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[arishipshape]

MiX am I correct you have not been mafia yet on this forum, only town and sk.

MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation. He is pushing and doing things that are anti town but also not from some misguided town perspective. This yea I was wrong is very sloppy and not something town MiX is likely to do (make such a poor play in the first place, not the fact that he admitted it was a poor play)

Also I really think he’s scum trying to prompt and provide a method of he traitor to claim promoter and reveal himself to mafia. Which I think people don’t understand how good of a move that is for the mafia team.

This is a compelling case and I'm comfortable continuing to vote for MiX.

I would also vote for ari at this point though. The recently posted faust case comes feels manipulative to me. Just dumps a bunch of quotes with no context. For example

If town guesses right and lynches scum, it even increases our chance of lynching scum to 100%.

is held up as an unhelpful quote. But it's not actually. It's a sarcastic way of pointing out a flaw in my argument, which is pretty clear with the context ari failed to provide.
[/quote]
I tried to keep the words to a bare minimum after being called "hard to read". I meant no manipulation: I intended to spark conversation and perhaps get my scum read lynched. What do you think of Fuast refusing to explain his vote?

[MiX]

MiX am I correct you have not been mafia yet on this forum, only town and sk.

You are correct indeed.

MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation. He is pushing and doing things that are anti town but also not from some misguided town perspective. This yea I was wrong is very sloppy and not something town MiX is likely to do (make such a poor play in the first place, not the fact that he admitted it was a poor play)

Also I really think he’s scum trying to prompt and provide a method of he traitor to claim promoter and reveal himself to mafia. Which I think people don’t understand how good of a move that is for the mafia team.

I would never push such a move as scum, unless 2 things happen: we agreed N0 that I would do this plan, and...well I doubt I would just agree to it, but I can't quite put my finger on why...

PPE 4 because I don't have to reply to everything right now.

[Glooble]

What do you think of Fuast refusing to explain his vote?

I think that faust believes that the information that explanation would give to scum outweighs the helpful information it would give to town.

[Joseph2302]

What do you think of Fuast refusing to explain his vote?

I think that faust believes that the information that explanation would give to scum outweighs the helpful information it would give to town.

Seriously faust isn't really seeming scummy

[jotheonah]

First off: Super sorry I didn't get around to this yesterday night like I said I would. My computer kept restarting in the middle of me constructing my posts, and I got tired, so I went to bed. I'm here now. But I'm kinda miffed at the lack of suspicion on me. If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum. Time for me to join the fray!

is the scummiest thing I've ever read. And then there's this:

My thoughts on voting: Why are we voting MiX? Sure, he's not the towniest town to ever town, but I don't see to much scumminess. Anyone wanna explain?

Followed immediately by Mix jumping to ari's defense for my one vote? Guys, get better at being partners.

How is that the scummiest thing you've ever read? It was complete and total transparency and honesty! The unvarnished truth!

This is going to sound dumb, but I have a little mental notebook of scumtells based on my own experiences. One of them is this: Unprompted "if I were scum..." reflections are much more likely to come from scum who thinks they're being clever than from town. Why? Because town isn't thinking about if they were scum. I've found this to be fairly reliable.

Also ari's case on faust is terrible, and faust is definitely town here.

Come join me on the ari wagon, friends!

[jotheonah]

I mean, "definitely town" is strong; faust could be scum, as could anyone. But so far he's reading pretty townie.

[MiX]

So much to go through...faust isn't scummy, ari, your case isn't really a case as it is stating faust's posts...which are pretty towny. Well, faust towny, which means I have no idea what he is.

joth, what's your ari case? And Glooble, why do you like mcmc's case on me?

[jotheonah]

So much to go through...faust isn't scummy, ari, your case isn't really a case as it is stating faust's posts...which are pretty towny. Well, faust towny, which means I have no idea what he is.

joth, what's your ari case? And Glooble, why do you like mcmc's case on me?

two posts up

[arishipshape]

First off: Super sorry I didn't get around to this yesterday night like I said I would. My computer kept restarting in the middle of me constructing my posts, and I got tired, so I went to bed. I'm here now. But I'm kinda miffed at the lack of suspicion on me. If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum. Time for me to join the fray!

is the scummiest thing I've ever read. And then there's this:

My thoughts on voting: Why are we voting MiX? Sure, he's not the towniest town to ever town, but I don't see to much scumminess. Anyone wanna explain?

