Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3  All

Author Topic: the possession errata is the worst thing to happen to dominion in ages  (Read 16555 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

funkdoc

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 472
  • Respect: +414
    • View Profile
+9

so i love the 2nd edition sets, the masquerade errata, and most of empires.  these recent changes have been wonderful for the game!  but there is one recent change i have come to despise...

possession has always been the least fun card in all of dominion when it's good (who *doesn't* love trashing their deck down to nothing and reaching a stalemate?), but now it's good way more often.  in fact, i would rank it only behind scrying pool among the potion cards now, and i'm not even sure about that.  remember when it always used to be below university & golem?

the main problem is that the recent errata have killed most of the viable counters to it.  now you only have a few strategies that hinge on specific cards, like beggar-gardens.  i get why they had to change the rules for debt, but changing VP tokens was a hugely unnecessary buff.  goons or bishop engines used to make possession skippable, but now they can work together to make games extra miserable!

with the general engine buffs in empires (hellooooooooo, city quarter!), possession was going to become stronger anyway.  the rule change combined with this has made it the only card i've seen level 60+ players want to ban in random matching.  i may follow suit soon!

donald, i've got mad love for ya, but i really am not understanding this right now.  it's the biggest damper on a game that otherwise keeps getting better and better.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 07:43:07 pm by funkdoc »
Logged

McGarnacle

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1090
  • Shuffle iT Username: McGarnacle
  • So, ya like doughnuts, eh?
  • Respect: +641
    • View Profile
0

I agree. I think it was a strange change.
Logged
This is exactly the kind of deep analysis I come to f.ds for. 

Forum Mafia Record
Town 1/2 50%
Scum 0/0

Seprix

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5607
  • Respect: +3681
    • View Profile
0

#banPossession

I even did the code initcap where the first word isn't capitalized, so you can't get angry at me for using a hashtag.
Logged
DM me for ideas on a new article, either here or on Discord (I check Discord way more often)

ThetaSigma12

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1681
  • Shuffle iT Username: ThetaSigma12
  • Respect: +1813
    • View Profile
+5

Possession has always sucked FYI.
Logged
My magnum opus collection of dominion fan cards is available here!

pacovf

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3500
  • Multiediting poster
  • Respect: +3839
    • View Profile
+2

Making it so that you get all tokens that the possessed player would get is much more straightforward than to say you only get Debt tokens and nothing else, and more resilient to future cards or mechanics that introduce tokens.

I think you just dislike Possession, not the errata per se. That's fine.
Logged
pacovf has a neopets account.  It has 999 hours logged.  All his neopets are named "Jessica".  I guess that must be his ex.

Limetime

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1237
  • Shuffle iT Username: limetime
  • Respect: +1179
    • View Profile
+3

I wish you could like ban 5 cards from rated games.
Logged

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3458
    • View Profile
0

I agree Possession is just an unfun card to play with and is too often unbalanced.

I think Bishop, Goons, Monument, and Baker being counters to it, and now not being counters to it, really didn't change anything.

Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
+3

I think Possession would be fine if it were only once per turn. But that's more words on the wordiest card in the game.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
+4

I think Possession would be fine if it were only once per turn. But that's more words on the wordiest card in the game.

Man, I just came up with a nice word-saving, time-machine fix for Possession.

"The player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, in which you can see all cards they can and make all decisions for them. They can't trash cards on that turn, and any cards or tokens they would gain, you gain instead."

…with the understanding that "can't" always trumps "do". That should leave room for a "If this is the first time you played Possession this turn" clause.

"If this is the first time you played Possession this turn, the player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, in which you can see all cards they can and make all decisions for them. They can't trash cards on that turn, and any cards or tokens they would gain, you gain instead."

Yep, still shorter than the original (errata-ed) version.
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2479
    • View Profile
0

I think the biggest problem is the mechanic itself... Dominion is full of edge-cases, but there's no reason that there has to be an edge case to the rule "You play your own turns". Imagine all the other cool cost cards that could have existed instead.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
+2

I think the biggest problem is the mechanic itself... Dominion is full of edge-cases, but there's no reason that there has to be an edge case to the rule "You play your own turns". Imagine all the other cool cost cards that could have existed instead.

That's a weird way to think of it. I mean, I don't think Possession was created in order to have a super-expensive Potion-cost card. I bet the mechanic came first, and $6P was just what it ended up costing.

Which is not to say we couldn't have fun imagining some other crazy expensive Potion-cost cards. It just struck me as an odd question.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9712
  • Respect: +10774
    • View Profile
+1

I also am not a fan of the change; but does it really affect things very often? There's only a handful of cards that give VP tokens (more with Empires, of course, but still not a lot). I would think that it's a pretty small minority of Possession games where the errata changes things (especially compared to a version that only affects debt).

But also, was the ruling on - tokens ever finalized? Donald was going for saying that yes, if you would take your - token while possessed, the possessor gets it instead. But this has weird interactions with the - rules themselves (what was the ruling if you play a single Copper while you have multiple tokens, do you discard both or just 1?).
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4086
    • View Profile
+5

The problem with the rules change to "fix" debt with Possession, I recently found out that it doesn't actually fix it. I recently had 2 games with Possession and debt cards that were terribly broken. The first person that gets a multiple Possession turn and is able to get it regularly it just going to win as he can just buy the debt card on every Possession turn giving himself tons of debt tokens. When the opponent possesses him, he then has the awkward decision to pay back the first player's debt which he probably won't do unless he's confident that it works out. But it makes his Possession basically useless. Additionally the opponent doesn't get any debt as well which enables the first player to just possess him again multiple times being able to buy lots of cards and possibly getting even more debt.

