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[SpaceAnemone]

Welcome to RMM42: Space Alert Mafia!

This is an invented open set-up by SpaceAnemone, based on the board game Space Alert.


Players
1. Haddock was townie
2. faust
3. Luckat -> mcmcsalot was townie
4. gkrieg Mafia!!!!!!!
5. EFHW
6. Chairs -> LaLight Mafia!!!!!!!
7. CheesyJelly was townie
8. zxcvbn2 -> Skumpy was townie
9. theorel
10. Iguana Mafia!!!!!!!
11. silverspawn
12. Awaclus
13. e
14. Roadrunner was townie!


Mods: SpaceAnemone and Ashersky

Tagged: Ashersky, schadd, O, DatSwan

Navigation
D1 start, D1 end
D2 start, D2 end
D3 start, D3 end
D4 start, D4 end
D5 start, D5 end
D6 start, D5 end
Game End

Overview
Space Alert mafia is a normal game of Mafia, but with a miniature round of Space Alert during the night to influence (or sabotage!) the distribution of PR action shots.

There will be 10 townies, and 4 scums. Nobody has flavour names or special powers, except that the scums may be able to perform a Night Kill action (details later). Town wins when all the scums are dead. Scum wins when all the townies are dead, or nothing can prevent that from happening. All players have a QT with the mod(s). Scum have a QT with other scum that will be open except during the day phase.

Play progresses in three phases
Day phase [Up to 7 days] -- normal mafia, everyone talks in thread, votes work as normal, day ends when a lynch (or no-lynch) occurs, or when the deadline is reached, whichever is sooner.
Space phase [2 days] -- Players get a chance to play three cards to move around the ship and/or take space-alert actions. Some space alert actions cause Mafia actions; others affect the ship environment.
Mafia-Game Action Resolution [Mod Discretion on timings] -- all mafia-game actions are resolved at the end of the night, in a single mafia resolution order, no matter which card-playing step they occurred in.

Details of the Space Alert components will be covered in subsequent set-up posts; the "normal" Mafia-style rules are summarised below.


Golden Rule
Please remember that this is a game, and your main objective is to have fun :-) Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, respect each other's boundaries/preferences, and never get personal. Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments. Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by penalties or modkills.

Please read and sign the Civility Pledge before signing up for any mafia game on this site. If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play.

Standard Mafia Rules
1. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings and the QTs specifically designed for this purpose.
2. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 24 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.
3. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
4. Once players have reached a simple majority, no further unvoting will change someone’s fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
5. Once a player is lynched, the game enters twilight until the mod locks the thread; all players, including the one who was lynched, may continue to post during twilight.
6. If the deadline is hit without a player reaching the majority of votes, there will be no lynch.
7. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName. Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous and obvious to the mod(s).
8. Please submit vote revocations as Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
9. You may Vote: No Lynch -- a simple majority of these vote types is required to send the game to the next phase without a lynch.
10. If the game goes on for 5 days and 5 nights without a lynch or night kill, town wins. Note: this is a longer repetition cycle than standard.
11. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in Quicktopics. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
12. If the thread is locked, you may not post. The mod may forget to lock the thread, but if they say it is locked, it is still locked.

Miscellaneous

1. Blue-purple text is reserved for the mod. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please discuss this in your personal QT. Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The mod(s) may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued upon request after 24 hours of no activity. A prodded player has a further 24 hours to respond, or risks replacement. A player who has already been prodded twice is subject to replacement or modkill if a third prod is requested.
6. Do not discuss ongoing games in this thread: it can unintentionally affect the other game. Do not discuss this game in any thread that is not directly related to it.
7. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, which may include modkill(s) if needed.
8. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 24-hour period, please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging. Players who fail to post for 48 hours without an announcement, or fail to post for 24 hours repeatedly, risk being subject to replacement and/or being modkilled without further notice.
9. Players who discover they are too busy to play in a game or want to leave the game for civility issues are not allowed to officially /out in the thread. A request to /out must only be done via a post in the role QT. Please do not use this as a manipulation technique.  (Note players may continue to threaten to /out or imply that they might as long as it does not include an official request). Requests to /out are final once submitted. There will be no /outing and then /inning back into the game so make sure that when you /out you have thought it through and really want to do it. Players that can't be replaced will simply be mod-killed. Whether your request to /out will lead to replacement or a modkill is up to the mod's discretion.

[SpaceAnemone]

The Ship

The Space Phase involves interacting with the space ship. The ship has two decks (upper and lower), and three zones (Red, White, Blue, from left to right), giving six rooms in total. There are three actions (A, B and C) for each zone, corresponding to the three different types of card action (see Cards section, later). Ship layout and corresponding actions are given in detail in another post, also below.

Player position is hidden from all other players (with the exception of those using "deck monitoring" or "zone monitoring" actions). Upper and lower decks are linked with a lift in each of the three zones.

Ship Movement
Cards (see card section below), may played for movement to move one space in the direction they indicate. Red cards move left, blue ones move right, and lift ones switch from upper to lower deck or vice versa.

Lifts are a bottleneck to movement. If one person successfully uses a lift, the next three people in turn order will find their attempt at lift use fails. This counter resets at the start of each new Space Phase round.

There is no limit on the number of players who can move in the red or blue directions per turn-step.

Ship Actions
Ship actions are performed by playing a card as an action in a given room. Each room has actions corresponding to each letter.

Ship Energy
In order to use A and B actions in upper red and upper blue (which gain one-shot powers), there must be one energy per action already in the red/blue pools (located in lower red and lower blue respectively). Each use of an A or B action pulls one unit of energy from its corresponding pool, unless otherwise stated. If no energy exists for the action, the action will fail.

Energy is generated in lower white using the B action. Unlike the boardgame version, there is no limit to how many times this action may be used over the course of the game. However, each action pool has a total capacity that cannot be exceeded, and the supply of B actions is limited by what cards players hold, so plan your energy usage and distribution wisely! Once generated in lower white, further B actions can be used to pull energy into the pools in lower red or lower blue, for use generating mafia-game action shots.

Constraints
The A and B actions in each room may each only be used once in each of the three rounds of a Space Phase. Subsequent players attempting to use the same action will fail at the card action. (The card will be lost, but no energy will be drawn from the pool).

Each player may only gain one single mafia-game action shot (e.g. cop, doctor) per Space Phase (not per round). Subsequent attempts to gain any type of shot will be treated as a failed card action.

Scum Actions
By default, the scum NK can only reach those players who visit the Upper Deck of the ship during a given Space Phase. The scum NK is performed by one scum player instead of one of their usual card placements in a turn-step. If more than one scum player attempts to perform the NK, only the first attempt in turn order will be counted. If that player is RBd during the Mafia-Game Action Resolution Phase, the NK will not happen even if another scum player entered a target.

There are some extra C actions that are only available to scum, called S actions (these appear in lower red and lower blue). One allows for NKs on the lower deck, and one sabotages some of upper-deck actions for the following Space Phase.


Cards

Each card has a movement type and an action letter. Action types are labeled A, B and C.
Movement types are:
1) Move redwards (to the left of the map).
2) Move bluewards (to the right of the map).
3) Use the lift.

Cards are created at random as they're dealt, with equal chances of having any of the nine possible configurations.

Card hand contents will be listed in a player's QT, with each card represented as a bracketed movement-action pair, such as (Red-B) or (Lift-A).

The mod will re-state each player's complete hand of cards at the start of each day phase in their QT.

Scum players must give their card-play instructions, including the NK instruction, in their personal QTs. Scum game-play instructions will not be accepted if issued in the scum QT.


Start of Game
Night 0 starts after everyone has confirmed and lasts 24 hours. Starting hands of 6 cards will be dealt at the start of N0. The ship starts with 2 energy in the red pool and the blue pool, and three in the central pool.

Day Phase
Each player is dealt 3 new cards at random (from D2 onwards), which they hold in addition to their previous hand. Some actions in a preceding night phase may allow a player to receive extra cards. If anything happened to the ship in the preceding night phase (sabotage or computer lock-out), these will be announced at daybreak, along with energy distributions. During the day phase, any scum player may request in the Scum QT to be placed in the upper half of the turn order for the next Space Phase. (Turn order will be public knowledge).

Space Phase
At the end of the Day Phase/start of the Space Phase, mods will post a random player ordering for the turn, re-randomized each night. Play proceeds three times round the player set (three turn-steps per player). Movement and actions are determined blindly and simultaneously by all players by declaring one card play for each of the three turn-steps.

• Example 1:
  (Start in Upper White)
  Step 1: Play card (Blue-C) as Action.
  Step 2: Play card (Red-C) as Movement.
  Step 3: Play card (Lift-A) as Action. Target: Haddock.
  -- Assuming this player started in Upper White, this would have the following effects:
  1) Play the C action in Upper White, which averts computer lock-out for this Space Phase.
  2) Moves to Upper Red.
  3) If there was already energy in the Red Pool AND nobody earlier in the turn order has played A in Upper Red already this turn, one unit of energy is consumed. This will result in a Mafia-Game Action Cop shot targeting Haddock, resolved during the Mafia-Game Action Resolution Phase.
  
  
• Example 2:
  (Start in Upper Blue)
  Step 1: Play card (Lift-B) as Movement.
  Step 2: Play card (Lift-B) as Action. [Assuming the existence of two (Lift-B) cards in this player's hand].
  Step 3: Play card (Red-B) as Action.
  -- Let's assume the player two places ahead in this Space Phase's turn order also used the Blue lift this turn. The player's intended set of actions was to go to the lower deck and draw energy to support upper-deck Weak Visitor/Doctor actions. However, the lift had not reset, and the player finds themself stranded on the upper deck instead. The B actions therefore convert to Doctor Shot attempts. If no target is provided during the Space Phase, mods will assign one randomly from the complete set of players. To avoid this, players may choose provide a target for any A or B action, even if they do not expect the action to require one.

Mafia Action Resolution Phase
After the complete three-round Space Phase, all mafia-game actions are resolved according to the resolution order below, no matter which of the three steps they were obtained during.

Note that this means a RB obtained in the third round can be used to block a NK played as a card action in the second round.

The resolution order is:

• Commute
• RB
• Cop-Switch
• Cop
• Doctor
• Weak Visitor
• Scum NK

[SpaceAnemone]

Space Alert Ship Layout



Upper Red
A: Cop shot (Mafia-Game Action). Costs one energy from red pool.
B: Commute shot (Mafia-Game Action). Costs one energy from red pool.
C: Disable A&B action at Upper Blue on this turn-step (even if the A/B action is used earlier in the turn-step order than this C action). Energy for disabled actions will not be taken from the pool. Does not cost energy.

Upper White (start zone)
A: Tracker shot (Mafia-Game Action). Costs one energy from central pool.
B: RB shot (Mafia-Game Action). Costs one energy from central pool.
C: Wiggle the Mouse. At least one player must play a C in this zone at some point in each Space Phase to avoid a computer lock-out. If this condition is not met, actions in one of upper red/upper blue will be unavailable the following night (random, announced at start of next day phase).

Upper Blue
A: Weak Visitor shot (Mafia-Game Action). Costs one energy from blue pool. Weak visitor is not affected at all by the Cop Switch.
B: Doctor shot (Mafia-Game Action). Costs one energy from blue pool. Fails if target has gained the use of one or more doctor shots this Space Phase (i.e. doctors cannot target doctors).
C: Cop Switch Shot (Mafia-Game Action). Flips all cop readings for targeted player; flips all of a cop’s readings if the cop themself is targeted. (Two flips on one target cancel, as do a pair of flips that target the cop and the cop’s target). Note: because this is a C action, multiple different players may play it successfully per turn-step. However, this is still subject to the constraint that one Mafia-Game Action may be obtained per night per player.

Lower Red
A: Card draw. Target player gains two extra cards the following day. May self-target. Does not draw energy.
B: Pull up to 3 energy from central pool to red pool. (Red pool can only hold 3).
C: Deck monitoring: receive information about what deck (upper/lower) the target player was on the moment (in turn order) that this card was played. Does not draw energy. Result returned after resolution phase.
S: Sabotage: Scum may choose to play this room’s C action with “Sabotage” as the target. If at least 2Y C cards are played this way during one Space phase (where Y is the current number of scums), actions in one of upper red/upper blue will cost 2 energy units instead of one for the following night (random, announced at start of next day phase). Use of “deck monitoring” in this turn-step does not block the scum action here.

Lower White
A: Status Print-out. Costs one energy from central pool. Player receives list of the names of all mafia-game shots gained by players during the night.
B: Replenish central pool with up to 5 energy.
C: Block the scum NK, If this action is performed at least N/2 times (rounded up), where N is the total number of players alive, the scum NK is blocked in this Space Phase.

Lower Blue
A: Enable card-passing: Target player may send up to two cards from their hand to a single player over the next day phase. Does not draw energy. May self-target. Communicated in QT.
B: Pull up to 3 energy from central pool to blue pool. (Blue pool can only hold 3).
C: Zone monitoring: receive information about which zone (red/white/blue) the target player was in the moment (in turn order) that this card was played. Does not draw energy. Result returned after resolution phase.
S: Secret hatch: Scum may choose to play this room’s C action with “Secret Hatch” as the target. If at least Y+1 C cards are played this way during one Space Phase, the scum NK can reach players on the lower deck during this night's Mafia-Game Action Resolution Phase, where Y is the number of scum in the game. Use of “zone monitoring” in this turn-step does not block the scum C action here.

Clarification for Lower Red/Lower Blue C actions: if the target player is ahead of you in turn order, you will know where they moved to this turn; if they are behind you in turn order, you see where they ended the turn before.


Short Summary

A: Cop Shot B: Commute Shot C: Dissable Upper Blue A/B	|    |    |	A: Tracker Shot B: RB Shot C: Wiggle the Mouse	|    |    |	A: Weak Visitor Shot B: Doctor Shot C: Cop Switch Shot
A: Card Draw B: Pull 3 Energy to Red C: Deck Monitoring S: Sabotage	|    |    |    |	A: Status Print-out B: Replenish Central Energy C: Block NK	|    |    |    |	A: Enable Card-Passing B: Pull 3 Energy to Blue C: Zone Monitoring S: Secret Hatch

[SpaceAnemone]

PM Templates

Welcome, player name!

You are a Townie!

Your QT for cards and Space Phase actions is Personal QT Location.
Please confirm in this QT as soon as possible; N0 will not begin until after everyone has confirmed.

You win when all mafia-aligned players are dead, and there is at least one town-aligned player left alive.

Welcome, player name!

You are a Scum!

Your QT for cards and Space Phase actions is Personal QT Location.
Please confirm in this QT as soon as possible; N0 will not begin until after everyone has confirmed.
All actions (including the scum NK) must be given as commands in your personal QT.
You may also request during the day phase to be placed in the top half of the random player ordering for the following Space Phase.

The scum QT for plotting and scheming with your buddies is Scum QT Location.

You win when all town-aligned players are dead, or nothing can prevent that from happening.

[ashersky]

Tag

[faust]

/tag

I have big worries about open RMMs. I will look at the setup in more detail at some point.

[schadd]

/tag


you and your big worries about things

[silverspawn]

/tag

I have big worries about open RMMs. I will look at the setup in more detail at some point.

I tried pretty hard to find a way to break it and didn't.

[SpaceAnemone]

/tag

I have big worries about open RMMs. I will look at the setup in more detail at some point.

I tried pretty hard to find a way to break it and didn't.

Aha, I appear to have failed to acknowledge you and Haddock as my two consultants! Shall I wait till we're sure there aren't any embarassing sticking points left? ;-)
(I've changed very little since we went through it the other week).

[silverspawn]

Not really possible, because there is no being sure. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was in fact breakable.

(Even if we play it and it works well, there could still be a way to break it that no-one noticed. The hope is that if you, Haddock, and I (and maybe faust?) all failed to find it, then no-one else will, either!)

[Haddock]

/tag

I have big worries about open RMMs. I will look at the setup in more detail at some point.

I tried pretty hard to find a way to break it and didn't.

Aha, I appear to have failed to acknowledge you and Haddock as my two consultants! Shall I wait till we're sure there aren't any embarassing sticking points left? ;-)
(I've changed very little since we went through it the other week).

Don't credit me too much.  I really didn't do much other than peek through and see if there were any wordings that could be fixed.  I have no idea if it's balanced/breakable.

[Haddock]

I'll definitely play, though, when it comes round to it.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'll definitely play, though, when it comes round to it.

And you definitely haven't found a terrible flaw now that you're just not telling anyone about till you know what team you're on? ;-)

I think while it's completely open in terms of set-up, the randomness of the card draw means people can't plan too far in advance, so perhaps it's not totally open in that sense.

[faust]

While I don't think there's a breaking strategy, I find it very difficult to judge just how strong the strategies available are.

[chairs]

"Nobody leave the lower deck" does force scum to play secret hatches for NKs, which (if they don't get a lot of C cards) could be relevant quickly.

[SpaceAnemone]

"Nobody leave the lower deck" does force scum to play secret hatches for NKs, which (if they don't get a lot of C cards) could be relevant quickly.

All the one-shots are generated on the upper deck, so I expect some townies to risk it. There's also a bottleneck for people to reach the lower deck in the early game because of the way the lifts work. Note that scum can get themselves relative priority on card draw and card passing if they're willing to risk taking the opportunity to put themselves in the top half of the space phase turn order.

If this still seems to encourage too much safe play by town, my inclination would be to put a heavier penalty on not wiggling the mouse, like the secret hatch being open for the following night, in addition to locking out one of the upper red/blue rooms.

[faust]

When will this open?

[SpaceAnemone]

When will this open?

I wanted to encourage RMM41 to fill before I opened it, so I said I wouldn't open this till that one's in D1. I kind of forgot about the existence of N0 when I said that, though, and RMM41 is in N0 now. Would you like me to open this for sign-ups? :-)

[Haddock]

Let me answer that question with an /in.

[faust]

/in deed.

[LaLight]

the setup looks breathtak/ing

[gkrieg13]

/in

[Calamitas]

Cannot play until the 4th of May but the setup looks amazing :-)

[EFHW]

/in

[faust]

Cannot play until the 4th of May but the setup looks amazing :-)

I thought this would be up your alley. I would prefer not to wait a month though.

[faust]

Bumpetybump!

I want this to start. People should sign up.

[LaLight]

just 9 more!

[LaLight]

Bump

[SpaceAnemone]

Bump

Not much chance of getting sign-ups while the M100 buzz is going on, is there? :-(

Maybe I'll start picking up interested players as M100 people get killed and they want something else to fill the void? :-P

[LaLight]

Bump

Not much chance of getting sign-ups while the M100 buzz is going on, is there? :-(

Maybe I'll start picking up interested players as M100 people get killed and they want something else to fill the void? :-P

That's an idea!

[Calamitas]

Cannot play until the 4th of May but the setup looks amazing :-)

\in I guess I can play now ;-)

[Calamitas]

Are all energy pools empty at the start of the game? (if it is written somewhere, sorry )

[CheesyJelly]

/in.  It would be rude not to!

[SpaceAnemone]

Are all energy pools empty at the start of the game? (if it is written somewhere, sorry )

Ah, apparently I didn't say anything about that! Energy is initialised as in the boardgame version: two in the red and blue zones, and three in the middle. I've updated the rules post to say so.

[QuickSync]

I suck at these kinds of games, but meh, I'm looking for a game.

/Tag(in) whatever you do here



(not like anyone would remember me).

[O]

\tag


might \in in a bit now that i'm down to 1 game

[QuickSync]

Also, Hi LaLight, i think I know you from MS???

[gkrieg13]

I suck at these kinds of games, but meh, I'm looking for a game.

/Tag(in) whatever you do here



(not like anyone would remember me).

I remember you!

[QuickSync]

I suck at these kinds of games, but meh, I'm looking for a game.

/Tag(in) whatever you do here



(not like anyone would remember me).

I remember you!

Cool. Just a heads up I am a lot better at this game than the last time I was here. Awaclus might be able to fill you in

[faust]

Welcome back

[faust]

/in.  It would be rude not to!

That's right. Everyone not signed up should remember that they are bound to the civility pledge!

[Awaclus]

Awaclus might be able to fill you in

Were you in that one game I played on Mafia Universe?

[LaLight]

Also, Hi LaLight, i think I know you from MS???

I've played some on MS, but I don't remember the guy with your nickname.. do you have the same there?

[QuickSync]

Awaclus might be able to fill you in

Were you in that one game I played on Mafia Universe?

Yer.

[QuickSync]

Also, Hi LaLight, i think I know you from MS???

I've played some on MS, but I don't remember the guy with your nickname.. do you have the same there?

I go by LQ on MS.

[QuickSync]

Welcome back

Thanks

[LaLight]

Also, Hi LaLight, i think I know you from MS???

I've played some on MS, but I don't remember the guy with your nickname.. do you have the same there?

I go by LQ on MS.

Ah! Guys, i confirm one of the best and coolest players I've seen

[QuickSync]

Also, Hi LaLight, i think I know you from MS???

I've played some on MS, but I don't remember the guy with your nickname.. do you have the same there?

I go by LQ on MS.

Ah! Guys, i confirm one of the best and coolest players I've seen

Damn, that's quite a compliment. Thanks.

[QuickSync]

Awaclus might be able to fill you in

Were you in that one game I played on Mafia Universe?

Yer.

To be more clear, I was the JK that had to claim D1.

[Awaclus]

Awaclus might be able to fill you in

Were you in that one game I played on Mafia Universe?

Yer.

Well, I didn't pay much attention to that game in the first place and I stopped following it completely after I got lynched so I actually don't have any idea how well you played. 

[QuickSync]

Awaclus might be able to fill you in

Were you in that one game I played on Mafia Universe?

Yer.

Well, I didn't pay much attention to that game in the first place and I stopped following it completely after I got lynched so I actually don't have any idea how well you played. 

Yeah, you barely posted in that game. I was NK N1 so didn't survive very long either.

[QuickSync]

I might have to out this game if it doesn't fill soon 

[QuickSync]

/Out

Sorry.

[chairs]

/in

[Roadrunner7671]

/in

[luckat]

/in

[faust]

Let's get this going!

[EFHW]

I had a dream last night that I got my pm for this game. I was town 

[silverspawn]

/in

[chairs]

/out

[EFHW]

easy come, easy go.

[Roadrunner7671]

Everytime I see activity in this thread I get a sinking feeling because I want to play but I've read the setup at least 4 times and still don't understand.

[Roadrunner7671]

/out

[SpaceAnemone]

 

[silverspawn]

Would it help if I explain you the setup?

[faust]

Would it help if I explain you the setup?

Hey! Mafia setups are no jokes.

[silverspawn]

^ The joke was that we explain jokes on f.ds.

[CheesyJelly]

Recommendation for those struggling with set-up:
Find a video on YouTube that explains how to play the board game Space Alert. The tricky bit of the mechanics should then make sense. Better yet, play the board game Space Alert.

[faust]

No RMM games ongoing... this needs to start!

[zxcvbn2]

Gosh, I love Space Alert and this looks fantastic. I'm /in

[Awaclus]

/in

[ashersky]

Two more for this to fill.  I encourage anyone who understands the setup to sign up.

[LaLight]

Two more for this to fill.  I encourage anyone who understands the setup to sign up.

What if I don't but I am already signed up? :x

[ashersky]

Two more for this to fill.  I encourage anyone who understands the setup to sign up.

What if I don't but I am already signed up? :x

Then don’t sign up again.

[silverspawn]

I'll try to summarize the setup. Maybe I can make it more accessible.

This is the ship:

--------------------------------------------------
-                       --                       --                       --
-                       -- Starting Point  --                       --
-                       --                       --                       --
--------------------------------------------------
-                       --                       --                       --
-  RED POOL  -- CENTRAL POOL --  BLUE POOL --
-                       --                       --                       --
--------------------------------------------------

There are 6 rooms: upper and lower, red, white (I drew it black), and blue.

Each night, you move around the ship to do cool stuff. You do that by playing your three cards that you get randomly. The nine possible cards are:

[A – Red], [A – Blue], [A – Lift],
[B – Red], [B – Blue], [B – Lift],
[C – Red], [C – Blue], [C – Lift].

The second part of the card (Red, Blue, or Lift) is for moving around. Red moves leftwards, Blue moves rightwards, Lift moves up (if you are down) or down (if you are up). The first part is to do an action. When you play a card, you decide whether you use it for the action or for the movement. Say you have the first three cards in the list above and start in the upper white room, then you can play them to move left, then back right, and then downward. Then you're in the lower white room. Probably not a great turn.

Actions do different stuff depending on which room you're in. Each Room has a thing it does when someone plays an A in it, a different thing it does when someone plays a B in it, and a third thing it does when someone plays a C in it. So there are 6 * 3 = 18 different things the ship can do (plus an extra two only scum can use).

Using A and B actions also takes out one energy out of the corresponding pool (when you're in the red room and use an action it takes 1 energy out of the red pool, and accordingly blue room -> blue pool; white room -> central pool.) The Red and Blue pool start with 2 energy and can hold 3; central starts with 3 energy and can hold 5. C Actions are special and don't take energy. If there is no energy left but your action takes one, the action fails. So say there is 2 energy in the red pool and in one night first gkrieg uses it, then LaLight, then I and then faust, that means the pool depletes after LaLight's action and faust's and mine fail. Some of the 18 possible actions replish pools.

Say you have the first three cards again and start in the bottom left (lower red) room. You can play [A - Red] as an Action, then [A - Lift] as a Movement, and finally [A - Blue] as an Action. Then what happen is: you use A in the lower Left Room, move upwards, then use A in the upper Red Room. The two actions each drain one energy from the Red pool.

This table shows which room / Action combination leads to which result

A: Cop Shot B: Commute Shot C: Dissable Upper Blue A/B	|    |    |	A: Tracker Shot B: RB Shot C: Wiggle the Mouse	|    |    |	A: Weak Visitor Shot B: Doctor Shot C: Cop Switch Shot
A: Card Draw B: Pull 3 Energy to Red C: Deck Monitoring S: Sabotage	|    |    |    |	A: Status Print-out B: Replenish Central Energy C: Block NK	|    |    |    |	A: Enable Card-Passing B: Pull 3 Energy to Blue C: Zone Monitoring S: Secret Hatch

The S actions are like C except that only mafia can use them.

If you're still following, then you understood the bulk of the setup. The rest is just additional rules and details. Try reading the setup post again and see if it makes sense now.

[Roadrunner7671]

/in

Thanks SS!

[LaLight]

1 more!

[SpaceAnemone]

1 more!

2 more, I think, unless I missed someone?

[SpaceAnemone]

Gosh, I love Space Alert and this looks fantastic. I'm /in

Fab! Are you a newbie to Mafia? I don't think I see you over on the Civility Pledge, so the first thing to do is to sign up over there :-)

[zxcvbn2]

I'm not new, but it's been several years, thanks for directing me over there.

[Robz888]

I'm not new, but it's been several years, thanks for directing me over there.

Wow. I believe you last played in, what, Mafia 5? An insane game (actually RMMM at least, and perhaps bastard, by the standards we use now), that Galz and I were just discussing last night (in person!).

[zxcvbn2]

I'm not new, but it's been several years, thanks for directing me over there.

Wow. I believe you last played in, what, Mafia 5? An insane game (actually RMMM at least, and perhaps bastard, by the standards we use now), that Galz and I were just discussing last night (in person!).

Haha yep, I think that's right. It's been a while.

[zxcvbn2]

I'm not new, but it's been several years, thanks for directing me over there.

Wow. I believe you last played in, what, Mafia 5? An insane game (actually RMMM at least, and perhaps bastard, by the standards we use now), that Galz and I were just discussing last night (in person!).

Also, wait, you're allowed to talk with users in person? Isn't that a rules violation or something?

[EFHW]

I'm not new, but it's been several years, thanks for directing me over there.

Wow. I believe you last played in, what, Mafia 5? An insane game (actually RMMM at least, and perhaps bastard, by the standards we use now), that Galz and I were just discussing last night (in person!).

Also, wait, you're allowed to talk with users in person? Isn't that a rules violation or something?

It's ok if the game is over.

[Robz888]

We can talk about games that ended half a decade ago

[faust]

We can talk about games that ended half a decade ago

I think I should change my ruleset such that the first rule of my games is "Do not talk about this game."

[zxcvbn2]

We can talk about games that ended half a decade ago

Game mods have become soft, huh?

[2.71828.....]

/in

[faust]

Come on someone hammer!

[Awaclus]

/in

[SpaceAnemone]

/in

Fake News!!!

Any real hammers?

[faust]

/in

Fake News!!!

Any real hammers?

YOu should change the thread title to something like "1 spot left". That tends to attract people.

[Calamitas]

Sorry guys, not quite ready for this :-(

/out

[Awaclus]

When does this start? I want to play Mafia ;__;

[silverspawn]

It starts once           Moat       

[LaLight]

It starts once           Moat       

I think you confused it with          Moan         

[schadd]

one moat, i don't know why

it doesn't even matter how pool you scry

[chairs]

screw it. /in

[SpaceAnemone]

screw it. /in

Woot! Only one more spot going now! :-)

[Roadrunner7671]

/out

[silverspawn]

/out

why??

[iguanaiguana]

/out

why??

Check the VLA thread

[Awaclus]

Can this fill up now that a couple of games are over?

[ashersky]

I agree that this should fill and start.

[SpaceAnemone]

I agree too!

Any recommendations on the best way to confirm with existing players that they're still in? We're just a few days short of it being 6 months since Haddock inned :-P

[ashersky]

I agree too!

Any recommendations on the best way to confirm with existing players that they're still in? We're just a few days short of it being 6 months since Haddock inned :-P

This post works.

[LaLight]

Rererererererein

[gkrieg13]

/in still, especially considering I forgot to sign up for schadd's game.

[silverspawn]

ye, st/in ill.

[EFHW]

I'm still /in.

[luckat]

/out sorry, the next month or two would not be a good time for me to get involved in a game.

[Seprix]

/in

I'm back, baby.

[silverspawn]

/in

I'm back, baby.

what baby?

[Seprix]

/in

I'm back, baby.

what baby?

I dunno.

[gkrieg13]

Hey Seprix is back!

[Seprix]

Come oooooon deck signups

[RAwaclus]

Unfortunately I can't sign up because everyone else is my smurf.

[Swowl]

there is no way I am playing this lol way too complicated, but I would love to watch please

/tag

[LaLight]

/out, sorry. If things go better i will come back at some point

[silverspawn]

At the risk of repeating myself, this should start.

In fact, YOU should sign in. Yes, you!

[Awaclus]

In fact, YOU should sign in. Yes, you!

/in

[Seprix]

/out

[Swowl]

screw it. I love complicated.

/in

[Swowl]

wow false, nvm way tooo complicated sorry, I thought this was the Falling thread.

/outoutotuout

[silverspawn]

wow false, nvm way tooo complicated sorry, I thought this was the Falling thread.

/outoutotuout

Have you read my simplified explanation?

[Swowl]

I have not. But I will now. Thank you.

[Haddock]

/out for now.

[iguanaiguana]

Will /in on January 15 at the latest.

[Haddock]

/In

[luckat]

/in

[silverspawn]

Isn't this almost (?) full now?

[theorel]

This sounds fun, I'll \in.

[faust]

By my count:

1. Haddock
2. faust
3. luckat
4. gkrieg
5. EFHW
6. CheesyJelly
7. zxcvbn2
8. Awaclus
9. theorel
10. silver
11. (iguana)
12. e
13. chairs

One more (counting iguana's /in). RR, since you're back, want to hammer?

[iguanaiguana]

I will play.

[Roadrunner7671]

/in

[faust]

!!!

[SpaceAnemone]

That looks like a set!! I'll sort PMs tonight/tomorrow morning UK time.

There's still a risk that some people who signed up eight or nine months ago are no longer free, but barring complications, let's aim to go into N0 after the weekend.

[SpaceAnemone]

PMs going out imminently.

Thread locked except for tags.

[SpaceAnemone]

We're getting so close now!

I'm still waiting on one or more confirmations from the player list. It's a bit inevitable that I'll need at least one volunteer to sub in, so please PM me if you're not already playing and would like a spot.

In happier news, Ashersky has offered to come on board as a co-mod. Please keep directing all your Space-Alert-specific questions to me, but trust him to keep me right on anything to do with Mafia and f.ds conventions :-)

[SpaceAnemone]

LaLight replaces Chairs!

It is highly likely that I need to find a second sub. Please PM me if you're interested!

Note to anyone who feels the setup is dauntingly complicated: silver gave a really good explanation in much better terms than I did, so please read that for reassurance :-)

[pingpongsam]

Can I be an honorary NPC?

[SpaceAnemone]

Can I be an honorary NPC?

Wait... is this some kind of offer to play the game? Because it would end this tortuous wait for another sub if you're willing, but I would want you to read the setup...

[pingpongsam]

No, it's an offer to make guest appearances in poor humor and generally make a nuisance of myself with a real promise to not impact the game with any actual analysis or insight into what's going on.

[SpaceAnemone]

No, it's an offer to make guest appearances in poor humor and generally make a nuisance of myself with a real promise to not impact the game with any actual analysis or insight into what's going on.

Ah, right. Well we can cast you as a space blob and you can post a wibbly message in the thread once the actual game is over.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting on at least one confirmation that may or may not be forthcoming within a sensible timeframe, and I'm itching to sub someone else in.

[SpaceAnemone]

... and at long last we have it! Skump replaces zxcvbn2, and that completes our crew!

[SpaceAnemone]

Welcome, recruits, to the Science Observation ship Sitting Duck! How nice of you all to show up. Eventually. Don't mind those armed guards taking up posts at all the doors; they're here for everyone's protection! Science vessels are expensive pieces of tech, you know!

By now, you should all have graduated from Space Exploration 101, and know the basics of how to find your way around an exploratory science observation vessel. As you know, the complex science observation equipment pretty much runs itself, so you just have to go along for the ride, keep the ship's reserves powered, and perhaps try to shoo off the odd hostile alien. Come to think of it, now might be a good time to remind yourself of the layout of your ship, and maybe swot up a bit on those notes you cribbed from the people who took the time to show up for class...

N0 begins now, and ends at 17.35 forum time on Monday 22nd January.

[SpaceAnemone]

Good morning, crew! I hope you found your quarters comfortable. Are you all rested and ready for your first jump to hyperspace? I'm addressing you now from the safety of our ground control office, and I'll be here to talk you through your first voyage, so you have nothing to fear! Just remember, there's a few-day-long signal delay in each direction once you pop out of hyperspace, and my office hours are posted next to your comms panel.

Oh, just a brief note before I hit this big red button to launch your mission: we've seen a bit of an upswing in science deniers lately, and there are certain groups who want to silence our valuable work. Please keep a lookout for such individuals in your midst, just in case any of them have managed to slip through the same rigorous recruiting process you've all been through over the past few months. Unlikely, isn't it? Still, do stay vigilant, keep an eye on your comrades, and try not to let them sabotage our dear ship. That could go quite badly for everyone involved.

And with that, let's send you on your way! Launching in three, two, one, *whoosh*!

D1 begins now and ends at 17.35 forum time on Monday 29th January.

Ship status reminders:
You are all currently located in the start zone in Upper White.
Use of lifts is restricted to one activation every four space-turns.
Both Upper Red and Upper Blue are available during the next Space Phase.
The pool in Lower Red contains two energy units.
The pool in Lower White contains three energy units.
The pool in Lower Blue contains two energy units.

Thread Unlocked

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 1.0

Not voting (14): Haddock, faust, Luckat, gkrieg, EFHW, LaLight, CheesyJelly, Skumpy, theorel, Iguana, silverspawn, Awaclus, e, Roadrunner

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.35 forum time on Monday 29th January.

[Haddock]

Boo!

We weren't supposed to do any Space-Alerty things during N0, right?  Cos I totally lost track of time and did nothing.

[silverspawn]

No, we weren't. I just asked.

In other news, I'm town! Isn't it great?

First order of business is to decide whether we coordinate our actions N1 or not / if we should claim cards. I haven't thought about it much.

[silverspawn]

vote: e

[iguanaiguana]

I sorta expected silver to have a plan already since he was really hardcore before the game started.

[Roadrunner7671]

Vote: Haddock

[Skumpy]

Questions for Fleet Admiral Anemone:

Scum NK doesn't count as a mafia-game action, right?

The scum who uses NK night 1 will go into night 2 with a 7 card hand, true?

Do all lifts have separate bottlenecks or is it 'one lift jams all lifts'?

What is the Tracker tracking? Mafia-game actions, or everything that involves a target (which could show multiple visits in a night)?

Are Lower deck actions affected by RB (or commuting in the case of monitoring)?

If movement fails (i.e. blocked lift), will we be informed of this (or alternatively, will we be told where we are at the end of the night)?

Does Tracker tracking no visits generate the same response as a) if they are roleblocked b) if the target commuted and c) if their action fails

And greetings to my 13 crew mates, some of whom I don't recall ever meeting at the academy. I'm Cadet Tanner Scarfoley; my specialty is in navigation. I remember hearing mutterings of sabotage, but I'm sure it's hogwash. I look forward to getting to know all of you personally, and may we work together successfully, accomplish our Galactical voyage, and return home alive with all of our findings!

[faust]

Woo this finally started!

I think it's a bad idea to fully coordinate night actions. The main thing is we don't want scum to know who's on the lower deck. The other thing is since  the order is only determined at the end of the Day, the amount of planning we can do is limited anyway.

There are some general things we should agree on though:

- leaving the upper deck is a priority. Everyone should play at least one lift as movement tonight.
- Upper Blue is not worth it. Don't go to Upper Blue; only scums go there.
- you should make sure that your actions don't get terribly messed up by having a blocked lift (using C actions  in Red or Blue expecting to use the lift is probably a bad idea)

[faust]

I sorta expected silver to have a plan already since he was really hardcore before the game started.

Yeah but he's scum and has to feign ignorance.

Vote: silver

[LaLight]

hey guys! Really nice to be in a game with you all again! I am currently on World Economic Forum, so the next three days my activity will be low. In other news: I don't remember anything about the setup

[silverspawn]

I sorta expected silver to have a plan already since he was really hardcore before the game started.

That would be less efficient because I didn't know my alignment before the game started, and the best way to play probably vary a lot between town and scumscum

[Awaclus]

I don't remember anything about the setup

Seconded.

[silverspawn]

And I forgot almost every detail of where which powers do what..

Red seems to be quite a bit stronger than blue here.

[faust]

I sorta expected silver to have a plan already since he was really hardcore before the game started.

That would be less efficient because I didn't know my alignment before the game started, and the best way to play probably vary a lot between town and scumscum

We have all known our alignments for more than a week. Except for Skumpy, who is excused.

[silverspawn]

sure, I could have read into it a week ago. I didn't

[faust]

sure, I could have read into it a week ago. I didn't

Any comments on my suggestions regarding Space Phase play?

[silverspawn]

I agree about the upper room, I'm still not clear on the rest.

[silverspawn]

I agree about the upper room

By which I mean that the upper blue room is bad

[silverspawn]

My first question was 'why don't we all go to the lower deck' because

By default, the scum NK can only reach those players who visit the Upper Deck of the ship during a given Space Phase.

 and the answer seems to be

S: Secret hatch: Scum may choose to play this room’s C action with “Secret Hatch” as the target. If at least Y+1 C cards are played this way during one Space Phase, the scum NK can reach players on the lower deck during this night's Mafia-Game Action Resolution Phase, where Y is the number of scum in the game. Use of “zone monitoring” in this turn-step does not block the scum C action here.

Next in line is 'why can't we just all go down and never use C actions?'

[silverspawn]

And the answer is 'because more than 1 C action can be played per scum per turn also it's hard to get down the ship.'

It seems that we generally want to have a lot of players in the bottom part, but don't want to coordinate who is there. That makes your suggestion that everyone tries going there sound good. If we attempt to use the lift in unpredictable rounds (not all in the first round), then scum can't math out who succeeded and who failed in getting there.

[silverspawn]

And your point about the lift is good, too! Full endorsement.

[silverspawn]

One thing we should decide:

C: Wiggle the Mouse. At least one player must play a C in this zone at some point in each Space Phase to avoid a computer lock-out. If this condition is not met, actions in one of upper red/upper blue will be unavailable the following night (random, announced at start of next day phase).

This is mostly valuable because the Cop shot is in the upper red. Do we try to get this done, and if so, how?

The downside of having a particular player do it is that it makes them a viable NK target. But we could assign the most scum-read person at the EoD (who hasn't been lynched). If it they choose not to, we'll know the following day and lynch them. If I'm not missing something, then that sounds pretty good.

[silverspawn]

There is also this

Block the scum NK, If this action is performed at least N/2 times (rounded up), where N is the total number of players alive, the scum NK is blocked in this Space Phase.

Which can only be used successfully through coordination; if we don't coordinate it, it's an action thrown away. But that seems too hard to do on day 1 where everyone starts at the top.

[faust]

One thing we should decide:

C: Wiggle the Mouse. At least one player must play a C in this zone at some point in each Space Phase to avoid a computer lock-out. If this condition is not met, actions in one of upper red/upper blue will be unavailable the following night (random, announced at start of next day phase).

This is mostly valuable because the Cop shot is in the upper red. Do we try to get this done, and if so, how?

The downside of having a particular player do it is that it makes them a viable NK target. But we could assign the most scum-read person at the EoD (who hasn't been lynched). If it they choose not to, we'll know the following day and lynch them. If I'm not missing something, then that sounds pretty good.

Well. You cannot just have anyone do it because people would first need to reach the upper deck, and lifts can easily be manipulated by scum if they know who wants to go there. So you would need people to claim upper/lower deck, which is pretty much exactly what we don't want scum to know.

[silverspawn]

Well. You cannot just have anyone do it because people would first need to reach the upper deck, and lifts can easily be manipulated by scum if they know who wants to go there. So you would need people to claim upper/lower deck, which is pretty much exactly what we don't want scum to know.

We can't do it on subsequent days, but we can do it on day 1, because everyone starts in the upper deck.

ok gtg

[faust]

There is also this

Block the scum NK, If this action is performed at least N/2 times (rounded up), where N is the total number of players alive, the scum NK is blocked in this Space Phase.

Which can only be used successfully through coordination; if we don't coordinate it, it's an action thrown away. But that seems too hard to do on day 1 where everyone starts at the top.

It seems pretty pointless. If N/2 town players are on the lower deck, the scum NK is virtually blocked anyway. We could do more useful things with all those actions instead.

[faust]

A good thing to do for scummy players is to go to lower red and use card draw on a townie player. That way, it is guaranteed that this player used none of the pro-scum blue powers that night.

[faust]

It should also be noted that not Wiggling the mouse has a 50% chance to be a super awesome move since if upper blue is blocked, Cop results are guaranteed to be correct.

[EFHW]

Reporting in for duty. More after my shift at astrogation ends!

[2.71828.....]

I don't think we should coordinate N1. But I am open to being convinced otherwise

[2.71828.....]

vote: e

I feel special

[faust]

I don't think we should coordinate N1. But I am open to being convinced otherwise

We shouldn't exactly coordinate, but there are some things that should be avoided and other things that should be prioritized, see my previous post.

[2.71828.....]

I don't think we should coordinate N1. But I am open to being convinced otherwise

We shouldn't exactly coordinate, but there are some things that should be avoided and other things that should be prioritized, see my previous post.

Yeah, I think theory talk is very important. We just shouldn't take it to the point of "I have these cards, you have those, let's do this"

Until like D3 or so.

[gkrieg13]

Here.  I had actually stopped checking the forum because I'm not in any games atm and had forgotten about this one.  I'm glad I checked this morning!

I agree with faust that there are things we should try to do and things we should try to avoid, but that coordinating actions seems like a horrible idea.

[silverspawn]

That depends on what coordinating means.

If we conclude that we want several things to be done we could coordinate like so: everyone randoms a number from 1 to 10; if they get 1 or 2 they do X, if they get 3 to 5 they do Y, if they get 6 they do Z else they do whatever they want.

[faust]

That depends on what coordinating means.

If we conclude that we want several things to be done we could coordinate like so: everyone randoms a number from 1 to 10; if they get 1 or 2 they do X, if they get 3 to 5 they do Y, if they get 6 they do Z else they do whatever they want.

Except what you should do depends on where you are in player order. We probably want to grab the Tracker shot in Upper White, but that will only go to a player that is high in player order.

[silverspawn]

Yes; we could incorporate player order, though.

I have a feeling that players won't do it because many don't like randomness but I also have a feeling that the optimal play probably includes doing it.

[2.71828.....]

Yes; we could incorporate player order, though.

I have a feeling that players won't do it because many don't like randomness but I also have a feeling that the optimal play probably includes doing it.

I think randomness hurts mafia a lot more than town early on. As the game progresses and we catch scum, we should get more and more organized. But random is good for town early I believe

[faust]

Yes; we could incorporate player order, though.

I have a feeling that players won't do it because many don't like randomness but I also have a feeling that the optimal play probably includes doing it.

I think randomness hurts mafia a lot more than town early on. As the game progresses and we catch scum, we should get more and more organized. But random is good for town early I believe

I don't think silver and you mean the same by 'randomness'. Randomness and being organized are not mutually exclusive.

[Skumpy]

You people are no-fun roleplaying-haters.

Kinda don't want to share everything I'm thinking until my questions about setup are answered, as well as

Does a disabled mafia-game action show up to the Status Print-out, and does it count against the 1 mafia-game action per Space phase limit?

In the meantime, the sneak peak of my ideas are: I disagree with everybody.

[faust]

Also, we should catch scum. Like this: vote: iguanaiguana

[silverspawn]

Also, we should catch scum. Like this: vote: iguanaiguana

strong case. vote: iguana

[gkrieg13]

blitz lynch!

vote: iguana

[gkrieg13]

We could do something with player order, but the problem is that not everyone has the same cards, so we can't actually plan what each person in player order will do.

[iguanaiguana]

I'm a town.

[iguanaiguana]

This is a Wagons! I can't get behind.

[gkrieg13]

This is a Wagons! I can't get behind.

Scummy

[CheesyJelly]

Hello everybody!  I missed us warping in, but I have woken up in time to contribute the following:
1) SPAAAAAAAAACE
2) I think the closest we should get towards co-ordinating is agreeing things like "Hey, it would be swell if somebody wiggled the mouse tonight."
3) Hey, it would be swell if somebody wiggled the mouse tonight.

[silverspawn]

To reiterate my proposal –

This night (and this night only, because it stops working once we're not all at the top) the player with the highest votes at the EoD should wiggle the mouse. There is no mechanism in the game that can stop them, and it is not a good target for scum because that player is the highest lynch target at that point, so we're glad if they've been killed. If they are in fact scum it's doubly good, because then scum has to do a pro-town thing. There is also an enforcement mechanism: we'll know whether wiggle the mouse has been used, and we can lynch the player if it hasn't.

[silverspawn]

Highest votes except for the player who's been lynched, of course.

[SpaceAnemone]

Answers to questions that have been asked so far.

1) The scum NK is definitely a mafia-game action, and interacts with other mafia-game actions. See the "Action Resolution" section for details.

2) Scum may make an NK instead of one of their Space-phase card actions. They may still play two other cards during the Space Phase. How many they go into the next day with depends on how many cards they played, and whether anything else affected their card draw.

3) The three lifts operate independently, and jam separately.

4) The tracker and commuter are mafia-game actions that are resolved in the Mafia Action Resolution phase, and operate on other mafia-game actions. They do not interact with non-mafia-game Space Phase activities, even if those actions are played with a target. Consider the Space Phase as a convoluted way of doling out one-shot powers, and the Resolution phase as what happens in a normal mafia game.

5) Players will be informed in their QT about the outcome of their prescribed actions. I will announce basic ship status updates at the start of each day phase, but these will not include player locations visible to any other players.

6) The only actions that show up on the status printout are mafia-game actions that have been won during a given Space Phase. If the action is disabled, or if nobody wins a particular one-shot power over the course of a Space Phase, it will not be listed.

[CheesyJelly]

To reiterate my proposal –

This night (and this night only, because it stops working once we're not all at the top) the player with the highest votes at the EoD should wiggle the mouse. There is no mechanism in the game that can stop them, and it is not a good target for scum because that player is the highest lynch target at that point, so we're glad if they've been killed. If they are in fact scum it's doubly good, because then scum has to do a pro-town thing. There is also an enforcement mechanism: we'll know whether wiggle the mouse has been used, and we can lynch the player if it hasn't.

Sorry Silver.  Missed the original proposal in my rush to catch up.  I like the sound of this.

[2.71828.....]

To reiterate my proposal –

This night (and this night only, because it stops working once we're not all at the top) the player with the highest votes at the EoD should wiggle the mouse. There is no mechanism in the game that can stop them, and it is not a good target for scum because that player is the highest lynch target at that point, so we're glad if they've been killed. If they are in fact scum it's doubly good, because then scum has to do a pro-town thing. There is also an enforcement mechanism: we'll know whether wiggle the mouse has been used, and we can lynch the player if it hasn't.

I never like dictating what someone has to do at night. That being said, not a terrible plan.

It could also be modified to "lowest poster" or any other metric we want. I don't know that "(second) most votes" necessarily needs to be the wiggler of the mouse

[2.71828.....]

I actually think I would prefer the person with the lowest post count be the mouse wiggler. Getting a bunch of votes D1 is not such an amazing scum indicator (source: my gut) and having the low poster get "penalized" for not posting much seems reasonable. They are also less likely to be super involved with the setup and thus less likely to know what they should do at night.

[Skumpy]

OK, my turn. I'm gonna get some serious backlash.

I'm pro-coordinate, at least mostly. If we do, then we don't have town doing things twice or thrice that need to be done once. Specifically, filling the pools and wiggling the mouse. As Silver said in 195, there's an enforcement mechanism; when one and only person gets assigned a task, they have to do it or else they'll look really bad.

Before I go further: The Lower White A (print status). This seems like a must. If we were able to get 2+ reports of this, there's a good chance at least one is coming from town. Meaning if scum were to try to use a Roleblock or a Cop Switch, they're getting caught. And overall, it's good to hold people responsible for who's doing what and get a half-track on where people are more-or-less.

Except what you should do depends on where you are in player order. We probably want to grab the Tracker shot in Upper White, but that will only go to a player that is high in player order.

And this is where I strongly disagree. The first players in order are the ones who know their lift movements can't be jammed, so they should be the ones to get down to the lower decks and charge up the pools - someone on the upper deck will get the tracker/cops sooner or later during the round. In addition, remember scum has the option to get themselves into the top half of the order, so assigning menial tasks to the first half will discourage scum from elevating. 

So what I would have in mind is something like:
Round 1: 1st Player in order lifts down, 2nd player goes Red, 3rd player wiggles mouse.
Round 2: 1st Player replenishes central pool, 2nd players lifts down, 3rd player lifts down.
Round 3: 1st player gets a Print, 2nd player fills red. 3rd player replenishes central pool.

It's boring, but it gets the job done, doesn't risk any lift jams, doesn't risk any energy exhaustion in red for night 1, and frees up the next 10-11 players (and at least 6 town) to:

• try tracking/copping
• try lifting to safety and getting some card draw/exchange
• try an upper Blue role to try and track scum to the upper Red...or just get it to work
• someone can go down white and get a second print
• someone can go to lower blue and try filling the pool, even though it's not as ideal as red

That's still a lot of options - someone's gonna get something. And if the mouse isn't wiggled or the central and/or red pool comes out empty, we know who's responsible. Also, I agree with Silver in #169 - Scum NK isn't getting blocked tonight, way too many variables to take into account.

The big question for me is, as gkrieg said:

We could do something with player order, but the problem is that not everyone has the same cards, so we can't actually plan what each person in player order will do.

whether everybody is capable or not of doing an assignment. I don't think claiming all cards is necessary, but I personally would like to know if anybody was dealt a really bad hand. I assume most people have options N1, and I don't think a few people with monocolored-and-lettered hands would interfere with schemes too much, even if they're lying scum.

I mean, we're mechanics on a ship for Pete's Sake. Mechanics work together!



The two other big questions in my mind are:
1. Do we all do a full claim every day, and if so, in what order? Faust is against it, I imagine. (after all, if scum is trying to sabotage actions and make night kills, there're gonna be gaps in history whereas there could've been a proven 3-action night. On the other hand, it tells scum where are we are and who's vulnerable to the kill)
2. We should be trying to figure out what scum wants to do tonight. Do they blow up upper blue twice, or try to lift down, or what, and how do we respond?
But these can wait for a more opportune time for discussion...

[faust]

First, I will reiterate that I don't think Wiggling the Mouse is pro-town. More thoughts to come later.

[faust]

[3) The three lifts operate independently, and jam separately.

That clarification was very helpful by the way. I actually wondered that, read the setup post, and concluded that it was supposed to say that all lifts jam at the same time.

Follow-up to some other answer in there:

Am I allowed to take fewer than 3 actions/movements in a given Space Phase?

[faust]

Except what you should do depends on where you are in player order. We probably want to grab the Tracker shot in Upper White, but that will only go to a player that is high in player order.

And this is where I strongly disagree. The first players in order are the ones who know their lift movements can't be jammed, so they should be the ones to get down to the lower decks and charge up the pools - someone on the upper deck will get the tracker/cops sooner or later during the round.

I don't disagree. But that means it probably goes to player 4 or 5, and I still consider that high in player order.

So what I would have in mind is something like:
Round 1: 1st Player in order lifts down, 2nd player goes Red, 3rd player wiggles mouse.
Round 2: 1st Player replenishes central pool, 2nd players lifts down, 3rd player lifts down.
Round 3: 1st player gets a Print, 2nd player fills red. 3rd player replenishes central pool.

It's boring, but it gets the job done, doesn't risk any lift jams, doesn't risk any energy exhaustion in red for night 1

Unless I got something wrong, the central lift would be jammed in your example at the time player 3 tries to use it. That is, unless 3 + 4n players use the lift movement in the first round, which seems like a nightmare to coordinate.

I agree that the status printout would be very helpful, but it also doesn't hurt to get two. It's unrealistic to expect all our plans to succeed, because the lift jamming can lead to you doing something you weren't planning to.

The two other big questions in my mind are:
1. Do we all do a full claim every day, and if so, in what order? Faust is against it, I imagine. (after all, if scum is trying to sabotage actions and make night kills, there're gonna be gaps in history whereas there could've been a proven 3-action night. On the other hand, it tells scum where are we are and who's vulnerable to the kill)
2. We should be trying to figure out what scum wants to do tonight. Do they blow up upper blue twice, or try to lift down, or what, and how do we respond?
But these can wait for a more opportune time for discussion...

1. The only one who benefits from us discussing what we're going to claim now is scum. That discussion should wait until D2.
2. What scum wants to do depends on what town wants to do. If we coordinate, they can sabotage. Otherwise they'd just wreak some random havoc.

[Skumpy]

Except what you should do depends on where you are in player order. We probably want to grab the Tracker shot in Upper White, but that will only go to a player that is high in player order.

And this is where I strongly disagree. The first players in order are the ones who know their lift movements can't be jammed, so they should be the ones to get down to the lower decks and charge up the pools - someone on the upper deck will get the tracker/cops sooner or later during the round.

I don't disagree. But that means it probably goes to player 4 or 5, and I still consider that high in player order.

Great!

So what I would have in mind is something like:
Round 1: 1st Player in order lifts down, 2nd player goes Red, 3rd player wiggles mouse.
Round 2: 1st Player replenishes central pool, 2nd players lifts down, 3rd player lifts down.
Round 3: 1st player gets a Print, 2nd player fills red. 3rd player replenishes central pool.

It's boring, but it gets the job done, doesn't risk any lift jams, doesn't risk any energy exhaustion in red for night 1

Unless I got something wrong, the central lift would be jammed in your example at the time player 3 tries to use it. That is, unless 3 + 4n players use the lift movement in the first round, which seems like a nightmare to coordinate.

No. Player 2 takes the Red lift, Player 3 takes the Central Lift. The Lift counter resets every round, so the only way the central lift could be jammed for them is if one of the first two players doesn't do their job. The only way for this to fail is if someone is unable do their assigned task because of their cards, but there's some flexibility if we know sufficiently in advance (like if someone can't do a Player 1 task, they can switch with Player 2). Of course, we first have to agree on a plan first.

I agree that the status printout would be very helpful, but it also doesn't hurt to get two. It's unrealistic to expect all our plans to succeed, because the lift jamming can lead to you doing something you weren't planning to.

And I agree, and in fact, I say someone should make an effort to get a 2nd. Even with a mislynch, there's going to be a lot of town doing the same thing as each other and fighting for lifts and powers and younameits and whatchamacallits tonight. So yeah, a 2nd printout is something that somebody somewhere can do. Sure, it could fail. There's a lot that could go wrong. But if there's 2 people who have the same story and can report the same roles, it's a good sign. Possibly 2 scum who are corroborating the same story, possibly one is NKed to try to raise doubts...but still probably an end good overall.

The two other big questions in my mind are:
1. Do we all do a full claim every day, and if so, in what order? Faust is against it, I imagine. (after all, if scum is trying to sabotage actions and make night kills, there're gonna be gaps in history whereas there could've been a proven 3-action night. On the other hand, it tells scum where are we are and who's vulnerable to the kill)
2. We should be trying to figure out what scum wants to do tonight. Do they blow up upper blue twice, or try to lift down, or what, and how do we respond?
But these can wait for a more opportune time for discussion...

1. The only one who benefits from us discussing what we're going to claim now is scum. That discussion should wait until D2.
2. What scum wants to do depends on what town wants to do. If we coordinate, they can sabotage. Otherwise they'd just wreak some random havoc.

1. I mean, we're going to need to know the printouts. We're going to need to know cop and tracker results. But I guess. Whatever.
2. Well, the SkumPlan will be tricky to sabotage unless a performer themselves is scum, in which, case, the suspect pool narrows considerably. Alternatively, (as I now am realizing) a scum going early could try and shift responsibility to a later scum, to do their task for them, but now there's a possibility that lift-usage would clog the efforts; going early is the only way to ensure success. As for past that...Scum has 12 actions tonight. One's a night kill. What would you do with the other 11, faust? It can't be all random havoc, not as long as there printouts to dissuade them from going after nasty game-actions and not as long as there's a threat of claiming D2. So what then do you do? Question's open to anybody, actually.

Also, can I get some more clarification on the Tracker? It seems that the Scum NK user could also acquire a separate one-shot power, or no? And if that is the case, would the Tracker see both visits?

[faust]

The Lift counter resets every round

Ok, forgot about that.

2. Well, the SkumPlan will be tricky to sabotage unless a performer themselves is scum, in which, case, the suspect pool narrows considerably. Alternatively, (as I now am realizing) a scum going early could try and shift responsibility to a later scum, to do their task for them, but now there's a possibility that lift-usage would clog the efforts; going early is the only way to ensure success. As for past that...Scum has 12 actions tonight. One's a night kill. What would you do with the other 11, faust? It can't be all random havoc, not as long as there printouts to dissuade them from going after nasty game-actions and not as long as there's a threat of claiming D2. So what then do you do? Question's open to anybody, actually.

Generally speaking I'm not in the habit of handing out strategy advice to scum.

[LaLight]

I think we should not even try ro coordinate wiggling the mouse. Scum would better kill the most suspicious person than make a no kill and giving them a free target is not the best idea.

[LaLight]

Someone will do it, someone will.

we need a hero

[silverspawn]

First, I will reiterate that I don't think Wiggling the Mouse is pro-town. More thoughts to come later.

You don't like cops? Leftist propaganda!

[faust]

Someone will do it, someone will.

we need a hero

No we don't. Why are you all so hyper-focused on wiggling the mouse? It has two outcomes, one that is bad for town and the other that is bad for scum, and probably to equal degrees. So why should we waste our time doing - statistically speaking - nothing?

[silverspawn]

Blocking upper blue seems pretty null to me, blocking upper red really bad and the cost of preventing it low.

[silverspawn]

How do you think preventing scum from doing... what? Using doctor? Potentially making cop worse? ... is as bad as preventing town from using cop? That's like saying ninja is as good as tracker. Ninja only makes tracker a bit worse.

[faust]

How do you think preventing scum from doing... what? Using doctor? Potentially making cop worse? ... is as bad as preventing town from using cop? That's like saying ninja is as good as tracker. Ninja only makes tracker a bit worse.

Guaranteed Cop results are amazing. This is what we're getting. Once blue is busted, we just coordinate to get as many Cop shots as possible and just run away with the game. Also this is not like a Tracker/Ninja relation; the mere potential of Cop switching makes Cops completely useless unless we have some Status Printouts, which is another layer of trust.

[faust]

When pulling energy, can I specify the amount or will it always take the maximum possible?

[CheesyJelly]

Someone will do it, someone will.

we need a hero

No we don't. Why are you all so hyper-focused on wiggling the mouse? It has two outcomes, one that is bad for town and the other that is bad for scum, and probably to equal degrees. So why should we waste our time doing - statistically speaking - nothing?

Disagree.  Scum always have more options than town because of their NK, so reducing the powers available each night is more harmful to town than scum.

Besides, according to your argument it can't hurt!

PPE:

I feel like faust is changing the reasons for his argument on the fly, which feels unfaustian.  Also, if a busted upper blue is as useful as he claims, I feel like town!faust wouldn't hand that strat to scum so easily.

Vote: faust

[silverspawn]

Guaranteed Cop results are amazing. This is what we're getting. Once blue is busted, we just coordinate to get as many Cop shots as possible and just run away with the game. Also this is not like a Tracker/Ninja relation; the mere potential of Cop switching makes Cops completely useless unless we have some Status Printouts, which is another layer of trust.

Ok, I get your thought process now, but I think you're wrong that the possibility of switching results makes cops useless. It is pretty unlikely that Mafia hits the right target -- 2/13 with one shot in the first night -- so according to the rule of Bayes, a cop result is still pretty strong evidence.

There's also deck monitoring, which makes it risky for scum to go into the blue room, so using cop switch is not free.

[faust]

Someone will do it, someone will.

we need a hero

No we don't. Why are you all so hyper-focused on wiggling the mouse? It has two outcomes, one that is bad for town and the other that is bad for scum, and probably to equal degrees. So why should we waste our time doing - statistically speaking - nothing?

Disagree.  Scum always have more options than town because of their NK, so reducing the powers available each night is more harmful to town than scum.

Besides, according to your argument it can't hurt!

PPE:

I feel like faust is changing the reasons for his argument on the fly, which feels unfaustian.  Also, if a busted upper blue is as useful as he claims, I feel like town!faust wouldn't hand that strat to scum so easily.

Vote: faust

... what?

1. The argument of your first line is not sound.
2. Sure I won't particularly mind if someone ends up wiggling the mouse, I just don't want us to waste our time on corrdinating it and thereby giving scum valid NK targets.
3. Which reasons for arguments have I changed? Please point it out.
4. Which "strat" did I hand to scum?

[faust]

Guaranteed Cop results are amazing. This is what we're getting. Once blue is busted, we just coordinate to get as many Cop shots as possible and just run away with the game. Also this is not like a Tracker/Ninja relation; the mere potential of Cop switching makes Cops completely useless unless we have some Status Printouts, which is another layer of trust.

Ok, I get your thought process now, but I think you're wrong that the possibility of switching results makes cops useless. It is pretty unlikely that Mafia hits the right target -- 2/13 with one shot in the first night -- so according to the rule of Bayes, a cop result is still pretty strong evidence.