Followed immediately by Mix jumping to ari's defense for my one vote? Guys, get better at being partners.

How is that the scummiest thing you've ever read? It was complete and total transparency and honesty! The unvarnished truth!

This is going to sound dumb, but I have a little mental notebook of scumtells based on my own experiences. One of them is this: Unprompted "if I were scum..." reflections are much more likely to come from scum who thinks they're being clever than from town. Why? Because town isn't thinking about if they were scum. I've found this to be fairly reliable.

Also ari's case on faust is terrible, and faust is definitely town here.

Come join me on the ari wagon, friends!

I agree, unprompted speculations on "if I were scum" is pretty scummy. When did I do that?

Please enlighten me with reasons, not just saying "his case sucks". Why is my case terrible? Why is Faust so definitely town?
PPE:3

[Joseph2302]

I think ago is trying to be helpful town, even though their case on faust isn't great. Think it may be town/town interaction

[SpaceAnemone]

I really don't like Ari's faust case, but I don't think it's malicious/scummy per se, just a bit of an indication that they're a newbie with little feel for people's meta, or the overall meta of f.ds mafia.

@Ari, hi! I don't think we've played before. Apologies for starting out our interaction with a criticism, but coming into a game with a blunt assertion that it's anti-town not to share everything, while obviously being unaware of the long history of this having been discussed in numerous games before, is a bit naive, and really isn't going to win over many of the vets. Faust is a seasoned player who knows what he's doing. He comes across as weirdly cantankerous sometimes, and economical with his words, but that's not alignment indicative. The only reliable tell I found for him being scum is that if you get into a situation where there's complex logical reasoning, he can sometime spin it the wrong way to cover for himself or his teammates as scum, but obviously won't use the same spin as town. It's not a very frequently-applicable tell :-(

In case it helps give you a framework for thinking about the more meta side of the game works here, consider that any given player, especially vets who've been playing such games with one another for years and years, is probably not thinking only of their win or loss in this one particular game. They've got form, there are things they've done before as scum, and things they've discussed previously with people who were their scum buddies in other games, but who might now be town while they're scum again (or vice versa!), and there are patterns of behaviour that tend to repeat. The pace of innovation in any given direction is limited by how people feel any changes in their behaviour might adversely affect their faction in this game, and also other people's perceptions of them in future games. If you're too ridiculously townie as town and can't emulate it when you're scum, your scum game suffers. If you're too unhelpful or abrasive as a player, people will more happily lynch you off even in your townier games. Players like faust are so ancient they've converged on some kind of an optimum presentation. (I (hope I can) get away with saying this, since I'm more ancient than faust is IRL, even though I'm a relative newbie in f.ds mafia terms, having only been playing mafia here for ~3 years).

PPE 6 or 7: not sure that needed an essay, but there you go :-P

[MiX]

I have a strong urge to dissasociate myself with ari before we both get lynched. Does this mean I think ari's scum?

So much to go through...faust isn't scummy, ari, your case isn't really a case as it is stating faust's posts...which are pretty towny. Well, faust towny, which means I have no idea what he is.

joth, what's your ari case? And Glooble, why do you like mcmc's case on me?

two posts up

Can you quote ari's scummy line?

PPE 1

[jotheonah]

If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum.

[jotheonah]

Reason number one. Unexplained vote.

Not scummy.

Reason number two. General unhelpful-ness.

Definitely not scummy

Finally, I also just get a scummy vibe from him.

Not a case.

[MiX]

Vote: ari

[jotheonah]

Vote: ari

Perfectly timed bus. Well-done.

[MiX]

For the last time (or maybe just second I can't help myself) me and ari have PERFECT SYNERGY and would behave completely differently! Now I wish I got scum...

