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Author Topic: Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players  (Read 869 times)

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UmbrageOfSnow

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Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players
« on: February 26, 2019, 08:49:31 pm »

Bread and Circuses
by Umbrageofsnow and Uncleeurope

   1 Goon + 5 VTs   
|
                  C                 
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              D             


      A                   
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      Supersaint Jester       
Macho 2-shot Cop
Semi-Elite Bodyguard
VT
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Mafia 1-shot BP Traitor
Mafia Odd-Night Promoter
VT
Semi-Elite Bodyguard


      B                   
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Mafia Godfather
Mafia Goon
Town Odd-Night Promoter
Semi-Elite Bodyguard
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       Lyncher Doctor
       Vengeful Townie
       Psychologist
       Tracker

Additional Rules:
  • Plurality Lynch
  • Traitor knows Mafia, Mafia doesn’t know traitor, dies if night-killed
  • Traitor is guilty to cop, innocent to Psychologist (until the night it inherits the NK)
  • Traitor inherits the night kill if other mafia are all dead
  • Psychologist is slightly non-standard: it's result occurs before the night's kill
  • Promoter can self-target
  • Promoter turns a player into a compulsive gladiator the next day.
  • The player who has become a gladiator will be announced at the start of each day.
  • Vengeful can only target on-wagon
  • Bodyguards protect from kills, not death, so if 2 Bodyguards protect each other and one is killed, the other dies
  • Bodyguard can protect from Vengeful/Supersaint kills, which happen the following night.
  • If 2 Bodyguards target the same player and that player would die, both die, but they kill the attacker.
  • This doesn't work on the Cop.
  • The Vengeful Townie is capable of performing a kill to the Psychologist
  • Jester cannot self-hammer
  • Lyncher can self-doctor
  • Lyncher's target will be one of the VTs

The setup is one of 4, either a column or a row of the above table, and then 1 Mafia Goon and 5 VTs are added
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 02:59:59 pm by UmbrageOfSnow »
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Open Setup
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2019, 08:50:29 pm »

Role PMs

Quote from: Supersaint Jester
After you are lynched you will kill the last player on your wagon at the end of the Night.

You win if you are lynched before the end of the game. Your lynch does not end the game. You may vote for yourself, but if your vote would be the final vote required for your lynch it will not count.

Quote from: Lyncher Doctor
Each night you may target one player (possibly yourself) to protect them from one kill attempt.

Your target is {Player}, you know they are a VT.
You win if your target is lynched while you are still alive.

When your target dies you also die.



Quote from: Mafia Goon
Your only weapons are your voice and your vote. Also your factional night kill. Each night, one member of your team with access to your team QT may target a player to attempt to kill them.
You may talk to your partner(s) at night here.

You win when at least half of the players left alive are members of the Mafia.

Quote from: Mafia Godfather
If you are investigated by the cop, they will be told you are town-aligned.

Each night, one member of your team with access to your team QT may target a player to attempt to kill them.
You may talk to your partners at night here.

You win when at least half of the players left alive are members of the Mafia.

Quote from: Mafia 1-shot Bulletproof Traitor
Your teammates are {Player} and {Player}, but they do not know you.

If both of your teammates die, you inherit access to their team QT and their ability to target a player to attempt to kill each night.

You will survive the first time you would be killed at night.

You win when at least half of the players left alive are members of the Mafia.

Quote from: Mafia Multitasking Compulsive Odd-Night Promoter
Each odd-numbered night, you must nominate one player (possibly yourself) to enter a fight the next day. If you don't make a selection, one will be made for you at random. On the following day, your target must submit Challenge: {Playername} in bold in the game thread before 72 hours have passed. Otherwise a Challenger will be chosen at random. All votes will be reset, and for the rest of the Day only votes for one of the combatants will be accepted.

Each night, one member of your team with access to your team QT may target a player to attempt to kill them. You may attempt the kill and Promote a fight on the same night.
You may talk to your partner at night here.

You win when at least half of the players left alive are members of the Mafia.



Quote from: Town Compulsive Odd-Night Promoter
Each odd-numbered night, you must nominate one player (possibly yourself) to enter a fight the next day. If you don't make a selection, one will be made for you at random. On the following day, your target must submit Challenge: {Playername} in bold in the game thread before 72 hours have passed. Otherwise a Challenger will be chosen at random. All votes will be reset, and for the rest of the Day only votes for one of the combatants will be accepted.