There's also deck monitoring, which makes it risky for scum to go into the blue room, so using cop switch is not free.

Ah, the Cop switch requires a target.... who woulda thunk?

[faust]

Can I be an IC now?

[silverspawn]

So to summarize this debate, I see two possible strategies

1. Make it a hard rule that no town should ever go to upper blue. Try to have Wiggle the mouse be used every time and get as many cop results as possible. Lynch everyone who is seen at upper blue trying to mess with them*

2. Don't wiggle the mouse, have 50% chance of safe cop results per night, have players use upper blue at their discretion

But seeing where players went is actually hard, because one action only tells us upper or lower, and the other only tells us the color...

[silverspawn]

Can I be an IC now?

No, not really. I think you're only marginally more likely to mess this up as scum.

Actually does mafia have daychat? If yes you get a bit more town points.

I also just saw this:

You may also request during the day phase to be placed in the top half of the random player ordering for the following Space Phase.

How exactly does this work? Can every mafia do this every time and it always flies?

[faust]

Actually does mafia have daychat? If yes you get a bit more town points.

I already asked in my QT, and the answer was no.

[theorel]

Hey everybody...sorry I was out yesterday.  Sorry I missed so much early theory discussion, this is a fun set-up, and I think it makes theory discussion much fun.

Saying "moving blue is scummy" is all well and good, but the only way to determine if someone has moved blue is to get the lower blue C-action, which is the same as scum's enable lower-deck NK action, which means that we can't enforce it unless we move blue, but then we get false positives.
-Generally red is better for town than blue.
-A-actions are also better than B-actions.

Having any particular player designated to wiggle the mouse is dangerous because that player may have no "C" cards.  This could be alleviated if we claimed our hands, but that is a very bad idea IMO...letting scum know that any given player can't use an A action for instance is bad since that reduces the pool that they should target with the cop-flip.  Letting them know a given player can't lift is bad since that enables them to guarantee their kill goes through.

Our actions should depend highly on turn-order.  1st player knows he can lift, while 2nd and 3rd players might want to shift zones or wiggle the mouse and then lift as their second or third action.
Since we will know by the end of the night, I think there is minimal danger in town trying to do something on lower B and accidentally cop-flipping someone.  In fact, it's better than scum doing it, since town will announce that it happened and who they targeted. (nevermind just checked and Cop-Flip is a non-blocking action)  Scum can try to take advantage of this with a printout, if they can discuss that in their qt.
If a scum-player gets a printout will they have opportunity to share it with partners?
I think they won't get a chance to discuss it, and the same player can't cop-flip and get a printout, so they can't really sabotage our cop-results by CLAIMING to cop-flip the cop.  Although it does give them 2 chances to hit the cop (one on their actual target, and one with their claim).

All that said, I think some minimal coordination is fine.  For instance, I volunteer to wiggle the mouse during the first space-phase (assuming I'm not lynched).  The danger is, if I'm scum I can choose not to wiggle the mouse and potentially mess up other players using lifts when they don't expect.  But, I'm town, so I know that won't happen.  You'll just have to judge if the danger of me being scum is worth it, and plan accordingly.  I don't even know when I'm going during the night-phase at this stage, so even if I'm scum I can't plan to mess people up any more than if I didn't volunteer for it.  And of course, if the mouse isn't wiggled tomorrow you'll know I'm scum.

[2.71828.....]

Can I be an IC now?

For today, sure. Tomorrow, no

[Haddock]

Oh my god too much setup chat.

I simply can't catch up with this today.  I'll try tonight.

[EFHW]

Sorry everyone. You won't believe the tangle of solar systems we have to navigate! (Actually, I got used to this game not happening and forgot to come back.) I don't have time now, but promise to contribute something later today.

[faust]

Can I be an IC now?

For today, sure. Tomorrow, no

Tomorrow I'll be dead anyway!

[faust]

Saying "moving blue is scummy" is all well and good, but the only way to determine if someone has moved blue is to get the lower blue C-action, which is the same as scum's enable lower-deck NK action, which means that we can't enforce it unless we move blue, but then we get false positives.

Well, yes, but everyone who used the lower blue C action should have some information to share, so we could catch someone in a lie who claimed that. Of course usual claiming problems arise.

[CheesyJelly]

4. Which "strat" did I hand to scum?

If breaking Upper Blue is so good for town, then scum definitely want to Wiggle the Mouse to avoid that.  I feel like town!faust would have sat on that idea for much longer.

As an aside, can I just say that I really enjoyed your use of quotation marks.

[faust]

4. Which "strat" did I hand to scum?

If breaking Upper Blue is so good for town, then scum definitely want to Wiggle the Mouse to avoid that.  I feel like town!faust would have sat on that idea for much longer.

As an aside, can I just say that I really enjoyed your use of quotation marks.

Err... but not wiggling the mouse does not guarantee breaking upper blue. That was the whole point I made earlier... not wiggling the mouse is 50% good and 50% bad, so overall null. I concede that it's a bit above null knowing that Cop switch is targeted. Or it might not be... because status printout isn't as good if Cop switch is targeted.

[theorel]

Saying "moving blue is scummy" is all well and good, but the only way to determine if someone has moved blue is to get the lower blue C-action, which is the same as scum's enable lower-deck NK action, which means that we can't enforce it unless we move blue, but then we get false positives.

Well, yes, but everyone who used the lower blue C action should have some information to share, so we could catch someone in a lie who claimed that. Of course usual claiming problems arise.

Yeah, my only point was that if moving blue is scummy, then town has no way of reasonably detecting moving blue...so on that count moving blue is less scummy.
Additionally there are 10 town players, and 6 useful one-shot roles...now sure cop is better than doctor.  But if everyone goes cop, then we're giving up doctor for no reason.  Additionally, if everyone moves red, then that lift gets blocked and it's hard to move down.
I think players should judge for themselves, based on their location in player-order, whether they think they're more likely to manage to get to red, do a cop, and move down or if they'd be better off staying put in white, or moving to blue.

Some thoughts:
Various night-action possibilities:
Red-Lift-B is really good for protecting yourself from night-kill.  Either you protect yourself and recharge cop/commuter, or just protect yourself (or fail entirely because someone else does this action just before you in turn order and you're both blocked from lift).  But generally, I think someone that's concerned for their night-time health can do this effectively.
Red-A(Target)-Lift is I think an obvious nice action.
Obviously no one should use Red-with both A&B, since that would cancel their copping.
Red-A-A seems greedy...if you get shot we lose both cop results...so I recommend against it.
Still, it would be good to get that third-phase cop result...
someone could do B-Red-A.  Getting the roleblock and cop is cool.
C-Red-A is cool, but I've volunteered to do C.  So, obviously scum knows to kill me if I do that, so it's better for me not to do it (except then scum doesn't kill me, and WIFOM).

Blue-B-Lift is nice, doctor someone and save yourself (if you can catch the lift)
Lift-B-A (or Lift-A-B) is pretty good whether you make it lower deck or not, make sure to specify targets!  (actually any A, B, Lift combo is decent turn-1.)

Someone doing Blue-Lift-X would be good, just to get to the lower deck.  Blue-Lift-B gets a doctor shot if you miss the lift, drains energy if you make it.  Blue-Lift-C gets some information if you make it...and you can announce who you cop-flipped if you miss the lift.  Maybe Blue-Lift-Red is best though...puts you center-top if you miss lift, and center-bottom if you make it.  Both places where it's good to be.  You're essentially using your turn to try to commute...

That should be more than enough good actions for town to take, as long as we don't over-collide.

And I think that's it from me as far as theorizing good night-actions goes.  I'm happy to respond to questions, but probably time to get to scum-hunting.

[faust]

Saying "moving blue is scummy" is all well and good, but the only way to determine if someone has moved blue is to get the lower blue C-action, which is the same as scum's enable lower-deck NK action, which means that we can't enforce it unless we move blue, but then we get false positives.

Well, yes, but everyone who used the lower blue C action should have some information to share, so we could catch someone in a lie who claimed that. Of course usual claiming problems arise.

Yeah, my only point was that if moving blue is scummy, then town has no way of reasonably detecting moving blue...so on that count moving blue is less scummy.
Additionally there are 10 town players, and 6 useful one-shot roles...now sure cop is better than doctor.  But if everyone goes cop, then we're giving up doctor for no reason.

While there is some truth to that, it is only true as long as the blue pool still holds power, and these are only two units. That means that after the first 2 shots we take from upper blue, we'd have to redirect energy from the common pool to blue that could go to red instead.

[theorel]

Saying "moving blue is scummy" is all well and good, but the only way to determine if someone has moved blue is to get the lower blue C-action, which is the same as scum's enable lower-deck NK action, which means that we can't enforce it unless we move blue, but then we get false positives.

Well, yes, but everyone who used the lower blue C action should have some information to share, so we could catch someone in a lie who claimed that. Of course usual claiming problems arise.

Yeah, my only point was that if moving blue is scummy, then town has no way of reasonably detecting moving blue...so on that count moving blue is less scummy.
Additionally there are 10 town players, and 6 useful one-shot roles...now sure cop is better than doctor.  But if everyone goes cop, then we're giving up doctor for no reason.

While there is some truth to that, it is only true as long as the blue pool still holds power, and these are only two units. That means that after the first 2 shots we take from upper blue, we'd have to redirect energy from the common pool to blue that could go to red instead.

Oh, I reread the set-up while writing that post...each power can be used max-once per PHASE not per ROUND.  Yeah, Doctor shots are less useful then I thought at the beginning of the post.  We can get 3 cop-shots, 3 roleblocks, and 3 Trackers every night (and some commuters potentially).  So, yeah, I think it may be not worthwhile to redirect energy to blue.

[silverspawn]

Yeah, my only point was that if moving blue is scummy, then town has no way of reasonably detecting moving blue...so on that count moving blue is less scummy.

Ah, but the enforcement mechanism still works really well. Assume you are scum who went upper blue while pretending to have gone lower blue. You only go lower blue to check information about someone else. That means you claim to have such information – when in reality you do not. So all we have to do is make the people who have gone lower blue claim first, name their target and what color their target was in. If they name a wrong color, that can be counter claimed.

[silverspawn]

Cop is already about 4 times as strong as doctor, with the phase thing it becomes like 10 times as strong

[Roadrunner7671]

Yeah this is a lot of setup talk. I think I'm gonna reread the setup, which is a sentence I thought I'd never type.

[Skumpy]

I'll be back later. In the meantime:

1)...is anybody besides faust going to give me feedback, or is the ScumPlan just done?
2) So everyone's clear: we're ALL vulnerable to the scum kill tonight. Getting to the lower deck means, if you want, you'll be safe the next night (unless Secret Hatched).

[SpaceAnemone]

More answers!

1) Trackers will be given "no one" if their target did not take a targeting action, and "no result" if something interferes with their ability to track.

2) You may pass on any Space Phase step instead of playing a card.

3) Yes, scum may win a one-shot action with one of their other card plays, in addition to performing the scum NK. If this occurs, a tracker who targets this scum player will be able to see both of this player's targets, as long as they are distinct.

4) No, you cannot specify an amount of energy to transfer. It is always determined by the number of energy units available in the central pool, or the remaining capacity of the pool to which it is being drawn, whichever number is smaller.

5) Mafia players do not have daychat.

6) Yes, each mafia player may request every day to end up in the top half of the randomized player list for the following space phase. For statistical purposes, you may assume that the player turn order is simply re-randomized multiple times until a configuration is drawn which satisfies the constraint.

7) Information gained in the space phase (e.g. from a status printout) is returned to the player's private QT after the resolution phase. The phase immediately following the resolution phase is the day phase, in which the scum QT is locked.

[silverspawn]

2) So everyone's clear: we're ALL vulnerable to the scum kill tonight. Getting to the lower deck means, if you want, you'll be safe the next night (unless Secret Hatched).

Oh, I see why. Thanks for clarifying that.

This means that there isn't actually any downside to choosing a particular player to wiggle the mouse, if we want that.

[EFHW]

I'm caught up now.

I think labelling upper blue as scummy  is a mistake.  Weak visitor isn't great but we could decide the target ahead of time, if not who does the visiting. Doctor is good, especially if we start getting IC's. And besides, we don't want to give up use of that lift just because upper Blue C is scummy. Upper Red C is even scummier.

I see faust's point about not trying to wiggle the mouse, but I think that is sacrificing too much just to protect the cop accuracy, especially since cop switch requires guessing the cop's target.

I liked the idea of having players use random numbers to determine actions.

I don't think telling scummy people to do specific things will work, even for wiggling the mouse N1. Movement around the ship is just too uncertain, both because of lifts and because of cards. What if the specified person has no cards with the right letter? Or the person could be scum and claim to have no cards of that letter.

I think we should try to get actions, but not count on it at all. Regular scumhunting should be our main focus.

[EFHW]

2) So everyone's clear: we're ALL vulnerable to the scum kill tonight. Getting to the lower deck means, if you want, you'll be safe the next night (unless Secret Hatched).

Oh, I see why. Thanks for clarifying that.

This means that there isn't actually any downside to choosing a particular player to wiggle the mouse, if we want that.

I think Skumpy is wrong here. All the movement takes place BEFORE the actions resolve, so if someone went to the lower deck they would be protected that night from the nk.

[iguanaiguana]

If we try to coordinate or really optimize night actions at all,  we'll spend all day talking about how best to do it, then lynch a random person.

Which actually for D1 might not be that bad.

[faust]

If we try to coordinate or really optimize night actions at all,  we'll spend all day talking about how best to do it, then lynch a random person.

Which actually for D1 might not be that bad.

That D1 hate is getting seriously tiresome.

[Skumpy]

2) So everyone's clear: we're ALL vulnerable to the scum kill tonight. Getting to the lower deck means, if you want, you'll be safe the next night (unless Secret Hatched).

Oh, I see why. Thanks for clarifying that.

This means that there isn't actually any downside to choosing a particular player to wiggle the mouse, if we want that.

I think Skumpy is wrong here. All the movement takes place BEFORE the actions resolve, so if someone went to the lower deck they would be protected that night from the nk.

NK affects anyone who's visited the upper deck during Space Phase. Which is everybody.

[iguanaiguana]

If we try to coordinate or really optimize night actions at all,  we'll spend all day talking about how best to do it, then lynch a random person.

Which actually for D1 might not be that bad.

That D1 hate is getting seriously tiresome.

I think it is just hard for me to look for scum tells in a wash of theory talk. Not so for you?

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 1.1

Haddock (1): Roadrunner7671
iguanaiguana (3): faust, silverspawn, gkrieg13
faust (1): CheesyJelly

Not Voting (9): Haddock, Luckat, EFHW, LaLight, Skumpy, theorel, iguanaiguana, Awaclus, 2.71828.....

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.35 forum time on Monday 29th January.

[EFHW]

2) So everyone's clear: we're ALL vulnerable to the scum kill tonight. Getting to the lower deck means, if you want, you'll be safe the next night (unless Secret Hatched).

Oh, I see why. Thanks for clarifying that.

This means that there isn't actually any downside to choosing a particular player to wiggle the mouse, if we want that.

I think Skumpy is wrong here. All the movement takes place BEFORE the actions resolve, so if someone went to the lower deck they would be protected that night from the nk.

NK affects anyone who's visited the upper deck during Space Phase. Which is everybody.

You're right,  I missed that.

[silverspawn]

In regards to cards, we all have 6. The chance to have a particular direction is 1 - (2/3)^6 = 91,2%. The chance to have both a particular direction and a particular action is roughly the above squared, so 83%. That's not the worst risk to take.

[silverspawn]

Your idea of directing Weak Visitor targets actually sounds very good, I think. That makes me lean towards not ever wiggling the mouse, but either using safe cop shots or making particular people use weak visitor on particular targets.

[silverspawn]

It might even be possible that this breaks the setup to a certain degree.

We could do a partial claim – everyone could claim whether they have at least one blue card. Then near the EoD, we could vote on who visits whom.

[silverspawn]

... ah but we can't check whether someone did use WW. That's too bad. I was really getting excited there.

Still, there might be something. I'll think about it more...

[theorel]

I don't think your plan works beyond just checking whether someone used weak visitor.  We're limited by the batteries...in addition we would need some people in red and some people in blue for it to work (because otherwise we may have to cross the ship and get 1 total cop/wv shot on that night).
And of course, we'll need to recharge the central batteries.
And we're agreeing at that point to leave several players available for nks.

All-in-all I'd rather we just try to wiggle the mouse, but not talk about who's doing it after night 1.  For night1 it doesn't really matter who does it, but we should definitely agree who is doing it, since we sacrifice little by doing so (that player can still grab an action, or go to lower decks), and potentially gain a good deal.  I do think the best bet is for someone to volunteer for it, so that we know that player has a "C" card.

Anyways, I think our best bet for coordinating night actions is for someone to post what they think good actions are (so that players who aren't as keen on mechanics can play reasonably, oh look I did that already), and someone to volunteer to wiggle the mouse night 1 (I'll do it, unless there is some severe objection).

I mean, actually breaking the set-up really seems against the spirit of the game.  I personally think that excessive coordination will harm us more than help us.  Everyone announcing a weak visitor target at the end of the day isn't a bad idea, if anyone is going to use that action.  I feel like I'd rather get printout, tracker, cop, roleblock, and commuter shots.  and then get to the lower level to force scum to likely miss some shots tomorrow.
I understand the desire for control, but I think control ultimately really helps scum and hurts town in the vast majority of cases.

[theorel]

I don't think your plan works beyond just checking whether someone used weak visitor.  We're limited by the batteries...in addition we would need some people in red and some people in blue for it to work (because otherwise we may have to cross the ship and get 1 total cop/wv shot on that night).
And of course, we'll need to recharge the central batteries.
And we're agreeing at that point to leave several players available for nks.

All-in-all I'd rather we just try to wiggle the mouse, but not talk about who's doing it after night 1.  For night1 it doesn't really matter who does it, but we should definitely agree who is doing it, since we sacrifice little by doing so (that player can still grab an action, or go to lower decks), and potentially gain a good deal.  I do think the best bet is for someone to volunteer for it, so that we know that player has a "C" card.

Anyways, I think our best bet for coordinating night actions is for someone to post what they think good actions are (so that players who aren't as keen on mechanics can play reasonably, oh look I did that already), and someone to volunteer to wiggle the mouse night 1 (I'll do it, unless there is some severe objection).

I mean, actually breaking the set-up really seems against the spirit of the game.  I personally think that excessive coordination will harm us more than help us.  Everyone announcing a weak visitor target at the end of the day isn't a bad idea, if anyone is going to use that action.  I feel like I'd rather get printout, tracker, cop, roleblock, and commuter shots.  and then get to the lower level to force scum to likely miss some shots tomorrow.
I understand the desire for control, but I think control ultimately really helps scum and hurts town in the vast majority of cases.

that should say "get at least some players to the lower level".  I don't think we need everyone down there...but enough to make it tough on scum (or at least force them to burn actions/cards to open the airlock).

[faust]

If we try to coordinate or really optimize night actions at all,  we'll spend all day talking about how best to do it, then lynch a random person.

Which actually for D1 might not be that bad.

That D1 hate is getting seriously tiresome.

I think it is just hard for me to look for scum tells in a wash of theory talk. Not so for you?

Not particularly. But we have reached the end of theory talk mostly and should start to focus on our scumhunting.

Are you not interested in theory talk at all?

[faust]

Here's my current town-to-scum, to get us started:

silverspawn
gkrieg
EFHW

theorel
e

LaLight
luckat
RR

Haddock
Skumpy
Awaclus

Jelly
iguana

[faust]

Also request prod on luckat

[Skumpy]

Here's my current town-to-scum, to get us started:

silverspawn
gkrieg
EFHW

theorel
e

LaLight
luckat
RR

Haddock
Skumpy
Awaclus

Jelly
iguana

Ouch.


I still stand by my suggestion in #201 for assigning the first 3 players specific objectives in order to take care of the key maintenance, while allowing the rest of the players to have fun. But nobody's commenting on it and it saddens me because it makes me feel unwanted. Rest of this post will half be me restating it, half feedback on others.

Again, I'm in favor of:
1st in turn order lifts down, replenishes, and gets a printout
2nd goes Red, lifts down, and replenishes Red
3rd Wiggles, lifts down, and replenishes White

which also has the benefit of discouraging scum from starting the night in a higher position. Those 3 do their jobs, everybody else can go around using upper deck actions and/or trying to get to the lower deck. We don't need multiple people to be filling pools, but we need someone to do it, so let's do it at the start of turn order when it can't be stopped and when people can be held accountable if something goes wrong. I ate a fortune cookie today with a fortune that said to "Unveil your ideas and act on them", so I'm going to believe in that divine ethnic sign. The one problem: is everybody capable of doing all 3 potential tasks? I'm just going to come out and say that I could with my hand.


Wiggling the Mouse: Why this was ever a topic of conversation, I don't know. Someone needs to. There have been multiple ideas for how to make sure it gets done. I say we go with one, and don't even consider not wiggling - that's dumb.

Weak Visitor stuff: I agree, I think everyone claiming a weak visitor target is a very good idea, so long as they stick to it. Keep in mind it's easy for scum to use upper Red C to disable the weak visitor (and doctor), though this won't burn the blue energy. I think someone absolutely should try to use Blue powers tonight because if they fail and the blue pool stays at 2/3, then that means there was a scum who ended the night tampering at upper Red. 13 or 14 people are fighting over the same stuff - the less overlap, the better.

Roleblocker: Um, so I disagree severely with Theorel; can we all just agree to not roleblock for the time being? Best case scenario is stopping a NK...which could also potentially be stopped by a commute or a doctor. The risk far outweighs the reward. Not to mention it burns Tracker juice.

Status Print-out: Again....people seem to be underrating this; if at least 2 people are alive with print-outs, and if one of them is town, then we will know exactly who did what actions. No need to worry about Cop Switching because they'll be caught. It gives some insight into more-or-less where people are. It informs us of one action taken by certain players the night before, which helps narrow down who used the scum NK (maybe).

Trackers/Cops: Remember, there's a limit of one mafia-game action per player a phase and a limit of one A/B action each per round. That still leaves 3 tracker shots and 2 cop shots up for grabs for 5 people during N1. That's a lot of firepower, people can aim for those. Or some people might try blue. Or some might try to get below deck and use an A action or something. Whatever. Everyone has options, and will have more if the first few players are coordinated and do the boring stuff nobody else wants to do.

If anybody wants to come out and at least give me a "No. Shut up," that would be appreciated.

[faust]

No. Shut up.

I think we've had enough theory talk for everyone to have an idea of what good things to do are.

One thing though: You seem to be misunderstanding Status Print-Out. It does not tell us who did what action, only which actions were being done.

[faust]

I ate a fortune cookie today with a fortune that said to "Unveil your ideas and act on them", so I'm going to believe in that divine ethnic sign.

Also, this is my new favorite mafia quote.

[Skumpy]

One thing though: You seem to be misunderstanding Status Print-Out. It does not tell us who did what action, only which actions were being done.

Oh. Well, at least I wasn't the first to get something wrong.

[Awaclus]

In other news, I just read the setup. I'll catch up soon.

[silverspawn]

We're not done with theory talk! We haven't reached a consensus on anything, not even on not wiggling the mouse. So far we're at 'everyone does what they think' which I don't think is that good.

I still stand by my suggestion in #201 for assigning the first 3 players specific objectives in order to take care of the key maintenance, while allowing the rest of the players to have fun. But nobody's commenting on it and it saddens me because it makes me feel unwanted. Rest of this post will half be me restating it, half feedback on others.

I"ll address it now.

3rd Wiggles, lifts down, and replenishes White

Wiggling the Mouse: Why this was ever a topic of conversation, I don't know. Someone needs to. There have been multiple ideas for how to make sure it gets done. I say we go with one, and don't even consider not wiggling - that's dumb.

The number of rooms we have is not the bottleneck for how much stuff we can do. You wouldn't visit most of the rooms anyway, and even you wanted to, you can just go to another one instead. We have 6 cards, most of us will be able to go wherever we want. So the value lost from one room being blocked isn't that big.

On the other hand, upper blue being blocked makes upper red better because of the cop switch, and upper red blocked makes upper blue better because then we can actually coordinate the weak visitor thing (otherwise scum can just go to upper red and block the blue actions). This can actually be done fairly well. If the mouse is not wiggled tomorrow, I'll explain how. In the meanwhile, if you're town, don't wiggle. That's the thing I'm most confident about right now.

[Awaclus]

I think we should coordinate wiggling the mouse today.

[faust]

Sigh.

Coordinating Weak Visitor seems dangerous. At best, we get a 50/50 shot at one scum at the cost of 1 town death. At worst, lots of people die and scum just wins.

[silverspawn]

ffs I now wrote two posts detailing a plan only to dismiss both

[silverspawn]

Okay, Lifts, v2.

I agree with Skumpy that we should direct the first players in order, because if not scum just takes the first lifts. So

First player goes Red – Lift – B
Second player goes Blue – Lift – B
Thid player goes Lift – A – B
... if they can.

Everything else is up to each player's discretion, but do keep the restriction in mind. If p2 uses the blue lift in the second round, then p3 to 5 can't, etc. I think tomorrow we should do more elaborate plans with randomized numbers, but not yet. They become better if more players are at the bottom part.

There's no real downside to doing this because the first players are going to use lift anyway if we plan nothing, except then all three might decide to take the white one and fewer get there. Similarly, more elaborate planing is bad because a) then scum knows exactly who is at the bottom, and b) they can exploit the resctions to make our lifts fail.

And no-one wiggle the mouse. Any objections?

[faust]

Okay, Lifts, v2.

I agree with Skumpy that we should direct the first players in order, because if not scum just takes the first lifts. So

First player goes Red – Lift – B
Second player goes Blue – Lift – B
Thid player goes Lift – A – B
... if they can.

Everything else is up to each player's discretion, but do keep the restriction in mind. If p2 uses the blue lift in the second round, then p3 to 5 can't, etc. I think tomorrow we should do more elaborate plans with randomized numbers, but not yet. They become better if more players are at the bottom part.

There's no real downside to doing this because the first players are going to use lift anyway if we plan nothing, except then all three might decide to take the white one and fewer get there. Similarly, more elaborate planing is bad because a) then scum knows exactly who is at the bottom, and b) they can exploit the resctions to make our lifts fail.

And no-one wiggle the mouse. Any objections?

This is unnecessary. If everyone plays at least one lift movement, then the chance that there is a lift that's not used at all is extremely low. And this is the only scenario that your plan is preventing.

I am not sold that wiggling the mouse is so bad. I think mass-Weak Visitoring is a a plan that might very well end in desaster.

[CheesyJelly]

I'm pretty sure I have the cards to do whatever is needed tonight.  I'm rating high on faust scumsenses, so I'm happy to be directed to be A Person Who Does Things, just someone tell me what to do.

[theorel]

Okay, Lifts, v2.

I agree with Skumpy that we should direct the first players in order, because if not scum just takes the first lifts. So

First player goes Red – Lift – B
Second player goes Blue – Lift – B
Thid player goes Lift – A – B
... if they can.

Everything else is up to each player's discretion, but do keep the restriction in mind. If p2 uses the blue lift in the second round, then p3 to 5 can't, etc. I think tomorrow we should do more elaborate plans with randomized numbers, but not yet. They become better if more players are at the bottom part.

There's no real downside to doing this because the first players are going to use lift anyway if we plan nothing, except then all three might decide to take the white one and fewer get there. Similarly, more elaborate planing is bad because a) then scum knows exactly who is at the bottom, and b) they can exploit the resctions to make our lifts fail.

And no-one wiggle the mouse. Any objections?

I still completely object to no one wiggling mouse.  I think Red getting blocked is terrible for town, while Blue getting blocked is only marginally bad. 

Also for your plan to work 3 players must have both a lift and a "B" action, and given a random 3 players there's only like a 50% chance that they all have those 2 cards.  And you'd like them to have another card reducing probability even further.
Additionally, third player should obviously do Lift-B-A (or better would be Lift-B-B).  Since those central actions are going to be taken, and if central has 1 energy left players 1 and 2 are completely wasting their turns. 
Worth noting that since it's a coin-flip whether this works if they're town...and any of them can be scum, and no way is scum refilling our energy.  So, it would be good for some other players to consider refilling at least central energy, and maybe Red.

I feel like you're over-stating the ability we have to get around.  Moving 1 zone takes 1 phase.  Getting from Red to Blue takes 2 phases of the game.  Getting from lower red to upper white also takes 2 phases.
Now obviously we shouldn't all be going up the lifts to get powers, but some people should.  If red and blue are not blocked, someone can lift-power-lift, and be able to make a choice regarding risking nk again next turn.  If one of them is blocked, that choice is removed completely...for no reason because we could've just wiggled the mouse this turn.  So, as of this moment, I'm still planning on wiggling the mouse.
Additionally, if I'm one of the first 3 players, just pretend I'm not on the list, and I will not get in the way of the above proposed lift-actions (since wiggling the mouse necessarily prevents me from doing it).

[silverspawn]

This is unnecessary. If everyone plays at least one lift movement, then the chance that there is a lift that's not used at all is extremely low. And this is the only scenario that your plan is preventing.

?

The advantage of the plan over everyone does what they want is that a) more people will reach the bottom half and b) we avoid too many people using refresh. It's not about using every lift at least once.

I think mass-Weak Visitoring is a a plan that might very well end in desaster.

yeah... but no-one was suggesting mass WW. I think we can do nice things with forcing the second and third scummiest players to both the scummiest person and figuring out a way to make lying hard. We can check for everything, up/down, color, action, and even target (with tracker), we just have to figure out how many people we make do what and how we check exactly to make lying hard.

[silverspawn]

Also for your plan to work 3 players must have both a lift and a "B" action

No, for it to 'work' it just needs to have more players successfully going to the bottom half than a FFA strategy.

Your point that one replenish might not be enough is valid.

[theorel]

Okay, Lifts, v2.

I agree with Skumpy that we should direct the first players in order, because if not scum just takes the first lifts. So

First player goes Red – Lift – B
Second player goes Blue – Lift – B
Thid player goes Lift – A – B
... if they can.

Everything else is up to each player's discretion, but do keep the restriction in mind. If p2 uses the blue lift in the second round, then p3 to 5 can't, etc. I think tomorrow we should do more elaborate plans with randomized numbers, but not yet. They become better if more players are at the bottom part.

There's no real downside to doing this because the first players are going to use lift anyway if we plan nothing, except then all three might decide to take the white one and fewer get there. Similarly, more elaborate planing is bad because a) then scum knows exactly who is at the bottom, and b) they can exploit the resctions to make our lifts fail.

And no-one wiggle the mouse. Any objections?

I still completely object to no one wiggling mouse.  I think Red getting blocked is terrible for town, while Blue getting blocked is only marginally bad. 

Also for your plan to work 3 players must have both a lift and a "B" action, and given a random 3 players there's only like a 50% chance that they all have those 2 cards.  And you'd like them to have another card reducing probability even further.
Additionally, third player should obviously do Lift-B-A (or better would be Lift-B-B).  Since those central actions are going to be taken, and if central has 1 energy left players 1 and 2 are completely wasting their turns. 
Worth noting that since it's a coin-flip whether this works if they're town...and any of them can be scum, and no way is scum refilling our energy.  So, it would be good for some other players to consider refilling at least central energy, and maybe Red.

I feel like you're over-stating the ability we have to get around.  Moving 1 zone takes 1 phase.  Getting from Red to Blue takes 2 phases of the game.  Getting from lower red to upper white also takes 2 phases.
Now obviously we shouldn't all be going up the lifts to get powers, but some people should.  If red and blue are not blocked, someone can lift-power-lift, and be able to make a choice regarding risking nk again next turn.  If one of them is blocked, that choice is removed completely...for no reason because we could've just wiggled the mouse this turn.  So, as of this moment, I'm still planning on wiggling the mouse.
Additionally, if I'm one of the first 3 players, just pretend I'm not on the list, and I will not get in the way of the above proposed lift-actions (since wiggling the mouse necessarily prevents me from doing it).

This is unnecessary. If everyone plays at least one lift movement, then the chance that there is a lift that's not used at all is extremely low. And this is the only scenario that your plan is preventing.

?

The advantage of the plan over everyone does what they want is that a) more people will reach the bottom half and b) we avoid too many people using refresh. It's not about using every lift at least once.

I think mass-Weak Visitoring is a a plan that might very well end in desaster.

yeah... but no-one was suggesting mass WW. I think we can do nice things with forcing the second and third scummiest players to both the scummiest person and figuring out a way to make lying hard. We can check for everything, up/down, color, action, and even target (with tracker), we just have to figure out how many people we make do what and how we check exactly to make lying hard.

To do this weak-visitoring requires people to be able to do it.  And as of night 2 there's no way to guarantee that anyone can do it...I'd guess it is out of reach for about 1/4 of town, and only available phase-3 for about 2/3 of town, so good luck getting even 2 people to actually use weak visitor (besides requiring the cards to do so, which if someone spent their only lift or only A this turn, there's a decent chance (~30%) they have no Lift or A next turn).

[faust]

This is unnecessary. If everyone plays at least one lift movement, then the chance that there is a lift that's not used at all is extremely low. And this is the only scenario that your plan is preventing.

?

The advantage of the plan over everyone does what they want is that a) more people will reach the bottom half and b) we avoid too many people using refresh. It's not about using every lift at least once.

I don't see how it will make more people reach the bottom half. I very much doubt that too many people use refresh because most people won't manage to even reach the lower deck.

I think mass-Weak Visitoring is a a plan that might very well end in desaster.

yeah... but no-one was suggesting mass WW. I think we can do nice things with forcing the second and third scummiest players to both the scummiest person and figuring out a way to make lying hard. We can check for everything, up/down, color, action, and even target (with tracker), we just have to figure out how many people we make do what and how we check exactly to make lying hard.

Well I can always say "sorry, I don't have the cards for that". Besides it's hard enough to agree on a "scummiest person", let alone second and third. I also think you are underestimating severely how difficult it is to coordinate once we are in different parts of the ship.

[silverspawn]

Think about WTM for a minute. It either blocks UR (upper red) or UB.

If it blocks UB it means cop results are guaranteed sane.
If it blocks UR it means we can't access cop results.

If WTM is used twice and we have full access on two days, it means a player might go there twice and get an uncertain cop result both times, giving us 2 uncertain cop results. If WTM is not used it means the equivalent play is to get one certain cop result plus the next best action available. So two uncertain cop results are supposed to be more valuable than 1 certain result plus another action? No, come on. Even if you don't believe in anything useful coming out of WW, this is still not worth it.

The bottleneck for what we can do in the ship is turns and cards. Limiting number of rooms, a resource which is not the bottleneck, in exchange for better rooms, is a good thing.

[silverspawn]

I don't see how it will make more people reach the bottom half.

Because it makes the first three players go red lift, blue lift, white lift, as supposed to white lift, white lift, white lift.

[faust]

I don't see how it will make more people reach the bottom half.

Because it makes the first three players go red lift, blue lift, white lift, as supposed to white lift, white lift, white lift.

So what? Someone else will go red lift, blue lift instead...

[theorel]

I think you're both overestimating how difficult it is to get to the lower decks.  If everyone just randomly decided to use the central lift in the first round 4 players/14 would make it.
If at least a few players try to go red, or grab a Tracker first (or wiggle the mouse), then easily half of the players can reach lower decks.  I think people have enough different ideas of what's good that a FFA results in ~8 players reaching lower decks.

I think suggesting the first three players go Red/Blue/White, and when to use their lift results in ~9 players reaching lower decks.  Because it's probably a good idea for someone to try to grab a cop shot during phase 3, someone could grab the commuter shot, someone could grab tracker phase-3 as well.

I don't disagree with suggesting actions for first 3 players, I think it's a mistake to depend on it.
Refilling energy with first 3 players is good because we don't really want to double-up on it excessively (like wiggling the mouse).  But then if it fails, a bunch of our PR-shots fail...and at 50% chance of failure, that's more risk than I'm comfortable with.  So, we should try to double-up on it.  Thinking more about it, we should double-up in central, and maybe Red, but not Blue.  And I'll just trust that someone in a FFA will take responsibility for it.  Same as some people should go grab cop shots, and some people should get trackers, and some people should get printouts.  Some people probably lack A's some lack B's, some will want to be lower-deck, some will prefer to have a PR-shot.  Some people will try to get printouts but end up getting tracker shots.  I think it all works out in the wash.

[faust]

Think about WTM for a minute. It either blocks UR (upper red) or UB.

If it blocks UB it means cop results are guaranteed sane.
If it blocks UR it means we can't access cop results.

If WTM is used twice and we have full access on two days, it means a player might go there twice and get an uncertain cop result both times, giving us 2 uncertain cop results. If WTM is not used it means the equivalent play is to get one certain cop result plus the next best action available. So two uncertain cop results are supposed to be more valuable than 1 certain result plus another action? No, come on. Even if you don't believe in anything useful coming out of WW, this is still not worth it.

The bottleneck for what we can do in the ship is turns and cards. Limiting number of rooms, a resource which is not the bottleneck, in exchange for better rooms, is a good thing.

I absolutely think two uncertain Cop results are more valuable than one certain result + X, especially considering that an uncertain result is made certain by checking the other result...

By limiting the number of rooms, you are increasing the number of turns it takes for a player to get somewhere useful. Turns, as you yourself pointed out, are a bottleneck.

[theorel]

Think about WTM for a minute. It either blocks UR (upper red) or UB.

If it blocks UB it means cop results are guaranteed sane.
If it blocks UR it means we can't access cop results.

If WTM is used twice and we have full access on two days, it means a player might go there twice and get an uncertain cop result both times, giving us 2 uncertain cop results. If WTM is not used it means the equivalent play is to get one certain cop result plus the next best action available. So two uncertain cop results are supposed to be more valuable than 1 certain result plus another action? No, come on. Even if you don't believe in anything useful coming out of WW, this is still not worth it.

The bottleneck for what we can do in the ship is turns and cards. Limiting number of rooms, a resource which is not the bottleneck, in exchange for better rooms, is a good thing.

I absolutely think two uncertain Cop results are more valuable than one certain result + X, especially considering that an uncertain result is made certain by checking the other result...

By limiting the number of rooms, you are increasing the number of turns it takes for a player to get somewhere useful. Turns, as you yourself pointed out, are a bottleneck.

This

[theorel]

If we could guarantee blocking Blue, then I'd be for not wiggling the mouse.  But we can't, so I'd rather have the available actions.

[2.71828.....]

Hm. I have been reading all the discussion but too busy to get thoughts in. I still think people should do whatever they think ous best tonight. I love empassioned arguments about why wiggling is good or bad, but in the end.... if scum know with certainty that we are wiggling, they will manipulate their night actions based on that. If scum know we are not wiggling, same thing. The unknown is where scum get caught or are forced to do an action that doesn't especially hurt town

[faust]

Good. So what are everyone's scumreads?

[LaLight]

Good. So what are everyone's scumreads?

I caught up a little but the theory talk is very hard to consume in a limited time. There is like 4 people talking (faust/theorel/silver/skumpy) and others are super silent. let's vote: Haddock

[silverspawn]

if we didn't wiggle scum would wiggle because it's good for them...

[silverspawn]

vote: haddock

[faust]

Why Haddock?

[silverspawn]

because wagons!

[Awaclus]

Why Haddock?

Why not?

[faust]

because wagons!

But iguana is the better wagon!

[LaLight]

because wagons!

But iguana is the better wagon!

why?

[faust]

because wagons!

But iguana is the better wagon!

why?

Why not?

Err.. well seriously though. I expect town!iguana to be more engaged in theory stuff here and generally to be more excited. His opening post:

I sorta expected silver to have a plan already since he was really hardcore before the game started.

implies that he thought about how specific players will approach the game, this is a scum trait.

[gkrieg13]

I think Faust is townie, and I don’t wish to participate in theory talk myself. It seems like you guys have that covered. Going to do some actual scum hunting the next time I open this thread and am at a computer.

[silverspawn]

good case vote: ii

[iguanaiguana]

Unfortunately I am having a really hard time getting interested in this game. @Faust can you give an example of me being interested in theory talk? The narrative side of mafia has always been what appeals to me, so the only exciting post in this thread was Skumpy's to me.

[faust]

Unfortunately I am having a really hard time getting interested in this game. @Faust can you give an example of me being interested in theory talk? The narrative side of mafia has always been what appeals to me, so the only exciting post in this thread was Skumpy's to me.

I just think you are generally more excitable as town, or town-like.

[CheesyJelly]

Unfortunately I am having a really hard time getting interested in this game. @Faust can you give an example of me being interested in theory talk? The narrative side of mafia has always been what appeals to me, so the only exciting post in this thread was Skumpy's to me.

PLOT A COURSE!  SHIELDS TO MAXIMUM!  And then somebody bring the head of one of those no-good science deniers! *shakes fist*

[EFHW]

I still like silver's idea of spreading out the goals randomly, or maybe destinations. So we don't all go for the cop, or none of us go because we are sure everyone else is going. 6 rooms, 6-sided die.

[Skumpy]

First player goes Red – Lift – B
Second player goes Blue – Lift – B
Thid player goes Lift – A – B
... if they can.

Everything else is up to each player's discretion, but do keep the restriction in mind. If p2 uses the blue lift in the second round, then p3 to 5 can't, etc. I think tomorrow we should do more elaborate plans with randomized numbers, but not yet. They become better if more players are at the bottom part.

Problem with this is that 1st and 2nd are pulling from central before it has a chance to be replenished, so I'd say third should go Lift-B-A. Other than that, I like it.

[silverspawn]

oh, yes. Actually, I think we should move just swap lines 2 and 3 to have the white pool replenish in between the others.

[Skumpy]

Worth noting that since it's a coin-flip whether this works if they're town...and any of them can be scum, and no way is scum refilling our energy.  So, it would be good for some other players to consider refilling at least central energy, and maybe Red.

Central energy, sure, but Red will require no more than 4 energy N1, and one fill is enough if it goes through. Scum has to refill Red energy if its assigned because we'll know if they didn't, and nothing else could possibly prevent them from doing so. I don't know what exactly scum will plan for tonight -  probably some copswitching and shutting down upper blue...but I'd be surprised if at least one doesn't do something that's pro-townie.

Think about WTM for a minute. It either blocks UR (upper red) or UB.

If it blocks UB it means cop results are guaranteed sane.
If it blocks UR it means we can't access cop results.

If WTM is used twice and we have full access on two days, it means a player might go there twice and get an uncertain cop result both times, giving us 2 uncertain cop results. If WTM is not used it means the equivalent play is to get one certain cop result plus the next best action available. So two uncertain cop results are supposed to be more valuable than 1 certain result plus another action? No, come on. Even if you don't believe in anything useful coming out of WW, this is still not worth it.

The bottleneck for what we can do in the ship is turns and cards. Limiting number of rooms, a resource which is not the bottleneck, in exchange for better rooms, is a good thing.

Disagree here. Printouts will at least tell us if anybody copswitched or not. The odds are good that copping will be accurate N1, and the risk of a bad result isn't worth risking no cops at all N2. I'd rather assign someone to Wiggle the Mouse (like player 4) than to give it to Theorel or lowest-poster, but I'm less enthusiastic about it than I am about assigning pool-filling duties, and am willing to go with something else.

I don't see how it will make more people reach the bottom half.

Because it makes the first three players go red lift, blue lift, white lift, as supposed to white lift, white lift, white lift.

Plus it'll tell the next few players what's not a valid option (so player 4 isn't going to be trying to go RedLift on round 2 or WhiteLift on round 1)

oh, yes. Actually, I think we should move just swap lines 2 and 3 to have the white pool replenish in between the others.

If tracker shots are burned, then red might not get a full recharge in that case. So my final say is switch lines 2 and  3, and switch the order of the A and B actions. There, I'm done with setup.

What's the deal with roleblocking by the way? Are we saying 'don't do it if you're town' or is it fair game? Because I'd say the former, but everyone has to agree...

Unfortunately I am having a really hard time getting interested in this game. @Faust can you give an example of me being interested in theory talk? The narrative side of mafia has always been what appeals to me, so the only exciting post in this thread was Skumpy's to me.

PLOT A COURSE!  SHIELDS TO MAXIMUM!  And then somebody bring the head of one of those no-good science deniers! *shakes fist*

I mean, we don't KNOW if any science deniers actually are here. I met a lot of very nice, ambitious trainees at the academy, but we were told to prepare for the worst, so why not? My father had to work the spacedocks for 51 years and my mother had to worry about looking after 9 children, so I've always wanted to rise in the ranks and become an Admiral one day by learning as much as I can about spacestrategy. But for now, I understand I need to listen to and obey my superiors. Point is: I doubt anything amiss will occur during this voyage, but if it does, I want to help have a say in shutting it down.

[Roadrunner7671]

I've been lurking hardcore, later tonight I'll come on and actually contribute a little.

[iguanaiguana]

Hi RR

[Roadrunner7671]

Hi RR

Hi iguana man

[iguanaiguana]

I'm a town this game, what about you?

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm a town this game, what about you?

I am a confused town, but town nonetheless

[LaLight]

Wow RR is here

[LaLight]

Dama hard

[LaLight]

What i think that at least one of the hard setup talkers is scum

[LaLight]

Especially ss and faust as they are smart and can mimic good setup talk being the most contributors

[iguanaiguana]

I'm a town this game, what about you?

I am a confused town, but town nonetheless

Have you ever played this weird board game?

[LaLight]

Hmhmhm vote: faust

Why not silver? Cause i miss the guy and he’s like aleays like lynched d1

[EFHW]

because wagons!

But iguana is the better wagon!

why?

Why not?

Err.. well seriously though. I expect town!iguana to be more engaged in theory stuff here and generally to be more excited. His opening post:

I sorta expected silver to have a plan already since he was really hardcore before the game started.

implies that he thought about how specific players will approach the game, this is a scum trait.

Well, the last time he got really engaged, he wasn't town. He was survivor! I was hoping he'd get into the puzzle here, too, but Rewind was actually the only time I remember seeing him get into something.

I've disagreed with you about a number of things so far, but in my experience that is not a scumtell for you.

PPE: Lalight, I guess we disagree.

[LaLight]

I'm a town this game, what about you?

I am a confused town, but town nonetheless

Have you ever played this weird board game?

I did nat

[EFHW]

I'm a town this game, what about you?

I am a confused town, but town nonetheless

Have you ever played this weird board game?

If you don't like the game, then scum-hunt. Ask questions or something.

[LaLight]

What are the power roles and alignmanets in this game

[Skumpy]

Especially ss and faust as they are smart and can mimic good setup talk being the most contributors

Thanks. Wait...

[LaLight]

Especially ss and faust as they are smart and can mimic good setup talk being the most contributors

Thanks. Wait...

Oh yeah you too

[LaLight]

God i played every game of mafia for 1,5 years and god i have lost my skill after skipping 3

[LaLight]

Ok I reread the setup twice and there’s no prs and other alignments. Interestin. vote: Burning Skull’s favorite reptile

[LaLight]

vote: ii if the previous didn’t count

[Roadrunner7671]

I'm a town this game, what about you?

I am a confused town, but town nonetheless

Have you ever played this weird board game?

Nope, but it seems fun. I'm just a little behind the learning curve 

[Roadrunner7671]

Think iguana is town here.

[Skumpy]

What i think that at least one of the hard setup talkers is scum

On a more serious note: I've been wondering/suspecting the same. Not sure on my order of the other 3 though, especially since I've never played with them. Or like half the rest of the people here.

[LaLight]

Think iguana is town here.

What are you tho? If you’re scum i’m ready to unvote.

By the way it’s a lot of fun spectatin ganes knowing the alignments? i mostly mean Archetype’s one. After that one i thought i can obviously tell who’s scum. But here it seems to be less data to go from

[iguanaiguana]

Ok I reread the setup twice and there’s no prs and other alignments. Interestin. vote: Burning Skull’s favorite reptile

Okay so calling ss/faust scummy and giving a reason then voting me (top wagon) for no reason is actually scummy. Like legit scummy.

Vote: LL

[LaLight]

What i think that at least one of the hard setup talkers is scum

On a more serious note: I've been wondering/suspecting the same. Not sure on my order of the other 3 though, especially since I've never played with them. Or like half the rest of the people here.

I was pretty serious. I know for surest that faust and especially Silver are like Top-3 awesomest players. Theorel is a veteran i never played before with but read some games so the suspicion’s on him. And you! Awesome work in that game when we were both scum, i believe i never told you how surprised i was

[LaLight]

Ok I reread the setup twice and there’s no prs and other alignments. Interestin. vote: Burning Skull’s favorite reptile

Okay so calling ss/faust scummy and giving a reason then voting me (top wagon) for no reason is actually scummy. Like legit scummy.

Vote: LL

Oh man i’m confused, i voted faust huh, no?

[Roadrunner7671]

Think iguana is town here.

If you’re scum i’m ready to unvote.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[LaLight]

Uh oh ok. I voted faust for being active but then i got the reason to vote for ii so i a staying there

[LaLight]

Think iguana is town here.

If you’re scum i’m ready to unvote.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Hm?

[LaLight]

Ok I reread the setup twice and there’s no prs and other alignments. Interestin. vote: Burning Skull’s favorite reptile

Okay so calling ss/faust scummy and giving a reason then voting me (top wagon) for no reason is actually scummy. Like legit scummy.

Vote: LL

By the way are tou really a top wagon?

request: vote count

[LaLight]

I mean the fact that you are followin’ who’s the top wagon.. i do it as scum only

[Skumpy]

Think iguana is town here.

What are you tho? If you’re scum i’m ready to unvote.

By the way it’s a lot of fun spectatin ganes knowing the alignments? i mostly mean Archetype’s one. After that one i thought i can obviously tell who’s scum. But here it seems to be less data to go from

In that case, here's some data for you. I swear on anything you'd like me to swear on that I'm being 100% truthful:

My first is in listen, but not in hear
My second's in outcry, but not in quiet
My third's in unwanted, but not in loved
And my fourth is in common, but not in rare
What is my alignment?

[LaLight]

Think iguana is town here.

What are you tho? If you’re scum i’m ready to unvote.

By the way it’s a lot of fun spectatin ganes knowing the alignments? i mostly mean Archetype’s one. After that one i thought i can obviously tell who’s scum. But here it seems to be less data to go from

In that case, here's some data for you. I swear on anything you'd like me to swear on that I'm being 100% truthful:

My first is in listen, but not in hear
My second's in outcry, but not in quiet
My third's in unwanted, but not in loved
And my fourth is in common, but not in rare
What is my alignment?

I see what you did here and it’s so fascinatingly spectacular, how did you even

[LaLight]

You’re loan!

[Skumpy]

You’re loan!

Good. That means Awaclus won't lynch me.

[LaLight]

Guys, figured it out. Skumpy’s loan

[LaLight]

You’re loan!

Good. That means Awaclus won't lynch me.

So, you’re afraid about being lynched

[LaLight]

Anyway, going to bed, 3 am in Switzerland

[LaLight]

Don’t want to lynch Skumpy and Silver. Fine with others

[EFHW]

Think iguana is town here.

What are you tho? If you’re scum i’m ready to unvote.

By the way it’s a lot of fun spectatin ganes knowing the alignments? i mostly mean Archetype’s one. After that one i thought i can obviously tell who’s scum. But here it seems to be less data to go from

In that case, here's some data for you. I swear on anything you'd like me to swear on that I'm being 100% truthful:

My first is in listen, but not in hear
My second's in outcry, but not in quiet
My third's in unwanted, but not in loved
And my fourth is in common, but not in rare
What is my alignment?

A new breed appears - townscum!

[EFHW]

Lalight is not making sense. Are you at Davos, Lalight? Is it on a mountain, by any chance?

Who have we not heard from much? Luckat is being prodded. Haddock is frustrated. I had no idea Awaclus was playing until just now. CheesyJelly is relatively quiet. We have promises from gkrieg and RR.

Of course one or more of the busy posters will be scum. Just like one or more of the lurkers, as well. That's not a very informative approach.

Vote count please

[EFHW]

Unfortunately I am having a really hard time getting interested in this game. @Faust can you give an example of me being interested in theory talk? The narrative side of mafia has always been what appeals to me, so the only exciting post in this thread was Skumpy's to me.

PLOT A COURSE!  SHIELDS TO MAXIMUM!  And then somebody bring the head of one of those no-good science deniers! *shakes fist*

+1

[theorel]

Worth noting that since it's a coin-flip whether this works if they're town...and any of them can be scum, and no way is scum refilling our energy.  So, it would be good for some other players to consider refilling at least central energy, and maybe Red.

Central energy, sure, but Red will require no more than 4 energy N1, and one fill is enough if it goes through. Scum has to refill Red energy if its assigned because we'll know if they didn't, and nothing else could possibly prevent them from doing so. I don't know what exactly scum will plan for tonight -  probably some copswitching and shutting down upper blue...but I'd be surprised if at least one doesn't do something that's pro-townie.
...
Disagree here. Printouts will at least tell us if anybody copswitched or not. The odds are good that copping will be accurate N1, and the risk of a bad result isn't worth risking no cops at all N2. I'd rather assign someone to Wiggle the Mouse (like player 4) than to give it to Theorel or lowest-poster, but I'm less enthusiastic about it than I am about assigning pool-filling duties, and am willing to go with something else.

Or they could claim not to have a lift, or a B, or a red, or their only B was their lift or Red.  I am sure that if you look at your hand there is some combination of moves and actions that you can't do.  (because it takes a very particular hand to be able to do either Red or Blue + Lift + A, B, OR C).  Just because you can do it doesn't mean everyone can (I'm certain that I can't do one of the actions that has been requested of the first 3 players, though I won't say which one).

Anyways...Unless town magically coalesces around a strategy that forces someone else to wiggle the mouse, I'll do it, even though silver is convinced it's anti-town.  Although it would be nice to force scum to give up a "C" action on WTM, since it might hurt their ability to do other town-harmful things, it's so hard to get consensus on really trivial things, that I have no faith we could get consensus on some other choosing method.  I'm doubtful we can get consensus on people taking the first-3-actions of:
1. Red-Lift-B
2. Blue-Lift-B
3. Lift-B-A (or B-B).
(if they are able)
even though I think all theory-talkers think it's a good idea.  I just hope people will follow it if we keep repeating it.

Anyways, I'm just gonna vote for someone and hope to shake myself out of theory talk (ha! like I can stop myself).  vote: CheesyJelly.  There, I'll try to do some actual scum-hunting or something tomorrow.

[2.71828.....]

Regarding LaLight not making sense:

Dama hard

[luckat]

Oh, this game started. I need to reread the setup.

[LaLight]

Lalight is not making sense. Are you at Davos, Lalight? Is it on a mountain, by any chance?

Who have we not heard from much? Luckat is being prodded. Haddock is frustrated. I had no idea Awaclus was playing until just now. CheesyJelly is relatively quiet. We have promises from gkrieg and RR.

Of course one or more of the busy posters will be scum. Just like one or more of the lurkers, as well. That's not a very informative approach.

Vote count please

Davos and mountain indeed

[Awaclus]

I had no idea Awaclus was playing until just now.

It was a bit pointless to participate in setup talk when I didn't have even the faintest recollection of what the setup was.

[faust]

I had no idea Awaclus was playing until just now.

It was a bit pointless to participate in setup talk when I didn't have even the faintest recollection of what the setup was.

I know it's an unusual proposition, but you could just read the setup and then participate!

[Awaclus]

I had no idea Awaclus was playing until just now.

It was a bit pointless to participate in setup talk when I didn't have even the faintest recollection of what the setup was.

I know it's an unusual proposition, but you could just read the setup and then participate!

I did, but at that point you had already said we should stop with the setup talk.

[silverspawn]

Town on EFHW and faust so far. Scum on everyone else!

ii, tell me who is scum and why.

[Awaclus]

Don't tell him why.

[faust]

Awaclus, are you voting for anyone?

[EFHW]

Regarding LaLight not making sense:

Dama hard

Right thanks. What does loan mean?

[Awaclus]

Regarding LaLight not making sense:

Dama hard

Right thanks. What does loan mean?

It means Loan.

[CheesyJelly]

Soooo... I think my Universal Translator is broken because I didn't understand about 50% of the posts in the last 12 hours.

I don't have strong reads on anybody particularly (I've been out of it for a bit, and wasn't experienced when I was playing), but I'll offer anything that comes up that seems helpful.  Still slightly scumreading faust, but that could be because I have problems with authority.  I think LL's vote-switching was fairly typical LL.

I have nothing further to add on set-up talk than to say I'm still happy to enact any specific plans that we want, otherwise I'll blunder around the ship tonight trying to do something I think might be useful.  If anyone has suggestions for the kinds of things that would be useful, do say.  I still think that's a better option than trying to orchestrate specific individual's actions.

"Some people should do X, some people should do Y, nobody should do Z." - Then everybody acts based on their cards.

[silverspawn]

I don't think that's particularly good, but we can't establish a consensus, so that's what will happen.

Some people should refresh pools, all people should try to get to the lower deck, nobody should wiggle the mouse.

[Awaclus]

I don't think that's particularly good, but we can't establish a consensus, so that's what will happen.

Some people should refresh pools, all people should try to get to the lower deck, nobody should wiggle the mouse.

Why aren't we wiggling the mouse anymore?

[silverspawn]

vote: Awaclus

[Awaclus]

vote: Awaclus

vote: silverspawn

[2.71828.....]

vote: Awaclus

vote: silverspawn

Vote: Awaclus

[faust]

I hope you all feel better now.

[2.71828.....]

A lot easier to say who I don't want to lynch than build fake cases against people.

Don't want to lynch:
Faust
silverspawn
LaLight
Theorel
Skumpy

For now

[EFHW]

I don't think that's particularly good, but we can't establish a consensus, so that's what will happen.

Some people should refresh pools, all people should try to get to the lower deck, nobody should wiggle the mouse.

Why aren't we wiggling the mouse anymore?

I don't think we had a consensus on whether or not to wiggle. I was under the impression that Theorel was planning to wiggle.

[faust]

I don't think that's particularly good, but we can't establish a consensus, so that's what will happen.

Some people should refresh pools, all people should try to get to the lower deck, nobody should wiggle the mouse.

Why aren't we wiggling the mouse anymore?

I don't think we had a consensus on whether or not to wiggle. I was under the impression that Theorel was planning to wiggle.

In which case of course it makes perfect sense for all others to not wiggle.

[EFHW]

I don't think that's particularly good, but we can't establish a consensus, so that's what will happen.

Some people should refresh pools, all people should try to get to the lower deck, nobody should wiggle the mouse.

Why aren't we wiggling the mouse anymore?

I don't think we had a consensus on whether or not to wiggle. I was under the impression that Theorel was planning to wiggle.

In which case of course it makes perfect sense for all others to not wiggle.

Yeah, but Theorel's not nobody.

[EFHW]

Trying to narrow down my lynchpool, I'm looking at lurkers. Luckat, gkrieg, RR, Haddock, Awaclus, Cheesy-Jelly (though he is funny).

Don't want to lynch: Theorel, silver, faust, e.

[EFHW]

Also don't want to lynch Skumpy.

[Awaclus]

Awaclus, are you voting for anyone?

Yes.

[faust]

Awaclus, are you voting for anyone?

Yes.

Well yes now, I can see that. I get that you're not a big talker, but this kind of nonsense is why people have a problem with you.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry guys, really having a hard time finding the time to give to this game.  I'm hoping I will have time tomorrow, because I'm really busy today.  I'm trying to keep up, but there are a lot of posts that you have to actually think about, which means that I get easily lost while checking them with half of my attention.

This Awaclus is town though.  His level of stubbornness and ridiculousness is his townie level.

[silverspawn]

ok. vote: -1

[silverspawn]

That is vote: ii

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 1.2

Haddock (1): Roadrunner7671
iguanaiguana (4): faust, gkrieg13, LaLight, silverspawn
faust (1): CheesyJelly
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
CheesyJelly (1): theorel
silverspawn (1): Awaclus
Awaclus (1): 2.71828.....
Not Voting (4): Haddock, Luckat, EFHW, Skumpy

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.35 forum time on Monday 29th January.

[theorel]

Okay, my previous post on good night actions was too stream of consciousness, and I had a rule wrong.  So, let's try again:
Players 1, 2, and 3 should do the following in order (if you can):
1: Red-Lift-B
2: Blue-Lift-B
3: Lift-B-A

-For everyone else here are things that I think are good actions, if you don't feel like you can make good decisions yourself check below:

Various good night-actions (IMO):
-Red-A(Target)-Lift is very good.
-Red-Lift-B is a generally decent if you're later in the action.  If you get blocked you commuted to potentially block a kill.  If you don't get blocked you recharge the Red-section again.
Do NOT use Red-with both A&B, since that will cancel copping if successful.
-Red-B-Lift is fine if you think you'll be NK'd
-B(Target)-Red-A(Target) I think is fine (though you've got better chances of blocking a town-role than a scum-role, you could block a cop-switch or a kill.  Also you prevent scum from using the roleblock if you act before them.  Which is 1000% preferrable.)
-A(Target)-Lift-A(Target) is good.  Make sure you specify a second target in case you get lift-blocked.
-A(Target)-Lift-B(Target) is similarly good, especially if you're early in the turn-order.  Again note that you'll be roleblocking if you get lift-blocked.
-A(Target)&B(Target)(either order)-Lift is good.
-Lift-A(Target)-B(Target) is good for player 7+ also (specify target in case blocked)
-Blue-B(Target)-Lift is good IMO.
-Blue-B(Target)&A(Target) is similarly good, as long as we all know who you targeted.

The following are decent alternatives
-Blue-A(Target)-Lift same as above.
-Lift-Blue-A(Target). works similarly.  If you catch the lift you'll have opportunity to pass cards...not really sure what to do with that honestly.
-Lift-Blue-B(Target) is okay.
-Lift-Red-A(Target) (or B) is okay.  Target expected town, since if you catch the lift they get bonus cards.
-Blue-Lift-B(target) is decent.

And that should pretty much cover it.  Basically moving red is better than staying which is better than blue, but if we all go red we mostly don't make it to the lower deck.  I included a couple lift-less actions here.  I think mostly we should try to go down to the lower deck...but staying top-side get's that third-phase action, and I included the couple actions that work with that.

Notably you should definitely NOT:
-Red-A+B as it just straight up wastes the cop shot.
-Red-A-A because if you succeed and die you took all of our copping info with you.

[theorel]

What's with the ii wagon?  Why isn't there a Haddock-Wagon? I thought one was starting up. vote: Haddock

If one setup-discussing player has to be scum, I think I lean silver atm...but I'm not convinced that any setup-player is necessarily scum.

null-ish on the rest (maybe leaning a bit town on e).

[faust]

What's with the ii wagon?  Why isn't there a Haddock-Wagon? I thought one was starting up. vote: Haddock

If one setup-discussing player has to be scum, I think I lean silver atm...but I'm not convinced that any setup-player is necessarily scum.

null-ish on the rest (maybe leaning a bit town on e).

What's with the ii wagon is that ii is scum.

[CheesyJelly]

Cheesy-Jelly (though he is funny).

My work here is done!

[CheesyJelly]

#375 is a post I really like.  Thank you, Theorel.

II is a better vote than Haddock, from what I can see, but I've previously shown myself to be blind to scum!Haddock.

Vote: iguanaiguana

[Haddock]

Gaaaaaaddd.
Too much to catch up on.
I'll try.
The theory chat is overwhelming.

