]

I'll get to this momentarily... I have to go buy an eye patch

May I have this in my signature? I see other people with funny quotes in theirs all the time. Any procedure I go through first?

[Swowl]

I'll get to this momentarily... I have to go buy an eye patch

May I have this in my signature? I see other people with funny quotes in theirs all the time. Any procedure I go through first?

lol go for it

[MiX]

I'll get to this momentarily... I have to go buy an eye patch

May I have this in my signature? I see other people with funny quotes in theirs all the time. Any procedure I go through first?

As much as I like the game, I think this is more important. That quote doesn't seem half as funny without Galzria's post, and then it's not short and sweet.

PPE 1: Eh.

[Swowl]

and apologies, but it is gonna be like realistically 4-5 hours or so before I am done with what I need. Not stalling, just quite busy this afternoon.

[Swowl]

I'll get to this momentarily... I have to go buy an eye patch

May I have this in my signature? I see other people with funny quotes in theirs all the time. Any procedure I go through first?

oh except technically you are not supposed to do it until this game has concluded.

[jotheonah]

Imagine how epic that would be.

Really, really epic. But we don't need to think about it now, right?

Man, I thought I was done with joth when I got a really big townread on N1...now the IC's scumreading him...I feel useless. I'll put in effort I suppose.

A common mistake is to think that ICs somehow magically have better reads than non-ICs. They do not.

[chairs]

Arguably an IC has worse reads since they have one less guaranteed Town member

[MiX]

Imagine how epic that would be.

Really, really epic. But we don't need to think about it now, right?

Man, I thought I was done with joth when I got a really big townread on N1...now the IC's scumreading him...I feel useless. I'll put in effort I suppose.

A common mistake is to think that ICs somehow magically have better reads than non-ICs. They do not.

I was currently scumreading everyone that thought you were scum, Galzria included. But now that an IC is also doing so, it means I should throw away my town!joth bias, because I know for certainty that town also scumreads him. But I understand this reaction.

Arguably an IC has worse reads since they have one less guaranteed Town member

I know, given I'm also an IC

[arishipshape]

Did I miss something? When did MiX become an IC? When he claimed VT?

[MiX]

Did I miss something? When did MiX become an IC? When he claimed VT?

Of course! And when I decided that I should stop trying to act like town and instead act to town's benefit. But that's what smileys are all about!

I'm procrastinating on my rereads as much as Swan is annoying me with his "Very Important Post" of his.

[jotheonah]

I guess all you have to do to be an IC these days is say you're an IC. As an IC, I should know.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry, just getting back into this. Will reread the two people now.

[Glooble]

Did I miss something? When did MiX become an IC? When he claimed VT?

He's honestly not. Because Galz outed himself as promoter to defend MiX, we can be nearly certain that if Galz is scum, MiX is also scum. Scum!Galz would have no reason to do that to protect town!Mix. But that doesn't cut both ways. Town!Galz could easily have come out in defense of scum!MiX if he strongly believed MiX was town.

[MiX]

Did I miss something? When did MiX become an IC? When he claimed VT?

He's honestly not. Because Galz outed himself as promoter to defend MiX, we can be nearly certain that if Galz is scum, MiX is also scum. Scum!Galz would have no reason to do that to protect town!Mix. But that doesn't cut both ways. Town!Galz could easily have come out in defense of scum!MiX if he strongly believed MiX was town.

I don't like how this is what people saw in Galz's claim. What I saw was joth gunning for him and Galz claiming to save himself, not me. But alas.

[EFHW]

Did I miss something? When did MiX become an IC? When he claimed VT?

I was wondering that too.

[chairs]

Did I miss something? When did MiX become an IC? When he claimed VT?

I was wondering that too.

About the same time I did - which is to say, not at all.

[Swowl]

OK, this is coming in 2 parts. Part 1 is below. Lets call Part 1 "Why Joth is Skum". Part 2 ("why swan is Town), will have to follow as I am out of time:

This is the end of Day 1 for reference:

Day 1 Final VC:
MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (5): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph2302, MiX
Joseph2302 (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, faust, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel


1) Joth's logic on the selection of them being the promoter:

If promoter is scum, I was either targeted (A) because MiX is town and scum thought I couldn’t resist challenging him, (B) because MiX is scum and scum thought I wouldn’t dare challenge him, or (C) because everyone has such a scumread on me that it doesn’t matter who I challenge because I’ll lose.

Anyway, MiX’s kicking in the door with shameless buddying feels consistent with B.

If promoter is town then I was obviously targeted by someone who thinks I’m scum and it’s basically also C.

So my best hope here is to seek a consensus target from town or else target MiX.

- They then in close posts thereafter continue to elaborate on the plan stating that they will be targeting MiX in 72 hours unless convinced otherwise.
- After they say this... Ari, Chairs, and Glooble all outright state it would be Joth over MiX.
- MiX states they would vote themselves, because they are VT. Which whether they are or not, I assume/hope is a lie. Town's only job in that situation is to stay alive. It doesn't matter how much you believe the other person is town.
- Right thereafter, ADK and Faust both also say they will go for Joth over MiX.
- Chairs then switches after the MiX claim of voting for self and says they would go MiX.

So a page after the plan is laid out based on isolating MiX unless a better option is presented we have 4 people saying they are gonna vote for Joth (plus MiX).

- Then there is some discussion and Galz claims promoter, also stating he thinks Joth is Skum.
- 100%, if Galz is Town, he went back and found Joth's top 3 stated SRs and picked them for the pool he announced for Joth. This makes sense for Town!Galz if Galz thinks Joth is skum, as I would assume Skum!Joth would include a buddy (or skum anyone for that matter) in there top SR list early on.

- By post #780 the current choices laid in from of Joth have been noted to be Galz or MiX. They then post this:

I never said I wasn't going to challenge you. I'm not going to challenge you right now.

You want me to challenge you before it's clear which one of us will win, because that gives you a 50/50 shot. Whereas if I wait until I have a clear idea of how everyone is going to vote I can choose to challenge you or not -- which gives you a 0% chance if I challenge you. So waiting is clearly pro-town and rushing is clearly pro-scum.

- The above is a fancy way of saying "shit - the two options I could go to I am for sure going to lose to, so I need more time to create another option".
- Then he pushes Galz a bit, which isn't really skummy because I also was/am suspicious a little of the claim... but still to the point of keeping options open.

- Lots of interaction with Galz and his claim. Nothing there I find odd, just that time is passed.

- States they have done a re read, and that they have chosen their target, and that they will be challenging in 4 hours.
- I then quote MiX for arbitrarily voting me for not speaking since the day started (a day ago). I ask them to "chill" because I had a meet over the weekend and could not find time.
- Then Joth... not MiX... responds to my comment, saying they will wait a little longer. All of this is before my DAMA posting stage, so I am not really sure, assuming I am correct, what it is Joth found from Day 1 re read that made him select me.

- Joth right there after posts this:

Should we have the claiming conversation before I make my challenge?

People in this town seem to place a lot of store in claims, so I really don't want to make a strong case on scum and then end up being the lynch because of some ridiculous fake claim.

- This reads, to me at least, as Joth is essentially claiming to be a PR. If Joth makes a strong case on someone, then that person claims a PR, and Joth is VT, that isn't a ridiculous claim... that is just someone claiming to be a PR.
   -If Joth is a PR and they make a case and that person claims the same PR, Town!Joth should not be worried - that is a great set up, as we either lynch the fake claimer (and then skum kills Joth), or we lynch Joth (skum kills someone) and then we still lynch the fake claimer. Either way, 100% we find skum there - and the read back value given Joth would control the speed at which they claim would be huge.
   -If Joth is skum, they would be worried about accidentally targeting a PR and dealing with the same situation from the skum side of things.
   -Also, there is the added benefit of getting people to claim out so skum knows their identity (like faust)

- Next, Joth says he is planning on challenging faust.
- Faust then claims Tracker (crazy when shit works out that way). As no one has CC'd faust at this point, I assume they are truthful.

- Joth states they cannot get on the GK wagon based on weak reasoning (which is fair).

- Now all my drunken posts happen. I stand by them, and in another post I will go over them. They are poorly worded, but I stand by the points that I was making.

- Right after that MiX jumps on me
- Right after that Joth intends to challenge me. Why is the weak reasoning vs me acceptable but not for GK? Could it be because many people stated they did not want to lynch GK, yet I appeared on many peoples lynch pool list? hmmmmm



OK that is my summary. If I were to make key points:

1) Joth should recieve 0 Town points for being selected by Galz (assuming it's Galz) until we determine whether or not Galz is Skum or Town. I am leaning Town on Galz (which is very strange for my mind to wrap itself around). If Galz is skum, then yes... Joth is most certainly town. But really, as paranoid as I want to be... Galz is probably Town. If Galz is Town it does not necessarily make Joth skum... but it sure as hell doesn't make him town.

2) Joth jumping around his potential challenge pool - the way he selected targets he only stood good chances against, the promotion of the claim concept before he issues challenges, and selecting me based on a few freekin posts I made that were (fair enough) hard to decipher... that is just like EXACTLY how skum would handle it in this situation.

3) If I were in Joth's shoes the play would be in my eyes to pick exactly who I thought to be the skummiest player alive, as that would give me the best chance of lynching skum. It shouldn't of mattered to Joth (more than selecting skum at least) who it was that was willing to vote for Joth vs the potential player.... Let's take this current situation. They selected me because they thought they stood a good chance vs me instead of vs someone else. Either Joth is town, and it is Town v Town, or Joth is Skum, and it is Town v Skum. Skum!Joth would focus on picking the player they could win against, whereas Town!Joth (or Town!Anyone) should focus on selecting skum.

4) Right now we are in a shitty situation, there are only two targets to choose from. Please look back and try to tell me that I am the skummiest of the lot. They could of selected an off-all-wagons player, they could of selected Galz, they could of selected ADK (the other main wagon D1)... any of those choices would of potentially given masses of more information then selecting me. However, since I had the unfortunate consequence of being on the Day 1 wagon of being on many peoples lynch pool list, they chose to instead jump on me for weak reasoning because it gave them a better chance to survive. That, right there... is NOT a town mind set in the selection process. It is a town mindset when it is between "you or the other guy", but in this scenario - JOTH GOT TO PICK THE OTHER GUY!



*Super post note that I will have no way of fitting into the other post so I am doing it now before I forget - I would expect that if Joth is skum, then skum would of hard bussed him. It could be 1 knowing they are doing it, or it could be two knowing they are doing it... but there is for sure one.
In Days to come I can see MiX getting heat. If MiX is skum they are EXACTLY the traitor, and even that is a stretch. If I get lynched, please don't lynch MiX before Joth*

[Swowl]

oh how silly of me I forgot the fun part...

I am the Town Aligned Psychologist

[jotheonah]

Oh ffs

If this is true, you should all lynch me because I’m VT. And also the unluckiest person on the freaking planet.

[jotheonah]

OR Swan is caught scum who wants to out a PR on his way out. I really really hope that’s it because otherwise... I mean seriously?

But I just want to point out, again, that Swan said he would not be claiming, which is part of the reason I picked him. Idk why on earth he would say that as a town PR.

[jotheonah]

Scum absolutely claims the last remaining town investigative role at this point. Maybe it’s better NOT to counterclaim. Let’s just lynch Swan. There’s no way he’s actually psychologist. Then we can keep our last cop hidden.

[Glooble]

It does seem remarkably unlikely.

Is there any reason not to push Swan to tell us who he targeted last night?

[Glooble]

Is the right play here to lynch joth, then if DatSwan is lying scum, have the real psychologist claim tomorrow, and we lynch DatSwan then?

[chairs]

Is the right play here to lynch joth, then if DatSwan is lying scum, have the real psychologist claim tomorrow, and we lynch DatSwan then?

I can see the logic here, but if we think swan is scum we should just lynch him now, right?

[EFHW]

Is the right play here to lynch joth, then if DatSwan is lying scum, have the real psychologist claim tomorrow, and we lynch DatSwan then?

If DatSwan is the psychologist, he should have hinted somewhere about his result by now.

[EFHW]

Is the right play here to lynch joth, then if DatSwan is lying scum, have the real psychologist claim tomorrow, and we lynch DatSwan then?

Lynching joth won't tell us if DatSwan is lying scum.

[EFHW]

oh how silly of me I forgot the fun part...

I am the Town Aligned Psychologist

Why wait so long to claim and why go the trouble of making a wall post on joth if you knew you were going to claim? Nothing in that post makes a stronger argument for your survival than a credible claim of a town pr does.

[EFHW]

... does would.

[jotheonah]

Also like, town-aligned psychologist is the only psychologist in the setup. And everyone claims town. So what a weird way to say that. Really emphasizing that town thing for no reason.

[EFHW]

vote count please

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 2.4

Uncleeurope's refrigerator broke on the night prior. He felt like control was slipping away, he had lost so much time, so much energy.

It was surprising how a meticulously engineered machine could crumble to pieces when a single cog refused to cool food to the desired temperature.

He had lost sight of what was truly important: The management of angry townsfolk.

With great power comes great responsibility.

But Uncleeurope didn't have power, he was a mere shadow whose every movement was cast by the whims of Light.

He may as well be a trained monkey.

He had no power, only responsibility.

jotheonah(2):	VS	DatSwan(5):
faust		MiX
DatSwan		jotheonah
		EFHW
		Glooble
		chairs

Not voting (5): arishipshape, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, A Drowned Kernel


With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day 2 ends 10th of May, 8:30 am FT.

[Swowl]

Also like, town-aligned psychologist is the only psychologist in the setup. And everyone claims town. So what a weird way to say that. Really emphasizing that town thing for no reason.

One of the first games i played of mafia we went to claims. I claimed in “slang” so to speak. Someone made a huge deal about “town wouldn’t use that verbiage if they have been reading it in their pm”.

So now i copy paste whenever i claim anything but VT.

[Swowl]

oh how silly of me I forgot the fun part...

I am the Town Aligned Psychologist

Why wait so long to claim and why go the trouble of making a wall post on joth if you knew you were going to claim? Nothing in that post makes a stronger argument for your survival than a credible claim of a town pr does.

The wall post was more a version of my Joth ISO i wanted to get out.

I did not plan on claiming as early as i did. I thought about it while posting the wall and decided i would... then forgot to do it. So i posted it right thereafter.

[Swowl]

Is the right play here to lynch joth, then if DatSwan is lying scum, have the real psychologist claim tomorrow, and we lynch DatSwan then?

If DatSwan is the psychologist, he should have hinted somewhere about his result by now.

I thought about doing this.
If i had a “can kill” result i would of claimed it already, obviously.
I have triple checked... the result i get comes back prior to any other night actions. So the night 1 result is pure.
I can IC a player that is alive.
I think it is best that i wait until the end of the day to do that, regardless of the lynch.

[arishipshape]

The way I see it, there's one psychologist and 3 scum that would totally claim psychologist if challenged. I would totally take those odds, but I'm gonna hold off my vote on the off chance the real psychologist claims, or to let Datswan say the results of N1 investigation.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Is the right play here to lynch joth, then if DatSwan is lying scum, have the real psychologist claim tomorrow, and we lynch DatSwan then?

If DatSwan is the psychologist, he should have hinted somewhere about his result by now.

I thought about doing this.
If i had a “can kill” result i would of claimed it already, obviously.
I have triple checked... the result i get comes back prior to any other night actions. So the night 1 result is pure.
I can IC a player that is alive.
I think it is best that i wait until the end of the day to do that, regardless of the lynch.

I can't possibly see the justification for waiting.

[Swowl]

Is the right play here to lynch joth, then if DatSwan is lying scum, have the real psychologist claim tomorrow, and we lynch DatSwan then?

If DatSwan is the psychologist, he should have hinted somewhere about his result by now.

I thought about doing this.
If i had a “can kill” result i would of claimed it already, obviously.
I have triple checked... the result i get comes back prior to any other night actions. So the night 1 result is pure.
I can IC a player that is alive.
I think it is best that i wait until the end of the day to do that, regardless of the lynch.

I can't possibly see the justification for waiting.

I don’t think, given the current player base that skum reads me, that me claiming it now would make them an IC until after i flip.
If i get lynched, i will claim prior to it happening. Then there is that IC and Faust. They can only kill one.

If Joth is lynched and they are town, my claim will mean little. I will still claim end of day today because of Faust. They will kill faust and everyone will lynch me tomorrow. But i will have another result to share. This is the worst case scenario.

If Joth is lynched and they are skum, i will claim prior to the end of day all the same. In that case they can kill who they choose, but between me faust and the other player there will still be 2 ICs.

Since today the field is limited to me or Joth, i find the IC factor less important than usual.

I would like to know if i should share my result from 3 players, in this order:

MiX
Galz
Faust

[Galzria]

I have reread fully in light of all current claims, and have made up my mind on vote choice. I’ll give it some time (tomorrow early afternoon at the latest) before laying out my thoughts, reasons & vote.

[faust]

I would like to know if i should share my result from 3 players, in this order:

MiX
Galz
Faust

I can't possibly see the justification for waiting.

[Swowl]

The way I see it, there's one psychologist and 3 scum that would totally claim psychologist if challenged. I would totally take those odds, but I'm gonna hold off my vote on the off chance the real psychologist claims, or to let Datswan say the results of N1 investigation.

I am the real psychologist.
And i said i will claim results.

I have stated my reasons for not claiming. What are your reasons for wanting me to claim?

[faust]

Vote: DatSwan

L-1

Now claim your result.

[MiX]

I would like to know if i should share my result from 3 players, in this order:

MiX
Galz
Faust

Why not?
This'll just be "can't kill"
He's IC so same as above

Overall yes for me, no for the others. Or you can simply claim, you're not living. Did you breadcrumb your result yet?

[faust]

Anyway the result of the investigation is not IC because there's a Godfather.

[faust]

Anyway the result of the investigation is not IC because there's a Godfather.

(or, might be, but for now I'm choosing to believe Galzria, which means there is)

[faust]

Anyway the result of the investigation is not IC because there's a Godfather.

(or, might be, but for now I'm choosing to believe Galzria, which means there is)

Oh wait... checking back I think Godfather doesn't work against the Psychologist? Seems odd, but fine I guess.

[Galzria]

Anyway the result of the investigation is not IC because there's a Godfather.

Godfather is hidden from Cop, not Psychologist, I believe.

[Swowl]

Anyway the result of the investigation is not IC because there's a Godfather.

Who's not reading the set up now?
Godfather has not effect on my role.

[Swowl]

Anyway the result of the investigation is not IC because there's a Godfather.

Godfather is hidden from Cop, not Psychologist, I believe.

ppe this

[Swowl]

Galz I am gonna do it anyways - but can I get your opinion just for the shit of it?

[Swowl]

Anyway the result of the investigation is not IC because there's a Godfather.

Godfather is hidden from Cop, not Psychologist, I believe.

ppe this

PPE more - you corrected yourself. mb.

[Swowl]

also before I jump and do it - faust, does the GF factor make a difference for you at all?

[Galzria]

I would like to know if i should share my result from 3 players, in this order:

MiX
Galz
Faust

I can't possibly see the justification for waiting.

[MiX]

I should have a list of people that got the setup wrong: it's growing! And I can't wait for me to get on it. Sadly lurkers like gkrieg have an advantage by not saying anything...

Cmooon, claim! Do it!

[faust]

This early D1 post is the final piece of the puzzle:

2) Joth is def the Jester.

A Psychologist would know that there is no Jester.

[faust]

also before I jump and do it - faust, does the GF factor make a difference for you at all?

No just fucking claim.

[Galzria]

This early D1 post is the final piece of the puzzle:

2) Joth is def the Jester.

A Psychologist would know that there is no Jester.

That’s on my list. So is #628,#629 & #632.

[MiX]

This early D1 post is the final piece of the puzzle:

2) Joth is def the Jester.

A Psychologist would know that there is no Jester.

So what did you think of his Jester claim?

[faust]

So what did you think of his Jester claim?

Not much? I think he would have done it as either alignment. I thought he was probably not the Lyncher for it.

[Galzria]

This early D1 post is the final piece of the puzzle:

2) Joth is def the Jester.

A Psychologist would know that there is no Jester.

That’s on my list. So is #628,#629 & #632.

Sorry, not #632 - I meant #634

[Swowl]

This early D1 post is the final piece of the puzzle:

2) Joth is def the Jester.

A Psychologist would know that there is no Jester.

That’s on my list. So is #628,#629 & #632.

Sorry, not #632 - I meant #634

Galz is literally the only player in this game that does not get to claim they did not read my Jester comment as sarcasm. Faust is close to it. I have barely played with MiX. Hint - it was sarcasm.

[Galzria]

This early D1 post is the final piece of the puzzle:

2) Joth is def the Jester.

A Psychologist would know that there is no Jester.

That’s on my list. So is #628,#629 & #632.

Sorry, not #632 - I meant #634

Galz is literally the only player in this game that does not get to claim they did not read my Jester comment as sarcasm. Faust is close to it. I have barely played with MiX. Hint - it was sarcasm.

Indeed, this is likely true enough - which is why it’s just a singular point of data, and not an incriminating statement.

[MiX]

Why are you not claiming? I wouldn't call that sarcasm but maybe, yeah.

[Galzria]

Why are you not claiming?

[chairs]

Why are you not claiming?

[Swowl]

Well tbh I didn't expect an answer from either faust or Galz, so 50% is a win and I kind of have no option at this point.
I think this is a mistake - but I also think there is a more than likely chance that Joth is skum, so I guess it almost weighs out.


Ari can't kill


I felt the best of my ability would be used to isolate players on the other large wagon after Joseph flipped town.
That would be Chairs, Galz, Ari, MiX.
As I have stated to infinity, I am town reading MiX.
The galz thing is kind of meta related, but I assumed if Galz was skum I would not wake up for Day 2 so I removed them.
That left Ari and Chairs.

I had to try to balance between there being one of either promoter, but not knowing which. In the end, I assumed that Ari was far more likely to be the challenged player than chairs, and if not still far more likely to be pursued in the following days than chairs.


If someone could unvote me to avoid an early hammer that would be bitchin. If I am going down, then whatever, but I have some notes I want to compile and post before that happens.

[MiX]

Ari? Okay...

When are you finished with your next big post?

[Swowl]

Ari? Okay...

When are you finished with your next big post?

when you finish with your small annoying ones

[Swowl]

Ari? Okay...

When are you finished with your next big post?

when you finish with your small annoying ones

too crass... I apologize. Just frustrated with the situation.

[Swowl]

Ari? Okay...

When are you finished with your next big post?

when you finish with your small annoying ones

too crass... I apologize. Just frustrated with the situation.

It is the middle of the night here. I will get it out tomorrow morning/afternoon.

[faust]

If someone could unvote me to avoid an early hammer that would be bitchin. If I am going down, then whatever, but I have some notes I want to compile and post before that happens.

I think you have stalled the game just enough.

[Galzria]

Faust, thoughts on 628/629/634?

If Swan is scum, he doesn’t know if we’re top left or bottom right, which is consistent with those posts - and would also cause an unknown number of Bodyguards. If Swan is Psychologist, then he should’ve known that top left wasn’t an option, and that there could not be two bodyguards.

So - honest mistake or scum indicative inconsistency?

[faust]

Faust, thoughts on 628/629/634?

If Swan is scum, he doesn’t know if we’re top left or bottom right, which is consistent with those posts - and would also cause an unknown number of Bodyguards. If Swan is Psychologist, then he should’ve known that top left wasn’t an option, and that there could not be two bodyguards.

So - honest mistake or scum indicative inconsistency?

What do you think?

[faust]

unvote

[Swowl]

Faust, thoughts on 628/629/634?

If Swan is scum, he doesn’t know if we’re top left or bottom right, which is consistent with those posts - and would also cause an unknown number of Bodyguards. If Swan is Psychologist, then he should’ve known that top left wasn’t an option, and that there could not be two bodyguards.

So - honest mistake or scum indicative inconsistency?

neither. check my other other set up posts. I made sure to hide my identity in all of them. (play dumb if you would)

OK now I am going to bed

[Swowl]

ah ppe.
unless people are here and want to talk?

I got like 20 minutes before I literally pass out.

[Galzria]

Faust, thoughts on 628/629/634?

If Swan is scum, he doesn’t know if we’re top left or bottom right, which is consistent with those posts - and would also cause an unknown number of Bodyguards. If Swan is Psychologist, then he should’ve known that top left wasn’t an option, and that there could not be two bodyguards.

So - honest mistake or scum indicative inconsistency?

What do you think?

The latter.

I don’t like lynching the only Psychologist claim though. Makes me really uncomfortable. But if he’s scum then the real Psychologist staying quiet here is 100% the correct play.

[Swowl]

Faust, thoughts on 628/629/634?

If Swan is scum, he doesn’t know if we’re top left or bottom right, which is consistent with those posts - and would also cause an unknown number of Bodyguards. If Swan is Psychologist, then he should’ve known that top left wasn’t an option, and that there could not be two bodyguards.

So - honest mistake or scum indicative inconsistency?

What do you think?

The latter.

I don’t like lynching the only Psychologist claim though. Makes me really uncomfortable. But if he’s scum then the real Psychologist staying quiet here is 100% the correct play.

this is 99% of the reason I didn't want to claim - because I knew this would be the mindset

[Galzria]

This early D1 post is the final piece of the puzzle:

2) Joth is def the Jester.

A Psychologist would know that there is no Jester.

So what did you think of his Jester claim?

Circling back to this, this is a big point I had marking Joth as scum - it’s a claim that discourages people from lynching him that he would know he could make without being countered - and he could judge reactions to try and guess at which town bloc was rolled - as there could potentially be upwards of four town players that knew this claim to be untrue.

[MiX]

This early D1 post is the final piece of the puzzle:

2) Joth is def the Jester.

A Psychologist would know that there is no Jester.

So what did you think of his Jester claim?

Circling back to this, this is a big point I had marking Joth as scum - it’s a claim that discourages people from lynching him that he would know he could make without being countered - and he could judge reactions to try and guess at which town bloc was rolled - as there could potentially be upwards of four town players that knew this claim to be untrue.

You're hitting every point of why I thought he was scum D1. But Psychologist claim is just...soooo convenient. How would it be 4?

[Galzria]

This early D1 post is the final piece of the puzzle:

2) Joth is def the Jester.

A Psychologist would know that there is no Jester.

So what did you think of his Jester claim?

Circling back to this, this is a big point I had marking Joth as scum - it’s a claim that discourages people from lynching him that he would know he could make without being countered - and he could judge reactions to try and guess at which town bloc was rolled - as there could potentially be upwards of four town players that knew this claim to be untrue.

You're hitting every point of why I thought he was scum D1. But Psychologist claim is just...soooo convenient. How would it be 4?

Sorry, technically 3 town aligned. In my head Lyncher Doctor is (was) basically a town PR with a self wincon that was slightly anti-town (there are plenty of worse third-party wincons).

[Swowl]

ok I am gonna leave yall to play with yourselves.

Mix - as you are tied for my primary push candidate, I would suggest you go re read some of my games.


Top picks for info IMO would be:

Skum - LOST Mafia
Town - Czech Mafia

[faust]

Okay, I made up my mind.

Vote: DatSwan

Further discussion only serves to out the real Psychologist. The people around who have already claimed should finish this off. So Galzria, can I ask you to hammer?

[MiX]

ok I am gonna leave yall to play with yourselves.

Mix - as you are tied for my primary push candidate, I would suggest you go re read some of my games.


Top picks for info IMO would be:

Skum - LOST Mafia
Town - Czech Mafia

Thanks! But I'm only rereading joth here due to finite time. I'll consider these for future games tho.

[SpaceAnemone]

Sorry for my unannounced VLA! It was a holiday here in the UK yesterday, and I ended up not being near my computer all day, which was unexpected and lots of fun. I haven't had a chance to read anything posted since my last comment, but I'll catch up over the course of today when I can.

[MiX]

Why catch up when you can hammer? 

Swan's Psycho, ari can't kill, faust is Tracker, gkrieg didn't target, Swan L-1. Galz promoter, joth VT, MiX VT to gather the rest of the info.

[EFHW]

Is the right play here to lynch joth, then if DatSwan is lying scum, have the real psychologist claim tomorrow, and we lynch DatSwan then?

If DatSwan is the psychologist, he should have hinted somewhere about his result by now.

I thought about doing this.
If i had a “can kill” result i would of claimed it already, obviously.
I have triple checked... the result i get comes back prior to any other night actions. So the night 1 result is pure.
I can IC a player that is alive.
I think it is best that i wait until the end of the day to do that, regardless of the lynch.

What advantage is there in waiting?

[EFHW]

Sorry, didn't realize I was on p 2

[arishipshape]

Exhibit A: Datswan copy pastes claims.

So now i copy paste whenever i claim anything but VT.

Exhibit B: Psychologist would receive a result of "Cannot Kill" (I'm to lazy to quote the original post and trim it down, so have a regular quote)

"Each night you may target a player to investigate. You will receive a result of “Can Kill” if they are capable of killing a player at night but have not yet done so. If they cannot kill, or if they have already killed someone, you will receive a result of “Cannot Kill.” This investigation resolves before the night’s kill.

You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive."

Exhibit C:

Ari can't kill

If Datswan copy pasted, he would have said "Arishipshape Cannot Kill". Not "Ari can't kill". We know he is aware people can make a stink about this and copypastes to avoid it. Ergo, he is not the psychologist.

Intent to hammer.

I've never hammered on purpose before: how long am I supposed to wait before hammering?

[jotheonah]

Kinda up to you.

Claim is claimed.

Space is re-reading and wants to share thoughts. Swan claims to want to post more.

[MiX]

Like this:

Vote: Swan

Alternatively you can set some time, but it depends if you want to hear from Swan before the hammer.

PPE 1: Oh I suggest you wait for Space.

[arishipshape]

Alright, waiting for space.

[faust]

Alright, waiting for space.

I think it's fine to go ahead. Space can catch up during the night and it didn't seem like they had something they specifically wanted to say now and I think it's better to not give town more chances of accidentally revealing their roles.

[faust]

Absolutely hammer now. I don't want to talk about this stuff because it kind of breaches the rules but something in your post made me realize that Swan is 100% scum.

[MiX]

Rules? Now I need to see the end of this game!

Okay, you can hammer 

[arishipshape]

I’m going to trust the uncounterclaimed tracker.

Vote: Datswan.

[MiX]

Good night everyone! Boy I really hopd he's scum. I'll need to reread joth...again...like N1...but oh well.

[jotheonah]

Also really hope he’s scum!

[EFHW]

Good night everyone! Boy I really hopd he's scum. I'll need to reread joth...again...like N1...but oh well.

You won't need to reread joth if DatSwan flips scum. This seems like a possible scumslip if it's a town flip.

[jotheonah]

Good night everyone! Boy I really hopd he's scum. I'll need to reread joth...again...like N1...but oh well.

You won't need to reread joth if DatSwan flips scum. This seems like a possible scumslip if it's a town flip.

True. The chance that Swan and I are both scum is very small.

[MiX]

Good night everyone! Boy I really hopd he's scum. I'll need to reread joth...again...like N1...but oh well.

You won't need to reread joth if DatSwan flips scum. This seems like a possible scumslip if it's a town flip.

Huh. Good point. But he might not be scum...

Oh and please don't read it as a scumslip, otherwise we'll have to do D1 all over again. I liked the general townread I got from everyone today.

[Galzria]

Okay, I made up my mind.

Vote: DatSwan

Further discussion only serves to out the real Psychologist. The people around who have already claimed should finish this off. So Galzria, can I ask you to hammer?

Sorry, this was almost 1:00am my time. I had gone to sleep before you asked.

But yeah. Was Ari’s vote officially hammer? If not, vote: Swan

[jotheonah]

what a long twilight...

[Glooble]

What time zone are the mods in again?

[Galzria]

What time zone are the mods in again?

I believe LaLight is closer to European time zones than US time zones.

[LaLight]

Thread Locked. Sorry for the long wait, I am in another city with shitty connection.

[LaLight]

Vote Count 2.final

jotheonah(1):	VS	DatSwan(7):
DatSwan		jotheonah
		MiX
		EFHW
		Glooble
		chairs
		faust
		arishipshape

Not voting (4): gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, A Drowned Kernel


With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

[LaLight]

After LaLight spent 12 hours trying to parse the code Uncleeurope made for vote counts, the day can finally be over. But what about DatSwan?

DatSwan was brutally lynched. He was a goon.

Night 2 start now and ends in 48 hours, 9th of May, 12:30 pm ft.

I am in another city until 11th of May, so, please, be tolerant to pauses.

[Uncleeurope]

Uncleeurope was disappointed. He had hoped he could find a peaceful way to gain control of the game by making a voting layout so convoluted that LaLight would be forced into leaving him with the control.

He had been outsmarted once again by LaLight's genius and persistence.

"Oh well," Uncleeurope mumbled, "I will just have to move on from that plan."

"Maybe I could talk to Arishipshape the Semi-Elite Bodyguard, he might be able to provide his combat training to do what has to be do–" he paused and then lowered his voice. "Erm, to weigh in on what I should do."

And with that statement successfully stumbled through, Uncleeurope headed towards Ari's primary hangout with questionable motives in mind.

"Hmm, he seems dead," was all Uncleeurope could muster as a reply to the corpse that lay before him.

"This just isn't my day."

Day Three has started!

Not voting (10): chairs, jotheonah, MiX, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Glooble, Galzria, faust, SpaceAnemone, EFHW


With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends SOMETIME LATER THAN NOW

Thread Unlocked.

[jotheonah]

So we caught scum. Take that everybody who didn't like how I played the gladiator role.

So it sort of looks like Ari bodyguarded faust who scum targeted? That's kind of the only thing that makes sense here. I guess there's no reason for faust not to tell us who he tracked. And then the real Psychologist can claim IFF their results, combined with faust's, lead to an obvious lynch?

[jotheonah]

Unfortunately the flips and claims still don't tell us definitively whether Galzria is scum promoter or town promoter. But we're 1/5 to catch scum, and if you take faust and I out of that calculation we're 1/4 to lynch scum.

If we massclaim, Psychologist and Vengeful Townie are either ICs or CC'd, which gives us 50 percent to find scum. Assuming no counterclaims, that's 4 ICs and 2 scum in a town of 10 -- 1 in 3 chance of lynching scum. Also in the case where Vengeful is counterclaimed and we lynch the wrong one, we get a town vig shot on the other one, as long as we make them hammer each other. So Vengeful can really easily be IC, but then they do more or less lose their power.

[jotheonah]

Not saying this is a good plan or that people should do it or not. Just teasing it out since I already claimed VT so it's safe for me to do so.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Not saying this is a good plan or that people should do it or not. Just teasing it out since I already claimed VT so it's safe for me to do so.