In all seriousness, joth just pointed out the non-existence of ari's case, which I think is towny (for joth) and points out...well, how ridiculous ari is. The problem is that in his scum game, he was completely different...but I need to sit down and think about my reads and I haven't done that yet so this feels okay.

[arishipshape]

I really don't like Ari's faust case, but I don't think it's malicious/scummy per se, just a bit of an indication that they're a newbie with little feel for people's meta, or the overall meta of f.ds mafia.

@Ari, hi! I don't think we've played before. Apologies for starting out our interaction with a criticism, but coming into a game with a blunt assertion that it's anti-town not to share everything, while obviously being unaware of the long history of this having been discussed in numerous games before, is a bit naive, and really isn't going to win over many of the vets. Faust is a seasoned player who knows what he's doing. He comes across as weirdly cantankerous sometimes, and economical with his words, but that's not alignment indicative. The only reliable tell I found for him being scum is that if you get into a situation where there's complex logical reasoning, he can sometime spin it the wrong way to cover for himself or his teammates as scum, but obviously won't use the same spin as town. It's not a very frequently-applicable tell :-(

In case it helps give you a framework for thinking about the more meta side of the game works here, consider that any given player, especially vets who've been playing such games with one another for years and years, is probably not thinking only of their win or loss in this one particular game. They've got form, there are things they've done before as scum, and things they've discussed previously with people who were their scum buddies in other games, but who might now be town while they're scum again (or vice versa!), and there are patterns of behaviour that tend to repeat. The pace of innovation in any given direction is limited by how people feel any changes in their behaviour might adversely affect their faction in this game, and also other people's perceptions of them in future games. If you're too ridiculously townie as town and can't emulate it when you're scum, your scum game suffers. If you're too unhelpful or abrasive as a player, people will more happily lynch you off even in your townier games. Players like faust are so ancient they've converged on some kind of an optimum presentation. (I (hope I can) get away with saying this, since I'm more ancient than faust is IRL, even though I'm a relative newbie in f.ds mafia terms, having only been playing mafia here for ~3 years).

PPE 6 or 7: not sure that needed an essay, but there you go :-P

Greetings. Bring on the criticism, it's pro town play. Thank you for the advice and context. I will keep it in mind. Unvote.

If I were scum I imagine I could just keep shutting up, occasionally doing short posts to keep the "lynch all lurkers" crowd at bay. Lucky for you guys I'm not scum.

This isn't the "if I were scum I wouldn't do this" defense, it was a admonition on everyone else for not addressing my lack of participation. Also, I said I "could" do X action, not I "would". Even after all this, I don't blame anyone who adds on scum points for that. That was a mistake.

Reason number one. Unexplained vote.

Not scummy.

Reason number two. General unhelpful-ness.

Definitely not scummy

Finally, I also just get a scummy vibe from him.

Not a case.

Refusing to provide the town with information is the definition of scummy! What does scum have that town doesn't? Information. The towns goal is to make up for their information deficit. In addition, after the context provided by Space I retracted my vote.

How is refusing to be helpful not scummy?

I didn't include that as a part of the case.

Vote: ari

Seems I'm on the lynch wagon faster than last game. MiX, I now know how you felt.

[Glooble]

And Glooble, why do you like mcmc's case on me?

Short version is the narrative of you as scum trying to subtly communicate with the traitor made a lot of sense to me. But now I'm rereading you for the sake of completeness and trying to support that read with evidence.

Not sure it's negative utility...I believe It's crucial to corner scum D2, provided Promoter has good reads. However, it depends on the Promoter and their target's reads a tad bit too much...but remember that it can't be (easily) influenced by scum. Overall I like the idea of claiming.

Apologies: when I said lay low, I meant exploit your newness to its full extent. Multiple bandwagons are absolutely town: just look how Promoter is negative utility precisely because it limits our options to two people. Also, you've seen town!Joseph do the exact same, yet you think it means they're more likely to be scum: why? I also believe town should be able to lie sometimes, it's sometimes useful and can blow the game wide open if they do it correctly.

What are your opinions on the current setup talk, that is, Promoter claim?