I should not be playing this game.  I do not have the time.  And I'm SO TIRED.

[Haddock]

OK, my turn. I'm gonna get some serious backlash.

Pretty self-aware.  Usually a scum trait.

Disagree.  Scum always have more options than town because of their NK, so reducing the powers available each night is more harmful to town than scum.

Besides, according to your argument it can't hurt!

PPE:

I feel like faust is changing the reasons for his argument on the fly, which feels unfaustian.  Also, if a busted upper blue is as useful as he claims, I feel like town!faust wouldn't hand that strat to scum so easily.

Vote: faust

I like the first half of this post, even if it's probably not really all that true.  (we outnumber scum, being the main reason why).

I have no idea what that PPE is about.  Was faust reading like that?  I honestly couldn't tell.  Too much pure theory.

If we try to coordinate or really optimize night actions at all,  we'll spend all day talking about how best to do it, then lynch a random person.

Which actually for D1 might not be that bad.

That D1 hate is getting seriously tiresome.

I hate THIS D1.  Way too much theory talk and I'm exhausted and too busy for it.

If we try to coordinate or really optimize night actions at all,  we'll spend all day talking about how best to do it, then lynch a random person.

Which actually for D1 might not be that bad.

That D1 hate is getting seriously tiresome.

I think it is just hard for me to look for scum tells in a wash of theory talk. Not so for you?

Oh look, someone agrees.

Ouch.

self-aware or overdefensive.  take your pick.

Ok I reread the setup twice and there’s no prs and other alignments. Interestin. vote: Burning Skull’s favorite reptile

Okay so calling ss/faust scummy and giving a reason then voting me (top wagon) for no reason is actually scummy. Like legit scummy.

Vote: LL

I dislike this vote quite a lot but I don't know why.




uhhhhhh,,,,,,,,,,,,,

vote: Skumpy?

[Skumpy]

Okay, my previous post on good night actions was too stream of consciousness, and I had a rule wrong.  So, let's try again:
Players 1, 2, and 3 should do the following in order (if you can):
1: Red-Lift-B
2: Blue-Lift-B
3: Lift-B-A

Fine with this, will look at rest later*. IF ANYBODY HAS A PROBLEM WITH THIS, PLEASE SPEAK UP! I'd also still prefer to know who can do what so that when things go haywire, people can't copout behind 'oh, I didn't have the cards!'. Or at the very least, like Theorel did, a "Yes, I can do it all" or a "No, I can't do it all". I imagine most people here probably can, and I don't think admitting it one way or the other reveals too much about the hand. The sooner the better with this.

*except the part about roleblocking - what exactly do we expect to gain out of roleblocking? Because I expect to lose a lot more.

I think I've got my first vote planned...I'll act on it shortly.

PPE: Hi! I watched a Dominion video of yours once! Thank you for the warm greeting!

[silverspawn]

maybe we should stop the theory talk, otherwise an angry faust might pay you a visit. Get it? Ok it's a bad pun...

[silverspawn]

Haddock's problems sound very real. That doesn't prove he's town but I think it's a more towny way to feel. He's no-lynch material.

[silverspawn]

#375 is a post I really like.  Thank you, Theorel.

II is a better vote than Haddock, from what I can see, but I've previously shown myself to be blind to scum!Haddock.

Vote: iguanaiguana

That sounds classic scummy. vote: CJ

[silverspawn]

If one setup-discussing player has to be scum, I think I lean silver atm

Why?

[LaLight]

SRy guys last day of wef and i will be available soon. Now too dama to even dama

[Skumpy]

Thanks a lot SS for stealing my voting thunder. Now it's not as dramatic!

Someone will do it, someone will.

we need a hero

No we don't. Why are you all so hyper-focused on wiggling the mouse? It has two outcomes, one that is bad for town and the other that is bad for scum, and probably to equal degrees. So why should we waste our time doing - statistically speaking - nothing?

Disagree.  Scum always have more options than town because of their NK, so reducing the powers available each night is more harmful to town than scum.

Besides, according to your argument it can't hurt!

PPE:

I feel like faust is changing the reasons for his argument on the fly, which feels unfaustian.  Also, if a busted upper blue is as useful as he claims, I feel like town!faust wouldn't hand that strat to scum so easily.

Vote: faust

Here we have a nice passionate complaint against faust...

What's with the ii wagon?  Why isn't there a Haddock-Wagon? I thought one was starting up. vote: Haddock

If one setup-discussing player has to be scum, I think I lean silver atm...but I'm not convinced that any setup-player is necessarily scum.

null-ish on the rest (maybe leaning a bit town on e).

What's with the ii wagon is that ii is scum.

#375 is a post I really like.  Thank you, Theorel.

II is a better vote than Haddock, from what I can see, but I've previously shown myself to be blind to scum!Haddock.

Vote: iguanaiguana

And then two posts later, the Jelly puts his faith in his biggest adversary.


Vote: CheesyJelly

maybe we should stop the theory talk, otherwise an angry faust might pay you a visit. Get it? Ok it's a bad pun...

Except that we still haven't decided anything...

[Skumpy]

SRy guys last day of wef and i will be available soon. Now too dama to even dama

Good to know it's been a productive trip!

[Roadrunner7671]

There's no way I'm contributing in setup talk, which I think is pretty clear. I'll go along with a plan or do my own thing that seems good, and maybe find some time to give the mouse a little wiggle.

[theorel]

...
*except the part about roleblocking - what exactly do we expect to gain out of roleblocking? Because I expect to lose a lot more.
...

roleblock can be taken precisely once per phase. (unless I'm super misunderstanding the setup)
If scum takes the roleblock, they will guaranteed block a town player.
If town takes the roleblock, they might block a scum player.
I think scum will try to grab the roleblock. I think stealing one of scum's tools and using it for town is good.

[theorel]

If one setup-discussing player has to be scum, I think I lean silver atm

Why?

Because you're giving advice I disagree with, and one of the potential reasons for that is that you're scum.  This setup is opaque enough that I think scum could easily give bad advice disguised as trying to help the town.
As I noted, I don't actually think you're scum, I actually think you're just town with a different perspective on the setup that I happen to disagree with.  But it's certainly possible that you're scum giving bad advice.  It's also possible that you're scum giving what you think is good advice (same applies to skumpy).  But none of us actually has to be scum.

[theorel]

Okay, so faust has decided that ii is scum, and he doesn't need reasons just a tunnel.
(Looking back, his opinion is that ii should be more involved in theory-talk?  Which ii then denies...does anyone familiar with ii's meta have corroboration on this?)

Other people just think he's a good lynch? For no reason at all?  C'mon people if he's scum sell me on it.  If he's not scum, find scum.  Random declarations don't cut it.

At least I know why CheesyJelly is being voted for.  And...well, it's not a bad reason.  It seems like he's following the authority that he's suspicious of.  Of course it seems that way because he didn't actually give a reason for his vote.  He also jumped on the Haddock v. iguana thing, which as far as I can tell is pretty much random.

Okay, I can go back to my (formerly 100% random) vote of vote: CheesyJelly.

[faust]

It seems like he's following the authority that he's suspicious of.

That's just how government works!

[EFHW]

please play back the log of our stated concerns about science deniers!

[EFHW]

sorry, I was off shift and didn't see it.

[iguanaiguana]

I intend to get to this but I also intend to enjoy this weekend because this past week was pretty awful for me.

@silver Really I do not know who is scum except maybe LL. I will get back to this, read the game and share more thoughts before deadline.

[CheesyJelly]

Voting for the same person that faust is voting for is not the same as following his authority.  Faust doesn't own that wagon.  I've contributed little to set-up talk or theory, so I'm going to contribute my vote, and a wagon of one helps nobody.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 1.3

Haddock (1): Roadrunner7671
iguanaiguana (4): faust, gkrieg13, LaLight, CheesyJelly
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
silverspawn (1): Awaclus
Awaclus (1): 2.71828.....
Skumpy (1): Haddock
CheesyJelly (3): silverspawn, Skumpy, theorel
Not Voting (2): Luckat, EFHW

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.35 forum time on Monday 29th January.

[2.71828.....]

Hm. Deadline is actually fairly soon.

I like the cases on CJ better than others

Vote: CJ

[faust]

Voting for the same person that faust is voting for is not the same as following his authority.  Faust doesn't own that wagon.  I've contributed little to set-up talk or theory, so I'm going to contribute my vote, and a wagon of one helps nobody.

I've gotta say that I found that whole case on you super fabricated. And I mean, i scumread you before. now i kinda don't want to lynch you anymore.

[silverspawn]

I think it's better than the case on ii

[EFHW]

"Each player may only gain one single mafia-game action shot (e.g. cop, doctor) per Space Phase (not per round). Subsequent attempts to gain any type of shot will be treated as a failed card action"

Regarding Theorel's 375, if someone's first action has a good chance of going through, they shouldn't specify a second action because from the above quote it sounds like they could end up blocking someone who hasn't done an action yet.

What is a failed card action? Does that mean no one else can use that action that round? I couldn't find this in the setup info. Also, do you have to play 3 cards?

[EFHW]

Also, if town gets the roleblock they should definitely consider not using it, at least N1, unless they have a strong scumread.

[EFHW]

Voting for the same person that faust is voting for is not the same as following his authority.  Faust doesn't own that wagon.  I've contributed little to set-up talk or theory, so I'm going to contribute my vote, and a wagon of one helps nobody.

I find this justification kind of lame. Cheesy Jelly voted when any wagon could still become a going concern. The closer we get to deadline without new wagons emerging, the more committed we are to existing wagons.

This makes me want to support a one vote wagon, but I don't have cases better than this one. vote: CheesyJelly

[silverspawn]

Let's start another. vote: e

[EFHW]

Let's start another. vote: e

For any reason other than random?

[EFHW]

@luckat, if you're not going to play, ask to be subbed out. Otherwise you'll probably get mod-killed.

[silverspawn]

He's not a leading wagon and he's non-present.

Which is true for others also, but still.

[Awaclus]

Vote: e is better than CJ at the moment.

[EFHW]

He's not a leading wagon and he's non-present.

Which is true for others also, but still.

It's not really a scumtell for e. He was non-present as IC!

[Roadrunner7671]

I don't really like CJ or e at the moment. Let me find an alternative.

[Roadrunner7671]

Lalight, Haddock and gkreig seem to be my three favorite choices, in that order.

[Awaclus]

I don't really like CJ or e at the moment.

Then you should support lynching them! Especially e.

[faust]

I don't really like CJ or e at the moment. Let me find an alternative.

iguana is an alternative.

[faust]

Everyone seems very willing to forget that for some reason.

[Roadrunner7671]

I don't really like CJ or e at the moment.

Then you should support lynching them! Especially e.

Wait I meant...never mind. No point in taking the bait.

[Roadrunner7671]

I don't really like CJ or e at the moment. Let me find an alternative.

iguana is an alternative.

Not really for me, I have a trusting nature towards that reptile.

[faust]

Well, vote: RR

[Roadrunner7671]

Well, vote: RR

Well, nothing I can do about that.

[Roadrunner7671]

At L-1 should you claim the cards you have?

[Haddock]

I'm happy with either a CJ or an ii lynch, but if those are our options I prefer ii, CJ is too new to be accurately readable. 

I'll go there when it comes to it.  Deadline is actually scarily soon now.

[Skumpy]

Voting for the same person that faust is voting for is not the same as following his authority.  Faust doesn't own that wagon.  I've contributed little to set-up talk or theory, so I'm going to contribute my vote, and a wagon of one helps nobody.

I've gotta say that I found that whole case on you super fabricated. And I mean, i scumread you before. now i kinda don't want to lynch you anymore.

You're allowed to suspect me of science denying, it's a free spaceship. Let's be clear here: of course it's a stretch. Of course it's a weak case. There's no such thing as a good case D1. Whoever we lynch is going to be town. I'd give my argument a 2/10 on the convincingosity meter. Everything else gets a 1, maybe a 1.5.

Also, if town gets the roleblock they should definitely consider not using it, at least N1, unless they have a strong scumread.

First off: yeah, Theorel's probably right about this. But the roleblock has to be targeted. If I got it, I would probably roleblock a player early in the order because they're the ones who shouldn't be using a power

Which reminds me: How does roleblocking the roleblockers work?

At L-1 should you claim the cards you have?

Don't see how that helps.

As per the new e wagon: On the one hand, it probably would've been my next option. On the same hand, I do have townreads on silver and Awaclus. On the other hand, Awaclus never votes correctly.

Question for Silver: So what's your opinion on e voting for cheesy?

Between CJ, e, and ii, I could vote for the first two. Of course they're town, and of course ii is scum. Or scum's gotten no votes yet. It's always the person you most trust.

[Skumpy]

Y'know what? I like unexpected changes.

vote: e

[CheesyJelly]

At L-1 should you claim the cards you have?

I can't see why that's useful?

[Roadrunner7671]

At L-1 should you claim the cards you have?

I can't see why that's useful?

Can you see why it's un-useful?

[silverspawn]

Question for Silver: So what's your opinion on e voting for cheesy?

That was what inspired my vote.

[LaLight]

Y'know what? I like unexpected changes.

vote: e

I am home and I don’t like this. Were you voting for ii?

[Awaclus]

On the other hand, Awaclus never votes correctly.

That's a lie. Vote: Skumpy

[Skumpy]

Y'know what? I like unexpected changes.

vote: e

I am home and I don’t like this. Were you voting for ii?

Cheesy. The lynch is never right D1. Never. NevaNevaNeva. It doesn't matter who I vote, they're gonna be town.

On the other hand, Awaclus never votes correctly.

That's a lie. Vote: Skumpy

This is one the funniest "I'll show you!" moments in the history of Western civilization. If you want to prove my point, be my guest.

[Awaclus]

It doesn't matter who I vote, they're gonna be town.

So you won't bus your partners?

[LaLight]

vote: skumpy

[Roadrunner7671]

Vote: Skumpy
I don't like voting right after Lalight but I also don't like skumpy's post. At all.

[LaLight]

Vote: Skumpy
I don't like voting right after Lalight but I also don't like skumpy's post. At all.

what's wrong with me?

[Skumpy]

I mean, it's a mathematic impossibility of me getting scum thrice in a row. In any event, I'm sorry for being active and giving you something to use against me. 

Normally, I'd complain a lot. But as it is, I kinda wanna get lynched, just to see how it feels.

Also....I mostly /inned just as a favor to Space. I wanted to take a break from mafia for a while, but I thought it was dumb that so many people were being jerks about not joining. So I decided 10 months was enough, and Cadet Scarfoley came along for the ride. Point is: lynching me is a very tricky way of me starting the game up without me having to be involved longer than a week 

Of course, if I'm not lynched, you can disregard the entire previous paragraph.

[iguanaiguana]

What's scummy about Skumpy's posts? Need to look at e and CJ.

[iguanaiguana]

The thing about LAlight is that he can always say some words that look towny in every game.  This is why he's rarely lynched. So you have to look at his votes. And I think his voting has been scummy this game more than other players. Could other people at least look at it?

[SpaceAnemone]

What is a failed card action? Does that mean no one else can use that action that round? I couldn't find this in the setup info. Also, do you have to play 3 cards?

A failed action is one in which the player's intended aim is not allowed, so the card play does not result in an action. For example, if a player plays a lift, but the lift is still jammed from its previous activation, this counts as a failed action. It does not reset the counter for when the lift becomes available again, and therefore does not directly affect other players' ability to play cards.

Similarly, playing for a second Mafia-power-shot after having won one already in an earlier turn within a Space Phase is disallowed. The card is used up, but no energy is taken from the pool, and a subsequent player who does not already hold a one-shot power may still gain it successfully that turn.

Pretty sure I answered the three cards question before. You may pass on any given turn.

Which reminds me: How does roleblocking the roleblockers work?

Where necessary, the randomized player turn order will be used to resolve resolution order within a given tier of the resolution order list.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 1.4

iguanaiguana (3): gkrieg13, LaLight, CheesyJelly
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
Skumpy (3): Haddock, Awaclus, Roadrunner7671
CheesyJelly (3): theorel, 2.71828....., EFHW
2.71828..... (2): silverspawn, Skumpy
Roadrunner7671 (1): faust
Not Voting (1): Luckat

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.35 forum time on Monday 29th January.

[iguanaiguana]

I get Faust's case on me and I have lurked as scum before because I was overwhelmed as scum before. But actually I got over that and I was really really active as scum in Rewind and Breaking Bad, both of my last two games.

This game I felt overwhelmed because it's based on a board game I don't know how to play well and everyone was talking about how to do it. So I lurked because I really didn't know what to add.

Faust's case on me isn't bad as in he is scummy for making it, it's just out of date.

Sorry it took so long to respond to it. IRL sucked for a bit there.

[LaLight]

Vote Count 1.4

iguanaiguana (3): gkrieg13, LaLight, CheesyJelly
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
Skumpy (3): Haddock, Awaclus, Roadrunner7671
CheesyJelly (3): theorel, 2.71828....., EFHW
2.71828..... (2): silverspawn, Skumpy
Roadrunner7671 (1): faust
Not Voting (1): Luckat

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.35 forum time on Monday 29th January.

I voted for skumpy.

For ii: i’m always lynched as scum

[gkrieg13]

vote: CJ

Haven't had the time to get back to this.  I'm hoping to be less busy tomorrow, but no promises.  In my attempting to follow along he looks scummier than iguana.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 1.5

LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): CheesyJelly
Skumpy (4): Haddock, Awaclus, LaLight, Roadrunner7671
CheesyJelly (4): theorel, 2.71828....., EFHW, gkrieg13
2.71828..... (2): silverspawn, Skumpy
Roadrunner7671 (1): faust
Not Voting (1): Luckat

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.35 forum time on Monday 29th January.

[faust]

What's scummy about Skumpy's posts? Need to look at e and CJ.

Nothing.

[faust]

The thing about LAlight is that he can always say some words that look towny in every game.  This is why he's rarely lynched. So you have to look at his votes. And I think his voting has been scummy this game more than other players. Could other people at least look at it?

That's not true at all... LaLight is super obvious as any alignment, and the only thing obfuscating this here is that he was drunk for a majority of his posts.

[faust]

Well, you know, let's build a case on RR, because as usual you will ignore my suspcions until I post some rambling post with a lot of quotes, after which everyone suddenly decides it's a good idea to sheep me. Sometimes I wish you could just assume that I made such a post whenever I vote for someone...

I don't really like CJ or e at the moment. Let me find an alternative.

"I think it will look rather scummy for me to join the main wagons at this stage."

Lalight, Haddock and gkreig seem to be my three favorite choices, in that order.

"Let's list a bunch of people that have been under suspicion already and see where that goes."

I don't really like CJ or e at the moment. Let me find an alternative.

iguana is an alternative.

Not really for me, I have a trusting nature towards that reptile.

"Here's an argument for my stance that does not require me to express any opinion about this game."

At L-1 should you claim the cards you have?

"Oh, someone voted me. Let#s distract everyone with a completely pointless theory discussion."

[faust]

Weak Doctor: EFHW

everyone should do this now.

[faust]

*Weak Visitor, i mean. You get it.

[silverspawn]

I would agree with the case on RR if it was anyone else who did this stuff

Weak Doctor: EFHW

everyone should do this now.

Uh, what? Do you want us to WW her or do you want to force her to WW someone?

[EFHW]

Weak Doctor: EFHW

everyone should do this now.

I will prepare some tea and marzipan! (aka space rations #73). I will reciprocate by visiting you should the opportunity arise.

PPE: Why are we saying WW instead of WV?

[EFHW]

Well, you know, let's build a case on RR, because as usual you will ignore my suspcions until I post some rambling post with a lot of quotes, after which everyone suddenly decides it's a good idea to sheep me. Sometimes I wish you could just assume that I made such a post whenever I vote for someone .... [/unquote]

Seriously?

[Skumpy]

It doesn't matter who I vote, they're gonna be town.

So you won't bus your partners?

You know firsthand that that's not true. I'm probably more likely to vote scum as Skum tbh.

The thing about LAlight is that he can always say some words that look towny in every game.  This is why he's rarely lynched. So you have to look at his votes. And I think his voting has been scummy this game more than other players. Could other people at least look at it?

That's not true at all... LaLight is super obvious as any alignment, and the only thing obfuscating this here is that he was drunk for a majority of his posts.

I've only played one game with the guy...but I think I agree with this. My make-or-break for LaLight comes from: he's played scum with me. Is he going to townread me hard, albeit drunk, and then switch later in the day because he thinks there's a wagon that could be built on me? Gonna say that's something more likely from town than scum. For now.

Weak Visitor: faust
Surprise....
Btw: Try to pick as many different people for the WV as possible

[silverspawn]

that's right visitor starts with a v!

[faust]

I would agree with the case on RR if it was anyone else who did this stuff

Weak Doctor: EFHW

everyone should do this now.

Uh, what? Do you want us to WW her or do you want to force her to WW someone?

I'm saying that if I use Weak Visitor, it will be on EFHW.

[Skumpy]

Well, you know, let's build a case on RR, because as usual you will ignore my suspcions until I post some rambling post with a lot of quotes, after which everyone suddenly decides it's a good idea to sheep me. Sometimes I wish you could just assume that I made such a post whenever I vote for someone...

I don't really like CJ or e at the moment. Let me find an alternative.

"I think it will look rather scummy for me to join the main wagons at this stage."

Lalight, Haddock and gkreig seem to be my three favorite choices, in that order.

"Let's list a bunch of people that have been under suspicion already and see where that goes."

I don't really like CJ or e at the moment. Let me find an alternative.

iguana is an alternative.

Not really for me, I have a trusting nature towards that reptile.

"Here's an argument for my stance that does not require me to express any opinion about this game."

At L-1 should you claim the cards you have?

"Oh, someone voted me. Let#s distract everyone with a completely pointless theory discussion."

I haven't said anything about faust yet this game. Maybe now's a good time to start. I wanted to keep my cards close the vest, but since I need to check my ego at the spacedoor and since there's a good chance I'm getting lynched....

Initial feeling about faust was town. But I have an impulse that I will always misread faust, town as scum and vice versa. So now I want to say he's scum and I really wanted to lynch him, or else try to track a potential busser/bussee (like CJ).

But despite that I disagree with the notion that faust is a sheepworthy player...

...yep, that's the scum RR I remember. He's so darn lurky and cautious and softspoken (see 105), and there's just a natural confidence and swagger to him as town that's not present here (see 108, which was not a game I was in, but one I would sometimes flip through).

(But I'm still coming for you faust; don't think you've hoodwinked me completely)

On the other hand, Awaclus never votes correctly.

That's a lie. Vote: Skumpy

I'm quoting this because it's just as funny as it was 12 hours ago, and we all need to laugh sometimes in life.

Vote: RR

[faust]

Weak Visitor: faust
Surprise....
Btw: Try to pick as many different people for the WV as possible

... he says while picking the same target as EFHW

[Skumpy]

Weak Visitor: faust
Surprise....
Btw: Try to pick as many different people for the WV as possible

... he says while picking the same target as EFHW

Probably should've PPE'd that.

[Skumpy]

Weak Visitor: faust
Surprise....
Btw: Try to pick as many different people for the WV as possible

... he says while picking the same target as EFHW

Probably should've PPE'd that.

You know what fine:
WV: e

[Skumpy]

Gonna revisit setup one last time:

Okay, my previous post on good night actions was too stream of consciousness, and I had a rule wrong.  So, let's try again:
Players 1, 2, and 3 should do the following in order (if you can):
1: Red-Lift-B
2: Blue-Lift-B
3: Lift-B-A

Still agreeing with this. Theorel has said he will wiggle the mouse tonight, so if Theorel is 1-3, then people 2-4 behind him should try and do the play one step ahead. Nobody else wiggle the mouse. Rest of quoted post has suggested actions, good idea for everybody else (though remember that you only get 1 successful action/phase)

Issues:
1) A risk people may not have all the cards, but it's a risk that's sufficiently low IMO.
2) Does tell scum some people who won't have powers that need blocking/silencing/flipping.

Perks:
1) Gets 3 people safely below decks, give some info about what everyone else should be trying to do to follow suit.
2) Prevents multidoing of the Mouse/Pool filling (though a 2nd replenish of the central pool would be nice at some opint)
3) Gets the pools filled and the mouse wiggled (duh), and limits doubling up of A/B actions.
4) Discourages scum from moving up the order because they have a set set of instructions that we will know if they don't obey.
5) And holds people accountable. People unable to do one specific assignment based on their cards is unlikely. So they have to do it. Scum could try to give it to another scum later in the order, but there's a risk of them getting caught.

If I'm lynched, my dying wish will be for you all to follow the plan.

Deadline: I don't know how involved I can be in terms of posting, but I'll be around to vote, though I don't really wanna move.

[Awaclus]

What's scummy about Skumpy's posts? Need to look at e and CJ.

What isn't scummy about Skumpy's posts?

[faust]

I won't feel bound to any fixed set of moves no matter my position in player order.

[Skumpy]

I won't feel bound to any fixed set of moves no matter my position in player order.

Then I sincerely hope you're not in the top 3 and your family messages from home are intercepted. Do you wanna elaborate or no?

What's scummy about Skumpy's posts? Need to look at e and CJ.

What isn't scummy about Skumpy's posts?

That I've made, or at least joined, a good case against RR, and it's a better place for your vote, unless there happens to be something less scummy about RR and his metas than me for...something? Doesn't matter if you find me scummy, vote for the scummiest. Or that I've both tried to build cases against people, possibly self-admittedly farfetched at times, and tried to contribute to set-up discussion and planning, possibly self-admittedly despite confusion over mechanics and over optimal strats. But if I'm Skum, I've taken a huge risk by throwing out a whole bunch of jargon that could be scumread rather than say nothing. Another good point in my favor: you're voting for me!

Let's play a mini-Spacegame: Who Said Thaaaaaat Mafia "Quote"?!

For today's spacEpisode, we have:

is Awaclus always this horrible? Every game I've seen him in his reads have been atrocious...and [he] assumes at all times that he is correct, when I've yet to see even a single case of that being true.

[faust]

I won't feel bound to any fixed set of moves no matter my position in player order.

Then I sincerely hope you're not in the top 3 and your family messages from home are intercepted. Do you wanna elaborate or no?

All my concerns have already been expressed, so no, not really.

[faust]

But I know you'll want me to elaborate, so here:

I think the cons outweigh the pros. Your writeup earlier left out one con that is we're telling mafia which players will be on the lower deck.

[faust]

Once more, Request prod on luckat

Request replacement for luckat

[Awaclus]

That I've made, or at least joined, a good case against RR

How did RR respond to the case?

[Skumpy]

OK, time for another mini-Spacegame: Scout out the RoadRunner Scum!

Here are 5 quotes from this game from RR, randomly chosen via RNG:

I've been lurking hardcore, later tonight I'll come on and actually contribute a little.

Think iguana is town here.

If you’re scum i’m ready to unvote.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I don't really like CJ or e at the moment. Let me find an alternative.

At L-1 should you claim the cards you have?

At L-1 should you claim the cards you have?

I can't see why that's useful?

Can you see why it's un-useful?

Now, we have 10 more quotes, also randomly picked. 5 come from M105 (Scum) and come from M108 (Town) They have been scrambled and edited so as to try and conceal clues (when possible). Can you tell which come from Scum!RR and which come from town!RR

1.

[], how many times have you been mislynched in your mafia career ?

Absolutely love this argument.

Also I think [] should claim his target sooner rather than not sooner.

2.

We should follow the claim order and not have all this nonsense going on.

3.

Agree with []’s analysis

Which part ? Because it's not entirely clear to me what conclusion [] has arrived to.

The part about how [] isn't a good lynch today but becomes a better lynch the longer he's alive.

4.

What a joke.

Think i am kinda done with this game.

?

5.

put in effort

I haven't been doing too much of that and i'm almost done rereading him  not too much to go off of.

6.

Not sure where my vote is, but I want on on Datswan. Vote: Datswan

7.

I haven't claimed anything yet. That was DatSwan you're thinking of.

Oh, right. You've just been scum read for some reason or another by most people at some point in time.

8.

I'm gonna go reassess [...] and [...] to try and get a better grasp on them.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do that, but you are aware that they are both dead, right ?

Why are they dead? Who helped kill them the most? Who wanted them dead? Those are the things that would be cool to know.

9.

vote: RR

The reasoning behind this vote is pretty convincing 

10.

RoadRunner (35 posts): Seems to be flaily town for D1.

I'm not flailing!

Answers: Town RR is the Triangle Numbers . And 2. Now take away what you will.
(I worked really hard on this for no reason at all. OK, I'm done making non-voting posts for D1. Hopefully catch you all tomorrow).

[SpaceAnemone]

Luckat was prodded, and is currently considered missing in action. These missions can be perilous.

Further status reports on your missing colleague will be forthcoming as the ship's automated systems gather more information...

[CheesyJelly]

I mean, it's a mathematic impossibility of me getting scum thrice in a row.

Vote: Skumpy

Statistics abuse is the main tool of the Science Denier.

[silverspawn]

vote: CJ

Ok let's lynch them. Using a joke for a serious vote is scumscum.

[faust]

vote: CJ

Ok let's lynch them. Using a joke for a serious vote is scumscum.

It isn't really.

[silverspawn]

It kind of is this close to the deadline.

[faust]

It kind of is this close to the deadline.

Why?

[faust]

That I've made, or at least joined, a good case against RR

How did RR respond to the case?

Not at all.

[faust]

Here, I made an easy-to-use template. Just copy-paste into your post!

[b]Vote: Roadrunner[/b]

[Awaclus]

That I've made, or at least joined, a good case against RR

How did RR respond to the case?

Not at all.

Then it was useless.

[Awaclus]

Here, I made an easy-to-use template. Just copy-paste into your post!

[b]Vote: Roadrunner[/b]

Yeah, you just have to replace Roadrunner with Skumpy and you're good to go.

[silverspawn]

It kind of is this close to the deadline.

Why?

Because it's not actual information about  whether someone is scum, so assuming town plays even somewhat well, they shouldn't do it.

[silverspawn]

I'm not in favor of lynching RR now. I've been right about him a couple of times before so I want to make the decision later, also he hasn't set off any alarm bells yet.

[faust]

It kind of is this close to the deadline.

Why?

Because it's not actual information about  whether someone is scum, so assuming town scum plays even somewhat well, they shouldn't do it.

It still holds this way.

[faust]

I'm not in favor of lynching RR now. I've been right about him a couple of times before so I want to make the decision later, also he hasn't set off any alarm bells yet.

You know, postponing a lynch without actually giving a read is much more scummy than that thing you pointed out about Jelly.

[LaLight]

Faust is kinda really extreme about every scumread this game don’t trmember him being this way before

[LaLight]

I am set on skumpy right now

[faust]

That whole Skumpy wagon is completely ridiculous. Scum is all over it.

Also, people should share their weak visitors.

[theorel]

But I know you'll want me to elaborate, so here:

I think the cons outweigh the pros. Your writeup earlier left out one con that is we're telling mafia which players will be on the lower deck.

It doesn't actually tell them very much in this regard...because if a player has been top-deck at all during the space phase they're eligible for kills.  And there's no way to know if those players go top-deck tomorrow night.  And scum can safely assume that the first 3 players made lower-deck since they have best opportunity to get there.

The main con that I see is that scum would know that these players are not cops or commuters tonight.  I'm not sure if that works out to make them more or less likely nk's though.

Um...WV: Awaclus.

[faust]

RR, iguana, Awaclus are all better lynches than the wagons we have right now. I mean, hell, luckat is a better lynch even.

[theorel]

Faust is kinda really extreme about every scumread this game don’t trmember him being this way before

He seems the same as he was in M111, where he was town and lynched town for no good reason.

That said, I think the RR vote is better than the iguana one...not sure how I feel about it relative the CJ lynch.
Skumpy wagon is terrible...I'll need to look back to see who's voting there.

[iguanaiguana]

Weak Visitor: Roadrunner

Vote: CJ

silver's right, that's a scummy vote.

Faust seems to have tunnel vision this game.

[Awaclus]

WV: silverspawn

[2.71828.....]

I would weak visit faust probably. But really, night actions are very dependant on the flip. I suppose weak visiting should be locked in though since, you know, you could die.

[Haddock]

Voting RR for RR things is probably a towntell for a new (?) player like Skumpy.
request vote count

[CheesyJelly]

It kind of is this close to the deadline.

Why?

Because it's not actual information about  whether someone is scum, so assuming town plays even somewhat well, they shouldn't do it.

I'm voting Skumpy because "I couldn't possibly be scum AGAIN" is nonsense and they know it.  That's not how probability works.  I also think all of Skumpy's posts since then have been scummy, including  the whole "Well I don't really want to play anyway..." thing.


[sarcasm] I apologise for daring to humour into my original short explanation. [/sarcasm]


I'll probably WV iguana.

[EFHW]

Voting RR for RR things is probably a towntell for a new (?) player like Skumpy.
request vote count

But you are voting for him.

[faust]

Weak Visitor: Roadrunner

Vote: CJ

silver's right, that's a scummy vote.

Faust seems to have tunnel vision this game.

If I had tunnel vision, I'd still be voting for you, wouldn't I?

[Haddock]

Voting RR for RR things is probably a towntell for a new (?) player like Skumpy.
request vote count

But you are voting for him.

Since before he did his "probable towntell".

I've already said I'll move my vote as necessary.

[faust]

Voting RR for RR things is probably a towntell for a new (?) player like Skumpy.
request vote count

But you are voting for him.

Since before he did his "probable towntell".

I've already said I'll move my vote as necessary.

It is necessary for you to move your vote to RR.

[faust]

Also, nice try at invalidating Skumpy's read.

[Haddock]

*sigh*

I'm not scumreading anyone here, but RR least of all.  He's just being RR.

I'll vote him to get a lynch through, if it comes to that.
Meanwhile not moving vote until I see a vote count.

[theorel]

Skumpy wagon is terrible...I'll need to look back to see who's voting there.

Let's see it's Haddock (from forever ago), Awaclus, Lalight, RR, and CJ.
That wagon picked up super-fast especially given Awaclus' non-reason for voting him.
LL comes off a bit scummy in the follow-up, but RR looks especially scummy in his vote.  CJ then follows again, but more because skumpy offers terrible reason for not being scum?  Nonetheless, while the statistical reasoning is unsound, it's not alignment indicative (IMO).

So, RR's vote is scummiest one there, CJ's vote is not great.  But, why are LL and RR even voting for him?  Blah, I could go to RR.  But CJ's not really coming off town either.  I dunno, conflicted.

[Haddock]

Wait, Skumpy has a proper wagon?  Last time I saw a vote count I was the only one on him.

Jeez.

unvote

[silverspawn]

I'm not in favor of lynching RR now. I've been right about him a couple of times before so I want to make the decision later, also he hasn't set off any alarm bells yet.

You know, postponing a lynch without actually giving a read is much more scummy than that thing you pointed out about Jelly.

why? It makes sense for me to do it right now. Did I do it as scum in the past?

[silverspawn]

wv: faust

[silverspawn]

I'm voting Skumpy because "I couldn't possibly be scum AGAIN" is nonsense and they know it.

Unfortunately, some people do think probability works that way.

[SpaceAnemone]

Earth to Sitting Duck? Earth to Sitting Duck! Are you there? Come in please, Sitting Duck!

Our ship-side sensors have lost track of Cadet Luckat entirely. Virtually no presence has been detected since that routine airlock maintenance the other day.

In a stroke of luck, we've just discovered that someone forgot to pull all the maintentance and ground-side engineering team off the ship before launching. There's one in a mostly-catatonic state hiding out in one of the cargo lockers... if you just put a nice cup of tea into him, I'm sure he'll be good as new! He may not have attended any of the mission briefing lectures, but come to think of it, most of you didn't turn up in person either, and look how far you've gone! We're going to delay your first intensive self-operating space mission by 24 earth-hours, while you attempt to bring him out of severe shock and let him get up to speed.

Mcmcsalot replaces Luckat with immediate effect.

D1 is extended by one day, and will now end at 17.30 forum time on Tuesday 30th January.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 1.6

CheesyJelly (6): theorel, 2.71828....., EFHW, gkrieg13, silverspawn, iguanaiguana
Roadrunner7671 (2): faust, Skumpy
Skumpy (4): Awaclus, LaLight, Roadrunner7671, CheesyJelly
Not Voting (2): mcmcsalot, Haddock

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.30 forum time on Tuesday 30th January.

[faust]

wv: faust

That's 4 people having picked me. I thought the idea was to spread out? And why pick me anyway, I'm going to die soon.

[faust]

Woo mcmc! Woo extra day. This should be interesting^TM.

[Skumpy]

Voting RR for RR things is probably a towntell for a new (?) player like Skumpy.
request vote count

Except that I've been right once before. Not saying I am this time, but I don't require the pity.

I'm voting Skumpy because "I couldn't possibly be scum AGAIN" is nonsense and they know it.  That's not how probability works.

[sarcasm] I apologise for daring to humour into my original short explanation. [/sarcasm]

[Skumpy]

I'm not in favor of lynching RR now. I've been right about him a couple of times before so I want to make the decision later, also he hasn't set off any alarm bells yet.

You know, postponing a lynch without actually giving a read is much more scummy than that thing you pointed out about Jelly.

It's null. It's absolutely something i'd do as town with the right person.

[mcmcsalot]

Finally! Been waiting for space to sub me in all morning, also been locked out of doing anything productive at work so guess who spent the last 4 hours reading the thread....

First off, strong frustration/moderate suspicion with the players that made "theory talk is too tough for me posts".

Oh my god too much setup chat.

I simply can't catch up with this today.  I'll try tonight.

What i think that at least one of the hard setup talkers is scum

I had no idea Awaclus was playing until just now.

It was a bit pointless to participate in setup talk when I didn't have even the faintest recollection of what the setup was.

I know it's an unusual proposition, but you could just read the setup and then participate!

I did, but at that point you had already said we should stop with the setup talk.

There's no way I'm contributing in setup talk, which I think is pretty clear. I'll go along with a plan or do my own thing that seems good, and maybe find some time to give the mouse a little wiggle.

The most frustrating thing while reading was watching skumpy and theorel go back and forth posting great setup discussion that was parceled out in a way that really only required non-theory heavy players to acknowledged and throw support behind or lodge complaints. This is strong on frustration but moderate on suspicion because while I do think this is a good scum tactic to stall setup discussion while getting posts down that aren't scumhunting either I have learned recently to be dissapointed by town.

That being said:

Players 1, 2, and 3 should do the following in order (if you can):
1: Red-Lift-B
2: Blue-Lift-B
3: Lift-B-A

100% in favor of ordering the first three players with tasks however there are some energy issues with this scenario. Currently White has 3, Red has 2, Blue has 2. Red and Blue can only hold a maximum of 3 white holds a max of 5. Round one makes sense, I assume one whit energy gets spent on tracker by players 4-14. The issue comes in round two, Player 3 is filling white energy pool up to 5, a player 4-14 probably wants to grab another tracker shot and it possible mafia grabs a roleblocker here which would drop the white energy pool to 3. Then in round 3 Player 1 is taking all three energy out of white into red, Player 2 now wastes his card more importantly even if no energy was spent in white during phase two Player two would now be taking the 2 leftover energy from white into red, this means there is no energy left in white for Player 3 to print a status report. Player 2 and Player 3 have to be switched.

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-B

And we still need to hope mafia doesn't spend two actions grabbing a tracker and roleblocker in phase 2 which drops the energy pool to 3 and then in round 3 player one takes all 3 energy from white to red and player 2 still cant print the status report. I actually think tracker and status print out are good enough that we shouldn't be trying to pull energy from white to blue. so I would say

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-C?

Stopping this post here to contain it to setup discussion and my next post will be an scumhunting analysis of the players I mentioned up top.

[mcmcsalot]

So haddock, roadrunner, lalight, and awaclus all made some types of posts complaining about not being able to do setup discussion while also not at least acknowledging the setup discussion skumpy theorel put foreward. I think awaclus did it in a standard awaclus way and don't find it super indicative of his alignment, haddock said it early enough that it truly seemed to be more of a woah this is complicated post. Roadrunner and lalight came off as the most scummy on this part. Roadrunner did go as far as to say he was going to try and read the setup but then didn't which again is frustrating because if he wasn't going to put in the time to do that he should have enagaged with those who were, still here I am more likely to chalk it up to lazy town then mafia. Then we get to the dirty science denying Lalaight, he struck me as scummy through out my read. It was scummy of him to blanket call the setup talkers scummy, I think the "one of the theory talkers has to be scum" is a super easy argument for scum to hide behind and gives them a reason to try to wagon active players without making really convincing cases. So lalight uses that argument to vote faust who has been hard pushing for iguana and then lalight quickly votes iguana no real reason, the person faust was pushing. He then explains with this:

Uh oh ok. I voted faust for being active but then i got the reason to vote for ii so i a staying there

But there is no reason that I can see listed. He then asks if Iguana is even a top wagon and requests a vote count. Its all a very scummy exchange from lalight and looked to me like drunk scum joining what he saw to be a wagon, not realizing it was started by the person he was previously voting for and then passing it all off as well my first vote was for "just being active".

He also says at one point he wont vote skumpy or silver and has since latched on to skumpy for a few posts skumpy made that were underexplained(from skumpy) which I didn't find scummy at all but were the type of posts scum jumps on as they "look" scummy.

[mcmcsalot]

Post Count

77 - faust (17)
65 - silverspawn (13)
37 - LaLight (11)
30 - Skumpy (0)
27 - EFHW (5)
20 - Awaclus (7)
19 - theorel (1)
17 - Roadrunner (6)
15 - CheesyJelly (2)
15 - Iguana (3)
13 - e (1)
9 - Haddock (5)
7 - gkrieg (4)
2 - mcmcsalot (0)

[mcmcsalot]

So I also think cheesy jelly is quite scummy as does most of town. I am fine with him being the lynch but I would like to see what people think of my lalight case.

Vote Count 1.3

Haddock (1): Roadrunner7671
iguanaiguana (4): faust, gkrieg13, LaLight, CheesyJelly
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
silverspawn (1): Awaclus
Awaclus (1): 2.71828.....
Skumpy (1): Haddock
CheesyJelly (3): silverspawn, Skumpy, theorel
Not Voting (2): Luckat, EFHW

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.35 forum time on Monday 29th January.

This really accurately shows scum!lalight and scum!cheesyjelly using town!faust mistaken d1 case as cover to push a lynch through on town!iguana. Iv'e rode many a misplaced town!faust wagon through to lynch as scum myself.

[mcmcsalot]

Also Weak Visit: EFHW

[mcmcsalot]

Vote Count 1.5

LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): CheesyJelly
Skumpy (4): Haddock, Awaclus, LaLight, Roadrunner7671
CheesyJelly (4): theorel, 2.71828....., EFHW, gkrieg13
2.71828..... (2): silverspawn, Skumpy
Roadrunner7671 (1): faust
Not Voting (1): Luckat

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.35 forum time on Monday 29th January.

Ridiculous quick wagon on skumpy once faust left the iguana train as scum desperately tries to avoid the CJ lynch going through. The E wagon formed much more naturally, there could be something there to look at in future days, he is not striking me as towny as normal could be due to his low posts though.

[mcmcsalot]

Regarding LaLight not making sense:

Dama hard

Possible partner tell

[mcmcsalot]

wasn;t deadline supposed to be in 2 hours before I got swapped in...where are yall

[silverspawn]

at home!

[silverspawn]

What you said about LaLight is all really reasonable but I reread him and I don't see it. Why? Uh, tone...

[silverspawn]

I endorse this

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-C?

Whoever does too, stick to it. That's the best we can get at this point, unfortunately.

[silverspawn]

Post Count

77 - faust (17)
65 - silverspawn (13)
37 - LaLight (11)
30 - Skumpy (0)
27 - EFHW (5)
20 - Awaclus (7)
19 - theorel (1)
17 - Roadrunner (6)
15 - CheesyJelly (2)
15 - Iguana (3)
13 - e (1)
9 - Haddock (5)
7 - gkrieg (4)
2 - mcmcsalot (0)

What does the number in parenthesis mean?

[CheesyJelly]

Hey mcmcsalot.  Good to have you aboard!  Your read of me and my motivations are wrong, but I'm not playing well so I can't blame you.

[mcmcsalot]

What you said about LaLight is all really reasonable but I reread him and I don't see it. Why? Uh, tone...

I think someone else said is a cheery/positive tone is what lalight always has going for him which makes him so hard to lynch. I understand he had been drinking and so his posts may have been slightly due to that but as possibly the number one proponent of DAMA its very hard to confuse/forget town!me's reads when drunk compared to scum!me.

[LaLight]

yes, that's actully the problem. I really wanted to participate in the game and tried to do it

[LaLight]

now I scumread Skumpy for those series of posts where he tells he doesn't care about being lynched. That's mostly scumtell even though it usually looks like town one

[mcmcsalot]

Hey mcmcsalot.  Good to have you aboard!  Your read of me and my motivations are wrong, but I'm not playing well so I can't blame you.

Well we got time, what do you think of my lalight case. Also who is your top scum read other than skumpy and why?

[LaLight]

because when you're town you feel more responsible for your team. I mean I too have not a lot of time and effort to give to the game, but my lynch would be terrible for town. I signed up, I play as best as i can

[LaLight]

deadline is in 2 hours strict, correct? I am willing to return to iguana, Haddock or faust at this point

[silverspawn]

No the deadline is tomorrow.

[mcmcsalot]

What does the number in parenthesis mean?

It was the pre game start posts so they can be subtracted from future post counts, I subtracted them out already in my count.

[LaLight]

No the deadline is tomorrow.

I don’t think you are correct

[LaLight]

Vote Count 1.4

iguanaiguana (3): gkrieg13, LaLight, CheesyJelly
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
Skumpy (3): Haddock, Awaclus, Roadrunner7671
CheesyJelly (3): theorel, 2.71828....., EFHW
2.71828..... (2): silverspawn, Skumpy
Roadrunner7671 (1): faust
Not Voting (1): Luckat

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.35 forum time on Monday 29th January.

[LaLight]

vote count?

[silverspawn]

D1 is extended by one day, and will now end at 17.30 forum time on Tuesday 30th January.[/color]

[mcmcsalot]

vote count?

vote count

Vote Count 1.6

CheesyJelly (6): theorel, 2.71828....., EFHW, gkrieg13, silverspawn, iguanaiguana
Roadrunner7671 (2): faust, Skumpy
Skumpy (4): Awaclus, LaLight, Roadrunner7671, CheesyJelly
Not Voting (2): mcmcsalot, Haddock

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.30 forum time on Tuesday 30th January.

[mcmcsalot]

now I scumread Skumpy for those series of posts where he tells he doesn't care about being lynched. That's mostly scumtell even though it usually looks like town one

Meh I think this is a null tell, more over it's a personality tell and what I have gotten from Skumpy is confident, doesn't take the game too seriously but is focused and prone to adding some wit into his posts. Kinda like a TWM light.


But if we are really going for generic scum tells...

because when you're town you feel more responsible for your team. I mean I too have not a lot of time and effort to give to the game, but my lynch would be terrible for town. I signed up, I play as best as i can

ATE

[LaLight]

now I scumread Skumpy for those series of posts where he tells he doesn't care about being lynched. That's mostly scumtell even though it usually looks like town one

Meh I think this is a null tell, more over it's a personality tell and what I have gotten from Skumpy is confident, doesn't take the game too seriously but is focused and prone to adding some wit into his posts. Kinda like a TWM light.


But if we are really going for generic scum tells...

because when you're town you feel more responsible for your team. I mean I too have not a lot of time and effort to give to the game, but my lynch would be terrible for town. I signed up, I play as best as i can

ATE

I meant more generally, I didn’t ate here. This is what i do every game, where i signed up

[LaLight]

Where’s the case on cj?

[Skumpy]

because when you're town you feel more responsible for your team. I mean I too have not a lot of time and effort to give to the game, but my lynch would be terrible for town. I signed up, I play as best as i can

If you'd like, I can post the PM I sent to Space when I /inned. I play as best as I can, but if I'm going down, I don't really feel like fighting against it this game (at least D1). My lynch might be terrible for town, but it'd be great for me.

now I scumread Skumpy for those series of posts where he tells he doesn't care about being lynched. That's mostly scumtell even though it usually looks like town one

Meh I think this is a null tell, more over it's a personality tell and what I have gotten from Skumpy is confident, doesn't take the game too seriously but is focused and prone to adding some wit into his posts. Kinda like a TWM light.

Confidence only lasts until a mislynch. Then I'm going to fall apart and admit I have no idea what I'm doing. Just a warning.

The longer nobody touches the RR miniwagon, the better I feel about it. Town RR plays with spunk and flair. But here, he's just so noncommittal about everything.

[CheesyJelly]

Hey mcmcsalot.  Good to have you aboard!  Your read of me and my motivations are wrong, but I'm not playing well so I can't blame you.

Well we got time, what do you think of my lalight case. Also who is your top scum read other than skumpy and why?

I understand it, and agree with it broadly, but this LaLight feels like town!LaLight I've played with before.  I think.  Lots of gut feelings going on D1.


Top scum reads at the moment... not sure.  Iguana, maybe. Possibly e?  Wouldn't surprise me to learn that faust is scum, but I nearly always think that.

[iguanaiguana]

I endorse this

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-C?

Whoever does too, stick to it. That's the best we can get at this point, unfortunately.

Wait what if people can't do this?

[iguanaiguana]

@McMc your case on LL was exactly my case on LL but with the weight of an extra 1000 words behind it, nice. Maybe now more people will believe it.

Congrats you joining just got me hyped on this game for the first time.

I believe we can lynch LL. Yes we can.

Vote: LL

[silverspawn]

I endorse this

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-C?

Whoever does too, stick to it. That's the best we can get at this point, unfortunately.

Wait what if people can't do this?

Then they don't.

[iguanaiguana]

I endorse this

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-C?

Whoever does too, stick to it. That's the best we can get at this point, unfortunately.

Wait what if people can't do this?

Then they don't.

Ok, seems easy for scum who don't want to do it to just say "I didn't have those cards" then.

I guess it's still net helpful even granted that scum have an easy out from following it?

[EFHW]

Turbo boost by mcmc! Do you like Earl Gray?

[EFHW]

I'll change to WV:mcmc since so many people are planning on visiting faust.

[theorel]

I endorse this

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-C?

Whoever does too, stick to it. That's the best we can get at this point, unfortunately.

Wait what if people can't do this?

Then they don't.

Ok, seems easy for scum who don't want to do it to just say "I didn't have those cards" then.

I guess it's still net helpful even granted that scum have an easy out from following it?

I'm going to add to silver's comment and say even if you don't have those cards try to use the listed lift as best you can.
Because one of the major things this helps with is knowing when those players are using the lift...this allows a few extra players to make it to lower levels (i.e. player 4 can easily do so knowing when those lifts are in use).  So, if you don't have a "C" for instance, but can still go Blue-Lift...go ahead and do that.  You can do "B" and hope there's energy from someone else filling central late in phase 2.

[theorel]

Where’s the case on cj?

Starts around here...

#375 is a post I really like.  Thank you, Theorel.

II is a better vote than Haddock, from what I can see, but I've previously shown myself to be blind to scum!Haddock.

Vote: iguanaiguana

silver thought this post was scummy.
Skumpy came in like 3 posts later with a full case on Cheesy:

I initially disagreed, but on thinking more about it it seemed a bit scummy.  My read came from the fact that I posted a comment about ii vs. Haddock, mostly to say that the ii wagon made no sense to me, and so we should try to build other wagons, such as Haddock.  Cheesy took that and turned it into a Haddock v. ii thing (from my perspective...maybe he had other thoughts reasoning, I dunno, just going off what I read.

Later he has a scummy (IMO) vote on skumpy (not for humor, just for timing and reasoning).

Combined it still makes me lean scum on CJ, more-so than anyone else this game. 
-I get the Lalight case but it seems meta-heavy, and I'm unfamiliar.
-I get the Roadrunner case, he's probably just second to CJ IMO.

[iguanaiguana]

I endorse this

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-C?

Whoever does too, stick to it. That's the best we can get at this point, unfortunately.

Wait what if people can't do this?

Then they don't.

Ok, seems easy for scum who don't want to do it to just say "I didn't have those cards" then.

I guess it's still net helpful even granted that scum have an easy out from following it?

I'm going to add to silver's comment and say even if you don't have those cards try to use the listed lift as best you can.
Because one of the major things this helps with is knowing when those players are using the lift...this allows a few extra players to make it to lower levels (i.e. player 4 can easily do so knowing when those lifts are in use).  So, if you don't have a "C" for instance, but can still go Blue-Lift...go ahead and do that.  You can do "B" and hope there's energy from someone else filling central late in phase 2.

Ok and there is no way to try to make sure say the 4th thrust 6th players also get down to the lower level? Or catch scum if they fail?

[Skumpy]

I endorse this

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-C?

Whoever does too, stick to it. That's the best we can get at this point, unfortunately.

Wait what if people can't do this?

Then they don't.

Ok, seems easy for scum who don't want to do it to just say "I didn't have those cards" then.

I guess it's still net helpful even granted that scum have an easy out from following it?

I'm going to add to silver's comment and say even if you don't have those cards try to use the listed lift as best you can.
Because one of the major things this helps with is knowing when those players are using the lift...this allows a few extra players to make it to lower levels (i.e. player 4 can easily do so knowing when those lifts are in use).  So, if you don't have a "C" for instance, but can still go Blue-Lift...go ahead and do that.  You can do "B" and hope there's energy from someone else filling central late in phase 2.

Ok and there is no way to try to make sure say the 4th thrust 6th players also get down to the lower level? Or catch scum if they fail?

So I decided to simulate the odds of somebody being able to do everything and the results were, well, not as encouraging as I'd hoped. For the above 3 sets of instructions, the odds of a starting hand being able to successfully accomplish all 3 is only around 55%. Two important things I did not take into account however: 1st, there's some flexibility. If you can't use a C or A action, then it's not the end of the world; the important part is being able to use the correct lift, and ideally fill the red/central pool. Plus I think B is a viable alternative to C anyways, so that all would boost the percentage up certainly into at least the 60's. And secondly: those were the odds of somebody unable to do all 3. The odds of somebody being unable to do 1 specific set would then be about a 1/3 of that.

So in the end: I'd estimate there's a solid 75% all 3 people could do their task. Which is high enough that I'd be suspicious of anybody who claims they couldn't, at least not without a pre-warning like Theorel.

As for the next 3 players, it gives some info for what to do and what not to do. That's 3 lifts that would ideally be in use, so don't use a lift when it might be getting jammed. If a top 3 player couldn't use the appropriate at the assigned time, then I'd say wait a round or 2 before trying to lift to avoid jamming up people behind you. Think about how not to get jammed and think about how not to jam others, it ain't rocket science.

 Except it is rocket science...

[LaLight]

WV: Awaclus

[faust]

wasn;t deadline supposed to be in 2 hours before I got swapped in...where are yall

I read that we had another day and went to bed...

[faust]

mcmc, I'm glad you're here, but your reads are a ride on confirmation bias:

Then we get to the dirty science denying Lalaight, he struck me as scummy through out my read.

So I also think cheesy jelly is quite scummy as does most of town.

So here are two initial reads.

This really accurately shows scum!lalight and scum!cheesyjelly using town!faust mistaken d1 case as cover to push a lynch through on town!iguana. Iv'e rode many a misplaced town!faust wagon through to lynch as scum myself.

And then these reads are validated with seemingly unjustified townreads on me and iguana.

Ridiculous quick wagon on skumpy once faust left the iguana train as scum desperately tries to avoid the CJ lynch going through. The E wagon formed much more naturally, there could be something there to look at in future days, he is not striking me as towny as normal could be due to his low posts though.

As well as Skumpy. I think you're assuming that we are all town just to fit your narrative... and that's never a good thing.

[silverspawn]

I guess it's still net helpful even granted that scum have an easy out from following it?

It's not an easy out. The chance not to have cards is so low that not 'having' them is suspicious.

Ok and there is no way to try to make sure say the 4th thrust 6th players also get down to the lower level? Or catch scum if they fail?

I don't think more coordination is good because then scum knows exactly who is lower deck and who isn't.

[silverspawn]

Don't want to lynch LaLight or RR. I guess I'll be here for the deadline so we can see what we have the votes for.

[faust]

I guess it's still net helpful even granted that scum have an easy out from following it?

It's not an easy out. The chance not to have cards is so low that not 'having' them is suspicious.

Sounds more like an easy way to drive a mislynch than anything...

[Skumpy]

I guess it's still net helpful even granted that scum have an easy out from following it?

It's not an easy out. The chance not to have cards is so low that not 'having' them is suspicious.

Sounds more like an easy way to drive a mislynch than anything...

I still say people should've at least acknowledged a can or can't. Too late now, and if I'm alive for it, I probably won't be in a very forgiving mood. And faust: I know you take a lot of pride in your scumhunting ability, but for Pete's sake man, set aside your ego and work with the team. The case was already made why it doesn't matter that much if scum knows if the first 3 people got to the lower decks, and that's assuming people don't reveal actions D2. At best, what it prevents is possibly a N2 kill that might go through anyways. Alternatively, look at it as 3 people who reached the lower deck and are now in a decent position to help block the scum kill. I know this is falling on deaf ears, but I'll give it a shot anyways. Just don't blame me when everyone's getting stuck on lifts and can't even use powers because there's no energy left.

As for the wagons, CJ's not the towniest guy around, and I do admittedly have half the information, but it's starting to reek of a dual town wagon. There's no concern, no frantic movement, everybody seems content to just let the wagons ride out. Which naturally includes 4 scum. I'll look dumb when CJ ends up being scum...eh. I'll vote there if needed, but I agree with basically everybody else that there are better options. Such as RR.

In other news, anybody seen G13 around?

On the other hand, Awaclus never votes correctly.

That's a lie. Vote: Skumpy

Just wanted to requote it.
I'd put in my sig, but then faust will get mad at me.

[Skumpy]

BTW @faust: Why haven't you suspected me, like, at all this game? What have I done/not done that makes me very clearly town in your eyes?

[EFHW]

I do not have the right cards to be able to do the recommended actions.

[Haddock]

I don't like the CJ wagon or the RR wagon, but will vote either if necessary to get a lynch through.
ii was a reasonable case, what happened there?

I will weak visit CJ if he survives the day, and weak visit RR otherwise.

[faust]

BTW @faust: Why haven't you suspected me, like, at all this game? What have I done/not done that makes me very clearly town in your eyes?

Why should I suspect you?

[faust]

ii was a reasonable case, what happened there?

RR case was better.

But I am definitely willing to go back to iguana. Also *conspiracy theory mode* the reason iguana got excited about mcmc entering the game is because he was luckat's scumpartner.

[Skumpy]

BTW @faust: Why haven't you suspected me, like, at all this game? What have I done/not done that makes me very clearly town in your eyes?

Why should I suspect you?

Because I'm not sure if you not voting is a sign that you're scum knowing not to vote for me, despite me playing maybe a bit out of character, or a sign that you've figured out how to read me.

I do not have the right cards to be able to do the recommended actions.

See, that helps!

[CheesyJelly]

ii was a reasonable case, what happened there?

RR case was better.

But I am definitely willing to go back to iguana. Also *conspiracy theory mode* the reason iguana got excited about mcmc entering the game is because he was luckat's scumpartner.

You might be half-joking there, but it makes a lot of sense.  I'd be pretty ticked off if my scumpartner was AWOL.

Vote: iguanaiguana

To be clear, that's not the entire basis of my vote.  I'm not doing great at communicating all of my thoughts and feelings this game, but I'm still scumreading ii from earlier.

Skumpy is my reserve WV if ii doesn't last the day.

[iguanaiguana]

I guess it's still net helpful even granted that scum have an easy out from following it?

It's not an easy out. The chance not to have cards is so low that not 'having' them is suspicious.

Sounds more like an easy way to drive a mislynch than anything...

Agree

[iguanaiguana]

The other stuff you said, not so agree. More later.

[iguanaiguana]

To be more clear, I'm going to work. I want to respond when I get off. If all are gonna lynch me, at east give me the chance to say my I told you so speech to Faust because I really enjoy that sort of thing.

[mcmcsalot]

mcmc, I'm glad you're here, but your reads are a ride on confirmation bias:

Then we get to the dirty science denying Lalaight, he struck me as scummy through out my read.

So I also think cheesy jelly is quite scummy as does most of town.

So here are two initial reads.

This really accurately shows scum!lalight and scum!cheesyjelly using town!faust mistaken d1 case as cover to push a lynch through on town!iguana. Iv'e rode many a misplaced town!faust wagon through to lynch as scum myself.

And then these reads are validated with seemingly unjustified townreads on me and iguana.

Ridiculous quick wagon on skumpy once faust left the iguana train as scum desperately tries to avoid the CJ lynch going through. The E wagon formed much more naturally, there could be something there to look at in future days, he is not striking me as towny as normal could be due to his low posts though.

As well as Skumpy. I think you're assuming that we are all town just to fit your narrative... and that's never a good thing.

I am not assuming you are all town to fit my narrative, it's not the easiest to flesh out all my reads nor is it super necessary when I join the game 24 hours before deadline. I have a strong town read on you faust, as I did in smash bros, I also townread skumpy and I think Iguana's wagon formed in a very opportunistic way, so I think its likely a town wagon started by a town member that scum jumped on. Specifically the way lalight and cj's votes have moved make my belive they are scum alongside the decent cases other people have made on them.

large snip
As for the wagons, CJ's not the towniest guy around, and I do admittedly have half the information, but it's starting to reek of a dual town wagon. There's no concern, no frantic movement, everybody seems content to just let the wagons ride out. Which naturally includes 4 scum. I'll look dumb when CJ ends up being scum...eh. I'll vote there if needed, but I agree with basically everybody else that there are better options. Such as RR.

I don't think this is true, gonna get some data to back it up but if I am correct as I think I am, cheesy has been the dominant wagon amidst attempts to jump back to iguana (whos wagon was first), over to roadrunner, and finally to you. So scum is not happy settling on cheesy, remember there is four scum so they can make up half of a wagon themselves, obviously they don't want to but there haven't been tons of I would vote cj but comments which I would expect from scum waiting to hop on a town wagon.

[faust]

Why can't we just lynch RR? Noone townreads him, a bunch of people scumread him, he has done not a single pro-town thing this game, noone will miss him.

[faust]

Also he's just disappeared hoping that people will forget about him. He is now eligible to prod, and you all know how much I love prodding people...

Request prod on RR

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 1.7

CheesyJelly (5): theorel, 2.71828....., EFHW, gkrieg13, silverspawn
Roadrunner7671 (2): faust, Skumpy
Skumpy (3): Awaclus, LaLight, Roadrunner7671
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
iguanaiguana (1): CheesyJelly
Not Voting (2): mcmcsalot, Haddock

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.30 forum time on Tuesday 30th January.

RR has now been prodded.

[theorel]

...

large snip
As for the wagons, CJ's not the towniest guy around, and I do admittedly have half the information, but it's starting to reek of a dual town wagon. There's no concern, no frantic movement, everybody seems content to just let the wagons ride out. Which naturally includes 4 scum. I'll look dumb when CJ ends up being scum...eh. I'll vote there if needed, but I agree with basically everybody else that there are better options. Such as RR.