I think it's a good plan

[MiX]

It's probably mass claim time, but I didn't really bother to think about this, too busy celebrating! Yeeeeeeeeah swan's dead, woooooooo!

8-2, so we have a total of...2 possible mislynches? right? 4 ICs means we're 4-2 now...hmm...numbers are failing me. Ah, we have 6 ICs, so...we win?


Okay, let's take a look at what we know:

- faust is tracker, so IC
- joth is IC
- Galz is probably IC, and if he's not we'll figure it out soon enough (?)
- I'm totally IC, unless somone has a problem with this?
- Lynchee is IC, and they're still alive
- Psychologist is IC
- Vengeful Townie is IC

So that's like 7 of us! Hahahaha! Fear scum, for we have already won! Can anyone find great flaws in this? We basically have an overflow of ICs here!

PPE 2: Yeah, basically that, plus everyone should believe me here right?

[A Drowned Kernel]

That you're an IC? Why?

[MiX]

That you're an IC? Why?

Because why not? We don't need this as long as I'm right about who Lynchee is, but still, it would make all of our lives much better. Also I believe this is what we determined EoD1 and SoD2, right?

(End of Day 1 and Start of Day 2)

[Glooble]

MiX and Galz are probably town but neither of them is an IC.

[MiX]

MiX and Galz are probably town but neither of them is an IC.

Vote: Glooble, you've been scumreading me for far too long! Not taking that anymore, that's for sure.

[jotheonah]

Do we know that the lynchee knows they're lynchee? I kind of assumed they didn't.

[Glooble]

I also agree with the claiming plan.

PPE1: I’m not scumreading you MiX, I literally just said you’re probably town.

[jotheonah]

It's probably mass claim time, but I didn't really bother to think about this, too busy celebrating! Yeeeeeeeeah swan's dead, woooooooo!

8-2, so we have a total of...2 possible mislynches? right? 4 ICs means we're 4-2 now...hmm...numbers are failing me. Ah, we have 6 ICs, so...we win?


Okay, let's take a look at what we know:

- faust is tracker, so IC
- joth is IC
- Galz is probably IC, and if he's not we'll figure it out soon enough (?)
- I'm totally IC, unless somone has a problem with this?
- Lynchee is IC, and they're still alive
- Psychologist is IC
- Vengeful Townie is IC

So that's like 7 of us! Hahahaha! Fear scum, for we have already won! Can anyone find great flaws in this? We basically have an overflow of ICs here!

PPE 2: Yeah, basically that, plus everyone should believe me here right?

Actually this post is pretty scummy.

[MiX]

That was a bit...fast...I'm sorry...

Unvote, can you tell I'm kinda scumreading you Glooble?

Do we know that the lynchee knows they're lynchee? I kind of assumed they didn't.

I do! And hopefully it's not you!

PPE 2: Yeah I know Glooble, sorry, I read it too fast.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Do we know that the lynchee knows they're lynchee? I kind of assumed they didn't.

I pretty sure they don't

[jotheonah]

Do we know that the lynchee knows they're lynchee? I kind of assumed they didn't.

There's no lynchee role PM in the opening post. Where is this info coming from?

[Galzria]

Sweet - I’ll assume Ari died protecting a player, as he should’ve been in scum’s potential mislynch list for today.

I’m also taking Gkrieg as an IC for today, unless the Psychologist reports him as scum as that should’ve been the Psychologist’s target last night (Faust confirmed he didn’t do anything N1 so if he’s scum he still would’ve given a pure result to the Psychologist). If I’m wrong, obviously the Psychologist shouldn’t correct me (unless they found scum elsewhere, obviously)

Faust should keep his tracker information to himself here, at least for the time being, unless he tracked a person that targeted him (and isn’t Ari), as the Psychologist wouldn’t have targeted Faust, and thus the player in question here would have to be scum.

Obviously I can still potentially be scum to everyone else, but lynching me today would be a mistake, as you can force lynch me tomorrow (Gladiator challenges me) if it came down to it - but any scum lynch today verifies my claim.

MiX I still very much believe to be town, based on his posts regarding concerns/mistated beliefs about being in the upper right quadrant - something scum would know isn’t true.

Joth should also be removed from the lynch pool for today, as it’s not SUPER likely that scum!Joth challenged scum!Swan. Not impossible, but not likely.

That leaves: Chairs, ADK, Glooble, Space, EFHW as my primary suspects for today. I’m off to work, but I’ll start my rereads later tonight.

[MiX]

Actually I just realized Psychologist claim on anyone who isn't conf!town ends the game right here and right now. That is, if Psychologist targetted someone N1 that isn't conf!town (or swan, I guess ), they should claim: this would give us...6 ICs? In total, which is enough.

Also, I only have a hunch on who Lynchee is, but I think it's a pretty strong one.

[jotheonah]

Actually I just realized Psychologist claim on anyone who isn't conf!town ends the game right here and right now. That is, if Psychologist targetted someone N1 that isn't conf!town (or swan, I guess ), they should claim: this would give us...6 ICs? In total, which is enough.

Also, I only have a hunch on who Lynchee is, but I think it's a pretty strong one.

How is speculating on the identity of the lynchee at all helpful?

[MiX]

Actually I just realized Psychologist claim on anyone who isn't conf!town ends the game right here and right now. That is, if Psychologist targetted someone N1 that isn't conf!town (or swan, I guess ), they should claim: this would give us...6 ICs? In total, which is enough.

Also, I only have a hunch on who Lynchee is, but I think it's a pretty strong one.

How is speculating on the identity of the lynchee at all helpful?

If we knew exactly who Lynchee was, we would win right now. That's mostly it, really.

Vote: EFHW

[jotheonah]

Actually I just realized Psychologist claim on anyone who isn't conf!town ends the game right here and right now. That is, if Psychologist targetted someone N1 that isn't conf!town (or swan, I guess ), they should claim: this would give us...6 ICs? In total, which is enough.

Also, I only have a hunch on who Lynchee is, but I think it's a pretty strong one.

Someone who a mild scum read has a strong hunch about =/= IC. Probably the worst use of "IC" I've ever seen.

[jotheonah]

MiX, you may as well share your hunch and your reasons for it. Not sure why you're holding back. If we agree with you that's useful PoE.

[MiX]

Actually I just realized Psychologist claim on anyone who isn't conf!town ends the game right here and right now. That is, if Psychologist targetted someone N1 that isn't conf!town (or swan, I guess ), they should claim: this would give us...6 ICs? In total, which is enough.

Also, I only have a hunch on who Lynchee is, but I think it's a pretty strong one.

Someone who a mild scum read has a strong hunch about =/= IC. Probably the worst use of "IC" I've ever seen.

Fine, fine, geeez, just excited that we'll get a bunch of ICs. I agree that Lynchee will never be an IC, just town

MiX, you may as well share your hunch and your reasons for it. Not sure why you're holding back. If we agree with you that's useful PoE.

I would rather wait for scum to wake up first. No reason not to, right? Also it's only useful if we do the massclaim, which I believe...is not necessary. Because scum can't claim PRs otherwise they enter a terrible conflict. I'll use the hunch when voting, which will make it obvious, but no need for me to say it.

[Glooble]

Vote Count 1.final


MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (5): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph2302, MiX
Joseph2302 (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, faust, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel

Not voting (0):


With 14 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

vote:chairs

It seems likely that at the end of day 1 when the main two lynch options were joth and Joseph, there would be at least one scum on each. That would make either chairs or MiX scum. And I really do think MiX is likely town.

[jotheonah]

what about just the vengeful townie claiming? That claim is basically guaranteed an IC since, as I said before, if we have a counterclaim we just make whichever one we don't lynch promise to hammer the other one. Is that more or less useful than letting them stay hidden and getting a possible vig shot if and only if we mislynch them (and no value if they're nightkilled)? It seems more useful to me.

[jotheonah]

Especially because, if the vig shot misses, that's pretty bad for us.

[MiX]

PRs can just claim when we decide to lynch them, no reason to claim before. This means we don't have to out Psychologist nor Vengeful Town. But it's the same either way given scum will never kill the vig...

So yes, I agree that Vengeful Townie should just claim.


Glooble's case is...good!

Vote: chairs

[jotheonah]

Gaining ICs proactively has value since it gives us more data to reread and find scum.

[jotheonah]

MiX's continued attempts to will his way into IC status really bother me. Like, that is not a crazy thing for scum to be trying to do at this juncture. If we've all made it clear that PoE is the way we're gonna play this, scum wants to get eliminated from that list as definitively as possible.

What if MiX is scum and his whole lynchee thing is just a gambit to get him and his partner both on the quote-unquote IC list and the reason he's stalling with that info is because he wants to make sure he's really clear before he risks tying him and his partner together.

[A Drowned Kernel]

MiX's continued attempts to will his way into IC status really bother me. Like, that is not a crazy thing for scum to be trying to do at this juncture. If we've all made it clear that PoE is the way we're gonna play this, scum wants to get eliminated from that list as definitively as possible.

What if MiX is scum and his whole lynchee thing is just a gambit to get him and his partner both on the quote-unquote IC list and the reason he's stalling with that info is because he wants to make sure he's really clear before he risks tying him and his partner together.

It's plausible. More likely something that I would be willing to consider at LyLo, though.

vote: chairs

[faust]

Glooble's case is...good!

Vote: chairs

No it's terrible.

[MiX]

Glooble's case is...good!

Vote: chairs

No it's terrible.

Awww...

Vote: EFHW

[faust]

I feel like the Psychologist has largely outlived their usefulness and should probably claim. I mean unless all their targets are dead or something.

[Galzria]

what about just the vengeful townie claiming? That claim is basically guaranteed an IC since, as I said before, if we have a counterclaim we just make whichever one we don't lynch promise to hammer the other one. Is that more or less useful than letting them stay hidden and getting a possible vig shot if and only if we mislynch them (and no value if they're nightkilled)? It seems more useful to me.

I could maybe see value in this - but not as an “out-of-the-gate” claim. Keeps scum more on their toes today if they don’t know when or from whom the claim will come.

[faust]

Anyways Vote: Glooble I am ready for this.

I have another negative result. So I know one more player who's not Psychologist. I kind of don't want to claim who right now.

[jotheonah]

Glooble might be MiX's most likely partner in my MiX-is-scum scenario, but I'm still largely townreading him. His case on chairs is fine but uninspired.

[EFHW]

I feel like the Psychologist has largely outlived their usefulness and should probably claim. I mean unless all their targets are dead or something.

That's so sad! Maybe I can enjoy retirement.

I do have a positive result.  Thinking about the best way to sort out mafia from Vengeful Townie.

[MiX]

Well Unvote

Whoever is Vengeful Townie should claim, obviously. Saying that you have a positive result is not ideal but hopefully it doesn't matter.

[EFHW]

What do you mean? Isn't this my very reason for existing?

I'll just say who it is and if they are scum maybe there is some tiny chance the vengeful townie won't get outed.

Space can kill.

[Glooble]

What do you mean? Isn't this my very reason for existing?

I'll just say who it is and if they are scum maybe there is some tiny chance the vengeful townie won't get outed.

Space can kill.

Don't see how this ends without the Vengeful townie getting outed, but I also don't see how we don't catch scum today. Space will claim Vengeful because literally nothing else exonerates them. Then if Space is scum the real Vengeful townie will counterclaim. We lynch whichever one we think is scummier, and force the other one to hammer. Either way scum dies.

Or no one counterclaims and Space is yet another IC.

[MiX]

Just that...well it doesn't matter. Vengeful Townie should claim and all that. I guess you already got your result so saying what it is affects nothing.

PPE 1: I guess Glooble's not Vengeful Townie. Who is?

[EFHW]

That's what I've been thinking.  They'll be IC but won't get to use their power.

[EFHW]

That response was to Glooble.

[Glooble]

That's what I've been thinking.  They'll be IC but won't get to use their power.

I guess that's how we don't catch scum today. Oops.

[MiX]

Odds + scumreads should mean we catch scum today...but I guess not 100%.

[jotheonah]

Well it was almost certainly better to wait for a Vengeful Townie claim, this is good news.

[EFHW]

Well it was almost certainly better to wait for a Vengeful Townie claim, this is good news.

No, it really isn't any different to wait or not wait.

[MiX]

Vote: Space, odds are on our side.

[EFHW]

No, don't do that! Let's hear the claims. The odds aren't that good.

[MiX]

They're technically better than 50/50...? But fiiiiine

Unvote

[jotheonah]

Well it was almost certainly better to wait for a Vengeful Townie claim, this is good news.

No, it really isn't any different to wait or not wait.

If we had waited, and Space had claimed Vengeful Townie, and no one had counterclaimed, you wouldn't have had to claim and could get another result tomorrow night.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Wait, why didn't you target gkrieg?

[EFHW]

I thought Space was more likely to be a center of controversy than gkrieg. An innocent result on gkrieg wouldn't have ic'd him bc there's still a chance of traitor.

[EFHW]

Well it was almost certainly better to wait for a Vengeful Townie claim, this is good news.

No, it really isn't any different to wait or not wait.

If we had waited, and Space had claimed Vengeful Townie, and no one had counterclaimed, you wouldn't have had to claim and could get another result tomorrow night.

Would you claim as vengeful townie with no one else claiming? But, yeah, maybe.

[jotheonah]

So to summarize (assuming, of course, no one counterclaims EFHW)

arishipshape - dead, town, bodyguard
DatSwan - dead, scum, goon
chairs -
jotheonah - most likely town, claimed VT
MiX - , claimed VT
A Drowned Kernel -
gkrieg13 -
mcmcsalot - dead, town, VT
Glooble -
Galzria - most likely town, claimed promoter
Faust - IC, Tracker
Joseph2302 - dead, town, lyncher-doctor
SpaceAnemone - either scum or vengeful
EFHW - IC (pending counterclaim), Psychologist

So the lynchpool, such as it is, is:

chairs
MiX*
ADK
gkrieg
Glooble
Space

+ Galz and joth if you wanna get feisty

The pool of people who could plausibly claim vengeful townie and haven't already checked in: [Space, gkrieg, chairs]

[jotheonah]

Well it was almost certainly better to wait for a Vengeful Townie claim, this is good news.

No, it really isn't any different to wait or not wait.

If we had waited, and Space had claimed Vengeful Townie, and no one had counterclaimed, you wouldn't have had to claim and could get another result tomorrow night.

Would you claim as vengeful townie with no one else claiming? But, yeah, maybe.

Well, yeah. I was literally just arguing that that person should claim.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Who did you check N1?

[EFHW]

Who did you check N1?

joth

[jotheonah]

Who did you check N1?

joth

Ok, now I'm comfortable calling myself an IC.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Who did you check N1?

joth

That does remove the possibility of a particularly far-fetched scenario

[MiX]

To add to joth's post, we know that Space will claim Vengeful because there's literally no reason not to, so we're waiting on gkrieg and chairs.

[faust]

Odds + scumreads should mean we catch scum today...but I guess not 100%.

We'll catch scum if we just lynch Glooble.

[Glooble]

Odds + scumreads should mean we catch scum today...but I guess not 100%.

We'll catch scum if we just lynch Glooble.

You'll be sorely disappointed.

[faust]

Anyway I think before we lynch anyone the actual ICs should decide who Galzria should target.

[jotheonah]

Anyway I think before we lynch anyone the actual ICs should decide who Galzria should target.

Do I count?

[faust]

Anyway I think before we lynch anyone the actual ICs should decide who Galzria should target.

Do I count?

No. We're doing this for the scenario where Galz is scum Promoter. In this the only other scum is a Traitor, so EFHW's result on you is irrelevant.

[MiX]

Anyway I think before we lynch anyone the actual ICs should decide who Galzria should target.

Do I count?

No. We're doing this for the scenario where Galz is scum Promoter. In this the only other scum is a Traitor, so EFHW's result on you is irrelevant.

I would assume Galz could be Traitor...

[jotheonah]

Anyway I think before we lynch anyone the actual ICs should decide who Galzria should target.

Do I count?

No. We're doing this for the scenario where Galz is scum Promoter. In this the only other scum is a Traitor, so EFHW's result on you is irrelevant.

So this is a scenario, I, as a Traitor who knows the identity of the scum team, decides to challenge DatSwan with zero pressure or reason to do so? Come on.

[jotheonah]

Anyway I think before we lynch anyone the actual ICs should decide who Galzria should target.

Do I count?

No. We're doing this for the scenario where Galz is scum Promoter. In this the only other scum is a Traitor, so EFHW's result on you is irrelevant.

So this is a scenario, I, as a Traitor who knows the identity of the scum team, decides to challenge DatSwan with zero pressure or reason to do so? Come on.

I mean, I guess it's not totally insane. Would be ballsy AF though. I'm actually kind of flattered you think I'd do that.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Anyway I think before we lynch anyone the actual ICs should decide who Galzria should target.

Do I count?

No. We're doing this for the scenario where Galz is scum Promoter. In this the only other scum is a Traitor, so EFHW's result on you is irrelevant.

I would assume Galz could be Traitor...

If Galz was traitor, joth would be cleared by EFHW's N1 result

[Glooble]

The lynch should probably get a say as well, since if they flip town they'll be an IC.

[chairs]

I’m a VT

[jotheonah]

Hmmm. So this is a scenario where Galz, as traitor, claims town promoter to signal his identity to his team (since they know there's no town promoter). That's actually... I hadn't thought of that. It's kind of brilliant. I mean, what better way to let them know? Of course, if I had chosen the promoter instead of the Goon, he'd be in a lot of trouble today.

[MiX]

Hmmm. So this is a scenario where Galz, as traitor, claims town promoter to signal his identity to his team (since they know there's no town promoter). That's actually... I hadn't thought of that. It's kind of brilliant. I mean, what better way to let them know? Of course, if I had chosen the promoter instead of the Goon, he'd be in a lot of trouble today.

What the hell that's all we talked about D1 how could you not know this we discussed this to god knows where all of D1 we even had to stop because claiming was bad because it let traitor to claim that was mcmc's case on me which started the whole wagon on me and...

And...no way! Is this really the first time you acknowledge this?

[jotheonah]

Day 1 setup talk has a tendency to go over my head. Once I have firsthand experience with the setup it's a little more tangible. I actually have no memory of discussing this.

where is gkrieg?

[gkrieg13]

Sorry, just getting here then leaving again. Been busy at the end of the semester, then wasn't around when the lynch of Datswan happened, need to reread stuff but don't have the time and energy, so basically I'll probably not reread the whole thread.

[jotheonah]

NOW I'm re-reading day 1. And boy, Galz as traitor and MiX as promoter is seeming really plausible.

(A) MiX was accused several times day 1 of coaxing the traitor into claiming promoter
(B) Galz claimed promoter when it looked like I was set on challenging MiX

[jotheonah]

Sorry, just getting here then leaving again. Been busy at the end of the semester, then wasn't around when the lynch of Datswan happened, need to reread stuff but don't have the time and energy, so basically I'll probably not reread the whole thread.

Yes, but are you or are you not the Vengeful Townie?

[jotheonah]

No, scum promoter can safely fakeclaim town promoter since there's no one to counterclaim them. And how would we go about "forcing" a promoter claim?

They would get lynched once Traitor flips. Vice-versa if Traitor's the one who claims. To answer your question: I am not Promoter, if this wasn't obvious. I somewhat encourage everyone to do the same but I doubt people will

Imagine reading this as the traitor if you knew that MiX was, in fact, scum promoter. It would pretty much read "Please claim town promoter so we know who you are"

[Glooble]

Back to vote: MiX then.

[EFHW]

I'd like to hear faust's case on Glooble.

[Glooble]

I'd like to hear faust's case on Glooble.

As would I.

[Glooble]

Can I guess though? I have a guess.

[Glooble]

My guess is that faust thinks I’m the traitor and my accidental VT softclaim was a way of keeping the other scum from accidentally killing me.

[Glooble]

MiX is simply the best lynch for today. Because if he’s scum, then we caught scum, and if he’s town Galz becomes a true IC. Well, nearly a true IC. I seriously doubt scum!promoter Galz claims to save town!Mix, but I guess it’s possible he’d do it just as a gambit to throw us off the trail.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry, just getting here then leaving again. Been busy at the end of the semester, then wasn't around when the lynch of Datswan happened, need to reread stuff but don't have the time and energy, so basically I'll probably not reread the whole thread.

Yes, but are you or are you not the Vengeful Townie?

Oh, no.

[Galzria]

vote: Glooble

[Glooble]

vote: Glooble

Big surprise there.

[Glooble]

Oh, I forgot the best reason to vote MiX- if he flips scum promoter we just win.

[A Drowned Kernel]

MiX is simply the best lynch for today. Because if he’s scum, then we caught scum, and if he’s town Galz becomes a true IC. Well, nearly a true IC. I seriously doubt scum!promoter Galz claims to save town!Mix, but I guess it’s possible he’d do it just as a gambit to throw us off the trail.

Are you actually scumreading mix, though?

[MiX]

You do know everyone that flips promoter is an instant win, right?

FoS: Glooble, L-?

[Glooble]

MiX is simply the best lynch for today. Because if he’s scum, then we caught scum, and if he’s town Galz becomes a true IC. Well, nearly a true IC. I seriously doubt scum!promoter Galz claims to save town!Mix, but I guess it’s possible he’d do it just as a gambit to throw us off the trail.

Are you actually scumreading mix, though?

I’ve basically been scumreading him all game. I started townreading him for a little while at the beginning of this game but that was based on my incorrect ICing of Galz, which, incidentally, is exactly what Galz and MiX are counting on.

[Glooble]

You do know everyone that flips promoter is an instant win, right?

FoS: Glooble, L-?

Sure but you make far and away the most sense as a scum partner for Galz.

[SpaceAnemone]

Yes, I'm the vengeful townie. I'm so disappointed that gkrieg hasn't tried to get me lynched again this game, because it had seemed like the perfect role for me given my history.

While I didn't breadcrumb the role explicitly, my question about Lyncher Doctor in D1 were motivated by the fact that I knew that role had to appear in this game, because it was in the same bucket as mine.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Yes, I'm the vengeful townie. I'm so disappointed that gkrieg hasn't tried to get me lynched again this game, because it had seemed like the perfect role for me given my history.

While I didn't breadcrumb the role explicitly, my question about Lyncher Doctor in D1 were motivated by the fact that I knew that role had to appear in this game, because it was in the same bucket as mine.

There's been no counterclaim, so I don't see any reason not to believe you

[Glooble]

Look at it this way- there’s basically two lynch pools. If Galz is scum, his partner is almost certainly MiX. If Galz is town, the lynch pool is me, Gkrieg, adk, and  MiX. Not only is MiX the only one who could even conceivably be scum in both scenarios, but he’s also the only one whose flip more or less confirms another player as either town or scum.

We’d be silly to lynch anyone else.

[MiX]

Vote: Glooble, you made me laugh. And at this point in the game that's scummy.

[MiX]

Also, why is chairs not on any lynch pool?

[Glooble]

Also, why is chairs not on any lynch pool?

Good point. He should be in the larger one. But my point still stands.

[Glooble]

What part of this is confusing to people? I feel like I’m not expressing myself well.

[MiX]

What part of this is confusing to people? I feel like I’m not expressing myself well.

Your plan is only perfect if there were 4 people in the bigger lynch pool: then we could afford to lynch them all. We have exactly 2 possible mislynches, but 5 people on lynch pool, which means we can't just lynch people based on "what if Galz is actually scum?", we cannot waste time killing town.

[Glooble]

What part of this is confusing to people? I feel like I’m not expressing myself well.

Your plan is only perfect if there were 4 people in the bigger lynch pool: then we could afford to lynch them all. We have exactly 2 possible mislynches, but 5 people on lynch pool, which means we can't just lynch people based on "what if Galz is actually scum?", we cannot waste time killing town.

Which is the beauty of you being in both lynch pools. Lynching you now maximizes or chances.

[MiX]

What part of this is confusing to people? I feel like I’m not expressing myself well.

Your plan is only perfect if there were 4 people in the bigger lynch pool: then we could afford to lynch them all. We have exactly 2 possible mislynches, but 5 people on lynch pool, which means we can't just lynch people based on "what if Galz is actually scum?", we cannot waste time killing town.

Which is the beauty of you being in both lynch pools. Lynching you now maximizes or chances.

Only if you disregard reads. Galz is pretty towny and so am I, me being in both lynch pools doesn't mean I'm scummier than the rest.

[Glooble]

Someone please give me a case for MiX being town that doesn’t rely on Galz being town.

[Glooble]

All my other points aside, look at the way MiX tries to just slide himself onto the list of ICs based on nothing and tell me what’s towny about that?

[MiX]

Someone please give me a case for MiX being town that doesn’t rely on Galz being town.

Can I do this? Maybe I'll actually put in effort!

[jotheonah]

vote: MiX

I 100% agree with everything my twin is saying.

[gkrieg13]

vote: MiX

He was scummy from the start anyway.

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: MiX

I 100% agree with everything my twin is saying.

Here's the thing: pushing mix is exactly what scum!glooble needs to do right at this moment. There's a very small pool of people that are still viable lynches, and mix and galz are teetering at the edge of that pool.

Glooble's posts here are very consistent with the idea that he's putting everything he has into getting one of them lynched while he still can; then if he goes down tomorrow, his other partner (gkrieg or chairs) would hopefully make it through lylo.

I think this is just caught scum being desperate.

vote: glooble

[jotheonah]

vote: MiX

I 100% agree with everything my twin is saying.

Here's the thing: pushing mix is exactly what scum!glooble needs to do right at this moment. There's a very small pool of people that are still viable lynches, and mix and galz are teetering at the edge of that pool.

Glooble's posts here are very consistent with the idea that he's putting everything he has into getting one of them lynched while he still can; then if he goes down tomorrow, his other partner (gkrieg or chairs) would hopefully make it through lylo.

I think this is just caught scum being desperate.

vote: glooble

I respect that take. But what do we do tomorrow if he flips town? We're back where we were. He's right about MiX being the most informational lynch.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.final


MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (5): chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph2302, MiX
Joseph2302 (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, faust, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel

Not voting (0):


With 14 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

vote:chairs

It seems likely that at the end of day 1 when the main two lynch options were joth and Joseph, there would be at least one scum on each. That would make either chairs or MiX scum. And I really do think MiX is likely town.

What happened with this? It seems like Glooble has done a complete 180.

[EFHW]

I'm so disappointed Space wasn't scum.

[EFHW]

What information do we get if MiX flips town? If he flips scum? It seems to me that we'll still have inconclusive suppositions.

[jotheonah]

What information do we get if MiX flips town? If he flips scum? It seems to me that we'll still have inconclusive suppositions.

We'll either win or rule out this MiX-Galz theory, which Glooble and I see as highly plausible.

[Galzria]

What information do we get if MiX flips town? If he flips scum? It seems to me that we'll still have inconclusive suppositions.

If he (or anybody), flips scum, it proves I’m town. The point Joth is making is that he’s concerned about a Galz/MiX scum team where I’m the scum!Traitor that was protecting Scum!Promoter MiX (note that it DOESN’T work the other way around because Scum!Promoter!Galz wouldn’t know MiX was Traitor).

The biggest problem with that theory is that 100% of my play from D1 is consistent with me being the promoter, regardless of what you think my alignment to be.

If MiX flips town, we gain nothing except a wasted day, and an IC (Faust) killed at night - and no actual new information, as I could STILL be scum!Promoter in this scenario, and I would be forced to set up a gladiator for tomorrow where the correct play, in all honesty, would be to challenge & lynch me to rule that out.

This buys Glooble two mislynch’s - me/MiX, and the ability to kill Faust/EFHW at night. This leaves the game:

IC!Space
Glooble, ADK, Joth, Chairs, Gkrieg

With 2 scum alive, that’s MyLo.

[Galzria]

Joth would also be IC. So:

IC!Space, IC!Joth
ADK, Glooble, Chairs, Gkrieg

In MyLo.

[faust]

The lynch should probably get a say as well, since if they flip town they'll be an IC.

I'm planning to lynch scum today.

[Galzria]

The lynch should probably get a say as well, since if they flip town they'll be an IC.

I'm planning to lynch scum today.

[faust]

My preferred Gladiator pick I think is gkrieg. That is, if we lynch Glooble. Otherwise of course Glooble.

[faust]

I'd like to hear faust's case on Glooble.

I'm feeling it.

I think it comes down to Galz and MiX being reasonably towny, chairs as well. I think Glooble's jump on the DatSwan wagon was late, awkward, and then after the fakeclaim he goes on to push for a joth lynch, but phrases it as a question which is super shady. Then today he does pretty much exactly what I expect scum to do here, as ADK pointed out. Oh ADK is also towny by the way.

[Glooble]

MiX and Galz are playing all of you and I hope when I flip town you will see that.

[Glooble]

For what iits worth I agree that ADK is towny, so if MiX’s partner isn’t Galz it’s probably chairs or Gkrieg. So you should be okay even if you mislynch me. I just feel bad about costing town what could have been a perfect game.

[faust]

MiX and Galz are playing all of you and I hope when I flip town you will see that.

I have to say that upon further consideration I regret not having tracked one of them. I think the way the game was going had me overconfident and not thinking enough.

I can say it now, I tracked Space. So it doesn't even give any further info.

[faust]

Meh, looking at D1 around the time we got the MiX wagon it actually kinda makes sense with Galz and DatSwan as partners.

unvote

[EFHW]

For what iits worth I agree that ADK is towny, so if MiX’s partner isn’t Galz it’s probably chairs or Gkrieg. So you should be okay even if you mislynch me. I just feel bad about costing town what could have been a perfect game.

vote: Glooble

[MiX]

Glooble is trying really hard to survive this day. I love it, it's like he challenged me. Unfortunately, this is just soooo desperate...come on Glooble!

I'll try to track down some partnery tells from Swan, given I completely forgot about that.

[Glooble]

All I’m trying to do is maximize our chances of winning. But every time MiX posts I become more convinced he’s scum.

[MiX]

Hey, same! Up top!

Seriously, think about it from my perspective: who would push for my lynch the way you're doing? And you'll come to the same answer: scum that is trying to come back from a disasterous position that absolutely must mislynch today, even if it means they get lynched in the process, simply because they cannot afford town eating themselves. You've never stopped scumreading me, that was obviously so you could flip on me when the time was right, like right now. I can't possibly see when you're town here.

[Glooble]

And I’m having a very difficult time seeing a scenario where you’re town. So what would you do in my position? Imagine you’ve been scumreading someone all game and suddenly they’re pushing for a lynch pool that inexplicably doesn’t include them?

[Glooble]

Anyway to answer your question-

Hey, same! Up top!

Seriously, think about it from my perspective: who would push for my lynch the way you're doing?

See if I think about this from the perspective of a theoretical town!MiX, I think he at least acknowledges that my theory has merit. The “oh look how ridiculous Glooble is being he must be scum!” Reaction is scummy.

[MiX]

And I’m having a very difficult time seeing a scenario where you’re town. So what would you do in my position? Imagine you’ve been scumreading someone all game and suddenly they’re pushing for a lynch pool that inexplicably doesn’t include them?

I wouldn't push the "oh if Galzria is scum then MiX is scum" angle, that's for sure. If you genually believe I'm scum, who cares what Galz is? After I flip Galz's alignment will be perfectly clear (if I flip scum, but if I flip town I'm pretty sure that ICs Galzria), so there's no reason to think about the best-case scenario when you think I'm scum in the worst-case scenario.

For clarification, best-case scenario is Galz is scum, since it means we only need to lynch 1 scum (since it would immediately out Galz)

PPE 1: This exchange is probably worthless for everyone else...but I don't understand that post.

[MiX]

Oh okay I just read it a bit closer and I get it.

It has as much merit as the odds Galz is scum here: 0%. From a town!Glooble perspective, why would you push me this hard, and not talk about who town wants to lynch? Why lead the charge as a non-IC? Think if you're wrong: all you accomplished was me scumreading you. And I know I can be wrong, which is why I'm even doing this conversation.

[Glooble]

The thing is lynching you makes sense from every angle! I do believe yourebscum butbIm not sure. But I’m not sure about anyone in the lynch pool. And when you can’t be sure you hedge your bets. If we lynch me or chairs or Gkrieg or ADK and we’re wrong, we are back to square one. If we lynch you and we’re wrong, we have an extra IC. That’s an obvious choice.

PPE1: I did kind of let an IC lead the charge. This is joth’s theory. I just really like it.

[Glooble]

Also, obviously, I think chance of Galz being scum is much, much higher than 0%.

[MiX]

Let's see if I can dispel the idea that ICing Galz is good:

Let us assume Galz is scum iff I'm scum. We can afford exactly 2 mislynches. Let's go over scenarios:

- I'm lynched, I flip town:
-- Galz is IC, 4 people remaining, 1 mislynch left. This is technically 50% winrate, but it's higher because PRs.

- I'm lynched, I flip scum, Galz dies. Obviously.

- Someone else is lynched, they flip town:
-- 4 people remaining, 1 mislynch left. The odds of lynching scum in the next two lynches are...50%, if there's only 1. And if there's 2, the odds of lynching both of them in 3 lynches is...50%. Again, PRs help.

- Someone else is lynched, they flip scum. For the sake of argument, let's assume I'm still considered a suspect:
-- 4 people remaining, 2 mislynches left. This is, again, 50% winrate with PRs helping.


And, thus, the idea that ICing Galz is good come to light: it is not. Overall we achieve the same result. This is because when Galzria is scum, scum are in a gambit, that means that only one of them needs to die in order for town to win. Thus your idea, while good, is inherently flawed. Feel free to ask me where I got the numbers from.

[Glooble]

- Someone else is lynched, they flip town:
-- 4 people remaining, 1 mislynch left. The odds of lynching scum in the next two lynches are...50%, if there's only 1. And if there's 2, the odds of lynching both of them in 3 lynches is...50%. Again, PRs help.

This is the one that’s wrong. If someone else is lynched and they flip town, we have 5 possible scum remaining, not 4.

[Glooble]

MiX, Galz, Glooble, ADK, chairs, Gkrieg (minus the one we lynch, probably me in this scenario let’s be honest.)

[MiX]

We would never lynch Galz before the other scum flips. Thus our lynch pool would be 4 people. If Galz is scum, it would be the first scenario, which states "if there's only 1 (scum)". Not clear I suppose, apologies.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm so disappointed Space wasn't scum.

Sorry! :-P At least you've saved me from having to take the vig shot if I got lynched... I was quite worried about how likely I might be to get that call wrong!

[Glooble]

We would never lynch Galz before the other scum flips. Thus our lynch pool would be 4 people. If Galz is scum, it would be the first scenario, which states "if there's only 1 (scum)". Not clear I suppose, apologies.