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2467
    • View Profile
0

My favorite is Donate Possession games.   ::)
Logged

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2984
    • View Profile
0

Quote from: Chris is me link=topic=17265.msg696716#msg696716 date
I think Bishop, Goons, Monument, and Baker being counters to it, and now not being counters to it, really didn't change anything.
Baker is still good against Possession. it gives economy only the real owner of a deck can use.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6375
  • Respect: +25741
    • View Profile
+2

Making it so that you get all tokens that the possessed player would get is much more straightforward than to say you only get Debt tokens and nothing else, and more resilient to future cards or mechanics that introduce tokens.
Right, that is the idea. Debt tokens did not work with Possession, you could lock someone out of the game. I decided Debt was worth doing anyway. To fix the problem Possession got errata to also steal tokens. One day the errata will be on new copies of the printed card, and it would be super weird to call out Debt tokens specifically, since Possession isn't in Empires.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6375
  • Respect: +25741
    • View Profile
+5

I wish you could like ban 5 cards from rated games.
I agree, this continues to sound good to me. Players shouldn't have to play with cards they hate, even for the privilege of playing rated games. The only reason to not let you ban cards is to avoid gaming the system, and 5 cards doesn't give you much room to game the system, while going a long way towards letting you ban the cards you hate.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6375
  • Respect: +25741
    • View Profile
+13

Man, I just came up with a nice word-saving, time-machine fix for Possession.
My time-machine fix is a bigger Smugglers. Like how Fortune is a much simpler Outpost. Instead of processing another turn with their deck, let's look at the results for a turn that just happened.

Possession: Action, $6 [P]
For each card the player to your right gained in their last turn, gain a card costing as much or less.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6375
  • Respect: +25741
    • View Profile
+2

That's a weird way to think of it. I mean, I don't think Possession was created in order to have a super-expensive Potion-cost card. I bet the mechanic came first, and $6P was just what it ended up costing.
That's true of course. Possession was just a card idea that got an expensive cost because it needed it.

During work on Alchemy-to-be-published it became a thing, that it seemed good to have one especially expensive card, as a way for the Potion-costing cards to not all be non-terminal (while keeping Potion worth getting even with just one Potion-coster on the table). And I had one.
Logged

Haddock

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 725
  • Shuffle iT Username: Haddock
  • Doc Cod
  • Respect: +559
    • View Profile
+4

Man, I just came up with a nice word-saving, time-machine fix for Possession.
My time-machine fix is a bigger Smugglers. Like how Fortune is a much simpler Outpost. Instead of processing another turn with their deck, let's look at the results for a turn that just happened.

Possession: Action, $6 [P]
For each card the player to your right gained in their last turn, gain a card costing as much or less.
This would probably be moderately challenging to track IRL, but hell.  Gotta be easier than playing Possession IRL! :D
Logged
The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6375
  • Respect: +25741
    • View Profile
+1

But also, was the ruling on - tokens ever finalized? Donald was going for saying that yes, if you would take your - token while possessed, the possessor gets it instead. But this has weird interactions with the - rules themselves (what was the ruling if you play a single Copper while you have multiple tokens, do you discard both or just 1?).
Oh man, this thread seemed so innocent.

Okay I have re-read the previous conversation. Mostly the questions are answered, to someone's satisfaction or not but answered nevertheless, with no loose ends. The one thing you could point at is Jeebus saying I should errata the token, to "When you would get $, instead get $1 less and lose this." I say I will have to consider that Later and well I have not gotten to it. That is how it works but there is no errata, just a ruling (so to answer your question, it's the same as in that thread, you just lose one token).
Logged

ThetaSigma12

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1681
  • Shuffle iT Username: ThetaSigma12
  • Respect: +1813
    • View Profile
0

My favorite is Donate Possession games.   ::)
I'm assuming because people buy Donate after possessing you but before reading the text on Donate and Possession really well.
Logged
My magnum opus collection of dominion fan cards is available here!

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9631
    • View Profile
0

Man, I just came up with a nice word-saving, time-machine fix for Possession.
My time-machine fix is a bigger Smugglers. Like how Fortune is a much simpler Outpost. Instead of processing another turn with their deck, let's look at the results for a turn that just happened.

Possession: Action, $6 [P]
For each card the player to your right gained in their last turn, gain a card costing as much or less.

This sounds like an online only card if I ever saw one
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1325
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1385
    • View Profile
+1

"The player to your left takes an extra turn after this one, in which you can see all cards they can and make all decisions for them. They can't trash cards on that turn, and any cards or tokens they would gain, you gain instead."

…with the understanding that "can't" always trumps "do". That should leave room for a "If this is the first time you played Possession this turn" clause.
Needs some clarification as to what cards like Lookout do when they get played in that situation, but could work.
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3458
    • View Profile
0

Man, I just came up with a nice word-saving, time-machine fix for Possession.
My time-machine fix is a bigger Smugglers. Like how Fortune is a much simpler Outpost. Instead of processing another turn with their deck, let's look at the results for a turn that just happened.

Possession: Action, $6 [P]
For each card the player to your right gained in their last turn, gain a card costing as much or less.

I legitimately might make a proxy card version of this and replace all of my Possessions IRL with this. It's a really cool concept and I'm already never playing with Possession IRL anyway. I'm sure there are rules quirks I'm forgetting, but regardless.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them
Pages: [1] 2 3  All
 

Page created in 0.056 seconds with 20 queries.