Bolding mine... this is a weird contradiction given that these posts are back-to-back.

If we have a mafia promoter the mafia traitor could claim promoter to signify to the mafia they exist and they know there is no town promoter.

Here is where mcmc suggests a traitor could claim promoter. I missed that this idea was initially suggested by mcmc I had been thinking MiX had said it first. MiX picks up on it here:

He's also right in that scum!Promoter won't claim and instead Traitor will, there's just no reason for them to claim.

Anyway the thing about this line is I don't think it's obvious. Remember the traitor has not had any time to talk to the other scum. Maybe it occurs to them to claim promoter, maybe it doesn't. But once mcmc says that, then it essentially becomes true. So it's strategically great for scum, but the traitor might not think to do it until mcmc suggests it. On the other hand once town is aware of the possibility the utility goes down (promoter isn't "pseudo IC" anymore.) So is mcmc scummy for pointing it out? COuld go either way. Is MiX scummy for acknowledging mcmc's logic then continuing to push for the claim? I think he is.

Sorry if that paragraph was a little obtuse, I just don't know how to state it more succinctly.

PPE 9

[jotheonah]

Refusing to provide the town with information is the definition of scummy! What does scum have that town doesn't? Information. The towns goal is to make up for their information deficit. In addition, after the context provided by Space I retracted my vote.

How is refusing to be helpful not scummy?

Let me turn that around for you: What does scum gain by being obviously unhelpful? Scum players want to be helpful; their helpfulness is just leading town down the wrong path. Wanton, willful unhelpfulness usually comes from town. Or Awaclus.

Second, let me disabuse you of the notion that town is a big happy family working together to solve a problem. We are a big happy family working together to solve a problem -- with a small happy family embedded in us that is working to stop the problem from being solved. If we adopt a philosophy of "everyone shares everything all the time", that helps scum, not town. Sometimes town players keep things to themselves for some period of town. It's actually the only way we can counteract the information asymmetry. Automatically giving all the information we have to town (and therefore also to scum) just furthers it.

[jotheonah]

For the record:

My case on ari = fully serious

My runner about Mix and Ari being partners = 60 percent serious, 40 percent messing with MiX

[arishipshape]

Refusing to provide the town with information is the definition of scummy! What does scum have that town doesn't? Information. The towns goal is to make up for their information deficit. In addition, after the context provided by Space I retracted my vote.

How is refusing to be helpful not scummy?

Let me turn that around for you: What does scum gain by being obviously unhelpful? Scum players want to be helpful; their helpfulness is just leading town down the wrong path. Wanton, willful unhelpfulness usually comes from town. Or Awaclus.

Second, let me disabuse you of the notion that town is a big happy family working together to solve a problem. We are a big happy family working together to solve a problem -- with a small happy family embedded in us that is working to stop the problem from being solved. If we adopt a philosophy of "everyone shares everything all the time", that helps scum, not town. Sometimes town players keep things to themselves for some period of town. It's actually the only way we can counteract the information asymmetry. Automatically giving all the information we have to town (and therefore also to scum) just furthers it.

Ok. I refuse to help anyone find scum ever again. I'm town now, right? Total unhelpful-ness, of the finest variety. And here, why don't I throw out a random vote for no reason? Vote: Jothenoah

What information (besides PR's, which is why I wanted to wait for a claim before lynching the people that didn't give reasons) does the town have that scum doesn't?

[arishipshape]

After re-reading my last post, that came off harsher than I meant it to be. Sorry.

[Glooble]

So something just occurred to me.

If we have a scum promoter, they want to set up a town v. town scenario. So they want to target a town player who they think will most likely target another town player. In other words, knowing everybody's reads is really, really helpful to them. We might want to keep a little more mum about who we think is town.

[arishipshape]

So something just occurred to me.

If we have a scum promoter, they want to set up a town v. town scenario. So they want to target a town player who they think will most likely target another town player. In other words, knowing everybody's reads is really, really helpful to them. We might want to keep a little more mum about who we think is town.

...That is a fantastic reason. I stand corrected. Unvote