You’re discounting the value of actually having a living Galz as an IC.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm slightly VLA till Monday at this point, which is annoying because I need to do some re-reading to feel confident about which side of the emerging Glooble-Mix divide I fall into.

I say "slightly" because I'm not going anywhere, I'm just hosting a music-arranging weekend at my house for some friends, so my computer will probably be busy being a music notating device rather than a thing I can read mafia on.

[EFHW]

The scum!Galz theory is clever and satisfying. Those kinds of theories are almost never true.

Is this the narrative being proposed?

Scum!MiX is promoter.  He makes a lot of noise Day 1 about wanting town!promoter to claim as a signal to traitor. He chooses joth as gladiator, even though joth has seriously considered challenging MiX. Traitor!Galzria wants to signal to his partners, so he fakeclaims town promoter. He feels safe doing this because scum!Mix was pressing for a promoter claim Day 1 and because as traitor he knows there is no town promoter. He is motivated to do it because MiX is looking in danger of being challenged and losing.

Why does scum!Galz fakeclaiming here save MiX?

Why did scum!promoter MiX pick joth, who is talking about challenging MiX?

**Scum!Galz is putting all his eggs in one basket, because if MiX gets lynched anyway, galz's fakeclaim is also revealed and they both go down. No way. I don't believe he would do that.

[EFHW]

If Galzria had claimed Day 1, this theory would be a bit more plausible.

[MiX]

We would never lynch Galz before the other scum flips. Thus our lynch pool would be 4 people. If Galz is scum, it would be the first scenario, which states "if there's only 1 (scum)". Not clear I suppose, apologies.

You’re discounting the value of actually having a living Galz as an IC.

Yeah, you're right. In reality your plan makes perfect sense because ADK is town, which means we win. But there's still no reason for me not to propose your death instead.

How sure are we that ADK is town?

[MiX]

Why does scum!Galz fakeclaiming here save MiX?

Why did scum!promoter MiX pick joth, who is talking about challenging MiX?

It saves himself, he was going to be the other person to be challenged after me.

Because joth was the person most likely to be lynched after D1. Also it's the best target to not out there's a scum!Promoter. Besides, joth would never target me, because I'm super duper town.


I really wish I was scum here, only so I could say I made this play and Galz enabled it and we bussed really REALLY hard to eventually win...that would be so cool!

[chairs]

I don’t believe someone could play this way as scum. Can’t get behind a mix lynch.

vote: glooble

[Glooble]

Bleh. Now I'm starting to think MiX really is town.

[EFHW]

Why does scum!Galz fakeclaiming here save MiX?

It saves himself, he was going to be the other person to be challenged after me.

To me, it looked like he was scumreading how joth was playing as gladiator, and wanted to use the weight of his being promoter to emphasize his points.

[EFHW]

Bleh. Now I'm starting to think MiX really is town.

At the beginning of the day you said you really thought MiX was town. And you made a case against chairs. What happened?

[jotheonah]

Any chance we lynch neither MiX nor Glooble today?

I continue to townread Glooble. And I’m not sure he has ever fooled me as scum. I know him as well as I know anybody and I don’t think he’s scum.

[Glooble]

Bleh. Now I'm starting to think MiX really is town.

At the beginning of the day you said you really thought MiX was town. And you made a case against chairs. What happened?

What happened was joth reminded me of the possibility of the MiX/ Galz team and I got a little obsessed.

[Glooble]

My case on chairs still exists. There might be additional wagon-based evidence to corroborate it. It’s probably worth looking at.

[Glooble]

This is basically what happened with me and ashersky in Imperial Radch Mafia. I have a bad habit of tunneling at this point in the game.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Any chance we lynch neither MiX nor Glooble today?

I continue to townread Glooble. And I’m not sure he has ever fooled me as scum. I know him as well as I know anybody and I don’t think he’s scum.

Who did you have in mind?

[jotheonah]

The scum!Galz theory is clever and satisfying. Those kinds of theories are almost never true.

...

**Scum!Galz is putting all his eggs in one basket, because if MiX gets lynched anyway, galz's fakeclaim is also revealed and they both go down. No way. I don't believe he would do that.

EFHW makes good points here. But I’m not convinced.

MiX promoting me would be weird, but not out of the question, especially given (A) the enormous amount of towncred he had at the end of D1 from his VT claim and (B) my D1 comment that I probably wouldn’t challenge MiX since I knew scum would expect me to and (C) MiX’s confidence that he could get out of it by buddying me (which he did, aggressively, at the start of D2).

As for Galzria’s claim timing, I think he does claim to get me away from MiX. Go back and reread. His claim is coupled with an extremely aggressive posture toward me. He and MiX are both throwing everything they’ve got at making me out to be scum. Yes, he was taking a risk, but I think they both thought they could easily get me to lose that fight. Then when that stopped working, what did Galz do? He switched to being friendly to me but still gently directing my lynch away from MiX by suggesting I need to choose independently and get less town input (at this point a lot of town had pledged to vote one way or another on me/MiX.

Finally, as off the wall as this narrative might be, there’s no compelling alternative narrative. So if I’m wrong about this, then scum have played a very tight game.

Finally, I think we’re devaluing the amount of info we have.

We have the opportunity to re-read the first two days knowing 6-7 town and one scum. Players of our caliber ought to be able to get something out of that. I think we need to turn our attention there. I would suggest especially looking at the DatSwan wagon.

[MiX]

There's no other cool awesome narrative because gkrieg and chairs are mad lurking here. Ew.

Vote: gkrieg

[Glooble]

I was thinking that too. Back to vote: chairs for now but I’ll look back today.

[Glooble]

Just looked back and MiX is also voting for joth at the end of Day 1. Which was my main point in favor of chairs over gKrieg. GKrieg and I both ended that day voting for MiX. I’m sure there’s some kind of wagon analysis that could crack this wide open.

[gkrieg13]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I mean I’ll be capt obvious here:
Given the size of the game, if there is a town promoter, on Night 1 they could either:
1) target themselves and another the next day. 1 town, 1 unknown. This assuredly ends in them claiming meaning the other player is x/11 chance of skum.

2) If there is no promoter, we as town lynch someone tomorrow who has... an x/12 chance of being skum... but we get to decide collectively.

All in all i think promoter is neg utility to exist at all because it forces isolation to 2 people the next day instead of people getting to pick who they focus on from the group - so it limits discussion.

I mean talked to death at this point. I don’t think the claim makes any sense, and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not.

Rereading Swan, this stood out. It's WIFOM, but is Datswan more likely to say that it is possible for there to be no promoter if scum has the promoter or if town has it?

[gkrieg13]

Why are we all saying the Promoter is negative utility? If they guess right and target scum, they increase our chance of lynching scum to 50%. How is that bad?

I mean I’ll be capt obvious here:
Given the size of the game, if there is a town promoter, on Night 1 they could either:
1) target themselves and another the next day. 1 town, 1 unknown. This assuredly ends in them claiming meaning the other player is x/11 chance of skum.

2) If there is no promoter, we as town lynch someone tomorrow who has... an x/12 chance of being skum... but we get to decide collectively.

All in all i think promoter is neg utility to exist at all because it forces isolation to 2 people the next day instead of people getting to pick who they focus on from the group - so it limits discussion.

I mean talked to death at this point. I don’t think the claim makes any sense, and we will know tomorrow if a promoter exists or not.

You already know that one exists. You just don’t know if they are scum or town.

Right but i don’t think anyone is arguing the negative utility of the skum version.

Never mind, it seems like he is walking this back at this point? I'm not sure, but it makes me townread galz a lot more.

[gkrieg13]

My expectations are that thus far scum has sided with “Should Claims” and “Neutrals” if it’s a town!promoter, and have been wherever they feel like if it’s a scum!promoter, as they have no intention of claiming anyway.

I don't think that kind of reasoning is fruitful. Scum have taken the side that they believe is the correct play. It does not pay off for them to lie about this stuff. What I will say is that scum probably happily engaged in all this setup talk that brings us nowhere.

I disagree.

Could be a middle ground - if skum has the promoter they would know there is no town promoter. So, fairly easy day 1 plan could be to start the convo to “waste time”, knowing there will be no claim, and then tomorrow come out with “I’m the town promoter and targeted this person”.

They could even parlay that tomorrow if they got suspected, which would inevitably force a claim. If they already know A-D is in play, they would want to get rid of as many from B-D as they could so that could be a plan.


Side note - that is a super reach theory in detail, but the initial premise is something that should be remembered going forward.

This post is funny because it is either exactly what was done, or it is some interesting interaction between scum partners.

[gkrieg13]

Getting my posts together, but I do want to say that I both agree and disagree with Galz on the MCMC thing:
MCMC for sure does tunnel early days... but like... changes lanes a lot too, if that makes sense? From what I have played with them they will normally find a few spots to tunnel fairly hard, not just one, but they will really really push them.

That being said, I have found they do it as both skum and town - So, IDK if there is anything to be taken from it or not.

I do not think pursuing MCMC based on this idea would be a great use of our time.


@EFHW - Is Galz more skummy than MiX is towny to you?

Very hedgy on mcmcsalot.

[gkrieg13]

Regarding the MiX Wagon:

I think that the only skum narrative for bringing up or supporting the Town Promoter Claim is if Skum knows they have the Promoter, and not Town.

I think there is a chance that skum would of brought up the claim in that instance, as it would both take time away from the early day and it would leave everyone wondering which promoter exists - the skum one not claiming, or the mafia one staying silent (or skum could fake claim somewhat safely in that situation, but I find that less likely).

I think there is a chance that skum knows there is a Town Promoter, and used the engage to attempt to isolate a kill selection based on PRs.

I do not think that it is likely that a Town player would pursue the claim of the Promoter to a great extent, especially to the point of actually claiming something. They could do it as Goon though.

All of this has me looking at ADK and MiX. Given how popular the MiX wagon is this early on Day 1... It kind of has me leaning "not MiX" right now.

I am going to read ADK back, but for now:

Vote: ADK

Does DatSwan like to bus? This seems like an important post. He chooses to defend MiX and vote for ADK before he has really read ADK. His reasoning isn't that great either for not jumping on the MiX wagon.

[faust]

And I’m having a very difficult time seeing a scenario where you’re town. So what would you do in my position? Imagine you’ve been scumreading someone all game and suddenly they’re pushing for a lynch pool that inexplicably doesn’t include them?

I can't think of any situation where I would push for a lynchpool that includes me...

[MiX]

Getting my posts together, but I do want to say that I both agree and disagree with Galz on the MCMC thing:
MCMC for sure does tunnel early days... but like... changes lanes a lot too, if that makes sense? From what I have played with them they will normally find a few spots to tunnel fairly hard, not just one, but they will really really push them.

That being said, I have found they do it as both skum and town - So, IDK if there is anything to be taken from it or not.

I do not think pursuing MCMC based on this idea would be a great use of our time.


@EFHW - Is Galz more skummy than MiX is towny to you?

Very hedgy on mcmcsalot.

Why would this be useful now? We know he's scum already.

[gkrieg13]

Although scum can't be sure of town vs town from it, because we could change our minds, and of course there's a traitor

Vote: Joseph

Only scum can know that there is a Traitor.

Happy to have someone else keep me company on the Joseph wagon. Sadly, I do think there's a pretty high chance Joseph's just being unobservant instead of explicitly scumslipping.

But that's not how we get more company!

You also don’t get more company by pushing bad cases & making bad/unexplained votes.

sure you do - you just get bad company

This is a lot of interactions if Datswan and galz were partners.

[gkrieg13]

Getting my posts together, but I do want to say that I both agree and disagree with Galz on the MCMC thing:
MCMC for sure does tunnel early days... but like... changes lanes a lot too, if that makes sense? From what I have played with them they will normally find a few spots to tunnel fairly hard, not just one, but they will really really push them.

That being said, I have found they do it as both skum and town - So, IDK if there is anything to be taken from it or not.

I do not think pursuing MCMC based on this idea would be a great use of our time.


@EFHW - Is Galz more skummy than MiX is towny to you?

Very hedgy on mcmcsalot.

Why would this be useful now? We know he's scum already.

Didn't realize mcmcsalot was dead.

[gkrieg13]

Okay, I do this every game, so I suppose I need to keep up the tradition: helps me as every alignment so it can't go wrong. I know that we don't want to give too much information to scum, so I'll keep it succint.

arishipshape: I'm not lynching him.

DatSwan: No one is lynching him.

chairs: Consistent. That's all I can say about him. No one is lynching him.

joth: Jokes a lot, focused a bunch of me, ari and ADK. Does almost nothing other than interact with us three. Scum.

MiX: Town. Seriously discourage this lynch, better people to focus.

ADK: Talks a lot about promoter given he's the one that brought it up. faust's case makes sense but I don't think traitor would do that: I would suspect scum would give traitor a way to claim, this way there would be communication (for all scum know ADK's not traitor, maybe someone else signaled better, who knows, I've never played with traitor). My previous townread on him is failing, not sure where he's positioned in my reads anymore. Would lynch.

gkrieg: No one is lynching him.

mcmc: I have no idea. "Not town!mcmc" is probably how I would describe him. His logic seems to make sense sometimes so not exactly my favourite here. Would lynch.

Glooble: Town. Oops. Unvote, sorry about that. I still think voting there was justified, but I clearly needed to re-reread Glooble to get a better read.

Galzria: Not knowing his meta is hurting me, but I read a scum game where he basically bussed early. Didn't happen here, plus he seems more confident on his vote, so he seems town. I'll need to see more, however. I'm not lynching him.

faust: No one is lynching him.

Joseph: Different. I need to reread the game I played with him to see just how different. I'm not lynching him.

Space: Town, as I've said.

EFHW: No one is lynching her.


Overall, I think mcmc, ADK or joth are the scummiest bunch from the people I actually want to lynch today. Of those;

Vote: joth, almost no content, a lot of it is focused on players he doesn't know, too many jokes for my taste, all in all does not seem to be helping town. Maybe I just can't read him, but he still looks like the scummiest of them all. I'll try to make a case on him just to rectify if he's this scummy or not.

PPE all the way from gkrieg's infinity posts, including mine.

If you did not open this with "I do this regardless of alignment" I would say this is the skummiest thing you have posted all game.
To the players still on MiX, I would like to point out it would be unlikely for a skum player as the leading wagon to write up this list that specifically isolates such a small amount of players.

For that and other sorted reasons I really do no want to lynch MiX today. That being said I was also their number 1 defense in the last game I played with them and MiX played me like a pooch as SK - so take my opinion as you will I guess.

More defending MiX.

[faust]

One thing is certain - if we were to lynch among Galzria/MiX today, I would strongly advocate for Galzria.

[gkrieg13]

Galzria: Not knowing his meta is hurting me, but I read a scum game where he basically bussed early. Didn't happen here, plus he seems more confident on his vote, so he seems town. I'll need to see more, however. I'm not lynching him.

How can you know whether or not someone if bussing if you don't know who their partners are?

I believe MiX is saying "since I know I am Town, Galz can't be bussing"... as Galz only vote to my knowledge was on MiX.

Even going out of his way to answer for MiX.

[MiX]

One thing is certain - if we were to lynch among Galzria/MiX today, I would strongly advocate for Galzria.

That's terrible: killing Galz does not help at all. The best way to reduce our lynch pool is if we kill someone in {MiX, gkrieg, Glooble, chairs, ADK}.

[faust]

Any chance we lynch neither MiX nor Glooble today?

I continue to townread Glooble. And I’m not sure he has ever fooled me as scum. I know him as well as I know anybody and I don’t think he’s scum.

I hate this reasoning. I'm literally coming from a game where I pushed for a shraeye lynch against the expressed advice of town!raerae, and he flipped scum. Knowing a person better doesn't necessarily make you better at reading them, because they also know you better and can play you.

[gkrieg13]

So t he lynch choices seem to be {mix, ADK, joth}
My preferences would be ADK > joth >> MiX

But I want to Vote: joth for now, as that puts them in a tie with MiX. Probably most likely wagon other than the stubborn people on MiX

Did people ever try to figure out who Joseph was trying to lynch? It certainly wasn't MiX.

[faust]

So t he lynch choices seem to be {mix, ADK, joth}
My preferences would be ADK > joth >> MiX

But I want to Vote: joth for now, as that puts them in a tie with MiX. Probably most likely wagon other than the stubborn people on MiX

Did people ever try to figure out who Joseph was trying to lynch? It certainly wasn't MiX.

Yes but it wasn't worth talking about until PRs were outed. ADK is the most likely candidate, out of the rest he expressedly defended gkrieg and chairs and gave a non-scumread on joth. ADK is most likely the lynchee.

[gkrieg13]

Sooo joth 4/Joseph 4? That would still make joth the lynch? I strongly dislike that. I will go back to MiX to avoid a joth lynch.

false (I think) You put Joseph at 4 last and neither I think have been higher that that? So that would mean Joseph lynch I believe. I mean we have 2 hours still, but as of now, that is what I understand.

wrong. I am false, you are correct. just re read it.

anyone else wanna jump over to Joseph?

Datswan also repeatedly tries to subtly get joth not lynched, but it would be pretty ballsy to get nominated as scum and then challenge another scum.

[MiX]

So t he lynch choices seem to be {mix, ADK, joth}
My preferences would be ADK > joth >> MiX

But I want to Vote: joth for now, as that puts them in a tie with MiX. Probably most likely wagon other than the stubborn people on MiX

Did people ever try to figure out who Joseph was trying to lynch? It certainly wasn't MiX.

It's...wait do we want this out? I forgot.

PPE 2: Yeah it's ADK.

[Glooble]

One thing is certain - if we were to lynch among Galzria/MiX today, I would strongly advocate for Galzria.

I don't see a scenario where Galz is scum and his partner is anyone other than MiX.

[gkrieg13]

Eventually I will go back and see how D2 unfolded, but I have to go now.

[gkrieg13]

One thing is certain - if we were to lynch among Galzria/MiX today, I would strongly advocate for Galzria.

I don't see a scenario where Galz is scum and his partner is anyone other than MiX.

MiX was defended a lot by Datswan. I think that is the only major thing I got from my Swan reread.

[jotheonah]

if we have broad consensus on ADK being the lynchee that's one more name out of the lynchpool, so that's helpful.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm pretty sure if we lynch glooble, gkrieg, and chairs in any order, then we win. So let's do that.

[Glooble]

I'm pretty sure if we lynch glooble, gkrieg, and chairs in any order, then we win. So let's do that.

Unless it's MiX/Galz. Then we lose.

[jotheonah]

Ok, so one option here is a Galz-MiX-DatSwan team.

If we eliminate ADK, then we're looking at 2 scum in chairs-Glooble-gkrieg as the other possibility. Of those, I think gkrieg is reading very towny, Glooble is, well, I can see why people are scumreading him, and chairs continues to be mainly lurky. Plus, faust's tracker result on gkrieg, while by no means exonerating, is a point in his favor.

So let's say we lynch MiX today and he flips town. Scum kills one of our PRs tonight. Tomorrow we're at 8, we lynch Glooble. He flips town? We're at 6 and it's milo. we no lynch I guess. Now we're at 5 townmembers: chairs, gkrieg, and three ICs. And then ... we win. Assuming all our assumptions were correct, we can lynch chairs then gkrieg.

Now let's say we lynch Glooble today and he flips town. Tomorrow, we're at 8. We can lynch chairs, he flips town. Now we're at 6, we no lynch, now we're at 5 with Galz, MiX, gkrieg. I guess at that point we lynch MiX or Galz, since.

So it seems like whatever option we choose, the odds are pretty well in our favor if we're willing to give ADK a pass. The advantage of MiX first is that it will give us a clearer idea of what we're dealing with and whether we can trust Galz. The advantage of lynching Glooble/chairs/gkrieg first is that there's a chance NKs will take care of the MiX/Galz issue for us and we won't have to waste a lynch on it, and if they don't, well, that's more evidence.

But how do we lose the game here? That's the question. In the scenarios I've laid out, we can lose to a gkrieg-ADK team. But that's a chance I'll take.

[jotheonah]

I'm pretty sure if we lynch glooble, gkrieg, and chairs in any order, then we win. So let's do that.

We only have to lynch two of them. If we hit town both times, the other one's clear because ... who's their partner?

[jotheonah]

Basically we have enough mislynches to guarantee our win in all but the most outlandish of circumstances.

[Glooble]

I'm pretty sure if we lynch glooble, gkrieg, and chairs in any order, then we win. So let's do that.

We only have to lynch two of them. If we hit town both times, the other one's clear because ... who's their partner?

Could be MiX. MiX being town exonerates Galz, it doesn't work the other way around.

[jotheonah]

I'm pretty sure if we lynch glooble, gkrieg, and chairs in any order, then we win. So let's do that.

We only have to lynch two of them. If we hit town both times, the other one's clear because ... who's their partner?

Could be MiX. MiX being town exonerates Galz, it doesn't work the other way around.

hmmm that's true. then we really do want to lynch MiX today. It's the most assured path to victory.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Not sure if it changes anything but we can't no lynch

[jotheonah]

Not sure if it changes anything but we can't no lynch

We can’t ACCIDENTALLY no lynch. We can still vote for it.

[faust]

I don't buy the narrative that Galz can only be scum with MiX, so I don't think there's a point in favor of a MiX lynch there.

[MiX]

I don't buy the narrative that Galz can only be scum with MiX, so I don't think there's a point in favor of a MiX lynch there.

I also don't buy the narrative that MiX can only be scum with Galz. Wait...

Anyway my voice doesn't matter here: you can lynch me, but obviously from my perspective that'll be a complete waste of time. I like a gkrieg lynch more than anything at this point.

[jotheonah]

Ok faust, so why does scum!promoter Galz claim when he does?

[jotheonah]

I don't buy the narrative that Galz can only be scum with MiX, so I don't think there's a point in favor of a MiX lynch there.

I also don't buy the narrative that MiX can only be scum with Galz. Wait...

Anyway my voice doesn't matter here: you can lynch me, but obviously from my perspective that'll be a complete waste of time. I like a gkrieg lynch more than anything at this point.

really??? why gkrieg? he reads hella townie to me

[MiX]

I don't buy the narrative that Galz can only be scum with MiX, so I don't think there's a point in favor of a MiX lynch there.

I also don't buy the narrative that MiX can only be scum with Galz. Wait...

Anyway my voice doesn't matter here: you can lynch me, but obviously from my perspective that'll be a complete waste of time. I like a gkrieg lynch more than anything at this point.

really??? why gkrieg? he reads hella townie to me

Hmmmmmm why? I also have a feeling scum is more likely to reread Swan and check EVERYTHING, even things about dead players. Also it's either that or chairs (I like Glooble's """case""" on me) and that just feels like lynching a lurker.

[faust]

Ok faust, so why does scum!promoter Galz claim when he does?

So he doesn't get challenged, and for general towncred. I find it less likely that Galz would tie himself to a partner like that this early.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I don't buy the narrative that Galz can only be scum with MiX, so I don't think there's a point in favor of a MiX lynch there.

I also don't buy the narrative that MiX can only be scum with Galz. Wait...

Anyway my voice doesn't matter here: you can lynch me, but obviously from my perspective that'll be a complete waste of time. I like a gkrieg lynch more than anything at this point.

really??? why gkrieg? he reads hella townie to me

Hmmmmmm why? I also have a feeling scum is more likely to reread Swan and check EVERYTHING, even things about dead players. Also it's either that or chairs (I like Glooble's """case""" on me) and that just feels like lynching a lurker.

Sometimes lynching a lurker is just the right thing to do

[EFHW]

Ok faust, so why does scum!promoter Galz claim when he does?

So he doesn't get challenged, and for general towncred. I find it less likely that Galz would tie himself to a partner like that this early.

Exactly. 

There is going to be another challenge tomorrow.

[EFHW]

Galzria, who will you be challenging?

[jotheonah]

Do we lynch Galzria? It means we get a normal day tomorrow.

[EFHW]

Galzria, who will you be challenging?

*promoting

[MiX]

Do we lynch Galzria? It means we get a normal day tomorrow.

No, we'll always get a normal day tomorrow. I mean, we'll have 4 people in our lynch pool, picking between 2 isn't that bad. We should absolutely not lynch Galzria.

[jotheonah]

Do we lynch Galzria? It means we get a normal day tomorrow.

No, we'll always get a normal day tomorrow. I mean, we'll have 4 people in our lynch pool, picking between 2 isn't that bad. We should absolutely not lynch Galzria.

Wow, strong words. Why absolutely not?

[gkrieg13]

I don't want a galzria lynch. I don't think he was partnery with Datswan D1.

[EFHW]

Space, would you be willing to post the voting sequence? I should write my own program, but my skills are pretty limited so it would be a big project for me.

[MiX]

Do we lynch Galzria? It means we get a normal day tomorrow.

No, we'll always get a normal day tomorrow. I mean, we'll have 4 people in our lynch pool, picking between 2 isn't that bad. We should absolutely not lynch Galzria.

Wow, strong words. Why absolutely not?

Because if we simply lynch from the normal lynch pool, when scum flips it'll be obvious if Galz is scum or not.

[gkrieg13]

I'm pretty sure if we lynch glooble, gkrieg, and chairs in any order, then we win. So let's do that.

This is true unless you aren't the lynchee. And if MiX isn't scum. I need to reread to figure out why galz and MiX are tied to each other.

[jotheonah]

Do we lynch Galzria? It means we get a normal day tomorrow.

No, we'll always get a normal day tomorrow. I mean, we'll have 4 people in our lynch pool, picking between 2 isn't that bad. We should absolutely not lynch Galzria.

Wow, strong words. Why absolutely not?

Because if we simply lynch from the normal lynch pool, when scum flips it'll be obvious if Galz is scum or not.

And if scum doesn't flip?

[MiX]

If scum doesn't flip we lose regardless of Galz's alignment, so...

[gkrieg13]

I don't buy the narrative that Galz can only be scum with MiX, so I don't think there's a point in favor of a MiX lynch there.

I also don't buy the narrative that MiX can only be scum with Galz. Wait...

Anyway my voice doesn't matter here: you can lynch me, but obviously from my perspective that'll be a complete waste of time. I like a gkrieg lynch more than anything at this point.

really??? why gkrieg? he reads hella townie to me

Hmmmmmm why? I also have a feeling scum is more likely to reread Swan and check EVERYTHING, even things about dead players. Also it's either that or chairs (I like Glooble's """case""" on me) and that just feels like lynching a lurker.

Lol, you clearly haven't played with me.

[gkrieg13]

So, first of all, sorry for all the anti-town crap I pulled to survive yesterday. Not exactly proud of it. Second of all, setup is such a mess I don't think there's much to talk about it yet, since I'm pretty sure we don't want claims. Third of all, good job lynching Joseph.

I would also like to take full credit for making joth, the towniest man alive, look like the scummiest man alive, enough for promoter to target him. Hopefully it was scum promoter, given that I have no idea who would target joth as town promoter here...

mcmc was town? Okay. The scummiest person right now is probably...Swan? Not sure I can even pick 3 players to be scum without thinking "no, this guy's obviously town..."

Is that all? I didn't get a lot of good reads, just the town!joth one.

Although this is pretty bold if MiX were scum.

[gkrieg13]

Are you saying you wanted him to look scummy?

No, it wasn't intentional...I'm not that crazy. I just like how it "worked", in a way. I saw that joth's posts are way, WAY bigger when he's scum, and in this game he hasn't made one of those yet. That and he's actually scumhunting and following his townmeta and whatnot.

MiX! I was all set to not target you but that post makes me want to target you! Can you prove that fighting with me was a gambit? Is there a breadcrumb?

Answer's above, I just wanted to quote this to say...how can I breadcrumb a gambit? Then again I have no idea how to breadcrumb, so...

Ok, but you have to realize how this looks...

How what looks? For me, you being gladiator means you're town, and I'm extremely happy that I got this information, because I started the night thinking you're scum. The only problem here is I have too many townreads.

I'll get to analyzing the D1 votes, I guess I only have 3 days to do that...I usually like to take my time, but I guess it'll have to be rushed.

But then this is scummy. Assuming that being promoted means you are town shows that he thinks it is a scum promoter

[gkrieg13]

Let's face it, if it was (A) scum would have been smarter to target me. You voted for several people yesterday and seemed willing to move your vote to get a lynch. I parked my vote on MiX and kept trying to corall people back to him.

OTOH, I seem to have an uncanny ability to not be remembered by anyone.

I think scum would have targeted a lurker.

[MiX]

Let's face it, if it was (A) scum would have been smarter to target me. You voted for several people yesterday and seemed willing to move your vote to get a lynch. I parked my vote on MiX and kept trying to corall people back to him.

OTOH, I seem to have an uncanny ability to not be remembered by anyone.

I think scum would have targeted a lurker.

No, that would be too obvious. Joth was the best pick to ensure it made sense from a town!promoter perspective.

[gkrieg13]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

My problem with what Joth is doing here is that he’s essentially out sourcing to find out who he can beat. He’s not looking to choose the player he most likely thinks is scum (something town would be aiming for) but is instead trying to figure out which player he can win against. This is an incredibly scummy approach. If Joth is town, his concern should be putting scum into a 50/50 and then arguing why we should lynch the other person - not petitioning to find out who he can challenge and win against (which gives him the right to cherry pick town players as scum).

This post looks like it comes from a town promoter that thought joth was scum.

[Galzria]

Ok faust, so why does scum!promoter Galz claim when he does?

This is a ridiculously overlooked point:

Scum!Promoter Galz CAN’T claim to save Traitor!MiX because Scum!Promoter!Galz wouldn’t know that MiX was Traitor. The ONLY viable argument is that I’m Traitor & MiX is Promoter - which aside from being inaccurate, simply doesn’t make any logical sense if you look at him or me D1/D2.

[gkrieg13]

1) All the skum is within [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW]... which is either 2/8 or 3/8
2) Some amount of skum is within the same pool, and another is within [Joth, Mix, Galz, faust]

Why is it either 2/8 or 3/8?

The overall post is a really big stretch to scumread ICs. Yeah, I want Swan to claim here.

Vote: Swan

This doesn't seem like newbie scum to me. Is this how he was in his first scum game? Pushing his partner hard?

[gkrieg13]

1) All the skum is within [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW]... which is either 2/8 or 3/8
2) Some amount of skum is within the same pool, and another is within [Joth, Mix, Galz, faust]

Why is it either 2/8 or 3/8?

Just separating the traitor out. Technically it is 3/8 either way.

Hold on, I just saw a contradiction here. It is impossible for the Traitor to lie there AND to be 2 scum there. I believe this mistake comes more from scum that absolutely know there IS no Traitor. How do you explain this Swan?

Swan’s “Mistakes” read a lot like scum trying to sow confusion because town is too close to figuring it all out.

I think scum doesn't do that often.

Do you think Swan's getting everything about the setup wrong as town? Because that would be according to his meta for sure, something scum!Swan would love to do as well.

Especially in this way, where someone may not have noticed this.

[gkrieg13]

Works for me

vote: datswan

This also doesn't seem very partnery to me. Being the 3rd on a challenge wagon of your partner is not where scum tends to be.

[gkrieg13]

Intent to vote swan. On mobile don’t want to accidental hammer will check back tomorrow

This however does sound like scum. Hoping to find a different situation tomorrow.

[MiX]

1) All the skum is within [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW]... which is either 2/8 or 3/8
2) Some amount of skum is within the same pool, and another is within [Joth, Mix, Galz, faust]

Why is it either 2/8 or 3/8?

The overall post is a really big stretch to scumread ICs. Yeah, I want Swan to claim here.

Vote: Swan

This doesn't seem like newbie scum to me. Is this how he was in his first scum game? Pushing his partner hard?

I didn't have a first scum game...sad, right? Ooooh maybe it's this one, and I'm playing you all! But really, no.

Vote: chairs

[gkrieg13]

I’m a big fan of the guy read but that came off as floundering to me. Floundering why? Good question.

Firmly in vote: datswan territory now

Ugh, but then his actual vote for datswan when ADK gets off the wagon is kind of townie.

[gkrieg13]

Is the right play here to lynch joth, then if DatSwan is lying scum, have the real psychologist claim tomorrow, and we lynch DatSwan then?

This is very scummy though.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm pretty sure if we lynch glooble, gkrieg, and chairs in any order, then we win. So let's do that.

This is true unless you aren't the lynchee. And if MiX isn't scum. I need to reread to figure out why galz and MiX are tied to each other.

I don't think mix is scum. And regardless of whether I'm the lynchee, I'm town. So yeah.

[gkrieg13]

vote: Glooble

chairs is townier than Glooble, ADK is scummy for leaving the Datswan wagon when it stalled for a split second, but probably the lynchee, so whatever.

MiX just looks like he is town. I don't think newbie scum goes so hard for their partner.

Galz's claim is pretty townie, although him being town means that joth could still be scum, although I don't think it is likely at all that joth would challenge his partner as scum.

IDK, probable glooble partner is either chairs or ADK?

[gkrieg13]

Let's face it, if it was (A) scum would have been smarter to target me. You voted for several people yesterday and seemed willing to move your vote to get a lynch. I parked my vote on MiX and kept trying to corall people back to him.

OTOH, I seem to have an uncanny ability to not be remembered by anyone.

I think scum would have targeted a lurker.

No, that would be too obvious. Joth was the best pick to ensure it made sense from a town!promoter perspective.

I guess.

[MiX]

Vote: Glooble

Someone make me stop voting.

[Galzria]

vote: Glooble

chairs is townier than Glooble, ADK is scummy for leaving the Datswan wagon when it stalled for a split second, but probably the lynchee, so whatever.

MiX just looks like he is town. I don't think newbie scum goes so hard for their partner.

Galz's claim is pretty townie, although him being town means that joth could still be scum, although I don't think it is likely at all that joth would challenge his partner as scum.

IDK, probable glooble partner is either chairs or ADK?

Me being what I claim IC’s Joth, because he cannot kill (from N1, so result is pure) - a scum trait he could only have as a Traitor - something he can’t be if I’m town.

[Galzria]

Every post MiX makes, makes me want to vote him though. Nothing about his posts reads genuine to me. They all feel super faked in a “Yeah, go team!” sort of way that nobody actually ever talks like.

[Glooble]

Is the right play here to lynch joth, then if DatSwan is lying scum, have the real psychologist claim tomorrow, and we lynch DatSwan then?

This is very scummy though.

You really think I say that as scum? No, if I’m scum I bus hard there, especially given how strongly I’d been town reading joth the whole game. Especially because if I’m scum I know there’s a real psychologist who is going to counterclaim and Swan will be lynched anyway.