You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Quote from: Semi-Elite Bodyguard
Each night you may target a player other than yourself to protect. If that player would be killed, they survive and you die instead.

If you and another Bodyguard both protect the same player, if you die for your target, together the two of you will also kill the attacker. This counts as one kill attempt.

You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Quote from: Vengeful Townie
After you are lynched you may target a player on your wagon, you kill that player at the end of the Night.

You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Quote from: Macho 2-shot Cop
Twice per game, you may use one of your shots at night to target a player to investigate. You will receive a result of “{Player} is town-aligned” or “{Player} is not town-aligned.”

If you would otherwise die at night and are protected by a Bodyguard, you will die anyway and the Bodyguard will survive.

You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Quote from: Psychologist
Each night you may target a player to investigate. You will receive a result of “Can Kill” if they are capable of killing a player at night but have not yet done so. If they cannot kill, or if they have already killed someone, you will receive a result of “Cannot Kill.” This investigation resolves before the night’s kill.

You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Quote from: Tracker
Each night you may target a player to track. You will get the names of any player they targeted or “{Player} did not visit anyone.”

You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Quote from: Vanilla Townie
Your only weapons are your voice and your vote.
You win when all Mafia are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 06:25:06 pm by UmbrageOfSnow »
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Open Setup
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2019, 08:53:20 pm »

Comments and breaking strategies welcome. I'm not sure when but I think the two of us are going run this or something similar to it.
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arishipshape

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Open Setup
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2019, 09:16:07 pm »

/in
Looks cool, my life schedule gives me juuuust enough time to actually play good. I sincerely hope I roll town. I won’t be a jerk or an idiot. Intentionally. I’m still a bit of a noob, but I got most of my noob bugs ironed out last game. Good luck and have fun to all!

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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Open Setup
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2019, 09:40:31 pm »

I'm not sure when we're going to run this, there may be someone else who has already called next "normal" setup (I don't think this is weird enough to be an RMM, but it's kind of on the boundary. I was thinking we might make a new thread for the game when we run it and use this thread to discuss the setup. I think/hope this would be a setup worth running more than once, although it's certainly more samey than Asher++, for example.

Anyway, we'll count you as /in when we run it, hoping that will be soon.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 12:04:38 am by UmbrageOfSnow »
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2019, 01:13:22 am »

Can the jester self-vote? If so then I think that makes the supersaint ability pointless.
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faust

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2019, 01:36:30 am »

I don't think I would play a game where Jester is an option.

Also, this is not an open setup since it is not certain which roles are in. It would be classified as semi-open.

The Gladiators are kind of cute, but I find it hard to see a situation where town would want to use them, so I doubt they will have an impact beyond being named roles. Which is sad since the setup seems to be built around the Gladiator power.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2019, 01:25:02 pm »

Can the jester self-vote? If so then I think that makes the supersaint ability pointless.

Great point, we just made it so the Jester can't self-hammer but can still self-vote as long as it isn't the hammer.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2019, 01:32:10 pm »

I don't think I would play a game where Jester is an option.

Also, this is not an open setup since it is not certain which roles are in. It would be classified as semi-open.

The Gladiators are kind of cute, but I find it hard to see a situation where town would want to use them, so I doubt they will have an impact beyond being named roles. Which is sad since the setup seems to be built around the Gladiator power.

Supersaint Jester being 50% possible but not guaranteed was actually the original idea Uncleeurope suggested and then we tossed around other roles that played with that. I do agree, at this point the Gladiators are the heart of the setup to me.

I do feel Jester is non-bastard if it's public information that a Jester exists or exists with known probability. I also understand why you'd hate playing with a Jester, and that's another reason I think unannounced Jesters ought to count as bastard.

I'm at that stage where I look at it and think it's town-sided, and then look at it and think it's scum-sided and usually that means I'm in the vicinity of balance but I do want to sit down and do a bit more actual simulating results (by hand, but playing out hypothetical games.) That said, I was wondering about adding 2 more VTs, which would make it harder to fill, a big downside with a game type that certainly isn't to everyone's taste, but would also make the town gladiators more relevant I think, and punish scum less for shooting VTs in a way that might not townside it as much as adding 2 more town normally would.

3rd parties and known numbers of PRs really mess with this stuff.