I don't think this is true, gonna get some data to back it up but if I am correct as I think I am, cheesy has been the dominant wagon amidst attempts to jump back to iguana (whos wagon was first), over to roadrunner, and finally to you. So scum is not happy settling on cheesy, remember there is four scum so they can make up half of a wagon themselves, obviously they don't want to but there haven't been tons of I would vote cj but comments which I would expect from scum waiting to hop on a town wagon.

I'm looking forward to seeing that information.  I think it's worthwhile also seeing how the attempted RR-wagon has gone.  At this moment, it looks like the RR wagon has had a harder time building than the CJ wagon, with maybe even more people claiming he's scummy.  Anyways, if so it might be a strong argument for RR being scum as well.

[mcmcsalot]

Votes: Strikeouts are peoples old votes, parentheses are new votes, each new set of votes starts where the last one left off and tracks all votes and I have broken them out to show significant wagon changes.

Peak Iguana at 5, topped off by CJ's scummy vote which begins his wagon
Haddock (2): Roadrunner7671, theorel
iguanaiguana (5): faust, silverspawn, gkrieg13, LaLight, cheesyjelly
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
silverspawn (1): Awaclus
Awaclus (1): 2.71828.....
Not Voting (4): Haddock, Luckat, EFHW, Skumpy


Iguana down to 4, cheesy up to 5 from none from the same prior wagon
Haddock (2): Roadrunner7671, theorel
iguanaiguana (5): faust, silverspawn, gkrieg13, LaLight, cheesyjelly
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
silverspawn (1): Awaclus
Awaclus (1): 2.71828.....
Skumpy (1): Haddock
CheesyJelly (0): (silverspawn), (skumpy), (theorel), (2.71828.....), (EFWH)
Not Voting (3): Luckat, EFHW, Skumpy


E begins to gain traction interesting move from silver cutting the cj wagon he started once it hit 5. Skumpy jumps ship as well which seems to start off his wagon. Hmm interesting it is many of my town reads doing the vote moving and preventing their own wagon creations from gaining steam into the 6/7 range. Faust even dropped the iguana wagon to rr but he had been on that long enough I find it towny.
Haddock (1): Roadrunner7671
iguanaiguana (4): faust, gkrieg13, LaLight, cheesyjelly
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
silverspawn (1): Awaclus
Skumpy (1): Haddock
CheesyJelly (5): silverspawn, skumpy, theorel, 2.71828....., EFWH
2.71828..... (0): (silverspawn), (Awaclus), (Skumpy)
Roadrunner7671 (0): (faust)
Not Voting (1): Luckat


Skumpy wagon begins most likely due to his move to E note all three votes came within 20 min of eachother though all from separate wagons.
Haddock (1): Roadrunner7671
iguanaiguana (3): gkrieg13, LaLight, cheesyjelly
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
Skumpy (1): Haddock, (Awaclus), (LaLight), (Roadrunner7671)
CheesyJelly (3): theorel, 2.71828....., EFWH
2.71828..... (3): silverspawn, Awaclus, Skumpy
Roadrunner7671 (1): faust
Not Voting (1): Luckat


Gkrieg restarts the cj wagon let see who storms back and if it feels townie or scummy. Skumpy goes to RR I think he finds faust townie, I get the RR wagon, CJ moves to Skumpy, while he is at 4 himself clearly out of self preservation, silverspawn sees this and moves to CJ matching the wagons at 5. Interesting note here, the iguana votes have now all gone away, truly truly looks like a wagon that was on town that scum didn't want to commit more than 2 votes to early. Iguana himself moves to CJ giving us our biggest wagon ever.
iguanaiguana (2): gkrieg13, cheesyjelly
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
Skumpy (4): Haddock, Awaclus, LaLight, Roadrunner7671, (cheesyjelly)
CheesyJelly (3): theorel, 2.71828....., EFWH, (gkrieg13), (silverspawn), (iguanaiguana)
2.71828..... (2): silverspawn, Skumpy
Roadrunner7671 (1): faust, (Skumpy)
Not Voting (1): Luckat


Haddock's super old vote on skumpy drops off it was artificially inflating the count hence why I think some of the later votes in that wagon are scummy, easy to use a lurker vote to inflate a wagon. This is where I join and make my lalight case as well as reference my scum read on CJ. Iguana votes lalight based on that saying he has felt similarly. Cheesy has move to Iguana saying he will go back if needed, self preservation but at this point town is expected to do the same, however going back to iguana feels like a last ditch effort to revitalize the earlier wagon as he feels skumpy wont get lynched, haddock dropping off made it much harder for his scummates to force the wagon on to skumpy in a last minute scramble.
Skumpy (5): Haddock, Awaclus, LaLight, Roadrunner7671, cheesyjelly
CheesyJelly (6): theorel, 2.71828....., EFWH, gkrieg13, silverspawn, iguanaiguana
Roadrunner7671 (1): faust, Skumpy
Lalight (0): (iguanaiguana)
Iguanaiguana (0): (cheesyjelly)
Not Voting (1): Luckat, (Haddock)

PPE: Space has posted where we are at now! More thoughts soon gotta do some work.

[mcmcsalot]

Thoughts:

CJ has had the same group of people voting and suspecting him the entire time. silverspawn, skumpy, theorel, 2.71828....., EFWH, the "joiners" would be gkrieg, iguana, and myself even though I haven't voted, and Silver, skumpy, and iguana have dabbled in other wagons. Interesting to note silver and gkrieg were also on the iguana wagon together, as were cheesy and lalight who are now on the skumpy wagon. This is where my general town read of silver and gkreig vs my general scum read of lalight and cj based on non vote movements lean me towards finding the skumpy wagon scum driven and the cj wagon town driven.

The roadrunner wagon has gone nowhere and has really just been faust sitting on him because rr defended iguana baselessly and if one belives iguana is scum rr follows. Again the fact that the iguana wagon shot up but the RR wagon hasn't gone anywhere lends to the idea that scum liked the iguana wagon and doesn't want to waste time driving up a roadrunner wagon now that they have committed to skumpy.

vote: CheesyJelly L-2

Would still love to get Theorel, EFHW, 2.7 and Gkreigs opinions of my lalaight case.

[faust]

The roadrunner wagon has gone nowhere and has really just been faust sitting on him because rr defended iguana baselessly and if one belives iguana is scum rr follows.

This is not the argument I am making. The argument is rather that RR behaves like his scum self - hedgy, lurky, no opinions, reluctant to join wagons - and not like his town self, which is more independent-minded.

[faust]

While mcmc's post was interesting, I am super not a fan of narrative-building this early as it only serves to reinforce whatever beliefs you already hold, because every narrative is possible. I can as easily explain that iguana was a wagon on scum that his scumpartners deflected and then the townies on it moved off because it wasn't going anywhere as mcmc can claim it was a wagon on town with 2 scums on it. Neither view holds any value unless we can point to a player with confirmed alignment that behaved according to our theory.

[mcmcsalot]

While mcmc's post was interesting, I am super not a fan of narrative-building this early as it only serves to reinforce whatever beliefs you already hold, because every narrative is possible. I can as easily explain that iguana was a wagon on scum that his scumpartners deflected and then the townies on it moved off because it wasn't going anywhere as mcmc can claim it was a wagon on town with 2 scums on it. Neither view holds any value unless we can point to a player with confirmed alignment that behaved according to our theory.

I'm aware you don't like narrative building, I find it vastly more helpful than stating gut reads, might as well play those gut/weak reads out and see where it gets you. I disagree all narratives are possible, some are quickly broken up by voting patterns ect. I do agree simple case making is better but I don't have much more of a case on CJ then skumpy's case and how opportunistic CJ's votes have been. Other than that I have made my simple case on Lalight, his vote for you after voting iguana whom you were pushing and haddock who was the only other person with votes at the time followed by a clumsy "can i get a vote count" and calling iguana out for "worrying about being a top wagon" something he claimed he only does as scum. It looked as though he quickly was voting all the people being voted finding a place where he wanted to sit his scummy vote and didn't take the full time to realize how some of those votes contradicted eachother then sloppily made a case on the person his vote finally ended on.

So dunno what else you want me to do faust I think your tunneling of rr isn't the most helpful, after midday when you made your case on him which was alright, you have kinda just pestered people that they should vote rr and then keep reinforcing that "lots of people find him scummy" not something I found much proof of at all.

and I guess while were at it what do you think of the factual case based stuff I have laid out on Lalight and CJ

[faust]

So dunno what else you want me to do faust I think your tunneling of rr isn't the most helpful, after midday when you made your case on him which was alright, you have kinda just pestered people that they should vote rr and then keep reinforcing that "lots of people find him scummy" not something I found much proof of at all.

Seems weird coming from you...

Roadrunner and lalight came off as the most scummy on this part.

and I guess while were at it what do you think of the factual case based stuff I have laid out on Lalight and CJ

Well I don't see any problem with LaLight voting me first and then the player that I'm voting for. I mean why would that be scummy even? The other part of the case was I think that he didn't comment on theory stuff? Which isn't that surprising when you're VLA. I mean he's not the worst lynch ever, and he hasn't been particularly townie, but I don't see anything that really sways me.

i don't think I read any case from you on Jelly. There's something about vote analysis that is super weak and also based on some townreads that I don't really share. Other than that i think you just said "i think Jelly is scummy" fairly early on without giving any reason.

[mcmcsalot]

alrighty, I think we have slightly different reads, I fell similarly about roadrunner that you do about lalight, hes not a terrible lynch, I don't think there is much there, I reread your case and its just that rr is being hedgy and you didn't like his picks of Lalight, haddock, and gkrieg as scums (I think those are fine picks) and you didn't like his baseless defense of iguana and thought his question about revealing cards at L-1 was scummy. So yea i don't think he's been particularly helpful, he's not the worst lynch ever, but I don't see anything that really sways me.

Also haddock has been around and viewing every once in awhile and isn't posting. He's kinda scummy.

[EFHW]

Would still love to get Theorel, EFHW, 2.7 and Gkreigs opinions of my lalaight case.

I feel like Lalight isn't engaged in the game. I don't feel any sense of ulterior motives or scum agenda, he just seems flighty and not present. The dama stuff is dominating my impression of him the most. Your narrative is consistent, a good story that could be true. I guess I need more.

[mcmcsalot]

Would still love to get Theorel, EFHW, 2.7 and Gkreigs opinions of my lalaight case.

I feel like Lalight isn't engaged in the game. I don't feel any sense of ulterior motives or scum agenda, he just seems flighty and not present. The dama stuff is dominating my impression of him the most. Your narrative is consistent, a good story that could be true. I guess I need more.

Reasonable, whats the more you have on CJ?

[EFHW]

Would still love to get Theorel, EFHW, 2.7 and Gkreigs opinions of my lalaight case.

I feel like Lalight isn't engaged in the game. I don't feel any sense of ulterior motives or scum agenda, he just seems flighty and not present. The dama stuff is dominating my impression of him the most. Your narrative is consistent, a good story that could be true. I guess I need more.

Reasonable, whats the more you have on CJ?

Voting for the same person that faust is voting for is not the same as following his authority.  Faust doesn't own that wagon.  I've contributed little to set-up talk or theory, so I'm going to contribute my vote, and a wagon of one helps nobody.

I find this justification kind of lame. Cheesy Jelly voted when any wagon could still become a going concern. The closer we get to deadline without new wagons emerging, the more committed we are to existing wagons.

This makes me want to support a one vote wagon, but I don't have cases better than this one. vote: CheesyJelly

[CheesyJelly]

Vote: mcmcsalot

I don't have much more of a case on CJ then skumpy's case and how opportunistic CJ's votes have been.

You've put so much work into constructing a scum!me narrative to justify joining my wagon and putting me at L-2, and then immediately hedge by claiming it's not much.  I just don't buy it.


I can't promise I'll be around at the deadline.  At least you'll all have lots of relevant chat about me to look through if I get lynched!  Use it wisely, friends.

[theorel]

Would still love to get Theorel, EFHW, 2.7 and Gkreigs opinions of my lalaight case.

I'm confused...I thought you made the case that lalight is normally upbeat, but was using dama to fake it.  Rereading your case, that's not the case you made at all, did someone else make that case?  Was it about someone else? Was it in a different game?

Um...anyways, basically lalight and cj have been acting a lot in parallel to one another. Both voted faust, both then sheeped faust onto iguana, both then voted for skumpy.  Man that's just weird.  In each case cj followed lalight, and so I find cj scummier for it...it seems more likely for scum to follow a town-player's votes than the other way 'round.

[Skumpy]

The roadrunner wagon has gone nowhere and has really just been faust sitting on him because rr defended iguana baselessly and if one belives iguana is scum rr follows.

This is not the argument I am making. The argument is rather that RR behaves like his scum self - hedgy, lurky, no opinions, reluctant to join wagons - and not like his town self, which is more independent-minded.

And of 11 other people, not one has decided this is a good enough case to jump ship, which has warning signs blazing all over it. CJ, howzabout you vote here? Not that I think mc is the towniest, but you're not getting the support for that today.

I'm not a big fan of narratives or gut reads. On the one hand, I like the deduction, but as faust said, it's too damn tough when we don't know any alignments. And while it's nice to try to build a conspiracy case, then that will absolutely never be 100% right. People are assuming scum's stupid - they're not. They're going to be trying to do as much towny stuff as possible. I won't deny it can have partial success, but I still think there's a lot of murk troubling the waters. On the other hand, gut reads day 1 often lead to trouble for me, or at least I'm 0/1. Still, as faust said, the RR behavior is lining up pretty nicely with scum RR behavior. Right down to the final day prod for not being active. Pretty soon, RR will show up and apologize for not being around then say he'll be back later to make a vote.

On that note: I'm sorry I won't be around, and I'll be back later to change my vote if needed, about an hour before deadline. Admittedly didn't have time to carefully read MC's case, so I guess I'm just tabling it for now in favor of my RR read.

[mcmcsalot]

Would still love to get Theorel, EFHW, 2.7 and Gkreigs opinions of my lalaight case.

I'm confused...I thought you made the case that lalight is normally upbeat, but was using dama to fake it.  Rereading your case, that's not the case you made at all, did someone else make that case?  Was it about someone else? Was it in a different game?

Um...anyways, basically lalight and cj have been acting a lot in parallel to one another. Both voted faust, both then sheeped faust onto iguana, both then voted for skumpy.  Man that's just weird.  In each case cj followed lalight, and so I find cj scummier for it...it seems more likely for scum to follow a town-player's votes than the other way 'round.

No I was saying that lalight is normally upbeat and that makes his posts sound less scummy and underhanded, his dama exacerbated this fact and I think people are letting slide what were some very scummy vote movements and reasons from him during that time.

[silverspawn]

Yeah CJ is a fine lynch.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote: mcmcsalot

I don't have much more of a case on CJ then skumpy's case and how opportunistic CJ's votes have been.

You've put so much work into constructing a scum!me narrative to justify joining my wagon and putting me at L-2, and then immediately hedge by claiming it's not much.  I just don't buy it.


I can't promise I'll be around at the deadline.  At least you'll all have lots of relevant chat about me to look through if I get lynched!  Use it wisely, friends.

this is a misrepresentation and scummary of my thoughts. Sorry I wasn't here to make the post by post cases on players as the action happened I subbed in with mere hours to deadline and then got a 24 hour extension which I didn't even know I would get. The post you are quoting takes out of context that I was responding to faust who called my case very narrative based and that it should have had more direct scum read statements. I was saying that my case was mostly narative based and summarized a large amount of scummy behavior I saw because I am getting at it after the fact, I then go on to site Skumpy's case (your big attack of faust followed by you thinking the iguana case was great followed by what efhw pointed out was a scummy response and reasoning) as the primary basis for me finding you scummy not the only reason. Not hedging, expanding.

[gkrieg13]

wv: mcmcsalot

[gkrieg13]

Sorry guys, this has probably been my lowest activity for a game ever.  Reading along very sporadically and missing entire pages.  I get townie vibes from Mcmcsalot, and faust is also up there.  I don't get what is scummy about skumpy.  CJ still seems scummy to me and iguana has started looking townier.

[gkrieg13]

I don't really want to lynch iguana, mcmcsalot, or faust, and I don't usually want to lynch high-posting people (I think the game is more fun with them, and it is easier to read them).  I also won't be around for deadline (in a meeting), so I'm leaving my vote on CJ.  I might check around before my meeting, but I have to prepare for the meeting so no promises.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 1.8

CheesyJelly (6): theorel, 2.71828....., EFHW, gkrieg13, silverspawn, mcmcsalot
Roadrunner7671 (2): faust, Skumpy
Skumpy (3): Awaclus, LaLight, Roadrunner7671
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
mcmcsalot (1): CheesyJelly
Not Voting (1): Haddock

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.30 forum time on Tuesday 30th January. This is in a little over 2 hours.

[faust]

The people who don't want a Jelly lynch need to coordinate. If there is to be a serious alternative to that lynch, everyone not voting Jelly must be on the same wagon. And say what you will about whether or not Jelly is scummy, but it's always better for analysis if there's actually an alternative.

The other things that we can still call wagons are Skumpy and RR. Skumpy is not going to happen as Skumpy himself is off the Jelly wagon and will hardly self-vote. So, I present you the alternative: RR.

Unless anyone's up for the classic last-minute Awaclus lynch.

[gkrieg13]

The people who don't want a Jelly lynch need to coordinate. If there is to be a serious alternative to that lynch, everyone not voting Jelly must be on the same wagon. And say what you will about whether or not Jelly is scummy, but it's always better for analysis if there's actually an alternative.

The other things that we can still call wagons are Skumpy and RR. Skumpy is not going to happen as Skumpy himself is off the Jelly wagon and will hardly self-vote. So, I present you the alternative: RR.

Unless anyone's up for the classic last-minute Awaclus lynch.

I would vote for RR.

[Roadrunner7671]

Sorry for not being around guys, I'll put a vote somewhere in a bit

[Roadrunner7671]

The roadrunner wagon has gone nowhere and has really just been faust sitting on him because rr defended iguana baselessly and if one belives iguana is scum rr follows.

This is not the argument I am making. The argument is rather that RR behaves like his scum self - hedgy, lurky, no opinions, reluctant to join wagons - and not like his town self, which is more independent-minded.

I'm kidding in my above post btw. In response to this, I'm trying not to setup talk which really limits my activeness (whoops) and also makes me hedgier I guess, maybe. But when you're talking about independent minded, I'd say it's pretty independent to say iguana is town when lots of other people say he's scum, yes?

[silverspawn]

Until he changes his meta, I'm always up for an Awaclus lynch. It has to happen sooner or later anyway.

[Roadrunner7671]

I don't really love skumpy's case on me. I haven't played with him all that much and I'm still getting back into the swing of things, so I think now is a particularly hard time to read me, especially if you're not used to !RR. Faust seems to want to lynch me because I put forth no content (which is fair) but that's also just how I can roll (especially on D1) which I think Faust knows.


Also I'm gonna WV: EFHW if I get the chance.

[Roadrunner7671]

Sorry guys, this has probably been my lowest activity for a game ever.  Reading along very sporadically and missing entire pages.  I get townie vibes from Mcmcsalot, and faust is also up there.  I don't get what is scummy about skumpy.  CJ still seems scummy to me and iguana has started looking townier.

Also, can we talk about how gkrieg gets towny vibes from mcmcsalot 1 minute after voting for him?

[mcmcsalot]

Sorry guys, this has probably been my lowest activity for a game ever.  Reading along very sporadically and missing entire pages.  I get townie vibes from Mcmcsalot, and faust is also up there.  I don't get what is scummy about skumpy.  CJ still seems scummy to me and iguana has started looking townier.

Also, can we talk about how gkrieg gets towny vibes from mcmcsalot 1 minute after voting for him?

He's weak visiting me, not voting. Bolding is confusing

[mcmcsalot]

Until he changes his meta, I'm always up for an Awaclus lynch. It has to happen sooner or later anyway.

I'm kind done with the awaclus policy lynch, I really think I understand stockholm syndrome now and I'm much happier this way.

[Roadrunner7671]

I also feel like Faust (and maybe skumpy too) knows that my lynch is very unlikely to go through but it's easy to sidetrack people and engage them about RR, so it might just be a ploy to waste time and discuss more things that aren't really helpful to catching scum.

[mcmcsalot]

I also feel like Faust (and maybe skumpy too) knows that my lynch is very unlikely to go through but it's easy to sidetrack people and engage them about RR, so it might just be a ploy to waste time and discuss more things that aren't really helpful to catching scum.

But skumpy was all about that CJ wagon so why would he care to distract from it. Faust has said CJ is scummy a couple times but doesn't like not getting his way so hes gotta keep pushing his scum reads, very town!faust and not unhelpful. I see why you might "feel" that way but you should "think" about it.

[Roadrunner7671]

I also feel like Faust (and maybe skumpy too) knows that my lynch is very unlikely to go through but it's easy to sidetrack people and engage them about RR, so it might just be a ploy to waste time and discuss more things that aren't really helpful to catching scum.

But skumpy was all about that CJ wagon so why would he care to distract from it. Faust has said CJ is scummy a couple times but doesn't like not getting his way so hes gotta keep pushing his scum reads, very town!faust and not unhelpful. I see why you might "feel" that way but you should "think" about it.

Because CJ is a scumbuddy of one of {Skumpy, Faust}

[iguanaiguana]

Vote: CJ

[mcmcsalot]

I also feel like Faust (and maybe skumpy too) knows that my lynch is very unlikely to go through but it's easy to sidetrack people and engage them about RR, so it might just be a ploy to waste time and discuss more things that aren't really helpful to catching scum.

But skumpy was all about that CJ wagon so why would he care to distract from it. Faust has said CJ is scummy a couple times but doesn't like not getting his way so hes gotta keep pushing his scum reads, very town!faust and not unhelpful. I see why you might "feel" that way but you should "think" about it.

Because CJ is a scumbuddy of one of {Skumpy, Faust}

But they are both townie, skumpy started the cj wagon and faust was on iguana long before cj was ever suspected and the move to you was as much as he wants to disagree largely influenced by the first read.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote: CJ

L-1 why does nobody do these things anymore jeez people its not difficult and it's always helpful.

[Roadrunner7671]

I also feel like Faust (and maybe skumpy too) knows that my lynch is very unlikely to go through but it's easy to sidetrack people and engage them about RR, so it might just be a ploy to waste time and discuss more things that aren't really helpful to catching scum.

But skumpy was all about that CJ wagon so why would he care to distract from it. Faust has said CJ is scummy a couple times but doesn't like not getting his way so hes gotta keep pushing his scum reads, very town!faust and not unhelpful. I see why you might "feel" that way but you should "think" about it.

Because CJ is a scumbuddy of one of {Skumpy, Faust}

But they are both townie, skumpy started the cj wagon and faust was on iguana long before cj was ever suspected and the move to you was as much as he wants to disagree largely influenced by the first read.

Skumpy started the CJ wagon to get town cred when we learn that CJ is mafia! And iguana is a town read of mine so faust doesn't really get credit for being on iguana long ago.

[mcmcsalot]

Skumpy started the CJ wagon to get town cred when we learn that CJ is mafia! And iguana is a town read of mine so faust doesn't really get credit for being on iguana long ago.

Alright i'll play, gimmie some scummy skumpy moments that don't include votes. Off with ye!

[Skumpy]

I don't really love skumpy's case on me. I haven't played with him all that much and I'm still getting back into the swing of things, so I think now is a particularly hard time to read me, especially if you're not used to !RR.

I could say the same to you. And I don't think anyone really loves cases against them.

I also feel like Faust (and maybe skumpy too) knows that my lynch is very unlikely to go through but it's easy to sidetrack people and engage them about RR, so it might just be a ploy to waste time and discuss more things that aren't really helpful to catching scum.

But skumpy was all about that CJ wagon so why would he care to distract from it. Faust has said CJ is scummy a couple times but doesn't like not getting his way so hes gotta keep pushing his scum reads, very town!faust and not unhelpful. I see why you might "feel" that way but you should "think" about it.

Because CJ is a scumbuddy of one of {Skumpy, Faust}

Not gonna comment on the faust part of the theory, but that's straight up insane to think after half the people here were being absent-ish, town somehow managed to get 2 correct wagons. And I'm even thinking it's not much better to imagine town got one correct wagon, especially since the votes have all been going not my way.

I also feel like Faust (and maybe skumpy too) knows that my lynch is very unlikely to go through but it's easy to sidetrack people and engage them about RR, so it might just be a ploy to waste time and discuss more things that aren't really helpful to catching scum.

This is the pot calling the kettle black. If you're so concerned about wasting time, then don't get yourself prodded.

Sorry for being Grumpy Skumpy. Regardless of your alignment, it's frustrating.

[faust]

Until he changes his meta, I'm always up for an Awaclus lynch. It has to happen sooner or later anyway.

Cool. Vote: Awaclus

And with this i think I'm out for today. Might check in later, but don't count on it.

[mcmcsalot]

Until he changes his meta, I'm always up for an Awaclus lynch. It has to happen sooner or later anyway.

Cool. Vote: Awaclus

And with this i think I'm out for today. Might check in later, but don't count on it.

Really you can't check in in one hour to lynch CJ if we don't have the votes? I mean I'm not worried about getting the votes but ya know fo real?

[mcmcsalot]

Until he changes his meta, I'm always up for an Awaclus lynch. It has to happen sooner or later anyway.

Cool. Vote: Awaclus

And with this i think I'm out for today. Might check in later, but don't count on it.

Also mister "secondary wagons are helpful juuuuust kidding gonna make a null vote and peace out fam see ya tomorrow but not really cuz i'm a ded boi"

[theorel]

So, is scum avoiding the CJ wagon, because they don't want to get their hands dirty and CJ's town, or are they hoping that they can get away without him being lynched somehow?  I mean, if he's scum scum would have hammered for the cred right?

Or maybe they're just not around to try to do that?  I dunno, maybe I'm just getting cold feet.  I prefer being absent at deadlines...

[Skumpy]

So let's chit chat about the Cheesy Jelly.

I made that vote (which wasn't influenced by SS at all getting there first, keep in mind) based on the only tangible thing there was at the time - the incongruity between CJ voting faust then joining him on the Iguana wagon. I'd done my setup shpeal for as long as I could make it last with the three other people who were willing. That ended, time to make a non-RVS vote. I'm not persuasive or a good-decision maker when it comes to votes, so if other people are hopping on, that tells me it's more likely scum wants to join then people are actually swayed. Hence, the e vote. Which I'm still OK with. Because when you switch up the wagons last minute, scum doesn't get comfortable sitting on the same stuff for 50 hours. There's been

The other thing that concerns me is: if CJ is scum, then where are the other 3? Maybe another on me. One's probably bussing. And the fourth? In Haddock/faust? Another bus? I guess it's not crazy, but it's easier for me to believe scum's split pretty comfortably.

I mean, it's looking like CJ's getting lynched, especially with faust gone, but I have to throw out my thoughts before it happens. Is a no lynch bonkers crazy this game? How much info do we expect to get from night actions? Because if we're wrong, 8-4 is not a ratio I'm in love with.

[theorel]

Like at this moment it seems clear that absent some crazy scenario CJ is lynched by EOD.  So, what possible reason could scum have to not participate, right?  Unless they were not online since before mcmc's vote...at that point it was possible some other lynch could happen.  Why are we so spread out?  At some point town has to compromise and just make a lynch happen...
@mcmc: any thoughts?

[theorel]

I think with the amount of nk-blocking we potentially have available, that no-lynching is not ideal.  Yes parity was bad today, and will probably be bad tomorrow (unless we get a lucky commuter/doctor), but we could easily get an extra lynch by game's end.  But if we no-lynch then we need to have no-nk twice to get an extra lynch.

[Skumpy]

Like at this moment it seems clear that absent some crazy scenario CJ is lynched by EOD.  So, what possible reason could scum have to not participate, right?  Unless they were not online since before mcmc's vote...at that point it was possible some other lynch could happen.  Why are we so spread out?  At some point town has to compromise and just make a lynch happen...
@mcmc: any thoughts?

For the record, I'm allergic to hammers until it's absolutely required. And it's looking like it will be. No reason to waste an hour for discussion in the meantime, I'm around.

If CJ's not scum, then what makes you think scum's not already there. I'd be absolutely shocked if there's not at least one scum on my wagon, meaning in {RR, LL, Awaclus}. Speaking of which: if RR is so convinced by the CJ team, then why is he so unhappy about leaving me?

[mcmcsalot]

So, is scum avoiding the CJ wagon, because they don't want to get their hands dirty and CJ's town, or are they hoping that they can get away without him being lynched somehow?  I mean, if he's scum scum would have hammered for the cred right?

Or maybe they're just not around to try to do that?  I dunno, maybe I'm just getting cold feet.  I prefer being absent at deadlines...

I think it has to do with the assumed voters giving people some leway. Haddock stated he would vote to get a lynch and with skumpy being active and on cj for awhile it will probably go through so town players who dislike it can chill and scum can pretend to be that.

Remember we are dealing with:

Roadrunner7671 (2): faust, Skumpy - were still pushing this wagon safe to do these are active players who would I think make sure they didn't kill a lynch but leave opportunity for change.
Skumpy (3): Awaclus, LaLight, Roadrunner7671 - the opposing wagon, I think there is definitely at least one scum(lalight) maybe two no reason for them to leave, awaclus has been mia since before I arrived, lalight left earlier today and I would guess plans on missing deadline.
mcmcsalot (1): CheesyJelly - strange he's not on skumpy but regardless of alignment not voting for himself (if we are right about his scumminess not being on skumpy does suggest scum are just trying to no lynch)
Awaclus (0): (Faust) - really don't like the move to awaclus its unhelpful
Not Voting (1): Haddock - very scummy that he hasn't been more active with his thought, could easily be scum saying i'll vote X to get a lynch through and then fake a missed deadline.

[mcmcsalot]

I think with the amount of nk-blocking we potentially have available, that no-lynching is not ideal.  Yes parity was bad today, and will probably be bad tomorrow (unless we get a lucky commuter/doctor), but we could easily get an extra lynch by game's end.  But if we no-lynch then we need to have no-nk twice to get an extra lynch.

Thanks for running the number, I think we can expect at least on no kill night by games end between floor movement, doctoring and commuting. Also currently a weak visit is a totally worthwhile trade, so yea no lynch is bad.

[faust]

Until he changes his meta, I'm always up for an Awaclus lynch. It has to happen sooner or later anyway.

Cool. Vote: Awaclus

And with this i think I'm out for today. Might check in later, but don't count on it.

Also mister "secondary wagons are helpful juuuuust kidding gonna make a null vote and peace out fam see ya tomorrow but not really cuz i'm a ded boi"

7 people are voting Jelly. That means no other wagon can succeed without people abandoning Jelly. They have made clear that they won't switch to RR, so there's no point.

[theorel]

Yeah, I'm not asking why town hasn't lynched CJ...that's perfectly reasonable.  I'm asking why (if CJ is scum) hasn't scum hammered him?  Do they think that they've offered to hammer and can miss deadline to get a no lynch?  I mean I just have trouble imagining that situation actually happening...but I guess it could if all 3 scum were staying off, and faust was being belligerent town.  I mean if scum actually makes us lynch scum (i.e. doesn't bus) we only get 2 votes able to be elsewhere.
I just feel like it's unlikely at this point, but then there seem to only be 3 of us active atm...so we're also missing at least 7 town players, that aren't bothering to show up (or post) at end of day.

[mcmcsalot]

Until he changes his meta, I'm always up for an Awaclus lynch. It has to happen sooner or later anyway.

Cool. Vote: Awaclus

And with this i think I'm out for today. Might check in later, but don't count on it.

Also mister "secondary wagons are helpful juuuuust kidding gonna make a null vote and peace out fam see ya tomorrow but not really cuz i'm a ded boi"

7 people are voting Jelly. That means no other wagon can succeed without people abandoning Jelly. They have made clear that they won't switch to RR, so there's no point.

The people who don't want a Jelly lynch need to coordinate. If there is to be a serious alternative to that lynch, everyone not voting Jelly must be on the same wagon. And say what you will about whether or not Jelly is scummy, but it's always better for analysis if there's actually an alternative.

The other things that we can still call wagons are Skumpy and RR. Skumpy is not going to happen as Skumpy himself is off the Jelly wagon and will hardly self-vote. So, I present you the alternative: RR.

Unless anyone's up for the classic last-minute Awaclus lynch.

It's just strange for you to feel that way but also abandon your vote moments before day end. People rarely even do wagon analysis these days and quoting the final vote count will misrepresent what you have been pushing for the latter half of the day.

[theorel]

or 6 since faust is actually still here.

[EFHW]

Do we need to last minute switch? I've only skimmed recent posts, but it sounded like there were thoughts about an Awaclus wagon.

[EFHW]

CheesyJelly is not here to claim.

[theorel]

Do we need to last minute switch? I've only skimmed recent posts, but it sounded like there were thoughts about an Awaclus wagon.

I don't know that we need a last minute switch.  But I'm wondering aloud if we shouldn't consider it.
faust and silver have expressed a willingness to lynch awaclus

[mcmcsalot]

Yeah, I'm not asking why town hasn't lynched CJ...that's perfectly reasonable.  I'm asking why (if CJ is scum) hasn't scum hammered him?  Do they think that they've offered to hammer and can miss deadline to get a no lynch?  I mean I just have trouble imagining that situation actually happening...but I guess it could if all 3 scum were staying off, and faust was being belligerent town.  I mean if scum actually makes us lynch scum (i.e. doesn't bus) we only get 2 votes able to be elsewhere.
I just feel like it's unlikely at this point, but then there seem to only be 3 of us active atm...so we're also missing at least 7 town players, that aren't bothering to show up (or post) at end of day.

Yep, I've got my post count que'd up I'm the 5th most active player out of 14 in 24 hours. Scum is absolutely forcing town to lynch CJ, as soon as someone like haddock and Skumpy mention will lynch before deadline it gives scum the out to just say sorry I wasn't around, I didn't want to lynch X and Y said they would vote. Haddock is very scummily not around.

PPE: were good EFHW just using our discussion time and seeing who checks in.

[theorel]

CheesyJelly is not here to claim.

What's he going to claim?  his hand (which has basically no impact)?

[EFHW]

CheesyJelly is not here to claim.

What's he going to claim?  his hand (which has basically no impact)?

Right. Force of habit.

[EFHW]

I'd rather do Awaclus than no lynch.  Is there some hope someone will show up?

[mcmcsalot]

I'd rather do Awaclus than no lynch.  Is there some hope someone will show up?

For the record, I'm allergic to hammers until it's absolutely required. And it's looking like it will be. No reason to waste an hour for discussion in the meantime, I'm around.

Skumpy is around were he to not hammer with 5 min left I would be very upset.

[EFHW]

Ok. Just as well because we don't have enough people around to switch successfully.

[Skumpy]

I don't know how to read Awaclus. He's making bad votes, not contributing...the usual Awaclus. I've never played with scumAwaclus, so I have a hard time imagining how he'd change it up. Having said that...I just don't trust Awaclus to be a team player at night. I honestly wonder if it's a good lynch even if he's town. That's very scummy to say, I know. That's why it's not Skummy 

Still, 8 votes in 30 minutes not going to be happening.

PPE: Faking missing deadline is not something I'd ever do. 2:30, the lynch is coming if needed.

[Skumpy]

Forgot you people don't live out west. 5:30 forum time

[Skumpy]

PM

[mcmcsalot]

Haddock, lalight, and awaclus not showing up is very scummy in that order. They are the only non wagon non cj people not to show up. Roadrunner was here and I sent him on a mission to convince me of skumpy's scummyness a couple hours ago but now hes gone. I do think he wasn't worried we would get a lynch through though.

Ok. Just as well because we don't have enough people around to switch successfully.

Yep as 2.7/gkrieg/silver are not here and CJ is not even voting the non him highest wagon.

[Awaclus]

Until he changes his meta, I'm always up for an Awaclus lynch. It has to happen sooner or later anyway.

I'm not going to start playing in a proscum way just because you want me to do so.

[mcmcsalot]

PM

stop padding that post count hoping to break top four and I'll never catch you like that!

[Awaclus]

What time is the deadline in some real timezone? To this date I don't have any idea what "forum time" is.

[Awaclus]

Preferably using the  [time] tags but UTC will do.

[Haddock]

Sorry, am still here.

[Skumpy]

PM

stop padding that post count hoping to break top four and I'll never catch you like that!

Naw, word count is where it's at. Normally, I'd be ahead by miles, but I'm doing a pretty good job this game of not vomiting out the useless jargon nobody cares about.

By the way, what did we decide with mouse wiggling? Random?

[Haddock]

Totally forgot about this til now.

[Haddock]

No way anything else is going through, so I'll hammer if no-one has any objections.

Want it on record that I'm not happy about it.

[Skumpy]

Let's finish setup talk first. What do you think Haddock?

[mcmcsalot]

What time is the deadline in some real timezone? To this date I don't have any idea what "forum time" is.

Forum time is Eastern Standard Time, UTC-5 and its at 5:30 that time. Might be UTC-4 currently since daylight savings time. its in 28 min

[Haddock]

Let's finish setup talk first. What do you think Haddock?

What are you asking?

I have no idea about the setup. To be honest I was gonna read all the talk again during the night to figure out what to do.

[theorel]

PM

stop padding that post count hoping to break top four and I'll never catch you like that!

Naw, word count is where it's at. Normally, I'd be ahead by miles, but I'm doing a pretty good job this game of not vomiting out the useless jargon nobody cares about.

By the way, what did we decide with mouse wiggling? Random?

Pretty sure I'm wiggling.  The only person that objected was silver who objected to mouse being wiggled at all.

[mcmcsalot]

Essentially End of day Post Count:

90 (77) - faust (17)
76 (65) - silverspawn (13)
47 (37) - LaLight (11)
44 (30) - Skumpy (0)
38 (2) - mcmcsalot (0)
37 (27) - EFHW (5)
31 (19) - theorel (1)
24 (17) - Roadrunner (6)
23 (15) - Iguana (3)
23 (20) - Awaclus (7)
17 (15) - CheesyJelly (2)
14 (9) - Haddock (5)
13 (13) - e (1)
11 (7) - gkrieg (4)


Gotta walk home.

[Awaclus]

its in 28 min

That's good enough. Thanks.

[Skumpy]

Space, you said 17:35. I demand the extra 5 minutes!

I endorse this

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-C?

Whoever does too, stick to it. That's the best we can get at this point, unfortunately.

2 questions:
Are you Ok with this?
Can you do all 3 if needed?

[iguanaiguana]

I'm here. Sorry I missed L-1. I was still at work. I think CJ is an OK lynch, that's why I voted him. Of everyone who had a wagon today,  I think he's the most likely to actually be scum.

[Haddock]

To clarify: I know (pretty much) what the setup is, but I haven't had the time to actually figure out what's best.

Someone posted a list of what first 3 people should do. I'll go with that if I'm one of those.


I've said about wving.

As for whether or not to wiggle, silver and Faust have presumably spent ages thinking about this and can't agree, so I have no idea.

[Skumpy]

PM

stop padding that post count hoping to break top four and I'll never catch you like that!

Naw, word count is where it's at. Normally, I'd be ahead by miles, but I'm doing a pretty good job this game of not vomiting out the useless jargon nobody cares about.

By the way, what did we decide with mouse wiggling? Random?

Pretty sure I'm wiggling.  The only person that objected was silver who objected to mouse being wiggled at all.

In that case: IF THEOREL IS TOP 3, EVERYONE BEHIND SHIFT UP A SPOT WHO'S WILLING!

[Haddock]

Space, you said 17:35. I demand the extra 5 minutes!

I endorse this

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-C?

Whoever does too, stick to it. That's the best we can get at this point, unfortunately.

2 questions:
Are you Ok with this?
Can you do all 3 if needed?

I'm fine going with that. I can do any of the three.

[Haddock]

Before I hammer can someone clarify the deal with weak visiting? No way everyone can try that, so who's doing their claimed wvs?

[mcmcsalot]

PM

stop padding that post count hoping to break top four and I'll never catch you like that!

SMART THIS

PPE everyone posted just in case two people turn up dead
Naw, word count is where it's at. Normally, I'd be ahead by miles, but I'm doing a pretty good job this game of not vomiting out the useless jargon nobody cares about.

By the way, what did we decide with mouse wiggling? Random?

Pretty sure I'm wiggling.  The only person that objected was silver who objected to mouse being wiggled at all.

In that case: IF THEOREL IS TOP 3, EVERYONE BEHIND SHIFT UP A SPOT WHO'S WILLING!

[Skumpy]

Before I hammer can someone clarify the deal with weak visiting? No way everyone can try that, so who's doing their claimed wvs?

The point is everyone names a WV target. If you do decide to WV, stick to it no matter what so that if you die, we have a good idea of what might have happened. Let me restate the final setup plan one last time before you hammer.

PPE: Broken quotes mc.

[theorel]

Before I hammer can someone clarify the deal with weak visiting? No way everyone can try that, so who's doing their claimed wvs?

whoever does it, does it...
if 2 people die overnight.  One of them likely weak-visited...and so we have a decent idea that one of the 2 targets is scum.

[mcmcsalot]

PM

stop padding that post count hoping to break top four and I'll never catch you like that!

Naw, word count is where it's at. Normally, I'd be ahead by miles, but I'm doing a pretty good job this game of not vomiting out the useless jargon nobody cares about.

By the way, what did we decide with mouse wiggling? Random?

Pretty sure I'm wiggling.  The only person that objected was silver who objected to mouse being wiggled at all.

In that case: IF THEOREL IS TOP 3, EVERYONE BEHIND SHIFT UP A SPOT WHO'S WILLING!

SMART THIS

PPE everyone posted just in case two people turn up dead


Fixed it’s cold outside glove posting

[Haddock]

Before I hammer can someone clarify the deal with weak visiting? No way everyone can try that, so who's doing their claimed wvs?

whoever does it, does it...
if 2 people die overnight.  One of them likely weak-visited...and so we have a decent idea that one of the 2 targets is scum.

Gotcha, yep, thanks.

[Skumpy]

THE FINAL PLAN  (which faust is not happy about)

1st in turn order should: Move Red, Go Down, Use B to fill the pool
2nd in turn order should: Go Down White, Replenish the Pool with B, Get a Printout with A
3rd in turn order should: Move Blue, Go Down, Zone Monitor with C

If Theorel is, say 2nd, then 3rd and 4th should do 2nd and 3rd because Theorel's first action will be to wiggle the mouse.

Ideally, it would've been good to know who can do what. Other than Theorel, only EFHW has acknowledged there is at least one action they would be unable to do. Skumpy and Haddock have said they can do it all. If you cannot do your task, that's bad, but try to do as much as you possibly can. B is an acceptable alternative to A or C if needed.

Reason for the plan: Accountability, takes care of maintenance, hopefully disuaded at least some scum from rising up the player order. Unlikely people will be unable to perform one specific task, and scum putting off the task to another later scum runs a risk of getting caught.


-Signed by SKUMPY, mcmc, theorel, SilverSpawn

[silverspawn]

oh right, this. I'm here.

[silverspawn]

SilverSpawn

I know there are bigger points, but are you trying to annoy me or is this accidental?   

[Haddock]

Cool.

hammering in 2 minutes.


Sorry cj.  Here's hoping you're scum...

[Skumpy]

SilverSpawn

I know there are bigger points, but are you trying to annoy me or is this accidental?   

If you mean the signing, I thought you were onboard?
If you mean the caps, accidental. It felt right.

[silverspawn]

It's not right. I get annoyed if people spell it uppercase, but spelling it double uppercase ugh cmon

[Haddock]

vote: CJ

[silverspawn]

But yes I do support the plan.

[silverspawn]

And the lynch, too.

[theorel]

c'mon space, we need a flip...stop making us wait.

[Skumpy]

It's not right. I get annoyed if people spell it uppercase, but spelling it double uppercase ugh cmon

I would've edited, I swear, but I was in a rush. Sorry.

[silverspawn]

But I don't support disclosing information about what you can and can't do at all.

[silverspawn]

Before I hammer can someone clarify the deal with weak visiting? No way everyone can try that, so who's doing their claimed wvs?

The point is that in the unlikely case that we do WV, town will know whom we targeted. There are surprisingly few downsides to this. We do not want to disclose who is actually doing it, that has significant downsides. It may be that no-one is doing it.

[theorel]

But I don't support disclosing information about what you can and can't do at all.

I think knowing someone can't do at least one of those 3 actions is helpful for town, even if they don't know why.  It just means they don't have a particular tripling of cards available, which seems minimally informative to scum.

[Awaclus]

vote: CJ

This was the hammer?

[Haddock]

Before I hammer can someone clarify the deal with weak visiting? No way everyone can try that, so who's doing their claimed wvs?

The point is that in the unlikely case that we do WV, town will know whom we targeted. There are surprisingly few downsides to this. We do not want to disclose who is actually doing it, that has significant downsides. It may be that no-one is doing it.

Yup, got that eventually. Thanks

[Haddock]

vote: CJ

This was the hammer?

Afaik

[Skumpy]

vote: CJ

This was the hammer?

Yep. I'm guessing town, here's hoping I'm wrong.

@ss  Agree with Theorel, but doesn't matter now.

[Awaclus]

vote: CJ

This was the hammer?

Afaik

Might as well make sure I guess.
vote: CJ

[Awaclus]

Yep. I'm guessing town

"guessing"

[silverspawn]

CheesyJelly is not here to claim.

There is really nothing to claim here on day 1.

[Skumpy]

Yep. I'm guessing town

"guessing"

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 1.final

CheesyJelly (8): theorel, 2.71828....., EFHW, gkrieg13, silverspawn, mcmcsalot, iguanaiguana, Haddock
Skumpy (3): Awaclus, LaLight, Roadrunner7671
Roadrunner7671 (1): Skumpy
mcmcsalot (1): CheesyJelly
Awaclus (1): faust

With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.

[SpaceAnemone]

CheesyJelly has been lynched! They were Townie. You monsters.

Well, the situation on board the ship is far from ideal. Our PR office here are having a difficult enough time as it is! If you can see fit not to mention any of this hysteria in your telegrams back to parents and loved ones, the company will see to it that your names don't get out there.

Unfortunate though the timing is, our first Space Phase assignment will begin imminently. This is your first chance to operate the Sitting Duck completely independently, while Ground Control drops out of comm reach for a while. Use your actions carefully and wisely!

Player order for N1 is:
1: Awaclus
2: Skumpy
3: theorel
4: gkrieg
5: silverspawn
6: Haddock
7: EFHW
8: faust
9: mcmcsalot
10: e
11: Iguana
12: LaLight
13: Roadrunner

N1 Space Phase begins now and ends at 22.30 forum time on Thursday 1st February. Please submit your card play in your personal QTs before this deadline.

D2 will likely start on the afternoon/evening (forum time) of the following day, Friday 2nd February.

Thread Locked.

[SpaceAnemone]

Good morning, crew! I hope you've all had a nice rest after flexing your muscles in that recent jaunt. Losing another crew member so soon after that last incident is regrettable, but these things happen, and there are still lots of you left, so that's a plus!

What? Nobody mentioned it yet? Well, our sensors show that mcmcsalot was killed in the night. They were Townie, too. I do hope none of you had become too attached to him in the short time he was with your crew. It may be best to hold onto the body in a freezer somewhere, in case we want to investigate when you're safely back home. Either that, or hold onto it so you have something to jettison as a diversion in case of trouble with alien encounters later on in your mission. Rather a shame CJ's corpse didn't end up on the ship for that sort of thing, eh? At least now you've got a spare!

You've got a good earth-week till your next unsupervised manoeuvre, so take this time to get to know your crewmates and their motivations a bit better, study hard to keep your field knowledge up to speed, and be sure to keep the Sitting Duck spick and span!



Vote Count 2.0

Not voting (12): Haddock, faust, gkrieg, EFHW, LaLight, Skumpy, theorel, Iguana, silverspawn, Awaclus, e, Roadrunner

With 12 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D2 begins now, and ends at noon forum time on Friday 9th February.

Red pool: 1
White pool: 5
Blue pool: 2

Thread Unlocked!

[faust]

Ha. Not terribly surprising, that.

[faust]

So. I've been thinking. Now comes something that will put off some of you, I can feel it coming. But still.

I'm clearly the towniest player alive, so I think it would be in town's best interest if you let me decide everything on claiming. Basically, treat me as an IC today, I will coordinate claiming, and that way we'll have the best shot of catching scum.

[faust]

With 12 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Shouldn't this be 7?

[faust]

There's actually interesting thoughts to be had about stuff and things, but it might be better to hold off until claims are done.

[faust]

Since you're leaving all the talking to me, let's just note how large the intersection of people on the Jelly wagon and people in the top half of the player order is. That is a superb place to start looking for scums.

[silverspawn]

Since you're leaving all the talking to me, let's just note how large the intersection of people on the Jelly wagon and people in the top half of the player order is. That is a superb place to start looking for scums.

why does player order matter...?

[SpaceAnemone]

With 12 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Shouldn't this be 7?

Yes

[faust]

Since you're leaving all the talking to me, let's just note how large the intersection of people on the Jelly wagon and people in the top half of the player order is. That is a superb place to start looking for scums.

why does player order matter...?

During the day phase, any scum player may request in the Scum QT to be placed in the upper half of the turn order for the next Space Phase. (Turn order will be public knowledge).

As, you know, you yourself asked about the previous day.

You may also request during the day phase to be placed in the top half of the random player ordering for the following Space Phase.

How exactly does this work? Can every mafia do this every time and it always flies?

Vote: silverspawn

[silverspawn]

... doesn't that make this a semi-townslip? Why are you voting for me?

[silverspawn]

I did indeed forget about that.

[faust]

... doesn't that make this a semi-townslip? Why are you voting for me?

It makes it an obvious fake townslip. Given that much of our debate about planning was to make top spots less attractive to scum, I am not buying this ignorance at all.

[silverspawn]

hm okay

[silverspawn]

hm okay

But don't I have a long and slightly embarrassing history of making these kinds of mistakes all the time?

[faust]

hm okay

But don't I have a long and slightly embarrassing history of making these kinds of mistakes all the time?

I don't know; do you?

[faust]

Don't expect me to make your defense for you.

[theorel]

Could we get energy distributions? (as well as any sabotage information we're supposed to get)
[q]
Each player is dealt 3 new cards at random (from D2 onwards), which they hold in addition to their previous hand. Some actions in a preceding night phase may allow a player to receive extra cards. If anything happened to the ship in the preceding night phase (sabotage or computer lock-out), these will be announced at daybreak, along with energy distributions. During the day phase, any scum player may request in the Scum QT to be placed in the upper half of the turn order for the next Space Phase. (Turn order will be public knowledge).[/q]

[Awaclus]

Don't expect me to make your defense for you.

Unfortunately, silverspawn believes that you have to convince him that he's scum before you can vote for him.

[silverspawn]

I'm not sure how serious you are about this, but I don't feel like I need to defend myself more.

does top half include the middle position?

I do agree with you, on the substance. vote: Awaclus

[Awaclus]

I'm not sure how serious you are about this, but I don't feel like I need to defend myself more.

does top half include the middle position?

I do agree with you, on the substance. vote: Awaclus

I'm not convinced that I'm scum so you voting for me is anti-town and annoying.

[faust]

I do agree with you, on the substance. vote: Awaclus

If you agree with me, then why exactly are you voting for a player that is not in the set of players I talked about...?

[SpaceAnemone]

No, my algorithm for picking the upper half does not include selecting the middle element of an odd-sized set in this case.

The ship appears to be functioning nominally for D2/going into Space Phase 2.

Red pool: 0
White pool: 5
Blue pool: 2

[silverspawn]

I agree that everyone in the top half gets scum points. I'm not as sold on the wagon mattering.

[EFHW]

So. I've been thinking. Now comes something that will put off some of you, I can feel it coming. But still.

I'm clearly the towniest player alive, so I think it would be in town's best interest if you let me decide everything on claiming. Basically, treat me as an IC today, I will coordinate claiming, and that way we'll have the best shot of catching scum.

Yeah, I don't think so.

[EFHW]

Your intersection theory is worth looking into further.

[EFHW]

Theorel, gkrieg, silver and Haddock...

[gkrieg13]

I think especially for this first round there was incentive for scum to get into the top half of the ordering, more than for future rounds.  I only want to lynch people in the top half of the ordering.

[gkrieg13]

I agree that everyone in the top half gets scum points. I'm not as sold on the wagon mattering.

Why not?

[silverspawn]

Well, because I found it not at all obvious that CJ was town. And most likely the other wagon was on a town, too.

[Skumpy]

If anyone cares, the Wednesday fortune cookie said that "A good day is around the corner". Not really sure if that's a true one anymore.

So. I've been thinking. Now comes something that will put off some of you, I can feel it coming. But still.

I'm clearly the towniest player alive, so I think it would be in town's best interest if you let me decide everything on claiming. Basically, treat me as an IC today, I will coordinate claiming, and that way we'll have the best shot of catching scum.

Count me in on 'put off'. Unfortunately, I don't really have a better idea. It'd be nice of you to leave it as a democracy after you decide, but in any event, the sooner the better. If you happen to care, I'd say anyone who monitored should claim first.

As for the intersection theory, if you pick 4 people out of 12, then I'd hope you're catching a scum. I'd personally rather lynch from a pool that I could make smaller, such as my wagon. And I'm still leaning towards LaLight as town, so I would be absolutely baffled if neither Roadrunner nor Awaclus was scum.

Is 'absolutely baffled' a really scummy phrase? It feels scummy to type.

[Skumpy]

Well, because I found it not at all obvious that CJ was town. And most likely the other wagon was on a town, too.

Agreed and true, but you do know I was in the top half, right?

[Roadrunner7671]

vote: faust

[EFHW]

Well, because I found it not at all obvious that CJ was town.

This is a good point. And 4/12 isn't very helpful.

[Awaclus]

I agree that everyone in the top half gets scum points. I'm not as sold on the wagon mattering.

Why not?

Because he's scum and he was on the wagon.

[faust]

Theorel, gkrieg, silver and Haddock...

Let's not froget about you...

[faust]

Well, because I found it not at all obvious that CJ was town. And most likely the other wagon was on a town, too.

Which other wagon are you referring to?

[EFHW]

Theorel, gkrieg, silver and Haddock...

Let's not froget about you...

I was #7, not in the top half. But I'm happy not to be forgotten.

[Skumpy]

Hope everybody had a good Friday.

Vote: Awaclus

[2.71828.....]

Friday was ok, looking forward to the weekend.

That being said, yes. Scum points for people in the to half. It is all wifom, but still. If we are going to randomly call people scum it's as good a measure as any other.

[2.71828.....]

Also, I feel terrible for not being around to end day 1. Won't let that happen again. My vote was not likely to move though, I thought CJ displayed characteristics in this game that made me think he was town when he was scum in previous games, so I was content with my vote, disappointed with the result

[faust]

Well, because I found it not at all obvious that CJ was town.

This is a good point. And 4/12 isn't very helpful.

It is if 2 of those are scum.

[faust]

Theorel, gkrieg, silver and Haddock...

Let's not froget about you...

I was #7, not in the top half. But I'm happy not to be forgotten.

Well, 13/2 is a difficult calculation!

[faust]

So the reactions to my claims proposal have been...weird? People seemed to not like it. But none of the critiques offered an alternative. I think it's fairly obvious that we need to claim stuff.

So, here's a proposal: Everyone who successfully used roleblock tonight claims now, including target.

[silverspawn]

I think you should coordinate. I didn't roleblock.

[Skumpy]

So the reactions to my claims proposal have been...weird? People seemed to not like it. But none of the critiques offered an alternative. I think it's fairly obvious that we need to claim stuff.

So, here's a proposal: Everyone who successfully used roleblock tonight claims now, including target.

Not really the order I would've preferred - I'd say deck monitoring comes first to prove you know what you're talking about. Oh well. Ball's gotta get rolling at some point, and nobody else is saying much.

I roleblocked Awaclus.

[faust]

So the reactions to my claims proposal have been...weird? People seemed to not like it. But none of the critiques offered an alternative. I think it's fairly obvious that we need to claim stuff.

So, here's a proposal: Everyone who successfully used roleblock tonight claims now, including target.

Not really the order I would've preferred - I'd say deck monitoring comes first to prove you know what you're talking about. Oh well. Ball's gotta get rolling at some point, and nobody else is saying much.

I roleblocked Awaclus.

So you, who spent all D1 pestering me about my refusal to coordinate, did not follow the plan? 

[Skumpy]

So the reactions to my claims proposal have been...weird? People seemed to not like it. But none of the critiques offered an alternative. I think it's fairly obvious that we need to claim stuff.

So, here's a proposal: Everyone who successfully used roleblock tonight claims now, including target.

Not really the order I would've preferred - I'd say deck monitoring comes first to prove you know what you're talking about. Oh well. Ball's gotta get rolling at some point, and nobody else is saying much.

I roleblocked Awaclus.

So you, who spent all D1 pestering me about my refusal to coordinate, did not follow the plan? 

You said:

Everyone who successfully used roleblock tonight claims now, including target.

I didn't say that it was the intended result of my actions, if you catch my meaning...

[faust]

Interesting.

[Skumpy]

Interesting.

Hardly. The better word is 'unsurprising', or maybe even 'expected'.

I don't know how to read Awaclus. He's making bad votes, not contributing...the usual Awaclus. I've never played with scumAwaclus, so I have a hard time imagining how he'd change it up. Having said that...I just don't trust Awaclus to be a team player at night. I honestly wonder if it's a good lynch even if he's town.

[Awaclus]

I can confirm that someone used roleblock.

[faust]

Okay, I mean after a bit of thinking it turns out that Awaclus' play is just plain stupid as either alignment. So I guess that points to town!anti-town!Awaclus.

[Awaclus]

Okay, I mean after a bit of thinking it turns out that Awaclus' play is just plain stupid as either alignment. So I guess that points to town!anti-town!Awaclus.

I shouldn't have confirmed Skumpy's roleblock claim?

[faust]

Okay, I mean after a bit of thinking it turns out that Awaclus' play is just plain stupid as either alignment. So I guess that points to town!anti-town!Awaclus.

I shouldn't have confirmed Skumpy's roleblock claim?

No, your night actions were stupid. You knew Skumpy would play according to plan, and you blocked the proper execution, causing his lift to fail. So that mean he uses Roleblock. On whom does he use it? Of course, on the only player that would cause him using Roleblock in the first case: you. That means you

- wasted 1 energy from the central pool by having Skumpy roleblock you
- wasted 1 action of yours that was presumably roleblocked
- blocked the lift for a player that is now confirmed to be upper deck.

If you ask me, that is a horrible outcome, and it wouldn't have taken a lot of thought to foresee this.

[EFHW]

Okay, I mean after a bit of thinking it turns out that Awaclus' play is just plain stupid as either alignment. So I guess that points to town!anti-town!Awaclus.

I shouldn't have confirmed Skumpy's roleblock claim?

No, your night actions were stupid. You knew Skumpy would play according to plan, and you blocked the proper execution, causing his lift to fail. So that mean he uses Roleblock. On whom does he use it? Of course, on the only player that would cause him using Roleblock in the first case: you. That means you

- wasted 1 energy from the central pool by having Skumpy roleblock you
- wasted 1 action of yours that was presumably roleblocked
- blocked the lift for a player that is now confirmed to be upper deck.

If you ask me, that is a horrible outcome, and it wouldn't have taken a lot of thought to foresee this.

Well put.

[EFHW]

Things are really bogging down here.  I'm not sure that order matters a lot here. How about people with something to say figure out the best way to say it, like usual?

[Awaclus]

Okay, I mean after a bit of thinking it turns out that Awaclus' play is just plain stupid as either alignment. So I guess that points to town!anti-town!Awaclus.

I shouldn't have confirmed Skumpy's roleblock claim?

No, your night actions were stupid. You knew Skumpy would play according to plan, and you blocked the proper execution, causing his lift to fail. So that mean he uses Roleblock. On whom does he use it? Of course, on the only player that would cause him using Roleblock in the first case: you. That means you

- wasted 1 energy from the central pool by having Skumpy roleblock you
- wasted 1 action of yours that was presumably roleblocked
- blocked the lift for a player that is now confirmed to be upper deck.

If you ask me, that is a horrible outcome, and it wouldn't have taken a lot of thought to foresee this.

Did we even agree on a plan? For the record I never read most of Skumpy's setup talk posts because they were too long.

[faust]

You are quite someone to lecture others about anti-town behaviour...

[Awaclus]

Posting TL;DR stuff is anti-town.

[Haddock]

This is awful behaviour from Awaclus.

That said, I don't understand.  How do we know it was Awa who interfered with Skumpy?


Also, how about we claim which (left/right) direction we all moved in, as a starting point?  I'd like that information before I claim what I did.
I'll start:  I went blue-wards.

[Awaclus]

It was me because Skumpy was second in the order.

[gkrieg13]

I went redwards

[LaLight]

I went bluewards

[LaLight]

Didn’t reread the start of the day yet, tomorrow will do

[faust]

Also, how about we claim which (left/right) direction we all moved in, as a starting point?  I'd like that information before I claim what I did.
I'll start:  I went blue-wards.

I don't think this is a good idea and I won't participate.

[faust]

Here is a rough order in which we should claim things:

- RB
- Commute
- Doctor
- Tracker
- Cop
- Weak Visitor

Then there's Status Printout, which should go in between Tracker and Cop probably, and finally the deck/zone monitoring stuff, which can go last. Well, deck monitoring is arguably scummier and should go first, but it is super unlikely that someone managed to do that anyway.

[faust]

if we claim blue/red movement, we're giving scum more data to figure out who left the upper deck. of course if people used actions, we need to communicate this anyway, but in other cases I don't see any benefit.

[Haddock]

if we claim blue/red movement, we're giving scum more data to figure out who left the upper deck. of course if people used actions, we need to communicate this anyway, but in other cases I don't see any benefit.

I see a fairly decent benefit to it in that it forces scum fakeclaims to start boxing themselves in before they have too much other information.
Also how does left-right information help with up-down information? There are still way too many possibilities for them to get anything out of it.

But whatever.


Yeah awa's behaviour is particularly terrible the more I think about it.

[faust]

Posting TL;DR stuff is anti-town.

If this exceeds your reading capabilities:

I endorse this

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-C?

Whoever does too, stick to it. That's the best we can get at this point, unfortunately.

then please sub out, mafia clearly isn't the right game for you.

[theorel]

Here is a rough order in which we should claim things:

- RB
- Commute
- Doctor
- Tracker
- Cop
- Weak Visitor

Then there's Status Printout, which should go in between Tracker and Cop probably, and finally the deck/zone monitoring stuff, which can go last. Well, deck monitoring is arguably scummier and should go first, but it is super unlikely that someone managed to do that anyway.

Don't you think cop-switches should be claimed somewhere early in the order?
Of course, no one intended to do a cop-switch.  But if anyone did something dumb and got blocked from moving to lower-Blue, then we want to know who they cop-switched early.  Not interested in late-claim cop switches.

[theorel]

Here is a rough order in which we should claim things:

- RB
- Commute
- Doctor
- Tracker
- Cop
- Weak Visitor

Then there's Status Printout, which should go in between Tracker and Cop probably, and finally the deck/zone monitoring stuff, which can go last. Well, deck monitoring is arguably scummier and should go first, but it is super unlikely that someone managed to do that anyway.

Don't you think cop-switches should be claimed somewhere early in the order?
Of course, no one intended to do a cop-switch.  But if anyone did something dumb and got blocked from moving to lower-Blue, then we want to know who they cop-switched early.  Not interested in late-claim cop switches.