[Glooble]

Also, if I’m scum, I want the real psychologist to counterclaim that day so we can kill them before they get another result. Why would I want them to claim the next day?

[MiX]

Every post MiX makes, makes me want to vote him though. Nothing about his posts reads genuine to me. They all feel super faked in a “Yeah, go team!” sort of way that nobody actually ever talks like.

Right??? This is because I don't actually care who gets lynched.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: Glooble

Someone make me stop voting.

I think that was the hammer

[Glooble]

Vote: Glooble

Someone make me stop voting.

I think that was the hammer

Was it?

[MiX]

Hammer? How are there 6 people voting for Glooble?

I like this play from ADK, but I would like to be the hammerer for once. I'm fine with a Glooble lynch, even if chairs might be scummier or something...

[A Drowned Kernel]

I need to check if I'm still voting for glooble

[Glooble]

I think it’s still L-1.

[Glooble]

Either way I don’t think I have anything useful left to say. I’ve made me reads and my feelings pretty clear so hopefully ya’ll make the right decisions from here on out.

[A Drowned Kernel]

galz, me, EFHW, chairs, gkrieg, mix. That's six.

Hope we caught scum

[MiX]

galz, me, EFHW, chairs, gkrieg, mix. That's six.

Hope we caught scum

EFHW is psychologist.

Either way I don’t think I have anything useful left to say. I’ve made me reads and my feelings pretty clear so hopefully ya’ll make the right decisions from here on out.

Vote: chairs

[MiX]

Wait...oh so I did hammer. Oops.

Well that's fun. Let's sleep!

[Glooble]

Well, I’m dead. That was anti-climactic since we all lost count.

For the record, I’m a vanilla townie.

But I believe in you guys! You can do this. I highly recommend either MiX or chairs for tomorrow’s challenge.

[Glooble]

I’m sorry if my tunneling on MiX ends up costing town the game.

[MiX]

Ewwwww, why did you push me so much, I thought you were scum! That's so unfair!

I’m sorry if my tunneling on MiX ends up costing town the game.

Don't worry, I'm the one who has paid almost no attention today. If town loses, it's my fault. Er, let's hope it doesn't come to that.

[EFHW]

That's too bad. I wanted to switch to chairs. And I wanted to do VCA.

I was thinking faust and I should coordinate, but my power being so much weaker means they'll probably just kill faust.

[Glooble]

Anyone have any questions for me while we’re still in twilight?

[jotheonah]

Ok faust, so why does scum!promoter Galz claim when he does?

This is a ridiculously overlooked point:

Scum!Promoter Galz CAN’T claim to save Traitor!MiX because Scum!Promoter!Galz wouldn’t know that MiX was Traitor. The ONLY viable argument is that I’m Traitor & MiX is Promoter - which aside from being inaccurate, simply doesn’t make any logical sense if you look at him or me D1/D2.

Except that MiX was signaling like crazy day 1, as I have elucidated elsewhere.

[jotheonah]

Seriously? MiX oopshammered Glooble? Let's 100% lynch MiX tomorrow.

[Glooble]

Yeah it definitely doesn’t do MiX any favors.

[MiX]

Seriously? MiX oopshammered Glooble? Let's 100% lynch MiX tomorrow.

Look at what I did D3: do you think I was counting votes? Come on I moved my vote like 3 times in a row! Derphammers exist, and they happen when someone thinks they already won, like me.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry, didn't look at the vote count when I voted, was still looking over D2.

[jotheonah]

Galz, target MiX.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Seriously? MiX oopshammered Glooble? Let's 100% lynch MiX tomorrow.

Honestly, I find gkrieg's unannounced L-1 scummier

[jotheonah]

Any IC who’s online should name a target for Galz.

[gkrieg13]

Seriously? MiX oopshammered Glooble? Let's 100% lynch MiX tomorrow.

Honestly, I find gkrieg's unannounced L-1 scummier

I had no idea that many people were already voting for Glooble.

[EFHW]

Any IC who’s online should name a target for Galz.

chairs

[faust]

Galz, target MiX.

If Glooble flips town, I agree. Otherwise, well I guess it doesn't matter that much, but gkrieg is a decent choice.

[faust]

Also, Vote: Glooble just in case.

[MiX]

This is a long twilight...

Galz should target gkrieg for sure.

[Glooble]

Faust, what do I possibly gain from lying at this point?

[faust]

Faust, what do I possibly gain from lying at this point?

Rob us the chance to start speculation on your partner. It's a fairly standard scum strategy to pretend to be town during twilight.

[EFHW]

Glooble has been hammered. Flip please.

[LaLight]

Thread Locked.

[LaLight]

LaLight finally came home. After putting all the clothes in the washing machine, sleeping a little, vacuuming the place and playing couple of levels of Cuphead he decided to make a vote count for a mafia game.

What a surprise though awaited him in the thread.

Glooble, who was a Vanilla Townie was lynched.

Glooble (6): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW, chairs, gkrieg13, MiX
MiX (1): jotheonah
chairs (1): Glooble
Not voting (2): SpaceAnemone, faust


With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

Night 3 starts now and ends in 48 hours, 13th of May, 8am FT.

[LaLight]

This time LaLight was sitting at work. What does that mean? This obviously means that LaLight has a lot of time on his hands! And he could use it well.

Unlike faust the Tracker who was killed in a brutal manner.

That was not all! MiX had been promoted to fight toDay.

Looks like an interesting day to me, what do you think, Uncleeurope?

Day Four has started!

Not voting (8): chairs, jotheonah, MiX, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW


With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 4 ends 20th of May, 9:30 am ft.

Thread Unlocked.

[chairs]

An altogether unsurprising night.

[MiX]

Vote: gkrieg

[jotheonah]

Galz targeted MiX. That's townpoints, but could also be part of the gambit. I assume Galz made that choice because I asked, but also -- Galz, are you scumreading MiX currently?

[MiX]

Faust said he should target gkrieg. That didn't change, right?

[MiX]

So, let's get this straight: it's almost always gkrieg/chairs here. Right? So why bother with the promotion? I'm only waiting in case EFHW gor a good result, otherwise it's killing time

Gkrieg, chairs, anything you want to add?

[EFHW]

So, let's get this straight: it's almost always gkrieg/chairs here. Right? So why bother with the promotion? I'm only waiting in case EFHW gor a good result, otherwise it's killing time

Gkrieg, chairs, anything you want to add?

My result was inconclusive.

[gkrieg13]

Faust said he should target gkrieg. That didn't change, right?

Faust said he was going to track me or that galz should target me?

[MiX]

Faust said he should target gkrieg. That didn't change, right?

Faust said he was going to track me or that galz should target me?

Galz.

So, let's get this straight: it's almost always gkrieg/chairs here. Right? So why bother with the promotion? I'm only waiting in case EFHW gor a good result, otherwise it's killing time

Gkrieg, chairs, anything you want to add?

My result was inconclusive.

Aww. It's slightly more likely that whoever you didn't target is scum, so who was it?

[jotheonah]

Pretty sure I still want to lynch MiX today.

vote: MiX

[EFHW]

Galz targeted MiX. That's townpoints, but could also be part of the gambit. I assume Galz made that choice because I asked, but also -- Galz, are you scumreading MiX currently?

If rhe gambit, then it would be scum!MiX promoting himself,  right?

[EFHW]

Targeted chairs.

[MiX]

No, you don't. Just watch when gkrieg or chairs flip scum and it exonorates Galz. Then we lynch the other one and BAM easy win. No need to do another mislynch.

Also gkrieg's L-1 vote on Glooble is hella scummy. I also like how chairs was behind him, not obvious at all...

Targeted chairs.

Good.

Challenge: gkrieg, not official because who needs the full day anyway?

[jotheonah]

Also gkrieg's L-1 vote on Glooble is hella scummy.

says the derphammerer

[jotheonah]

To be clear: I do not buy that MiX hammered Glooble by accident. MiX is a much more careful player than that.

[MiX]

Not this game: I think I paid attention solely on D2. Just look at all of my D3, was I calculating?

[jotheonah]

Not this game: I think I paid attention solely on D2. Just look at all of my D3, was I calculating?

Kinda yeah.

[Galzria]

Galz targeted MiX. That's townpoints, but could also be part of the gambit. I assume Galz made that choice because I asked, but also -- Galz, are you scumreading MiX currently?

Not just because you asked, but because it felt like the right choice given how yesterday went, various rereads, Glooble, etc.

Your choice, Faust’s, & EFHW all carried equal weight in my mind. FWIW, I was on the fence between MiX & Chairs - but decided that MiX was ultimately the “more correct” choice given everything.

I would prefer MiX to challenge Chairs.

[SpaceAnemone]

Sorry I disappeared at the end of D3! I had such an awesome weekend of music things and people-hosting that I kind of failed to check in at all until after the hammer...

[gkrieg13]

No, you don't. Just watch when gkrieg or chairs flip scum and it exonorates Galz. Then we lynch the other one and BAM easy win. No need to do another mislynch.

Also gkrieg's L-1 vote on Glooble is hella scummy. I also like how chairs was behind him, not obvious at all...

Targeted chairs.

Good.

Challenge: gkrieg, not official because who needs the full day anyway?

Keep in mind that I was tracked by faust D1, which makes it less likely that I'm scum. What makes me scummier than chairs? And what makes my L-1 scummy? I was clearly rereading D2, hadn't gotten to D3 yet. And how is my unannounced L-1 somehow scummier than your hammer?

[MiX]

I forgot you were tracked, the final vote on Glooble is scummy enough, L-1's scummy because you were paying attention to things and it's townier than my hammer because I'm town. Ew, my case on you is bad.

Vote: chairs

[gkrieg13]

I forgot you were tracked, the final vote on Glooble is scummy enough, L-1's scummy because you were paying attention to things and it's townier than my hammer because I'm town. Ew, my case on you is bad.

Vote: chairs

How was I paying attention to things?

[MiX]

I forgot you were tracked, the final vote on Glooble is scummy enough, L-1's scummy because you were paying attention to things and it's townier than my hammer because I'm town. Ew, my case on you is bad.

Vote: chairs

How was I paying attention to things?

Well mostly in your reread. But you're right that it was focused on D2, which is also why I moved my vote.

[EFHW]

Sorry I disappeared at the end of D3! I had such an awesome weekend of music things and people-hosting that I kind of failed to check in at all until after the hammer...

I'm starting to get jealous of your awesome social life!

[jotheonah]

Living players: chairs, jotheonah, MiX, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

ICs: Space, EFHW
Almost IC: joth, ADK?
Town unless they aren’t: MiX, Galz
Probably scum: chairs, gkrieg

That’s kinda where I am. Thoughts?

[jotheonah]

Here’s the thing: chairs and gkrieg are acting nothing like I would expect scum to be acting at this point in this situation. MiX has been acting exactly how I’d expect scum to act. That’s why o want to lynch him. I’ll take reads over PoE any day of the week.

[EFHW]

Why is ADK almost IC?

I'd take POE over reads most days.

[chairs]

I’m trying to picture a scenario where mix flips so hard and so suddenly on gkrieg without it feeling like he’s scum trying to see what sticks and avoid making folks too mad and I’m struggling

[SpaceAnemone]

Sorry I disappeared at the end of D3! I had such an awesome weekend of music things and people-hosting that I kind of failed to check in at all until after the hammer...

I'm starting to get jealous of your awesome social life!

Come visit Oxford! It's full of lovely smart people and fun stuff :-)

OTOH, now I'm ridiculously tired, and also nursing a cold/sore throat/ear ache because people are germy creatures...

[SpaceAnemone]

@Chairs, could you please remind me of some townie things you've done this game so far?

[SpaceAnemone]

Here’s the thing: chairs and gkrieg are acting nothing like I would expect scum to be acting at this point in this situation. MiX has been acting exactly how I’d expect scum to act. That’s why o want to lynch him. I’ll take reads over PoE any day of the week.

Okay, but recall that town!MiX also acts like people expect scum to act. The real question here is whether scum!MiX is more likely than town!MiX to be behaving that way.

[Galzria]

Living players: chairs, jotheonah, MiX, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

ICs: Space, EFHW
Almost IC: joth, ADK?
Town unless they aren’t: MiX, Galz
Probably scum: chairs, gkrieg

That’s kinda where I am. Thoughts?

My list looks different, but only slightly:

ICs: Space, EFHW, Joth
Town that will be IC at some point: Galz
Town unless he isn’t: ADK (Need to look at this more closely)
Probably Scum: Chairs, Gkrieg, MiX

Of those, Gkrieg has the smallest point in his favor that, at least if he’s scum, he didn’t shoot N1.

[Galzria]

Here’s the thing: chairs and gkrieg are acting nothing like I would expect scum to be acting at this point in this situation. MiX has been acting exactly how I’d expect scum to act. That’s why o want to lynch him. I’ll take reads over PoE any day of the week.

Okay, but recall that town!MiX also acts like people expect scum to act. The real question here is whether scum!MiX is more likely than town!MiX to be behaving that way.

MiX’s setup talk early D1/D2 don’t feel like they come from scum that knows the setup - and yes, that can certainly be faked, but it’s difficult to do so fully and consistently at the level he did. That said, there is nobody in the game right now who’s posts gut read scum the past two game days. Nothing feels genuine about their posts, and I just struggle to take them seriously, which doesn’t feel like a town trait here.

[jotheonah]

Why is ADK almost IC?

I'd take POE over reads most days.

Guaranteed town strongly believed he was the lynchee and the lynchee is necessarily town.

[Galzria]

Here’s the thing: chairs and gkrieg are acting nothing like I would expect scum to be acting at this point in this situation. MiX has been acting exactly how I’d expect scum to act. That’s why o want to lynch him. I’ll take reads over PoE any day of the week.

Okay, but recall that town!MiX also acts like people expect scum to act. The real question here is whether scum!MiX is more likely than town!MiX to be behaving that way.

MiX’s setup talk early D1/D2 don’t feel like they come from scum that knows the setup - and yes, that can certainly be faked, but it’s difficult to do so fully and consistently at the level he did. That said, there is nobody in the game right now who’s posts gut read scum more than MiX’sthe past two game days. Nothing feels genuine about their posts, and I just struggle to take them seriously, which doesn’t feel like a town trait here.

Added bold for clarity of thought.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Galz/mix is crazy talk; PoE says it's gkrieg/chairs. I'm cool if MiX challenges either of them.

[EFHW]

Galz/mix is crazy talk; PoE says it's gkrieg/chairs. I'm cool if MiX challenges either of them.

Same

[gkrieg13]

Galz/mix is crazy talk; PoE says it's gkrieg/chairs. I'm cool if MiX challenges either of them.

Except I know it’s not me so my best guess is maybe chairs and ADK?

[MiX]

Who needs challenges here? We could just lynch gkrieg/chairs in the here and now.

Galz/mix is crazy talk; PoE says it's gkrieg/chairs. I'm cool if MiX challenges either of them.

Except I know it’s not me so my best guess is maybe chairs and ADK?

Wait...do you think I'm town? Okay...

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 4.1

Looks like an interesting day to me, what do you think, Uncleeurope?

Uncleeurope attempted to maintain his composure. To be patronized in this way was hugely disrespectful.

"No, no... He must be taunting me, somehow he has deduced that I want his power, and he is going to stop me," he muttered to himself, "he knows. He must know."

But who told him? Or did LaLight know everything in addition to his power? How was he able to maintain both clarity and power so seamlessly? Maybe Uncleeurope was wrong, maybe with great power comes great clarity, maybe the ability to know isn't befuddled by power?

If this was true, Uncleeurope feared that LaLight could not be stopped.

"Stop thinking those things, your time will come, Eddie. Just keep doing what he tells you and an opportunity will present itself."

Uncleeurope took his own advice and sat down to work on a vote count.

MiX (1): jotheonah
chairs (1): MiX

Not voting (6): chairs, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW


With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 4 ends 20th of May, 9:30 am ft.


"You ever think that maybe LaLight is using your vote counts to figure out your plans?

Nah, unlikely."

[jotheonah]

It really is not crazy talk. And let's not forget that MiX could be scum without Galz.

[chairs]

So basically mix is challenging gkrieg or myself? Ok.

Scum to chum in that group is gkrieg, mix, myself. I would vote gkrieg over mix and obviously either over myself since I know I’m town.

[MiX]

I have a strong urge to challenge someone here...but it would be entirely at random. Probably chairs.

So basically mix is challenging gkrieg or myself? Ok.

Scum to chum in that group is gkrieg, mix, myself. I would vote gkrieg over mix and obviously either over myself since I know I’m town.

What have you done that was towny?

[chairs]

I’ve attempted to limit my posting to when I had something to say rather than posting to post - a lot of posts are seen as towny but I’ve been thinking about that lately and I think -meaningful- posts are more relevant - if there’s no meat in your post is it anything more than a waste of characters?

[MiX]

I’ve attempted to limit my posting to when I had something to say rather than posting to post - a lot of posts are seen as towny but I’ve been thinking about that lately and I think -meaningful- posts are more relevant - if there’s no meat in your post is it anything more than a waste of characters?

Can you point me to those very meaningful posts?

[chairs]

Seeing as I am effectively playing exclusively from a phone, that will be difficult. If the situation changes such that I can link you my posts I will let you know.

[jotheonah]

We’re like halfway to Mix’s deadline

[MiX]

We’re like halfway to Mix’s deadline

Fun. Do you prefer gkrieg or chairs?

[jotheonah]

We’re like halfway to Mix’s deadline

Fun. Do you prefer gkrieg or chairs?

Between the two, I'd say

vote: MiX

[MiX]

Uhuh. Uhuh. What if you were town?

[jotheonah]

Uhuh. Uhuh. What if you were town?

If you're asking who you should challenge, I'd say chairs. gkrieg's posts have read townier to me and he does have that one investigative result to his name.

[MiX]

Challenge: chairs

Vote: chairs

Can we do this already?

[EFHW]

vote: chairs

[jotheonah]

vote: MiX

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 4.2

Uncleeurope pondered death.

Life, in many ways, is dull and confusing. People are deceitful and fake.

It has been said that a life threatening situation can bring out the best qualities in human beings, others have said that such circumstances bring out the worst in people.

Uncleeurope believed it was both. He believed that when it came down to it, people's lies and masks were dismantled and discarded in times of great danger or death. It left people with nothing to hide behind, save their true selves. The good and the bad intermingled to create a single human being.

Uncleeurope believed that death brought clarity.

MiX (1):	VS	chairs (2):
jotheonah		MiX
		EFHW

Not voting (5): chairs, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone


With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 4 ends 20th of May, 9:30 am ft.

[gkrieg13]

vote: chairs

Although MiX is also pretty scummy, his earlier days just don't read as scum to me, and I don't feel like he would bus DatSwan as hard as he did.

[chairs]

vote: mix

WELCOME TO THE THUNDERDOME BABY

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote : chairs

That's L-1

[Galzria]

Neat. Could hammer. One IC on each.

Joth, as you’re IC & scum reading MiX:

How strongly do you think ADK is town?

There are essentially 4 people that can possibly be scum: ADK/Gkrieg/MiX/Chairs. If ADK is town, then we win. Even if we’re wrong today, then scum can only be the final two. Glooble thought ADK was the Lynchee:

EFHW, Space & Joth: Can each of you reread & confirm your own belief that this is most likely true?

Also for you three: if Chairs is scum, A) Does scum!MiX challenge him here? B) How quickly would his partner jump on him over MiX?

[gkrieg13]

unvote

I want all the ICs to weigh in here.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Neat. Could hammer. One IC on each.

Joth, as you’re IC & scum reading MiX:

How strongly do you think ADK is town?

There are essentially 4 people that can possibly be scum: ADK/Gkrieg/MiX/Chairs. If ADK is town, then we win. Even if we’re wrong today, then scum can only be the final two. Glooble thought ADK was the Lynchee:

EFHW, Space & Joth: Can each of you reread & confirm your own belief that this is most likely true?

Also for you three: if Chairs is scum, A) Does scum!MiX challenge him here? B) How quickly would his partner jump on him over MiX?

A) probably not
B) pretty quickly

I would expect scum to bus here, but if mix is scum, I don't think he would be pick his partner unless forced to, and I think he could easily have gotten away with picking gkrieg

[jotheonah]

Neat. Could hammer. One IC on each.

Joth, as you’re IC & scum reading MiX:

How strongly do you think ADK is town?

There are essentially 4 people that can possibly be scum: ADK/Gkrieg/MiX/Chairs. If ADK is town, then we win. Even if we’re wrong today, then scum can only be the final two. Glooble thought ADK was the Lynchee:

On whether ADK is lynchee, I am sheeping other townies. I am not actually sure what the evidence is and I don't have a firsthand read on it.

On whether he's town, I have a general sense that he is, but I'm not super strongly confident.

EFHW, Space & Joth: Can each of you reread & confirm your own belief that this is most likely true?

Also for you three: if Chairs is scum, A) Does scum!MiX challenge him here? B) How quickly would his partner jump on him over MiX?

A) Very possibly. I don't think people give MiX enough credit for how gutsy he can be.

B) It depends on who the partner is, but generally I expect the partner to be voting chairs here. There's very little risk and a lot of reward.

[MiX]

Okay so let's see joth's "MiX is scum with chairs" logic:

- D1, Swan pushes Joseph and I stay on joth to distance, not knowing he was Lyncher.

- D2, knowing promoter and challenger are town, I buddy joth immediately, knowing I would die over him. As I do so, I bus Swan repetedly, knowing that Swan would get lynched over joth. When the challenge happens, I never swap votes.

- D3, I feint being really unfocused, so I have full liberty to move my vote around, scumreading Glooble for a solid plan that outs my team, eventually quicklynching him with the help of chairs and gkrieg, excusing myself with gkrieg not saying it was L-1.

- D4, I'm challenged, knowing the danger I'm in, between the two possible scum from a town!me perspective, I pick scum, I bus as hard as possible, knowing whoever lives gets towncred.

- Now, I detail my entire plan to town in hopes I'm the one that lives because I have more towncred.

- D5 and D6, whoever's alive convinces everyone ADK's scum (and gkrieg too, even after he flips town) and we lynch him for the win.


Lol. You know that the above plan...gets us killed, right? There's no way ADK is lynched. But hey, joth, feel free to walk right into paranoia: after all, I'm the best busser around, bussing Swan incredibly early and now challenging the other partner.

Tl;Dr: if I'm scum with chairs I just commited suicide.

[EFHW]

Scum!MiX would not challenge scum!chairs.

Scum!chairs' partner would bus. Maybe in a hedgy way.

unvote

I want all the ICs to weigh in here.

[gkrieg13]

Scum!MiX would not challenge scum!chairs.

Scum!chairs' partner would bus. Maybe in a hedgy way.

unvote

I want all the ICs to weigh in here.

Not hedgy. Someone was put to L-1 without all the ICs even posting.

[Galzria]

Still waiting on Space but:

I think it would’ve been near suicide for scum!MiX to target town!gkrieg over scum!chairs after enough town had come forth to push him to pick Chairs. That choice would have resulted in MiX getting snap lynched, and would almost guarantee that Chairs then went tomorrow.

My concern regarding ADK is that, as I noted before: If he’s town, and we accept this to be true, then we win and nothing can prevent this from happening. There must be two scum in {Gkrieg, ADK, MiX, Chairs}, and if we’ve correctly removed ADK as Town then even lynching wrong today means that we can simply lynch the other two and win on the following days.

Given this, where’s the fight to dispel the notion that ADK is town? A fight that, if he IS in fact town, scum MUST make in order to have a chance of winning? I’m not saying this because I necessarily think that ADK is scum - like Joth, I’ve taken him to be town at the word of dead townies thus far - it’s just that Joth & I aren’t the only two, and it starts to ring worrisome when certain non-IC players, the same players who themselves must contain scum, begin to take up the mantle of pushing this theory.

I haven’t had the time to do due diligence and really reread the players that I need to feel confident. To see exactly who’s buying into what, how hard they’re buying it, etc. Right now I feel the play has been rushed and sloppy, and if we’re setup to win already then slowing down only slows the process - it doesn’t stop it from happening. But if we’re on course to throw away a game that should’ve been won easily following Swan’s death, then slowing down can certainly help right the ship.

[jotheonah]

My brain's a little dead rn Galz, so help me parse this: If [gkrieg/chairs/MiX] is scum and ADK is town, then scum's only hope is to get ADK mislynched, so [gkrieg/chairs/MiX] should be pushing back against the townread on ADK.

But if ADK is scum, then the townread is a godsend and scum would love to lock it in.

This makes a lot of sense. And if this were a normal day it would be a great time to start an ADK wagon, but of course our choice is now between MiX and chairs, whether we like it or not. So the question is, does the ADK question affect the MiX/chairs question. Is one of them more or less likely to be ADK's partner?

[Galzria]

My brain's a little dead rn Galz, so help me parse this: If [gkrieg/chairs/MiX] is scum and ADK is town, then scum's only hope is to get ADK mislynched, so [gkrieg/chairs/MiX] should be pushing back against the townread on ADK.

But if ADK is scum, then the townread is a godsend and scum would love to lock it in.

This makes a lot of sense. And if this were a normal day it would be a great time to start an ADK wagon, but of course our choice is now between MiX and chairs, whether we like it or not. So the question is, does the ADK question affect the MiX/chairs question. Is one of them more or less likely to be ADK's partner?

This is exactly where I’m at, yes, and would like to at least consider closer before making a MiX/Chairs decision.

[MiX]

If you accept I'm town, the ADK question doesn't matter. That's literally my gameplan here.

[jotheonah]

If you accept I'm town, the ADK question doesn't matter. That's literally my gameplan here.

The ADK question matters, the MiX question matters and the Galz question still matters. This is why reads > PoE. If you PoE wrong, you’re kinda screwed. And PoE can lead you to build up piles of assumptions and then realize one of the ones on the bottom was wrong and the whole tower is bad.

[jotheonah]

If chairs/gkrieg is the scum team then they’ve literally given up. They’re doing nothing to fight the inevitable.

[MiX]

If chairs/gkrieg is the scum team then they’ve literally given up. They’re doing nothing to fight the inevitable.

Anything they do digs their grave. The only chance they have is if town flips their stance on ADK and also lynch me. From what I've seen of them, that's precisely what they're doing.

[Galzria]

My brain's a little dead rn Galz, so help me parse this: If [gkrieg/chairs/MiX] is scum and ADK is town, then scum's only hope is to get ADK mislynched, so [gkrieg/chairs/MiX] should be pushing back against the townread on ADK.

But if ADK is scum, then the townread is a godsend and scum would love to lock it in.

This makes a lot of sense. And if this were a normal day it would be a great time to start an ADK wagon, but of course our choice is now between MiX and chairs, whether we like it or not. So the question is, does the ADK question affect the MiX/chairs question. Is one of them more or less likely to be ADK's partner?

This is exactly where I’m at, yes, and would like to at least consider closer before making a MiX/Chairs decision.

And honestly, it may be that ADK is town and a reread of Joseph & the whole thing doesn’t matter & right now scum is sitting on town waiting to see if we do this whole thing to ourselves because they can’t openly make this argument about ADK without being obvious. But still.

[MiX]

Er...precisely what I said Galzria. Quite right, old chap. So, does that make me town yet?

[gkrieg13]

My brain's a little dead rn Galz, so help me parse this: If [gkrieg/chairs/MiX] is scum and ADK is town, then scum's only hope is to get ADK mislynched, so [gkrieg/chairs/MiX] should be pushing back against the townread on ADK.

But if ADK is scum, then the townread is a godsend and scum would love to lock it in.

This makes a lot of sense. And if this were a normal day it would be a great time to start an ADK wagon, but of course our choice is now between MiX and chairs, whether we like it or not. So the question is, does the ADK question affect the MiX/chairs question. Is one of them more or less likely to be ADK's partner?

This is also true if ADK is scum, then the two town in [gkrieg/chairs/MiX] should be fighting that townread, which is what I have started to do, but there is just no reason to go there today. Either way from my perspective, there is scum in the two that are up for lynch today. It's also possible that they are both scum.

[MiX]

My brain's a little dead rn Galz, so help me parse this: If [gkrieg/chairs/MiX] is scum and ADK is town, then scum's only hope is to get ADK mislynched, so [gkrieg/chairs/MiX] should be pushing back against the townread on ADK.

But if ADK is scum, then the townread is a godsend and scum would love to lock it in.

This makes a lot of sense. And if this were a normal day it would be a great time to start an ADK wagon, but of course our choice is now between MiX and chairs, whether we like it or not. So the question is, does the ADK question affect the MiX/chairs question. Is one of them more or less likely to be ADK's partner?

This is also true if ADK is scum, then the two town in [gkrieg/chairs/MiX] should be fighting that townread, which is what I have started to do, but there is just no reason to go there today. Either way from my perspective, there is scum in the two that are up for lynch today. It's also possible that they are both scum.

I think we should only go paranoid if chairs flips town. I know I would, since it would mean I could not get lynched. Untill then, meh, if chairs flips scum then it's all according to the plan.

[jotheonah]

What if Galz is scum and his whole "ADK must be scum because no ones trying to fight his townification" IS the effort to fight his townification?

[MiX]

What if Galz is scum and his whole "ADK must be scum because no ones trying to fight his townification" IS the effort to fight his townification?

Galz has no need to push this, for he can simply get lucky with his partner not dying. Unlike gkrieg/chairs, a Galz team has a chance of simply lynching 2 town.

[Galzria]

What if Galz is scum and his whole "ADK must be scum because no ones trying to fight his townification" IS the effort to fight his townification?

What if Galz is scum and his whole "ADK must be scum because no ones trying to fight his townification" IS the effort to fight his townification?

Galz has no need to push this, for he can simply get lucky with his partner not dying. Unlike gkrieg/chairs, a Galz team has a chance of simply lynching 2 town.

What if Galz is scum and his whole "ADK must be scum because no ones trying to fight his townification" IS the effort to fight his townification?

Galz has no need to push this, for he can simply get lucky with his partner not dying. Unlike gkrieg/chairs, a Galz team has a chance of simply lynching 2 town.

Pretty much this. In a world where I’m scum then I still win with the “ignore ADK and lynch out {MiX, Chairs, ADK} strategy.

[Galzria]

What if Galz is scum and his whole "ADK must be scum because no ones trying to fight his townification" IS the effort to fight his townification?

What if Galz is scum and his whole "ADK must be scum because no ones trying to fight his townification" IS the effort to fight his townification?

Galz has no need to push this, for he can simply get lucky with his partner not dying. Unlike gkrieg/chairs, a Galz team has a chance of simply lynching 2 town.

What if Galz is scum and his whole "ADK must be scum because no ones trying to fight his townification" IS the effort to fight his townification?

Galz has no need to push this, for he can simply get lucky with his partner not dying. Unlike gkrieg/chairs, a Galz team has a chance of simply lynching 2 town.

Pretty much this. In a world where I’m scum then I still win with the “ignore ADK and lynch out {MiX, Chairs, gkrieg} strategy.

Sorry, bolded mistaken player.

[jotheonah]

unless MiX is your partner and the scum promoter, in which case it’s imperative he not get lynched because his flip would out you

[Galzria]

unless MiX is your partner and the scum promoter, in which case it’s imperative he not get lynched because his flip would out you

And he self promoted today when it’s “imperative he not get lynched because his flip would out you”?

[gkrieg13]

Especially considering I probably would have challenged chairs today.

[EFHW]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

Vote: ADK

There are a bunch more ADK votes, this is just the first one. Plus this:

ADK has had six different players vote for them.

Faust - for ADK name dropping the traitor a whole bunch
Joseph - sheep’s Faust (before Faust gave reasons)
MiX - (presumably voting for a different viable wagon)
Joth - unexplained
Swan - based on the amount of promoter talk ADK engaged I
Chairs - sheep’s Faust (after Faust gave reasons)
Faust return
Mix return
Joesph return

I had my own reasons too

I guess we think Joseph would go for the individual win even though doctor would be a valuable role for town to have?

Makes even more sense that he was lynched then, since his loyalties were divided. That may have come across somehow.

[MiX]

unless MiX is your partner and the scum promoter, in which case it’s imperative he not get lynched because his flip would out you

And he self promoted today when it’s “imperative he not get lynched because his flip would out you”?

Don't worry buddy, I have like infinity towncred, I'll never out us, don't worry about it.


So, can anyone tell me in what scenario chairs is less scum than me? Even if it's Galzria, it could be chairs, you know.

[jotheonah]

I could buy chairs as traitor.

[jotheonah]

Don't worry buddy, I have like infinity towncred, I'll never out us, don't worry about it.

It would be funny if it weren’t apparently entirely true.

[SpaceAnemone]

My brain's a little dead rn Galz, so help me parse this: If [gkrieg/chairs/MiX] is scum and ADK is town, then scum's only hope is to get ADK mislynched, so [gkrieg/chairs/MiX] should be pushing back against the townread on ADK.

But if ADK is scum, then the townread is a godsend and scum would love to lock it in.

This makes a lot of sense. And if this were a normal day it would be a great time to start an ADK wagon, but of course our choice is now between MiX and chairs, whether we like it or not. So the question is, does the ADK question affect the MiX/chairs question. Is one of them more or less likely to be ADK's partner?

I guess the utility in talking about this stuff now is that there are more townies and ICs alive right now than there are likely to be tomorrow after a NK.

On a related note, sorry I'm being such an absent IC right now! I'll try to sink in half an hour of reading and stuff at the moment, then tomorrow night may be sparse, and Saturday night is Eurovision :-P

[chairs]

The logic pretzeling is real

[jotheonah]

The logic pretzeling is real

Are you at all concerned about your impending lynch?

[SpaceAnemone]

Was the main part of the argument for ADK being town that someone thought that Joseph was voting there a lot?

Here's the list of Joseph's votes, in case it's helpful in picking out a VT:

Votes "Space" at 20.
Votes "ADK" at 106.
Votes "chairs" at 165.
Votes "galz" at 364.
Votes "joth" at 420.
Votes "ADK" at 438.
Votes "mix" at 485.
Votes "ADK" at 529.
Votes "joth" at 590.

That's two joth votes, three ADK votes. His assorted other votes include me and galz, who are non-VTs (or at least, I abbreviate to VT, but the V is not vanilla!), so I don't think it says much about the assumed innocence of anyone else on that list, like chairs or MiX. Of the currently-alive people, the missing one is gkrieg, so I guess he's probably not the lynchee, but that's probably not terribly significant.

[SpaceAnemone]

Mods: may I post a coloured-in voting-history log?

EFHW asked for voting records at the end of D3, but the game had hit the night phase before I caught up.

[Uncleeurope]

Mods: may I post a coloured-in voting-history log?

EFHW asked for voting records at the end of D3, but the game had hit the night phase before I caught up.

