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[faust]

Stating that you'd vote for me in the showdown and then voting for the only person who's voiced support for me? Kind of feels like you're trying to intimidate others into falling in line.

It's a tried and trusted strategy.

But seriously, I mean you know Glooble better than I do. Can you look at his pseudoclaim and say he'd be this thoughtless as town?

[faust]

Also I've stated that I think you're town. I'd just prefer if you targeted someone scummy.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Actually, scratch that, I would vote for joth in that unfortunate scenario. But joth, you should really not pick MiX.

Just out of curiosity, why not?

I reread some of his posts and I'm convinced he's town.

[Glooble]

Honestly, faust, it didn't even occur to me that that comment gave any information away. I've never played a grid-style semi-open setup before.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I have a feeling I know who Lynchee is. Should we talk about it?

No.

[jotheonah]

Stating that you'd vote for me in the showdown and then voting for the only person who's voiced support for me? Kind of feels like you're trying to intimidate others into falling in line.

It's a tried and trusted strategy.

But seriously, I mean you know Glooble better than I do. Can you look at his pseudoclaim and say he'd be this thoughtless as town?

I'm pretty sure Glooble is town here. I wouldn't have interpreted that as a claim either.

[jotheonah]

Also I've stated that I think you're town. I'd just prefer if you targeted someone scummy.

I don't understand where everyone is getting this strong town read on MiX!

How do people feel about ari?

[gkrieg13]

Well at least that means we don't have a jester.

[Glooble]

Well at least that means we don't have a jester.

We've established this.

[Galzria]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

My problem with what Joth is doing here is that he’s essentially out sourcing to find out who he can beat. He’s not looking to choose the player he most likely thinks is scum (something town would be aiming for) but is instead trying to figure out which player he can win against. This is an incredibly scummy approach. If Joth is town, his concern should be putting scum into a 50/50 and then arguing why we should lynch the other person - not petitioning to find out who he can challenge and win against (which gives him the right to cherry pick town players as scum).

[Glooble]

mcmcsalot was definitely town, and is an experienced player, so let's look at his reads, shall we?

He started the case on MiX, based on the belief that MiX was signaling to the traitor. Also, this post, which I don't understand well enough to summarize:

MiX am I correct you have not been mafia yet on this forum, only town and sk.

MiX appears to be playing a game based on a team motivation. He is pushing and doing things that are anti town but also not from some misguided town perspective. This yea I was wrong is very sloppy and not something town MiX is likely to do (make such a poor play in the first place, not the fact that he admitted it was a poor play)

Also I really think he’s scum trying to prompt and provide a method of he traitor to claim promoter and reveal himself to mafia. Which I think people don’t understand how good of a move that is for the mafia team.

Space is towny, so is galz and chairs. I agree with joth about aroshapes post being scummy but I still find him overall towny, maybe I need to reread ari.

Later says he thinks ari is towny and joth slightly scummy for pushing ari.

Then he gets drunk and says Swan is an IC. Make of that what you will.

After the DAMA he votes for Space for wording a post in a confusing (misleading?) way. Note he previously said he found Space towny. I don't buy his argument re: that particular post really at all. It felt to me very in line with Space's town meta.

He analyzes all the votes on MiX and ADK, chides MiX for claiming VT, then says he would vote ADK over ari.

Finally he changes his vote to ADK and his final contribution is this quote, which for the record I don't really understand:

The scrambling is being done by a limited number of people which means MiX is town and scum isn’t helping us consolidate anywhere else

[chairs]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

My problem with what Joth is doing here is that he’s essentially out sourcing to find out who he can beat. He’s not looking to choose the player he most likely thinks is scum (something town would be aiming for) but is instead trying to figure out which player he can win against. This is an incredibly scummy approach. If Joth is town, his concern should be putting scum into a 50/50 and then arguing why we should lynch the other person - not petitioning to find out who he can challenge and win against (which gives him the right to cherry pick town players as scum).

Nailed it. I can’t believe that was staring me in the face and all I could do was go “Joth feels wrong” but couldn’t figure out what was bothering me.

[Glooble]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

Can't currently think of a reason you would say this and not tell us what post you're referring to, given that scum already knows Mix's alignment.

[MiX]

What did you learn from this?