*I mean no one will claim to intentionally have cop-switched*

[Awaclus]

Posting TL;DR stuff is anti-town.

If this exceeds your reading capabilities:

I endorse this

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-C?

Whoever does too, stick to it. That's the best we can get at this point, unfortunately.

then please sub out, mafia clearly isn't the right game for you.

However, I didn't have any red cards so that was impossible.

[theorel]

Posting TL;DR stuff is anti-town.

If this exceeds your reading capabilities:

I endorse this

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-C?

Whoever does too, stick to it. That's the best we can get at this point, unfortunately.

then please sub out, mafia clearly isn't the right game for you.

However, I didn't have any red cards so that was impossible.

But it takes exactly how much thought to realize that Skumpy was going to try to use the Lift, and you were blocking him?

[Awaclus]

Posting TL;DR stuff is anti-town.

If this exceeds your reading capabilities:

I endorse this

1: Red-Lift-B
2: Lift-B-A
3: Blue-Lift-C?

Whoever does too, stick to it. That's the best we can get at this point, unfortunately.

then please sub out, mafia clearly isn't the right game for you.

However, I didn't have any red cards so that was impossible.

But it takes exactly how much thought to realize that Skumpy was going to try to use the Lift, and you were blocking him?

I didn't particularly care about that.

[Skumpy]

So here's the question: If you're scum and Awaclus is on your team, what do you do? Even with the 8% chance he's being truthful about not having red cards, do you try and arrange it so that he does something protown, or do you decide to let him deliberately sabotage, knowing that it's Awaclus after all and so expecting a response like:

Okay, I mean after a bit of thinking it turns out that Awaclus' play is just plain stupid as either alignment. So I guess that points to town!anti-town!Awaclus.

@faust's list, I would take out

- wasted 1 action of yours that was presumably roleblocked

I don't think lower deck actions can be roleblocked, which I targeted Awaclus - I don't believe in trying to find the nightkill, I think it's going to do more harm than good when I take a shot in the dark with 12 other people. I'd rather roleblock someone who I know I won't trip up because there's nothing to trip up.


As for claiming, I don't know what the best order is. It's certainly a possibility that scum shut down Blue twice, which makes me wary that that job fell to someone in the back of the order who will claim "I tried to cop, and it failed!" once they see someone ahead of them claim cop. Still, they probably already have some information about what's safe to claim and what's not, so I don't really know.

Also, since my location on the ship is pretty much public knowledge at this point, I guess I can volunteer to wiggle the mouse tonight if I'm not lynched.

And by the way:

I went redwards

...why?

[silverspawn]

let's lynch awaclus.

[Awaclus]

let's lynch awaclus.

Let's not lynch Awaclus.

[gkrieg13]

And by the way:

I went redwards

...why?

I didn't have any blue cards, and it seemed like the best way to go to clog things up.

[EFHW]

And by the way:

I went redwards

...why?

I didn't have any blue cards, and it seemed like the best way to go to clog things up.

TO clog things up?

[iguanaiguana]

Hello all, I lost access to internet for a couple of days. Still here.

I don't see why we should assume that scum are in the top half. What if they didn't pick that option?

Also, I don't see why Fast is the towniest player alive and don't want to let him lead us all off a cliff.

@silver,  what is the scum motivation for Awaclus' play?

[gkrieg13]

And by the way:

I went redwards

...why?

I didn't have any blue cards, and it seemed like the best way to go to clog things up.

TO clog things up?

To not clog things up.

[faust]

let's lynch awaclus.

No, let's lynch you.

[faust]

I don't see why we should assume that scum are in the top half. What if they didn't pick that option?

Scum is more likely to be in the top half because there is a nonzero chance that they did pick that option, and thus all else aside the top half is a better place to look for scum.

Also, I don't see why Fast is the towniest player alive and don't want to let him lead us all off a cliff.

Well, look at reads D1, you will be hard-pressed to find a player more townread than me. Since then it's also become clear that I opposed a stupid mislynch.

[faust]

Also Weak Visit: EFHW

[faust]

I solved it. The scum team is silver, EFHW, iguana, RR.

[Skumpy]

I solved it. The scum team is silver, EFHW, iguana, RR.

I assume you're suspicious of EFHW because if scum doesn't kill mcmc, then mcmc might weak visit and we know more. So why wouldn't scum just jam upper blue to stop WV and doctor? After all, there is 2 energy in blue - exactly the same amount the night started with.

[faust]

I solved it. The scum team is silver, EFHW, iguana, RR.

I assume you're suspicious of EFHW because if scum doesn't kill mcmc, then mcmc might weak visit and we know more. So why wouldn't scum just jam upper blue to stop WV and doctor? After all, there is 2 energy in blue - exactly the same amount the night started with.

They would have to do that twice to be certain, right? Once per turn, and first turn doesn't count because it's movement.

But it's a good observation and totally possible. it would narrow scum's movements down to
- nightkill
- move to red
- 2x C in upper red
- potentially second move to red unless some scum has a good combination of cards.

That's 4-5 out of 12 scum actions.

[faust]

New claiming plan as we need to get a move on: Everyone claims their successful mafia game actions in their next post.

I did not perform a successful mafia game action last night.

[faust]

Here successful = you managed to get the shot, it doesn't matter if you were roleblocked.

[silverspawn]

I didn't, either. :|

[Skumpy]

I solved it. The scum team is silver, EFHW, iguana, RR.

I assume you're suspicious of EFHW because if scum doesn't kill mcmc, then mcmc might weak visit and we know more. So why wouldn't scum just jam upper blue to stop WV and doctor? After all, there is 2 energy in blue - exactly the same amount the night started with.

They would have to do that twice to be certain, right? Once per turn, and first turn doesn't count because it's movement.

But it's a good observation and totally possible. it would narrow scum's movements down to
- nightkill
- move to red
- 2x C in upper red
- potentially second move to red unless some scum has a good combination of cards.

That's 4-5 out of 12 scum actions.

Which is really not that many. Maybe one scum moved to Blue and used a Cop Flip. Maybe 2 tried to snag a mafia game action and move down the lift, since that's exactly what town would want to do. As nice as it sounds to try and find the plotholes in the stories (it's what I want to do), it's easy for scum to hide behind something at this point and time. There's just too many players left.

Also, though I would guess it's what happened, I'm not totally sure scum had to block Blue twice. Once may have been enough.

New claiming plan as we need to get a move on: Everyone claims their successful mafia game actions in their next post.

I did not perform a successful mafia game action last night.

Keep in mind the weekends are slow. On the one hand, it's going to take too long with the old plan, but I'm not in love with the idea of someone saying they copped and someone behind them saying that their cop didn't go through. The scum actions probably came from people later in the order since we're not expecting that their actions would work in the first place, so I'd like to know what they tried to do first.

[faust]

Claiming failed actions as well makes it super easy for scum to figure out who is where.

[Skumpy]

Claiming failed actions as well makes it super easy for scum to figure out who is where.

Scum already has one guaranteed safe kill with me. I don't think playing to avoid NK's is going to do much.

Let's say your silverspawn/EFHW/iguana/RR theory is correct (I'll go on the record to say I actually don't think this is terribly far from being right): given the night action order, what would you have everybody do?

[faust]

Claiming failed actions as well makes it super easy for scum to figure out who is where.

Scum already has one guaranteed safe kill with me. I don't think playing to avoid NK's is going to do much.

Let's say your silverspawn/EFHW/iguana/RR theory is correct (I'll go on the record to say I actually don't think this is terribly far from being right): given the night action order, what would you have everybody do?

I'm not sure what your question is... are you asking what advice I would have given the scum team above for N1?

[faust]

Also, there's like Doctor and Commuter and stuff, so killing you is far from safe.

[Skumpy]

Claiming failed actions as well makes it super easy for scum to figure out who is where.

Scum already has one guaranteed safe kill with me. I don't think playing to avoid NK's is going to do much.

Let's say your silverspawn/EFHW/iguana/RR theory is correct (I'll go on the record to say I actually don't think this is terribly far from being right): given the night action order, what would you have everybody do?

I'm not sure what your question is... are you asking what advice I would have given the scum team above for N1?

Sort of. More specifically: you agreed that scum sent somebody Red to block upper blue. Obviously, someone used a night kill. Maybe the same person or a third wanted to get a secret cop switch. Given the order of those 4, who does what of that stuff?

Also, there's like Doctor and Commuter and stuff, so killing you is far from safe.

Fair point. I still don't want to bank on scum messing up the night kill. A correct lynch today and a night kill is worth more than a mislynch today and no kill tonight.

[faust]

True, but a mislynch and kill is clearly the worst... and I think more claiming helps scum more to find the best kill than it helps us to find the correct lynch.

[faust]

Sort of. More specifically: you agreed that scum sent somebody Red to block upper blue. Obviously, someone used a night kill. Maybe the same person or a third wanted to get a secret cop switch. Given the order of those 4, who does what of that stuff?

Well this is sort of wild speculation, but sure if it amuses you.

A scum team like that has silver in 5, which is the ideal position - not bound to any plan, but you have a rough idea of what all the players ahead of you are going to do. silver would definitely try to reach the lower deck. Central lift is blocked phase 1 and possibly phase 2 (due to theorel). Red and blue lifts are blocked phase 2. So ideally you go red/blue -> action -> lift. It's very unlikely for town!silver to be blocked out of using any actions, so it would be scummy to claim that, so he probably tries the most "pro-town" thing and uses red Cop.

EFHW would have more leeway. Assuming she's scum, two people put her as WV target, the pressure to block that is on. But you can leave that to RR/iguana, who may safely claim a failed action due to their low position. An alternative is for her to use WV herself, since both potential targeters after after her in resolution. SO that looks like a decent thing to do. Downside she'd have to clear someone, but that's not awful.

For RR/iguana, you could have one do red -> nightkill -> block blue A/B and the other going for the Cop switch. Or not. The beautiful thing about Cop switch is you don't actually have to use it, its mere presence is enough, so you can play a WIFOM game there. Another option is to try and get lucky with the lifts.

[LaLight]

I have no clear idea what happened in the night and how to approach it. But I definitely think that upper half U CJ wagon is the place to look for

[LaLight]

I definitely can say my night was good

[LaLight]

3: theorel
4: gkrieg
5: silverspawn
6: Haddock
7: EFHW

These guys

[LaLight]

I think I want to vote: silver

I still am quite sure there was scum among theory talkers D1 and Silver gets 3/3 scum points here from me

[faust]

upper half U CJ wagon

I think you mean cap (intersection), not cup (union).

[silverspawn]

We should claim red/blue in time. faust, pls make this happen.

[faust]

We should claim red/blue in time. faust, pls make this happen.

No.

[faust]

We should claim red/blue in time. faust, pls make this happen.

No.

But you know, you can claim, noone's stopping you.

[silverspawn]

vote: faust

[LaLight]

upper half U CJ wagon

I think you mean cap (intersection), not cup (union).

Yes

[silverspawn]

Ok. Look.

I know with 100% certainty, mod-confirmed, that Blue A&B was disabled. I went blue to visit faust, but but failed. I planed this before faust made us claim WV targets, see here

maybe we should stop the theory talk, otherwise an angry faust might pay you a visit. Get it? Ok it's a bad pun...

Observe that a) this already proves that the narrative faust just made up is false

A scum team like that has silver in 5, which is the ideal position - not bound to any plan, but you have a rough idea of what all the players ahead of you are going to do. silver would definitely try to reach the lower deck. Central lift is blocked phase 1 and possibly phase 2 (due to theorel). Red and blue lifts are blocked phase 2. So ideally you go red/blue -> action -> lift. It's very unlikely for town!silver to be blocked out of using any actions, so it would be scummy to claim that, so he probably tries the most "pro-town" thing and uses red Cop.

And b) it gives scum a lot of incentive to block blue A&B since faust was expected to be visited.

And faust's attack on me is so ridiculous that I have a hard time seeing it come from town. The idea that I am not capable of forgetting such a setup detail is RIDICULOUS. You've all known me for years. I mess up and forget details ALL THE TIME, and if one person has experienced that first hand, it's faust.

Also what evidence do we actually have that he's town? Like, none?

[silverspawn]

Not wanting us to claim colors is similarly asinine. The information that's relevant for scum is whether we're upper or lower deck, not whether we went red or blue. This would have been much better if we had claimed colors in some order and then I tell you that scum visited upper red and used C there, but faust's refusal to coordinate that makes this impossible.

[silverspawn]

Since you're leaving all the talking to me, let's just note how large the intersection of people on the Jelly wagon and people in the top half of the player order is. That is a superb place to start looking for scums.

why does player order matter...?

this is a TOWN SLIP. IT IS A TOWN SLIP. NOT A SCUM SLIP. I AM TOWN.

[silverspawn]

TOWN not SCUM get the difference?

[silverspawn]

and I have faked townslips as town before multiple times. faust had me as his top town read yesterday, and now a TOWN SLIP made him put me at the other end of the list? Come on.

[silverspawn]

Even if you thought it was fabricated which you shouldn't it would be about information neutral.

[silverspawn]

I still am quite sure there was scum among theory talkers D1

And let's also talk about how idiotic this point is. Do you believe scum went into N0 strategizing things like "oh, we have to make sure to have at least one of us talk about setup a lot, because that will get us town cred." and later "oh no LaLight found us out"

Faust and me talked a lot about setup because we always do if the setup is logically interesting. Saying there is scum among the setup talkers has as much merit as saying there is scum among the first 3 fibonacci numbers in the signup order. It means nothing. It's only trivially likely based on probability.

[silverspawn]

As I see it, there are  about zero events that are less likely to have occurred with faust being mafia and several that are more likely to have occurred, such as

1) faust arguing for wiggling the mouse
2) faust pursuing this case on me right now
3) faust not wanting us to claim colors
4) faust not dying N1

[silverspawn]

5) blue A&B being disabled

[faust]

and I have faked townslips as town before multiple times. faust had me as his top town read yesterday, and now a TOWN SLIP made him put me at the other end of the list? Come on.

I had you as my top townread early D1, certainly not by the end of D1.

[faust]

As I see it, there are  about zero events that are less likely to have occurred with faust being mafia and several that are more likely to have occurred, such as

1) faust arguing for wiggling the mouse
2) faust pursuing this case on me right now
3) faust not wanting us to claim colors
4) faust not dying N1

It's funny how you always throw around dirt and try to see what sticks, but never actually back things up with a vote.

[faust]

4) faust not dying N1

Oh, oh, you not dying N1 is also more likely if you are mafia! Fun fact: Not dying N1 makes everyone more likely to be scum!

[Skumpy]

Sort of. More specifically: you agreed that scum sent somebody Red to block upper blue. Obviously, someone used a night kill. Maybe the same person or a third wanted to get a secret cop switch. Given the order of those 4, who does what of that stuff?

For RR/iguana, you could have one do red -> nightkill -> block blue A/B and the other going for the Cop switch. Or not. The beautiful thing about Cop switch is you don't actually have to use it, its mere presence is enough, so you can play a WIFOM game there. Another option is to try and get lucky with the lifts.

This is the point I'm trying to make. It's the people at the end who are going to do the scummy stuff because of course their lift and/or action failed - after all, everybody was ahead of them! So hold them accountable, and either make them either prove that they know some of what transpired ahead of them or make them take a guess. As for the WIFOM nature of the cop switch, maybe later in the game. But for D2, if a cop reports a scum, I'm going to assume that either the cop is lying scum or that town actually found a scum. If I'm wrong 2/13 times when the cop switch actually was effective, then I lose 2/13 games. So be it.

Ok. Look.

I know with 100% certainty, mod-confirmed, that Blue A&B was disabled. I went blue to visit faust, but but failed. I planed this before faust made us claim WV targets, see here

maybe we should stop the theory talk, otherwise an angry faust might pay you a visit. Get it? Ok it's a bad pun...

Observe that a) this already proves that the narrative faust just made up is false

A scum team like that has silver in 5, which is the ideal position - not bound to any plan, but you have a rough idea of what all the players ahead of you are going to do. silver would definitely try to reach the lower deck. Central lift is blocked phase 1 and possibly phase 2 (due to theorel). Red and blue lifts are blocked phase 2. So ideally you go red/blue -> action -> lift. It's very unlikely for town!silver to be blocked out of using any actions, so it would be scummy to claim that, so he probably tries the most "pro-town" thing and uses red Cop.

And b) it gives scum a lot of incentive to block blue A&B since faust was expected to be visited.

And faust's attack on me is so ridiculous that I have a hard time seeing it come from town. The idea that I am not capable of forgetting such a setup detail is RIDICULOUS. You've all known me for years. I mess up and forget details ALL THE TIME, and if one person has experienced that first hand, it's faust.

Also what evidence do we actually have that he's town? Like, none?

First off, let me say: This is going to come off as me defending faust against you. It's not. I'd say faust is scum much sooner than I'd say you were. But there is stuff here I would disagree with

1) Capitalizing the whole deal with upper blue. That upper blue was disabled shouldn't be a shock. Again: if scum has 12 actions to burn, 3 can be easily spared on moving Red and 2 C actions. If nobody had threatened to WV a scum, then scum still doesn't want people making successful visits to allow townsfolk to guarantee people are safe.

2) The faust narrative against you. That was me telling to him to make a narrative. I said I could see most of his list being scum. 'Most', because I think it was a bad choice to include you in it. Please don't be ssscum.


Also, I've known you for like a spaceday and a half. Just sayin'

I don't know what's most important to claim now - I might if I had some sort of secret I want to hang on to, but I don't because everybody knows what I did. I don't see a big problem with Red/Blue/Lift claims. I do think Trackers should keep their cards as close to the vest for as long as possible.

I still am quite sure there was scum among theory talkers D1

And let's also talk about how idiotic this point is. Do you believe scum went into N0 strategizing things like "oh, we have to make sure to have at least one of us talk about setup a lot, because that will get us town cred." and later "oh no LaLight found us out"

Faust and me talked a lot about setup because we always do if the setup is logically interesting. Saying there is scum among the setup talkers has as much merit as saying there is scum among the first 3 fibonacci numbers in the signup order. It means nothing. It's only trivially likely based on probability.

I mean, you just voted faust, so...

Here's the thing: the reason why I actually agree with LaLight even though I am one of the incriminants is not that people who don't normally talk about setup are now talking about setup. It's that if none of the 4 scum were among the talkers, I find it strange that all 4 of them would be content to sit back and let 4+ town talk to their heart's content. At the very least, one of them has to at least fake being involved with setup discussion.

[LaLight]

4) faust not dying N1

Oh, oh, you not dying N1 is also more likely if you are mafia! Fun fact: Not dying N1 makes everyone more likely to be scum!

Well, here I can see silver's point. Not everyone is you

[faust]

4) faust not dying N1

Oh, oh, you not dying N1 is also more likely if you are mafia! Fun fact: Not dying N1 makes everyone more likely to be scum!

Well, here I can see silver's point. Not everyone is you

Yeah, but in a setup that includes Doctoring (ok, may have been disabled) and Commuting, how good an idea is it really to go for the usual nightkill? I'd actually say I'm less likely to be a N1 NK target here than a random townie.

[faust]

Also what evidence do we actually have that he's town? Like, none?

What evidence do we actually have that you are town?

[LaLight]

4) faust not dying N1

Oh, oh, you not dying N1 is also more likely if you are mafia! Fun fact: Not dying N1 makes everyone more likely to be scum!

Well, here I can see silver's point. Not everyone is you

Yeah, but in a setup that includes Doctoring (ok, may have been disabled) and Commuting, how good an idea is it really to go for the usual nightkill? I'd actually say I'm less likely to be a N1 NK target here than a random townie.

Well, here we step into the "levels and levels" environment

[theorel]

I have to admit that I really don't understand what we expect to get out of fully claiming all night-actions received.  Not that it isn't worth it, I just don't get it.
I took no night-actions.

I do feel like faust is overplaying his "I'm town" hand.  While I'm not sure it's scummy it does feel unearned, and makes me wary of what he wants us to do.  At this stage though, I feel like his request is relatively safe even if I don't understand the proposed benefits.

I don't think silver is necessarily scum though.  I think scum knowing the full red-white-blue split of town is relatively bad for town.  And I'm not convinced we actually are able to determine who is scum from it (just like the night-actions).

I think if someone did something scummy overnight it's awaclus, and I think just shrugging and moving on is exactly what scum would want to happen.  I'm feeling less benevolent towards too-scummy-to-be-scum since O abused the notion as scum.

I'm still a little under the weather, so I'm gonna stick a vote: awaclus here...not sure how often I'll be checking back in.

[Awaclus]

I have to admit that I really don't understand what we expect to get out of fully claiming all night-actions received.  Not that it isn't worth it, I just don't get it.
I took no night-actions.

I do feel like faust is overplaying his "I'm town" hand.  While I'm not sure it's scummy it does feel unearned, and makes me wary of what he wants us to do.  At this stage though, I feel like his request is relatively safe even if I don't understand the proposed benefits.

I don't think silver is necessarily scum though.  I think scum knowing the full red-white-blue split of town is relatively bad for town.  And I'm not convinced we actually are able to determine who is scum from it (just like the night-actions).

I think if someone did something scummy overnight it's awaclus, and I think just shrugging and moving on is exactly what scum would want to happen.  I'm feeling less benevolent towards too-scummy-to-be-scum since O abused the notion as scum.

I'm still a little under the weather, so I'm gonna stick a vote: awaclus here...not sure how often I'll be checking back in.

The problem with that is that I'm not too scummy to be scum, I'm too towny to be scum.

[faust]

The problem with that is that I'm not too scummy to be scum, I'm too towny to be scum.

You're mainly too awfully playing to be scum, even if I'd really like to have you out of the game.

How do you know you were roleblocked?

[Awaclus]

The problem with that is that I'm not too scummy to be scum, I'm too towny to be scum.

You're mainly too awfully playing to be scum, even if I'd really like to have you out of the game.

How do you know you were roleblocked?

Didn't say I know I was roleblocked. I just have the status printout so I know someone used the action.

[faust]

The problem with that is that I'm not too scummy to be scum, I'm too towny to be scum.

You're mainly too awfully playing to be scum, even if I'd really like to have you out of the game.

How do you know you were roleblocked?

Didn't say I know I was roleblocked. I just have the status printout so I know someone used the action.

...okay.

Can you also confirm silver's claim that noone used actions from upper blue A/B?

[faust]

Simple question for silver: Why did you not use Cop?

[iguanaiguana]

Didn't get a mafia game action.

[Awaclus]

Can you also confirm silver's claim that noone used actions from upper blue A/B?

Yes.

[EFHW]

As I see it, there are  about zero events that are less likely to have occurred with faust being mafia and several that are more likely to have occurred, such as

1) faust arguing for wiggling the mouse
2) faust pursuing this case on me right now
3) faust not wanting us to claim colors
4) faust not dying N1

It's funny how you always throw around dirt and try to see what sticks, but never actually back things up with a vote.

vote: faust

[faust]

Well okay. We can believe that. I saw some merit n Skumpy's proposal to have failed actions claimed, but now... all blue actions are safe to claim anyway.

So we just proceed to have successful actions claimed. The investigative ones may want to hang back a bit. RB/Commuter, there is no reason not to claim that.

[faust]

The 3 people who have not claimed anything about their night acitons are EFHW, e, RR.

Scummy.

[Roadrunner7671]

I was last in the thingy so I can't imagine I have too much to claim

[faust]

I was last in the thingy so I can't imagine I have too much to claim

I was just going to prod you!
So I take that to mean that you took no successful mafia game action.

[faust]

I think you should coordinate. I didn't roleblock.

Notably silver seemed to trust me before he launched full swing into OMGUS-mode.

[Roadrunner7671]

I was last in the thingy so I can't imagine I have too much to claim

I was just going to prod you!
So I take that to mean that you took no successful mafia game action.

You can take that however you want

[EFHW]

I agree with Skumpy that faust's towny claim is unearned and heavy handed. His scum team pronouncement consists of the two people he tunneled yesterday, silver (why is that?) and me because I was potentially going to be visited by 3 (not two) people. Of course, so was he. I don't expect him to suspect himself, but saying I was going to be visited isn't particularly persuasive. I'm looking back at his narrative, and it sounds like we are being suspected because our positions in the random ordering make a good story.

I don't know if I agree with silver that faust is scum, though. He could be, but I think he would be playing more carefully if he was.

[EFHW]

It seems to me we have a lot more unknown information than just me, e and RR. And there are often legit town reasons for not claiming.

[EFHW]

But since you asked, sort of, I can confirm that silver had no targets last night.

[faust]

It seems to me we have a lot more unknown information than just me, e and RR. And there are often legit town reasons for not claiming.

Well sure. And if someone comes out with an investigative result (as I suppose you just did), then that's a good reason for sure. But if not, then it just looks like intentional stalling.

For the record, I'm suspicious of you because of the way you handled the end of day yesterday. I thought I might be onto something with the weak visiting, but those actions being disabled probably in 2 phases means there's nothing there.

[EFHW]

3: theorel
4: gkrieg
5: silverspawn
6: Haddock
7: EFHW

These guys

I hope you aren't including me as getting scum points for being in the upper half, because Space confirmed that #7 was not considered upper half. I'm not there because I asked to be.

[EFHW]

It seems to me we have a lot more unknown information than just me, e and RR. And there are often legit town reasons for not claiming.

Well sure. And if someone comes out with an investigative result (as I suppose you just did), then that's a good reason for sure. But if not, then it just looks like intentional stalling.

For the record, I'm suspicious of you because of the way you handled the end of day yesterday. I thought I might be onto something with the weak visiting, but those actions being disabled probably in 2 phases means there's nothing there.

What did I do end of day that was suspicious?

[faust]

It seems to me we have a lot more unknown information than just me, e and RR. And there are often legit town reasons for not claiming.

Well sure. And if someone comes out with an investigative result (as I suppose you just did), then that's a good reason for sure. But if not, then it just looks like intentional stalling.

For the record, I'm suspicious of you because of the way you handled the end of day yesterday. I thought I might be onto something with the weak visiting, but those actions being disabled probably in 2 phases means there's nothing there.

What did I do end of day that was suspicious?

You were voting for CheesyJelly and were really worried about us failing to reach a majority even though he was at L-1. It seemed fake.

[EFHW]

It seems to me we have a lot more unknown information than just me, e and RR. And there are often legit town reasons for not claiming.

Well sure. And if someone comes out with an investigative result (as I suppose you just did), then that's a good reason for sure. But if not, then it just looks like intentional stalling.

For the record, I'm suspicious of you because of the way you handled the end of day yesterday. I thought I might be onto something with the weak visiting, but those actions being disabled probably in 2 phases means there's nothing there.

What did I do end of day that was suspicious?

You were voting for CheesyJelly and were really worried about us failing to reach a majority even though he was at L-1. It seemed fake.

Right. I'd been skimming and saw people talking about switching but missed that a hammer vote was expected.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 2.1

silverspawn (2): faust, LaLight
faust (2): Roadrunner7671, silverspawn
Awaclus (2): Skumpy, theorel
Not Voting (6): Haddock, gkrieg13, EFHW, iguanaiguana, Awaclus, 2.71828.....

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
D2 ends at noon forum time on Friday 9th February.

[silverspawn]

As I see it, there are  about zero events that are less likely to have occurred with faust being mafia and several that are more likely to have occurred, such as

1) faust arguing for wiggling the mouse
2) faust pursuing this case on me right now
3) faust not wanting us to claim colors
4) faust not dying N1

It's funny how you always throw around dirt and try to see what sticks, but never actually back things up with a vote.

Liar.

vote: faust

[silverspawn]

I mean, you just voted faust, so...

Reversed stupidity is not intelligence. If a psychopath says the sky is blue that doesn't make the sky green. If LaLight gives a nonsensical reason why faust is scum, that doesn't make him town. I didn't vote for faust because he talked about the setup.

[silverspawn]

Also what evidence do we actually have that he's town? Like, none?

What evidence do we actually have that you are town?

False equivalence. You are the one who came out declaring yourself an IC.

[silverspawn]

I think you should coordinate. I didn't roleblock.

Notably silver seemed to trust me before he launched full swing into OMGUS-mode.

That was before you started doing ridiculous things, and before I realized that I don't actually have a reason to think you're town. The way you just named yourself the towniest player made me not question it.

[silverspawn]

Simple question for silver: Why did you not use Cop?

Because I thought this was better. We established that upper blue is bad and we probably shouldn't go there. This is why I expected that my action would very likely to through (and why it being blocked is odd). I also expected most people to go red.

And I had a town read on you EoD1, and confirming town!you, in particular, is high value. I wanted that guarantee so that no-one has to be paranoid of scum!you doing exactly what you're doing right now.

[silverspawn]

Now can you explain why you didn't want people to claim colors?

[silverspawn]

and I have faked townslips as town before multiple times. faust had me as his top town read yesterday, and now a TOWN SLIP made him put me at the other end of the list? Come on.

I had you as my top townread early D1, certainly not by the end of D1.

Why not?

[Awaclus]

and I have faked townslips as town before multiple times. faust had me as his top town read yesterday, and now a TOWN SLIP made him put me at the other end of the list? Come on.

I had you as my top townread early D1, certainly not by the end of D1.

Why not?

Why should you be the top townread by the end of D1?

[faust]

Simple question for silver: Why did you not use Cop?

Because I thought this was better. We established that upper blue is bad and we probably shouldn't go there. This is why I expected that my action would very likely to through (and why it being blocked is odd). I also expected most people to go red.

And I had a town read on you EoD1, and confirming town!you, in particular, is high value. I wanted that guarantee so that no-one has to be paranoid of scum!you doing exactly what you're doing right now.

There would have been a good answer to my question, unfortunately, this is not it.

It should have been obvious to you that your action will go through no matter which action you take due to the plan.

[faust]

Now can you explain why you didn't want people to claim colors?

Because I do not want scum to know who of us are on the lower deck. And because i don't see how it would benefit town.

[faust]

Liar.

Can we just turn it down a notch, please?

[faust]

Also what evidence do we actually have that he's town? Like, none?

What evidence do we actually have that you are town?

False equivalence. You are the one who came out declaring yourself an IC.

Well okay.

I'm town because I did townie things. If you look at the Jelly wagon, I was the first to point out that he was scummy, then scum kind of felt it's safe to sheep, and then I got worried about that wagon, because these very dynamics, and the fact that people seemed reluctant to vote elsewhere, suggested a scum-driven thing.

I have pushed strategies that I think are optimal. Which let's be honest I'd probably do as either alignment. But you seem to be painting this as scummy because I disagree with you. theorel actually has much of the same views. Is he my scumpartner then? What exactly does scum get out of this?

I have deliberately spread some WIFOM about me being nightkillled (stuff like "I'll probably die N1") so that scum won't know if that's a good idea. little reason for that as scum.

I am town because I do townie things. I have tried hard to build an alternative to Jelly. I have been actively pushing the game forward. You can see a natural progression in my reads on people that is hard to fabricate.

And last but not least, I townslipped D1. Rememberß so according to you I should be solidly town now.

[faust]

But since you asked, sort of, I can confirm that silver had no targets last night.

Still I guess this is enough for me to go back to Vote: RR

Reluctantly.

[silverspawn]

And last but not least, I townslipped D1. Rememberß so according to you I should be solidly town now.

You sorta-slipped. The information you didn't know was only somewhat more likely to be known by scum than by town. But yes, I'm aware of that.

I'm not super duper confident scum on you, but probably more than on anyone else, I think.

[faust]

We need to hear from e.

Request prod on e

[SpaceAnemone]

We need to hear from e.

Request prod on e

Sent.

[faust]

Why is nothing happening? Noone has announced VLA...

Request prods on LaLight, Skumpy, Haddock, gkrieg, iguana

[gkrieg13]

Why is nothing happening? Noone has announced VLA...

Request prods on LaLight, Skumpy, Haddock, gkrieg, iguana

Sorry, just much too busy, but have just enough time to kind of keep up with the game, and a sub seems unlikely.

[LaLight]

SOrry be here later

[2.71828.....]

We should hear from e. At work right now, I will post more extensively later today when you all are asleep.

[Skumpy]

faust:

I flat out have no idea why you're so paranoid about revealing where we are on the ship. You're apparently planning to win this game based on the hope that scum will botch a couple nights. Great. Now how do we lynch them? Even if someone is known to be on the upper deck, then scum probably wouldn't target someone known to be on the lower deck - a perfect opportunity for them to go upper and get some information. A scum NK was used last night. A blueblock was almost certainly used last night. Depending on pending info from print-outs, maybe copswitches were too. So where are the phantom actions? When we don't claim this stuff, there's no way of figuring it out. Unfortunately, my actions are probably the most publicly known of anyone at the moment, so I have less info than everyone. I want to know what actions people went for and what lifts failed - prove that you have some information about what transpired that you wouldn't know had you tried to a scum thing. I started a list of what everyone's claimed so far - not going to post it because a) It's mostly blank and b) The visual information might help scum at this point in time.

We could start with:

I was last in the thingy so I can't imagine I have too much to claim

I was just going to prod you!
So I take that to mean that you took no successful mafia game action.

You can take that however you want

faust, if you're so certain RR is scum, then what's the harm in knowing what he went for. Cop? A blocked lift? Everyone has things they could claim. Three things, to be exact.

[silverspawn]

I actually agree with not claiming your position on the ship, I just don't see what's the problem with claiming colors. The information to hide is up vs down not blue vs red vs white.

[Roadrunner7671]

Was it ever explained why faust is so towny?

[faust]

Now how do we lynch them?

Like this: Vote: RR

faust, if you're so certain RR is scum, then what's the harm in knowing what he went for. Cop? A blocked lift? Everyone has things they could claim. Three things, to be exact.

People can claim whatever suits them. It's just that I won't claim colors.

[faust]

I actually agree with not claiming your position on the ship, I just don't see what's the problem with claiming colors. The information to hide is up vs down not blue vs red vs white.

There is a correlation between the two.

[faust]

Was it ever explained why faust is so towny?

Yes.

[LaLight]

i believe faust's townieness, he looks very confident to be scum from what i remember about faust. But i don't really agree with his choice, when scummier silver is here

[SpaceAnemone]

Why is nothing happening? Noone has announced VLA...

Request prods on LaLight, Skumpy, Haddock, gkrieg, iguana

I've sent prods to Haddock and iguana. The other three have rematerialised on the ship without my intervention in the intervening period :-)

[Haddock]

Ok. Look.

I know with 100% certainty, mod-confirmed, that Blue A&B was disabled. I went blue to visit faust, but but failed. I planed this before faust made us claim WV targets, see here

Dammit.
Obviously this is the information I was trying not to reveal before we had red/blue info, in the hope of narrowing stuff down about towards people who went redwards.

Not wanting us to claim colors is similarly asinine.

100% agree.

I have to admit that I really don't understand what we expect to get out of fully claiming all night-actions received.  Not that it isn't worth it, I just don't get it.
I took no night-actions.

I do feel like faust is overplaying his "I'm town" hand.  While I'm not sure it's scummy it does feel unearned, and makes me wary of what he wants us to do.  At this stage though, I feel like his request is relatively safe even if I don't understand the proposed benefits.

I don't think silver is necessarily scum though.  I think scum knowing the full red-white-blue split of town is relatively bad for town.  And I'm not convinced we actually are able to determine who is scum from it (just like the night-actions).

I think if someone did something scummy overnight it's awaclus, and I think just shrugging and moving on is exactly what scum would want to happen.  I'm feeling less benevolent towards too-scummy-to-be-scum since O abused the notion as scum.

I'm still a little under the weather, so I'm gonna stick a vote: awaclus here...not sure how often I'll be checking back in.

The problem with that is that I'm not too scummy to be scum, I'm too towny to be scum.

Gad.  You're unbearable.

Now can you explain why you didn't want people to claim colors?

Because I do not want scum to know who of us are on the lower deck. And because i don't see how it would benefit town.

This makes no sense.  Since when did faust go around saying things that make no sense?

I actually agree with not claiming your position on the ship, I just don't see what's the problem with claiming colors. The information to hide is up vs down not blue vs red vs white.

There is a correlation between the two.

Not enough of one for it to be at all helpful.

[Haddock]

Even though faust is making WAY less sense than silver, silver seems scummier.
I'm confused.

[Roadrunner7671]

Was it ever explained why faust is so towny?

Yes.

See I was looking for something more along the lines of 'so and so weak visited Faust' and not 'I'm town because I've down towny things.'

[Roadrunner7671]

Now how do we lynch them?

Like this: Vote: RR

faust, if you're so certain RR is scum, then what's the harm in knowing what he went for. Cop? A blocked lift? Everyone has things they could claim. Three things, to be exact.

People can claim whatever suits them. It's just that I won't claim colors.

Please give it up please

[silverspawn]

Even though faust is making WAY less sense than silver, silver seems scummier.
I'm confused.

What about me is scummy??!?

[Awaclus]

Even though faust is making WAY less sense than silver, silver seems scummier.
I'm confused.

What about me is scummy??!?

What about you isn't scummy??!?

[Skumpy]

So looking back through the last 40 or so posts: everyone's done talking about the night. Fantastic. We have learned absolutely nothing from what's been said so far.

What's the worst that can happen if we share what we did? We risk night kills? What's the best? That we might actually figure something out. If you're on f.ds, chances are you made your way here through some connection to a board game that requires a great deal of thinking based on objective information. Guess what - we have objective information! 8 people here are truth tellers, 4 are liars. Pick them out.
 
@RR: Do you have an issue with claiming what you did last night?

[Roadrunner7671]

@RR: Do you have an issue with claiming what you did last night?

My only issue is that people are gonna tell me how sub optimal I am

[Haddock]

Even though faust is making WAY less sense than silver, silver seems scummier.
I'm confused.

What about me is scummy??!?

I don't know. You just. Don't seem yourself.
Which, to be fair, I can understand.  Seems Faust is super keen to fight you this game. I dunno.

So looking back through the last 40 or so posts: everyone's done talking about the night. Fantastic. We have learned absolutely nothing from what's been said so far.

What's the worst that can happen if we share what we did? We risk night kills? What's the best? That we might actually figure something out. If you're on f.ds, chances are you made your way here through some connection to a board game that requires a great deal of thinking based on objective information. Guess what - we have objective information! 8 people here are truth tellers, 4 are liars. Pick them out.
 
@RR: Do you have an issue with claiming what you did last night?

This is actually a really good point. Sure I'll go first.
I went bluewards and tried to wv RR

[iguanaiguana]

i believe faust's townieness, he looks very confident to be scum from what i remember about faust. But i don't really agree with his choice, when scummier silver is here

So you don't know scum Faust at all.

Vote: Faust

[faust]

@RR: Do you have an issue with claiming what you did last night?

My only issue is that people are gonna tell me how sub optimal I am

Well I can tell you that right now without even knowing your night actions.

[faust]

I do agree that by this point in time, we should probably try to figure out what happened to the red actions, as noone seems to have used them...

[Skumpy]

I do agree that by this point in time, we should probably try to figure out what happened to the red actions, as noone seems to have used them...

There's more pressing stuff first. Such as:

Awaclus: How many Cop flips were used last night? And what was your entire action sequence?
Theorel: Which round was the mouse wiggled?
ss/Haddock: Which round was your WV attempted?

Also, between e, Iguana, and RR, there are a lot of actions there that I would like to know the results of. LaLight too, but at least he's breadcrumbed some of what happened.

Here's a rough version of where we are now with claiming, I'm stowing away a couple insights for now.
1. Awaclus went down. I can confirm this. Also got a printout.
2. Skumpy stayed put. I've pretty much proven this.
3. Theorel likely wiggled, or else a scum partner did. Rest is unknown.
4. gkrieg went red
5. ss went blue, claims that the WV was jammed
6. Haddock went blue, agrees with nonWV.
7. EFHW likely used central action, though the ss-claim was made after ss revealed his night action. Rest is unknown.
8. faust claims he got nothing
9. mcmc is died
10. e is ??
11. iguana claims he got nothing
12. LaLight went blue...and something good happened?
13. RR claims he got nothing.

[2.71828.....]

I find no benefit in claiming at this point, but I don't have a lot of ground to stand on i suppose. Chaos is towns friend, order let's scum thrive.

At least early on. We catch people for being scummy, not for doing silly actions.

I think faust and silverspawn and skumpy are townie. faust and silverspawn especially so. They have strong convictions that lead other people to question them/call them scummy, but they stick with it. So town in my book. Skumpy I just don't know as well, but feels townie

[2.71828.....]

I do agree that by this point in time, we should probably try to figure out what happened to the red actions, as noone seems to have used them...

I cam tell you I didn't use a red action if that is any comfort

[2.71828.....]

3. Theorel likely wiggled, or else a scum partner did. Rest is unknown.

Can you clarify what you mean by "a scum partner did"

Your scum partner or theorel's? Either way to know this you are scum

[2.71828.....]

Which is why I would like clarification

[2.71828.....]

Or, better yet, vote: skumpy

I read the end of D1 and I am just not comfortable with skumpy's "why hasn't scum hammered CJ yet" post and then his twilight "I bet CJ flips town" post.

[2.71828.....]

Paraphrases obviously, but the interpretation of posts is accurate. Skumpy is trying way too hard to cone across as townie

Also, mcmc and LaLight are town

[Skumpy]

3. Theorel likely wiggled, or else a scum partner did. Rest is unknown.

Can you clarify what you mean by "a scum partner did"

Your scum partner or theorel's? Either way to know this you are scum

2 possibilities:

1. Theorel is town. He said he would wiggle, he did.
2. Theorel is scum. Hopefully nobody else wiggles. Then if the mouse isn't wiggled, we know he lied. But an alternative is he takes advantage of a high position and snipes the cop shot or something, and leaves it to a scum later in turn order to wiggle. Not sure if it is something that actually is beneficial to scum. But it's a possibility.

Or, better yet, vote: skumpy

I read the end of D1 and I am just not comfortable with skumpy's "why hasn't scum hammered CJ yet" post and then his twilight "I bet CJ flips town" post.

I never wondered why scum hadn't hammered...

[2.71828.....]

So let's chit chat about the Cheesy Jelly.

I made that vote (which wasn't influenced by SS at all getting there first, keep in mind) based on the only tangible thing there was at the time - the incongruity between CJ voting faust then joining him on the Iguana wagon. I'd done my setup shpeal for as long as I could make it last with the three other people who were willing. That ended, time to make a non-RVS vote. I'm not persuasive or a good-decision maker when it comes to votes, so if other people are hopping on, that tells me it's more likely scum wants to join then people are actually swayed. Hence, the e vote. Which I'm still OK with. Because when you switch up the wagons last minute, scum doesn't get comfortable sitting on the same stuff for 50 hours. There's been

The other thing that concerns me is: if CJ is scum, then where are the other 3? Maybe another on me. One's probably bussing. And the fourth? In Haddock/faust? Another bus? I guess it's not crazy, but it's easier for me to believe scum's split pretty comfortably.

I mean, it's looking like CJ's getting lynched, especially with faust gone, but I have to throw out my thoughts before it happens. Is a no lynch bonkers crazy this game? How much info do we expect to get from night actions? Because if we're wrong, 8-4 is not a ratio I'm in love with.

[2.71828.....]

I guess I read that wrong a bit.

TL;DR posts are scummy.....

[2.71828.....]

Yeah, I'm not asking why town hasn't lynched CJ...that's perfectly reasonable.  I'm asking why (if CJ is scum) hasn't scum hammered him?  Do they think that they've offered to hammer and can miss deadline to get a no lynch?  I mean I just have trouble imagining that situation actually happening...but I guess it could if all 3 scum were staying off, and faust was being belligerent town.  I mean if scum actually makes us lynch scum (i.e. doesn't bus) we only get 2 votes able to be elsewhere.
I just feel like it's unlikely at this point, but then there seem to only be 3 of us active atm...so we're also missing at least 7 town players, that aren't bothering to show up (or post) at end of day.

It was theorel! Sorry, reading and mixed up the names

[Skumpy]

So let's chit chat about the Cheesy Jelly.

I made that vote (which wasn't influenced by SS at all getting there first, keep in mind) based on the only tangible thing there was at the time - the incongruity between CJ voting faust then joining him on the Iguana wagon. I'd done my setup shpeal for as long as I could make it last with the three other people who were willing. That ended, time to make a non-RVS vote. I'm not persuasive or a good-decision maker when it comes to votes, so if other people are hopping on, that tells me it's more likely scum wants to join then people are actually swayed. Hence, the e vote. Which I'm still OK with. Because when you switch up the wagons last minute, scum doesn't get comfortable sitting on the same stuff for 50 hours. There's been

The other thing that concerns me is: if CJ is scum, then where are the other 3? Maybe another on me. One's probably bussing. And the fourth? In Haddock/faust? Another bus? I guess it's not crazy, but it's easier for me to believe scum's split pretty comfortably.

I mean, it's looking like CJ's getting lynched, especially with faust gone, but I have to throw out my thoughts before it happens. Is a no lynch bonkers crazy this game? How much info do we expect to get from night actions? Because if we're wrong, 8-4 is not a ratio I'm in love with.

I don't understand your point. It bothered me that everybody on his wagon stayed put. My gut proved correct.

[2.71828.....]

I don't understand your point. It bothered me that everybody on his wagon stayed put. My gut proved correct.

Yeah, I definitely think scum got on the wagon early and just sat there comfortably..... which points to, say, me. Which is an unfortunate byproduct of being absent most of D1. And then following that up with a slow D2 start. I am caught up though and will try to stay that way

[2.71828.....]

Let's vote: gkrieg

For fun. I like lynching on wagon today.

[Skumpy]

Or, better yet, vote: skumpy

I read the end of D1 and I am just not comfortable with skumpy's "why hasn't scum hammered CJ yet" post and then his twilight "I bet CJ flips town" post.

I don't understand your point. It bothered me that everybody on his wagon stayed put. My gut proved correct.

Yeah, I definitely think scum got on the wagon early and just sat there comfortably..... which points to, say, me. Which is an unfortunate byproduct of being absent most of D1. And then following that up with a slow D2 start. I am caught up though and will try to stay that way

Let's vote: gkrieg

For fun. I like lynching on wagon today.

"You're so Skummy"
"No I'm not!"
"Oh. Well, never mind then"

[faust]

"You're so Skummy"
"No I'm not!"
"Oh. Well, never mind then"

It was theorel! Sorry, reading and mixed up the names

[2.71828.....]

Or, better yet, vote: skumpy

I read the end of D1 and I am just not comfortable with skumpy's "why hasn't scum hammered CJ yet" post and then his twilight "I bet CJ flips town" post.

I don't understand your point. It bothered me that everybody on his wagon stayed put. My gut proved correct.

Yeah, I definitely think scum got on the wagon early and just sat there comfortably..... which points to, say, me. Which is an unfortunate byproduct of being absent most of D1. And then following that up with a slow D2 start. I am caught up though and will try to stay that way

Let's vote: gkrieg

For fun. I like lynching on wagon today.

"You're so Skummy"
"No I'm not!"
"Oh. Well, never mind then"

It is amazing how reading what people actually write (instead of what you think they wrote) affects whether you see someone as scummy or not

[faust]

Let's vote: gkrieg

For fun. I like lynching on wagon today.

No RR?

I mean gkrieg is a sensilbe lynch as well.

[2.71828.....]

Let's vote: gkrieg

For fun. I like lynching on wagon today.

No RR?

I mean gkrieg is a sensilbe lynch as well.

Gkrieg was wagon and top half. RR was neither.  If we have silly standards to hold up that help guide our votes might as well abide by them

[Skumpy]

I think the upper half wagon standard is stupid. There, I said it.

Vote: iguana
RR is a close second. I think it's scummy to not even hint at something that took place during your night. Plus everything else. Also, don't really want to be giving Awaclus a total pass for his night.

Btw, since nobody has asked the question yet: why was mcmc killed? I have a few theories. I think there's more to it than just reputation as a bane to scum everywhere. Otherwise, I would've been killed.

[faust]

Let's vote: gkrieg

For fun. I like lynching on wagon today.

No RR?

I mean gkrieg is a sensilbe lynch as well.

Gkrieg was wagon and top half. RR was neither.  If we have silly standards to hold up that help guide our votes might as well abide by them

I suppose you're right.

vote: gkrieg

[silverspawn]

fine, vote: gkrieg

ss/Haddock: Which round was your WV attempted?

That has implications about the lift, so I won't answer it.

[LaLight]

Yeah, vote: gkrieg seems like a sensible idea

[LaLight]

L-2 I think

[LaLight]

I think the upper half wagon standard is stupid. There, I said it.

Why? This is really like the only thing that is stronger than reads in my opinion.

[Skumpy]

I think the upper half wagon standard is stupid. There, I said it.

Why? This is really like the only thing that is stronger than reads in my opinion.

Really? There were 39 submitted actions that contain vital information...I think that puzzle is a bit stronger than arbitrarily lynching from the top half.

Do you think scum actually expected that they would all just elevate and everybody would just forget they could do that? Furthermore, what does scum even gain from elevating? They get to use actions earlier in turn order...but if scum wants to use a C action or perform the night kill, then who cares where they are in turn order, they're gonna do it eventually. Sure, they could steal a key mafia-game action...but do all of them need to do that? I would be surprised if more than 1 scum intentionally went up on N1, there's just not much that needs doing that they couldn't just do later on.

I'm not going to comment too much on this new exciting gkrieg wagon. Not the worst. I'd give it a better shot at this point then I would have given to CJ yesterday. We'll see what happens. Also, pretty sure it's L-3.

[faust]

I would be surprised if more than 1 scum intentionally went up on N1

Even in this case a random player from the top half is significantly more likely to be scum than one from the bottom half.

All else aside, the chance that a random player is scum right now is 33%. Assume that one scum chose to go to the top half.

That means a top-half player has a 1/6 chance to be that player, and thus scum. If they are not that player, they have a 3/11 chance to be one of the other scums. So

P(x scum | x in top half) = 1/6 + 3/11 = 43.9 %

Whereas

P(x scum | x not in top half) = 3/11 = 27.2 %

That is a pretty big difference.

[faust]

I think that after some reevaluation the scumster list for the top half goes something like

gkrieg > theorel > silver > Haddock > Awaclus > Skumpy

[Awaclus]

Awaclus: How many Cop flips were used last night? And what was your entire action sequence?

None. I don't want to claim the entire sequence.

[silverspawn]

I would be surprised if more than 1 scum intentionally went up on N1

Even in this case a random player from the top half is significantly more likely to be scum than one from the bottom half.

All else aside, the chance that a random player is scum right now is 33%. Assume that one scum chose to go to the top half.

That means a top-half player has a 1/6 chance to be that player, and thus scum. If they are not that player, they have a 3/11 chance to be one of the other scums. So

P(x scum | x in top half) = 1/6 + 3/11 = 43.9 %

Whereas

P(x scum | x not in top half) = 3/11 = 27.2 %

That is a pretty big difference.

I doubt that's correct, but I get 39% and 25% which is close enough. In both cases the difference is larger than I had thought. I agree we definitely lynch someone from the top based on this.

[faust]

Yeah, I forgot a factor there, it should be

P(x scum | x in top half) = 1/6 + 5/6*3/11 = 39.4 %

But your P for the lower half seems a bit off... I am quite certain that my calcuations are correct now because they add back up to a 33.3% chance for a random player.

[faust]

I think it would be good to know this:

Awaclus, did you refill the central pool?

[Awaclus]

I think it would be good to know this:

Awaclus, did you refill the central pool?

Fine. Yes, I did.

[faust]

Thus it seems likely that noone used central energy action in the final phase.

I am ever more strongly wondering what on earth theorel did.

[faust]

In fact, Vote: theorel

[faust]

You may be able to appease me with a full disclosure of your night actions.

[LaLight]

Wiggling doesn’t take energy

[faust]

I know. He had 2 other actions.

[faust]

Wiggling doesn’t take energy

And what about you anyway? Quo usque tandem abutere patentia nostra?

[LaLight]

Quo usque tandem abutere patentia nostra?

"Where are you going to abuse our", that's what google says to me

[theorel]

You may be able to appease me with a full disclosure of your night actions.

Probably not, I went down and filled up central...uselessly apparently, because Awaclus makes bad decisions.

Although, I will say that I had much stronger reasoning for doing so than Awaclus.  Since I wasn't blocking Skumpy from doing the first fill...and I was going just after Awaclus' red pull and skumpy's printout in the proposed turn sequence.  Awaclus created a need for him to fill central by blocking Skumpy, and then decided to fill up the energy pool (apparently), which I don't get.

I'll also note that I mentioned on several occasions that I wasn't able to do much yesterday because my hand sucked, primarily my issue was that I had no A's.  Obviously, also why I was so cognizant that not everyone could do everything.  This is why I volunteered to wiggle the mouse, since all the really useful town actions are on A, and I assumed that town players would go do useful town things (like tracking and copping), if possible.

[LaLight]

It looks like my actions didn't do anything apparently, but I had a very poor choice of cards to play. I refilled the central pool

PPE: 1 (not only me apparently)

[faust]

It looks like my actions didn't do anything apparently, but I had a very poor choice of cards to play. I refilled the central pool

PPE: 1 (not only me apparently)

One of you is lying obviously... only one of you could have used the lift in phase 2. Unless there is like a lot of people that tried using the lift.

[faust]

Wait, LaLight, did you not claim to go bluewards...?

[faust]

uh Vote: LaLight

[faust]

I definitely can say my night was good

And was was that about then?

[LaLight]

Wait, LaLight, did you not claim to go bluewards...?

I went bluewards afterwards

[theorel]

It looks like my actions didn't do anything apparently, but I had a very poor choice of cards to play. I refilled the central pool

PPE: 1 (not only me apparently)

One of you is lying obviously... only one of you could have used the lift in phase 2. Unless there is like a lot of people that tried using the lift.

More than 1 person can use a lift in the same phase (every 4 people can use a lift).  I'm not sure why you say "unless a lot of people tried using the lift".  What does people trying to use the lift have to do with it?

There's the possibility Lalight went down, filled Central, and moved blue...but I'm not sure why that would result in the comment you quoted:

I definitely can say my night was good

I'm good with vote: Lalight

[faust]

Wait, LaLight, did you not claim to go bluewards...?

I went bluewards afterwards

Let me get this straight: your claim is:

Phase 1: lift
Phase 2: refill central
Phase 3: move to blue

That would require 2 more players that tried to use the central lift in phase 1. Come out and claim...

[faust]

It looks like my actions didn't do anything apparently, but I had a very poor choice of cards to play. I refilled the central pool

PPE: 1 (not only me apparently)

One of you is lying obviously... only one of you could have used the lift in phase 2. Unless there is like a lot of people that tried using the lift.

More than 1 person can use a lift in the same phase (every 4 people can use a lift).  I'm not sure why you say "unless a lot of people tried using the lift".  What does people trying to use the lift have to do with it?

Err... for 2 people to successfully use the same lift in the same phase, there need to be 3 more people who tried and failed to use that lift... is that not correct?

[theorel]

That would require 2 more players that tried to use the central lift in phase 1. Come out and claim...

You're super misunderstanding something.
After Awaclus used the central lift anyone from player 5 on can use the lift.  Then anyone at least 3 people further on.
I've been trying to point out this misunderstanding since day1 (with the whole you're overestimating how hard it is to use lifts).

[theorel]

If one person successfully uses a lift, the next three people in turn order will find their attempt at lift use fails

Not the next 3 that try, just the next three in turn order.

[LaLight]

I'm not sure why that would result in the comment you quoted:

I definitely can say my night was good

I'm good with vote: Lalight

Everything I was trying to do succeeded, thus the comment. Are you trying to derail gkrieg's wagon?

[LaLight]

I also thought I refilled the pool and now it has 5 energy in it so I did a good thing

[faust]

Ah. Uh. I guess that makes sense... I have been completely misreading this.

Well anyway LaLight's actions don't make the least bit of sense. He claims to have replenished the pool when only 3 turns away there was a player already scheduled to do just that.

[faust]

LaLight, can you claim your exact hand at the start of D1?

[LaLight]

LaLight, can you claim your exact hand at the start of D1?

Sure.

3 Lift-B, Lift-A, Blue-C, Blue-B

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 2.2

faust (2): Roadrunner7671, iguanaiguana
gkrieg13 (3): 2.71828....., silverspawn, LaLight
iguanaiguana (1): Skumpy
LaLight (2): faust, theorel
Not Voting (4): Haddock, gkrieg13, EFHW, Awaclus

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
D2 ends at noon forum time on Friday 9th February.

[faust]

What was the point of going bluewards?

[faust]

Unrelated, I just figured out another downside of color-claiming... it gives scum a pretty good idea of who should be Copswitched.

[LaLight]

What was the point of going bluewards?

I couldn't go redwards, I wanted to stay on lower deck, I have lifts to go to WV or Doctor anyone, I can refill Blue Pool, I had extra action after all, so why not?

[LaLight]

I can go up, doctor anyone and go back down if no one messes with me

[faust]

What was the point of going bluewards?

I couldn't go redwards, I wanted to stay on lower deck, I have lifts to go to WV or Doctor anyone, I can refill Blue Pool, I had extra action after all, so why not?

I mean a status printout would have been nice. Or you could have taken an action in upper central before going down. Basically there are many more useful options than to randomly walk oneself into a corner.

[faust]

I can go up, doctor anyone and go back down if no one messes with me

And scum can block all blue actions...

[faust]

But more importantly, can you let us know how the plan that was made D1, and discussed at length D1, factored into your decisions?

[LaLight]

But more importantly, can you let us know how the plan that was made D1, and discussed at length D1, factored into your decisions?

uh oh I realized I am second-to last in the turn order and decided to play a support role refilling the pools that turn and other turns, because I expect to be in the lower half again (i don't see why scum wouldn't go to the top-half). Other than that it's nice I can make scum spend turns disabling blue actions.

Also, I didn't do wiggling and print-out as I saw that those would be made by other people. sorry I just haven't yet understood the setup and how to make the best out of my actions. Refilling the pools looked pretty good.

[LaLight]

I may be stupid, but I am not scum here

[faust]

I may be stupid, but I am not scum here

Well yeah, I guess so.

Back to vote: gkrieg I think.

[theorel]

Okay, I'm gonna try to get back into things here...
So, if I'm understanding correctly, no town got any cop results.  But both red energy have been spent...meaning likely that the cop power was used by scum in order to keep it from town hands.  Scum also was in red canceling upper-blue actions.  So at least 2 scum are in upper red presumably at this moment.
-awaclus went down the lift, we know this because he blocked skumpy.  This was stupid and somewhat scummy.
-skumpy failed to go down the lift, he's not scumming it up in upper red.
-I know that I'm not there and that I wiggled the mouse, but I obviously come out scummy here simply because my actions are non-verifiable, and I would be in a good position to block cop-actions.  That said, I'm claiming to be in central, so anyone in lower-blue can verify that I'm not in red, and thus unable to be solely responsible for blocking cops.
-gkrieg went red, and is in a good position for blocking cops.  He claimed color early enough that he couldn't know if he had been tracked...this is our most likely scum based on night activity.
-silverspawn went blue, tried to use weak visitor, and claims he was blocked.  It would be difficult to manufacture this because blue has 2 energy, and I think Haddock tried to weak visit as well.  So, the only scenario where scum didn't block blue is where both silver and haddock are lying.
-Haddock, I just talked about.
-EFHW tracked...then maybe did other stuff
-faust we know didn't get any powers...but nothing else, I think
-mcmc is dead, whatever he tried to do probably failed anyways
-e we know he supposedly didn't get any powers, little else
-iguana same
-lalight went blue after filling central
-roadrunner claims nothing

okay, so we know very little about whether people have gone red or blue.  With, it appears, at least half of scum in red, it would be very useful to know where people are color-wise...which is of course the one thing faust doesn't want to share.  lalight could verify one person, and if anyone else is lower blue they could also verify.  I think it would be unsafe for scum to fake-claim there.  I'm not concerned about scum knowing who to use cop-flip on, when they already have a good idea of who not to use it on...but I'm not sure if it's super-relevant...because:
on red-side as possible cop/blue blockers we have:
gkrieg
e
iguana
and roadrunner.
so, yes...I'm going to agree with everyone else and say vote: gkrieg (L-2)

I think one of those others is almost certainly scum as well.  I don't think that faust is scum, probably.
I still think awaclus is probably scum, and just getting away with it because he's awaclus.

[2.71828.....]

Wow, I had no clue I would be creating such a popular wagon

[faust]

So, if I'm understanding correctly, no town got any cop results.  But both red energy have been spent...meaning likely that the cop power was used by scum in order to keep it from town hands.  Scum also was in red canceling upper-blue actions.  So at least 2 scum are in upper red presumably at this moment.

It's possible that mcmc used up one of the red shots before dying.

[faust]

-silverspawn went blue, tried to use weak visitor, and claims he was blocked.  It would be difficult to manufacture this because blue has 2 energy, and I think Haddock tried to weak visit as well.  So, the only scenario where scum didn't block blue is where both silver and haddock are lying.
-Haddock, I just talked about.

It is also to be pointed out that we have nothing but sliver's and Haddock's words that they went to blue. Scum would know that blue was blocked and safe to fakeclaim.

[Haddock]

-silverspawn went blue, tried to use weak visitor, and claims he was blocked.  It would be difficult to manufacture this because blue has 2 energy, and I think Haddock tried to weak visit as well.  So, the only scenario where scum didn't block blue is where both silver and haddock are lying.
-Haddock, I just talked about.

It is also to be pointed out that we have nothing but sliver's and Haddock's words that they went to blue. Scum would know that blue was blocked and safe to fakeclaim.

I'm not caught up.
But this rankled a bit.
What you just said is true of pretty much everyone, no?

How do you explain our desire for colour claiming except by the reason we gave? (Wanting to know who went redwards and could have blocked things.)  That's not a plan scum comes up with.
(Your idea that somehow colour-claiming gives scum too much information simply won't stand.)

[theorel]

-silverspawn went blue, tried to use weak visitor, and claims he was blocked.  It would be difficult to manufacture this because blue has 2 energy, and I think Haddock tried to weak visit as well.  So, the only scenario where scum didn't block blue is where both silver and haddock are lying.
-Haddock, I just talked about.

It is also to be pointed out that we have nothing but sliver's and Haddock's words that they went to blue. Scum would know that blue was blocked and safe to fakeclaim.

I mean, yes sure...but in that case it just means that more scum went red, not less.  My whole point was that scum went red to block blue and block cop, which means at least 2 scum went red.  If you're arguing that these guys might have gone red, and then some other scum went blue, it doesn't really change things because all the "went red" players (except gkrieg), are just players that didn't bother to claim.

[faust]

What you just said is true of pretty much everyone, no?

Yes it is. But for some reason theorel was PoEing people based on very possibly fake claims, which is not sound logic.

[faust]

-silverspawn went blue, tried to use weak visitor, and claims he was blocked.  It would be difficult to manufacture this because blue has 2 energy, and I think Haddock tried to weak visit as well.  So, the only scenario where scum didn't block blue is where both silver and haddock are lying.
-Haddock, I just talked about.

It is also to be pointed out that we have nothing but sliver's and Haddock's words that they went to blue. Scum would know that blue was blocked and safe to fakeclaim.

I mean, yes sure...but in that case it just means that more scum went red, not less.  My whole point was that scum went red to block blue and block cop, which means at least 2 scum went red.  If you're arguing that these guys might have gone red, and then some other scum went blue, it doesn't really change things because all the "went red" players (except gkrieg), are just players that didn't bother to claim.