Uncleeurope didn’t mind.

He was fairly certain the Mod colors were the only ones that were banned.

[jotheonah]

I can't believe we still have 4 days left in this day that has ground to a halt.

[MiX]

I can't believe we still have 4 days left in this day that has ground to a halt.

Mostly because you want to entertain the idea that I can be scum. I guess I understand, but chairs is a much better lynch anyway.

[gkrieg13]

I'm waiting for Space to post stuff.

[gkrieg13]

The logic pretzeling is real

This does seem like chairs has stopped trying.

[jotheonah]

I can't believe we still have 4 days left in this day that has ground to a halt.

Mostly because you want to entertain the idea that I can be scum. I guess I understand, but chairs is a much better lynch anyway.

You know if you would stop being so scummy it would help a lot.

[MiX]

I can't believe we still have 4 days left in this day that has ground to a halt.

Mostly because you want to entertain the idea that I can be scum. I guess I understand, but chairs is a much better lynch anyway.

You know if you would stop being so scummy it would help a lot.

I'm actually doing everything I can to make everyone be able to read me as best as they can in hope they figure out I'm town, but I guess it makes sense that I'm actually scum because I say a lot of "jokes" that are mostly useless banter, especially from D3 on. There's not a lot I can do in terms of reads and cracking the game, at least that don't assume I'm town, and even that I already did, but since I'm town a lot of speculation goes away. I don't know how to stop "being so scummy" but maybe this serious reply to an obvious-in-retrospect joke helps.

[jotheonah]

I guess it makes sense that I'm actually scum

--MiX

[MiX]

I guess it makes sense that I'm actually scum

--MiX

Sigh...okay I get it I won't persuade you. Meh.

[EFHW]

I can't believe we still have 4 days left in this day that has ground to a halt.

Mostly because you want to entertain the idea that I can be scum. I guess I understand, but chairs is a much better lynch anyway.

You know if you would stop being so scummy it would help a lot.

You seem scummy to me. So does Galz. But mostly likely I'm wrong. gkrieg seems towny.  Probably wrong there, too.

[chairs]

FWIW I think it’s Town Galz. Don’t have much else to say atm.

[jotheonah]

People who have played with chairs ... does scum!chairs just give up like this when he's overwhelmingly likely to be lynched? that feels much more like a town thing to me.

People who are voting chairs: Do you really think he's scum? Do you just think he's scummier then MiX? Is this all just PoE?

[EFHW]

People who have played with chairs ... does scum!chairs just give up like this when he's overwhelmingly likely to be lynched? that feels much more like a town thing to me.

People who are voting chairs: Do you really think he's scum? Do you just think he's scummier then MiX? Is this all just PoE?

I'm thinking about the VCA Glooble did. I don't think I've seen him fight as town or scum. I also have a strong townread on MiX. Maybe his appeals to emotion worked on me, but I don't have any reason to vote him.

[MiX]

Yay emotion! I usually prefer cold hard deduction but emotion's so much better as town since you know it will eventually be a towntell.

[A Drowned Kernel]

People who have played with chairs ... does scum!chairs just give up like this when he's overwhelmingly likely to be lynched? that feels much more like a town thing to me.

People who are voting chairs: Do you really think he's scum? Do you just think he's scummier then MiX? Is this all just PoE?

It's not all just PoE. chairs had lurked all game, and with his life on the line doesn't seem to be making any real attempt to make a case on mix. Mix has been much more active and all his weirdness seems to me like it's more likely to be town mix than not.

[jotheonah]

"with his life on the line doesn't seem to be making any real attempt to make a case on mix."

This is what worries me. Seems townie.

[jotheonah]

could we get a vote count?

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 4.2

"Why does everything have to be so boring."

Uncleeurope was bored.

"I hate this."

He hated this.

MiX (2):	VS	chairs (3):
jotheonah		MiX
chairs		EFHW
		A Drowned Kernel

Not voting (3): Galzria, SpaceAnemone, gkrieg13


With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 4 ends 20th of May, 9:30 am ft.

[A Drowned Kernel]

"with his life on the line doesn't seem to be making any real attempt to make a case on mix."

This is what worries me. Seems townie.

I mean, if the scum team is chairs/gkrieg, then they might feel like their only real hope is to go quiet and let people paranoid-talk themselves into switching to mix. chairs has a pretty lurky meta already, so I'm betting that scum!chairs would be banking on that saving him here.

[jotheonah]

"with his life on the line doesn't seem to be making any real attempt to make a case on mix."

This is what worries me. Seems townie.

I mean, if the scum team is chairs/gkrieg, then they might feel like their only real hope is to go quiet and let people paranoid-talk themselves into switching to mix. chairs has a pretty lurky meta already, so I'm betting that scum!chairs would be banking on that saving him here.

This seems like a stretch.

[MiX]

"with his life on the line doesn't seem to be making any real attempt to make a case on mix."

This is what worries me. Seems townie.

I mean, if the scum team is chairs/gkrieg, then they might feel like their only real hope is to go quiet and let people paranoid-talk themselves into switching to mix. chairs has a pretty lurky meta already, so I'm betting that scum!chairs would be banking on that saving him here.

This seems like a stretch.

So instead I bussed Swan and chairs? Yep, seems more plausible.

[chairs]

Not even sure where to start on how ridiculous this all is.

[EFHW]

"with his life on the line doesn't seem to be making any real attempt to make a case on mix."

This is what worries me. Seems townie.

I mean, if the scum team is chairs/gkrieg, then they might feel like their only real hope is to go quiet and let people paranoid-talk themselves into switching to mix. chairs has a pretty lurky meta already, so I'm betting that scum!chairs would be banking on that saving him here.

I'd be hoping the paranoid talk would save me.

[EFHW]

Not even sure where to start on how ridiculous this all is.

What exactly is ridiculous?

[jotheonah]

It's a little weird that gkrieg hasn't put down a vote yet.

[jotheonah]

"with his life on the line doesn't seem to be making any real attempt to make a case on mix."

This is what worries me. Seems townie.

I mean, if the scum team is chairs/gkrieg, then they might feel like their only real hope is to go quiet and let people paranoid-talk themselves into switching to mix. chairs has a pretty lurky meta already, so I'm betting that scum!chairs would be banking on that saving him here.

This seems like a stretch.

So instead I bussed Swan and chairs? Yep, seems more plausible.

Can you explain this, especially the chairs part?

[MiX]

So instead I bussed Swan and chairs? Yep, seems more plausible.

Can you explain this, especially the chairs part?

Weren't you going around with "MiX would challenge chairs otherwise he would be snap lynched" or something? So clearly in a Swan!MiX!chairs team I bus both of my partners hardcore, right? That makes perfect sense...

Of course, you might say this makes more sense for a Swan!MiX!gkrieg team, which I agree with. But thinking it could be both me and chairs is pure paranoia that has no grounds on reality, which was my point when making that post.

[gkrieg13]

It's a little weird that gkrieg hasn't put down a vote yet.

I've already said that I'm waiting for Space to post their vote count stuff and then I will vote for chairs. Didn't want to give him the opportunity to hammer himself before that info was out.

[gkrieg13]

It's a little weird that gkrieg hasn't put down a vote yet.

This is actually just a weird statement. Wouldn't you want all the ICs to weigh in before the day was over?

[jotheonah]

It's a little weird that gkrieg hasn't put down a vote yet.

I've already said that I'm waiting for Space to post their vote count stuff and then I will vote for chairs. Didn't want to give him the opportunity to hammer himself before that info was out.

:/

It's a little weird that gkrieg hasn't put down a vote yet.

This is actually just a weird statement. Wouldn't you want all the ICs to weigh in before the day was over?

I'm just trying to look at this from the perspective of "what would chairs' partner be doing now?" And I think, they'd be voting MiX, right? except with no one else voting MiX except me and chairs himself, that would look really bad tomorrow. So they'd be voting chairs, right? Bus early, bus often? But then they completely give up on saving him. So maybe they express an interest in voting chairs, but hold off as long as possible on actually doing it, while hoping that Space's vote analysis will give you cover to vote MiX without looking scummy?

[jotheonah]

So instead I bussed Swan and chairs? Yep, seems more plausible.

Can you explain this, especially the chairs part?

Weren't you going around with "MiX would challenge chairs otherwise he would be snap lynched" or something? So clearly in a Swan!MiX!chairs team I bus both of my partners hardcore, right? That makes perfect sense...

Of course, you might say this makes more sense for a Swan!MiX!gkrieg team, which I agree with. But thinking it could be both me and chairs is pure paranoia that has no grounds on reality, which was my point when making that post.

It's no more implausible than any other bus.

[MiX]

So instead I bussed Swan and chairs? Yep, seems more plausible.

Can you explain this, especially the chairs part?

Weren't you going around with "MiX would challenge chairs otherwise he would be snap lynched" or something? So clearly in a Swan!MiX!chairs team I bus both of my partners hardcore, right? That makes perfect sense...

Of course, you might say this makes more sense for a Swan!MiX!gkrieg team, which I agree with. But thinking it could be both me and chairs is pure paranoia that has no grounds on reality, which was my point when making that post.

It's no more implausible than any other bus.

Except that the bus has high risk (scum always gets lynched) and no reward (survivor is still on the lynch list).

[gkrieg13]

It's a little weird that gkrieg hasn't put down a vote yet.

I've already said that I'm waiting for Space to post their vote count stuff and then I will vote for chairs. Didn't want to give him the opportunity to hammer himself before that info was out.

:/

It's a little weird that gkrieg hasn't put down a vote yet.

This is actually just a weird statement. Wouldn't you want all the ICs to weigh in before the day was over?

I'm just trying to look at this from the perspective of "what would chairs' partner be doing now?" And I think, they'd be voting MiX, right? except with no one else voting MiX except me and chairs himself, that would look really bad tomorrow. So they'd be voting chairs, right? Bus early, bus often? But then they completely give up on saving him. So maybe they express an interest in voting chairs, but hold off as long as possible on actually doing it, while hoping that Space's vote analysis will give you cover to vote MiX without looking scummy?

I don't know why you are trying to make this something it isn't. If chairs is scum and I vote for him now, he will self-hammer. He is obviously getting lynched today. Waiting for Space to do something is not scummy in the slightest.

[Galzria]

Here’s where I’m feeling like the likely pairs can lie:

MiX-ADK
MiX-Gkrieg
Gkrieg-Chairs
ADK-Chairs

I don’t really see MiX-Chairs as SUUUPER likely, nor do I think Gkrieg-ADK is super likely (he’s the only person to try and dispel the ADK=Town theory).

This isn’t super helpful though, as it doesn’t actually narrow the field.

Sooo.... fuck me.

vote: Chairs

If I’m wrong we can reevaluate tomorrow.

Space: Need you to help out here. You’re super freaking valuable from a VCA analysis, and we’re missing this right now.

———

Side notes:

This is massively frustrating. Isolation’s aside: I gut read MiX as scum more than I do Chairs. But I HATE that Chairs isn’t bothering to try and convince us MiX is more likely scum than he is (which if he’s town MUST be true). And yet every non-IC has jumped on Chairs when MiX is very much conceivably viable. And yet why would scum!MiX claim VT D1 and not SEB? And worst of all, both may in fact be town if the scum team is ADK-Gkrieg!!!

I’ve had this post typed for more than 24 hours without posting and I’ve changed my vote 8+ times. I’ve settled on Chairs because of something Gkrieg said: If he’s scum and self-hammers... who the hell cares? It’s ridiculous to be afraid of scum!Chairs doing that. If he wants to do it, by all means man, go for it.

[MiX]

Galzria just stole my town pass: and my heart.

chairs, hammer already.

[chairs]

Sorry buckaroo I’m not gonna do that.

[jotheonah]

I’m tempted to do it. But dammit if I’m not curious what Space is cooking.

[jotheonah]

Galzy, I’d feel 100% better about you right now if you’d voted for MiX.

[Galzria]

I’m tempted to do it. But dammit if I’m not curious what Space is cooking.

Sorry. But I’m not casting my vote to make you feel better. If there’s honestly a better or more valid reason to think MiX is scum, I would vote there instead. I just haven’t seen anything convincing one way or the other.

[gkrieg13]

Ok if isn’t going to post I will hammer later today.

[gkrieg13]

If Space isn’t going to post*

[EFHW]

If Space isn’t going to post*

You had a space there.

[gkrieg13]

Space?

[gkrieg13]

Whatever. vote: chairs

[jotheonah]

Is that the hammer?

[MiX]

Should be. See you all tomorrow! And if he doesn't flip scum, feel free to kill me, we probably deserve to get outplayed by Galzria.

[LaLight]

Thread Locked

[LaLight]

Vote Count 4.final

LaLight knew Uncleeurope wants to take his place. The only thing Uncleeurope was not aware of was that there was a power controlling the mods... And LaLight could do nothing about it. He just sometimes felt the urge to mod, to make vote counts. Even the words you are reading right now, was they LaLight's doing? LaLight tried to warn Eddie with some cryptic messages, but it didn't work...

MiX (2):	VS	chairs (5):
jotheonah		MiX
chairs		EFHW
		A Drowned Kernel
		Galzria
		gkrieg13

Not voting (1): SpaceAnemone


With 8 alive, it took 5 to lynch.


Also chairs was lynched. He was a Mafia Goon.

[LaLight]

Night 4 starts now and ends in 48 hours, May 22nd, 4:16am.

[LaLight]

Did anyone see Uncleeurope? I am afraid my confession could turn his world around...

Also have anyone seen jotheonah, the Vanilla Townie? Me neither. (He died)

Day Five has started!

Not voting (6): MiX, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW


With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 5 ends 29th of May, 5 am ft.

Thread Unlocked.

[MiX]

Vote: gkrieg

Good game everyone!

[EFHW]

vote: gkrieg

[A Drowned Kernel]

vote: gkrieg

[A Drowned Kernel]

L-1 btw

[MiX]

Quickest scumlynch ever? Let's go for the world record!

[gkrieg13]

I’m not scum. We should slow down and at least reread chairs

[gkrieg13]

At least give me the chance to reread him and hopefully find the last scum.

[gkrieg13]

Also kind of a weird kill. It means that scum definitely bussed

[MiX]

At least give me the chance to reread him and hopefully find the last scum.

Honestly I think I have to be scum if you're town. But maybe I just got lucky and picked scum instead of you with the challenge? That would be fun.

Also kind of a weird kill. It means that scum definitely bussed

Literally just the most active IC.

[EFHW]

They killed the person most suspicious of MiX. Probably hoping to cast shadows over him.

[A Drowned Kernel]

They killed the person most suspicious of MiX. Probably hoping to cast shadows over him.

That's my guess too

[Galzria]

Gkrieg, if you’re scum, you can self hammer here - I’m not voting elsewhere today. If you’re town, I’ll give you 48 hours to look at which of MiX/ADK is more likely so that we may consider it tomorrow, but then I’m hammering you still.

[Galzria]

Assuming Gkrieg doesn’t self hammer and is town, I’ll be promoting ADK tonight. If he challenges anybody except for MiX tomorrow (ie one of Space/Me/EFHW - one of the three IC’s (although one of us will be dead)) then he’s basically admitted guilt.

I know it doesn’t seem like it needs to be said, but still. Better safe than dumb.

[gkrieg13]

Well basically I just have to convince you that it is ADK. MiX would have been extremely risky challenging his partner yesterday and heavily bussing Datswan.

[gkrieg13]

So I didn’t check the thread because I play on my phone whenever I get a new post notification....

I didn’t have notify enabled for this thread.


Oops!

Anyway screw the town promoter claiming. Also someone mentioned faith in vigilantes and I apologize for generating that faith on this board

vote: a drowned kernel the promoter claim discussion ended up getting us nowhere and feels distracting.

chairs RVS (kinda not really) for ADK D1.

[MiX]

Well basically I just have to convince you that it is ADK. MiX would have been extremely risky challenging his partner yesterday and heavily bussing Datswan.

If you think I cannot, under any circumnstances, be scum, then we win. Feel free to explain it as detailed as possible in case someone doesn't believe I'm the towniest non-IC alive.

[gkrieg13]

Is galzria 100% IC at this point?

[gkrieg13]

Is galzria 100% IC at this point?

Yes, because two goons flipped.

[gkrieg13]

I think ari is town. Too.... noisy? I guess is the word I want to use. Very few people can play the game the way ari is playing when they’re scum.

However I do think mix is scum.

vote: mix

Lol then his second vote is for Mix.

[gkrieg13]

Oh and Faust makes sense.

vote: adk

Then chairs goes back and votes for ADK

[gkrieg13]

Request prod on Space.

[gkrieg13]

I could vote: mix sure

Then back to MiX. So basically he voted for his partner twice in his first four votes.

[gkrieg13]

Wow I’m really happy with my mix vote now because I know when I was caught scum D1 in Harry Potter mafia I reacted the same way he just did

WIFOM here. Not sure if chairs is just bussing at this point or trying to paint MiX.

[gkrieg13]

Grr. The more I think about it, the more I agree that mix isn’t scum - i would have expected a pr  claim to see if I could at least draw out a town pr

Although this is how I would jump off a partner.

[gkrieg13]

I would vote myself, I think. Given I'm VT, that's probably the safest play.

Bold move, Cotton.

Welp there goes me voting jotheonah over mix.

vote: mix

This again would have to be a pretty big bus, considering he said he would vote joth.

[gkrieg13]

I don’t believe someone could play this way as scum. Can’t get behind a mix lynch.

vote: glooble

Has now changed to defending MiX.

[gkrieg13]

So ADK spends a lot of their first posts talking about promoter claiming. Seems like it is a pro-town thing, but something scum!ADK would know someone in town would think of anyway.

[gkrieg13]

Of the people who have participated in the setup discussion:

MiX- I'm leaning town, his posts tend to have an organic feel to them
joth- Leaning scum, his posts seem more reactive and less "rock-the-boat"
mcmc- The idea that MiX is/was traitor hunting seems like a reach to me, but also looks like genuine scumhunting, so some townpoints
galz- Disagreement on the power level of promoter aside, I think his post about where scum falls in the discussion was a little scummy; it looks like he's making a definitive statement without committing him to any particular read
faust- I can never read faust, I'll just assume that he's town for now
datswan- seems confused about the setup, his posts confuse me so I'm confused as to where his confusion actually lies. Pretty much null here.

vote: joth

In this post they mention one partner with a very null read.

[gkrieg13]

In all seriousness, though, I am kind of a bizarre omission from that post, given that ADK and I had a direct exchange concerning the setup.

That was awhile ago. Looking back at your posts, my question for you is, what info were you hoping to get out of asking me if I thought that a compulsive vig was negative utility?

They leave one person off their list, making it likely that they were thinking about the list more to get it to look townie than to actually put thoughts out there.

[gkrieg13]

ADK also seems to have thought a lot about the setup, and knows exactly how it works. I don't remember them being so much into setup analysis stuff, but could be wrong.

[gkrieg13]

On that note vote: joth

This is the only interaction with ADK and scum D1.

[gkrieg13]

I'm inclined to believe this claim. But what was so horrible about the Joseph wagon?

I believe the part where he's promoter. But maybe not the part where he's town...

Why on earth would scum promoter claim right now?

ADK is also very quick to believe galz is town, something that I think a townie would take a little longer on.

[gkrieg13]

We should massclaim.

I'm serious. I was looking at the setup and we can get fantastic PoE.

What I'm thinking is:
-bodyguard claims (who cares, they're bodyguard, dying to protect a PR is the point of the role anyway)
-if psychologist has an innocent result from last night (guaranteed to be innocent at this point) that is NOT one of the claimed PRs, they claim with that result
-if psychologist claims, vengeful townie claims

Scum can't counter or fakeclaim this early because we just catch them. If we accept galz's claim (I do), we have six ICs out of 12 people. That leaves 3 scum in 6 people. If we can determine the towniness of just one person in that group, we win

This however is a very pro-town claiming plan I think. Psychologist was quickly losing their utility anyway.

[gkrieg13]

Works for me

vote: datswan

Would have been early bussing of datswan.

[gkrieg13]

Let's actually look at these two in iso. Not hitting every post here, just stuff that stands out to me

joth:

RVS votes for Glooble, claims jester at the start, jokey stuff

Non-committal on the promoter claiming issue

This post where he wants to make very clear that his jester post was a joke is pretty scummy

Townreads datswan, for confusion over the setup

Scumreads me for my setup plan, so he is actually taking a stand. I feel like he is misrepresenting my stance in this post, though

His last point in his response to mix is a lot of words to say nothing

This vote switch seems a little knee-jerk, which is townier

This little walkback seems like he's trying to keep his options open

But he is pretty strongly defending faust, which leans on the townier side. OTOH I don't think ari's case against faust at this point has much traction, so he's not sticking his neck out too far

joth feels sassier in this game, on a reread, than he has in other games I've played with recently. Is that an alignment tell for him? Probably not

Is scum[/url this flippant about voting for someone they claim to have a townread on? Maybe, if they know they'll be townread for it

[url=http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19659.msg798708#msg798708]Then goes to vote for mix, then justifies his vote saying that the wagon was stalling. Not the worst reason, but also doesn't have anything to do with mix

More sass. Regardless of your alignment joth, you are entertaining to read here

Joth[/ur] does have a pretty consistent narrative behind his votes. If he is scum this is well constructed

[url=http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19659.msg798962#msg798962]joth is at one vote, with interest in voting from Galz, when he makes this "if you want to lynch me while I sleep" comment. Not great

Note that joth initially claims that he wasn't intending to target mix before spending quite awhile calling mix his biggest scumread

Another post where joth seems to feel an inordinate amount of pressure for the attention he's actually received (his point C). More likely to come from scum, I think

The big fight with Galz, I don't really think any of this is an alignment tell

Back on mix. He tunneled mix a lot on day one, and I think that joth is savvy enough to know that tunneling comes off as towny. More and more his read on mix is looking to me less genuine and more constructed

The fact that this is posed as a question and not a statement stands out to me, again I find more and more of joth's posting to be overly concerned/aware about the opinion of town as a whole. Maybe that's a natural feeling for the gladiator but some of it does go back to day one

Puts a lot of effort (where more than I remembered before rereading) on keeping open the possibility of scum!galz. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion, but I still feel that there's no way in hell scum!galz claims like he did, and joth looks like he still wants galz to be a viable challenge for him

Actually allows his mind to be swayed, though. Or maybe realized that the cause was hopeless. Or maybe knew ahead of time that it would fall through, and that a big emotional struggle looks towny

So I think this is basically the first time that joth has seriously commented at all on faust's alignment. For someone who's posted quite a bit this game, Joth has talked about surprisingly few people

The intent to challenge DatSwan is a little out of left field

At the end of all that, joth comes off as only mildly scummy, but scummier than I remember. In my most recent game with scum!joth, he did seem to get more active the more pressure was on his team, and I don't know what's more pressure-inducing than being a gladiator

Let's see what I get from DatSwan

Seems confused about whether there is a promoter. But if promoter is town scum might be legitimately confused about whether there is one.

Later clarifies that promoter here refers to "town promoter"

First post (several of his posts in) where he expresses any reads. Had previously expressed that he had been busy but there are quite a few setup-talk posts before this. I don't know, is scum this sloppy?

Then casts suspicion on me and mix for bringing up the promoter stuff, then votes for me because mix has more votes. Not great

This post seems a little more engaged

Big post. Analysis seems genuine, a lot of his logic is based on where people are on wagons, which is something that I disagree with but is also in character for DatSwan

Given that it's extremely unlikely at this point that joth and swan are partners, I think that swan coming to joth's defense here is town points

But then points out that joth could still be scum. His logic here is pretty fuzzy

Excited energy in these last posts sparing with Joseph, mildly towny

More setup confusion. About stuff that's harder to be confused about as scum

Argues against claiming pre-challenge, on the idea that joth might be scum. I see his point but also having town challenge a PR would be bad

This spliting of people into pools, while unhelpful, is consistent with what I know of town!Swan. It's a long post with no real reads, though

Well, here's a read

At this point I think I actually find this kind of thing towny

So looking back on everything, joth comes off as scummier and datswan as townier than I remembered. I'm still somewhat on the fence but I think it's enough for me to

Unvote

But then they walk it back with this long post.

[gkrieg13]

MiX's continued attempts to will his way into IC status really bother me. Like, that is not a crazy thing for scum to be trying to do at this juncture. If we've all made it clear that PoE is the way we're gonna play this, scum wants to get eliminated from that list as definitively as possible.

What if MiX is scum and his whole lynchee thing is just a gambit to get him and his partner both on the quote-unquote IC list and the reason he's stalling with that info is because he wants to make sure he's really clear before he risks tying him and his partner together.

It's plausible. More likely something that I would be willing to consider at LyLo, though.

vote: chairs

Then they start the next day voting for their other partner?

[gkrieg13]

vote: MiX

I 100% agree with everything my twin is saying.

Here's the thing: pushing mix is exactly what scum!glooble needs to do right at this moment. There's a very small pool of people that are still viable lynches, and mix and galz are teetering at the edge of that pool.

Glooble's posts here are very consistent with the idea that he's putting everything he has into getting one of them lynched while he still can; then if he goes down tomorrow, his other partner (gkrieg or chairs) would hopefully make it through lylo.

I think this is just caught scum being desperate.

vote: glooble

But then switches over to glooble fairly quickly.

[gkrieg13]

I'm pretty sure if we lynch glooble, gkrieg, and chairs in any order, then we win. So let's do that.

And here they put their partner at the end of the line.

[gkrieg13]

vote : chairs

That's L-1

Puts chairs at L-1 here.

[gkrieg13]

So I don't know.

I'm town, but nothing ADK has done has been all that scummy. MiX bussed Datswan pretty hard when it seemed like the momentum could have switched to joth D2, and then challenged chairs.

I would love for both of them to actually make cases for why I'm scum, instead of just being the default lynch.

[gkrieg13]

Well basically I just have to convince you that it is ADK. MiX would have been extremely risky challenging his partner yesterday and heavily bussing Datswan.

If you think I cannot, under any circumnstances, be scum, then we win. Feel free to explain it as detailed as possible in case someone doesn't believe I'm the towniest non-IC alive.

See that is the problem though. I was hoping to reread ADK and have a good case on why they are scum, but there just isn't a very strong case. Whichever of you is scum has played a very good game here.

I also think it is interesting that after D1, this just turned into a 3 vanilla mafia vs. town with some investigative roles and the promoter.

[gkrieg13]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

Vote: ADK

Is this why we think ADK is the lynchee?

[gkrieg13]

Vote: ADK

And this one too. I guess it just means that MiX probably wasn't the lynchee.

[gkrieg13]

We can do the tried-and-not-tested joth lynch, if you want. Sad part is I think you're not good lynch material. Maybe you are?

Things like this are making you seem summer to me
Vote: mix

PPE: 3

Well, but then he jumps off the MiX wagon. It is possible that his lynchee just wasn't going to get lynched D1.

[gkrieg13]

Unvote
Not mix today after this claim

Ugh, but then he has this.

[MiX]

But then they walk it back with this long post.

This and

But then switches over to glooble fairly quickly.

Kinda convinces me. But naaaah it's gkrieg.

I'm town, but nothing ADK has done has been all that scummy. MiX bussed Datswan pretty hard when it seemed like the momentum could have switched to joth D2, and then challenged chairs.

I would love for both of them to actually make cases for why I'm scum, instead of just being the default lynch.

I think I win LyLo against anyone so I don't really care anymore. I like your effort, I suppose.

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

Vote: ADK

Is this why we think ADK is the lynchee?

Vote: ADK

And this one too. I guess it just means that MiX probably wasn't the lynchee.

Pretty much, yes. The way ADK became a major wagon and how Joseph was a major part of it is why I'm townreading him more than you.

PPE the other posts I think?

[gkrieg13]

ADK has had six different players vote for them.

Faust - for ADK name dropping the traitor a whole bunch
Joseph - sheep’s Faust (before Faust gave reasons)
MiX - (presumably voting for a different viable wagon)
Joth - unexplained
Swan - based on the amount of promoter talk ADK engaged I
Chairs - sheep’s Faust (after Faust gave reasons)
Faust return
Mix return
Joesph return

So most of these cases are promoter or traitor talk
Both of which weren't super helpful

I think it's scummier than anything ari has done, so Vote: ADK

I'm sleeping now, will be back in ~8 hours

PPE: 1

votes for ADK then moves vote to joth. I think it is possible that joth was the lynchee.

[gkrieg13]

But then they walk it back with this long post.

This and

But then switches over to glooble fairly quickly.

Kinda convinces me. But naaaah it's gkrieg.

I'm town, but nothing ADK has done has been all that scummy. MiX bussed Datswan pretty hard when it seemed like the momentum could have switched to joth D2, and then challenged chairs.

I would love for both of them to actually make cases for why I'm scum, instead of just being the default lynch.

I think I win LyLo against anyone so I don't really care anymore. I like your effort, I suppose.

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

Vote: ADK

Is this why we think ADK is the lynchee?

Vote: ADK

And this one too. I guess it just means that MiX probably wasn't the lynchee.

Pretty much, yes. The way ADK became a major wagon and how Joseph was a major part of it is why I'm townreading him more than you.

PPE the other posts I think?

If it really were me, I would have self-voted. I hate being mislynched for dumb reasons over anything else.

[Galzria]

I think I win LyLo against anyone so I don't really care anymore.

I will lynch you over ADK every time.

[MiX]

I think I win LyLo against anyone so I don't really care anymore.

I will lynch you over ADK every time.

Aww. What if gkrieg isn't trying his hardest to win?

[Galzria]

I think I win LyLo against anyone so I don't really care anymore.

I will lynch you over ADK every time.

Aww. What if gkrieg isn't trying his hardest to win?

Why would you think he isn’t? He has nothing to lose by trying as Town or as scum.

[MiX]

I think I win LyLo against anyone so I don't really care anymore.

I will lynch you over ADK every time.

Aww. What if gkrieg isn't trying his hardest to win?

Why would you think he isn’t? He has nothing to lose by trying as Town or as scum.

Yeah I kinda meant to say "as scum" in the end. I think he's scum that's trying to win instead of giving up.

[Galzria]

I think I win LyLo against anyone so I don't really care anymore.

I will lynch you over ADK every time.

Aww. What if gkrieg isn't trying his hardest to win?

Why would you think he isn’t? He has nothing to lose by trying as Town or as scum.

Yeah I kinda meant to say "as scum" in the end. I think he's scum that's trying to win instead of giving up.

I said I would lynch you over ADK, not over Gkrieg. I still plan on lynching him today.

[SpaceAnemone]

Request prod on Space.

Sorry.. I'm here! Work got busy, and I have no free weekends to use in compensation. I'm really sorry for my absences! :-(

[Galzria]

Request prod on Space.

Sorry.. I'm here! Work got busy, and I have no free weekends to use in compensation. I'm really sorry for my absences! :-(

Space, can you please do a fully targeted reread on MiX, and his potential to be scum with Chairs/Datswan.

How do you feel about him challenging Chairs in this pairing? Given the number of IC’s, the pressure to challenge Chairs over Gkrieg yesterday, and the overall feeling that scum were already backed into a corner, is it really that unreasonable of him to challenge his partner banking on the town!cred generated to buy him the following two mislynches he would need to win?

[Galzria]

Request prod on Space.

Sorry.. I'm here! Work got busy, and I have no free weekends to use in compensation. I'm really sorry for my absences! :-(

Space, can you please do a fully targeted reread on MiX, and his potential to be scum with Chairs/Datswan.

How do you feel about him challenging Chairs in this pairing? Given the number of IC’s, the pressure to challenge Chairs over Gkrieg yesterday, and the overall feeling that scum were already backed into a corner, is it really that unreasonable of him to challenge his partner banking on the town!cred generated to buy him the following two mislynches he would need to win?

Note, in fact, that yesterday I pointed out that had he challenged Gkrieg after it was made clear by active IC’s that he should challenge Chairs that it would’ve resulted in his immediate lynch - and if he flipped scum, Chairs’s immediate lynch today.

[SpaceAnemone]

MiX was voting for chairs and the end of D3, as well as challenging him D4. He also headed the Swan wagon on D2, and didn't flinch after the wagon started growing, right up to Swan getting lynched. So that seems an unlikely set of scum actions.

This is me just looking at the voting states for the moment.. I've updated my lists, though not in a way that will let me post them to the thread in a coloured-in format.. I might need some time tomorrow for that, and also for the full targeted re-read of MiX.

My feelings for the moment are that gkrieg is the top pick, followed by MiX, followed by ADK.

[EFHW]

Just vote gkrieg!

[Galzria]

Just vote gkrieg!

I would rather have Space’s analysis now, in case Gkrieg flips town and then Space dies at night.

[gkrieg13]

Just vote gkrieg!

I would rather have Space’s analysis now, in case Gkrieg flips town and then Space dies at night.

I am flipping town. Don't know why people are rushing this so much.

[EFHW]

Just vote gkrieg!

I would rather have Space’s analysis now, in case Gkrieg flips town and then Space dies at night.

I am flipping town. Don't know why people are rushing this so much.

What was the point of the long posts showing who was mentioned when by ADK and MiX? Did you draw any conclusions from that?

[EFHW]

vote: MiX

Is voting without explaining just what all the cool kids are doing now?

Vote: ADK

Is this why we think ADK is the lynchee?

It's the one where he says he had his own reasons for voting ADK. I quoted it awhile back and someone else quoted it a really long time ago, don't remember who.

[EFHW]

Probably Glooble.

[EFHW]

They killed the person most suspicious of MiX. Probably hoping to cast shadows over him.

That's my guess too

Doesn't seem worth it,  though.  Having joth around suspecting MiX would have been good for gkrieg.

[MiX]

How do you feel about him challenging Chairs in this pairing? Given the number of IC’s, the pressure to challenge Chairs over Gkrieg yesterday, and the overall feeling that scum were already backed into a corner, is it really that unreasonable of him to challenge his partner banking on the town!cred generated to buy him the following two mislynches he would need to win?

I could've easily challenged gkrieg. There was pretty much no pressure. I knew I would win the challenge against both of them, so why pick my partner? Oh, right, because I'm the best busser around, starting D2 with saying Swan is scum and then NEVER FLIPPING MY STANCE all the way to his lynch. Ew, unless I did? I hope not...

Again, best busser, right here. Pro play scum, distancing myself from Swan's D1 wagon (he kinda started the Joseph thing), bussing him as hard as I could D2, then hammering Glooble for fun, then challenging chairs...I think I already told you guys the "MiX!chairs" nonsense before, it was a pretty big post in D4, feel free to check it out. It obviously points out how good I am as scum.

Is anyone going to lynch ADK over gkrieg? Because that's actually better for my survival.