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

My problem with what Joth is doing here is that he’s essentially out sourcing to find out who he can beat. He’s not looking to choose the player he most likely thinks is scum (something town would be aiming for) but is instead trying to figure out which player he can win against. This is an incredibly scummy approach. If Joth is town, his concern should be putting scum into a 50/50 and then arguing why we should lynch the other person - not petitioning to find out who he can challenge and win against (which gives him the right to cherry pick town players as scum).

Nailed it. I can’t believe that was staring me in the face and all I could do was go “Joth feels wrong” but couldn’t figure out what was bothering me.

I could quote Galzria's post directly, but you're such a nice person to quote...what makes you two think that joth is picking "scummy" players instead of "scum" players? That is, players that'll get lynched instead of scum?

[jotheonah]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

My problem with what Joth is doing here is that he’s essentially out sourcing to find out who he can beat. He’s not looking to choose the player he most likely thinks is scum (something town would be aiming for) but is instead trying to figure out which player he can win against. This is an incredibly scummy approach. If Joth is town, his concern should be putting scum into a 50/50 and then arguing why we should lynch the other person - not petitioning to find out who he can challenge and win against (which gives him the right to cherry pick town players as scum).

This is dumb.

I mean, it's not prima facie dumb, but like, my scummiest player read is MiX. I've made this extremely clear. And yet, how is it pro-town for me to choose MiX if that's just going to result in me being lynched? It isn't. In order to use this in a pro-town way, my first priority actually is, and should be, to survive it. Because I'm the only person I know with 100 percent certainty is town. Any course of action that doesn't save me is a losing proposition, regardless of the scumminess of my target.

[MiX]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

My problem with what Joth is doing here is that he’s essentially out sourcing to find out who he can beat. He’s not looking to choose the player he most likely thinks is scum (something town would be aiming for) but is instead trying to figure out which player he can win against. This is an incredibly scummy approach. If Joth is town, his concern should be putting scum into a 50/50 and then arguing why we should lynch the other person - not petitioning to find out who he can challenge and win against (which gives him the right to cherry pick town players as scum).

This is dumb.

I mean, it's not prima facie dumb, but like, my scummiest player read is MiX. I've made this extremely clear. And yet, how is it pro-town for me to choose MiX if that's just going to result in me being lynched? It isn't. In order to use this in a pro-town way, my first priority actually is, and should be, to survive it. Because I'm the only person I know with 100 percent certainty is town. Any course of action that doesn't save me is a losing proposition, regardless of the scumminess of my target.

If you pick town, who cares who dies? You should only care about living if and only if you are sure you picked scum. And I'm town, so obviously you shouldn't pick me, not because I have more support than you, but because...I'm town.

Okay, now I'm interesting in hearing what posts I made confirmed me as town so I can be removed from the pool ASAP.

[jotheonah]

If people would rather I just challenge the player I find scummiest, I'll do it right now. Instead I'm being punished for soliciting town input? Like seriously what the heck? I've been asking everyone for alternative choices and all I get is crickets.

Vote: Galz

Boo.

[faust]

mcmcsalot was definitely town, and is an experienced player, so let's look at his reads, shall we?

So what did you learn?

[jotheonah]

Galz is basically saying this

"Joth is choosing a battle he thinks he can win before starting the battle. That's scummy! He should just choose a battle he wants to win and then try to win it even if he has no chance!"

That's basically the worst possible military strategy.

[MiX]

If people would rather I just challenge the player I find scummiest, I'll do it right now. Instead I'm being punished for soliciting town input? Like seriously what the heck? I've been asking everyone for alternative choices and all I get is crickets.

Vote: Galz

Boo.

I have to agree, I'm sincerely dissapointed in everyone who has simply said who they would vote for if you challenged me. Unfortunatly, I'm not sure who did that (or if anyone actually did that), so maybe I'm just wrong.

mcmcsalot was definitely town, and is an experienced player, so let's look at his reads, shall we?

So what did you learn?

You can't just use my words!

Galz is basically saying this

"Joth is choosing a battle he thinks he can win before starting the battle. That's scummy! He should just choose a battle he wants to win and then try to win it even if he has no chance!"

That's basically the worst possible military strategy.

You'll always have a chance to win versus scum. Or against anyone that's scummy, really. I have 4+ players that I would kill over you and they aren't all scum. Believe in your ICness.