Also, we were debating this earlier, but what do people think of the setup name?
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arishipshape

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2019, 07:49:23 pm »

Also, we were debating this earlier, but what do people think of the setup name?
I have no idea where the bread comes in, but I assume the jester is a part of the circus theme?
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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2019, 08:14:37 pm »

Also, we were debating this earlier, but what do people think of the setup name?
I have no idea where the bread comes in, but I assume the jester is a part of the circus theme?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses
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arishipshape

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2019, 09:57:32 pm »

Amazing title. 10/10
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faust

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2019, 02:26:07 am »

Also, we were debating this earlier, but what do people think of the setup name?
It's not the Latin original, I have to subtract points for that.
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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2019, 08:35:04 am »

I like bread.
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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2019, 02:27:35 pm »

I am also rather more fond of bread than circuses
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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2019, 03:35:24 pm »

cool.
/in
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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2019, 03:26:27 pm »

I am also rather more fond of bread than circuses

I'm not sure that I trust those who prefer circuses, as opposed to bread, at all.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2019, 09:26:20 pm »

Revising this to make the town gladiator idea more relevant, quoting my old PM text in case I want to use it again later.

Quote from: Mafia 1-shot Gladiator
Once per game, you may type Challenge: {Playername} in bold during the day. You may submit this order in your private QT or the main thread. All votes will be reset, and for the rest of the Day only votes for you or your target will be counted. The day's deadline will be reset to 72 hours from the time of your order, rounded to the nearest hour. This power will not work if a Town-aligned player being lynched would result in the game ending, if there are less than 48 hours remaining in the day, or if another Gladiator challenge is already in effect.

Each night, one member of your team with access to your team QT may target a player to attempt to kill them.
You may talk to your partner at night here.

You win when at least half of the players left alive are members of the Mafia.
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arishipshape

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2019, 09:49:27 pm »

I assume the survivors information is so that he can not get on the gladiators bad side? Also, if you were survivor, would outing that be smart? Is survivor pro town? I know survivor can win with maf, so town would kinda sorta want him dead, but survivor could win with town as well, so maf kinda sorta wants him dead. So what does it even out to?
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2019, 09:49:57 pm »

Change summary:

Okay, we invented a new role: Promoter, which is a sort of gladiator-izer, picks a person to become a compulsive gladiator for the next day. And rijiggered the setup a bit. That's still a bit of a work in progress though, but I think this is better.

Survivor is now informed each Even day who, if anyone, was chosen to be a compulsive gladiator.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2019, 09:50:51 pm »

Survivor averages out to pro-scum, but obviously not as strong as having another scumteam member.
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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2019, 08:17:34 am »

So the survivor has information that's good for...72 hours? Since the Gladiators are compulsive? How is that any useful?

Why does Jester have Supersaint? Just to make lynching him feel bad?

It feels like a really weird setup trying out a lot of different things all at once. These are my favourite.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2019, 12:55:09 pm »

It's deliberately a very weird setup, and that's kind of what I was going for with the title anyway. But I do think these abilities/possibilities play together, we spent some time brainstorming stuff that fits in together like this.

Honestly the survivor doesn't need much help, it's pretty normal not to give the Survivor anything but I liked the idea originally and that information is a holdover from that. It probably wouldn't hurt things to simplify things and just make the Survivor a Survivor with nothing else. But the idea was so the Survivor could attempt to subtly buddy the Gladiator.

Jester is super easy to win with in a vacuum, which is a big part of the reason it's an unfun role. Making the Jester a known possibility makes it harder to win with but more fun but also introduces a lot of distraction. And it's effectively a free mislynch for scum. Making lynching the Jester have consequences makes the Jester somewhat more pro-town: people are going to be nervous about hammering and this can help generate reads. Getting lynched won't feel bad to the Jester, but it's going to not be an easy win.

Really Jester would love to be gladiated and that seems like a fun bizarre interaction.
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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2019, 03:19:11 pm »

The fact that the cop can’t distiguish between Jester and Scum is really annoying, since it makes it even more attractive for scum to fake-claim Jester, which seems like a very strong and not that fun strategy.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: Bread and Circuses: A New Semi-Open Setup for 14 Players
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2019, 03:32:55 pm »

Not sure how much I want to argue with you since that's kind of the point of the idea.

Psychologist also can't distinguish Survivor. But I'm not sure fake-claiming Jester is actually smart. At best it's situational.
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