[gkrieg13]

Just vote gkrieg!

I would rather have Space’s analysis now, in case Gkrieg flips town and then Space dies at night.

I am flipping town. Don't know why people are rushing this so much.

What was the point of the long posts showing who was mentioned when by ADK and MiX? Did you draw any conclusions from that?

I was trying to highlight the partner interactions of ADK and MiX with their scum partners. I guess I was trying to show that either (if ADK is scum) you shouldn't give IC status based off the idea that ADK is the lynchee, or that MiX bussed his partners really hard.

One of the two must be true, so I was trying to figure out if ADK really was the lynchee, and if they weren't, what did their interactions with their partners look like, or to see if Datswan and chairs interacted with either ADK or MiX.

I'm town that is going to be lynched before anyone looks into ADK and MiX, so I was trying to make it easier to read them and their interactions with the two flipped scum.

[gkrieg13]

How do you feel about him challenging Chairs in this pairing? Given the number of IC’s, the pressure to challenge Chairs over Gkrieg yesterday, and the overall feeling that scum were already backed into a corner, is it really that unreasonable of him to challenge his partner banking on the town!cred generated to buy him the following two mislynches he would need to win?

I could've easily challenged gkrieg. There was pretty much no pressure. I knew I would win the challenge against both of them, so why pick my partner? Oh, right, because I'm the best busser around, starting D2 with saying Swan is scum and then NEVER FLIPPING MY STANCE all the way to his lynch. Ew, unless I did? I hope not...

Again, best busser, right here. Pro play scum, distancing myself from Swan's D1 wagon (he kinda started the Joseph thing), bussing him as hard as I could D2, then hammering Glooble for fun, then challenging chairs...I think I already told you guys the "MiX!chairs" nonsense before, it was a pretty big post in D4, feel free to check it out. It obviously points out how good I am as scum.

Is anyone going to lynch ADK over gkrieg? Because that's actually better for my survival.

I mean bussing is a valid strategy, otherwise no one would do it...

[EFHW]

Just vote gkrieg!

I would rather have Space’s analysis now, in case Gkrieg flips town and then Space dies at night.

I am flipping town. Don't know why people are rushing this so much.

What was the point of the long posts showing who was mentioned when by ADK and MiX? Did you draw any conclusions from that?

I was trying to highlight the partner interactions of ADK and MiX with their scum partners. I guess I was trying to show that either (if ADK is scum) you shouldn't give IC status based off the idea that ADK is the lynchee, or that MiX bussed his partners really hard.

One of the two must be true, so I was trying to figure out if ADK really was the lynchee, and if they weren't, what did their interactions with their partners look like, or to see if Datswan and chairs interacted with either ADK or MiX.

I'm town that is going to be lynched before anyone looks into ADK and MiX, so I was trying to make it easier to read them and their interactions with the two flipped scum.

It's scummy to say "MiX voted his partner", when it's nowhere near conclusive that MiX is even scum.

[gkrieg13]

Just vote gkrieg!

I would rather have Space’s analysis now, in case Gkrieg flips town and then Space dies at night.

I am flipping town. Don't know why people are rushing this so much.

What was the point of the long posts showing who was mentioned when by ADK and MiX? Did you draw any conclusions from that?

I was trying to highlight the partner interactions of ADK and MiX with their scum partners. I guess I was trying to show that either (if ADK is scum) you shouldn't give IC status based off the idea that ADK is the lynchee, or that MiX bussed his partners really hard.

One of the two must be true, so I was trying to figure out if ADK really was the lynchee, and if they weren't, what did their interactions with their partners look like, or to see if Datswan and chairs interacted with either ADK or MiX.

I'm town that is going to be lynched before anyone looks into ADK and MiX, so I was trying to make it easier to read them and their interactions with the two flipped scum.

It's scummy to say "MiX voted his partner", when it's nowhere near conclusive that MiX is even scum.

Note that I am approaching this as a hypothetical. Did you read the whole post? I also never actually said what you put in quotes, which is misleading.

The point was that when y'all lynch me today, you will have to think through the situation I just posed:

1. MiX is scum: requires that he bussed his partners very hard

2. ADK is scum: someone else was the lynchee

I'm trying to give you information (because no one seems to be rereading) so that minimal rereading is required to make that decision.

[Galzria]

Just vote gkrieg!

I would rather have Space’s analysis now, in case Gkrieg flips town and then Space dies at night.

I am flipping town. Don't know why people are rushing this so much.

What was the point of the long posts showing who was mentioned when by ADK and MiX? Did you draw any conclusions from that?

I was trying to highlight the partner interactions of ADK and MiX with their scum partners. I guess I was trying to show that either (if ADK is scum) you shouldn't give IC status based off the idea that ADK is the lynchee, or that MiX bussed his partners really hard.

One of the two must be true, so I was trying to figure out if ADK really was the lynchee, and if they weren't, what did their interactions with their partners look like, or to see if Datswan and chairs interacted with either ADK or MiX.

I'm town that is going to be lynched before anyone looks into ADK and MiX, so I was trying to make it easier to read them and their interactions with the two flipped scum.

It's scummy to say "MiX voted his partner", when it's nowhere near conclusive that MiX is even scum.

Note that I am approaching this as a hypothetical. Did you read the whole post? I also never actually said what you put in quotes, which is misleading.

The point was that when y'all lynch me today, you will have to think through the situation I just posed:

1. MiX is scum: requires that he bussed his partners very hard

2. ADK is scum: someone else was the lynchee

I'm trying to give you information (because no one seems to be rereading) so that minimal rereading is required to make that decision.

Don’t feel too attacked here. I completely agree. There’s no new information forthcoming this game so I’m basically treating you as an IC that we’ll be lynching today. If you’re scum, we win. If you’re town, your input is equally as valid as any remaining IC tomorrow. You’re working with identical information as everyone else - so by all means go for it.

[EFHW]

@gkrieg - I know it was hypothetical, but that was left out of most of your posts. And they were very long. It would be so much more helpful if you organized the information you want us to consider. I know you didn't make that specific statement. That was intended to stand in for all the variations in which you referred to someone as someone else's partner without any justification or caveat.

What is your response to Joseph's statement that he had his own reasons for voting ADK?

PPE: Galzria -- An IC we'll be lynching? Are you talking to gkrieg?

[Galzria]

@gkrieg - I know it was hypothetical, but that was left out of most of your posts. And they were very long. It would be so much more helpful if you organized the information you want us to consider. I know you didn't make that specific statement. That was intended to stand in for all the variations in which you referred to someone as someone else's partner without any justification or caveat.

What is your response to Joseph's statement that he had his own reasons for voting ADK?

PPE: Galzria -- An IC we'll be lynching? Are you talking to gkrieg?

Yes. Either he’s scum and we win, or he’s not and scum is between ADK/MiX. Gkrieg is currently operating with 100% of the information we’ll have after his lynch. Assuming he’s town, he’s at least trying to figure out who the last scum is.

[gkrieg13]

@gkrieg - I know it was hypothetical, but that was left out of most of your posts. And they were very long. It would be so much more helpful if you organized the information you want us to consider. I know you didn't make that specific statement. That was intended to stand in for all the variations in which you referred to someone as someone else's partner without any justification or caveat.

What is your response to Joseph's statement that he had his own reasons for voting ADK?

PPE: Galzria -- An IC we'll be lynching? Are you talking to gkrieg?

My problem with the ADK being the lynchee thing is that Joseph would say he had his own reasons for voting anyone. I don't think Joseph would breadcrumb his lynchee like that, seeing as he specifically would want to hide who his lynchee is. Making ADK an IC based off one post is just way too strong. Instead, I think that people should discount that (or maybe make it count for like 1% of their read) and instead look at ADK and how they interacted with their partners.

I know that one of ADK or MiX is scum, so I was just writing the posts from my point of view.

I think ADK and MiX have played a very good game. if MiX is scum, he bussed his partners very hard, pointed out their scum slips based on claims and had lots of good "townslips" themselves about the setup. He talks about traitors and scum promoters like he isn't sure if there is one in the game or not, which is not what I would expect from relatively new scum (I can't remember if they have been scum before).

If ADK is scum, they had very little interaction with their partners. They also bussed both of their partners, but otherwise played a very under-the-radar game. Actually now that I'm typing this up, if you take away the lynchee thing about ADK, it is pretty clear that they are the scum over MiX when you just look at what they have done. MiX seems scummier because of the N4 nightkill, and many of his statements sound scummy (I think that is just how he writes), but MiX's actions are much further away from what a partner would do, especially as newbie scum I believe.

[Galzria]

Gkrieg - Do you believe that you would’ve lost to MiX had he challenged you yesterday?

[gkrieg13]

Gkrieg - Do you believe that you would’ve lost to MiX had he challenged you yesterday?

Hard question. I tend to overestimate my towniness, so yes I do believe I would have won the challenge. But I also am in this situation today, so I'm not sure.

I haven't had any case put on me other than PoE and general lurkiness, so that also makes me believe I could have won yesterday.

[MiX]

Gkrieg - Do you believe that you would’ve lost to MiX had he challenged you yesterday?

Hard question. I tend to overestimate my towniness, so yes I do believe I would have won the challenge. But I also am in this situation today, so I'm not sure.

I haven't had any case put on me other than PoE and general lurkiness, so that also makes me believe I could have won yesterday.

Why do you think I was scummier than you?

[gkrieg13]

Gkrieg - Do you believe that you would’ve lost to MiX had he challenged you yesterday?

Hard question. I tend to overestimate my towniness, so yes I do believe I would have won the challenge. But I also am in this situation today, so I'm not sure.

I haven't had any case put on me other than PoE and general lurkiness, so that also makes me believe I could have won yesterday.

Why do you think I was scummier than you?

? Because I'm town? Why do you think I'm scummier than you? Or even better, why do you think I'm scummy at all?

[SpaceAnemone]

Just vote gkrieg!

I would rather have Space’s analysis now, in case Gkrieg flips town and then Space dies at night.

I've re-read almost the first half of MiX's posts.. there are just too many, and I'm just too tired to continue any more.

However, my conclusion is still that he's not likely to be scum. Any further hedging I could do on that seems to be motivated by the desire to save face just on the off-chance he's scum playing really well, because it would just feel embarrassing if he flips that way. I do think he's really likely to be town, though!

[SpaceAnemone]

As for ADK, I wasn't super-convinced of the ADK-as-lynchee theory when I initially got my vote counter up and running, because Joseph's votes were all over the place. I guess the post at #506, where he says he had his own reasons for voting ADK, could be read as a breadcrumb (why crumb that role at all?), but mostly just seem to be a knee-jerk defense in response being accused of sheeping faust.

[SpaceAnemone]

I should do a re-read of gkrieg.

...

That didn't take nearly as long as I'd feared :-) I'm happy to vote here for today. His early reads lists conveniently put chairs in the townie bucket, and didn't directly mention Swan. Then later on there were one too many mentions of how he didn't know exactly what was going on in the game/who'd died, which sounds like someone trying to make us all think they didn't have access to the scum QT and its secrets.

[SpaceAnemone]

I won't vote immediately, just in case anyone else has things they want to say. Shall I post up a coloured-in vote count if I get the chance tomorrow night?

Sleep time now for me!

[Galzria]

Nah, with you having chimed in, I’m good with the hammer. vote: Gkrieg

[gkrieg13]

Sad, well I hope you all choose right tomorrow.

[EFHW]

(why crumb that role at all?), but mostly just seem to be a knee-jerk defense in response being accused of sheeping faust.

Breadcrumbing is a good idea with this role because he knows for sure someone is town. In case he is killed, that person can be IC. I don't know if Joseph would do that. It seems just as likely that he would have tried to get the townie lynched to get the individual win.

[gkrieg13]

(why crumb that role at all?), but mostly just seem to be a knee-jerk defense in response being accused of sheeping faust.

Breadcrumbing is a good idea with this role because he knows for sure someone is town. In case he is killed, that person can be IC. I don't know if Joseph would do that. It seems just as likely that he would have tried to get the townie lynched to get the individual win.

He only wins if the lynchee is lynched, he can’t win with town.

[Galzria]

(why crumb that role at all?), but mostly just seem to be a knee-jerk defense in response being accused of sheeping faust.

Breadcrumbing is a good idea with this role because he knows for sure someone is town. In case he is killed, that person can be IC. I don't know if Joseph would do that. It seems just as likely that he would have tried to get the townie lynched to get the individual win.

He only wins if the lynchee is lynched, he can’t win with town.

This. His only win condition was to lynch the lynchee.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote Count 5.final

Uncleeurope was lost. He no longer knew what was important. Surely LaLight was being deceptive, surely it was a ploy forged with the sole purpose of dissipating all manner of fire from his bones.

Uncleeurope's passion and zeal fell like corpses beside his dreams of power and his imagined knowledge. What did it mean to live without knowledge, power, clarity, or passion? Every single image or symbol he had help up to the rank of deity had been smashed in an instant in one look of sadness in LaLight's eyes. And... was that... pity?

What meaning could be gleaned from this pit of blackness LaLight had thrust him into? Uncleeurope suddenly was hit with another thought poking its face out of his mind: "What if I am truly as unprepared as everyone thinks I am?"

This lone sound escaped Uncleeurope's lips as he sat in front of his computer, and it was coughed up as a whisper. As if the process of muffling it could make it less true.

Even now as he sat, his people expected him to end the day, and Uncleeurope didn't feel prepared. It was amazing how such a simple task could be seen as daunting when it hadn't yet been accomplished.

But maybe this is what modding had always been about? After all, Uncleeurope knew something that his people didn't, and they wanted to know. Uncleeurope had the ability, no, responsibility, to share it with the people in need.

Because Uncleeurope knew that gkrieg13 was a Vanilla Townie, and now everyone did.

Maybe purpose could be found in this darkness.

Maybe Light was in here after all.



gkrieg13 (4): MiX, EFHW, A Drowned Kernel, Galzria

Not voting (2): gkrieg13, SpaceAnemone


With 6 alive, it took 4 to lynch.

Night 5 begins now and ends in LATER.

THREAD LOCKED

[Uncleeurope]

With the prerequisite of "later" technically achieved, Uncleeurope set forth to begin again another day filled with death and destruction. At this rate this might never end.

This was a segment more fit for LaLight's input, given the flavor, but Uncleeurope was used to disappointment, and begrudgingly pressed on.

A lot had happened in his absence, Galzria the Town Compulsive Odd-Night Promoter had been murdered by someone or another (Uncleeurope barely cared), and A Drowned Kernel had been rumored to be in a fight today.

It was getting the opposite of crowded up in here.

Day Six has started!

Not voting (4): MiX, A Drowned Kernel, SpaceAnemone, EFHW


With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Day 6 ends LATER

Thread Unlocked.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Well damn.

challenge: mix

vote: mix

[MiX]

Well damn.

challenge: mix

vote: mix

Vote: ADK, damn you're scum again? How is that fair? And I was so happy when I "found out" you were the Lynchee...no fair!

For decisive proof of ADK's scummyness, look at one of my posts D5 that isolated 2 of gkrieg's posts which contained 2 ADK posts which, if I recall correctly, were hedgy and defended Swan a bit too much. Wow, that's pretty nested.

I'll post it in a bit.

[MiX]

But then they walk it back with this long post.

This and

But then switches over to glooble fairly quickly.

Kinda convinces me. But naaaah it's gkrieg.

Is the post. Check those 2 posts, I think they show ADK running away from his partners, something I never did.

[EFHW]

At a loss. Space, the voting records would be helpful after all. Color is easy for me to add, so don't worry about that.

[MiX]

Man I wish I had done any VCAs this game, but being in the lynch pool meant I knew who could be scum anyway. Meh. I really hope town wins this game, it would be really sad to lose from such a good position as the start of D3.

We'll have to wait for Space's VCA, and knowing their availability it might several IRL days.

EFHW, what's your hunch?

[SpaceAnemone]

Here's the complete-but-uncoloured voting history, in a code cut. My vote-counting script may not always make the same calls as a mod in terms of what does and doesn't count, and it's still capable of missing a few votes if they're laid out funny. I also didn't do anything special to cope with the gladiator mechanic.

Code: [Select]

VOTING FOR DAY 1

#12
arishipshape (1): MiX
Not Voting (13): arishipshape, DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, mcmcsalot, Glooble, Galzria, faust, Joseph2302, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#13
arishipshape (1): MiX
MiX (1): faust
Not Voting (12): arishipshape, DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, mcmcsalot, Glooble, Galzria, Joseph2302, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#20
arishipshape (1): MiX
MiX (1): faust
SpaceAnemone (1): Joseph2302
Not Voting (11): arishipshape, DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, mcmcsalot, Glooble, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#22
arishipshape (1): MiX
MiX (2): faust, arishipshape
SpaceAnemone (1): Joseph2302
Not Voting (10): DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, mcmcsalot, Glooble, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#24
arishipshape (1): MiX
MiX (1): faust
SpaceAnemone (1): Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (1): arishipshape
Not Voting (10): DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, mcmcsalot, Glooble, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#25
arishipshape (2): MiX, Glooble
MiX (1): faust
SpaceAnemone (1): Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (1): arishipshape
Not Voting (9): DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, mcmcsalot, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#27
arishipshape (2): MiX, Glooble
MiX (1): faust
SpaceAnemone (1): Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (2): arishipshape, gkrieg13
Not Voting (8): DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, mcmcsalot, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#28
MiX (1): faust
SpaceAnemone (1): Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (2): arishipshape, gkrieg13
arishipshape (1): Glooble
gkrieg13 (1): MiX
Not Voting (8): DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, mcmcsalot, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#30
MiX (1): faust
SpaceAnemone (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): Glooble
Joseph2302 (1): gkrieg13
gkrieg13 (2): MiX, arishipshape
Not Voting (8): DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, mcmcsalot, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#36
SpaceAnemone (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): Glooble
Joseph2302 (1): gkrieg13
gkrieg13 (2): MiX, arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Not Voting (8): DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, mcmcsalot, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#41
SpaceAnemone (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): Glooble
Joseph2302 (2): gkrieg13, SpaceAnemone
gkrieg13 (2): MiX, arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Not Voting (7): DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, mcmcsalot, Galzria, EFHW

#46
SpaceAnemone (2): Joseph2302, gkrieg13
arishipshape (1): Glooble
gkrieg13 (2): MiX, arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
Not Voting (7): DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, mcmcsalot, Galzria, EFHW

#52
SpaceAnemone (2): Joseph2302, gkrieg13
arishipshape (1): Glooble
gkrieg13 (2): MiX, arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
Glooble (1): jotheonah
Not Voting (6): DatSwan, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel, mcmcsalot, Galzria, EFHW

#77
SpaceAnemone (2): Joseph2302, gkrieg13
arishipshape (1): Glooble
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
Glooble (1): jotheonah
DatSwan (1): MiX
Not Voting (6): DatSwan, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel, mcmcsalot, Galzria, EFHW

#101
SpaceAnemone (2): Joseph2302, gkrieg13
arishipshape (1): Glooble
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
Glooble (1): jotheonah
DatSwan (1): MiX
MiX (1): mcmcsalot
Not Voting (5): DatSwan, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel, Galzria, EFHW

#106
arishipshape (1): Glooble
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (2): faust, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): gkrieg13
Glooble (1): jotheonah
DatSwan (1): MiX
MiX (1): mcmcsalot
Not Voting (5): DatSwan, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel, Galzria, EFHW

#108
arishipshape (1): Glooble
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (3): faust, Joseph2302, MiX
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): gkrieg13
Glooble (1): jotheonah
MiX (1): mcmcsalot
Not Voting (5): DatSwan, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel, Galzria, EFHW

#112
arishipshape (1): Glooble
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (3): faust, Joseph2302, MiX
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): gkrieg13
Glooble (1): jotheonah
MiX (2): mcmcsalot, Galzria
Not Voting (4): DatSwan, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW

#132
arishipshape (1): Glooble
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (2): faust, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): gkrieg13
Glooble (1): jotheonah
MiX (2): mcmcsalot, Galzria
jotheonah (1): MiX
Not Voting (4): DatSwan, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW

#135
arishipshape (1): Glooble
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (2): faust, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): gkrieg13
Glooble (1): jotheonah
MiX (2): mcmcsalot, Galzria
jotheonah (2): MiX, A Drowned Kernel
Not Voting (3): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW

#140
arishipshape (1): Glooble
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (2): faust, Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): gkrieg13
MiX (2): mcmcsalot, Galzria
jotheonah (2): MiX, A Drowned Kernel
Not Voting (4): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW, jotheonah

#141
arishipshape (1): Glooble
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (3): faust, Joseph2302, jotheonah
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): gkrieg13
MiX (2): mcmcsalot, Galzria
jotheonah (2): MiX, A Drowned Kernel
Not Voting (3): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW

#162
arishipshape (1): Glooble
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (3): faust, Joseph2302, jotheonah
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (3): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13
jotheonah (2): MiX, A Drowned Kernel
Not Voting (3): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW

#163
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (3): faust, Joseph2302, jotheonah
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (3): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13
jotheonah (2): MiX, A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Glooble
Not Voting (3): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW

#164
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (3): faust, Joseph2302, jotheonah
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (3): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13
jotheonah (1): A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (2): Glooble, MiX
Not Voting (3): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW

#165
gkrieg13 (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (2): faust, jotheonah
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (3): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13
jotheonah (1): A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (3): Glooble, MiX, Joseph2302
Not Voting (3): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW

#170
A Drowned Kernel (2): faust, jotheonah
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (3): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13
jotheonah (1): A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (3): Glooble, MiX, Joseph2302
Not Voting (4): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW, arishipshape

#171
A Drowned Kernel (2): faust, jotheonah
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (4): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble
jotheonah (1): A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (2): MiX, Joseph2302
Not Voting (4): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW, arishipshape

#196
A Drowned Kernel (2): faust, jotheonah
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (4): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble
jotheonah (1): A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
Not Voting (5): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW, arishipshape, MiX

#200
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (4): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble
jotheonah (1): A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
Not Voting (5): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW, arishipshape, MiX

#201
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (4): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble
jotheonah (2): A Drowned Kernel, MiX
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
Not Voting (4): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW, arishipshape

#247
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (4): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble
jotheonah (2): A Drowned Kernel, MiX
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
faust (1): arishipshape
Not Voting (3): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW

#264
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (4): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble
jotheonah (1): A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (2): jotheonah, MiX
faust (1): arishipshape
Not Voting (3): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW

#267
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (4): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble
jotheonah (1): A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (2): jotheonah, MiX
Not Voting (4): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW, arishipshape

#271
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (4): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble
jotheonah (2): A Drowned Kernel, arishipshape
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (2): jotheonah, MiX
Not Voting (3): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW

#274
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (4): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble
jotheonah (1): A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (2): jotheonah, MiX
Not Voting (4): DatSwan, Chairs, EFHW, arishipshape

#278
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (5): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs
jotheonah (1): A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (2): jotheonah, MiX
Not Voting (3): DatSwan, EFHW, arishipshape

#279
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (5): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs
jotheonah (1): A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
gkrieg13 (1): MiX
Not Voting (3): DatSwan, EFHW, arishipshape

#286
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (6): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
gkrieg13 (1): MiX
Not Voting (3): DatSwan, EFHW, arishipshape

#297
A Drowned Kernel (1): faust
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (6): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (2): jotheonah, EFHW
gkrieg13 (1): MiX
Not Voting (2): DatSwan, arishipshape

#298
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (6): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (3): jotheonah, EFHW, faust
gkrieg13 (1): MiX
Not Voting (2): DatSwan, arishipshape

#300
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (6): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (2): jotheonah, EFHW
gkrieg13 (1): MiX
Not Voting (2): DatSwan, arishipshape

#301
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (6): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (2): jotheonah, EFHW
faust (1): MiX
Not Voting (2): DatSwan, arishipshape

#322
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (6): mcmcsalot, Galzria, gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
faust (1): MiX
Galzria (1): EFHW
Not Voting (2): DatSwan, arishipshape

#334
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (5): mcmcsalot, gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
faust (1): MiX
Galzria (1): EFHW
Not Voting (3): DatSwan, arishipshape, Galzria

#335
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (5): mcmcsalot, gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
faust (1): MiX
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (1): DatSwan
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#347
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (5): mcmcsalot, gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (1): DatSwan
gkrieg13 (1): MiX
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#357
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (1): DatSwan
gkrieg13 (1): MiX
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#360
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel
Chairs (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
Galzria (2): EFHW, MiX
A Drowned Kernel (1): DatSwan
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#364
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
Galzria (3): EFHW, MiX, Joseph2302
A Drowned Kernel (1): DatSwan
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#369
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (3): gkrieg13, Glooble, A Drowned Kernel
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
Galzria (3): EFHW, MiX, Joseph2302
A Drowned Kernel (2): DatSwan, Chairs
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#375
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (3): gkrieg13, Glooble, A Drowned Kernel
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
Galzria (2): EFHW, Joseph2302
A Drowned Kernel (2): DatSwan, Chairs
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): MiX
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#376
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah
Galzria (2): EFHW, Joseph2302
A Drowned Kernel (2): DatSwan, Chairs
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): MiX
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#377
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah
Galzria (2): EFHW, Joseph2302
A Drowned Kernel (2): DatSwan, Chairs
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): MiX
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#410
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah
Galzria (2): EFHW, Joseph2302
A Drowned Kernel (2): DatSwan, Chairs
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (1): MiX
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#420
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (2): DatSwan, Chairs
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (2): MiX, Joseph2302
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#433
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (1): DatSwan
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (2): MiX, Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): Chairs
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#434
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (2): DatSwan, faust
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (2): MiX, Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): Chairs
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#435
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (3): DatSwan, faust, MiX
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (1): Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): Chairs
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#438
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (4): DatSwan, faust, MiX, Joseph2302
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
arishipshape (1): Chairs
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#440
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (3): DatSwan, MiX, Joseph2302
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
arishipshape (1): Chairs
Not Voting (2): arishipshape, Galzria

#450
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (3): gkrieg13, Glooble, jotheonah
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (3): DatSwan, MiX, Joseph2302
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
arishipshape (1): Chairs
Not Voting (3): arishipshape, Galzria, A Drowned Kernel

#451
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (2): gkrieg13, Glooble
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (3): DatSwan, MiX, Joseph2302
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
arishipshape (2): Chairs, jotheonah
Not Voting (3): arishipshape, Galzria, A Drowned Kernel

#472
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (2): gkrieg13, Glooble
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (3): DatSwan, MiX, Joseph2302
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
arishipshape (2): Chairs, jotheonah
Chairs (1): arishipshape
Not Voting (2): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel

#478
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (2): gkrieg13, Glooble
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (3): DatSwan, MiX, Joseph2302
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
arishipshape (2): Chairs, jotheonah
EFHW (1): arishipshape
Not Voting (2): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel

#484
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (3): gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (3): DatSwan, MiX, Joseph2302
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
EFHW (1): arishipshape
Not Voting (2): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel

#485
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (4): gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, Joseph2302
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (2): DatSwan, MiX
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
arishipshape (1): jotheonah
EFHW (1): arishipshape
Not Voting (2): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel

#487
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (5): gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, Joseph2302, jotheonah
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (2): DatSwan, MiX
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): arishipshape
Not Voting (2): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel

#488
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (5): gkrieg13, Glooble, Chairs, Joseph2302, jotheonah
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (1): DatSwan
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): arishipshape
jotheonah (1): MiX
Not Voting (2): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel

#494
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (4): Glooble, Chairs, Joseph2302, jotheonah
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (1): DatSwan
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): arishipshape
jotheonah (1): MiX
arishipshape (1): gkrieg13
Not Voting (2): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel

#495
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (5): Glooble, Chairs, Joseph2302, jotheonah, gkrieg13
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (1): DatSwan
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): arishipshape
jotheonah (1): MiX
Not Voting (2): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel

#511
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (5): Glooble, Chairs, Joseph2302, jotheonah, gkrieg13
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (1): DatSwan
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): arishipshape
jotheonah (1): MiX
arishipshape (1): Galzria
Not Voting (1): A Drowned Kernel

#513
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (5): Glooble, Chairs, Joseph2302, jotheonah, gkrieg13
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (1): DatSwan
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (2): arishipshape, MiX
arishipshape (1): Galzria
Not Voting (1): A Drowned Kernel

#519
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (5): Glooble, Chairs, Joseph2302, jotheonah, gkrieg13
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (1): DatSwan
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): arishipshape
arishipshape (1): Galzria
Not Voting (2): A Drowned Kernel, MiX

#524
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (4): Glooble, Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (1): DatSwan
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): arishipshape
arishipshape (1): Galzria
Not Voting (3): A Drowned Kernel, MiX, Joseph2302

#529
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (4): Glooble, Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (2): DatSwan, Joseph2302
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): arishipshape
arishipshape (1): Galzria
Not Voting (2): A Drowned Kernel, MiX

#530
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, faust
MiX (4): Glooble, Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (3): DatSwan, Joseph2302, MiX
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): arishipshape
arishipshape (1): Galzria
Not Voting (1): A Drowned Kernel

#535
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (5): Glooble, Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (3): DatSwan, Joseph2302, MiX
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): arishipshape
arishipshape (1): Galzria
Not Voting (1): A Drowned Kernel

#538
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (5): Glooble, Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (4): DatSwan, Joseph2302, MiX, Galzria
SpaceAnemone (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): arishipshape
Not Voting (1): A Drowned Kernel

#540
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (5): Glooble, Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (5): DatSwan, Joseph2302, MiX, Galzria, mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): arishipshape
Not Voting (1): A Drowned Kernel

#542
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan
MiX (5): Glooble, Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
Galzria (1): EFHW
EFHW (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (4): Joseph2302, MiX, Galzria, mcmcsalot
Not Voting (1): A Drowned Kernel

#545
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan
MiX (5): Glooble, Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
Galzria (2): EFHW, A Drowned Kernel
EFHW (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (4): Joseph2302, MiX, Galzria, mcmcsalot

#551
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan
MiX (4): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
Galzria (2): EFHW, A Drowned Kernel
EFHW (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (4): Joseph2302, MiX, Galzria, mcmcsalot
jotheonah (1): Chairs

#554
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan
MiX (4): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
EFHW (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (5): Joseph2302, MiX, Galzria, mcmcsalot, EFHW
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (1): Chairs

#560
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan
MiX (4): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
EFHW (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (4): Joseph2302, MiX, Galzria, mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (1): Chairs
Not Voting (1): EFHW

#564
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan
MiX (4): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
EFHW (1): arishipshape
A Drowned Kernel (4): Joseph2302, MiX, Galzria, mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (1): Chairs
arishipshape (1): EFHW

#572
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan
MiX (4): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
A Drowned Kernel (4): Joseph2302, MiX, Galzria, mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (1): Chairs
arishipshape (1): EFHW
Not Voting (1): arishipshape

#574
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan
MiX (4): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
A Drowned Kernel (3): Joseph2302, MiX, mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (2): Chairs, Galzria
arishipshape (1): EFHW
Not Voting (1): arishipshape

#579
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan
MiX (4): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
A Drowned Kernel (3): Joseph2302, MiX, mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (3): Chairs, Galzria, arishipshape
arishipshape (1): EFHW

#590
Joseph2302 (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan
MiX (4): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
A Drowned Kernel (2): MiX, mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (4): Chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph2302
arishipshape (1): EFHW

#593
Joseph2302 (3): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW
MiX (4): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
A Drowned Kernel (2): MiX, mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (4): Chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph2302

#596
Joseph2302 (4): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, faust
MiX (3): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (2): MiX, mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (4): Chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph2302

#602
Joseph2302 (5): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, faust, jotheonah
MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (2): MiX, mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (4): Chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph2302

#622
Joseph2302 (5): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, faust, jotheonah
MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (5): Chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph2302, MiX

#637
Joseph2302 (6): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, EFHW, faust, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel
MiX (2): Glooble, gkrieg13
A Drowned Kernel (1): mcmcsalot
jotheonah (5): Chairs, Galzria, arishipshape, Joseph2302, MiX



VOTING FOR DAY 2

#705
MiX (1): Glooble
Not Voting (11): arishipshape, DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, MiX, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, faust, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#708
MiX (1): Glooble
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
Not Voting (10): arishipshape, DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, MiX, gkrieg13, Galzria, faust, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#715
MiX (1): Glooble
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
Glooble (1): faust
Not Voting (9): arishipshape, DatSwan, Chairs, jotheonah, MiX, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#720
MiX (2): Glooble, Chairs
Galzria (1): A Drowned Kernel
Glooble (1): faust
Not Voting (8): arishipshape, DatSwan, jotheonah, MiX, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#741
MiX (2): Glooble, Chairs
Galzria (2): A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah
Glooble (1): faust
Not Voting (7): arishipshape, DatSwan, MiX, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#752
MiX (2): Glooble, Chairs
Galzria (2): A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah
Glooble (1): faust
faust (1): MiX
Not Voting (6): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#753
MiX (2): Glooble, Chairs
Galzria (3): A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah, MiX
Glooble (1): faust
Not Voting (6): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#773
Galzria (4): A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah, MiX, Glooble
Glooble (1): faust
MiX (1): Chairs
Not Voting (6): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#801
Glooble (1): faust
MiX (1): Chairs
Galzria (3): jotheonah, MiX, Glooble
Not Voting (7): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, A Drowned Kernel

#820
Glooble (1): faust
MiX (1): Chairs
Galzria (2): jotheonah, MiX
Not Voting (8): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, A Drowned Kernel, Glooble

#821
Glooble (1): faust
MiX (1): Chairs
Galzria (1): MiX
Not Voting (9): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, A Drowned Kernel, Glooble, jotheonah

#822
Glooble (1): faust
MiX (1): Chairs
DatSwan (1): MiX
Not Voting (9): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, A Drowned Kernel, Glooble, jotheonah

#831
Glooble (1): faust
DatSwan (1): MiX
Not Voting (10): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, A Drowned Kernel, Glooble, jotheonah, Chairs

#864
Glooble (1): faust
DatSwan (1): MiX
gkrieg13 (1): Glooble
Not Voting (9): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah, Chairs

#896
Glooble (1): faust
DatSwan (1): MiX
gkrieg13 (1): Glooble
Not Voting (9): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah, Chairs

#901
Glooble (1): faust
gkrieg13 (2): Glooble, MiX
Not Voting (9): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah, Chairs

#925
Glooble (1): faust
gkrieg13 (1): Glooble
DatSwan (1): MiX
Not Voting (9): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, A Drowned Kernel, jotheonah, Chairs

#926
Glooble (1): faust
gkrieg13 (1): Glooble
DatSwan (2): MiX, jotheonah
Not Voting (8): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, A Drowned Kernel, Chairs