[faust]

I would not vote MiX if he were challenged, as he has said something today that basically proves he’s town.

My problem with what Joth is doing here is that he’s essentially out sourcing to find out who he can beat. He’s not looking to choose the player he most likely thinks is scum (something town would be aiming for) but is instead trying to figure out which player he can win against. This is an incredibly scummy approach. If Joth is town, his concern should be putting scum into a 50/50 and then arguing why we should lynch the other person - not petitioning to find out who he can challenge and win against (which gives him the right to cherry pick town players as scum).

This is dumb.

I mean, it's not prima facie dumb, but like, my scummiest player read is MiX. I've made this extremely clear. And yet, how is it pro-town for me to choose MiX if that's just going to result in me being lynched? It isn't. In order to use this in a pro-town way, my first priority actually is, and should be, to survive it. Because I'm the only person I know with 100 percent certainty is town. Any course of action that doesn't save me is a losing proposition, regardless of the scumminess of my target.

This is perfectly reasonable. I don't think Galz is onto anything there.

[Glooble]

mcmcsalot was definitely town, and is an experienced player, so let's look at his reads, shall we?

So what did you learn?

My reads changed somewhat based on mcmc's reads. Mostly in the direction of finding players I had previously found scummy to be slightly less scummy. Don't really want to say more for previously articulated reasons, but I wanted to draw everyone's attention to his reads so they could draw their own conclusions without doing the work of sifting through all of that themselves.

I would love if someone could explain what mcmc meant by his final post, and why it was enough for him to unvote the player he'd been tunneling all day. Because it's a line of thinking I genuinely don't understand.

[jotheonah]

Alright, I have been jumping the gun here by not actually presenting my case on MiX, so I'm going to do my best to do that.

1) Lots and lots of shameless buddying, which feels off-meta for MiX who is normally a little more petulant and combative (no offense). Yesterday he was seriously buddying ari, today it's me.

2) His initial reaction to his wagon yesterday, flailing around to find another lynch without really presenting a scum case on anyone, advocating essentially for a lurker lynch, felt very scummy to me.

3) I don't find his VT claim remotely vindicating. As far as I'm concerned, it should be the default claim for caught scum. Joseph claimed a powerful role and it didn't save him. MiX claimed VT and it did. He's a smart player and sometimes an orthogonal thinker, he could have figured out how that would go.

4) I am finding his play today consistent with a narrative where scum promoter chose me, expecting me to choose a non-MiX target based on the post I quoted earlier where I basically said I wouldn't choose MiX (with Mix's buddying as a back-up plan to urge this along).

[A Drowned Kernel]

Who's your second choice, after mix?

[MiX]

Alright, I have been jumping the gun here by not actually presenting my case on MiX, so I'm going to do my best to do that.

1) Lots and lots of shameless buddying, which feels off-meta for MiX who is normally a little more petulant and combative (no offense). Yesterday he was seriously buddying ari, today it's me.

2) His initial reaction to his wagon yesterday, flailing around to find another lynch without really presenting a scum case on anyone, advocating essentially for a lurker lynch, felt very scummy to me.

3) I don't find his VT claim remotely vindicating. As far as I'm concerned, it should be the default claim for caught scum. Joseph claimed a powerful role and it didn't save him. MiX claimed VT and it did. He's a smart player and sometimes an orthogonal thinker, he could have figured out how that would go.

4) I am finding his play today consistent with a narrative where scum promoter chose me, expecting me to choose a non-MiX target based on the post I quoted earlier where I basically said I wouldn't choose MiX (with Mix's buddying as a back-up plan to urge this along).

1) I buddied ari D1 when I was town too. Also, I promised I would change my agressive ways, and this is that result.

2) Wouldn't it be much easier for me to present a case...?

3) This is a funny scenario, but as scum, I represent a whole team: I can't just do crazy gambits, especially in my first game, I would feel like I betrayed my own team if I failled. Claiming VT actually breaks every meta because it's incredibly anti-town and I would never do it...but I did. Also I technically lived because of it, so in the context of this game (and hindsight 20/20) it was acceptable. I hope.

4) Why would I buddy you...? Much easier for me to double down on my scumread and face you head on.

Other than the first, these are actually bad defenses...oh well, why should I care? They're the best here.