Well, scum would know they'd end up looking rather scummy going to red, so naturally they would be more prone to lie about it. Then if that just leaves the townies who won't lie and happened to also go to red, then that's not exactly a brilliant outcome.

[iguanaiguana]

Vote: Gkrieg L-1

Gkrieg is the least present of the people in the top half. So that seems like a good choice.

[gkrieg13]

Vote: Gkrieg L-1

Gkrieg is the least present of the people in the top half. So that seems like a good choice.

How does this make sense?

Haven't had time to catch up. I'm not scum.  If the case on me is just that I was in the top half of the draft and on the wagon yesterday, those are pretty crappy reasons.  Of the votes on me, the ones from LaLight and iguana look the scummiest.  No real reasoning, and very lazy votes.

[faust]

unvote

With this many scums around, there's no need to do something stupid.

[faust]

Vote: Gkrieg L-1

Gkrieg is the least present of the people in the top half. So that seems like a good choice.

How does this make sense?

Haven't had time to catch up. I'm not scum.  If the case on me is just that I was in the top half of the draft and on the wagon yesterday, those are pretty crappy reasons.  Of the votes on me, the ones from LaLight and iguana look the scummiest.  No real reasoning, and very lazy votes.

What did you do tonight?

[gkrieg13]

Vote: Gkrieg L-1

Gkrieg is the least present of the people in the top half. So that seems like a good choice.

How does this make sense?

Haven't had time to catch up. I'm not scum.  If the case on me is just that I was in the top half of the draft and on the wagon yesterday, those are pretty crappy reasons.  Of the votes on me, the ones from LaLight and iguana look the scummiest.  No real reasoning, and very lazy votes.

What did you do tonight?

Did not take a first action, moved redwards, used the lift.

[Haddock]

-silverspawn went blue, tried to use weak visitor, and claims he was blocked.  It would be difficult to manufacture this because blue has 2 energy, and I think Haddock tried to weak visit as well.  So, the only scenario where scum didn't block blue is where both silver and haddock are lying.
-Haddock, I just talked about.

It is also to be pointed out that we have nothing but sliver's and Haddock's words that they went to blue. Scum would know that blue was blocked and safe to fakeclaim.

I mean, yes sure...but in that case it just means that more scum went red, not less.  My whole point was that scum went red to block blue and block cop, which means at least 2 scum went red.  If you're arguing that these guys might have gone red, and then some other scum went blue, it doesn't really change things because all the "went red" players (except gkrieg), are just players that didn't bother to claim.

Well, scum would know they'd end up looking rather scummy going to red, so naturally they would be more prone to lie about it. Then if that just leaves the townies who won't lie and happened to also go to red, then that's not exactly a brilliant outcome.

I don't agree that they'd necessarily know this

This is exactly why I wanted colours claimed before we had too much discussion.

[faust]

Vote: Gkrieg L-1

Gkrieg is the least present of the people in the top half. So that seems like a good choice.

How does this make sense?

Haven't had time to catch up. I'm not scum.  If the case on me is just that I was in the top half of the draft and on the wagon yesterday, those are pretty crappy reasons.  Of the votes on me, the ones from LaLight and iguana look the scummiest.  No real reasoning, and very lazy votes.

What did you do tonight?

Did not take a first action, moved redwards, used the lift.

What? Why would you waste an action?

[Haddock]

Vote: Gkrieg L-1

Gkrieg is the least present of the people in the top half. So that seems like a good choice.

How does this make sense?

Haven't had time to catch up. I'm not scum.  If the case on me is just that I was in the top half of the draft and on the wagon yesterday, those are pretty crappy reasons.  Of the votes on me, the ones from LaLight and iguana look the scummiest.  No real reasoning, and very lazy votes.

What did you do tonight?

Did not take a first action, moved redwards, used the lift.

What? Why would you waste an action?

Why not? Saving cards is good if you have nothing efficient to do. And taking lifts when you don't need to is inefficient.

[faust]

Vote: Gkrieg L-1

Gkrieg is the least present of the people in the top half. So that seems like a good choice.

How does this make sense?

Haven't had time to catch up. I'm not scum.  If the case on me is just that I was in the top half of the draft and on the wagon yesterday, those are pretty crappy reasons.  Of the votes on me, the ones from LaLight and iguana look the scummiest.  No real reasoning, and very lazy votes.

What did you do tonight?

Did not take a first action, moved redwards, used the lift.

What? Why would you waste an action?

Why not? Saving cards is good if you have nothing efficient to do. And taking lifts when you don't need to is inefficient.

I was actually looking forward to hearing gkrieg's reply.

[gkrieg13]

Vote: Gkrieg L-1

Gkrieg is the least present of the people in the top half. So that seems like a good choice.

How does this make sense?

Haven't had time to catch up. I'm not scum.  If the case on me is just that I was in the top half of the draft and on the wagon yesterday, those are pretty crappy reasons.  Of the votes on me, the ones from LaLight and iguana look the scummiest.  No real reasoning, and very lazy votes.

What did you do tonight?

Did not take a first action, moved redwards, used the lift.

What? Why would you waste an action?

I just wanted to get down to the bottom level, and also didn't want to ruin everyone else's plans.  I figured there would be more congestion at the central lift, and since I couldn't go blueward, I figured going red and using the lift would be the best choice, that would help other people get down the lift.  I had a couple of other reasons that I would rather not say.

[silverspawn]

It looks like my actions didn't do anything apparently, but I had a very poor choice of cards to play. I refilled the central pool

PPE: 1 (not only me apparently)

One of you is lying obviously... only one of you could have used the lift in phase 2. Unless there is like a lot of people that tried using the lift.

More than 1 person can use a lift in the same phase (every 4 people can use a lift).  I'm not sure why you say "unless a lot of people tried using the lift".  What does people trying to use the lift have to do with it?

Err... for 2 people to successfully use the same lift in the same phase, there need to be 3 more people who tried and failed to use that lift... is that not correct?

I wrote a big post on how we should coordinate lift usage based on the same misunderstanding on day1, before i double checked and realized it didn't work that way...

[silverspawn]

This is all very chaotic, but i guess that's to be expected.

My scum read on faust is waning. But I'm not sure why.

[silverspawn]

Is there any reason why we shouldn't lynch Awaclus except that he also does anti town play as town?

[2.71828.....]

Is there any reason why we shouldn't lynch Awaclus except that he also does anti town play as town?

Not that I can think of

[silverspawn]

I worry that we will just take that as the defualt and don't...

eh what the hell. He's in the top half. vote: awaclus

[Awaclus]

Is there any reason why we shouldn't lynch Awaclus

I have been playing super pro-town.

[Roadrunner7671]

I took two unsuccessful actions and moved bluewards by the way, I don't see a ton of harm in claiming that.

[EFHW]

I've reread gkrieg and see no reason not to lynch him.

I can get behind an Awaclus lynch as well.

[EFHW]

Now reread Haddock. His day one was very much like gkrieg's. The way he came in could have been staged.

Boo!

We weren't supposed to do any Space-Alerty things during N0, right?  Cos I totally lost track of time and did nothing.

He did the hammer with protest. That could also have been staged.

Day two he has given some thought to claiming strategies and his color claiming idea was sensible, even though the rationale was unclear (at least to me) until it was too late to follow it. He could have insisted earlier on - didn't because too busy? because actually didn't care (is scum)? because unsure of himself?

So, I can put scum or town narratives on his play. Reserving judgement for the moment.

[EFHW]

I have townreads on Skumpy and Theorel.

I'm resisting my scumread on faust because that's often my reaction to him. He's too hard to lynch based on what there is now, anyway. Maybe someone will get a chance to investigate him. Would be bonus if we could clear him because doubting him creates a lot of strife.

iguana, RR, Lalight have been negligible contributors to the game. So, kind of like gkrieg, might as well lynch them but I don't have any strong reads there.

silver is interesting. He's been active, kind of volatile, taken positions. I'll read him next to see if there are any patterns to be found. Then e.

[EFHW]

Got through Day 1 and have to go. His theory talk shows he is very motivated and I think he was sincere in his recommendations. His voting seemed haphazard and he was a main driver of the cheesyJelly lynch, though inconsistently so. I went along with it too, so it would be hypocritical to scumread him just for that, but it's there to consider.

I don't want to lynch any active players today.

[gkrieg13]

vote: silver for provoking Awaclus

[faust]

Vote: Gkrieg L-1

Gkrieg is the least present of the people in the top half. So that seems like a good choice.

How does this make sense?

Haven't had time to catch up. I'm not scum.  If the case on me is just that I was in the top half of the draft and on the wagon yesterday, those are pretty crappy reasons.  Of the votes on me, the ones from LaLight and iguana look the scummiest.  No real reasoning, and very lazy votes.

What did you do tonight?

Did not take a first action, moved redwards, used the lift.

What? Why would you waste an action?

I just wanted to get down to the bottom level, and also didn't want to ruin everyone else's plans.  I figured there would be more congestion at the central lift, and since I couldn't go blueward, I figured going red and using the lift would be the best choice, that would help other people get down the lift.  I had a couple of other reasons that I would rather not say.

Well, go ahead and not say them then. But vote: gkrieg

Back to L-1 (I think?)

[faust]

Got through Day 1 and have to go. His theory talk shows he is very motivated and I think he was sincere in his recommendations. His voting seemed haphazard and he was a main driver of the cheesyJelly lynch, though inconsistently so. I went along with it too, so it would be hypocritical to scumread him just for that, but it's there to consider.

I don't want to lynch any active players today.

Problem is that most of the upper half players are active.

I don't want to lynch lower half today.

[gkrieg13]

Vote: Gkrieg L-1

Gkrieg is the least present of the people in the top half. So that seems like a good choice.

How does this make sense?

Haven't had time to catch up. I'm not scum.  If the case on me is just that I was in the top half of the draft and on the wagon yesterday, those are pretty crappy reasons.  Of the votes on me, the ones from LaLight and iguana look the scummiest.  No real reasoning, and very lazy votes.

What did you do tonight?

Did not take a first action, moved redwards, used the lift.

What? Why would you waste an action?

I just wanted to get down to the bottom level, and also didn't want to ruin everyone else's plans.  I figured there would be more congestion at the central lift, and since I couldn't go blueward, I figured going red and using the lift would be the best choice, that would help other people get down the lift.  I had a couple of other reasons that I would rather not say.

Well, go ahead and not say them then. But vote: gkrieg

Back to L-1 (I think?)

I wanted to save the cards I had, and didn’t want to block other people who had thought I had done something different.

[Skumpy]

Sorry all, I'm going to use my one apologies-for-not-saying-much-recently card now. I should be able to post some more stuffs tomorrow.

In case anyone cares where we are with claiming actions:
Full claim: Awaclus, Skumpy, theorel, gkrieg, LaLight
Partial-to-satisfactory claim: silverspawn, Haddock, EFHW, RoadRunner
Still mostly unknown: faust, e, Iguana

Keep in mind there's still 2 red actions missing - apparently, they've just vanished into thin air? mcmc may have got one, but the other is still a question mark.

WV: Iguana

@Awaclus: Can you get a printout again tonight? It'd also be nice to have a 2nd from somebody, whether they state their intentions to or not now.

[LaLight]

WV: Skumpy

[faust]

Keep in mind there's still 2 red actions missing - apparently, they've just vanished into thin air? mcmc may have got one, but the other is still a question mark.

Hot take: scum!gkrieg commuted.

[faust]

Weak Visit: Haddock

[LaLight]

Keep in mind there's still 2 red actions missing - apparently, they've just vanished into thin air? mcmc may have got one, but the other is still a question mark.

Hot take: scum!gkrieg commuted.

Why would he anyway? Copped for that matter

[LaLight]

Deadline is a day away, correct? Do we want an early lynch?

[LaLight]

And do we have plan for tonight?

[faust]

Let's take a look at some wagons:

gkrieg13 (6): 2.71828....., silverspawn, LaLight, theorel, iguana, faust

CheesyJelly (: theorel, 2.71828....., EFHW, gkrieg13, silverspawn, mcmcsalot, iguanaiguana, Haddock

iguanaiguana (5): faust, gkrieg13, LaLight, silverspawn, CheesyJelly

Jelly and iguana wagons from D1.

What I see is a pretty large overlap of the Jelly and gkrieg wagons that makes me uneasy. The gkrieg wagon also features the 2 scummiest remaining players in the top half. This is something that could go very wrong very quickly.

The iguana wagon was something I always wanted to check for overlap with Jelly as the Jelly wagon has kind of made iguana obsolete on D1. The people to push that... silverspawn and gkrieg.

[faust]

unvote

[faust]

Keep in mind there's still 2 red actions missing - apparently, they've just vanished into thin air? mcmc may have got one, but the other is still a question mark.

Hot take: scum!gkrieg commuted.

Why would he anyway? Copped for that matter

Well he can take energy away from red, and prevent being Copped.

[LaLight]

I am still willing to return to silver, but staying on gkrieg is also fine. Fwiw I think they both are scum

[faust]

Hurr durr. If only there wasn't EFHW's result, I would be voting silver like there's no tomorrow.

Oh well. Vote:theorel The whole "I'll wiggle the mouse" thing was super duper town-cred-grabby anyway. I guess I should reread though.

[LaLight]

Hurr durr. If only there wasn't EFHW's result, I would be voting silver like there's no tomorrow.

Oh well. Vote:theorel The whole "I'll wiggle the mouse" thing was super duper town-cred-grabby anyway. I guess I should reread though.

There's 4 scums, anyone could do the kill, EFHW's result doesn't clear silver in one bit. Other than that we don't know if EFHW is telling the truth as well.

[LaLight]

Hurr durr. If only there wasn't EFHW's result, I would be voting silver like there's no tomorrow.

Oh well. Vote:theorel The whole "I'll wiggle the mouse" thing was super duper town-cred-grabby anyway. I guess I should reread though.

You also want to add a space in the vote

[Haddock]

Now reread Haddock. His day one was very much like gkrieg's. The way he came in could have been staged.

Boo!

We weren't supposed to do any Space-Alerty things during N0, right?  Cos I totally lost track of time and did nothing.

He did the hammer with protest. That could also have been staged.

Day two he has given some thought to claiming strategies and his color claiming idea was sensible, even though the rationale was unclear (at least to me) until it was too late to follow it. He could have insisted earlier on - didn't because too busy? because actually didn't care (is scum)? because unsure of himself?

So, I can put scum or town narratives on his play. Reserving judgement for the moment.

This is me trying to insist.

if we claim blue/red movement, we're giving scum more data to figure out who left the upper deck. of course if people used actions, we need to communicate this anyway, but in other cases I don't see any benefit.

I see a fairly decent benefit to it in that it forces scum fakeclaims to start boxing themselves in before they have too much other information.
Also how does left-right information help with up-down information? There are still way too many possibilities for them to get anything out of it.

But whatever.


Yeah awa's behaviour is particularly terrible the more I think about it.

I don't have the energy to fight faust.

vote: silver for provoking Awaclus

What the hell even is this?  Do you not acknowledge that Awaclus's play has been horrific (even by his standards)?

I could vote either Awaclus or gkrieg at this point but prefer vote: Awaclus


Also wv: faust

[faust]

All that said, I think some minimal coordination is fine.  For instance, I volunteer to wiggle the mouse during the first space-phase (assuming I'm not lynched).  The danger is, if I'm scum I can choose not to wiggle the mouse and potentially mess up other players using lifts when they don't expect.  But, I'm town, so I know that won't happen.  You'll just have to judge if the danger of me being scum is worth it, and plan accordingly.  I don't even know when I'm going during the night-phase at this stage, so even if I'm scum I can't plan to mess people up any more than if I didn't volunteer for it.  And of course, if the mouse isn't wiggled tomorrow you'll know I'm scum.

I mean look at that whole paragraph. Even including a "I'm town". Plus implication that he should be townread once the mouse is wiggled.

Anyways, I'm just gonna vote for someone and hope to shake myself out of theory talk (ha! like I can stop myself).  vote: CheesyJelly.  There, I'll try to do some actual scum-hunting or something tomorrow.

Super-late RVS vote.

At least I know why CheesyJelly is being voted for.  And...well, it's not a bad reason.  It seems like he's following the authority that he's suspicious of.  Of course it seems that way because he didn't actually give a reason for his vote.  He also jumped on the Haddock v. iguana thing, which as far as I can tell is pretty much random.

Okay, I can go back to my (formerly 100% random) vote of vote: CheesyJelly.

Badly-reasoned jump on the Jelly wagon after he briefly voted somewhere else.

That said, I think the RR vote is better than the iguana one...not sure how I feel about it relative the CJ lynch.

Hedge hedge.

...

large snip
As for the wagons, CJ's not the towniest guy around, and I do admittedly have half the information, but it's starting to reek of a dual town wagon. There's no concern, no frantic movement, everybody seems content to just let the wagons ride out. Which naturally includes 4 scum. I'll look dumb when CJ ends up being scum...eh. I'll vote there if needed, but I agree with basically everybody else that there are better options. Such as RR.

I don't think this is true, gonna get some data to back it up but if I am correct as I think I am, cheesy has been the dominant wagon amidst attempts to jump back to iguana (whos wagon was first), over to roadrunner, and finally to you. So scum is not happy settling on cheesy, remember there is four scum so they can make up half of a wagon themselves, obviously they don't want to but there haven't been tons of I would vote cj but comments which I would expect from scum waiting to hop on a town wagon.

I'm looking forward to seeing that information.  I think it's worthwhile also seeing how the attempted RR-wagon has gone.  At this moment, it looks like the RR wagon has had a harder time building than the CJ wagon, with maybe even more people claiming he's scummy.  Anyways, if so it might be a strong argument for RR being scum as well.

Increasingly looking to maybe keep the "RR is scum" notion alive while continuing to vote Jelly.

So, is scum avoiding the CJ wagon, because they don't want to get their hands dirty and CJ's town, or are they hoping that they can get away without him being lynched somehow?  I mean, if he's scum scum would have hammered for the cred right?

Or maybe they're just not around to try to do that?  I dunno, maybe I'm just getting cold feet.  I prefer being absent at deadlines...

Oh, look at me, I'm so townie for having second thoughts on the player I pushed all D1 and still I'm not unvoting!

I think if someone did something scummy overnight it's awaclus, and I think just shrugging and moving on is exactly what scum would want to happen.  I'm feeling less benevolent towards too-scummy-to-be-scum since O abused the notion as scum.

I'm still a little under the weather, so I'm gonna stick a vote: awaclus here...not sure how often I'll be checking back in.

Super easy scumread here in D2. Just go for the player who did something questionable.

There's the possibility Lalight went down, filled Central, and moved blue...but I'm not sure why that would result in the comment you quoted:

I definitely can say my night was good

I'm good with vote: Lalight

Same happens here. None of these bear much original thought.

Let me do a long post justifying my jump on the leading wagon.

[faust]

Hurr durr. If only there wasn't EFHW's result, I would be voting silver like there's no tomorrow.

Oh well. Vote:theorel The whole "I'll wiggle the mouse" thing was super duper town-cred-grabby anyway. I guess I should reread though.

You also want to add a space in the vote

Maybe Space will do it for me?

Maybe not. vote: theorel

[faust]

Hurr durr. If only there wasn't EFHW's result, I would be voting silver like there's no tomorrow.

Oh well. Vote:theorel The whole "I'll wiggle the mouse" thing was super duper town-cred-grabby anyway. I guess I should reread though.

There's 4 scums, anyone could do the kill, EFHW's result doesn't clear silver in one bit. Other than that we don't know if EFHW is telling the truth as well.

It doesn't clear him, but of all the actions he could have taken as scum, at least some are targeting, most prominently Roleblock, Cop, kill.

I don't think scum!EFHW risks fakeclearing scum!silver.

[faust]

Basically for silver to be scum he would have gone to red and disabled blue, as that is non-targeting. But scum would rather have someone lower in the resolution chain do that, as it's not blockable anyway.

[faust]

What the hell even is this?  Do you not acknowledge that Awaclus's play has been horrific (even by his standards)?

I could vote either Awaclus or gkrieg at this point but prefer vote: Awaclus

How is this an alignment tell?

[Haddock]

What the hell even is this?  Do you not acknowledge that Awaclus's play has been horrific (even by his standards)?

I could vote either Awaclus or gkrieg at this point but prefer vote: Awaclus

How is this an alignment tell?

How is what an alignment tell?

[LaLight]

What the hell even is this?  Do you not acknowledge that Awaclus's play has been horrific (even by his standards)?

I could vote either Awaclus or gkrieg at this point but prefer vote: Awaclus

How is this an alignment tell?

How is what an alignment tell?

Awaclus' play obviously

[Haddock]

What the hell even is this?  Do you not acknowledge that Awaclus's play has been horrific (even by his standards)?

I could vote either Awaclus or gkrieg at this point but prefer vote: Awaclus

How is this an alignment tell?

How is what an alignment tell?

Awaclus' play obviously

If that is what faust means, I'm not sure how it's even a question.

Awaclus sabotaged town during the night. 

Maybe that comes from town!Awa not paying attention, but it's just as likely to come from scum!Awa knowing that his reputation for psychotic town play will get him a free pass (oh look what happened).

[faust]

If that is what faust means, I'm not sure how it's even a question.

Awaclus sabotaged town during the night. 

Maybe that comes from town!Awa not paying attention, but it's just as likely to come from scum!Awa knowing that his reputation for psychotic town play will get him a free pass (oh look what happened).

How did Awaclus sabotage town?

[Awaclus]

@Awaclus: Can you get a printout again tonight? It'd also be nice to have a 2nd from somebody, whether they state their intentions to or not now.

Nope, I don't have any A cards this time.

Awaclus sabotaged town during the night.

I didn't sabotage town, I sabotaged Skumpy. Vote: Haddock

[faust]

I didn't sabotage town, I sabotaged Skumpy. Vote: Haddock

The way I see it, you mainly sabotaged yourself. But that isn't exactly a smart thing to do as scum.

[faust]

People who are scumread today should consider going to lower red and send some cards to a player they think is townie. This is a way of proving that you didn't meddle with anything.

[faust]

But, Awaclus, can you now release the info on red actions, as I don't suppose we will get any more claims?

[Awaclus]

But, Awaclus, can you now release the info on red actions, as I don't suppose we will get any more claims?

Should I just claim the full status print-out?

[faust]

But, Awaclus, can you now release the info on red actions, as I don't suppose we will get any more claims?

Should I just claim the full status print-out?

Sounds good at this point.

[Awaclus]

Here's the status print-out: 1*Commute, 1*RB and 1*Track

[LaLight]

so, someone indeed commuted

[LaLight]

and it was not mcmc

[LaLight]

wait, no one wiggled the mouse? vote: theorel

[Awaclus]

wait, no one wiggled the mouse? vote: theorel

Wiggling the mouse is not a mafia game action so it won't show up in the status print-out.

[LaLight]

wait, no one wiggled the mouse? vote: theorel

Wiggling the mouse is not a mafia game action so it won't show up in the status print-out.

oh I guess you're right. Back to vote: gkrieg13

[faust]

Here's the status print-out: 1*Commute, 1*RB and 1*Track

.. how can the red energy even be at 0 with only 1 action used? That's literally impossible.

Vote: Awaclus

[Awaclus]

Here's the status print-out: 1*Commute, 1*RB and 1*Track

.. how can the red energy even be at 0 with only 1 action used? That's literally impossible.

Vote: Awaclus

That's a good question. I don't know, but that is certainly the status print-out I received.

[faust]

Here's the status print-out: 1*Commute, 1*RB and 1*Track

.. how can the red energy even be at 0 with only 1 action used? That's literally impossible.

Vote: Awaclus

That's a good question. I don't know, but that is certainly the status print-out I received.

Well right now the only possible answer is that you're lying scum, so you better come up with an alternative answer soon.

[gkrieg13]

Now reread Haddock. His day one was very much like gkrieg's. The way he came in could have been staged.

Boo!

We weren't supposed to do any Space-Alerty things during N0, right?  Cos I totally lost track of time and did nothing.

He did the hammer with protest. That could also have been staged.

Day two he has given some thought to claiming strategies and his color claiming idea was sensible, even though the rationale was unclear (at least to me) until it was too late to follow it. He could have insisted earlier on - didn't because too busy? because actually didn't care (is scum)? because unsure of himself?

So, I can put scum or town narratives on his play. Reserving judgement for the moment.

This is me trying to insist.

if we claim blue/red movement, we're giving scum more data to figure out who left the upper deck. of course if people used actions, we need to communicate this anyway, but in other cases I don't see any benefit.

I see a fairly decent benefit to it in that it forces scum fakeclaims to start boxing themselves in before they have too much other information.
Also how does left-right information help with up-down information? There are still way too many possibilities for them to get anything out of it.

But whatever.


Yeah awa's behaviour is particularly terrible the more I think about it.

I don't have the energy to fight faust.

vote: silver for provoking Awaclus

What the hell even is this?  Do you not acknowledge that Awaclus's play has been horrific (even by his standards)?

I could vote either Awaclus or gkrieg at this point but prefer vote: Awaclus


Also wv: faust

You’re right. I had forgotten what Awaclus had done at night. vote: Awaclus

[faust]

Man I'm kind of bummed that I misunderstood the lifts... we should definitely have coordinated for everyone to be at the lower deck by now.

[faust]

Anyway, everyone not yet there should be able to get to lower deck tonight. This will be a big help. And then, you  know, just never leave again. We can do all the good stuff from down there anyway.

[Awaclus]

Mod: can you confirm that there hasn't been an error regarding the energy distributions?

[2.71828.....]

I think at this point I will be voting gkrieg or theorel.

Commuting N1 is just not good in my opinion. It does nothing except say "I want to live and don't really care about trying  to figure stuff out for town"

I think whoever commuted should 1) claim and 2) explain themself.

I don't want to lynch awaclus yet. I need to go back and read the energy usage and stuff again though.

[EFHW]

vote count please

[Skumpy]

Time for Skumpy's miscellaneous corner!

Commuting N1 is just not good in my opinion. It does nothing except say "I want to live and don't really care about trying  to figure stuff out for town"

I think whoever commuted should 1) claim and 2) explain themself.

You're not really one who should be demanding that other people claim when you haven't.
But I think whoever commuted should 1) claim and 2) explain themself.

The Awaclus situation: Well, it don't look good. How he himself didn't realize the issue earlier is even worse. Still, I can wait for Space to respond first. Though I have a really tough time believing that between 13 players, not one went for a cop shot. Also that nobody cop flipped. Does that not seem bizarre to anybody else?  What else would scum have wanted to do?

Man I'm kind of bummed that I misunderstood the lifts... we should definitely have coordinated for everyone to be at the lower deck by now.

No. Too easy for scum to mess that up, and also no guaranteeing everybody has the needed cards. What we had for D1 seems like it was should have been fine.

I haven't defended ss, this game, have I? Well in that case: I think that wagon is dumb. Definitely not voting there, not in a long while at least. LL's still striking me as townie too, despite his suspicions towards me.

...I feel like there's still a lot I missed.

[Awaclus]

The Awaclus situation: Well, it don't look good. How he himself didn't realize the issue earlier is even worse.

Why would I realize the issue? Of course I expected the energy level to match with my results so I didn't go and check if it did.

[Skumpy]

The Awaclus situation: Well, it don't look good. How he himself didn't realize the issue earlier is even worse.

Why would I realize the issue? Of course I expected the energy level to match with my results so I didn't go and check if it did.

It's not a hard calculation, friend. And what if somebody had refilled red? And you didn't care about the status of blue or white either?

[silverspawn]

Man I'm kind of bummed that I misunderstood the lifts... we should definitely have coordinated for everyone to be at the lower deck by now.

really? Like I said, I wanted to communicate when I thought it worked like you thought it worked, but then decided that not communicating was better once I realized how it actually worked.

With how it actually works, if you have players #2, #7, #12 use lift, then scum #3-6, #8-11 just uses lift and the towns fail. Random beyond the first 3 players seems better.

[silverspawn]

*coordinate, not communicate

[silverspawn]

How do we know red is at 0? I missed that.

[SpaceAnemone]

Sorry.. no mod stuff/vote count till late tonight (UK time) because I'm at Haddock's place this evening!

Since it came up, though, all my vote counts are automated, so I'm definitely being strict with the vote format.

[Roadrunner7671]

Deadline's coming up but I'm okay with a Vote: awaclus. The status printout doesn't make sense to me and there doesn't seem to be an explanation.

[2.71828.....]

Deadline's coming up but I'm okay with a Vote: awaclus. The status printout doesn't make sense to me and there doesn't seem to be an explanation.

There is also no reason for scum or town to lie about the result. In fact, it makes more sense for town to give a perplexing result.

[2.71828.....]

No, my algorithm for picking the upper half does not include selecting the middle element of an odd-sized set in this case.

The ship appears to be functioning nominally for D2/going into Space Phase 2.

Red pool: 0
White pool: 5
Blue pool: 2

[silverspawn]

yeah, e is right. I think theorel is actually a better choice atm.

vote: theorel

[iguanaiguana]

How long do we have?

[Awaclus]

The Awaclus situation: Well, it don't look good. How he himself didn't realize the issue earlier is even worse.

Why would I realize the issue? Of course I expected the energy level to match with my results so I didn't go and check if it did.

It's not a hard calculation, friend. And what if somebody had refilled red? And you didn't care about the status of blue or white either?

During the day, no. I would have checked during the night. Actually I already forgot what's the status of blue and I'm not going to check right now.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 2.3

gkrieg13 (4): 2.71828....., theorel, iguanaiguana, LaLight
iguanaiguana (1): Skumpy
Awaclus (4): Haddock, faust, gkrieg13, Roadrunner7671
Haddock (1): Awaclus
theorel (1): silverspawn
Not Voting (1): EFHW

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
D2 ends at noon forum time on Friday 9th February. This is just over 17 hours from now.

And yes, many apologies... there's a bit of miscalibration on the energy pool sensors! Something to do with a leaky connection on a plasma conduit, probably. You should probably send someone down to take a look, really...
Red pool: 1
White pool: 5
Blue pool: 2

[2.71828.....]

Ok, I think awaclus has been vindicated with his results. Resulted are not town/scum indicative, but I don't want to lynch him today

[Awaclus]

Vote: gkrieg

This might be the last chance I get to post before deadline.

[EFHW]

vote: Awaclus

[theorel]

I can't believe that no one took cop.  I mean, just...ugh, really?  No one even tried?  What the crap were you people doing?  Just, how does this even happen?  Just as well that Awaclus didn't charge Red, because apparently it would have been wasted actions anyways.  No one tried to cop, no one tried to status print-out (except Awaclus), no one tried to Track (except EFHW), heck scum could have just spent their whole turn going to lower blue, and making nk's happen.  What'd everyone pass an action to make sure that we didn't end up with too many powers being used?

unvote gkrieg's not scummy any more, no more so than anyone else.

[Skumpy]

I can't believe that no one took cop.  I mean, just...ugh, really?  No one even tried?  What the crap were you people doing?  Just, how does this even happen?  Just as well that Awaclus didn't charge Red, because apparently it would have been wasted actions anyways.  No one tried to cop, no one tried to status print-out (except Awaclus), no one tried to Track (except EFHW), heck scum could have just spent their whole turn going to lower blue, and making nk's happen.  What'd everyone pass an action to make sure that we didn't end up with too many powers being used?

unvote gkrieg's not scummy any more, no more so than anyone else.

Regardless of your alignment; thank you for being the only one making sense. Now I REALLY want to know what faust, e, and Iguana were up to. Especially faust. He wouldn't have gone white, he wouldn't have gone blue. So what did he do in red? As for iguana: why you people have anything going for him other than that he wasn't in the top half, I don't know. Staying there for now. This upper half thing is still complete crap.

[faust]

vote: Awaclus

Really?

This is ridiculous.

[faust]

Anyway vote: gkrieg is the place to be I think.

[gkrieg13]

Anyway vote: gkrieg is the place to be I think.

Why?

[faust]

Anyway vote: gkrieg is the place to be I think.

Why?

You went to red and claim to not have done anything. That's super scummy; you could have easily used Cop and left it for scum. You claimed to not have had the cards to do what was asked of you, which is unlikely. You were in the upper half. You were on the awful Jelly wagon.

[faust]

This upper half thing is still complete crap.

I have shown that people in the upper half are 50% more likely scum that people in the lower half. You have yet to explain why this is "complete crap".

[gkrieg13]

Anyway vote: gkrieg is the place to be I think.

Why?

You went to red and claim to not have done anything. That's super scummy; you could have easily used Cop and left it for scum. You claimed to not have had the cards to do what was asked of you, which is unlikely. You were in the upper half. You were on the awful Jelly wagon.

How is that scummy?  The fact that I didn’t have any blue cards isn’t super unlikely. Because I knew that people were expecting me to go for blue, so I wanted to block as few people as possible. How was I supposed to know that people weren’t going to go for cop? 

Being in the upper half was out of my control, and the CJ wagon was mainly to get a lynch through. I hadn’t realized that we were at an even number and that night actions would be so important and that a no lynch wouldn’t have been bad.

[gkrieg13]

Wait, is there an unclaimed cop shot?

[Skumpy]

This upper half thing is still complete crap.

I have shown that people in the upper half are 50% more likely scum that people in the lower half. You have yet to explain why this is "complete crap".

Because you're not involving any other factors whatsoever into it. In the absence of other information, then sure. But everybody in the top half has at least explained themselves somewhat, albeit a lot of suspicious cases. If we mislynch today, is the lynch pool going to stay in the top 6 of people today for you if we don't get any investigative info tonight (which isn't crazy, considering we got basically none N1 and that at your insistence, people are trying to get to the lower deck where they can't pick up more).

What you should be worried about is that there are 3 people (who notably aren't in the top half) who have not bothered to give any explanation about their night action. Normally, it wouldn't be so terrible, but now that we know that NOBODY went for a cop, then what the heck were they up to? Somebody blocked blue Round 2 (c'mon, obviously no one tried for WV round 3 - they wanted to go down the lift). Perhaps it was gkrieg. But as of right now, based on what people have said, he's the only person who possibly could've - and I find it very difficult to believe that he was both the only person who went red and the person who did in fact shut off blue. As I've said (and as you agreed), it's likely that it was somebody late in the order who did it. Such as, I don't know, Iguana?

[faust]

How is that scummy?  The fact that I didn’t have any blue cards isn’t super unlikely. Because I knew that people were expecting me to go for blue, so I wanted to block as few people as possible. How was I supposed to know that people weren’t going to go for cop? 

In your shoes, I would have preferred to take a Cop shot myself instead of potentially leaving it lying around for scum to pick up...

[faust]

What you should be worried about is that there are 3 people (who notably aren't in the top half) who have not bothered to give any explanation about their night action. Normally, it wouldn't be so terrible, but now that we know that NOBODY went for a cop, then what the heck were they up to? Somebody blocked blue Round 2 (c'mon, obviously no one tried for WV round 3 - they wanted to go down the lift). Perhaps it was gkrieg. But as of right now, based on what people have said, he's the only person who possibly could've - and I find it very difficult to believe that he was both the only person who went red and the person who did in fact shut off blue. As I've said (and as you agreed), it's likely that it was somebody late in the order who did it. Such as, I don't know, Iguana?

And what do we get out of them claiming? Fakeclaiming anything is a super easy task here. e did not say something earlier because he wasn't around. I don't see the need to reveal info about myself. iguana is somewhat scummy, but not nearly as much as gkrieg.

[Skumpy]

What you should be worried about is that there are 3 people (who notably aren't in the top half) who have not bothered to give any explanation about their night action. Normally, it wouldn't be so terrible, but now that we know that NOBODY went for a cop, then what the heck were they up to? Somebody blocked blue Round 2 (c'mon, obviously no one tried for WV round 3 - they wanted to go down the lift). Perhaps it was gkrieg. But as of right now, based on what people have said, he's the only person who possibly could've - and I find it very difficult to believe that he was both the only person who went red and the person who did in fact shut off blue. As I've said (and as you agreed), it's likely that it was somebody late in the order who did it. Such as, I don't know, Iguana?

And what do we get out of them claiming? Fakeclaiming anything is a super easy task here. e did not say something earlier because he wasn't around. I don't see the need to reveal info about myself. iguana is somewhat scummy, but not nearly as much as gkrieg.

OK. Give me a fakeclaim of what you did last night.

[faust]

What you should be worried about is that there are 3 people (who notably aren't in the top half) who have not bothered to give any explanation about their night action. Normally, it wouldn't be so terrible, but now that we know that NOBODY went for a cop, then what the heck were they up to? Somebody blocked blue Round 2 (c'mon, obviously no one tried for WV round 3 - they wanted to go down the lift). Perhaps it was gkrieg. But as of right now, based on what people have said, he's the only person who possibly could've - and I find it very difficult to believe that he was both the only person who went red and the person who did in fact shut off blue. As I've said (and as you agreed), it's likely that it was somebody late in the order who did it. Such as, I don't know, Iguana?

And what do we get out of them claiming? Fakeclaiming anything is a super easy task here. e did not say something earlier because he wasn't around. I don't see the need to reveal info about myself. iguana is somewhat scummy, but not nearly as much as gkrieg.

OK. Give me a fakeclaim of what you did last night.

Well I used a Tracker but it didn't work, then I went to blue and used Weak Visitor, but it failed!

[Skumpy]

What you should be worried about is that there are 3 people (who notably aren't in the top half) who have not bothered to give any explanation about their night action. Normally, it wouldn't be so terrible, but now that we know that NOBODY went for a cop, then what the heck were they up to? Somebody blocked blue Round 2 (c'mon, obviously no one tried for WV round 3 - they wanted to go down the lift). Perhaps it was gkrieg. But as of right now, based on what people have said, he's the only person who possibly could've - and I find it very difficult to believe that he was both the only person who went red and the person who did in fact shut off blue. As I've said (and as you agreed), it's likely that it was somebody late in the order who did it. Such as, I don't know, Iguana?

And what do we get out of them claiming? Fakeclaiming anything is a super easy task here. e did not say something earlier because he wasn't around. I don't see the need to reveal info about myself. iguana is somewhat scummy, but not nearly as much as gkrieg.

OK. Give me a fakeclaim of what you did last night.

Well I used a Tracker but it didn't work, then I went to blue and used Weak Visitor, but it failed!

A lot easier once everyone ahead of you has claimed - when you do it earlier, you're running a much bigger risk of being caught. Also, a lot similar to RR's claim, as you yourself probably realized.

But see, now you have to plan for the next night. If you actually went Red and you claim Blue, you're about to be stuck in a web of lies based on N2 actions, unless you decide to move White to quickly fix things (which I am hithertoforth declaring as 'scummy').

Here's the thing about gkrieg: what was the scum discussion like the night before (let's even assume gkrieg is being truthful about not having blue). "Yeah, g13, you go Red and Down and take away the commute shot on the way. Nobody will suspect you of anything when you deny having used a 3rd action". If you're scum, why would gkrieg NOT take the cop shot away from town? And why do you think scum didn't use a copflip?

[faust]

Here's the thing about gkrieg: what was the scum discussion like the night before (let's even assume gkrieg is being truthful about not having blue). "Yeah, g13, you go Red and Down and take away the commute shot on the way. Nobody will suspect you of anything when you deny having used a 3rd action". If you're scum, why would gkrieg NOT take the cop shot away from town? And why do you think scum didn't use a copflip?

Commuting is better than taking the Cop Shot away, since it takes away one shot at the Cop by removing energy AND protects you from investigation.

I'm by the way coming back around to scum!silver, seeing as we now know that the only targeting action scum took tonight was the nightkill.

[faust]

gkrieg reread.

blitz lynch!

vote: iguana

That seems unlike gkrieg.

I think Faust is townie

That is exactly the kind of read I expect to be the first thing scum utters.

vote: CJ

Haven't had the time to get back to this.  I'm hoping to be less busy tomorrow, but no promises.  In my attempting to follow along he looks scummier than iguana.

Wagon jump at 4th position.

Sorry guys, this has probably been my lowest activity for a game ever.  Reading along very sporadically and missing entire pages.  I get townie vibes from Mcmcsalot, and faust is also up there.  I don't get what is scummy about skumpy.  CJ still seems scummy to me and iguana has started looking townier.

Would love an explanation of how iguana was townie.

The people who don't want a Jelly lynch need to coordinate. If there is to be a serious alternative to that lynch, everyone not voting Jelly must be on the same wagon. And say what you will about whether or not Jelly is scummy, but it's always better for analysis if there's actually an alternative.

The other things that we can still call wagons are Skumpy and RR. Skumpy is not going to happen as Skumpy himself is off the Jelly wagon and will hardly self-vote. So, I present you the alternative: RR.

Unless anyone's up for the classic last-minute Awaclus lynch.

I would vote for RR.

But, of course, he doesn't.

Yeah that's it.

[faust]

Noted that it's of course entirely possible that scum!gkrieg went for the RB, but unexpectedly did not get it due to the Awaclus/Skumpy situation.

[faust]

Noted that it's of course entirely possible that scum!gkrieg went for the RB, but unexpectedly did not get it due to the Awaclus/Skumpy situation.

No wait... that would have been the first action. Nevermind.

[faust]

Thinking about what scum did with all their actions is good stuff. Obviously at least 4 were burned by move to red,Commute, Disable, nightkill. I assume that they spent a lot of time on movement, which indicates that a bunch of them might be on the lower deck.

[faust]

These people should use lower red card draw on other people:

iguana
silver
theorel
possibly Awaclus, though I disagree with that read.

[Skumpy]

Here's the thing about gkrieg: what was the scum discussion like the night before (let's even assume gkrieg is being truthful about not having blue). "Yeah, g13, you go Red and Down and take away the commute shot on the way. Nobody will suspect you of anything when you deny having used a 3rd action". If you're scum, why would gkrieg NOT take the cop shot away from town? And why do you think scum didn't use a copflip?

Commuting is better than taking the Cop Shot away, since it takes away one shot at the Cop by removing energy AND protects you from investigation.

Copping also takes away an energy, and the plan was to fill the pool anyways. It's not suspicious if the tracker tracks you because you used an honest cop result. And commuting doesn't protect you from investigation - either the cop/tracker knows you commuted or somebody has to claim roleblocker.

[LaLight]

Here's the thing about gkrieg: what was the scum discussion like the night before (let's even assume gkrieg is being truthful about not having blue). "Yeah, g13, you go Red and Down and take away the commute shot on the way. Nobody will suspect you of anything when you deny having used a 3rd action". If you're scum, why would gkrieg NOT take the cop shot away from town? And why do you think scum didn't use a copflip?

Commuting is better than taking the Cop Shot away, since it takes away one shot at the Cop by removing energy AND protects you from investigation.

Copping also takes away an energy, and the plan was to fill the pool anyways. It's not suspicious if the tracker tracks you because you used an honest cop result. And commuting doesn't protect you from investigation - either the cop/tracker knows you commuted or somebody has to claim roleblocker.

Why do you protect gkrieg? What is your scumread?

[Skumpy]

Here's the thing about gkrieg: what was the scum discussion like the night before (let's even assume gkrieg is being truthful about not having blue). "Yeah, g13, you go Red and Down and take away the commute shot on the way. Nobody will suspect you of anything when you deny having used a 3rd action". If you're scum, why would gkrieg NOT take the cop shot away from town? And why do you think scum didn't use a copflip?

Commuting is better than taking the Cop Shot away, since it takes away one shot at the Cop by removing energy AND protects you from investigation.

Copping also takes away an energy, and the plan was to fill the pool anyways. It's not suspicious if the tracker tracks you because you used an honest cop result. And commuting doesn't protect you from investigation - either the cop/tracker knows you commuted or somebody has to claim roleblocker.

Why do you protect gkrieg? What is your scumread?

I've voted my scumread. Since nobody cares, I'll change...eventually. Once I make a vote, I'll be gone through deadline.

As for gkrieg, maybe I'm playing a little bit of devil's advocate. Obviously, what he did is scummy. But if the scum plan overnight was for him to go Red/[something]/Down(or not - we don't know for sure yet)...how was claiming this going to let him survive the day? Someone else would be scummier? There's no good reason for either alignment to not grab the cop shot, since the group plan was that nobody before would.

As for Awaclus: I think there was scum on my wagon yesterday, and I don't think it was you. Meaning either Awaclus or Roadrunner (or both). If anybody else had done what Awaclus did yesterday, they would have been lynched eons ago. Except it was Awaclus. So he gets a free pass. What he did was potentially sabotage red users (though somehow, that was avoided), and sabotage me and make it look like my actions were really Skummy. Then there's the question of the print-out. It seems that the 3 roles he revealed were honest. But no copswitches? That still befuddles me that none of the 4 scum wanted to switch? If Awaclus is lying scum...why? Probably because there are people who went to blue that now get are a lot less suspicious (like ss and Haddock). If Awaclus is telling the truth...whose idea was it to not copswitch? It's certainly not what I would've suggested. So somebody that truly believed going to blue was a bad idea, like faust?
 

I got distracted. TLDR:

gkrieg: Not going for cop makes no sense as town. Not going for cop, then admitting to not going for cop, makes no sense as scum. He claimed color movement really early on...what did he expect to hide behind?
Awaclus: I just really want to policy lynch this. Not because of what he does the during day, but for not paying attention and doing stupid stuff at night. And I still like a 50/50 between this and RR. Just because it's standard Awaclus doesn't make it town Awaclus.

I've got time yet. You have a few hours to convince me one way or another.

[faust]

If anybody else had done what Awaclus did yesterday, they would have been lynched eons ago. Except it was Awaclus. So he gets a free pass.

You say this as if it were true.

[faust]

There is no reason to believe that scum was on your wagon.

[faust]

I mean, you are saying that looking for scum in the upper half is crappy and then base your scumreads on a way more arbitrary preselection...

[faust]

gkrieg: Not going for cop makes no sense as town. Not going for cop, then admitting to not going for cop, makes no sense as scum. He claimed color movement really early on...what did he expect to hide behind?

Too scummy to be scum.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 2.4

gkrieg13 (5): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, LaLight, Awaclus, faust
iguanaiguana (1): Skumpy
Awaclus (4): Haddock, gkrieg13, Roadrunner7671, EFHW
theorel (1): silverspawn
Not Voting (1): theorel

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
D2 ends at noon forum time on Friday 9th February. This is just under 7 hours from now.

[faust]

It's also funny that you are applying the same reasoning that you don't want to accept in the case of Awaclus for gkrieg's actions. With the exception that gkrieg actually has had some leeway to do anti-town action while we can pretty much be sure that Awaclus did only use pro-town actions.

[Haddock]

vote: faust just to register my read.  Not actually expecting that anyone will care.

I could go for gkrieg eventually, just to get a lynch through, I guess.  Can someone please summarise the case in simple terms?

[faust]

vote: faust just to register my read.  Not actually expecting that anyone will care.

I could go for gkrieg eventually, just to get a lynch through, I guess.  Can someone please summarise the case in simple terms?

This:

Anyway vote: gkrieg is the place to be I think.

Why?

You went to red and claim to not have done anything. That's super scummy; you could have easily used Cop and left it for scum. You claimed to not have had the cards to do what was asked of you, which is unlikely. You were in the upper half. You were on the awful Jelly wagon.

plus he hasn't done anything useful this game.

[faust]

Also gkrieg claims that he was on Jelly "to get a lynch through" when he explicitly stated a scumread on him during D1.

[Skumpy]

Alright, here goes nothing.
Vote: gkrieg

The last day of my postings was really me just playing devil's advocate, and trying to suppress frustration with allowing Awaclus to stick around. Yeah, the explanation for the night actions is just too iffy. I could say a lot more, but it's all been said already. I'm gonna get scumread hard for this vote - that's OK, just playin' my game over here. Not sure on the alignment, but I give this lynch a much better shot than Cheesy.

L-1

[EFHW]

vote: Awaclus

Really?

This is ridiculous.

I actually was sheeping you! The gkrieg wagon was looking scummy to me. Catching up before switching.

[faust]

vote: Awaclus

Really?

This is ridiculous.

I actually was sheeping you! The gkrieg wagon was looking scummy to me. Catching up before switching.

I was only voting Awaclus because his story didn't match up with public info. You voted after that was clarified...

[EFHW]

Now I'm caught up. vote: gkrieg

[faust]

Now I'm caught up. vote: gkrieg

Caught up & ready to hammer apperently...

[faust]

Well, it was going to happen, but that vote is seriously weird.

[EFHW]

vote: Awaclus

Really?

This is ridiculous.

I actually was sheeping you! The gkrieg wagon was looking scummy to me. Catching up before switching.

I was only voting Awaclus because his story didn't match up with public info. You voted after that was clarified...

I thought there was also some value in keeping both wagons going a bit longer. It did result in a much clarified case on gkrieg.

PPE Were we waiting for something?

[faust]

vote: Awaclus

Really?

This is ridiculous.

I actually was sheeping you! The gkrieg wagon was looking scummy to me. Catching up before switching.

I was only voting Awaclus because his story didn't match up with public info. You voted after that was clarified...

I thought there was also some value in keeping both wagons going a bit longer. It did result in a much clarified case on gkrieg.

PPE Were we waiting for something?

Not really. You just seem very different from this:

Do we need to last minute switch? I've only skimmed recent posts, but it sounded like there were thoughts about an Awaclus wagon.

CheesyJelly is not here to claim.

[EFHW]

And you thought that was fake. Since it wasn't,  it didn't occur to me to try to be consistent. The circumstances are different.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 2.final

gkrieg13 (7): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, LaLight, Awaclus, faust, Skumpy, EFHW
Awaclus (2): gkrieg13, Roadrunner7671
theorel (1): silverspawn
faust (1): Haddock
Not Voting (1): theorel

With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

[SpaceAnemone]

Gkrieg13 has been lynched! He was a scummy Mafia imposter crew member!

Good work, loyal crew! Your paranoid and reckless behaviour seems to have paid off, and you've rumbled a damaging spy! I commend you for ignoring all those plaintive messages for the HR department -- they're soft down there, not like you, adventuring off in space!

While you're high on the adrenaline rush, let's throw you straight into your next Space Phase assignment!

Player order for N2 is:
1: Iguana
2: silverspawn
3: faust
4: Awaclus
5: theorel
6: Haddock
7: LaLight
8: Skumpy
9: e
10: Roadrunner
11: EFHW

N2 Space Phase begins now and end at 0900 forum time on Sunday 11th February (about 48 hours from now). Please submit your card play in your personal QTs before this deadline.

D3 will likely start on the morning (forum time) of the following day, Monday 12th February.

Thread Locked.

[SpaceAnemone]

Reminder: the N2 Space Phase deadline is now less than three hours away.

[SpaceAnemone]

D3 will begin within the hour, as long as energy exist for your mod to complete all the actions...

[SpaceAnemone]

Good morning, crew! I can see that you're feeling quite wiped out after that second space exercise. Hmm... quite literally wiped out in in one case, I see. Well, I'm sure you're getting used to these unfortunate deaths by now.

Still, it saddens me to tell you that after the ship's automated autopsy on your mysteriously-dead crewmate, we have found that Skumpy was Townie. Yes, the ship have some pretty perceptive autopsy tools up there!

As before, you've now got an earth-week to recover before going on another unsupervised mission. How's all that studying going? I hope you're not spending so much time arguing that you're neglecting your space-survival skills? If you all die, it's really not very good for the ship or our mission, you know...
   

Vote Count 3.0

Not voting (10): Haddock, faust, EFHW, LaLight, theorel, Iguana, silverspawn, Awaclus, e, Roadrunner

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D3 begins now, and ends at 9am forum time on Monday 19th February.

Red pool: 0
White pool: 0
Blue pool: 3

Thread Unlocked!

[LaLight]

vote: silver

can someone count the probability of being in the top half twice in a row? Also being on town wagon and not being on scum wagon. Almost too scummy, but I can see silver do something like that

[LaLight]

what is an energy distribution?

[LaLight]

silver, can you please say, where were you color-wise the whole turn?

[faust]

Nice kill. I was starting to feel scummy on the Skump.

[faust]

We're going to need to install some sort of plan today that prevents scum from using the Secret Hatch. It probably involves sending some cards around. I have ideas.

[LaLight]

also I wouldn't be surprised at faust/silver/x team

[LaLight]

We're going to need to install some sort of plan today that prevents scum from using the Secret Hatch. It probably involves sending some cards around. I have ideas.

Scum may choose to play this room’s C action with “Secret Hatch” as the target. If at least Y+1 C cards are played this way during one Space Phase, the scum NK can reach players on the lower deck during this night's Mafia-Game Action Resolution Phase, where Y is the number of scum in the game.

I don't get it. Scum must play 4 cards in such a way? How?

[LaLight]

ah, one player can play more than 1 card at night this way... if they do that, we can just catch them on claiming? oO seems like unnecessary complication I'd say

[faust]

ah, one player can play more than 1 card at night this way... if they do that, we can just catch them on claiming? oO seems like unnecessary complication I'd say

Well, this may shock you, but scum can actually lie.

[faust]

also I wouldn't be surprised at faust/silver/x team

Me? Seriously? What else do I need to do?

[LaLight]

ah, one player can play more than 1 card at night this way... if they do that, we can just catch them on claiming? oO seems like unnecessary complication I'd say

Well, this may shock you, but scum can actually lie.

Yeah, but there's so much ways we can catch them not doing stuff they claimed to do.

[faust]

ah, one player can play more than 1 card at night this way... if they do that, we can just catch them on claiming? oO seems like unnecessary complication I'd say

Well, this may shock you, but scum can actually lie.

Yeah, but there's so much ways we can catch them not doing stuff they claimed to do.

Not if we're at MyLo. Which is likely to happen soon.

[LaLight]

also I wouldn't be surprised at faust/silver/x team

Me? Seriously? What else do I need to do?

I played games with you where you were overwhelmingly townie (NM with you and Dylan comes to my mind first). To believe you're town I'm sorry but I need to see your flip. Especially given that you live for the third day in a row! Anyway now I can't imagine the world where silver is town, so I'm not super eager to lynch you.

[LaLight]

ah, one player can play more than 1 card at night this way... if they do that, we can just catch them on claiming? oO seems like unnecessary complication I'd say

Well, this may shock you, but scum can actually lie.

Yeah, but there's so much ways we can catch them not doing stuff they claimed to do.

Not if we're at MyLo. Which is likely to happen soon.

I'd say we claim today all the actions and tomorro as well, and every day. So we can see who is where. This won't hurt town (especially if we're all on lower deck), but will hurt scum and chain their hands.

[LaLight]

also, by the way, I saw the request for replacement in Mafia Hub. Interesting

[faust]

also I wouldn't be surprised at faust/silver/x team

Me? Seriously? What else do I need to do?

I played games with you where you were overwhelmingly townie (NM with you and Dylan comes to my mind first). To believe you're town I'm sorry but I need to see your flip. Especially given that you live for the third day in a row! Anyway now I can't imagine the world where silver is town, so I'm not super eager to lynch you.

Ironic that I was excited for this game precisely because it had mechanics that I can use to not die early.

By the way I can claim my N1 stuffs now. I tried for Tracker, then RB, then went down. Both my actions failed, so that confirms EFHW's tracking.

[LaLight]

Also, if anyone did a print out, you should wait with that

[faust]

Also, if anyone did a print out, you should wait with that

It may get difficult to claim by actions. I think we should just do an order. Roughly off-wagon folks first and then on-wagon.

[LaLight]

Also, if anyone did a print out, you should wait with that

It may get difficult to claim by actions. I think we should just do an order. Roughly off-wagon folks first and then on-wagon.

silverspawn
theorel
Haddock
Roadrunner7671
iguanaiguana
faust
Awaclus
LaLight
Skumpy
2.71828.....
EFHW

[LaLight]

on-wagon by order -> off-wagon by order

[LaLight]

on-wagon by order -> off-wagon by order

Other way around though

[faust]

That works for me.

[faust]

Except we might have to wait a while for Skumpy's claim...

[LaLight]

Except we might have to wait a while for Skumpy's claim...

uh oh, i didn't notice

[iguanaiguana]

I actually read this game for basically the first time!  Now I have some things to share and no time to share them. Isn't life great?

[SpaceAnemone]

what is an energy distribution?

Red pool: 0
White pool: 0
Blue pool: 3

[Awaclus]

can someone count the probability of being in the top half twice in a row?

Isn't it roughly 25%?

[LaLight]

can someone count the probability of being in the top half twice in a row?

Isn't it roughly 25%?

yeah, but given that scum can always be there, it becomes more complicated. Like,what if all 4 scums were there both nights? (Excluding gkrieg on N2 obv.). What if 3? What if 2? How probable is it to end up in the top half twice for a town player?

[theorel]

I think it's highly unlikely that scum in the top half N1 requested to be in the top half N2...because it looks suspicious, and scum generally prefers not to look suspicious.  That doesn't mean that scum didn't end up in the top half, but if scum requested to be in the top half, likely they were in the bottom half before.  There's a reasonably good chance that scum didn't request being in the top half at all, given how hard it was pressed yesterday.

Players who were top half both nights are myself, silver, and Awaclus.  Players who switched into top half are faust and iguana.

How much detail do we want people to claim?  Like, I can claim actions but not results, claim some results?

What is ship status also?

[LaLight]

I think it's highly unlikely that scum in the top half N1 requested to be in the top half N2...because it looks suspicious, and scum generally prefers not to look suspicious.  That doesn't mean that scum didn't end up in the top half, but if scum requested to be in the top half, likely they were in the bottom half before.  There's a reasonably good chance that scum didn't request being in the top half at all, given how hard it was pressed yesterday.

Players who were top half both nights are myself, silver, and Awaclus.  Players who switched into top half are faust and iguana.

How much detail do we want people to claim?  Like, I can claim actions but not results, claim some results?

What is ship status also?

I can’t find what is the ship status...

[LaLight]

I think it's highly unlikely that scum in the top half N1 requested to be in the top half N2...because it looks suspicious, and scum generally prefers not to look suspicious.  That doesn't mean that scum didn't end up in the top half, but if scum requested to be in the top half, likely they were in the bottom half before.  There's a reasonably good chance that scum didn't request being in the top half at all, given how hard it was pressed yesterday.

Players who were top half both nights are myself, silver, and Awaclus.  Players who switched into top half are faust and iguana.

How much detail do we want people to claim?  Like, I can claim actions but not results, claim some results?

What is ship status also?

I feel like scum requested being in top half at least one night because i ended up in the bottom twice. And not only me i think

[faust]

How much detail do we want people to claim?  Like, I can claim actions but not results, claim some results?

I want full claims.

[LaLight]

How much detail do we want people to claim?  Like, I can claim actions but not results, claim some results?

I want full claims.

I would prefer two rounds i think. First I say I tracked someone and after everyone said what they did i say who i tracked

[faust]

How much detail do we want people to claim?  Like, I can claim actions but not results, claim some results?

I want full claims.

I would prefer two rounds i think. First I say I tracked someone and after everyone said what they did i say who i tracked

That wastes too much time and I don't see that it gives much of a benefit.

[LaLight]

How much detail do we want people to claim?  Like, I can claim actions but not results, claim some results?

I want full claims.

I would prefer two rounds i think. First I say I tracked someone and after everyone said what they did i say who i tracked

That wastes too much time and I don't see that it gives much of a benefit.

Obv benefit is scum won’t claim things based on previous claims

[LaLight]

How much detail do we want people to claim?  Like, I can claim actions but not results, claim some results?

I want full claims.

I would prefer two rounds i think. First I say I tracked someone and after everyone said what they did i say who i tracked

That wastes too much time and I don't see that it gives much of a benefit.

And it doesn’t waste too much time because not everyone has some results to claim i believe

[theorel]

I feel like both of my results are most valuable when scum doesn't know what's on them as compared to when scum does know.  That said some information is probably worthwhile...
I'm supposed to claim second, which is fine, whatever...
I think the most important thing that will be helpful is: I got a status printout.  There were no cop switches, there is at least 1 cop result.  I'm pretty sure based on energy that I got the only one.

I also did zone monitoring, so I know which color someone was at some point during the night (it's not hard to figure out when).  I feel like saving the results and target of that action for later is more valuable for town, because it hinders scum from fake-claiming.

[LaLight]

I feel like both of my results are most valuable when scum doesn't know what's on them as compared to when scum does know.  That said some information is probably worthwhile...
I'm supposed to claim second, which is fine, whatever...
I think the most important thing that will be helpful is: I got a status printout.  There were no cop switches, there is at least 1 cop result.  I'm pretty sure based on energy that I got the only one.

I also did zone monitoring, so I know which color someone was at some point during the night (it's not hard to figure out when).  I feel like saving the results and target of that action for later is more valuable for town, because it hinders scum from fake-claiming.

That’s exactly what i meant when i was talking about 2 rounds

[theorel]

I'm pretty sure based on energy that I got the only one.

Meh, downgrade that.  It's possible based on energy that I got the only print-out.

[silverspawn]

faust is town. I Weak-Visitored him again and this time it actually went through.

[silverspawn]

I really hope that in the counter-factual world where he is not town, you guys are smart enough that I chose him again since I didn't get to saying it explicitly.

[silverspawn]

ok now brb reading the thread...

[silverspawn]

*to know that I chose him again

[faust]

faust is town. I Weak-Visitored him again and this time it actually went through.

Ok, great. Now claim the rest of your actions, and also explicitly what you did N1.

[silverspawn]

Eh. Fine.

So I didn't have a lift in the first 6 cards. I went blue, nothing, WV faust.

And N2 I went WV faust, lift, Zone Monitor Skumpy.

[LaLight]

Eh. Fine.

So I didn't have a lift in the first 6 cards. I went blue, nothing, WV faust.

And N2 I went WV faust, lift, Zone Monitor Skumpy.

Convenient.

[silverspawn]

LaLight is currently throwing suspicion on two town players so he should definitely not determine an order.

[silverspawn]

Convenient.

Why is that convenient?

[LaLight]

Convenient.

Why is that convenient?

On N1 you could kill instead of "nothing". Deck Monitoring of Skumpy is convenient.

I can see two possibilities:

1) faust and SS being in a scum-team making a bold move;
2) SS not WVing faust;

Bonus possibility: SS WVing faust while his scumbuddy RBed him.

[silverspawn]

to explain the skumpy target, I had it in my head that zone monitoring was target-less and only chose someone in case I accidentally cop-switched them if the lift failed. I was also debating between zone monitoring and refilling but in the end went with monitoring.

[silverspawn]

Convenient.

Why is that convenient?

On N1 you could kill instead of "nothing". Deck Monitoring of Skumpy is convenient.

I can see two possibilities:

1) faust and SS being in a scum-team making a bold move;
2) SS not WVing faust;

Bonus possibility: SS WVing faust while his scumbuddy RBed him.

it's called confirmation bias.

[LaLight]

Convenient.

Why is that convenient?

On N1 you could kill instead of "nothing". Deck Monitoring of Skumpy is convenient.

I can see two possibilities:

1) faust and SS being in a scum-team making a bold move;
2) SS not WVing faust;

Bonus possibility: SS WVing faust while his scumbuddy RBed him.

it's called confirmation bias.

Or it's called "Once in a hundred years LaLight has a correct read".

[silverspawn]

I had no prior model of how good your reads usually are, but they're wrong here.

I don't scumread you though fwiw.

[LaLight]

I had no prior model of how good your reads usually are, but they're wrong here.

I don't scumread you though fwiw.