#927
Glooble (1): faust
gkrieg13 (1): Glooble
DatSwan (3): MiX, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel
Not Voting (7): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, Chairs

#930
gkrieg13 (1): Glooble
DatSwan (3): MiX, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel
jotheonah (1): faust
Not Voting (7): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, Chairs

#935
gkrieg13 (1): Glooble
DatSwan (4): MiX, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW
jotheonah (1): faust
Not Voting (6): arishipshape, DatSwan, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, Chairs

#936
gkrieg13 (1): Glooble
DatSwan (4): MiX, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW
jotheonah (2): faust, DatSwan
Not Voting (5): arishipshape, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, Chairs

#941
DatSwan (5): MiX, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW, Glooble
jotheonah (2): faust, DatSwan
Not Voting (5): arishipshape, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, Chairs

#951
DatSwan (4): MiX, jotheonah, EFHW, Glooble
jotheonah (2): faust, DatSwan
Not Voting (6): arishipshape, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, Chairs, A Drowned Kernel

#953
DatSwan (5): MiX, jotheonah, EFHW, Glooble, Chairs
jotheonah (2): faust, DatSwan
Not Voting (5): arishipshape, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, A Drowned Kernel

#1008
DatSwan (6): MiX, jotheonah, EFHW, Glooble, Chairs, faust
jotheonah (1): DatSwan
Not Voting (5): arishipshape, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, A Drowned Kernel

#1040
DatSwan (5): MiX, jotheonah, EFHW, Glooble, Chairs
jotheonah (1): DatSwan
Not Voting (6): arishipshape, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, A Drowned Kernel, faust

#1049
DatSwan (6): MiX, jotheonah, EFHW, Glooble, Chairs, faust
jotheonah (1): DatSwan
Not Voting (5): arishipshape, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, A Drowned Kernel

#1057
DatSwan (6): MiX, jotheonah, EFHW, Glooble, Chairs, faust
jotheonah (1): DatSwan
Not Voting (5): arishipshape, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, A Drowned Kernel

#1062
DatSwan (7): MiX, jotheonah, EFHW, Glooble, Chairs, faust, arishipshape
jotheonah (1): DatSwan
Not Voting (4): gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, A Drowned Kernel

#1068
DatSwan (8): MiX, jotheonah, EFHW, Glooble, Chairs, faust, arishipshape, Galzria
jotheonah (1): DatSwan
Not Voting (3): gkrieg13, SpaceAnemone, A Drowned Kernel



VOTING FOR DAY 3

#1084
Glooble (1): MiX
Not Voting (9): Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Glooble, Galzria, faust, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1088
Not Voting (10): Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Glooble, Galzria, faust, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, MiX

#1094
EFHW (1): MiX
Not Voting (9): Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Glooble, Galzria, faust, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1098
EFHW (1): MiX
Chairs (1): Glooble
Not Voting (8): Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, faust, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1101
Chairs (2): Glooble, MiX
Not Voting (8): Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, faust, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1104
Chairs (3): Glooble, MiX, A Drowned Kernel
Not Voting (7): Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, Galzria, faust, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1106
Chairs (2): Glooble, A Drowned Kernel
EFHW (1): MiX
Not Voting (7): Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, Galzria, faust, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1109
Chairs (2): Glooble, A Drowned Kernel
EFHW (1): MiX
Glooble (1): faust
Not Voting (6): Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1112
Chairs (2): Glooble, A Drowned Kernel
Glooble (1): faust
Not Voting (7): Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, MiX

#1122
Chairs (2): Glooble, A Drowned Kernel
Glooble (1): faust
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
Not Voting (6): Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1124
Chairs (2): Glooble, A Drowned Kernel
Glooble (1): faust
Not Voting (7): Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, MiX

#1154
Chairs (1): A Drowned Kernel
Glooble (1): faust
MiX (1): Glooble
Not Voting (7): Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, MiX

#1161
Chairs (1): A Drowned Kernel
Glooble (2): faust, Galzria
MiX (1): Glooble
Not Voting (6): Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, MiX

#1171
Chairs (1): A Drowned Kernel
Glooble (3): faust, Galzria, MiX
MiX (1): Glooble
Not Voting (5): Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1181
Chairs (1): A Drowned Kernel
Glooble (3): faust, Galzria, MiX
MiX (2): Glooble, jotheonah
Not Voting (4): Chairs, gkrieg13, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1182
Chairs (1): A Drowned Kernel
Glooble (3): faust, Galzria, MiX
MiX (3): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13
Not Voting (3): Chairs, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1183
Glooble (4): faust, Galzria, MiX, A Drowned Kernel
MiX (3): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13
Not Voting (3): Chairs, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1198
MiX (3): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13
Glooble (3): Galzria, MiX, A Drowned Kernel
Not Voting (4): Chairs, SpaceAnemone, EFHW, faust

#1199
MiX (3): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13
Glooble (4): Galzria, MiX, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW
Not Voting (3): Chairs, SpaceAnemone, faust

#1220
MiX (3): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13
Glooble (5): Galzria, MiX, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW, Chairs
Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, faust

#1230
MiX (3): Glooble, jotheonah, gkrieg13
Glooble (4): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW, Chairs
gkrieg13 (1): MiX
Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, faust

#1231
Glooble (4): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW, Chairs
MiX (2): jotheonah, gkrieg13
gkrieg13 (1): MiX
Chairs (1): Glooble
Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, faust

#1294
Glooble (4): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW, Chairs
MiX (2): jotheonah, gkrieg13
Chairs (2): Glooble, MiX
Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, faust

#1298
Glooble (5): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW, Chairs, gkrieg13
MiX (1): jotheonah
Chairs (2): Glooble, MiX
Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, faust

#1300
Glooble (6): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW, Chairs, gkrieg13, MiX
MiX (1): jotheonah
Chairs (1): Glooble
Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, faust

#1313
Glooble (5): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW, Chairs, gkrieg13
MiX (1): jotheonah
Chairs (2): Glooble, MiX
Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, faust

#1331
Glooble (6): Galzria, A Drowned Kernel, EFHW, Chairs, gkrieg13, faust
MiX (1): jotheonah
Chairs (2): Glooble, MiX
Not Voting (1): SpaceAnemone



VOTING FOR DAY 4

#1340
gkrieg13 (1): MiX
Not Voting (7): Chairs, jotheonah, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1347
gkrieg13 (1): MiX
MiX (1): jotheonah
Not Voting (6): Chairs, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1358
MiX (1): jotheonah
Chairs (1): MiX
Not Voting (6): Chairs, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1386
MiX (1): jotheonah
Chairs (1): MiX
Not Voting (6): Chairs, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1389
MiX (1): jotheonah
Chairs (1): MiX
Not Voting (6): Chairs, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1390
MiX (1): jotheonah
Chairs (2): MiX, EFHW
Not Voting (5): Chairs, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone

#1391
MiX (1): jotheonah
Chairs (2): MiX, EFHW
Not Voting (5): Chairs, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone

#1393
MiX (1): jotheonah
Chairs (3): MiX, EFHW, gkrieg13
Not Voting (4): Chairs, A Drowned Kernel, Galzria, SpaceAnemone

#1394
MiX (2): jotheonah, Chairs
Chairs (3): MiX, EFHW, gkrieg13
Not Voting (3): A Drowned Kernel, Galzria, SpaceAnemone

#1397
MiX (2): jotheonah, Chairs
Chairs (2): MiX, EFHW
Not Voting (4): A Drowned Kernel, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, gkrieg13

#1463
MiX (2): jotheonah, Chairs
Chairs (3): MiX, EFHW, Galzria
Not Voting (3): A Drowned Kernel, SpaceAnemone, gkrieg13

#1473
MiX (2): jotheonah, Chairs
Chairs (4): MiX, EFHW, Galzria, gkrieg13
Not Voting (2): A Drowned Kernel, SpaceAnemone



VOTING FOR DAY 5

#1480
gkrieg13 (1): MiX
Not Voting (5): A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

#1481
gkrieg13 (2): MiX, EFHW
Not Voting (4): A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone

#1482
gkrieg13 (3): MiX, EFHW, A Drowned Kernel
Not Voting (3): gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone

#1561
gkrieg13 (4): MiX, EFHW, A Drowned Kernel, Galzria
Not Voting (2): gkrieg13, SpaceAnemone

[EFHW]

Tomorrow I'll look at the VCA.

[MiX]

Hey I just realized you just recieved a scum!me game, that should help you figure out how I operate as scum. Spoilers: I very awkwardly bus and back off at any sign of trouble. At least that's what it felt like.

I read Space's VCA because I'm bored and there's nothing for me to do in this game, but this is interesting:

#540
Joseph2302 (1): SpaceAnemone
MiX (5): Glooble, Chairs, jotheonah, gkrieg13, faust
Galzria (1): EFHW
A Drowned Kernel (5): DatSwan, Joseph2302, MiX, Galzria, mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): arishipshape
Not Voting (1): A Drowned Kernel

After mcmc puts ADK at 5 votes, three people move their votes:

Swan votes for Joseph, although it has a PPE that covers mcmc's vote;
ADK votes for Galz;
chairs votes for joth.

Isn't it interesting how they all moved their vote after ADK was in danger? I don't know, it looks pretty convenient.


Does anyone have questions? Because I don't feel like making a case for ADK, it kinda writes itself (weird interaction, running away when their lynches are viable) whereas my case's much worse (I would've had to bus incredibly hard D2 and D4, especially D2, where it was unecessary, whereas ADK moved his vote from Swan).

[EFHW]

I've gone over the vote counts in some detail now. ADK and MiX have very different styles.

-- ADK votes infrequently, only starts one wagon. Is there a scum narrative for their not wanting to lynch Galzria? Day 2 they start that wagon but get off when it reaches 4 votes. The other people on that wagon were joth, MiX and Glooble. They then vote DatSwan as 3rd on wagon but get off when it reaches 5.

-- MiX votes and unvotes frequently, often starting wagons and then unvoting. Day 3 he does this with Glooble, me and Space in the space of 40 posts. Then he does an odd thing of voting Glooble alternating with voting chairs with Glooble. 4th iteration, he ends up on the Glooble mislynch. He unambivalently contributed to the lynches of both chairs and DatSwan.

My conclusion is that ADK is more likely to be scum.

[MiX]

Space in the space

Sure you noticed this right? Anyway, that whole post's pretty much my case, beautiful isn't it?

[EFHW]

Vote: ADK

L-1

PPE: Yes, I did notice it.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: ADK

L-1

PPE: Yes, I did notice it.

That's really unfortunate.

I haven't been paying much attention to this game, honestly, because I thought that things were going well for us and there wasn't much to do. But if you would allow me to make my case against mix, I can dig in and do a reread and see if I can convince you.

When is deadline?

[EFHW]

Ok, unvote for now. I'm interested to see what you have to say.

[Uncleeurope]

When is deadline?

"Ehhhh, June 1 10:30 PM EST?

...I think?"

For someone who loved clarity, Uncleeurope wasn't too good at it.

[MiX]

Awww, ADK's trying! Do I also need to reread and make a case against him? Gkrieg already isolated so many of his scummy posts, not sure if I can add anything meaningfull to them.

[SpaceAnemone]

When is deadline?

"Ehhhh, June 1 10:30 PM EST?

...I think?"

For someone who loved clarity, Uncleeurope wasn't too good at it.

Erm.. just for clarity, is "EST" the same as Forum Time? Like is it around 12.57 EST when I post this, or should I be accounting for summertime somehow? Thanks!

[EFHW]

We're in daylight time. Forum is UTC-4. You posted at 12:58.

[Uncleeurope]

When is deadline?

"Ehhhh, June 1 10:30 PM EST?

...I think?"

For someone who loved clarity, Uncleeurope wasn't too good at it.

Erm.. just for clarity, is "EST" the same as Forum Time? Like is it around 12.57 EST when I post this, or should I be accounting for summertime somehow? Thanks!

I think you have it right, this is why I dislike dealing with this. I assumed everyone's "forum time" automatically set to their current time zone. Is everyone's forum really set to EST?

[SpaceAnemone]

We're in daylight time. Forum is UTC-4. You posted at 12:58.

I can see that I posted at 12.58 forum time.. the key info I'm missing is whether or not that is also EST :-)

Does the definition of EST move with summer hours, or is it like UTC, where many of us move by an hour relative to it when summer time kicks in for our respective countries/timezones?

[EFHW]

When is deadline?

"Ehhhh, June 1 10:30 PM EST?

...I think?"

For someone who loved clarity, Uncleeurope wasn't too good at it.

Erm.. just for clarity, is "EST" the same as Forum Time? Like is it around 12.57 EST when I post this, or should I be accounting for summertime somehow? Thanks!

I think you have it right, this is why I dislike dealing with this. I assumed everyone's "forum time" automatically set to their current time zone. Is everyone's forum really set to EST?

I don't know. I happen to live in the same zone as FT. It's EDT, though, not EST.

[EFHW]

We're in daylight time. Forum is UTC-4. You posted at 12:58.

I can see that I posted at 12.58 forum time.. the key info I'm missing is whether or not that is also EST :-)

Does the definition of EST move with summer hours, or is it like UTC, where many of us move by an hour relative to it when summer time kicks in for our respective countries/timezones?

EDT is UTC-4, EST is UTC-5. FT reflects EDT.

[SpaceAnemone]

When is deadline?

"Ehhhh, June 1 10:30 PM EST?

...I think?"

For someone who loved clarity, Uncleeurope wasn't too good at it.

Erm.. just for clarity, is "EST" the same as Forum Time? Like is it around 12.57 EST when I post this, or should I be accounting for summertime somehow? Thanks!

I think you have it right, this is why I dislike dealing with this. I assumed everyone's "forum time" automatically set to their current time zone. Is everyone's forum really set to EST?

If you're telling me that EST is just exactly the same as Forum Time, then yes, by default everyone's timezone comes set that way. However, I think Haddock told me specifically not to tell it my local time when I first joined f.ds, since I joined specifically to play Mafia, and knowing forum time is useful :-)

I guess many of us outside the US just don't have reason to know what the US timezones are, or how they work in terms of what changes when and what they're called in its summer and winter incarnations... whereas Forum Time is something I can read, and the forum itself takes care of the rest, which is why I find it far and away the easiest method of specifying game times. Though it's also really useful to get a warning from the locals when forum time is about to go forward or back an hour, because I've observed that it generally doesn't move on the same dates as UK time :-P

PPE 2: I'm marginally more confused now! I think everyone's default is EDT, which is the one currently at UTC-4, because I'm currently in BST, which is UTC+1, and I know I'm currently 5 hours ahead of FT. I think the key question I was trying to get at earlier was whether EDT (or EST?) is always at the offsets from UTC that EFHW specified, or whether one or other (or both?) of them moves relative to UTC round the year... I assume it's one of those things that's just common knowledge in the US and which I could read up on somewhere, but which I'd far rather avoid having to do by using FT :-P

[Uncleeurope]

I am fairly certain forum time lines up with my clock, hence why I thought the forum auto-set to the time line of the user.

I will know for certain in 2 seconds.

[Uncleeurope]

The forum time does indeed match my clock, and I am EST.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Here's my case on MiX:

Day One MiX stuff:

Mix is one of the more active players day one. A lot of his posts are on one of two topics: the setup and the possibility of him getting lynched. When there's pressure on him, there's an emotional tone to a lot of his post, and he outright says alongside a number of his votes that he's moving there for survival. He also moves his vote around quite a lot.

Mix, from my experience, is someone who puts a lot of emotion into his posts, and more to the point, knows that people generally read it as towny; I think that in these posts he's consciously playing up the pressure that he's feeling in order to get it off of him. He also seems to be particular where he redirects it: most of his votes are for gkrieg, joth, and me.

Here's some specifics I found:

Very early vote for Datswan. Notable in that this is still close to RVS, he doesn't really push over the next few posts, then drops it a little later to switch to me, then switches to a town read on swan. In between these posts swan did nothing but talk about the setup.

An early vote for chairs, at a point where people are voting to put pressure on someone who hasn't posted. He does it immediately after glooble does it, and the reasoning is something that's very easy to walk back.

I point out these two votes because they're the majority of Mix's early interaction with the two; early votes with easily retractable reasons, that don't really lead into a direct interaction with the players in question.

A big ol' reads list, with datswan and chairs in the same category and next to no commentary. He doesn't even say if he wants to lynch them, just asserting that there's no interest.

Mix makes some brief mentions of swan late in the day, in this post he mentions datswan and EFHW as potential lynch candidates by virtue of not having been talked about. And then a bit later, he votes for EFHW, with no further mention of swan.

The last notable D1 moment I want to highlight is mix's VT claim. Whether a VT claim or a PR claim is scummier is a lot of WIFOM, but there's a point that I didn't consider at the time that I think explains why scum might lean toward claiming VT: at this point in the game, scum doesn't know the setup; they don't know whether we're in the upper left or lower right quadrant. This means that part of the value of claiming a PR- that is, outing a powerful town PR- is more of a gamble than usual, because if you claim from the wrong quadrant, you could easily be outed without any town PRs claiming at all. For example, if mix had claimed cop, after joseph flipped, we would have caught him without having to out anyone at all. I don't know if that thought factored into mix's decision, but it was a thought that I had when I was rereading the wagon on him and his claim.

Day One chairs and Datswan stuff:

So the most notable Datswan stuff from day one: when mix and I are the leading wagons, he spends a lot of time defending mix. Like, a lot. He makes it very clear that if it comes down to me or mix, he wants to lynch me.

chairs is a terse, lurky player. He
votes for me, then switches to mix, switches
back to me, then back to mix, and finally backs off mix as soon as mix claims. His last post of the day is to vote for joth.

Day Two MiX stuff:

Similarly to his efforts D1 on not getting lynched, a lot of his effort on D2 is to avoid being challenged. He also busses Swan considerably, especially as the day goes on. I think it's pretty likely that during N1, he and swan looked back on D1, saw how much swan was defending him, and decided they needed to try and disassociate themselves from each other.

His first post of the day offhandedly mentions swan as possible scum, without much elaboration. He brings it up again, then votes, but is also careful to keep his options open.

He votes for datswan right after joth challenges, but still makes sure that he has an out, at least until the datswan lynch starts looking inevitable.

This post is noteworthy, in that it's the first post where mix asserts that he's an IC, and is also around when mix starts doubling down on the bus. This ties into a couple of threads that, looking over the game as a whole, I think are related: 1) mix's focus on asserting his townieness, and 2) the fact that this was a very bussy game for scum. But more on that later.

Day 2 chairs and Datswan stuff:

Datswan doesn't have a lot of content pre-challenge, again a lot of setup stuff, and post-challenge is mostly him trying not to get lynched. Worth noting, in his most substantial post of the day, he continues to back mix.

chairs is terse and lurky again. Starts with saying he'll vote for joth over mix, then switches, then immediately puts his suspicion back on joth, then is back to finding mix towny.

Also worth noting: chairs has no qualms bussing swan. Again, the high level of bussing this game is something I'll talk about more later.

Day 3 MiX stuff:

Mix pushes glooble a ton, though also swings his votes elsewhere now and then. At this point, I think my theory is that his derphammer was a genuine accident, albeit one that ultimately benefiting his team.

First post of the day, again asserting that he's an IC, and bringing up the possibility of the lynchee. He brings this up a couple of times later, and here's why I think it's important: it's becoming clear as D3 goes on that scum is in danger of getting killed by PoE. MiX knows that I'm town, and also suspects I might be the lynchee. If he argues too strongly against that, people will see that he's scum trying to keep the lynch pool wider. So he tries to sound out whether other people also suspect that, while trying to push his own towniness.

This is were the whole bussing issue comes in: I think that at this point in the game, scum needs to rely on getting as much towncred on one player as they can, and hoping that player can outlast the rest of the dwindling lynchpool. This is why mix is so willing to bus his partner, and explains chairs behavior D4 (will get to that later).

Some specific mix posts: He starts with a vote for glooble, switches to chairs based on a case from glooble (someone he's claiming to scumread), then jumps off because an IC told him to.

Later, he asks why people aren't considering chairs, but doesn't vote. Then he narrows the pool to chairs and gkrieg, while voting gkrieg.
The pattern I see, which goes back to D1, is lots of mentioning of his partners in a “I could vote this way” fashion, without actually committing, or making sure that there's someone else in the set of people he's talking about.

Finally actually votes for chairs, then switches to Glooble for the derphammer. Again, I actually think this is a genuine accident; mix is just swinging his vote around enough because for the long term plan, he needs any lynch that isn't him.

Day 3 chairs stuff:

chairs makes all of two posts on D3, one where he claims VT and one where he defends mix and votes for glooble. What's interesting about this is that at the start of the next day, he's somehow switched to a scumread on mix.

Day 4, Mix and chairs:

So here's the big question: why does mix challenge his partner here, and not gkrieg? And I've been thinking about this, and I think that the answer isn't that mix is afraid that he won't win vs. gkrieg, he's afraid of what happens if he does win against gkrieg. If mix challenges gkrieg, gkrieg flips town, and then the next day the lynch pool is mix, chairs, and me, and maybe, maybe galz, and in that scenario, after challenging gkrieg, no way does he not get lynched; after that it would be down to me and chairs, and I don't think chairs would have won that. So when mix lays out this plan, what he's describing isn't “suicidal”, it's literally scum's only viable path to victory at this point. The biggest hurdle is that mix has to get to this point and get me lynched, which is basically where we are right now.

When you look at chairs's posts on D4, he basically offers up no resistance or makes any attempt to get mix lynched over himself. He either realized all of the above or it had been discussed in detail the night before.

Day 5:

Not much to see here, basically just mix pushing the gkrieg wagon, while making sure he sets up the switch over to me tomorrow.

So I've spent the last few hours going over this game, hopefully I've got enough stuff here to convince you two, because I'm pretty sure this is the last great effort I'm willing to put into this game. Scummy mix posts, a scum narrative for his play, mix is scum, please vote mix. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

[MiX]

ADK's the best scum ever, I don't think anyone else would put as much effort on this day. Huge wall, so it'll take forever for me to argue against specific points, and honestly, unlike ADK, I don't have a grand narrative of "scum bussed super hard and is trying to get towncred for just 1 scum (although it happened for ADK because of the whole Lynchee thing, I doubt it was planned) so they can win at LyLo", just how I pretty much never backed off from Swan and was vital for his lynch.

I'll try to defend the case, but don't expect me to analyze everything ADK did.

[MiX]

Quoting is almost impossible in mobile since the post is huge, so enjoys these "quotes":

"Mix, from my experience, is someone who puts a lot of emotion into his posts, and more to the point, knows that people generally read it as towny; I think that in these posts he's consciously playing up the pressure that he's feeling in order to get it off of him."

       This is a pretty accurate description of my play this game. After I was the main wagon and I was about to get lynched I knew the game would rest on my pervieced townieness, which is why I did a LOT to prove that. Never once did I stop scumhunting, however.

"Very early vote for Datswan. Notable in that this is still close to RVS, he doesn't really push over the next few posts, then drops it a little later to switch to me, then switches to a town read on swan. In between these posts swan did nothing but talk about the setup."

       Swan is scum because he's pretending to not read the setup is a really hard case to push. I ended up scumreading him less because he started reading it, which at the time felt towny. That and Swan had done this every game so I could've been wrong.

"An early vote for chairs, at a point where people are voting to put pressure on someone who hasn't posted. He does it immediately after glooble does it, and the reasoning is something that's very easy to walk back."

       This means nothing and is irrelevent for this case. I would do that regardless of anything.

"Mix makes some brief mentions of swan late in the day, in this post he mentions datswan and EFHW as potential lynch candidates by virtue of not having been talked about. And then a bit later, he votes for EFHW, with no further mention of swan."

       EFHW had the bigger wagon (1 vote instead of 0), also I was townreading who was on it (ari). Getting a lynch that late was going to be hard and I wasn't in a position to start wagons.

"So the most notable Datswan stuff from day one: when mix and I are the leading wagons, he spends a lot of time defending mix. Like, a lot. He makes it very clear that if it comes down to me or mix, he wants to lynch me."

     Yet he goes for Joseph to avoid lynching you. Which backfired after Joseph flipped Lyncher, but he was one of the biggest pushers for him. I have to admit, it was a good bus by Swan, very little risk.

"His first post of the day offhandedly mentions swan as possible scum, without much elaboration. He brings it up again, then votes, but is also careful to keep his options open."

      So I...scumread Swan, then again, then I vote, and then I have the audacity to reread??? How dare I! Obviously REAL town make a really awkward wall post townreading Swan and scumreading joth followed with a Swan unvote, like you did (don't forget chairs voted Swan after that, not related, not trying to get 1 scum on the wagon, nah, couldn't be). Clearly we can all agree that your backing off's scummier?

"Some specific mix posts: He starts with a vote for glooble, switches to chairs based on a case from glooble (someone he's claiming to scumread), then jumps off because an IC told him to."

     This is quite an interesting point: why on earth can I not vote where my scumreads are voting? At any given moment I have 2 states: one where I think Glooble's scum, and one where I think chairs' scum. I fail to see why in the second one I should account for my scumread on Glooble, for if I were to scumread them I would just vote them. Glooble's case on chairs was so good that I believed that at least one of them had to be scum, so if I'm not voting Glooble, why not chairs?

"Later, he asks why people aren't considering chairs, but doesn't vote. Then he narrows the pool to chairs and gkrieg, while voting gkrieg.
The pattern I see, which goes back to D1, is lots of mentioning of his partners in a “I could vote this way” fashion, without actually committing, or making sure that there's someone else in the set of people he's talking about."

     The question here is simply: why wouldn't I bus chairs? Much safer, better towncred and I know Glooble's dropping anyway so did it matter? Not really. There was no way chairs would live anyway.

"So when mix lays out this plan, what he's describing isn't “suicidal”, it's literally scum's only viable path to victory at this point. The biggest hurdle is that mix has to get to this point and get me lynched, which is basically where we are right now"

      This is correct, actually. But PLANNING this all the way from D2, that's suicide. Swan getting lynched severely decreased scum's chance of winning, from good to mislynching me and gkrieg (and Glooble, but that was easier).

"Scummy mix posts, a scum narrative for his play, mix is scum, please vote mix. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk."

      Better narrative: Swan died too soon so you were in the rocks, however, you were percieved as Lynchee: this allowed you to carry all the way to LyLo (while scumreading me all the way) to then win against gkrieg/me.


There's my wall post. I might bring up ADK's "MiX is scum" posts, if there's a lot (let's face it, I didn't notice ADK top much, was townreading them) and hmm yeah that's my defence. Any questions?

[MiX]

Everyone should read #951:

And tell me how this isn't a huge stretch to scumread joth as much as possible while townreading Swan as much as possible.

[EFHW]

1) All the skum is within [Ari, Swan, Chairs, ADK, GK, Glooble, Space, EFHW]... which is either 2/8 or 3/8
2) Some amount of skum is within the same pool, and another is within [Joth, Mix, Galz, faust]

Why is it either 2/8 or 3/8?

The overall post is a really big stretch to scumread ICs. Yeah, I want Swan to claim here.

Vote: Swan

This post was just before joth challenged DatSwan. Scumreading DatSwan so strongly (his post just before was a "100%" sure scumread) knowing joth is looking for someone to challenge just seems illogical for scum!MiX here.

[EFHW]

Question for everyone: What is the scum motivation for ADK to suggest a promoter claim right at the beginning of the game?

[MiX]

Question for everyone: What is the scum motivation for ADK to suggest a promoter claim right at the beginning of the game?

Funzies? Got me to (probably) act scummy while I supported it, while he could flip flop on his stance regarding claiming. It's also anti-town since he knows there's a town Promoter, the discussion was only good if promoter was scum. Also I think he was made a potential lynch candidate (Swan and chairs bussed him, and of course his promoter talk got him scumread by town) so he could get targetted by the cop, given he's Godfather. But that's more of a stretch.

[EFHW]

Space?

[SpaceAnemone]

Space?

Reading and thinking. The main problem I'm coming across is that there are cases on both, and both have clearly engaged in bussing. It makes me want to go for a tone read, but I already know that MiX comes out of those sounding scummy in a way that I'm not convinced is from alignment rather than just his norman thought processes. I still really don't like the way he kept insisting he's IC.

Anyway, while the various "would he bus if X" arguments are weakened bit by the clear evidence that someone bussed somewhere, let's look through that history.

MiX votes both Swan and then Chairs in early D1, but then never returns to them.

Chairs votes MiX from #278, through his 6-person D1 wagon, and doesn't move off till #369.

Even more interesting, at #369, ADK's whole wagon is just Swan and Chairs... it's unusual for scum to clump like that with no townies supporting the wagon, but i don't think I know whether the subject of the wagon in such a weird situation is more likely to be scum or town.

Around #500-#550, MiX and ADK emerge as leading wagons, with Swan on the slowly-building ADK wagon and Chairs on the slightly more established MiX wagon.

At the beginning of D2, Chairs goes straight for MiX, and MiX goes for Swan. I can't help but wonder whether they've talked about bussing aggressively in the scum QT and then just run with it.
In contrast, ADK is briefly on Swan in the middle of D2 (#927-#952), but ends the day not voting. That's worth a re-read.

Okay, re-read that snippet. It's interesting that Chairs's post of being "Firmly in vote: datswan territory now" at #953 immediately follows a post by MiX where he says he's keeping his vote on Swan because he's stubborn. Could it be two enthusiastic buses feeding off each other?

In D3, MiX and ADK both vote early for Chairs. So again, we're definitely seeing pretty eager bussing from our remaining scum. ADK ends the day on-wagon on the Glooble mislynch, while MiX end the day on Chairs.

In D4, ADK does remarkably little (says me, hah!). Surely scum would feel under more pressure to be present and gain towncred?

MiX comes into D5 with "Good game everyone!" -- that seems a bit overconfident! Meanwhile ADK only makes 3 posts that day (to MiX's nine). Funny that in late D4, he suggested that maybe Chairs/gkrieg were using a lurking strategy to stay under the radar as a survival strategy.. all the while staying under the radar himself too. It feels almost too obvious, and also doesn't fit with the agressively-bussing Chairs we know we've seen in the game.

So yeah, it seems like I've kind of talked myself into the position that scum have been seen to have bussed pretty consistently and aggressively in this game, so I don't think giving MiX a pass just for his bussing is a good idea. Gkrieg tried constructing a scum narrative around ADK and didn't manage even though his survival more or less depended on it, which is also worth considering retrospectively.

[EFHW]

What about MiX instigating the choice of DatSwan by joth?

[MiX]

" It's interesting that Chairs's post of being "Firmly in vote: datswan territory now" at #953 immediately follows a post by MiX where he says he's keeping his vote on Swan because he's stubborn. Could it be two enthusiastic buses feeding off each other?"

My post comes right after I read ADK's wall post, and it's a "I read your arguments and I'm not convinced by them" kind of post. Especially since ADK clearly had an agenda when writting it, but I wasn't so sure at the time.

ADK's unvote of Swan D2, coupled with the wall post that accompanies it, is probably the scummiest thing he's done this game, not so much for his Swan townread, but more for the joth scumread. Yeah I've said this before, but it stands true.

[EFHW]

Space?

So yeah, it seems like I've kind of talked myself into the position that scum have been seen to have bussed pretty consistently and aggressively in this game, so I don't think giving MiX a pass just for his bussing is a good idea. Gkrieg tried constructing a scum narrative around ADK and didn't manage even though his survival more or less depended on it, which is also worth considering retrospectively.

Is MiX being given a pass for bussing? It seems like he is being accused of bussing. Maybe you mean giving him a pass on the assumption that he wouldn't bus so hard?

ADK also didn't manage to make much of case against MiX, and his life depends on it.

[A Drowned Kernel]

ADK also didn't manage to make much of case against MiX, and his life depends on it.

I mean, it's hard for me because for me the case against mix is "there's literally no one else it can be", so I had to go back and look for things that I hoped would convince you two. If what I found doesn't convince you then that's one thing, but if you saying I'm not putting forth effort then that's patently ridiculous.

[MiX]

ADK also didn't manage to make much of case against MiX, and his life depends on it.

I mean, it's hard for me because for me the case against mix is "there's literally no one else it can be", so I had to go back and look for things that I hoped would convince you two. If what I found doesn't convince you then that's one thing, but if you saying I'm not putting forth effort then that's patently ridiculous.

Huh, that's my case too! That and the way you backed off Swan: take a look at #951, can you explain in superb detail what you were thinking? Not that it matters, I guess you won't say "I felt like making a big reread to scumread joth and townread my partner, I thought that was something scum wouldn't really do there, I have to thank chairs for bussing Swan right after so we wouldn't get completely PoEd" but I would still like an answer.

[A Drowned Kernel]

ADK also didn't manage to make much of case against MiX, and his life depends on it.

I mean, it's hard for me because for me the case against mix is "there's literally no one else it can be", so I had to go back and look for things that I hoped would convince you two. If what I found doesn't convince you then that's one thing, but if you saying I'm not putting forth effort then that's patently ridiculous.

Huh, that's my case too! That and the way you backed off Swan: take a look at #951, can you explain in superb detail what you were thinking? Not that it matters, I guess you won't say "I felt like making a big reread to scumread joth and townread my partner, I thought that was something scum wouldn't really do there, I have to thank chairs for bussing Swan right after so we wouldn't get completely PoEd" but I would still like an answer.

Superb detail? I was doing a reread and trying to evaluate which of the two lynch candidates was most likely to be scum. Yes, I ended up backing off of a player who ended up being scum. I ended up being wrong in my reads. That's really all there is to it.

[MiX]

Well I guess I didn't really know what to expect from that question. Somewhere there must be a great ADK case proving he's scum, maybe I'll work on it...there's still 2 days, I guess.

[EFHW]

ADK also didn't manage to make much of case against MiX, and his life depends on it.

I mean, it's hard for me because for me the case against mix is "there's literally no one else it can be", so I had to go back and look for things that I hoped would convince you two. If what I found doesn't convince you then that's one thing, but if you saying I'm not putting forth effort then that's patently ridiculous.

I didn't mean that.

[EFHW]

ADK is correct that DatSwan defends MiX a lot. I don't know what to make of it. White knighting seems as likely as protecting a partner.

[A Drowned Kernel]

ADK also didn't manage to make much of case against MiX, and his life depends on it.

I mean, it's hard for me because for me the case against mix is "there's literally no one else it can be", so I had to go back and look for things that I hoped would convince you two. If what I found doesn't convince you then that's one thing, but if you saying I'm not putting forth effort then that's patently ridiculous.

I didn't mean that.

If you want to compare my case and mix's, mix's case on me pretty much just hinges on the one post I made on day two, where I'm making a pretty lengthy effort to sort two players whose alignments I don't know, and that fact that he was "instrumental" in getting DatSwan lynched, which is definitely an exaggeration- looking back at his posts, he never actually makes any sort of case on DatSwan or works to convince people, just basically says "let's lynch DatSwan!" a bunch. It's because he knows how swan is going to flip and is trying to build up towncred while he can.

If you want one simple, solid thing to look at out of things I pointed out up there, it's chairs's reaction to being challenged on D4. He makes a complete non-effort to get mix lynched over himself. He's taking the fall for his scumbuddy. There's lots of other things I poitned out, but that I think is one of the biggest tells in this game.

[MiX]

It's because he knows how swan is going to flip and is trying to build up towncred while he can.

How would scum know Swan's dropping early D2? It would be much better if Galz was challenged, or faust, or I don't know, who else was joth scumreading? Absolutely no reason to push for Swan there, look, it puts scum in LyLo at best where both scum are heavily under fire.

[SpaceAnemone]

Do we have a definitive deadline at the moment? I'm afraid on top of my usual Thursdayness hosting boardgames night (we all just died in Pandemic Iberia), I need to leave the house ~2 hours earlier than usual in the morning, meaning I need to be asleep in like 5 minutes or suffer lots of anxiety about not getting enough sleep...

I'm still feeling weirdly inclined to vote for MiX, but I'll actually have some free time tomorrow late and then Saturday, so let's see what else I can come up with, providing the deadline doesn't get in the way of it.

[EFHW]

Deadline is tomorrow 10:30 pm

[EFHW]

It's because he knows how swan is going to flip and is trying to build up towncred while he can.

How would scum know Swan's dropping early D2? It would be much better if Galz was challenged, or faust, or I don't know, who else was joth scumreading? Absolutely no reason to push for Swan there, look, it puts scum in LyLo at best where both scum are heavily under fire.

MiX was scumreading DatSwan from his 1st post Day 2. What is the scum narrative for that? What motivated taking the risk?

Also, chairs or DatSwan bussing MiX is a lot more dangerous than his bussing them, because there was a lot of support for lynching MiX. And the possible towncred is less because it was a popular wagon. I am on phone rn, but will look back at this later.

[A Drowned Kernel]

MiX was scumreading DatSwan from his 1st post Day 2. What is the scum narrative for that? What motivated taking the risk?

My best guess is that they were trying to compensate for swan defending mix on day one, and he ended up having to double down after joth started running out of potential challenge candidates. If you go back and look at how the day played out, it looked like joth was going to challenge mix, then galz, then faust, all before he gets to datswan. If you think that the lynch is going to be forced between two other people, casually bussing your partner isn't going to seem as dangerous. And then when joth actually challenged swan, he got caught.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Do we have a definitive deadline at the moment?

"Ehhhh, June 1 10:30 PM EST?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Deadline is tomorrow 10:30 pm

Two days (unless you're way ahead of me and it's already friday for you, don't know your timezone)

[EFHW]

Deadline is tomorrow 10:30 pm

Two days (unless you're way ahead of me and it's already friday for you, don't know your timezone)

Right you are!

[MiX]

If you think that the lynch is going to be forced between two other people, casually bussing your partner isn't going to seem as dangerous. And then when joth actually challenged swan, he got caught.

Why doesn't it seem dangerous? Look at D2, I'm pretty sure I was one of the main reasons why Swan was challenged (it's actually the best thing I did this game), why would scum do this? All I had to do was sit back and see who joth picked, no need to bus, scum would be in a much better position otherwise. Also "when Swan was challenged he got caught", do you mean Swan was caught or scum in general?

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm pretty sure I was one of the main reasons why Swan was challenged

You keep saying this but that doesn't make it true.

All I had to do was sit back and see who joth picked, no need to bus, scum would be in a much better position otherwise.

If you don't participate in the discussion of who joth picks, you end up looking scummy. The whole point of bussing is that people see when they go back to reread later and it gets you townpoints. You know, like what's happening right now.

Also "when Swan was challenged he got caught", do you mean Swan was caught or scum in general?

I meant that you got caught, having pushed swan and not being in a position backpedal on it.

Here's my question for you, mix: why were you scumreading swan on day 2?

[EFHW]

MiX was scumreading DatSwan from his 1st post Day 2. What is the scum narrative for that? What motivated taking the risk?

My best guess is that they were trying to compensate for swan defending mix on day one, and he ended up having to double down after joth started running out of potential challenge candidates. If you go back and look at how the day played out, it looked like joth was going to challenge mix, then galz, then faust, all before he gets to datswan. If you think that the lynch is going to be forced between two other people, casually bussing your partner isn't going to seem as dangerous. And then when joth actually challenged swan, he got caught.

This last sentence doesn't fit the facts. MiX had 2 posts in a row strongly suspecting DatSwan right before joth picked. So he's not getting caught. He's either genuinely scumhunting or brazenly bussing.

Most scum teams would not try the brazenly bussing plan so early in the game. If joth picked town, that's  a free mislynch.  Who would pass that up? I disagree that MiX was under pressure here.  joth still had a lot of choices.  There was no reason to expect him to pick DatSwan.  And if he did, scum!MiX could jump in enthusiastically at that point with the bussing.

I've realized that if I vote ADK here, that's the hammer no matter what Space does because ADK reached L-1 first.

PPE ADK

[EFHW]

It's pretty likely that MiX influenced joth, given the timing of the challenge and joth not focusing on DatSwan before then.

[MiX]

I meant that you got caught, having pushed swan and not being in a position backpedal on it.

Here's my question for you, mix: why were you scumreading swan on day 2?

Ah, so your narrative for my play is I bussed incredibly hard and didn't expect Swan to be caught? Read my D2, can you see anyway scum!me can backpedal from my incredible scumread on Swan? I'm not delusional, I would know, as scum, that bussing that hard means I have to continue, there's no way I would ever think "I called Swan almost always scum but I can 180 on joth, my biggest townread", no one is this crazy..

I was mainly scumreading him for his setup nonsense, coupled with the fact that scum was clearly chilling after early D2 and he was by far the scummiest of them.

PPE 1: I agree completely.

[EFHW]

ADK is correct that DatSwan defends MiX a lot. I don't know what to make of it. White knighting seems as likely as protecting a partner.

Datswan's posts don't read to me like he has an agenda.  My guess is that he was saying what he thought he would say as town, regardless of who his partners were.

[EFHW]

Intent to hammer later today.

[MiX]

Intent to hammer later today.

Did Space vote already?

[A Drowned Kernel]

I've realized that if I vote ADK here, that's the hammer no matter what Space does because ADK reached L-1 first.

I would obviously rather you didn't, then.

Look, I've made what case I can. I honestly don't know what mix's thought process or plan on day 2 was, but we're here, and if I can't convince then he's going to win, so whatever it was then it worked.

[MiX]

Yaaaay I snuffed out ADK's will to live! Finally, one day scum has to acknowledge they're wrong, right? Wooooo celebrating before the decision's been made! Emotion will win!

[MiX]

Intent to hammer later today.

Oh, okay I understand this now.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Yaaaay I snuffed out ADK's will to live! Finally, one day scum has to acknowledge they're wrong, right? Wooooo celebrating before the decision's been made! Emotion will win!

I'm not acknowledging anything, dude. I'm just stating that I've made my case and there's no point in endlessly repeating myself. I'll grant you that you've played a very good game here, and I've been pretty complacent the past few days, so if town loses here, it's pretty much on me.

[EFHW]

No one has addressed the scum vs. town motivations of ADK proposing the promoter claim early on and mass claim later. How do those narratives go?

[A Drowned Kernel]

No one has addressed the scum vs. town motivations of ADK proposing the promoter claim early on and mass claim later. How do those narratives go?

I mean, the town narrative is that I thought those things would be helpful.

[MiX]

No one has addressed the scum vs. town motivations of ADK proposing the promoter claim early on and mass claim later. How do those narratives go?

I mean, the town narrative is that I thought those things would be helpful.

And the scum narrative is that it's anti-town to do so if there's a town promoter. But I did it too so I can't blame him.

[MiX]

No one has addressed the scum vs. town motivations of ADK proposing the promoter claim early on and mass claim later. How do those narratives go?

I mean, the town narrative is that I thought those things would be helpful.

And the scum narrative is that it's anti-town to do so if there's a town promoter. But I did it too so I can't blame him.

Oh, I missed the massclaim part. Again, I did the same, so whatever townieness/scummieness it inherently adds is nullyfied.

[EFHW]

Does this post come from scum or town?

We should massclaim.

I'm serious. I was looking at the setup and we can get fantastic PoE.

What I'm thinking is:
-bodyguard claims (who cares, they're bodyguard, dying to protect a PR is the point of the role anyway)
-if psychologist has an innocent result from last night (guaranteed to be innocent at this point) that is NOT one of the claimed PRs, they claim with that result
-if psychologist claims, vengeful townie claims

Scum can't counter or fakeclaim this early because we just catch them. If we accept galz's claim (I do), we have six ICs out of 12 people. That leaves 3 scum in 6 people. If we can determine the towniness of just one person in that group, we win

Scummy:
They forget about traitor, assuming that psychologist's cannot kill target would be IC.
They give Galz IC status prematurely.
Outing vengeful townie and psychologist is good for scum.
If the psychologist thought they could create an IC and that that would be good, they would do it without a mass claim.

Null:
I don't see why vengeful townie only claims if psychologist does.


Towny:
They protect the psychologist somewhat by suggesting they only claim with new information.
Creating ICs is bad for scum.
Their reasoning about bodyguard makes sense, and claiming PRs makes the bodguard's job easier.

I have to go. Maybe more on this later.

For the record, I don't like MiX's reaction to my intent to hammer.

[EFHW]

No one has addressed the scum vs. town motivations of ADK proposing the promoter claim early on and mass claim later. How do those narratives go?

I mean, the town narrative is that I thought those things would be helpful.

Then you changed your mind. It would be helpful to hear how your thoughts developed.

[MiX]

EFHW, that post's just the next logical step town had to do. Nothing towny or scummy. If you assume Galz is town (which was a fair assumption at the time) then there's no contradictions in his post.

Sorry if you don't like my early celebration of victory, I'm just realizing how bad giving a pass to ADK was and I want to get my awesone towncred back.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Does this post come from scum or town?

We should massclaim.

I'm serious. I was looking at the setup and we can get fantastic PoE.

What I'm thinking is:
-bodyguard claims (who cares, they're bodyguard, dying to protect a PR is the point of the role anyway)
-if psychologist has an innocent result from last night (guaranteed to be innocent at this point) that is NOT one of the claimed PRs, they claim with that result
-if psychologist claims, vengeful townie claims

Scum can't counter or fakeclaim this early because we just catch them. If we accept galz's claim (I do), we have six ICs out of 12 people. That leaves 3 scum in 6 people. If we can determine the towniness of just one person in that group, we win

Scummy:
They forget about traitor, assuming that psychologist's cannot kill target would be IC.
They give Galz IC status prematurely.
Outing vengeful townie and psychologist is good for scum.
If the psychologist thought they could create an IC and that that would be good, they would do it without a mass claim.

Null:
I don't see why vengeful townie only claims if psychologist does.


Towny:
They protect the psychologist somewhat by suggesting they only claim with new information.
Creating ICs is bad for scum.
Their reasoning about bodyguard makes sense, and claiming PRs makes the bodguard's job easier.

I have to go. Maybe more on this later.

For the record, I don't like MiX's reaction to my intent to hammer.

The disregarding the traitor thing followed from the "assuming Galz is town" thing. Basically I found it extremely unlikely that scum!galz would claim the way he did, and galz being town implied that there wasn't a traitor.

The "vengeful townie claims after psychologist" was just to prevent someone from claiming prematurely; I figured that the massclaim was only worth it if we could create a majority of ICs, and if the psychologist's N1 result didn't do that, then they should have stayed hidden.

[A Drowned Kernel]

No one has addressed the scum vs. town motivations of ADK proposing the promoter claim early on and mass claim later. How do those narratives go?

I mean, the town narrative is that I thought those things would be helpful.

Then you changed your mind. It would be helpful to hear how your thoughts developed.

For the D1 plans, there were a lot of people raising decent points about the drawbacks of the promoter claiming. I'm still not sure whether it would have been a good idea or not; I suppose that's a discussion for after the game. My thoughts on the matter develop pretty much as you see D1, with me going back and forth on the subject.

For the D2 massclaim, the relevant PRs didn't come forward, so I figured they had either better info or different opinions than I did and dropped it. We got basically the same effect D3 so it all worked out.

[MiX]

For the D2 massclaim, the relevant PRs didn't come forward, so I figured they had either better info or different opinions than I did and dropped it. We got basically the same effect D3 so it all worked out.

Wait, this was D2? What was the point for a massclaim D2? It was obvious that bodyguard would protect Tracker, why out more PRs to confuse the bodyguard? D3 was a muuuuch better time for it, given we were winning there and scum couldn't counterclaim anymore.

[A Drowned Kernel]

For the D2 massclaim, the relevant PRs didn't come forward, so I figured they had either better info or different opinions than I did and dropped it. We got basically the same effect D3 so it all worked out.

Wait, this was D2? What was the point for a massclaim D2? It was obvious that bodyguard would protect Tracker, why out more PRs to confuse the bodyguard? D3 was a muuuuch better time for it, given we were winning there and scum couldn't counterclaim anymore.

We didn't know we were going to lynch scum D2 and be in the that position. The D2 massclaim would have still given us really good PoE.

[MiX]

For the D2 massclaim, the relevant PRs didn't come forward, so I figured they had either better info or different opinions than I did and dropped it. We got basically the same effect D3 so it all worked out.

Wait, this was D2? What was the point for a massclaim D2? It was obvious that bodyguard would protect Tracker, why out more PRs to confuse the bodyguard? D3 was a muuuuch better time for it, given we were winning there and scum couldn't counterclaim anymore.

We didn't know we were going to lynch scum D2 and be in the that position. The D2 massclaim would have still given us really good PoE.

But scum could counterclaim there. Clearly PRs didn't have a great result they wanted to claim, so why out them? We would be in a worse position regardless of the alignment of who would get lynched D2.

[A Drowned Kernel]

For the D2 massclaim, the relevant PRs didn't come forward, so I figured they had either better info or different opinions than I did and dropped it. We got basically the same effect D3 so it all worked out.

Wait, this was D2? What was the point for a massclaim D2? It was obvious that bodyguard would protect Tracker, why out more PRs to confuse the bodyguard? D3 was a muuuuch better time for it, given we were winning there and scum couldn't counterclaim anymore.

We didn't know we were going to lynch scum D2 and be in the that position. The D2 massclaim would have still given us really good PoE.

But scum could counterclaim there. Clearly PRs didn't have a great result they wanted to claim, so why out them? We would be in a worse position regardless of the alignment of who would get lynched D2.

The idea is that massclaiming would help us lynch scum on that day; it's only retrospect, having lynched scum anyway, that it looks superfluous.

[EFHW]

EFHW, that post's just the next logical step town had to do. Nothing towny or scummy. If you assume Galz is town (which was a fair assumption at the time) then there's no contradictions in his post.

Sorry if you don't like my early celebration of victory, I'm just realizing how bad giving a pass to ADK was and I want to get my awesone towncred back.

How are you going to get your awesome towncred back?

[EFHW]

MiX, are you the vengeful townie?

[A Drowned Kernel]

MiX, are you the vengeful townie?

?!?!?

[EFHW]

I know, doesn't make sense.

[EFHW]

That would reconcile all my reads. You and MiX would be town, Space would be scum. MiX gets lynched, kills Space, town wins. Or you could be vengeful townie.

Grasping at straws.

[EFHW]

No, ADK returned a can't kill result. MiX knows I'm leaning toward voting ADK. So he isn't planning some dramatic denouement.

vote: ADK L-1

[A Drowned Kernel]

Space? Any thoughts?

I guess at this point, it's up to you to convince EFHW. Otherwise, congrats mix.

[MiX]

EFHW, that post's just the next logical step town had to do. Nothing towny or scummy. If you assume Galz is town (which was a fair assumption at the time) then there's no contradictions in his post.

Sorry if you don't like my early celebration of victory, I'm just realizing how bad giving a pass to ADK was and I want to get my awesone towncred back.

How are you going to get your awesome towncred back?

By "flipping", that is, by ADK flipping scum when he dies, proving I'm town.

MiX, are you the vengeful townie?

If I was I would've self-voted, faster that way.

That would reconcile all my reads. You and MiX would be town, Space would be scum. MiX gets lynched, kills Space, town wins. Or you could be vengeful townie.

Grasping at straws.

Let it be known that this is the precise moment when EFHW's sanity perished.

No, ADK returned a can't kill result. MiX knows I'm leaning toward voting ADK. So he isn't planning some dramatic denouement.

vote: ADK L-1

I almost forgot you're a PR with information. Well, thanks for the vote.

Space? Any thoughts?

I guess at this point, it's up to you to convince EFHW. Otherwise, congrats mix.

Excellent game ADK, well played.


Deadline's in 6 hours right?

[A Drowned Kernel]

We have 14 more hours here

[MiX]

We have 14 more hours here

Oh cool. Guess we have time for Space's input then.

[SpaceAnemone]

Sorry... I started my big read-through hours ago, but then got distracted trying to tick lots of things off my todo list since I have a free day. I realise I have been terrible this game :-(

Anyway, I haven't finished the big re-read, but I'll post the stuff I wrote as preamble before starting it now, just to let you guys know I'm still here:

MiX is behaving quite differently to the other game I played with him. I think that's a really good thing! But it also tells me that he's quickly adaptive, so if we're in a situation where we know we have a dveious bussy scum, I just think the chances are higher that it's him rather than ADK. Though I don't know ADK particularly well. EFHW, given that there's recently-unearthed footage showing that you may have met ADK in person, do you have more of a read on his personality with respect to deviousness?

Okay, now my paranoia is out of the way, I feel like I should do a complete re-read of ADK with a view to scumreading him, in case I can just agree with EFHW, because she's clearly sunk more time into this game than I have, so it would be foolish of me not to trust her.

[SpaceAnemone]

Also, if the deadline is 10.30pm tonight Forum Time, that 03.30 tomorrow my time, and I will be asleep. Worst case scenario, I'm still here in 1.5 hours trying to figure things out.

[MiX]

Sorry... I started my big read-through hours ago, but then got distracted trying to tick lots of things off my todo list since I have a free day. I realise I have been terrible this game :-(

Well technically that allowed you to live, so it can't be that bad, right? Although I have to agree with this, mostly because PRs targetted you a lot.

MiX is behaving quite differently to the other game I played with him. I think that's a really good thing! But it also tells me that he's quickly adaptive, so if we're in a situation where we know we have a dveious bussy scum, I just think the chances are higher that it's him rather than ADK. Though I don't know ADK particularly well. EFHW, given that there's recently-unearthed footage showing that you may have met ADK in person, do you have more of a read on his personality with respect to deviousness?

We have bussy scum, but do we have devious bussy scum? I don't think scum bussed a lot after D1, and even then they protected ADK a lot that day. Also, thank you, and remember last game I was SK so being different doesn't mean anything too specific here.

[SpaceAnemone]

We have bussy scum, but do we have devious bussy scum? I don't think scum bussed a lot after D1, and even then they protected ADK a lot that day. Also, thank you, and remember last game I was SK so being different doesn't mean anything too specific here.

There are loads of examples of bussing after D1! Why would you even think it's worth making the statement that you don't think they bussed much after D1?

1) You and ADK were both voting Swan in D2, so that's guaranteed bussing there.

2) Chairs bussed Swan right up to his lynch on D2.

3) You and ADK were both voting Chairs D3, so someone was bussing.

One big voting pattern difference between you and ADK is that you and Chairs voted for each other on D4, whereas ADK didn't cast a single vote that day. I feel like that's kind of a show of you and Chairs bussing each other. To me, that feels at least as likely as it would be for ADK just to have floated off, leaving his buddy to get lynched without even cashing in on it (in what we already know is a high-bussing game), or even voting somewhere else.

[MiX]

We have bussy scum, but do we have devious bussy scum? I don't think scum bussed a lot after D1, and even then they protected ADK a lot that day. Also, thank you, and remember last game I was SK so being different doesn't mean anything too specific here.

There are loads of examples of bussing after D1! Why would you even think it's worth making the statement that you don't think they bussed much after D1?

1) You and ADK were both voting Swan in D2, so that's guaranteed bussing there.

2) Chairs bussed Swan right up to his lynch on D2.

3) You and ADK were both voting Chairs D3, so someone was bussing.

One big voting pattern difference between you and ADK is that you and Chairs voted for each other on D4, whereas ADK didn't cast a single vote that day. I feel like that's kind of a show of you and Chairs bussing each other. To me, that feels at least as likely as it would be for ADK just to have floated off, leaving his buddy to get lynched without even cashing in on it (in what we already know is a high-bussing game), or even voting somewhere else.

There's bussing, and there's bussing a lot. Scum!MiX scenario has a lot more bussing, relatively speaking, so for me scum didn't bus THAT much. Besides, the bus that did happen was pretty low risk, either scum was flipping already or they defended them afterwards.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Just a heads up, space, unless EFHW changes her vote then I'm getting lynched no matter what.

(Also I'm a they if you don't mind)

[MiX]

Just a heads up, space, unless EFHW changes her vote then I'm getting lynched no matter what.

(Also I'm a they if you don't mind)

Gotta love plurality lynch! Technically won us the game by getting Joseph (although I think I could hammer him? forgot) so I can't hate it too much.

[SpaceAnemone]

Also I'm a they if you don't mind

Ah, very sorry! I will do better!

[SpaceAnemone]

As for votes, yes, at this point unless EFHW changes her vote, then ADK is lynched regardless of whether I stay as not voting or put my vote on MiX.

I think if I vote for MiX, that still leaves the ball in EFHW's court, but means that she can switch over to hammer MiX if she happens to have a change of heart, right?

The advantage of doing that is that EFHW will be awake much later than I am, and therefore it maximises our flexibility. The disadvantage is that it kind of dumps everything on EFHW, whereas I'd like to have been able to bring myself to agree with her and present a united front. That would have been a more satisfying ending, especially if we lynch correctly!

[A Drowned Kernel]

Also I'm a they if you don't mind

Ah, very sorry! I will do better!

No worries

[SpaceAnemone]

Also I'm a they if you don't mind

Ah, very sorry! I will do better!

No worries

It's great that there are more "they/them" people around :-)

[SpaceAnemone]

Okay.. here's my slightly edited reread of ADK. Much as I tried to read as if they're scum from the start, I kept reverting to townreading them in all but a handful of posts.

ADK points out at #19 that a scum promoter wouldn't want to risk claiming town promoter in case the traitor flips, so town could treat a claimed promoter as IC. Since already at this point scum knew that the promoter was town, then scum themselves wouldn't have needed to believe in whatever case they put forward for why a scum promoter claiming town wouldn't have been a problem. They would still have needed an excuse that sounded plausible to scumhunting town, though.

At #225 ADK's engaging with Chairs about whether a scum promoter can safely fake-claim. Again, if they're both scum, it's a neat setup in that they know there's no scum promoter already so it's a safe hypothetical, and a good way to interact. It does also show that ADK has been able to let their belief about how safe it is for a scum promoter to claim to be seen to have evolved since what they posted in the earlier game, though.. I feel like as scum it's easier to make up one narrative and stick to it.

At #327 they're questioning mcmc's scumread on MiX... is that just to discredit mcmc and keep MiX around for a later mislynch, or is that genuine scum-hunting on ADK's part?

Okay, I could finally believe at #429 that ADK mentioning that they find Chairs scummy for jumping on faust's ADK-case could be part of a bussing strategy because that section feels a little clunky.

I feel like I should have something to say about #545 because it's a moderately long post. Why does scum!ADK need to try to distract from the MiX wagon? At that point, there's just been a vote count, ADK is not voting, and MiX os in 5 voets to ADK's 4, with 8 to lynch. I feel like scum would be more okay with a MiX vote there.

They're still allegedly townreading MiX at #708. And at #727 they say they've reread some of MiX's posts and are convinced he's town. I guess "we discussed it in the scum QT and decided that MiX was a good mislynch to save for later on, so didn't want to push him this early" is less snappy a justification.

#790 "1) If mix is town there's no motivation for them to claim and stop you from picking him 2) If mix is scum this irrevocably ties galz and mix together, and if one of them is caught the other one does. It's a huge risk just to stop you from picking mix, when it's pretty clear that if you did pick mix, you would be the one lynched anyway." -- this feels like an important observation coming from someone who's now in a 1v1 with MiX in a scenario where Galz was town. If ADK is scum, isn't it giving unnecessary towncred to MiX at this point?

At #838 ADK says "At this point we know the setup", which would be kind of a scumslip if they're scum. I feel like their response to it, on Ari pointing out that Galz could still be scum!promoter, was pretty natural and not like someone caught in a slip.

ADK calls for a massclaim at #879. I remember seeing that and being surprised we could get such good PoE at the time, but not being sure it was better than playing normally. So it could have been a cunning plot by scum to out all our PRs because they were starting to feel a bit cornered.

Urgh.. big wall to pick my way through at #951. At least I'm almost 2/3 of the way through the full set of posts. Actually the take-home is that ADK's pivoting to favour a Joth lynch over a Swan lynch. Yeah, that's scummy-looking in hindsight at least :-)

At #1169 they're quick to believe my vengeful townie claim. Could scum have used EFHW's result to paint me in a worse light, like by implying that maybe the "real" vengeful townie just didn't want to claim yet? Especially since we'd already had that with another PR earlier in the game.

They're pushing the Chairs lynch at #1444, and also townreading MiX some more.

At #1448 there's this: "they might feel like their only real hope is to go quiet and let people paranoid-talk themselves into switching to mix". Yeah, this is pretty much me, paranoidly scumreading MiX :-P

Case on MiX at #1592. It all sounds reasonable, though it does start to gain a slight air of grasping-at-straws in the D4 section on why MiX chose to challenge Chairs over gkrieg.

So I guess the thing to do is to go into MiX's choice there, if that's the really critical thing. That can get its own post.

[SpaceAnemone]

D4 started with 8 players: chairs, jotheonah, MiX, A Drowned Kernel, gkrieg13, Galzria, SpaceAnemone, EFHW

MiX was promoted.
Galz was the outed prob!town promoter.
EFHW and I were ICs by being un-counterclaimed PRs.
Joth was prob!towb because he'd successfully picked a scum to challenge in D2.
MiX's story at that point was that ADK was prob!lynchee, and that the scumteam had to be gkrieg/chairs

So could MiX have challenge gkrieg? ADK's argument was that no, he couldn't safely have done it.

Scenario A: MiX challenges gkrieg, MiX loses, and is killed off as scum. Only the lurker Chairs remains in the scum-team, and he's the apparent next lynch, so that's kind of game over.

Scenario B: MiX challenges gkrieg and wins, but gkrieg flips town. Lynchpool for the next day is ADK, Chairs, MiX and possibly Galz. (Where did Joth go from ADK's reckoning here?)

Scenario B1: MiX is summarily lynched for picking a townie to challenge. This seems unfair, because town!MiX would have had no information to go on, and there was no reason to expect an exact 1-v-1 between MiX and whomever he'd selected on D4.

Scenario B2: Consensus moves to challenge Chairs, going back to the argument at the start of D4 that gkrieg and Chairs were the two most likely scums.

Scenario B3: Town is led along to another mislynch instead. This would have to be ADK, Joth or Galz by this point, I think.

So if ADK is scum, then they're trying to point out that scum!MiX had no good way out in the scenarios above, and had to avoid this decision tree because all the options A, B1, B2 and B3 are bad for scum, or too unlikely. Of course, B3 is the ideal scenario for scum. Would scum!MiX definitely have decided it was too risky, and taken the towncred for picking Chairs instead? It's true that MiX's professed townreads weren't very compatible with steering the game towards lynching e..g ADK or Joth at that point, but did it look as hopeless as the picutre ADK painted? I feel like maybe it did, or could have done.

I really should just vote MiX, go to sleep, and wake up when it's all over :-P

[SpaceAnemone]

Meh.. none of you three is showing as online right now, and I'm way past bedtime.

Vote: MiX

EFHW, I'm sorry to go against you and leave the whole of the final outcome in your hands! I do hope you're right and I'm just too paranoid about MiX :-)

[EFHW]

I'm sticking with ADK.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm sticking with ADK.

Booooooo

[Uncleeurope]

LaLight was gone, leaving Uncleeurope alone in the darkness. He stumbled around in search of meaning.

After yearning for power for so long, and for LaLight to come to some ambiguous form of demise, Uncleeurope only felt empty. Supposedly he should be happy with this ending. After all, LaLight was gone, and Uncleeurope was writing the final piece of flavor. This was the culmination of his life's work.

But it meant nothing.

Everything was so dull.

What did any of it matter?

He couldn't even find a reason for why it didn't matter. Was it because everyone would soon know all he knew? That his power was coming to an end? That his purpose being fulfilled had ripped a hold into his soul that would never be repaired again?

Uncleeurope was confused. He hated being confused.

Uncleeurope looked down, "Hmm, what's this, a poem?"

He picked up a small scrap of paper. The handwriting looked familiar, it must have been left by LaLight.

Purpose is gone, meaning is lost
Knowing is not worth the cost
Power is a frenzied dream
Bought with greed and scheme

Strip these all away from me
Now I am transparency
Goodbye to my sanity
All that's left is clarity

But it wasn't LaLight's writing, even now Uncleeurope was the one writing these words.

He knew what it meant to be a mod.

He knew what he was, now.

He was alone.

Empty words fell out of Uncleeurope's mouth, "A Drowned Kernel the Godfather has been killed...

The game is over, you can all go home, now."

With that, Uncleeurope set off to find LaLight.

Town wins

[jotheonah]

1. That was beautiful

2. We won! Hooray!

3. I can’t believe MiX was town.

[Galzria]

1. That was beautiful

2. We won! Hooray!

3. I can’t believe MiX was town.

Nyah Nyah! 

Well done sticking to your guns on that EFHW!

[SpaceAnemone]

EFHW, you are awesome!! :-)

[MiX]

That was one of the coolest games I've ever played, being the center of attention all game, trying to act super super towny knowing that my survival would determine town's victory...I can't believe we won!

Excellent game by ADK, but now I need to ask: who WAS Lynchee? I must know!

The flavour's a beautiful mess, I loved it.

This wasn't exactly a great game to test this setup, given the fun part died D1, regardless it seems pretty even if the third-party lives longer.

QTs please?

[EFHW]

Yay!

[MiX]

Yay!

Thank you for believing in me!

[A Drowned Kernel]

1. That was beautiful

2. We won! Hooray!

3. I can’t believe MiX was town.

Should have kept you alive, then.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Eddie, how interested are you in ever running this setup again?

[LaLight]

speccy
mod
scum

Congrats town for winning! I will leave a choice for MVP to Eddie, and I also liked a setup very much. Feel free to share individual QTs.

In other news, I am probably disappearing from forum for quite some time, have fun here!

[A Drowned Kernel]

Galz is my vote for mvp

[WestCoastDidds]

speccy
mod
scum

Congrats town for winning! I will leave a choice for MVP to Eddie, and I also liked a setup very much. Feel free to share individual QTs.

In other news, I am probably disappearing from forum for quite some time, have fun here!

LaLi, you will be missed!

[jotheonah]

So I was the lynchee?

[jotheonah]

In other news, I am probably disappearing from forum for quite some time, have fun here!

 

[Uncleeurope]

Eddie, how interested are you in ever running this setup again?

Very interested, especially if other people are interested. (Although I think I want to fiddle a bit first)

I might try opening another game soonish if there are no objections.

That being said, any input about this setup would be greatly appreciated.


Huge props to LaLight for stepping up and helping me out. I feel confident enough to try a game solo now.

And I had fun just winging the flavor with him. The fact that he was willing to just go with me on this was hugely enjoyable.

So I was the lynchee?

Correct.

Galz is my vote for mvp

Fine, but not without handing you accolades upon accolades for taking a scum loss and making it as close as you did. You played very well.

That being said, Galzria not only used his ability successfully twice, (technically three times) he also was the first person to start poking the ADK Lynchee theory IIRC. Very solid play.

Galzria is MVP

[MiX]

The setup kinda has a problem: the horizontal setups are more town-favoured than the vertical ones. That and apparently Psychologist combos with Tracker which is something I completely missed.

That being said, Galzria not only used his ability successfully twice, (technically three times) he also was the first person to start poking the ADK Lynchee theory IIRC. Very solid play.

Galzria is MVP

Not sure how much you can credit Galzria for promoting town that picked correctly, but I do agree he played the best regardless.

[Uncleeurope]

Not sure how much you can credit Galzria for promoting town that picked correctly, but I do agree he played the best regardless.

That's the benefit of being mod, I can give all the credit. (He also voted correctly in both cases despite his initial feelings.)

[EFHW]

I think this was a great setup. I do agree that scum was underpowered in this instance, though. I would have preferred deadlines to have been shortened once a challenge was made.

[EFHW]

Did everyone forget about traitor in assuming gkrieg would have been IC?

I also have an aversion to doing whatever faust tells me to.

[EFHW]

Come back soon, Lalight!

[SpaceAnemone]

In other news, I am probably disappearing from forum for quite some time, have fun here![/color][/b]

I hope that means that good things are afoot in the real world :-)
<3

[SpaceAnemone]

Galz is my vote for mvp

EFHW is my MVP and personal saviour!

[MiX]

Galz is my vote for mvp

EFHW is my MVP and personal saviour!

Oh please, I knew you would vote ADK if EFHW wasn't doing so already...

...Right?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Eddie, how interested are you in ever running this setup again?

Very interested, especially if other people are interested. (Although I think I want to fiddle a bit first)

Well as other people have said, this option in particular (and possibly some of the other ones) was pretty rough on scum, I think there should be some consideration to making claims less IC-making, giving scum some defense against the PRs, and/or making the investigation results less reliable.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Oh, and good game, everyone. Reading the speccy I do feel validated in my choice of galz for the kill on that last night.

[Uncleeurope]

Eddie, how interested are you in ever running this setup again?

Very interested, especially if other people are interested. (Although I think I want to fiddle a bit first)

Well as other people have said, this option in particular (and possibly some of the other ones) was pretty rough on scum, I think there should be some consideration to making claims less IC-making, giving scum some defense against the PRs, and/or making the investigation results less reliable.

thanks for the input, I am in the process of attempting ot recap the game and send my thoughts to Snow. When he gets a chance the two of us will battle it out and we will come up with something.

After that I want to throw up another game with this, I think.

I had another setup idea that I could finalize and do instead though, if people want a break from this.