Because you know I'm town?

[silverspawn]

Also skumpy was in the white zone. If anyone can confirm this, go ahead.

[silverspawn]

I had no prior model of how good your reads usually are, but they're wrong here.

I don't scumread you though fwiw.

Because you know I'm town?

Just like I knew faust was town yesterday?

[LaLight]

Also skumpy was in the white zone. If anyone can confirm this, go ahead.

well, on the first turn he was in a white zone, that's an open information, he started this turn from there

[2.71828.....]

faust is town. I Weak-Visitored him again and this time it actually went through.

Good enough for me. silverspawn and faust can be town for the day

[theorel]

Also skumpy was in the white zone. If anyone can confirm this, go ahead.

well, on the first turn he was in a white zone, that's an open information, he started this turn from there

But this is for the end of the turn...so it's saying he was still in white at the end of phase 2.  Which is useful if only because it means that he definitely didn't use a cop shot.

[EFHW]

I'm pretty sure based on energy that I got the only one.

Meh, downgrade that.  It's possible based on energy that I got the only print-out.

I have two, actually. I got confused and thought only one person could get a print-out each round, so I tried twice. Based on what I see there, I think the people who took actions can just claim. There isn't much need for complications. Once it was known there was a print-out, the likelihood of lying went way down. One of the people might want to wait to be last.

[EFHW]

Also skumpy was in the white zone. If anyone can confirm this, go ahead.

well, on the first turn he was in a white zone, that's an open information, he started this turn from there

But this is for the end of the turn...so it's saying he was still in white at the end of phase 2.  Which is useful if only because it means that he definitely didn't use a cop shot.

I'm pretty sure zone monitoring happens immediately.

"Clarification for Lower Red/Lower Blue C actions: if the target player is ahead of you in turn order, you will know where they moved to this turn; if they are behind you in turn order, you see where they ended the turn before."

[EFHW]

I'm pretty sure based on energy that I got the only one.

Meh, downgrade that.  It's possible based on energy that I got the only print-out.

I have two, actually. I got confused and thought only one person could get a print-out each round, so I tried twice. Based on what I see there, I think the people who took actions can just claim. There isn't much need for complications. Once it was known there was a print-out, the likelihood of lying went way down. One of the people might want to wait to be last.

By this I am referring only to claiming mafia-actions. Just things that would show up on the print-out.

[faust]

faust is town. I Weak-Visitored him again and this time it actually went through.

Good enough for me. silverspawn and faust can be town for the day

What about this makes you think that silver is town?

[faust]

I'm pretty sure based on energy that I got the only one.

Meh, downgrade that.  It's possible based on energy that I got the only print-out.

I have two, actually. I got confused and thought only one person could get a print-out each round, so I tried twice. Based on what I see there, I think the people who took actions can just claim. There isn't much need for complications. Once it was known there was a print-out, the likelihood of lying went way down. One of the people might want to wait to be last.

I see no reason to deviate from the claiming order. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your status printout.

[silverspawn]

... why are you okay with just using a claiming order from LaLight? Why not make up your own? At least put yourself last.

[faust]

... why are you okay with just using a claiming order from LaLight? Why not make up your own? At least put yourself last.

Must be the shortest time between creating an IC and discrediting it on record.

[silverspawn]

I'm just that good!

[faust]

I didn't know going into it that I was gonna be IC'd, and throwing stuff over in the middle of it seemed pointless. I'd prefer to have all the information quickly.

[faust]

I just thought to myself, we should have full claims of everyone's hands at all times during the game, included in the claiming order.

[EFHW]

faust is town. I Weak-Visitored him again and this time it actually went through.

Good enough for me. silverspawn and faust can be town for the day

What about this makes you think that silver is town?

faust has a point here.

[EFHW]

I'm pretty sure based on energy that I got the only one.

Meh, downgrade that.  It's possible based on energy that I got the only print-out.

I have two, actually. I got confused and thought only one person could get a print-out each round, so I tried twice. Based on what I see there, I think the people who took actions can just claim. There isn't much need for complications. Once it was known there was a print-out, the likelihood of lying went way down. One of the people might want to wait to be last.

I see no reason to deviate from the claiming order. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your status printout.

The main reason is not to get bogged down like we did Day 2.

[silverspawn]

ok then keep the rest of the order as is, but go last.

[faust]

ok then keep the rest of the order as is, but go last.

How about you claim your hand?

[theorel]

Also skumpy was in the white zone. If anyone can confirm this, go ahead.

well, on the first turn he was in a white zone, that's an open information, he started this turn from there

But this is for the end of the turn...so it's saying he was still in white at the end of phase 2.  Which is useful if only because it means that he definitely didn't use a cop shot.

I'm pretty sure zone monitoring happens immediately.

"Clarification for Lower Red/Lower Blue C actions: if the target player is ahead of you in turn order, you will know where they moved to this turn; if they are behind you in turn order, you see where they ended the turn before."

Yes, and given the rest of silver's claimed actions the zone monitoring happened in phase 3 implying that skumpy was still in white at the end of phase 2, since his phase-3 action would have happened after the monitoring.

[silverspawn]

ok then keep the rest of the order as is, but go last.

How about you claim your hand?

that just seems stupid. Why does that help anyone?

[2.71828.....]

faust is town. I Weak-Visitored him again and this time it actually went through.

Good enough for me. silverspawn and faust can be town for the day

What about this makes you think that silver is town?

I have been townreading him for a while. His interactions and all seem townie

[2.71828.....]

I don't really feel like claiming, but I don't really feel like arguing about it either.

N1 I did nothing because I forgot to.
N2 I successfully wiggled the mouse, moved red, and was unsuccessful in an attempt to cop skumpy.

[faust]

I was really not your turn by the way.

[faust]

ok then keep the rest of the order as is, but go last.

How about you claim your hand?

that just seems stupid. Why does that help anyone?

So noone can say "oh I didn't do this action that I was supposed to do because I didn't have the cards." Like, you know, the thing the confirmed scum said.

[silverspawn]

4 * (Red-A),  2 * (Red-B),  (Blue-A)

[silverspawn]

so ye I can't do lift or C and only one blue, but it's not like I need to use blue anytime soon

[Roadrunner7671]

4 * (Red-A),  2 * (Red-B),  (Blue-A)

You have 4 Red-As?

[silverspawn]

yeah, and that's after using one last night.

[SpaceAnemone]

What is ship status also?

It's all good, except for having a really forgetful ground control :-)

[2.71828.....]

I was really not your turn by the way.

Call me an agent of chaos.

Also, vote: theorel

[2.71828.....]

I can wait to claim my cards though.

[EFHW]

I just thought to myself, we should have full claims of everyone's hands at all times during the game, included in the claiming order.

Day 1 Skumpy tried to get people to say just if they couldn't do the actions for the top three people, and most people weren't even willing to do that.

[2.71828.....]

I just thought to myself, we should have full claims of everyone's hands at all times during the game, included in the claiming order.

Day 1 Skumpy tried to get people to say just if they couldn't do the actions for the top three people, and most people weren't even willing to do that.

That was D1. This is Day 3! A day for action.

[LaLight]

RR is in this game

[Haddock]

Eh. Fine.

So I didn't have a lift in the first 6 cards. I went blue, nothing, WV faust.

And N2 I went WV faust, lift, Zone Monitor Skumpy.

OK so you and I have done exactly the same things except targetting different people...

Don't want to claim who I monitored until there's a few more claims.

[faust]

Eh. Fine.

So I didn't have a lift in the first 6 cards. I went blue, nothing, WV faust.

And N2 I went WV faust, lift, Zone Monitor Skumpy.

OK so you and I have done exactly the same things except targetting different people...

Don't want to claim who I monitored until there's a few more claims.

Well Vote: Haddock then.

[faust]

Why have you not used a lift during N1?

[faust]

It's completely outrageous how by now we have 4 people out of 4 claimants that have claimed to have wasted an action.

[faust]

It seems very unlikely that it wouldn't occur to either silver or Haddock to sit there doing nothing when they could have Tracked or Roleblocked someone.

[Awaclus]

Eh. Fine.

So I didn't have a lift in the first 6 cards. I went blue, nothing, WV faust.

And N2 I went WV faust, lift, Zone Monitor Skumpy.

OK so you and I have done exactly the same things except targetting different people...

Don't want to claim who I monitored until there's a few more claims.

Well Vote: Haddock then.

Vote: Haddock seems good.

[Roadrunner7671]

Yeah I don't understand why people are doing nothing either. You always get new cards, so might as well try an action just to make sure.

Also I think my claim will make me pretty towny

[faust]

Yeah I don't understand why people are doing nothing either. You always get new cards, so might as well try an action just to make sure.

Also I think my claim will make me pretty towny

Well theorel is ahead of you in order, but given that he already did a partial claim I'd say you're good to go.

Of course any claim that happen between here and Haddock claiming his result will make Haddock look scummier, but that is his problem really.

[silverspawn]

It seems very unlikely that it wouldn't occur to either silver or Haddock to sit there doing nothing when they could have Tracked or Roleblocked someone.

You're still not making sense. What have you done with faust?

Each player may only gain one single mafia-game action shot (e.g. cop, doctor) per Space Phase (not per round). Subsequent attempts to gain any type of shot will be treated as a failed card action.

[iguanaiguana]

I copped RR. Townie. I gave Faust cards. Are we full claiming?

[silverspawn]

Great! I knew RR wasn't scummy.

[faust]

It seems very unlikely that it wouldn't occur to either silver or Haddock to sit there doing nothing when they could have Tracked or Roleblocked someone.

You're still not making sense. What have you done with faust?

Each player may only gain one single mafia-game action shot (e.g. cop, doctor) per Space Phase (not per round). Subsequent attempts to gain any type of shot will be treated as a failed card action.

You can certainly still try for both...

[theorel]

It seems very unlikely that it wouldn't occur to either silver or Haddock to sit there doing nothing when they could have Tracked or Roleblocked someone.

You're still not making sense. What have you done with faust?

Each player may only gain one single mafia-game action shot (e.g. cop, doctor) per Space Phase (not per round). Subsequent attempts to gain any type of shot will be treated as a failed card action.

You can certainly still try for both...

In particular let's suppose players 4 and 5 both happen to go for Weak Visitor...
If they both do nothing for 2nd round and weak visit round 3 we get only a single visit from 4.
But if they both try to weak visit on both rounds 2 and 3 we get 2 weak visits.
Similarly if scum blocks the round-3 action, but fails to block the round-2 action, then if you take a null action you achieve NOTHING, but if you try twice you actually get your action off.
In both of these cases the difference between trying once and trying twice is that we get an extra pro-town action out of trying twice.

People should be trying to get something out of every card play, especially if you have a glut of a single action-type (which you did).  There is abosolutely NO REASON for you not to have tried  twice night 1 for weak visitor.  And no reason for Haddock to do the same.

[theorel]

It's completely outrageous how by now we have 4 people out of 4 claimants that have claimed to have wasted an action.

Who's the fourth btw?  I know gkrieg, silver, and Haddock have all claimed to have wasted an action...not sure who else did.

[faust]

It's completely outrageous how by now we have 4 people out of 4 claimants that have claimed to have wasted an action.

Who's the fourth btw?  I know gkrieg, silver, and Haddock have all claimed to have wasted an action...not sure who else did.

EFHW got two printouts.

[silverspawn]

It seems very unlikely that it wouldn't occur to either silver or Haddock to sit there doing nothing when they could have Tracked or Roleblocked someone.

You're still not making sense. What have you done with faust?

Each player may only gain one single mafia-game action shot (e.g. cop, doctor) per Space Phase (not per round). Subsequent attempts to gain any type of shot will be treated as a failed card action.

You can certainly still try for both...

Why? If the blue actions are disabled, nothing works anyway and I lose a card. if the blue actions are not disabled, I do doctor instead of WV, which is worse.

[faust]

See what theorel said. Also, you could have tried for Tracker while still in Upper White.

[theorel]

It seems very unlikely that it wouldn't occur to either silver or Haddock to sit there doing nothing when they could have Tracked or Roleblocked someone.

You're still not making sense. What have you done with faust?

Each player may only gain one single mafia-game action shot (e.g. cop, doctor) per Space Phase (not per round). Subsequent attempts to gain any type of shot will be treated as a failed card action.

You can certainly still try for both...

Why? If the blue actions are disabled, nothing works anyway and I lose a card. if the blue actions are not disabled, I do doctor instead of WV, which is worse.

Why would you have to doctor?  Couldn't you just WV twice?

[silverspawn]

Why would you have to doctor?  Couldn't you just throw a card away?

I could...

[theorel]

...
Why? If the blue actions are disabled, nothing works anyway and I lose a card. if the blue actions are not disabled, I do doctor instead of WV, which is worse.

Why would you have to doctor?  Couldn't you just WV twice? (edited to: Couldn't you just throw a card away?)

I could...

I still don't understand why you would have to doctor.  If doctoring is worse than throwing a card away...why couldn't you weak visit twice, thus increasing the odds of getting the action you wanted (which is not equivalent to throwing away a card).  Why would you take the worse action, since it includes throwing away a card?  Why did doctor even come up here?

[faust]

Why would you have to doctor?  Couldn't you just throw a card away?

I could...

Please don't.

[faust]

I copped RR. Townie. I gave Faust cards. Are we full claiming?

So you would have to have been in Red at the start of your turn. Which leads to the question... what on earth were you doing N1?

[LaLight]

sorry for inactivity, work caught up on me. I still think silver's actions make little to no sense as town, call it confirmation bias if you want.

[silverspawn]

I mean, it would cost energy twice and I thought it would go through with just one

[Haddock]

Why have you not used a lift during N1?

I've already explained this.

I didn't want to use the lift so that other people could go down. I am not a high priority target for the kill because people thought I was scummy d1 so no-one was going to kill me. Better i was upstairs than other people who might have been.
Saving cards was strictly better than using it for no real purpose or potentially wasting the lift. You absolutely 100% cannot just unequivocally decide that passing a turn is scummy. I had good reasons and I've already explained them.

The fact that 4 people have done this should make you think you might be wrong about it, not that all 4 of those people are scummy.

[Haddock]

It seems very unlikely that it wouldn't occur to either silver or Haddock to sit there doing nothing when they could have Tracked or Roleblocked someone.

Waste.
Of.
Energy.

[Haddock]

It seems very unlikely that it wouldn't occur to either silver or Haddock to sit there doing nothing when they could have Tracked or Roleblocked someone.

You're still not making sense. What have you done with faust?

Each player may only gain one single mafia-game action shot (e.g. cop, doctor) per Space Phase (not per round). Subsequent attempts to gain any type of shot will be treated as a failed card action.

You can certainly still try for both...

In particular let's suppose players 4 and 5 both happen to go for Weak Visitor...
If they both do nothing for 2nd round and weak visit round 3 we get only a single visit from 4.
But if they both try to weak visit on both rounds 2 and 3 we get 2 weak visits.
Similarly if scum blocks the round-3 action, but fails to block the round-2 action, then if you take a null action you achieve NOTHING, but if you try twice you actually get your action off.
In both of these cases the difference between trying once and trying twice is that we get an extra pro-town action out of trying twice.

People should be trying to get something out of every card play, especially if you have a glut of a single action-type (which you did).  There is abosolutely NO REASON for you not to have tried  twice night 1 for weak visitor.  And no reason for Haddock to do the same.

At least you're explaining yourself.

I should have weak visited twice. That's true.
I thought that mafia action blocking did the block for the whole Night, so trying twice was pointless. Lesson learned.

[Haddock]

I copped RR. Townie. I gave Faust cards. Are we full claiming?

So you would have to have been in Red at the start of your turn. Which leads to the question... what on earth were you doing N1?

I can confirm that iguana was in the red zone on turn step 3.
So we have that at least.

Faust I assume you got those cards?

[Roadrunner7671]

I copped RR. Townie. I gave Faust cards. Are we full claiming?

Hey cool!

Might as well claim: I tried to weak visit which failed, then I moved downwards and put 3 energy to blue pool.

[faust]

I copped RR. Townie. I gave Faust cards. Are we full claiming?

Hey cool!

Might as well claim: I tried to weak visit which failed, then I moved downwards and put 3 energy to blue pool.

That is just about the scummiest thing that happened... of course it was RR.

[faust]

I copped RR. Townie. I gave Faust cards. Are we full claiming?

So you would have to have been in Red at the start of your turn. Which leads to the question... what on earth were you doing N1?

I can confirm that iguana was in the red zone on turn step 3.
So we have that at least.

Faust I assume you got those cards?

Yeah I have them.

[faust]

It seems very unlikely that it wouldn't occur to either silver or Haddock to sit there doing nothing when they could have Tracked or Roleblocked someone.

Waste.
Of.
Energy.

Oh man, we should have just not used any actions, then we'd still have full energy! How stupid we have been...

[faust]

I'd like to hear more claiming from theorel soon.

Otherwise I am up, huh?  I started in lower White, went to lower blue and did two monitoring sessions. I think with the massive towncred I have I don't need to say on whom until the rest of the claiming is done.

Awaclus is up next.

[Roadrunner7671]

I copped RR. Townie. I gave Faust cards. Are we full claiming?

Hey cool!

Might as well claim: I tried to weak visit which failed, then I moved downwards and put 3 energy to blue pool.

That is just about the scummiest thing that happened... of course it was RR.

How is giving us more energy scummy?

[faust]

I copped RR. Townie. I gave Faust cards. Are we full claiming?

Hey cool!

Might as well claim: I tried to weak visit which failed, then I moved downwards and put 3 energy to blue pool.

That is just about the scummiest thing that happened... of course it was RR.

How is giving us more energy scummy?

You didn't give us any more energy, you just grabbed some energy from our pool and put it in the least useful place possible.

[Awaclus]

I'd like to hear more claiming from theorel soon.

Otherwise I am up, huh?  I started in lower White, went to lower blue and did two monitoring sessions. I think with the massive towncred I have I don't need to say on whom until the rest of the claiming is done.

Awaclus is up next.

I moved to lower blue and did zone monitoring on EFHW and Haddock (in that order), and I can confirm that Haddock was in the blue zone just like he said.

[faust]

I'd like to hear more claiming from theorel soon.

Otherwise I am up, huh?  I started in lower White, went to lower blue and did two monitoring sessions. I think with the massive towncred I have I don't need to say on whom until the rest of the claiming is done.

Awaclus is up next.

I moved to lower blue and did zone monitoring on EFHW and Haddock (in that order), and I can confirm that Haddock was in the blue zone just like he said.

Also that EFHW was in white?

[Awaclus]

Oh, she also claimed that? Yeah.

[faust]

LaLight is the last to do the honors of claiming.

After that I think we need more hand claims so we can coordinate tonight.

[theorel]

I mean, it would cost energy twice and I thought it would go through with just one

What?  You know you can only get one action at night...but you thought that trying for a second one would use extra energy?  What world are you people living in?

The only thing that trying twice does is use an extra card.  It doesn't use extra energy, it doesn't block other people, it doesn't result in you suddenly getting a different action.  You are making all kinds of post-hoc excuses for why you passed an action.  Is it because you would have used doctor, because you thought it burned extra energy when your action failed, because you were worried about blocking other people, because you didn't have the cards?  What was your actual reasoning at the time, not what can you try to use to justify it to us now that it's established it was dumb.

People made terrible decisions night 1, which is why we didn't have a single cop shot, or potentially why we didn't have a weak visitor shot.  I don't think it's scummy that people did this, I think it's dumb.  That's why I unvoted gkrieg in the first place yesterday...because I no longer believed he was scum for making a dumb move because sooo many people clearly made dumb moves.

@faust: what more claiming do you want?
Meh, whatever..you're the IC.  Here's the full accounting...
Actions taken last night are all 1x.
Weak Visitor, Tracker, Cop, Doctor. 
Roadrunner was in Blue Zone during my round 3.

[theorel]

I feel like I missed a claim somewhere...who refilled central white?

[silverspawn]

My reasons at the time are what I just told you. I didn't see a reason to use up an additional energy.

[theorel]

My reasons at the time are what I just told you. I didn't see a reason to use up an additional energy.

Why wasn't this the first reason you gave today?

[silverspawn]

vote: Theorel

[silverspawn]

ok I have no idea what the first reason I gave today was. You're casting shade on my honesty which I don't appreciate. If I've not been perfectly consistent about something I've did a week ago then probably because I did it a week ago. unvote whatever. I thought something and then decided to make it two actions and sit out one. I think it was because of energy.

[silverspawn]

and yes, you're right, if you fail to get another mafia game action it doesn't cost energy. I didn't know that. Setup's complicated.

[LaLight]

I zone monitored silver, moved up and doctored faust

[LaLight]

Why is literally everyone scummy

[LaLight]

I look at the claims from the position “where would this person put a nightkill in their action chain” and everyone could do exactly that

[theorel]

For consolidation:
1: Iguana - Cop, down, pass
2: silverspawn - WV, down, monitor
3: faust - blue, monitor, monitor
4: Awaclus - blue, monitor, monitor
5: theorel - printout, blue, monitor
6: Haddock - WV, down, monitor
7: LaLight - monitor, up, doctor
8: Skumpy -
9: e - wiggled, red, cop
10: Roadrunner - wv(fail), down, monitor
11: EFHW - printout, printout, ?

Skumpy we know stayed central (at least according to silverspawn).
No missed claim, no one claimed to refill central white.  Also no one claimed the Tracker shot, and no one has yet claimed the doctor shot.
vote: Haddock, If he actually used the Blue lift Lalight would be blocked.
Lalight was not blocked by virtue of the fact that someone did in fact use a doctor shot last night.  Thus Haddock is lying.

[EFHW]

I feel like I missed a claim somewhere...who refilled central white?

That was me.

[theorel]

Sorry, Roadrunner did energy transfer not monitor...

[theorel]

I feel like I missed a claim somewhere...who refilled central white?

That was me.

And EFHW is also lying...so y'know 2 scum claimed is good.

[theorel]

Oh wait...never mind order of actions.  EFHW didn't have to do printout for the first 2 actions.

[theorel]

So, EFHW could you clarify order of actions?

[EFHW]

Updating the consolidation:
1: Iguana - Cop RR (town), down, pass
2: silverspawn - WV faust (survived), down, monitor Skumpy (white)
3: faust - blue, monitor (?), monitor (?)
4: Awaclus - blue, monitor EFHW (white), monitor Haddock (blue)
5: theorel - printout (1 tracker, 1 cop, 1 doctor, 1 WV), blue, monitor RR (blue)
6: Haddock - WV, down, monitor
7: LaLight - monitor silver (?), up, doctor faust
8: Skumpy -
9: e - wiggled, red, cop Skumpy (fail)
10: Roadrunner - wv (fail), down, transfer energy to blue
11: EFHW - replenish, printout (1 tracker, 1 cop, 1 doctor, 1 WV), printout

[EFHW]

I'm trying to work out how Haddock could possibly not be lying, but I can't.

vote: Haddock

[Haddock]

For consolidation:
1: Iguana - Cop, down, pass
2: silverspawn - WV, down, monitor
3: faust - blue, monitor, monitor
4: Awaclus - blue, monitor, monitor
5: theorel - printout, blue, monitor
6: Haddock - WV, down, monitor
7: LaLight - monitor, up, doctor
8: Skumpy -
9: e - wiggled, red, cop
10: Roadrunner - wv(fail), down, monitor
11: EFHW - printout, printout, ?

Skumpy we know stayed central (at least according to silverspawn).
No missed claim, no one claimed to refill central white.  Also no one claimed the Tracker shot, and no one has yet claimed the doctor shot.
vote: Haddock, If he actually used the Blue lift Lalight would be blocked.
Lalight was not blocked by virtue of the fact that someone did in fact use a doctor shot last night.  Thus Haddock is lying.

Or, y'know, someone else doctored and lalight is lying?

vote: lalight

[Haddock]

For consolidation:
1: Iguana - Cop, down, pass
2: silverspawn - WV, down, monitor
3: faust - blue, monitor, monitor
4: Awaclus - blue, monitor, monitor
5: theorel - printout, blue, monitor
6: Haddock - WV, down, monitor
7: LaLight - monitor, up, doctor
8: Skumpy -
9: e - wiggled, red, cop
10: Roadrunner - wv(fail), down, monitor
11: EFHW - printout, printout, ?

Skumpy we know stayed central (at least according to silverspawn).
No missed claim, no one claimed to refill central white.  Also no one claimed the Tracker shot, and no one has yet claimed the doctor shot.
vote: Haddock, If he actually used the Blue lift Lalight would be blocked.
Lalight was not blocked by virtue of the fact that someone did in fact use a doctor shot last night.  Thus Haddock is lying.

Or, y'know, someone else doctored and lalight is lying?

vote: lalight

Obviously this requires either skumpy to have done this or for scum to have used a doctor shot for some reason...

Admittedly this IS super weird.

Lalight, can you double check that your movements, etc actually went through?

Someone else might have doctored by accident also. If they got stuck in the lift or something.

space, can you confirm that there has been no mod error?

[Haddock]

It seems very unlikely that it wouldn't occur to either silver or Haddock to sit there doing nothing when they could have Tracked or Roleblocked someone.

Waste.
Of.
Energy.

Oh man, we should have just not used any actions, then we'd still have full energy! How stupid we have been...

Have you ever played space alert?

I have, a lot, and maybe it's making me too cautious about energy usage.

However, note that we're basically out of energy and it's going to take significant coordination to get it back, easily disrupted by scum.

I don't think I can be faulted for foreseeing this and trying to partially prevent it so we have more energy later when actions are more useful.

[SpaceAnemone]

space, can you confirm that there has been no mod error?

I am unaware of any unannounced mod errors at this time.

[Haddock]

Ok best theory I have is Efhw and lalight are both scum and tried to set up EFHWs printout thing for towncred.

Jeez that's weak.
But it has to be something like that. Unless someone has misread their QT

[Roadrunner7671]

Can someone explain to me why it was a bad call to move energy into blue? Because I was planning on doing something similar to that tonight if I was low in the order.

[EFHW]

Ok best theory I have is Efhw and lalight are both scum and tried to set up EFHWs printout thing for towncred.

Jeez that's weak.
But it has to be something like that. Unless someone has misread their QT

Why would there be a connection between me and Lalight here?

[Haddock]

Ok best theory I have is Efhw and lalight are both scum and tried to set up EFHWs printout thing for towncred.

Jeez that's weak.
But it has to be something like that. Unless someone has misread their QT

Why would there be a connection between me and Lalight here?

I think I literally just explained it.
If lalight says he went from lower to upper blue, he must be lying. The only motivation he has to lie about doctoring (or to doctor in the first place, as scum ) is to make your printout look good.

[theorel]

Ok best theory I have is Efhw and lalight are both scum and tried to set up EFHWs printout thing for towncred.

Jeez that's weak.
But it has to be something like that. Unless someone has misread their QT

Why would there be a connection between me and Lalight here?

I think I literally just explained it.
If lalight says he went from lower to upper blue, he must be lying. The only motivation he has to lie about doctoring (or to doctor in the first place, as scum ) is to make your printout look good.

It was actually my printout, although EFHW also has a printout...which means EFHW, Lalight, and myself would all have to be lying.

[theorel]

Hmmm...conspiracy-theory-wise.  It's technically possible that Lalight was never in lower blue, since I think the only reason for him being there is that he filled central uselessly yesterday. 

Awaclus should be able to confirm that though, I think.  For myself, I got a mod update that my attempt to fill central failed (because it was already filled).  So, assuming Awaclus is town, can you confirm that your attempt to fill central failed because Lalight had already filled it?

[2.71828.....]

Updating the consolidation:
1: Iguana - Cop RR (town), down, pass
2: silverspawn - WV faust (survived), down, monitor Skumpy (white)
3: faust - blue, monitor (?), monitor (?)
4: Awaclus - blue, monitor EFHW (white), monitor Haddock (blue)
5: theorel - printout (1 tracker, 1 cop, 1 doctor, 1 WV), blue, monitor RR (blue)
6: Haddock - WV, down, monitor
7: LaLight - monitor silver (?), up, doctor faust
8: Skumpy -
9: e - wiggled, red, cop Skumpy (fail)
10: Roadrunner - wv (fail), down, transfer energy to blue
11: EFHW - replenish, printout (1 tracker, 1 cop, 1 doctor, 1 WV), printout

So, the sum of things is that we have two people who have claimed to weak visit and like a million print outs that say only 1 weak visit happened

Haddock needs to claim who he weak visited

[2.71828.....]

Unless I missed that claim somewhere

[faust]

Ok best theory I have is Efhw and lalight are both scum and tried to set up EFHWs printout thing for towncred.

Jeez that's weak.
But it has to be something like that. Unless someone has misread their QT

Why would there be a connection between me and Lalight here?

I think I literally just explained it.
If lalight says he went from lower to upper blue, he must be lying. The only motivation he has to lie about doctoring (or to doctor in the first place, as scum ) is to make your printout look good.

It was actually my printout, although EFHW also has a printout...which means EFHW, Lalight, and myself would all have to be lying.

In which case we found the scumteam after Haddock is dead!

[faust]

There go my monitors. They are not very useful I fear.

I can confirm that Skumpy was in white at the start of phase 2, and also that iguana was in red at the start of phase 3.

[2.71828.....]

Red pool: 1
White pool: 5
Blue pool: 2

Updating the consolidation:
1: Iguana - Cop RR (town), down, pass
2: silverspawn - WV faust (survived), down, monitor Skumpy (white)
3: faust - blue, monitor (?), monitor (?)
4: Awaclus - blue, monitor EFHW (white), monitor Haddock (blue)
5: theorel - printout (1 tracker, 1 cop, 1 doctor, 1 WV), blue, monitor RR (blue)
6: Haddock - WV, down, monitor
7: LaLight - monitor silver (?), up, doctor faust
8: Skumpy -
9: e - wiggled, red, cop Skumpy (fail)
10: Roadrunner - wv (fail), down, transfer energy to blue
11: EFHW - replenish, printout (1 tracker, 1 cop, 1 doctor, 1 WV), printout

Red pool: 0
White pool: 0
Blue pool: 3

[2.71828.....]

Based on energy and assuming claims are accurate, we should have 1 red action, 2 white actions, and 2 blue actions.

[2.71828.....]

Based on energy and assuming claims are accurate, we should have 1 red action, 2 white actions, and 2 blue actions.

By accurate claims I mean energy moving claims. Which the only claim to move energy was 3 moved to blue

[2.71828.....]

Wait,  EFHW replenished

[2.71828.....]

Basically, based on energy and printouts, only two blue actions were taken. So yeah.

I think lynching Haddock sound pretty good right now. Did I miss it somewhere? Who did Haddock claim to visit?

[2.71828.....]

Also, someone should totally replenish white then move some energy to red then replenish white again

[2.71828.....]

Wait. Nevermind. I think I am wrong with all that thinking I just did. Now I have other thoughts. But first.... sleep

[faust]

Basically, based on energy and printouts, only two blue actions were taken. So yeah.

I think lynching Haddock sound pretty good right now. Did I miss it somewhere? Who did Haddock claim to visit?

Well, Haddock's action would have failed, so that's not really evidence.

Also unvote for now. We need to coordinate more. I have a plan, it involves everyone claiming their hand. So go ahead and do that, everyone.

[Awaclus]

I have 3x (Red-B), 2x (Red-C) and a (Lift-B).

[LaLight]

Lift-C Blue-A Blue-B Red-C 2x Blue-C

And vote: Haddock in mind after we plan the stuff. I haven't messed up anything.

[faust]

Lift-C Blue-A Blue-B Red-C 2x Blue-C

I assume the 2x refers to the Blue-C, not the Red-C?

[LaLight]

Lift-C Blue-A Blue-B Red-C 2x Blue-C

I assume the 2x refers to the Blue-C, not the Red-C?

Blue-C

[LaLight]

I also think I will be dead tonight by the way

[faust]

I also think I will be dead tonight by the way

I had hoped that you might be able to get a Commute. Seems not, too bad.

Let's wait out the rest of the claims to see if we can save you.

[LaLight]

I also think I will be dead tonight by the way

I had hoped that you might be able to get a Commute. Seems not, too bad.

Let's wait out the rest of the claims to see if we can save you.

There's also e on the upper deck though he may as well be scum

[faust]

I also think I will be dead tonight by the way

I had hoped that you might be able to get a Commute. Seems not, too bad.

Let's wait out the rest of the claims to see if we can save you.

There's also e on the upper deck though he may as well be scum

Well yeah but if Haddock flips scum you're basically an IC. e could still be scum and is thus less of a priority.

[LaLight]

I also think I will be dead tonight by the way

I had hoped that you might be able to get a Commute. Seems not, too bad.

Let's wait out the rest of the claims to see if we can save you.

There's also e on the upper deck though he may as well be scum

Well yeah but if Haddock flips scum you're basically an IC. e could still be scum and is thus less of a priority.

I mean if we create a plan protecting me

[faust]

4 * (Red-A),  2 * (Red-B),  (Blue-A)

Too bad that silver claimed inability to lift. I had a mind to send him up and Doctor you.

[Awaclus]

Too bad that silver claimed inability to lift.

silver doesn't even lift!

[theorel]

I have 3x Lift-B, Red-A, Red-C, Blue-A.  I might as well go doctor since you all want to lynch me anyways making me a bad night target.

[theorel]

Wait. Nevermind. I think I am wrong with all that thinking I just did. Now I have other thoughts. But first.... sleep

Yeah, Haddock's weak visit would have failed because of silver's...so you can use that to rethink everything.  Haddock still lied because he claimed to use the lift when it was unavailable (assuming Lalight is town, which still seems likeliest).

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 3.1

silverspawn (1): LaLight
theorel (1): 2.71828.....
Haddock (3): Awaclus, theorel, EFHW
Not Voting (5): Haddock, iguanaiguana, Roadrunner7671, silverspawn, faust

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D3 ends at 9am forum time on Monday 19th February.

(Edited to remove the "begins at" part of the deadline announcement)

[iguanaiguana]

My hand is 2 Lift-A, 2 Blue C, 1 lift C, 1 red A

[iguanaiguana]

Can someone summarize why Haddock is scum? Going on a flight,  will read D3 on it, maybe it will be obvious.

[LaLight]

Can someone summarize why Haddock is scum? Going on a flight,  will read D3 on it, maybe it will be obvious.

He claimed to use the lift he couldn’t possibly use as i used it right after him

[faust]

Can someone summarize why Haddock is scum? Going on a flight,  will read D3 on it, maybe it will be obvious.

Haddock, pos 6 in player order tonight, claimed to have used the blue lift in phase 2.
LaLight, pos 7 in player order, also claims to have used the blue lift in phase 2.
By lift mechanics, had Haddock used the lift, LaLight's lift would have failed. Thus one is lying.

[iguanaiguana]

also, by the way, I saw the request for replacement in Mafia Hub. Interesting

That was me. Didn't get one, here I am. Sorry guys.

[faust]

Still need hand claims by EFHW, e, RR.

And Haddock I guess if he wants, but there's basically no way around us lynching him, so meh.

[2.71828.....]

Blue-B x1
Blue-C x1
Lift-A x1
Lift-B x4
Lift-C x2

[EFHW]

Lift-A
Lift-B x2
Lift-C
Blue-B
Red-A
Red-C

[faust]

Lift-A
Lift-B x2
Lift-C
Blue-B
Red-A
Red-C

Wait, you also pass on taking an action? Have we ever heard what you did N1?

[EFHW]

Lift-A
Lift-B x2
Lift-C
Blue-B
Red-A
Red-C

Wait, you also pass on taking an action? Have we ever heard what you did N1?

I was in a rush N1 and accidentally typed a card I didn't have. So I only did two things N1.

[faust]

Lift-A
Lift-B x2
Lift-C
Blue-B
Red-A
Red-C

Wait, you also pass on taking an action? Have we ever heard what you did N1?

I was in a rush N1 and accidentally typed a card I didn't have. So I only did two things N1.

And what things?

[EFHW]

Lift-A
Lift-B x2
Lift-C
Blue-B
Red-A
Red-C

Wait, you also pass on taking an action? Have we ever heard what you did N1?

I was in a rush N1 and accidentally typed a card I didn't have. So I only did two things N1.

And what things?

Track and lift

[iguanaiguana]

Why did everyone go blue after many people said only scum go to blue? And how many lower blue people do we have?

I'm interested to see how Faust can prevent secret Hutchings because it seems like scum is maybe already there.

[faust]

Why did everyone go blue after many people said only scum go to blue? And how many lower blue people do we have?

I'm interested to see how Faust can prevent secret Hutchings because it seems like scum is maybe already there.

My magnificent plan will be released as soon as we have the last claim from RR.

[Haddock]

Hmmm...conspiracy-theory-wise.  It's technically possible that Lalight was never in lower blue, since I think the only reason for him being there is that he filled central uselessly yesterday. 

Awaclus should be able to confirm that though, I think.  For myself, I got a mod update that my attempt to fill central failed (because it was already filled).  So, assuming Awaclus is town, can you confirm that your attempt to fill central failed because Lalight had already filled it?

I like it. My vote for lalight stands.

[Haddock]

Updating the consolidation:
1: Iguana - Cop RR (town), down, pass
2: silverspawn - WV faust (survived), down, monitor Skumpy (white)
3: faust - blue, monitor (?), monitor (?)
4: Awaclus - blue, monitor EFHW (white), monitor Haddock (blue)
5: theorel - printout (1 tracker, 1 cop, 1 doctor, 1 WV), blue, monitor RR (blue)
6: Haddock - WV, down, monitor
7: LaLight - monitor silver (?), up, doctor faust
8: Skumpy -
9: e - wiggled, red, cop Skumpy (fail)
10: Roadrunner - wv (fail), down, transfer energy to blue
11: EFHW - replenish, printout (1 tracker, 1 cop, 1 doctor, 1 WV), printout

So, the sum of things is that we have two people who have claimed to weak visit and like a million print outs that say only 1 weak visit happened

Haddock needs to claim who he weak visited

Since my claim was literally saying "I did the same as silver, only after" I didnt think I needed to clarify that my wv failed.

I tried to wv Faust, as I said I would.

[Haddock]

Wait I didn't get a whole bunch of ppes .  Hold on.

[Haddock]

Lift-C Blue-A Blue-B Red-C 2x Blue-C

And vote: Haddock in mind after we plan the stuff. I haven't messed up anything.

No, you're just lying.

[Haddock]

Wait. Nevermind. I think I am wrong with all that thinking I just did. Now I have other thoughts. But first.... sleep

Yeah, Haddock's weak visit would have failed because of silver's...so you can use that to rethink everything.  Haddock still lied because he claimed to use the lift when it was unavailable (assuming Lalight is town, which still seems likeliest).

How do you get that I'm likelier scum than lalight?
One of us is lying. It's 50-50. If you have a read, explain it otherwise your probabilities are just misleading.

[Haddock]

(Red-A), (Lift-A), (Red-B), (Red-B), (Red-C), (Red-B), (Blue-C)

[theorel]

Wait. Nevermind. I think I am wrong with all that thinking I just did. Now I have other thoughts. But first.... sleep

Yeah, Haddock's weak visit would have failed because of silver's...so you can use that to rethink everything.  Haddock still lied because he claimed to use the lift when it was unavailable (assuming Lalight is town, which still seems likeliest).

How do you get that I'm likelier scum than lalight?
One of us is lying. It's 50-50. If you have a read, explain it otherwise your probabilities are just misleading.

I wouldn't consider them misleading, simply stated without reason.  But, here's the reasons that I believe Lalight over you:

I think you're likelier scum because your claim of actions was easily faked by simply at each point copying silver's claim.  You've never made a unique statement regarding your night actions, at each point you've claimed relatively soon after silver's claim (unless I'm misremembering).  I think you had no good idea of what you would do as town, and so have conveniently copied a town player's claims of activity.  That's why I think you're likelier scum than lalight.

There's also the fact that Lalight has actually done things at night, and you've done nothing.  And Awaclus can confirm whether Lalight in fact filled central white during N1...obviously if he says that it didn't happen then that would change my mind.  Awaclus: can you say whether your fill-central-white action failed?  (Recheck your quicktopic, since it might have been corrected after the start of today, as mine was).

[theorel]

@Awaclus: can you say whether your fill-central-white action failed?  (Recheck your quicktopic, since it might have been corrected after the start of today, as mine was).
(Asked separately so that it's harder for you to overlook)

[2.71828.....]

Wait. Nevermind. I think I am wrong with all that thinking I just did. Now I have other thoughts. But first.... sleep

Yeah, Haddock's weak visit would have failed because of silver's...so you can use that to rethink everything.  Haddock still lied because he claimed to use the lift when it was unavailable (assuming Lalight is town, which still seems likeliest).

How do you get that I'm likelier scum than lalight?
One of us is lying. It's 50-50. If you have a read, explain it otherwise your probabilities are just misleading.

I wouldn't consider them misleading, simply stated without reason.  But, here's the reasons that I believe Lalight over you:

I think you're likelier scum because your claim of actions was easily faked by simply at each point copying silver's claim.  You've never made a unique statement regarding your night actions, at each point you've claimed relatively soon after silver's claim (unless I'm misremembering).  I think you had no good idea of what you would do as town, and so have conveniently copied a town player's claims of activity.  That's why I think you're likelier scum than lalight.

There's also the fact that Lalight has actually done things at night, and you've done nothing.  And Awaclus can confirm whether Lalight in fact filled central white during N1...obviously if he says that it didn't happen then that would change my mind.  Awaclus: can you say whether your fill-central-white action failed?  (Recheck your quicktopic, since it might have been corrected after the start of today, as mine was).

I would argue all of these actions are alignment neutral.

[Roadrunner7671]

My cards are: (Red-C), (Red-B), (Blue-C), (Lift-C), (Red-B), (Lift-B)

[Roadrunner7671]

Can someone explain to me why it was a bad call to move energy into blue? Because I was planning on doing something similar to that tonight if I was low in the order.

[2.71828.....]

I need to reread LaLight/Haddock before I make any decisions. Until then, I like my vote on theorel.

It is interesting that we have contradicting claims and only Haddock is the default lynch

[2.71828.....]

Can someone explain to me why it was a bad call to move energy into blue? Because I was planning on doing something similar to that tonight if I was low in the order.

No one wants to be doctored? I don't think it is scummy.

[2.71828.....]

I also don't think staying on the upper deck is bad.

[faust]

Can someone explain to me why it was a bad call to move energy into blue? Because I was planning on doing something similar to that tonight if I was low in the order.

It takes energy away from red and white, which are both generally speaking more useful than blue.

[faust]

Unfortunately, my plan will have to wait to morning. Rough sketch: We block tonight's kill by playing lots of C actions in lower white.

[Awaclus]

@Awaclus: can you say whether your fill-central-white action failed?  (Recheck your quicktopic, since it might have been corrected after the start of today, as mine was).
(Asked separately so that it's harder for you to overlook)

Rechecked QT, all actions were successful.

[EFHW]

Wait. Nevermind. I think I am wrong with all that thinking I just did. Now I have other thoughts. But first.... sleep

Yeah, Haddock's weak visit would have failed because of silver's...so you can use that to rethink everything.  Haddock still lied because he claimed to use the lift when it was unavailable (assuming Lalight is town, which still seems likeliest).

How do you get that I'm likelier scum than lalight?
One of us is lying. It's 50-50. If you have a read, explain it otherwise your probabilities are just misleading.

But someone did use doctor.

[theorel]

vote: Lalight then.

So, to clarify this:
Lalight claimed as N1 action: refilled central pool+went to Blue.
This implies Lalight filled central pool in round 2 of night 1.
Player order for N1 is:
1: Awaclus
2: Skumpy
3: theorel
4: gkrieg
5: silverspawn
6: Haddock
7: EFHW
8: faust
9: mcmcsalot
10: e
11: Iguana
12: LaLight
13: Roadrunner

So, between Lalight in round 2 and awaclus in round 3, the only person to act was Roadrunner.
Roadrunner claimed his N1 actions were:

I took two unsuccessful actions and moved bluewards

Roadrunner is town from iguana's investigation.
So, the central pool, if filled by lalight would still be full during Awaclus' turn.
Now my initial belief was that this was meaningless (I was informed as of N1 that all my actions were successful).  But I was updated after this last night that my round 3 action should have failed.  It is possible that space clarified this for me and not awaclus, but that seems highly unlikely, and hopefully will be corrected before we lynch lalight if it's the case.

This means that lalight is now contradicting 2 players instead of 1, so hence the vote change.  It's possible I'm missing something here, and am open to someone pointing it out.  But this seems relatively clear-cut from my perspective...I don't think that awaclus would hang himself out to dry for Haddock in this case.

[faust]

Well I think Haddock - iguana - RR is not an unreasonable scumteam... but it does seem weird.

On the other hand, I can think of not many reasons for scum to use a Doctor shot there.

[faust]

Okay, so what's going to happen tonight is (this is assuming we lynch scum; I'll post a mislynch plan later).

I move to lower White and play 2 Cs.
theorel moves to lower white and plays 1 C.
Whichever of LaLight/Haddock is alive moves to lower white and plays 1 C.
EFHW moves to lower white and plays 1 C.
Awaclus moves to lower white and plays 1 C.
RR moves to lower white and plays 1 C.

These are 7 Cs. In order for the NK to go through, two players from here must be scum (or I am scum), which makes all the others ICs.

Other actions should include:
- the first player who is able refills the central pool
- the first player after that who is able transfers to red
- silver moves to lower red and sends cards to one of his top 3 townreads.

[faust]

Oh and just in case theorel is lying scum:

Would a refill pool action count as failed if it is used at a time where the pool is already filled to maximum capacity?

[EFHW]

vote: Lalight then.

So, to clarify this:
Lalight claimed as N1 action: refilled central pool+went to Blue.
This implies Lalight filled central pool in round 2 of night 1.
Player order for N1 is:
1: Awaclus
2: Skumpy
3: theorel
4: gkrieg
5: silverspawn
6: Haddock
7: EFHW
8: faust
9: mcmcsalot
10: e
11: Iguana
12: LaLight
13: Roadrunner

So, between Lalight in round 2 and awaclus in round 3, the only person to act was Roadrunner.
Roadrunner claimed his N1 actions were:

I took two unsuccessful actions and moved bluewards

Roadrunner is town from iguana's investigation.
So, the central pool, if filled by lalight would still be full during Awaclus' turn.
Now my initial belief was that this was meaningless (I was informed as of N1 that all my actions were successful).  But I was updated after this last night that my round 3 action should have failed.  It is possible that space clarified this for me and not awaclus, but that seems highly unlikely, and hopefully will be corrected before we lynch lalight if it's the case.

This means that lalight is now contradicting 2 players instead of 1, so hence the vote change.  It's possible I'm missing something here, and am open to someone pointing it out.  But this seems relatively clear-cut from my perspective...I don't think that awaclus would hang himself out to dry for Haddock in this case.

Why are you so sure Awaclus is town? You also don't account for the dictor action N2.

[faust]

I suggest people go reread LaLight/Haddock.

[faust]

There's also something to be said about just lynching iguana. We know he started today in upper red and he still did not provide any explanation for what he did there N1.

Plus if LaLight is town, this mean scum cannot kill him without outing Haddock.

I like that. Vote: iguana

If we do that, Haddock should go to lower white and LaLight should do whatever (but no weak visiting)

[faust]

Okay. If we mislynch today, the top priority is to just keep scum from using the Hatch. How do we do this? By forcing the scummiest players to do card draw.

This plan takes effect if we mislynch today.

We will send silver and Haddock to lower red card draw, iguana should do at least 1 card draw.

Now it gets complicated. We need to make sure to power red in time for e to use an action tonight. Some steps.

1. First one in player order of {me, Awaclus, theorel, RR} goes to lower white and fills the central pool IN PHASE 2. Hopefully this person is ahead of EFHW in player order. If so, EFHW then moves to lower red and pulls energy IN PHASE 2. The pool will be full by phase 2.

2. If EFHW is ahead of everyone in the list above, then instead she fills the central pool IN PHASE 1. Then she goes to lower red and moves the energy.

3. RR will go to lower red, unless he was chosen to fill central in step 1. In phase 3, he will move energy to lower red, unless one of the following is true:
- step 1 failed to execute AND e is either ahead of EFHW  or after RR in player order.
If this is the case, RR instead uses card draw.

4. e uses either Cop or Commute as soon as the red pool is filled.

5. LaLight uses Doctor on someone and goes down the lift.

[faust]

I tried to check that everyone can do their assigned actions. Please double-check for yourself.

For reference, these are all claimed hands, and positions on the ship:

silver: 4 Red-A, 2 Red-B, 1 Blue-A [lower blue]
Awaclus: 3 Red-B, 2 Red-C, 1 Lift-B [lower blue]
LaLight: 1 Lift-C, 1 Blue-A, 1 Blue-B, 1 Red-C, 2 Blue-C [upper blue]
theorel: 3 Lift-B, 1 Red-A, 1 Red-C, 1 Blue-A [lower blue]
iguana: 2 Lift-A, 2 Blue-C, 1 Red-A [lower red]
faust: 2 Red-A, 1 Blue-B, 1 Red-C, 1 Lift-C, 1 Lift-B, 1 Blue-A, 1 Blue-C [lower blue]
EFHW: 1 Lift-A, 2 Lift-B, 1 Lift-C, 1 Blue-B, 1 Red-A, 1 Red-C [lower white]
e: 1 Blue-B, 1 Blue-C, 1 Lift-A, 4 Lift-B, 2 Lift-C [upper red]
RR: 1 Red-C, 2 Red-B, 1 Blue-C, 1 Lift-C, 1 Lift-B [lower blue]
Haddock: 1 Red-A, 1 Lift-A, 3 Red-B, 1 Red-C, 1 Blue-C [lower blue]

[iguanaiguana]

You have mine wrong. I'm in upper red.

[iguanaiguana]

You are making this game not very fun to play :/

I have a VLA and it's been hard to follow along,  but when I get a chance to sit at a computer I'll look up what I did n1 and full claim.

[faust]

I copped RR. Townie. I gave Faust cards. Are we full claiming?

So I am to believe that for some reason you switched your claimed actions here.

[Awaclus]

Mine is correct.

[2.71828.....]

I will cop, since commuting is pointless as we are planning to block the scum kill

[faust]

I will cop, since commuting is pointless as we are planning to block the scum kill

Well, we will block the scum kill only if we lynch correctly, as I think trying to block it with 3 scum still alive will almost certainly fail, and we learn not enough.

[EFHW]

There's also something to be said about just lynching iguana. We know he started today in upper red and he still did not provide any explanation for what he did there N1.

Plus if LaLight is town, this mean scum cannot kill him without outing Haddock.

Isn't Haddock basically outed already? We don't have any explanation for the contradiction in his claim.

[faust]

There's also something to be said about just lynching iguana. We know he started today in upper red and he still did not provide any explanation for what he did there N1.

Plus if LaLight is town, this mean scum cannot kill him without outing Haddock.

Isn't Haddock basically outed already? We don't have any explanation for the contradiction in his claim.

Well the explanation is that LaLight is lying.

[theorel]

vote: Lalight then.

So, to clarify this:
Lalight claimed as N1 action: refilled central pool+went to Blue.
This implies Lalight filled central pool in round 2 of night 1.
Player order for N1 is:
1: Awaclus
2: Skumpy
3: theorel
4: gkrieg
5: silverspawn
6: Haddock
7: EFHW
8: faust
9: mcmcsalot
10: e
11: Iguana
12: LaLight
13: Roadrunner

So, between Lalight in round 2 and awaclus in round 3, the only person to act was Roadrunner.
Roadrunner claimed his N1 actions were:

I took two unsuccessful actions and moved bluewards

Roadrunner is town from iguana's investigation.
So, the central pool, if filled by lalight would still be full during Awaclus' turn.
Now my initial belief was that this was meaningless (I was informed as of N1 that all my actions were successful).  But I was updated after this last night that my round 3 action should have failed.  It is possible that space clarified this for me and not awaclus, but that seems highly unlikely, and hopefully will be corrected before we lynch lalight if it's the case.

This means that lalight is now contradicting 2 players instead of 1, so hence the vote change.  It's possible I'm missing something here, and am open to someone pointing it out.  But this seems relatively clear-cut from my perspective...I don't think that awaclus would hang himself out to dry for Haddock in this case.

Why are you so sure Awaclus is town? You also don't account for the dictor action N2.

I'm not sure awaclus is town.  I'm believing Awaclus + Haddock over Lalight.  Because it is more likely that a contradiction originates with 1 player than with 2.
In order for Lalight to be telling the truth, there are only 2 possibilities:
1. Haddock and Awaclus are both lying.  (so we have 2/3 of the remaining scum figured out) OR
2. Haddock, iguana, and roadrunner are all 3 lying (so we have the full scum team figured out).

Actually, on further reflection Haddock+iguana+roadrunner is impossible.  In order for roadrunner to have spent central energy night 1, he had to use either a top action during round 2 (which are all accounted for by awaclus, EFHW, and skumpy who would all be town in this hypothetical), OR he had to get a printout during round 2 which is impossible because the lift was occupied by lalight during round 1 (who is town in this hypothetical).

So, if lalight flips town then Awaclus+Haddock are guaranteed scum.  I am happy to take a 1-for-2 trade if offered.

The unusuality of lalight being scum is the doctor use, but scum could have used doctor as an attempted block of town blue actions (both weak visits and doctors).  Note that since lalight never filled central pool there is no need for lalight to have ever gone down a lift, so there is no contradiction with Haddock, even if lalight used the doctor shot.  Other scum could have used the doctor shot, of course.  Or scum could have used the Tracker shot, and skumpy could have doctored; in which case lalight took advantage of the situation because I claimed the night actions before lalight claimed.

I would certainly believe lalight over either awaclus or haddock individually because of that (as I already explained when I initially voted for Haddock)...but I don't think that scum-awaclus gives himself away to save Haddock knowing that he will be found out.  If this was lylo it would be different, but we have room for a mislynch, so that makes awaclus' claim bad play for scum.

It's still in the realm of possibility that awaclus' qt wasn't updated by space.  I think we should not push the lynch too fast, since it would be pretty terrible if space just didn't update awaclus in his qt, and this is all a big mod error.  Giving time for a mod error to be corrected seems best.  Maybe I should unvote so that we don't get a dumb quicklynch.

[EFHW]

There's also something to be said about just lynching iguana. We know he started today in upper red and he still did not provide any explanation for what he did there N1.

Plus if LaLight is town, this mean scum cannot kill him without outing Haddock.

Isn't Haddock basically outed already? We don't have any explanation for the contradiction in his claim.

Well the explanation is that LaLight is lying.

He could be - did he claim doctor before or after Theorel stated there was a doctor action? I think it was before, but I'll check.

[theorel]

There's also something to be said about just lynching iguana. We know he started today in upper red and he still did not provide any explanation for what he did there N1.

Plus if LaLight is town, this mean scum cannot kill him without outing Haddock.

Isn't Haddock basically outed already? We don't have any explanation for the contradiction in his claim.

Well the explanation is that LaLight is lying.

He could be - did he claim doctor before or after Theorel stated there was a doctor action? I think it was before, but I'll check.

He claimed 30 minutes after I claimed what the night actions were after faust kept prodding me to finish my claim.
My claim is 1213, his is 1220.

[silverspawn]

Yeah, shouldn't we lynch LaLight over haddock?

Plan's good. Everyone should follow it.

[EFHW]

Ok, yes I see that Lalight claimed doctor after Theorel revealed the print-out contents. Not super risky because so many people had already claimed, and Skumpy's action are unknown. Though for him to be lying he would have to have done the tracking and Skumpy the doctoring. It seems more likely that each of them would have chosen actions where they were. This would also mean Lalight lied about zone monitoring silver, or lied about being in lower white the day before. I don't have time this minute, but I'll try to track down if his movements are possible.

[EFHW]

It doesn't make a lot of sense that Skumpy would doctor, since he was a likely nk target.

[Awaclus]

So, if lalight flips town then Awaclus+Haddock are guaranteed scum.

Is this correct? In other words, do I know that LaLight is scum?

[theorel]

Ok, yes I see that Lalight claimed doctor after Theorel revealed the print-out contents. Not super risky because so many people had already claimed, and Skumpy's action are unknown. Though for him to be lying he would have to have done the tracking and Skumpy the doctoring. It seems more likely that each of them would have chosen actions where they were. This would also mean Lalight lied about zone monitoring silver, or lied about being in lower white the day before. I don't have time this minute, but I'll try to track down if his movements are possible.

This is why Awaclus' claim is super relevant.  If awaclus was supporting Lalight's claim of filling central, then Lalight would be more believable...but since awaclus is contradicting Lalight's claim, we have no reason to believe that lalight was ever in the lower section at all.

As additional reason to believe Lalight: I don't understand scum!LaLight's play here basically at all.  I mean scum!LaLight, doesn't have to contradict Haddock.  Contradicting Haddock guarantees Lalight's lynch after we lynch Haddock and he flips town.
But if Lalight is town, scum!Awaclus' play also makes no sense.  After we lynch Lalight and see a town flip, we'll obviously lynch both Awaclus and Haddock.

There is no scenario where the scum lies here make sense, but we have contradictory claims so someone must be lying.  And in either instance we have a scum player lying to contradict a town player where it's unnecessary.

The best reason I can come up with is that the scum player didn't notice and/or understand the contradiction when they made it.  In that case, Lalight seems most likely as liar, since Awaclus was clearly being called to claim for the express purpose of contradicting someone, it seems unlikely that he wouldn't notice that.  PPE: But then again, he doesn't seem to understand it still.

[theorel]

So, if lalight flips town then Awaclus+Haddock are guaranteed scum.

Is this correct? In other words, do I know that LaLight is scum?

Technically we require mod confirmation that filling an energy area that is already full results in action failed.  Right now, you have to take my word on it, since I'm claiming that I got an updated "action failed" for my third round action night 1 (which was to fill central energy).  I think the way I brought it up was town-like, and I don't see why the mod would not confirm it.  faust has already requested mod confirmation.  And I've suggested we not vote until we have mod confirmation.  I'll repeat the request, just so we're sure the mod sees it, along with a request so we're sure that if your action failed, you were notified.

Can we get mod confirmation, that attempting to fill a full energy area results in a failed action?
Can we get mod confirmation that Awaclus' Night1 action success/failure has been properly adjudicated?

[Haddock]

The unusuality of lalight being scum is the doctor use, but scum could have used doctor as an attempted block of town blue actions (both weak visits and doctors). 

This hadn't occurred to me since I'm a complete idiot.  Doctoring people to prevent WVing from working is a legitimate (though pretty damn hit-and-miss) strategy for scum - especially since it also prevents town from doctoring and uses up energy.

This also makes faust slightly less of an IC than he was.  Especially true if silver claimed on D2 that he would wv faust last night.  Did you do so, silver?  I can't remember. 

[Haddock]

This also makes faust slightly less of an IC than he was.  Especially true if silver claimed on D2 that he would wv faust last night.  Did you do so, silver?  I can't remember.

Doesn't look like silver claimed his potential Wv target on D2, as far as I can see, so scum would have had to get pretty lucky to doctor silver.  Making faust still pretty damn close to IC.

[iguanaiguana]

N1 I tried to track and failed,  then I went red and took the lift down. At the time my plan was to do card draw stuff in lower red the next night. I also thought correctly that the red lift might be less congested than the central lift.

When I got put on top of the list, I decided I should take advantage of the guaranteed ability to cop someone.  So I sent Faust cards, went back up, and copped Roadrunner.

[iguanaiguana]

I didn't claim the order because I didn't want scum to know I am on the top level. But since Faust is forcing everyone to mass claim, there's no point anymore.

[SpaceAnemone]

An "action failed" result is not generated in cases where a legal available card play merely results in a null action. For energy, topping up or moving zero energy is still considered successful play, and for mafia-game shots or targeted Space Pase actions (e.g. card draw), the Space Phase action is still considered successful even if a shot is won without a target having been supplied at the time the card was played.

[LaLight]

just as it happened. I consent with the plan and I will try to be as useful as possible. Obviously vote: Haddock, but the fact that Awaclus' and my claims don't really contradict doesn't mean Awaclus is necessarily town. I would advise lynching silver after lynching Haddock. If we would have protected ourselves from a night-kill every night, we won't be close to LyLo and I think the best idea here is is to prevent an NK every night nd lynch based on reads and interactions. I will look into Haddocks interactions at night.

[LaLight]

I mean Iam stupid, but I a not stupid enough to openly counterclaim someone who went just before me, as scum. I simply state what I did so cleverer men figure out how to use my cards best. I also doctored faust. how would I know if anyone else doctored anyone else, I think I wasn't the last to claim

[LaLight]

by the way, I didn't know doctor can heal Weak Visitors. Isn't Weak Visit happening before doctoring? Usually?

[LaLight]

I regret that no one checked me whether by tracking or copping or deck monitoring, because the question wouldn't stay at all if that was the case.

[EFHW]

I'm pretty sure I've caught iguana in a lie.

He said he got a result for his cop action but there was no energy in the Red pool N2.

vote: iguana.

Looking at the Lalight/Haddock question, Skumpy was confirmed in white at the end of round 2. So he did not use doctor, meaning Lalight is telling the truth.

looking at iguana/haddock/rr?

[EFHW]

An "action failed" result is not generated in cases where a legal available card play merely results in a null action. For energy, topping up or moving zero energy is still considered successful play, and for mafia-game shots or targeted Space Pase actions (e.g. card draw), the Space Phase action is still considered successful even if a shot is won without a target having been supplied at the time the card was played.

Does this contradict Theorel's claim?

[EFHW]

vote count please

[Haddock]

I mean Iam stupid, but I a not stupid enough to openly counterclaim someone who went just before me, as scum. I simply state what I did so cleverer men figure out how to use my cards best. I also doctored faust. how would I know if anyone else doctored anyone else, I think I wasn't the last to claim

Pretty sure I claimed after you, bud, ie. I caught you in a lie.  (Admittedly without realising I had done so)
So it's nothing to do with whether or not you would counterclaim anything.

[Haddock]

I'm pretty sure I've caught iguana in a lie.

He said he got a result for his cop action but there was no energy in the Red pool N2.

vote: iguana.

Looking at the Lalight/Haddock question, Skumpy was confirmed in white at the end of round 2. So he did not use doctor, meaning Lalight is telling the truth.

As far as I can tell, there is no reason for anyone to vote for anyone other than me and lalight.

Also how does skumpy being in white at round 2 preclude him from doctoring?

Also lalight could have done the doctoring and never been downstairs. This has been the assumption for the last ages.

An "action failed" result is not generated in cases where a legal available card play merely results in a null action. For energy, topping up or moving zero energy is still considered successful play, and for mafia-game shots or targeted Space Pase actions (e.g. card draw), the Space Phase action is still considered successful even if a shot is won without a target having been supplied at the time the card was played.

Does this contradict Theorel's claim?

I think it maybe contradicts awaclus's claim...?

[Haddock]

by the way, I didn't know doctor can heal Weak Visitors. Isn't Weak Visit happening before doctoring? Usually?

I actually don't know, I just assumed it would probably work, didn't think about it.

mod. Can doctoring save weak visitors?

[EFHW]

If Skumpy is in white Round 2, he can only have done white actions or a movement Rounds 1 and 3.

I'm truly surprised at your reaction to the news about iguana.

I was going to check about Lalight's movements. I'll do that next.

[theorel]

An "action failed" result is not generated in cases where a legal available card play merely results in a null action. For energy, topping up or moving zero energy is still considered successful play, and for mafia-game shots or targeted Space Pase actions (e.g. card draw), the Space Phase action is still considered successful even if a shot is won without a target having been supplied at the time the card was played.

Does this contradict Theorel's claim?

It contradicts what I was told in my quicktopic...I'm asking about it there.  But it implies that awaclus would not have received an action failed result (I just shouldn't have either).

@Haddock you definitely claimed before Lalight, as lalight was the last player to claim anything.


@EFHW: YOU GOT A PRINTOUT YOU KNOW THAT A COP ACTION SUCCEEDED.  (also there was 1 red energy in the pool, per beginning of night phase/late yesterday when Space corrected the energy readings)

[theorel]

The unusuality of lalight being scum is the doctor use, but scum could have used doctor as an attempted block of town blue actions (both weak visits and doctors). 

This hadn't occurred to me since I'm a complete idiot.  Doctoring people to prevent WVing from working is a legitimate (though pretty damn hit-and-miss) strategy for scum - especially since it also prevents town from doctoring and uses up energy.

This also makes faust slightly less of an IC than he was.  Especially true if silver claimed on D2 that he would wv faust last night.  Did you do so, silver?  I can't remember.

Oh, I didn't think about it blocking WV in that sense...I just meant by using up the energy.

[theorel]

So, since I muddied the waters based on bad mod-supplied info.  I'll try to clarify again:
Haddock and Lalight are both claiming to use the blue lift within 1 action of each other.  1 of them must be lying.

Reasons to believe Lalight (as far as I can tell):
-Haddock claimed first.  Lalight's claim unnecessarily contradicted Haddock's claim, which gives us a 1-for-1 trade.  Scum would not normally do this.
-Lalight does appear to have used the Doctor power (since we know a doctor power was used and no one else claimed it, there was also an unclaimed Tracker power used, and 2 people have claimed that Skumpy stayed in white, so Tracker is much likelier than Doctor for him)
-Haddock always claimed after silver to have done the same things.  (D2 he claimed blocked weak visitor after silver, D3 he claimed "I did the same thing" after Silver.  In spite of what e says, I find this to be alignment indicative as it is easier to lie by claiming "I did the same" then come up with legitimate townie actions)

Reasons to believe Haddock (IMO):
-He didn't exactly claim his actions, so it could be that Lalight did not realize he was contradicting Haddock.  Lalight seems to be somewhat uncertain about stuff (i.e. not realizing he was last to claim), so it is feasible that he didn't put enough effort into his fake claim to avoid the contradiction.
-He sounds more reasonable.

I do not believe that anyone else's claims enter into this conflict at this point.  Haddock talks a good game IMO, but the facts favor Lalight, so I think I'm going back to vote: Haddock.

I would like to hear what caused the error in my qt...but I don't think it's actually relevant to anything.  I apologize for all the confusion.

@faust: if Haddock ends up town, there's the four of us you have slotted for filling central.  Any opinion of what we should do if we're not the designated central-energy filler?

[Haddock]

If Skumpy is in white Round 2, he can only have done white actions or a movement Rounds 1 and 3.

I'm truly surprised at your reaction to the news about iguana.

I was going to check about Lalight's movements. I'll do that next.

No.
It checks at the end of the round.
Doctor THEN move, he's in white round 2.

Why are we not just asking skumpy to tell us what he did?

[faust]

I'm pretty sure I've caught iguana in a lie.

He said he got a result for his cop action but there was no energy in the Red pool N2.

vote: iguana.

Looking at the Lalight/Haddock question, Skumpy was confirmed in white at the end of round 2. So he did not use doctor, meaning Lalight is telling the truth.

looking at iguana/haddock/rr?

I thought there was 1 energy left in the pool.

[faust]

Why are we not just asking skumpy to tell us what he did?

Good plan!

[Haddock]

If Skumpy is in white Round 2, he can only have done white actions or a movement Rounds 1 and 3.

I'm truly surprised at your reaction to the news about iguana.

I was going to check about Lalight's movements. I'll do that next.

No.
It checks at the end of the round.
Doctor THEN move, he's in white round 2.

Ok no I misunderstood this.

[faust]

I would like to hear what caused the error in my qt...but I don't think it's actually relevant to anything.  I apologize for all the confusion.

Oh it's all good. At least you are Townie McTownzor now.

@faust: if Haddock ends up town, there's the four of us you have slotted for filling central.  Any opinion of what we should do if we're not the designated central-energy filler?

Well, I don't want to go into too much detail. Some monitoring never hurts. Having a status printout may be useful in case scum tries to Copswitch e. Doctoring is also an option.

Just, you know, don't Weak Visit. With one death we won't know if it's due to WV or just mafia NK.

[Haddock]

Wait, we still have to think about awaclus.

He claims that his refill action failed?

Haven't we just confirmed that that's impossible?
So either he's lying or it's a mod error.
In the latter case doesn't his thing still contradict lalight?

[faust]

Why are we not just asking skumpy to tell us what he did?

Good plan!

In fact I will make sure you can ask him soon. Look:

Vote: Haddock

[Haddock]

I literally just asked him.
Can we prod him? I haven't seen him.
Request prod on skumpy

[Haddock]

I'm pretty sure I've caught iguana in a lie.

He said he got a result for his cop action but there was no energy in the Red pool N2.

vote: iguana.

Looking at the Lalight/Haddock question, Skumpy was confirmed in white at the end of round 2. So he did not use doctor, meaning Lalight is telling the truth.

looking at iguana/haddock/rr?

A better response to this, which is another reason I don't like iguana voting based on this: how do you know the red pool was empty n2?
It could have been refilled then emptied again.

[Awaclus]

Wait, we still have to think about awaclus.

He claims that his refill action failed?

No, I never claimed that. My refill action was successful.

[faust]

I literally just asked him.
Can we prod him? I haven't seen him.
Request prod on skumpy

Oh man, that joke was not intended to be subtle. I guess neither is your attempted faketownslip.

[SpaceAnemone]

vote count please

As usual on Thursday nights, I'm in the same location as Haddock, and therefore mod stuff won't be happening till I'm home late tonight. Sorry!

[Haddock]

Wait, we still have to think about awaclus.

He claims that his refill action failed?

No, I never claimed that. My refill action was successful.

Um.

Ok yup I was just confused. It's the supposed failure (we thought) of your refill that incriminated lalight. No longer applies.

No worries, ignore me.

[Haddock]

I literally just asked him.
Can we prod him? I haven't seen him.
Request prod on skumpy

Oh man, that joke was not intended to be subtle. I guess neither is your attempted faketownslip.

It didn't read like a joke.

It read like a terrible vote on me for terrible reasons.

[faust]

vote count please

As usual on Thursday nights, I'm in the same location as Haddock, and therefore mod stuff won't be happening till I'm home late tonight. Sorry!

Can you whisper "SKUMPY IS DEAD" in his ear?

[Haddock]

Guh.
Fine.
The information we have about his n2 was presented as a partial claim. Which made me think he was still alive.

[faust]

It's possible.

Can you give a reason why we should not lynch you?

[Haddock]

I'm town.

That's a reason.

I have little else.
This is an impossible situation for me, but hell. If I have to be lynched for lalight to go down then fine. I'm too busy for this game anyway.

I just want to make sure we haven't missed anything so we know FOR SURE that lalight is scum.

Definitely no-one should be lynching me until space has answered all outstanding questions.

[theorel]

Just, you know, don't Weak Visit. With one death we won't know if it's due to WV or just mafia NK.

I'm just going to repeat this, so that no one misses it.

Regardless of what happens, no one should weak visit, since we're hoping to get information based on whether the nk is blocked.

[EFHW]

An "action failed" result is not generated in cases where a legal available card play merely results in a null action. For energy, topping up or moving zero energy is still considered successful play, and for mafia-game shots or targeted Space Pase actions (e.g. card draw), the Space Phase action is still considered successful even if a shot is won without a target having been supplied at the time the card was played.

Does this contradict Theorel's claim?

It contradicts what I was told in my quicktopic...I'm asking about it there.  But it implies that awaclus would not have received an action failed result (I just shouldn't have either).

@Haddock you definitely claimed before Lalight, as lalight was the last player to claim anything.


@EFHW: YOU GOT A PRINTOUT YOU KNOW THAT A COP ACTION SUCCEEDED.  (also there was 1 red energy in the pool, per beginning of night phase/late yesterday when Space corrected the energy readings)

Yeah, I looked at the beginning of Day 2 to see the energy and it said 0 for red. Now pages later I come across that there was mod error and there was actually 1 energy in the pool. Perhaps we could have a centralized location where this information is up to date?

[theorel]

I'm town.

That's a reason.

I have little else.
This is an impossible situation for me, but hell. If I have to be lynched for lalight to go down then fine. I'm too busy for this game anyway.

I just want to make sure we haven't missed anything so we know FOR SURE that lalight is scum.

Definitely no-one should be lynching me until space has answered all outstanding questions.

I believe the only outstanding mod question of any potential import is whether doctor saves weak visitors?

[EFHW]

Sorry about the false alarm. unvote. I'm planning to go back to Haddock but want to see a vote count first.

[Roadrunner7671]

I am happy to lynch Haddock and if everyone else agrees with Faust's plan I plan on following it. I don't think I'll have anything else going on tonight so might as well.

[silverspawn]

I'm not following the mechanics anymore. I'll just sheep faust.

[2.71828.....]

Perhaps we could have a centralized location where this information is up to date?

Yes, please.

Maybe edit the energy into the opening posts of D1 and D2?

It would be very useful reference for those of us with short memories.

[2.71828.....]

I'm pretty sure I've caught iguana in a lie.

He said he got a result for his cop action but there was no energy in the Red pool N2.

vote: iguana.

Looking at the Lalight/Haddock question, Skumpy was confirmed in white at the end of round 2. So he did not use doctor, meaning Lalight is telling the truth.

looking at iguana/haddock/rr?

And yeah, this was covered, but there was 1 energy in the red pool, only 2 attempted red actions were his cop and mine, mine occurred after his in order

[2.71828.....]

Also, still need to reread haddock/LaLight. Hopefully I will find time tonight.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 3.2

theorel (1): 2.71828.....
Haddock (4): Awaclus, LaLight, theorel, faust
LaLight (1): Haddock
Not Voting (4): iguanaiguana, Roadrunner7671, silverspawn, EFHW

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D3 ends at 9am forum time on Monday 19th February.

[SpaceAnemone]

Maybe edit the energy into the opening posts of D1 and D2?

Done.

[SpaceAnemone]

mod. Can doctoring save weak visitors?

A doctor shot protects the target from either a WV death or a NK death, but not both.

[theorel]

Okay, I got it worked out.  I'm just a moron.

Relevant rule is:

The A and B actions in each room may each only be used once in each of the three rounds of a Space Phase. Subsequent players attempting to use the same action will fail at the card action. (The card will be lost, but no energy will be drawn from the pool).

Worth noting that this applies to the energy as well...so we can't for instance fill central pool at start of round 2 and then refill it at end of round 2, we MUST wait until round 3.  We were messing this up all over the place when planning out night 1 actions (or at least I was)...I really wish I'd realized it earlier, we could have ended up with a better night 1 plan.

It may still be worth it for multiple players that act before EFHW to fill central pool (in case the other player is scum)?  Also, since you'll get an action failed result, you'll know whether the other player did so.  Assuming that Haddock is town, and we're acting on faust's alternative action set that tries to get energy to Red.  If Haddock is scum, then we're good regardless, and this is probably useless information for the moment.

[faust]

Note that on the other plan, it would also be neat if someone could get energy to red, but it will be harder as more people have other stuff to do.

[Haddock]

vote: Lalight then.

So, to clarify this:
Lalight claimed as N1 action: refilled central pool+went to Blue.
This implies Lalight filled central pool in round 2 of night 1.
Player order for N1 is:
1: Awaclus
2: Skumpy
3: theorel
4: gkrieg
5: silverspawn
6: Haddock
7: EFHW
8: faust
9: mcmcsalot
10: e
11: Iguana
12: LaLight
13: Roadrunner

So, between Lalight in round 2 and awaclus in round 3, the only person to act was Roadrunner.
Roadrunner claimed his N1 actions were:

I took two unsuccessful actions and moved bluewards

Roadrunner is town from iguana's investigation.
So, the central pool, if filled by lalight would still be full during Awaclus' turn.
Now my initial belief was that this was meaningless (I was informed as of N1 that all my actions were successful).  But I was updated after this last night that my round 3 action should have failed.  It is possible that space clarified this for me and not awaclus, but that seems highly unlikely, and hopefully will be corrected before we lynch lalight if it's the case.

This means that lalight is now contradicting 2 players instead of 1, so hence the vote change.  It's possible I'm missing something here, and am open to someone pointing it out.  But this seems relatively clear-cut from my perspective...I don't think that awaclus would hang himself out to dry for Haddock in this case.

So we're back to this, no?

If lalight filled the pool n1 then awaclus's action should have failed.
It didn't, therefore lalight is lying scum.

[Haddock]

Nope. I'm still misunderstanding.
Yugh. This setup is complex.

Anyway, we now have confirmation that scum do have good reason to use doctor. So can we lynch lalight please?

[theorel]

Okay, I got it worked out.  I'm just a moron.

Relevant rule is:

The A and B actions in each room may each only be used once in each of the three rounds of a Space Phase. Subsequent players attempting to use the same action will fail at the card action. (The card will be lost, but no energy will be drawn from the pool).

Worth noting that this applies to the energy as well...so we can't for instance fill central pool at start of round 2 and then refill it at end of round 2, we MUST wait until round 3.  We were messing this up all over the place when planning out night 1 actions (or at least I was)...I really wish I'd realized it earlier, we could have ended up with a better night 1 plan.

It may still be worth it for multiple players that act before EFHW to fill central pool (in case the other player is scum)?  Also, since you'll get an action failed result, you'll know whether the other player did so.  Assuming that Haddock is town, and we're acting on faust's alternative action set that tries to get energy to Red.  If Haddock is scum, then we're good regardless, and this is probably useless information for the moment.

I realized the additional impact of this is that only 1 player can pass cards per space round.  So, i.e. Haddock and silver can't both pass cards tonight.  I don't think we'll be in the situation where that would be needed, since we're lynching Haddock...but we should be sure not to plan to have 2 people pass cards in the same round.

[EFHW]

Nope. I'm still misunderstanding.
Yugh. This setup is complex.

Anyway, we now have confirmation that scum do have good reason to use doctor. So can we lynch lalight please?

You're using doctoring as a scumtell?

[Haddock]

Nope. I'm still misunderstanding.
Yugh. This setup is complex.

Anyway, we now have confirmation that scum do have good reason to use doctor. So can we lynch lalight please?

You're using doctoring as a scumtell?

No.

I'm saying: everyone is townreading Lalight because he did some doctoring (we think).  And that is emphatically not a scumtell.

[Haddock]

Dammit.

I mean it is not a towntell.

[Haddock]

Actually: scum have more reason to doctor in the early stages of the game than town do.

By doctoring, scum potentially prevent WV from working, which could clear one of them in an investigative result, and they get to deprive town of a potential doctor shot as an added bonus.

Town, on the other hand, don't get much benefit to doctoring early on: the chances of actually saving anyone are too small.

[Haddock]

So, actually, EFHW, yes, sure.  I think doctoring is a scumtell.

Obviously that analysis comes from an unusual perspective since I am the only one who knows for certain that scum!Lalight did some doctoring.  (Or at least scum!somebody, I guess it doesn't have to be Lalight.)

[2.71828.....]

I think utilizing doctor early could very well be a scum tell. Very small chance of success for town, easy way to confuse WV results.

And appear townie

[silverspawn]

agreed

[silverspawn]

in fact vote: LaLight I'm leaning towards that site of the equation

[2.71828.....]

Yeah, vote: LaLight

We have time, but it is the weekend

[EFHW]

I'm still leaning the other way. vote: Haddock

[faust]

That was a bunch of lazy votes.

[Haddock]

That was a bunch of lazy votes.

Hold on now.
All the votes on me are not lazy, but somehow anyone who votes for lalight, going against the big wagon, is making a lazy vote?
Nuh-uh, you're gonna have to do better than that.

[Haddock]

I'm still leaning the other way. vote: Haddock

Unannounced l-1.

What a game to have my first ever mislynch in.

[faust]

That was a bunch of lazy votes.

Hold on now.
All the votes on me are not lazy, but somehow anyone who votes for lalight, going against the big wagon, is making a lazy vote?
Nuh-uh, you're gonna have to do better than that.

Just
You'll notice that I also called EFHW's vote lazy.

I reread and it just turns out that you are scummier. These votes are just based on gut.

[LaLight]

I for one understand that there’s really nothing I can do to change minds. I claimed everything I have done, I claimed my reads and after my death by nk or lynch please, look at my reads.

[iguanaiguana]

I want to reread before I vote but I can definitely do that by deadline. Please don't hammer until then?

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 3.3

Haddock (5): Awaclus, LaLight, theorel, faust, EFHW
LaLight (3): Haddock, silverspawn, 2.71828.....
Not Voting (2): iguanaiguana, Roadrunner7671

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
D3 ends at 9am forum time on Monday 19th February.

[Roadrunner7671]

I have intent to hammer, but we also have close to 48 hours so I don't plan on hammering too soon.

[faust]

I have intent to hammer, but we also have close to 48 hours so I don't plan on hammering too soon.

Well are there important things left to discuss? We shouldn't weak visit, so no need to announce that.

[Haddock]

That was a bunch of lazy votes.

Hold on now.
All the votes on me are not lazy, but somehow anyone who votes for lalight, going against the big wagon, is making a lazy vote?
Nuh-uh, you're gonna have to do better than that.

Just
You'll notice that I also called EFHW's vote lazy.

I reread and it just turns out that you are scummier. These votes are just based on gut.

I am not scummier.

Their reads, whatever they are based On, are better than yours. So chill.

[Haddock]

That was a bunch of lazy votes.

Hold on now.
All the votes on me are not lazy, but somehow anyone who votes for lalight, going against the big wagon, is making a lazy vote?
Nuh-uh, you're gonna have to do better than that.

Just
You'll notice that I also called EFHW's vote lazy.

Actually you didn't clarify what you were referring to.
But of the 3 votes you could have been talking about, two were on lalight and one was a vote from Efhw who has clearly been leaning that way for ages; wrong, but hardly lazy.

[Haddock]

I have intent to hammer, but we also have close to 48 hours so I don't plan on hammering too soon.

Indeed. No hammers for the next 20 hours or so please. I would like to be around for twilight to post my reads.

Also.
Rr this is the first post of yours that I can remember in a while. Anything useful to contribute other than an intent to mislynch?

[Roadrunner7671]

Rr this is the first post of yours that I can remember in a while. Anything useful to contribute other than an intent to mislynch?

Not really. One of you and lalight have to be scum so it's not like I'm gonna invest my time in a silverspawn reread or something, and my night actions have been minimal and already claimed. I'm also pretty content to just try and follow faust's plan (and I definitely don't think I can think of one better on my own) so I can't really think of too much to contribute.

[Haddock]

Rr this is the first post of yours that I can remember in a while. Anything useful to contribute other than an intent to mislynch?

Not really. One of you and lalight have to be scum so it's not like I'm gonna invest my time in a silverspawn reread or something, and my night actions have been minimal and already claimed. I'm also pretty content to just try and follow faust's plan (and I definitely don't think I can think of one better on my own) so I can't really think of too much to contribute.

Perhaps something resembling a reason for voting me over lalight, other than "biggest and easiest wagon to join"?

[silverspawn]

I'm only about 55%/45% on LaLight, and if faust thinks Haddock is more likely I think there's little chance of it going anywhere else.

[silverspawn]

so faust is really the one who needs to reconsider in order to pull this around. I find it somewhat hard to believe that you can actually find LaLight townier.

[faust]

so faust is really the one who needs to reconsider in order to pull this around. I find it somewhat hard to believe that you can actually find LaLight townier.

Why?

[faust]

I'm only about 55%/45% on LaLight

I mean you are almost contradicting yourself here. Why should it be hard to believe that LaLight is townier when you yourself don't see much of a difference...?

[silverspawn]

There's no contradiction, the modest percentages are just acknowledging that the game is hard.

so faust is really the one who needs to reconsider in order to pull this around. I find it somewhat hard to believe that you can actually find LaLight townier.

Why?

Because a majority lynch against the target endorsed by IC!faust is unlikely to happen, practically speaking.

[faust]

There's no contradiction, the modest percentages are just acknowledging that the game is hard.

so faust is really the one who needs to reconsider in order to pull this around. I find it somewhat hard to believe that you can actually find LaLight townier.

Why?

Because a majority lynch against the target endorsed by IC!faust is unlikely to happen, practically speaking.

No I mean why do you find it hard to believe that I think LaLight is tonwier?

[silverspawn]

because I get the opposite sense, but I realize that's not a good reason

[faust]

I have intent to hammer, but we also have close to 48 hours so I don't plan on hammering too soon.

Indeed. No hammers for the next 20 hours or so please. I would like to be around for twilight to post my reads.

Okay, 20 hours have passed. Now can someone please hammer since I don't think anyone has more to say?

[faust]

Also I have no idea why Haddock needs to wait till twilight to post his reads...

[faust]

Remember the plan

[Haddock]

Also I have no idea why Haddock needs to wait till twilight to post his reads...

Because reads that are posted before someone's alignment is certain carry less weight

[2.71828.....]

Also I have no idea why Haddock needs to wait till twilight to post his reads...

Because reads that are posted before someone's alignment is certain carry less weight

I mean, post reads now and we know your alignment if/when you flip (assuming you get lynched)

[2.71828.....]

2 things that make me want to lynch lalight over haddock:

1) as soon as the contradiction came about, Haddock was immediately called scum and voted several times. LaLight wasn't really even pushed. If Haddock does indeed flip town, I am looking closely at that early wagon that developed very quickly and just kind of stayed on.

2) interactions to defend himself. Haddock hasn't been flailing. Haddock hasn't been upset. Haddock has just carried on trying to display valid reasons why LaLight is the scummier one to lynch.

[Haddock]

Also I have no idea why Haddock needs to wait till twilight to post his reads...

Because reads that are posted before someone's alignment is certain carry less weight

I mean, post reads now and we know your alignment if/when you flip (assuming you get lynched)

I don't trust human psychology enough for that.
People are more likely to listen to me at all once twilight happens and I confirm I'm town.

[Haddock]

Jeez, is someone gonna hammer me or what?  I'd rather be lynched than no-lynch here, at least that way we definitely get Lalight tomorrow.

[2.71828.....]

Yes. A no lynch would be bad

[silverspawn]

ok but this is purely a practical vote.

vote: haddock

stick to the night actions.

[Haddock]

Sigh.

Still town.
I did my best. No hard feelings.
Just lynch lalight for me ok.

After him, top scumster is EFHW.  Her approach to my wagon has been abominable.

Moderate scumreads on awaclus and roadrunner.
Iguana, Faust and e are null.
Theorel and silver are leaning moderately towny.

Good luck all.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 3.final

Haddock (6): Awaclus, LaLight, theorel, faust, EFHW, silverspawn
LaLight (2): Haddock, 2.71828.....
Not Voting (2): iguanaiguana, Roadrunner7671

With 10 alive, it tooks 6 to lynch.

[SpaceAnemone]

Haddock has been lynched. He was Townie.

Oh my.. please do remember that a crewed ship stands a 56.8% higher chance of returning a successful and profitable mission! Are you sure this rate of killing each other off is best for us all?

Well, while we've still got warm bodies on the Sitting Duck, here is your turn order for the next Space Phase:
1: e
2: Iguana
3: LaLight
4: Roadrunner
5: faust
6: Awaclus
7: silverspawn
8: EFHW
9: theorel

N3 Space Phase begins now and ends at 6pm forum time on Tuesday 20th February. Please submit your card play in your personal QTs before this deadline.

D4 will likely start on the morning (forum time) of the following day, Wednesday 21st February.

Thread Locked.

[SpaceAnemone]

Good morning, crew! What a welcome change, to see you all there looking so vital and healthy this morning!

In more welcoming news, we've just discovered that a freak photocopying accident means you've all been issued with a very unusual copy of the field manual "Hostile alien encounters: a survival guide", in which many of the even-numbered pages have been printed in an alternative order. Maybe your copies will be valuable some day! We hope it won't lead to too much confusion for you in the meantime. In the interests of updating your knowledge, perhaps we'll send a few updates through over the next few days.


Vote Count 4.0

Not voting (9): faust, EFHW, LaLight, theorel, Iguana, silverspawn, Awaclus, e, Roadrunner

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
D4 begins now, and ends at 5pm forum time on Wednesday 28th February.

Thread Unlocked!

[SpaceAnemone]

Energy distribution
red pool: 0
white pool: 5
blue pool: 2

Sensor show that all parts to the ship are functional.

[2.71828.....]

Hooray! No kill.

I think we shouldn't claim randomly. Fully willing to claim my actions at any point.

[Roadrunner7671]

Why is there no energy in the red pool?

[iguanaiguana]

Maybe no one put any in there, or maybe no one used any.

[2.71828.....]

Why is there no energy in the red pool?

I am also very interested in that question

[Roadrunner7671]

Why is there no energy in the red pool?

I am also very interested in that question

Yall be roleblocking me

[2.71828.....]

I also don't fully understand the results from my actions last night. Or maybe I don't fully understand the setup. Or something else happened.

[EFHW]

Why is there no energy in the red pool?

My qt said my pulling red energy action was successful. I assumed someone before me would have filled the white pool, per faust's plan.

[2.71828.....]

I am cool with faust or silverspawn coming up with a claim order. Let's do that, get it out of the way, then we can always lynch lalight like we should have done last night.

[2.71828.....]

Rather, done on D3, not last night

[2.71828.....]

I am feeling pretty confident about the game right now. We have a WV result and townie play from silverspawn/faust. We have scum!LaLight. I think EFHW is likely scum as well.

Theorel can be scum too. How many total scum are we supposed to have?

[theorel]

Okay, so faust's plan was:

We will send silver and Haddock to lower red card draw, iguana should do at least 1 card draw.

Now it gets complicated. We need to make sure to power red in time for e to use an action tonight. Some steps.

1. First one in player order of {me, Awaclus, theorel, RR} goes to lower white and fills the central pool IN PHASE 2. Hopefully this person is ahead of EFHW in player order. If so, EFHW then moves to lower red and pulls energy IN PHASE 2. The pool will be full by phase 2.

2. If EFHW is ahead of everyone in the list above, then instead she fills the central pool IN PHASE 1. Then she goes to lower red and moves the energy.

3. RR will go to lower red, unless he was chosen to fill central in step 1. In phase 3, he will move energy to lower red, unless one of the following is true:
- step 1 failed to execute AND e is either ahead of EFHW  or after RR in player order.
If this is the case, RR instead uses card draw.

4. e uses either Cop or Commute as soon as the red pool is filled.

5. LaLight uses Doctor on someone and goes down the lift.

So, Roadrunner should have filled White in round 2.  faust and awaclus and I were free to do whatever.
EFHW should have gone red and pulled it.
and then e should have copped in round 3.
meanwhile silver and iguana should have sent cards to someone.

@Roadrunner what did you mean by:

Why is there no energy in the red pool?

I am also very interested in that question

Yall be roleblocking me

?
I'm confused by you asking the initial question and then apparently answering it yourself...but how could you be roleblocked if white never got filled?  Also, energy filling isn't role-blockable.  This makes no sense.  If you mean your action was unsuccessful, that implies that someone else filled white first (would need to be scum).
In order for EFHW and Roadrunner to both have done what they were supposed to do, and the energy to look like it does...
3 white energy could have been used before EFHW pulled it to Red.
Then there would be 2 energy in red, and we would need both red energies to get used up (by e copping, and someone commuting).  Then someone would have refilled white in round 3 (which is 100% reasonable).
(Note: scum could have filled white earlier in the round if Roadrunner was indeed saying that his action failed).

If however, e got no cop shot, then either EFHW OR Roadrunner must be lying (or didn't do their energy action in round 2).

As regards us having no NK, either scum tried to shoot someone who never left the lower deck, or scum tried to shoot someone that was doctored (or commuted) (or scum didn't shoot at all...but I can't see how that would happen when only 2 players had all actions taken up by faust's plan).

[EFHW]

It sounds to me like RR didn't fill the energy. While it's true the other three of you should have been able to do whatever, it would have been reasonable to back him up in case he didn't do it for some reason. I could have, too, I guess. I wish I had thought of it.

[theorel]

I am feeling pretty confident about the game right now. We have a WV result and townie play from silverspawn/faust. We have scum!LaLight. I think EFHW is likely scum as well.

Theorel can be scum too. How many total scum are we supposed to have?

3 more scum (including Lalight).  In order for both investigators to be town and accurate, one of us or awaclus must be scum (assuming EFHW is scum).  The only possible false-investigation result is faust (by doctor of silver).  I'm not sure I particularly believe that it's likely though, I'd lean that one of the investigators is claiming investigation for town-points first. 

We know for 100% that if iguana is town then Roadrunner is town, since in order for iguana's cop-result to be flipped EFHW and myself must have both lied, but that would be all 3 scum accounted for.

[theorel]

It sounds to me like RR didn't fill the energy. While it's true the other three of you should have been able to do whatever, it would have been reasonable to back him up in case he didn't do it for some reason. I could have, too, I guess. I wish I had thought of it.

You couldn't since you needed to fill Red.  I couldn't because it would have been after you tried to fill Red.  But it's true that faust or awaclus could have tried to fill central in case RR didn't.  But RR is likely town, so I think leaving him to fill central was reasonable.  Leaving you to fill Red was less likely to work, I think iguana should have backed you up on it in retrospect.

[theorel]

Oh, btw, just as a general FYI I'm going to be unavailable a lot the next 2 days.  I'll try to check in each night though.  Hopefully my absence doesn't mess up any claiming or making plans for night actions.

[EFHW]

I guess all the energy moves could have been backed up by plan, and copping planned for round 3. You're right, if I had done it, I would have been late to pull energy to red, since anyone in red would have assumed I did it round 2. But what two investigations are you referring to? I just see the wv of faust by silver. Is there another one?

[theorel]

iguana copped Roadrunner as town yesterday.

[theorel]

You got all mixed up by the 0 energy in Red, though iguana had to be lying, it resulted in the first post being updated with current energy readings...

[theorel]

You got all mixed up by the 0 energy in Red, thought iguana had to be lying, it resulted in the first post being updated with current energy readings...

Corrected typo.

[2.71828.....]

I also don't fully understand the results from my actions last night. Or maybe I don't fully understand the setup. Or something else happened.

Ok, I just reread the setup and I just didn't fully understand it and I think I understand (a little) of why red is still empty.

I very much prefer to claim later rather than earlier, but will respect the wishes of people with a higher IC status than I have

[2.71828.....]

Also, faust's plan was specifically if we lynched scum

[faust]

I am cool with faust or silverspawn coming up with a claim order. Let's do that, get it out of the way, then we can always lynch lalight like we should have done last night.

I think first anyone who did not do their assigned action should claim now. To be perfectly clear, assigned actions were:

silver: Red-red-card draw
iguana: Card draw
RR: Red-Fill Central-X
EFHW: Red-Move energy-X
e: Cop or Commute

[faust]

We'll give everyone on that list time until their next post, then we continue claiming.

[silverspawn]

post

[LaLight]

oh god Haddock was TOWN? Unexpected!

Sorry guys.

[2.71828.....]

oh god Haddock was TOWN? Unexpected!

Sorry guys.

Hahaha.... Love this.

I did my assigned action. I want this day to last like 48 hours. Let's lynch LaLight

[faust]

oh god Haddock was TOWN? Unexpected!

Sorry guys.

Hahaha.... Love this.

I did my assigned action. I want this day to last like 48 hours. Let's lynch LaLight

No.

[faust]

Well, not necessarily anyway.

We have found 1 scum. I think we might be able to find more today.

[LaLight]

You can also leave me alive in case I will accidentally post my partners

[LaLight]

vote: silver, he's clearly scum btw

[theorel]

Also, faust's plan was specifically if we lynched scum

faust posted 2 plans.  1 for scum lynch 1 for non-scum lynch.  The one I posted above was the non-scum lynch plan.  (The scum-lynch plan was to hit C a bunch and cancel the nk).

You were supposed to do basically the same thing regardless though.

[EFHW]

Next post

[faust]

Missing: RR, iguana

[iguanaiguana]

I am cool with faust or silverspawn coming up with a claim order. Let's do that, get it out of the way, then we can always lynch lalight like we should have done last night.

I think first anyone who did not do their assigned action should claim now. To be perfectly clear, assigned actions were:

silver: Red-red-card draw
iguana: Card draw
RR: Red-Fill Central-X
EFHW: Red-Move energy-X
e: Cop or Commute

I was on the upper deck,  not the lower deck. I was next to e and didn't know when he would be moving down, so I moved over, wiggled the mouse, and moved down. No time to draw cards in a zone I wasn't in.

[faust]

I am cool with faust or silverspawn coming up with a claim order. Let's do that, get it out of the way, then we can always lynch lalight like we should have done last night.

I think first anyone who did not do their assigned action should claim now. To be perfectly clear, assigned actions were:

silver: Red-red-card draw
iguana: Card draw
RR: Red-Fill Central-X
EFHW: Red-Move energy-X
e: Cop or Commute

I was on the upper deck,  not the lower deck. I was next to e and didn't know when he would be moving down, so I moved over, wiggled the mouse, and moved down. No time to draw cards in a zone I wasn't in.

What was the point of wiggling the mouse?

[iguanaiguana]

So that we can continue copping people?

[iguanaiguana]

Basically, you gave bad instructions based on wrong information, then didn't bother to correct them when I corrected you - so I did what I thought was best.

[faust]

Basically, you gave bad instructions based on wrong information, then didn't bother to correct them when I corrected you - so I did what I thought was best.

That's fine actually. I just think Tracking would have been way more useful.

[Roadrunner7671]

Ugh I misunderstood the plan and tried to fill red!

[EFHW]

oh god Haddock was TOWN? Unexpected!

Sorry guys.

You must have some idea about what happened. Your claims conflicted and he was town. How did that happen if you didn't lie?

[EFHW]

Ugh I misunderstood the plan and tried to fill red!

Why are we trusting iguana's result so unquestioningly?

[faust]

Ugh I misunderstood the plan and tried to fill red!

Why are we trusting iguana's result so unquestioningly?

We're not.

Vote: iguana

[faust]

Ugh I misunderstood the plan and tried to fill red!

The plan was very clearly formulated. There is no excuse for this. I'm going to assume the scumteam is iguana/RR/LaLight.

[faust]

Here's a further claiming order. Please include your current hand in your claim.

EFHW
e
theorel
Awaclus
iguana
RR
silver
faust

[faust]

I mean, unvote

It is very clear that we need to lynch LaLight today.

[faust]

Here's a further claiming order. Please include your current hand in your claim.

EFHW
e
theorel
Awaclus
iguana
RR
silver
faust

Retract statement. I want hand claims only from iguana, RR and silver.

[Roadrunner7671]

1. First one in player order of {me, Awaclus, theorel, RR} goes to lower white and fills the central pool IN PHASE 2.

In my head I made this 'first one in the player order' and not first one of the people listed. That's pretty bad.

[Roadrunner7671]

My cards are: (Blue-C), (Lift-C), (Lift-B), (Lift-C), (Lift-B), (Blue-A)

[iguanaiguana]

Red A Blue C Lift A Lift A Lift B Lift B

[theorel]

I am cool with faust or silverspawn coming up with a claim order. Let's do that, get it out of the way, then we can always lynch lalight like we should have done last night.

I think first anyone who did not do their assigned action should claim now. To be perfectly clear, assigned actions were:

silver: Red-red-card draw
iguana: Card draw
RR: Red-Fill Central-X
EFHW: Red-Move energy-X
e: Cop or Commute

I was on the upper deck,  not the lower deck. I was next to e and didn't know when he would be moving down, so I moved over, wiggled the mouse, and moved down. No time to draw cards in a zone I wasn't in.

Since the plan called for e to use cop in round 3...I think you maybe could have guessed when he was moving down.  Not that I think moving the mouse was the worst idea ever, but your reasoning is terrible.  I mean if e was ever going to cop, then you knew you could use the lift during round 1.

[theorel]

Why is there no energy in the red pool?

I am also very interested in that question

Yall be roleblocking me

What did you mean by this?

[EFHW]

Here's a further claiming order. Please include your current hand in your claim.

EFHW
e
theorel
Awaclus
iguana
RR
silver
faust

Retract statement. I want hand claims only from iguana, RR and silver.

What is your suspicion of silver?

[2.71828.....]

Why is there no energy in the red pool?

I am also very interested in that question

Yall be roleblocking me

What did you mean by this?

I think he believes someone roleblocked him

[theorel]

Given there are only 2 scum left for tonight.  I'm pretty sure we can plan actions that super-confirm iguana/roadrunner as town.

Spitballing:
Suppose roadrunner is called on to fill red again (if he doesn't we have our scum-team).
Then e investigates iguana (round 1 or 2 depending on relative order to roadrunner).
Then someone else investigates e.  (maybe awaclus, silver, or efhw?)

Supposing that we can also block the nk (say by you and I each playing 2 C's)
And get 2 printouts (you and I'm leaning iguana since it is highly unlikely you are both scum)

Obviously this requires particular players to have particular cards...but I'm less concerned about which players do what, and more concerned with the counts (excepting iguana and roadrunner).

Pretty sure we can force contradictions, confirmed town-ness, or exposed scum-ness.  After lynching lalight, we'll be at 6v2, so even if we fail to block the nk, and mislynch, and fail to block nk again, we're at 3v2 and the contradictor can be killed.  It's possible we can set things up well enough that scum is 100% exposed by contradictory claims.  This is just a vague idea at this point, which we can firm up moving forward.  (Ideally remaining players would do some energy movement so that we can extend the cop chain the next night).

If we can get everyone tied up in lower central-white, and upper/lower-red, then any cop-switch that may happen will hopefully be exposed (or known between 2 players).  Anyways, I think there's a winning strategy here, probably easiest once we know everyone's hands.  I'm not sure that we specifically need anyone's hands first to be able to make this work.

[theorel]

Why is there no energy in the red pool?

I am also very interested in that question

Yall be roleblocking me

What did you mean by this?

I think he believes someone roleblocked him

Okay, you're right, I should have asked better.  (Assuming that you mean that someone roleblocked you) why do you believe that?  If that's not what you meant, what did you mean?

[2.71828.....]

Given there are only 2 scum left for tonight.  I'm pretty sure we can plan actions that super-confirm iguana/roadrunner as town.

Spitballing:
Suppose roadrunner is called on to fill red again (if he doesn't we have our scum-team).
Then e investigates iguana (round 1 or 2 depending on relative order to roadrunner).
Then someone else investigates e.  (maybe awaclus, silver, or efhw?)

Supposing that we can also block the nk (say by you and I each playing 2 C's)
And get 2 printouts (you and I'm leaning iguana since it is highly unlikely you are both scum)

Obviously this requires particular players to have particular cards...but I'm less concerned about which players do what, and more concerned with the counts (excepting iguana and roadrunner).

Pretty sure we can force contradictions, confirmed town-ness, or exposed scum-ness.  After lynching lalight, we'll be at 6v2, so even if we fail to block the nk, and mislynch, and fail to block nk again, we're at 3v2 and the contradictor can be killed.  It's possible we can set things up well enough that scum is 100% exposed by contradictory claims.  This is just a vague idea at this point, which we can firm up moving forward.  (Ideally remaining players would do some energy movement so that we can extend the cop chain the next night).

If we can get everyone tied up in lower central-white, and upper/lower-red, then any cop-switch that may happen will hopefully be exposed (or known between 2 players).  Anyways, I think there's a winning strategy here, probably easiest once we know everyone's hands.  I'm not sure that we specifically need anyone's hands first to be able to make this work.

I like the spitballing, but let's get claims going. EFHW?

[2.71828.....]

EFHW needs to claim. She got online, quoted a post that included claiming order, then didn't claim? Or even comment on it?

[theorel]

Why is there no energy in the red pool?

My qt said my pulling red energy action was successful. I assumed someone before me would have filled the white pool, per faust's plan.

Ugh I misunderstood the plan and tried to fill red!

(Note: Roadrunner claimed to be in lower blue)

Oh, right, we have another contradiction here already, cool.
So either EFHW is scum or roadrunner is scum. (and roadrunner scum implies iguana scum).

Yeah, I think we should be able to quite easily confirm whether iguana is scum tonight by using a double-cop result that doesn't involve efhw.  We just need to ensure that no one can use a cop switch without exposing themselves.  Thanks scum, for contradicting town

[theorel]

EFHW needs to claim. She got online, quoted a post that included claiming order, then didn't claim? Or even comment on it?

re-read the quote.  faust said he wanted silver, iguana, and rr first.

Here's a further claiming order. Please include your current hand in your claim.

EFHW
e
theorel
Awaclus
iguana
RR
silver
faust

Retract statement. I want hand claims only from iguana, RR and silver.

What is your suspicion of silver?

[2.71828.....]

EFHW needs to claim. She got online, quoted a post that included claiming order, then didn't claim? Or even comment on it?

re-read the quote.  faust said he wanted silver, iguana, and rr first.

Here's a further claiming order. Please include your current hand in your claim.

EFHW
e
theorel
Awaclus
iguana
RR
silver
faust

Retract statement. I want hand claims only from iguana, RR and silver.

What is your suspicion of silver?

Re-read the quote. He didn't change the claim order, he just wanted partial claims from most of the people

[theorel]

Given there are only 2 scum left for tonight.  I'm pretty sure we can plan actions that super-confirm iguana/roadrunner as town.

Spitballing:
Suppose roadrunner is called on to fill red again (if he doesn't we have our scum-team).
Then e investigates iguana (round 1 or 2 depending on relative order to roadrunner).
Then someone else investigates e.  (maybe awaclus, silver, or efhw?)

Supposing that we can also block the nk (say by you and I each playing 2 C's)
And get 2 printouts (you and I'm leaning iguana since it is highly unlikely you are both scum)

Obviously this requires particular players to have particular cards...but I'm less concerned about which players do what, and more concerned with the counts (excepting iguana and roadrunner).

Pretty sure we can force contradictions, confirmed town-ness, or exposed scum-ness.  After lynching lalight, we'll be at 6v2, so even if we fail to block the nk, and mislynch, and fail to block nk again, we're at 3v2 and the contradictor can be killed.  It's possible we can set things up well enough that scum is 100% exposed by contradictory claims.  This is just a vague idea at this point, which we can firm up moving forward.  (Ideally remaining players would do some energy movement so that we can extend the cop chain the next night).

If we can get everyone tied up in lower central-white, and upper/lower-red, then any cop-switch that may happen will hopefully be exposed (or known between 2 players).  Anyways, I think there's a winning strategy here, probably easiest once we know everyone's hands.  I'm not sure that we specifically need anyone's hands first to be able to make this work.

Oh, I originally had an @faust at the beginning of the post...I removed it, but still used "you".  So, "you" should be "faust" everywhere.

[theorel]

EFHW needs to claim. She got online, quoted a post that included claiming order, then didn't claim? Or even comment on it?

re-read the quote.  faust said he wanted silver, iguana, and rr first.

Here's a further claiming order. Please include your current hand in your claim.

EFHW
e
theorel
Awaclus
iguana
RR
silver
faust

Retract statement. I want hand claims only from iguana, RR and silver.

What is your suspicion of silver?

Re-read the quote. He didn't change the claim order, he just wanted partial claims from most of the people

Oh, I guess it depends on how you read "Retract statement"...I read that as "completely ignore", you read it as "still claim, but don't claim hands."

[theorel]

EFHW needs to claim. She got online, quoted a post that included claiming order, then didn't claim? Or even comment on it?

re-read the quote.  faust said he wanted silver, iguana, and rr first.

Here's a further claiming order. Please include your current hand in your claim.

EFHW
e
theorel
Awaclus
iguana
RR
silver
faust

Retract statement. I want hand claims only from iguana, RR and silver.

What is your suspicion of silver?

Re-read the quote. He didn't change the claim order, he just wanted partial claims from most of the people

Oh, I guess it depends on how you read "Retract statement"...I read that as "completely ignore", you read it as "still claim, but don't claim hands."

That sounds more condescending then I meant.  I mean I can see your reading (if you only retract the hands-part of his statement)

[EFHW]

EFHW needs to claim. She got online, quoted a post that included claiming order, then didn't claim? Or even comment on it?

Theorel is right - faust asked for confirmation of doing the scripted moves "in the next post", so I did that, and then faust said he wanted to hear from RR, iguana and silver first. We haven't heard from silver.

PPE: I read it the way theorel did, but it doesn't really matter, since I have basically claimed. I moved red, I tried to pull energy from white, and I tried to draw cards. Drawing energy was "successful" because it doesn't require energy. Drawing cards was unsuccessful.

[theorel]

Why is there no energy in the red pool?

My qt said my pulling red energy action was successful. I assumed someone before me would have filled the white pool, per faust's plan.

Ugh I misunderstood the plan and tried to fill red!

(Note: Roadrunner claimed to be in lower blue)

Oh, right, we have another contradiction here already, cool.
So either EFHW is scum or roadrunner is scum. (and roadrunner scum implies iguana scum).

Yeah, I think we should be able to quite easily confirm whether iguana is scum tonight by using a double-cop result that doesn't involve efhw.  We just need to ensure that no one can use a cop switch without exposing themselves.  Thanks scum, for contradicting town

Gah nevermind, they tried to pull red in different rounds.  I'm being dumb.

[EFHW]

EFHW needs to claim. She got online, quoted a post that included claiming order, then didn't claim? Or even comment on it?

Theorel is right - faust asked for confirmation of doing the scripted moves "in the next post", so I did that, and then faust said he wanted to hear from RR, iguana and silver first. We haven't heard from silver.

PPE: I read it the way theorel did, but it doesn't really matter, since I have basically claimed. I moved red, I tried to pull energy from white, and I tried to draw cards. Drawing energy was "successful" because it doesn't require energy. Drawing cards was unsuccessful.

I made a false assumption that my card draw failed because it required energy. I just checked and it doesn't, so I'm guessing it failed because someone else got there first that round.

[EFHW]

e, you're next!

[2.71828.....]

Here is what I did:
1) B action (commute) - failed. I misunderstood the setup for some reason. My thought was that as long as there was energy in the red pool at the beginning of the night action resolution phase (after the space phase) my action would work. Obviously incorrect. So I just wasted an action there.
2) lift down to lower red - success
3) pull 3 energy to red - "success" similar to what EFHW described. So I can say with authority that white was empty at the end of the second round of the space phase.

[2.71828.....]

Theorel's turn

[EFHW]

Here is what I did:
1) B action (commute) - failed. I misunderstood the setup for some reason. My thought was that as long as there was energy in the red pool at the beginning of the night action resolution phase (after the space phase) my action would work. Obviously incorrect. So I just wasted an action there.
2) lift down to lower red - success
3) pull 3 energy to red - "success" similar to what EFHW described. So I can say with authority that white was empty at the end of the second round of the space phase.

But why didn't you cop? It was going to be very easy for those of us without scripted actions to block the nk.

[2.71828.....]

Here is what I did:
1) B action (commute) - failed. I misunderstood the setup for some reason. My thought was that as long as there was energy in the red pool at the beginning of the night action resolution phase (after the space phase) my action would work. Obviously incorrect. So I just wasted an action there.
2) lift down to lower red - success
3) pull 3 energy to red - "success" similar to what EFHW described. So I can say with authority that white was empty at the end of the second round of the space phase.

But why didn't you cop? It was going to be very easy for those of us without scripted actions to block the nk.

I didn't want to. It wouldn't have worked anyway with my incorrect perception of night actions

[EFHW]

Here is what I did:
1) B action (commute) - failed. I misunderstood the setup for some reason. My thought was that as long as there was energy in the red pool at the beginning of the night action resolution phase (after the space phase) my action would work. Obviously incorrect. So I just wasted an action there.
2) lift down to lower red - success
3) pull 3 energy to red - "success" similar to what EFHW described. So I can say with authority that white was empty at the end of the second round of the space phase.

But why didn't you cop? It was going to be very easy for those of us without scripted actions to block the nk.

I didn't want to. It wouldn't have worked anyway with my incorrect perception of night actions

Well, right. The plan was for you to take a red action in the 3rd round. Why didn't you want to cop?

[2.71828.....]

I thought there was a halfway decent chance scum might try to kill me since I was "supposed" to cop. I thought that it worked at first since I saw no NK before I checked my qt

[2.71828.....]

And actually....red was empty the entire night. So no matter what any red action failed. No way that red was filled and used up in the 3rd round.

[2.71828.....]

I mean, that doesn't excuse my failure to read and understand the setup. That was just a lapse. Learn by doing...i fully understand the setup now

[2.71828.....]

Here is what I did:
1) B action (commute) - failed. I misunderstood the setup for some reason. My thought was that as long as there was energy in the red pool at the beginning of the night action resolution phase (after the space phase) my action would work. Obviously incorrect. So I just wasted an action there.
2) lift down to lower red - success
3) pull 3 energy to red - "success" similar to what EFHW described. So I can say with authority that white was empty at the end of the second round of the space phase.

But why didn't you cop? It was going to be very easy for those of us without scripted actions to block the nk.

I didn't want to. It wouldn't have worked anyway with my incorrect perception of night actions

Well, right. The plan was for you to take a red action in the 3rd round. Why didn't you want to cop?

Also, the other reason I didn't cop was because I only had one A action. So I decided to use B.

[EFHW]

And actually....red was empty the entire night. So no matter what any red action failed. No way that red was filled and used up in the 3rd round.

I know, I'm asking why you didn't follow the plan.

[theorel]

And actually....red was empty the entire night. So no matter what any red action failed. No way that red was filled and used up in the 3rd round.

I know, I'm asking why you didn't follow the plan.

You know the plan was for him to either commute or cop, right?  He just didn't bother to understand the "as soon as the red pool is filled." part.

Anyways, I'll claim...I Doctored e.  Obviously it's possible that scum just targeted someone on lower deck, but I like to think that I blocked scum's kill.

[2.71828.....]

And actually....red was empty the entire night. So no matter what any red action failed. No way that red was filled and used up in the 3rd round.

I know, I'm asking why you didn't follow the plan.

You know the plan was for him to either commute or cop, right?  He just didn't bother to understand the "as soon as the red pool is filled." part.

Anyways, I'll claim...I Doctored e.  Obviously it's possible that scum just targeted someone on lower deck, but I like to think that I blocked scum's kill.

I would like to think that too. Although I was on the lower deck at the resolution of space phase.

[faust]

If we can get everyone tied up in lower central-white, and upper/lower-red, then any cop-switch that may happen will hopefully be exposed (or known between 2 players).

Want to point out that this does not work. Scum can use Cop Switch and not target the person using Cop for WIFOM.

[faust]

EFHW needs to claim. She got online, quoted a post that included claiming order, then didn't claim? Or even comment on it?

Theorel is right - faust asked for confirmation of doing the scripted moves "in the next post", so I did that, and then faust said he wanted to hear from RR, iguana and silver first. We haven't heard from silver.

PPE: I read it the way theorel did, but it doesn't really matter, since I have basically claimed. I moved red, I tried to pull energy from white, and I tried to draw cards. Drawing energy was "successful" because it doesn't require energy. Drawing cards was unsuccessful.

Sorry, my intention was to still keep claiming order, just no hand claims except for those people.

[Awaclus]

Not sure if it's my turn to claim, but I don't really see the downside in claiming even if it isn't, given that I forgot to do anything at all.

[theorel]

If we can get everyone tied up in lower central-white, and upper/lower-red, then any cop-switch that may happen will hopefully be exposed (or known between 2 players).

Want to point out that this does not work. Scum can use Cop Switch and not target the person using Cop for WIFOM.

I meant, that we would know 1 of 2 players used the cop switch, not that we would know 1 of 2 players was switched.

i.e. if 2 players are supposed to cop, and we see 1 cop result and 1 cop switch we know that 1 of the 2 intended coppers played the switch.  Whereas if we have a single player filling central white and central white energy is not filled, then we know precisely which player did the cop switch.  So, it's not that we know anything about the result being switched, but rather that we know who switched it.

[faust]

Okay, I think that concludes things.

I'll finish with my own claim:

I went to white, got a status printout (failed since RR didn't do what he was asked to) and refilled central.

We are going to lynch LaLight now. The night plan for tonight is somewhat easier:

The Plan

I will play 3 C-actions.

iguana goes to lower white (I think he's already there) and plays a C action.

The first player in player order who is currently in lower red refills the red pool.

I will leave the remaining actions for each person to decide on their own. Note that we are guaranteed to block the scum nightkill unless iguana is scum, in which case he will out himself by not doing the C action.

[theorel]

And actually....red was empty the entire night. So no matter what any red action failed. No way that red was filled and used up in the 3rd round.

I know, I'm asking why you didn't follow the plan.

You know the plan was for him to either commute or cop, right?  He just didn't bother to understand the "as soon as the red pool is filled." part.

Anyways, I'll claim...I Doctored e.  Obviously it's possible that scum just targeted someone on lower deck, but I like to think that I blocked scum's kill.

I would like to think that too. Although I was on the lower deck at the resolution of space phase.

By default, the scum NK can only reach those players who visit the Upper Deck of the ship during a given Space Phase.

You were on the upper deck for part of the night, so you were eligible for night kill.  You don't have to stay on upper deck to be eligible.  (I messed this up early as well).

[faust]

Vote: LaLight

[Awaclus]

Vote: LaLight

[theorel]

we still haven't really heard from silver, either to know his hand, or who he made draw cards.
Why do you not want to fully plan tonight given the nk will be blocked?  This seems like the perfect time to plan it.  If red is not filled who didn't do their job?  If we get a cop-switch, who's likely to have activated it?  I'm happy to make a full plan, which you can confirm is a good one, if you just don't want to do it.
I'm pretty confident we can get 2 cop results which would be strongly useful, and we can chain them if we know who is supposed to cop.  I also feel like we can give 8 people things to do that do not allow them to cop switch without giving themselves away.

Is your opinion that iguana is scum coloring things?  Because copping iguana seems like a better way of determining if he's scum than just having him attempt to block the nk.

[faust]

we still haven't really heard from silver, either to know his hand, or who he made draw cards.

He made me draw cards.

Why do you not want to fully plan tonight given the nk will be blocked?  This seems like the perfect time to plan it.  If red is not filled who didn't do their job?  If we get a cop-switch, who's likely to have activated it?  I'm happy to make a full plan, which you can confirm is a good one, if you just don't want to do it.

I think it is easier to catch scum in a lie if we don't coordinate. Obviously some people might want to use Cop, but zone/deck monitoring are also very useful to figure out if someone used Cop Switch.

Is your opinion that iguana is scum coloring things?  Because copping iguana seems like a better way of determining if he's scum than just having him attempt to block the nk.

Well I'm not against also Copping iguana. I just want someone scummy to give up an action on blocking the nightkill rather than a town, and iguana is the scummiest player alive after LaLight.

[iguanaiguana]

Vote: Lalight

[silverspawn]

So do you still want me to claim my hand or is that now redundant?

[silverspawn]

I will leave the remaining actions for each person to decide on their own. Note that we are guaranteed to block the scum nightkill unless iguana is scum, in which case he will out himself by not doing the C action.

Don't we need 5 Cs? It's the number of players left alive (9) halved (4,5) rounded up (5).

[faust]

I will leave the remaining actions for each person to decide on their own. Note that we are guaranteed to block the scum nightkill unless iguana is scum, in which case he will out himself by not doing the C action.

Don't we need 5 Cs? It's the number of players left alive (9) halved (4,5) rounded up (5).

We lynch LaLight, then there will be only 8 players left alive.

[faust]

So do you still want me to claim my hand or is that now redundant?

It's not necessary I think. I just needed it in case iguana didn't have a C card.

[silverspawn]

I will leave the remaining actions for each person to decide on their own. Note that we are guaranteed to block the scum nightkill unless iguana is scum, in which case he will out himself by not doing the C action.

Don't we need 5 Cs? It's the number of players left alive (9) halved (4,5) rounded up (5).

We lynch LaLight, then there will be only 8 players left alive.

oh derp

[silverspawn]

vote: LaLight

It seems like you did break the setup to some point, and it's not even that complicated.

[silverspawn]

L-1

[faust]

vote: LaLight

It seems like you did break the setup to some point, and it's not even that complicated.

I think an issue is that it gets very hard for scum to maneuver the more town outnumbers them. In this way the setup is quite swingy.

[2.71828.....]

Vote: LaLight

I think having any standard way that town can just blanketly stop a NK is a little unbalanced. But we still haven't technically caught all the scum... so let's not get too ahead of ourselves

[faust]

Vote: LaLight

I think having any standard way that town can just blanketly stop a NK is a little unbalanced. But we still haven't technically caught all the scum... so let's not get too ahead of ourselves

Well, scum did start with a strong number (4/14) to make up for it. But yeah, they needed to swing the game decisively in their favor early on, and the gkrieg lynch crippled them.

[faust]

Which, by the way, is why I think one of RR/silver is definitely scum, as otherwise all of gkrieg's partners would have been on his lynch.

[EFHW]

vote: LaLight

It seems like you did break the setup to some point, and it's not even that complicated.

!!

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 4.final

silverspawn (1): LaLight
LaLight (5): faust, Awaclus, iguanaiguana, silverspawn, 2.71828.....
Not Voting (3): EFHW, theorel, Roadrunner7671

With 9 alive, it took 5 to lynch.

[SpaceAnemone]

LaLight has been lynched! He was a scummy Mafia impostor crew member!

My my.. just when I thought you were growing out of that homicidal new-crew-bonding phase. Let's just hope the rest of you there are buoyed up by revealing and imposter, and are feeling loyal to your dear ship and its profitable science!

Let's press on with another Space Phase! Here is your turn order!

1: Awaclus
2: e
3: EFHW
4: Roadrunner
5: silverspawn
6: faust
7: theorel
8: Iguana

N4 Space Phase begins now, and will end at 1000 forum time on Sunday 25th February.
Please submit your card play in your personal QTs before this deadline.

Thread Locked.

[SpaceAnemone]

Good morning, crew! Good to see you're all looking healthy and present again this morning!

For today's installment of corrections to your Hostile Aliens field manual, let's consider the Interstellar Octopus. The photocopied guide you have may in fact recommend staying very still and hoping it doesn't smell you. However, it turns out that octopuses have rather spectacular vision, and the advice ought to have recommended firing lots of pulse canon shots and lasers at it. Rockets don't work well, though -- something about all those sinuous space tentacles.

Vote Count 5.0

Not voting (8): faust, EFHW, theorel, Iguana, silverspawn, Awaclus, e, Roadrunner

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
D5 begins now, and ends at 1.30pm forum time on Sunday 4th March.

Thread Unlocked!

[SpaceAnemone]

Ship Status
Upper Blue appears to be unresponsive. Actions there will be unavailable in the next Space Phase.

Energy Status
red pool: 2
white pool: 1
blue pool: 2

[silverspawn]

beep boop

[EFHW]

About sums it up.

[silverspawn]

the only thing that's missing is a vote: EFHW

[faust]

Claim order:

Awaclus
iguana
silver
EFHW
RR
e
theorel
faust

[Awaclus]

I did zone monitoring three times. Do I have to claim more at this point?

[2.71828.....]

I don't think claim order is all that important at this point. Theorel is town, I copped him because I couldn't bring myself to trust him.

But theorel is in fact town. My gut worked once this game on gkrieg, but let's go with the facts at this point.

Vote: EFHW

[2.71828.....]

This is what I did (for completeness):
1) fill red
2) lift up
3) cop theorel, result town

[iguanaiguana]

1) block the night kill with Blue C
2) Lift up with Lift A
3) Track EFHW with Lift B

EFHW did not target anyone last night.

I got cards from silverspawn. Thanks!

Now my hand is: (Lift-A), (Lift-B), (Red-A) + 5 new: (Lift-C), (Red-B), (Lift-B), (Red-B), (Red-A)

I would like to say that despite Faust's tunneling and my lack of interest in this game, I have been objectively towny. I've been on both scum lynches, and have used the suspicion on me in order to travel up to the upper deck and try to get useful results on people I suspect. It also appears that I helped blocked the nightkill last night.

So let's not lynch me, but maybe someone objectively scummy like EFHW or Awaclus.

[iguanaiguana]

1) block the night kill with Blue C
2) Lift up with Lift A Lift B
3) Track EFHW with Lift B Lift A

EFHW did not target anyone last night.

I got cards from silverspawn. Thanks!

Now my hand is: (Lift-A), (Lift-B), (Red-A) + 5 new: (Lift-C), (Red-B), (Lift-B), (Red-B), (Red-A)

I would like to say that despite Faust's tunneling and my lack of interest in this game, I have been objectively towny. I've been on both scum lynches, and have used the suspicion on me in order to travel up to the upper deck and try to get useful results on people I suspect. It also appears that I helped blocked the nightkill last night.

So let's not lynch me, but maybe someone objectively scummy like EFHW or Awaclus.

Had those backwards.

[EFHW]

How am I objectively scummy?

[EFHW]

iguana is correct that I had no targets. I tried to give myself cards but forgot to specify a target.  Moved to white, got printout. Cop confirmed.

[2.71828.....]

How am I objectively scummy?

Because everyone else is town?

Who else should I vote for?

[faust]

I did zone monitoring three times. Do I have to claim more at this point?

I'd say it can wait.

[faust]

I've been on both scum lynches

Yeah, props for being on the LaLight lynch 

[faust]

iguana is correct that I had no targets. I tried to give myself cards but forgot to specify a target.  Moved to white, got printout. Cop confirmed.

Can you please state the complete printout now?

[faust]

I don't think claim order is all that important at this point. Theorel is town, I copped him because I couldn't bring myself to trust him.

Not too much, but I wanted to keep the game moving and was worried it might not happen if I don't post an order before going to sleep.

[faust]

3) cop theorel, result town

Man I wish you chose another target. theorel was my strongest townread.

[theorel]

I zone monitored Awaclus, and tried (but failed) to get a printout.

I'm now central white with 2 C's.

[Awaclus]

I zone monitored Awaclus, and tried (but failed) to get a printout.

I'm now central white with 2 C's.

You can probably confirm that I was in lower blue then?

[Awaclus]

Or I guess you can't confirm the lower part.

[EFHW]

 

iguana is correct that I had no targets. I tried to give myself cards but forgot to specify a target.  Moved to white, got printout. Cop confirmed.

Can you please state the complete printout now?

That was it.

[EFHW]

How am I objectively scummy?

Because everyone else is town?

Who else should I vote for?

RR

[faust]

How am I objectively scummy?

Because everyone else is town?

Who else should I vote for?

RR

It doesn't make sense to vote for RR while iguana is still alive...

[theorel]

Oh yeah, of course...I can confirm that Awaclus was in blue after the first action.

[EFHW]

How am I objectively scummy?

Because everyone else is town?

Who else should I vote for?

RR

It doesn't make sense to vote for RR while iguana is still alive...

iguana is another fine choice. Enumerating all the ways you are towny is not objectively a towny thing to do! Awaclus hasn't been towny. More like under the radar. I'll reread both of them today.

[theorel]

OTOH, copping iguana either 100% confirms roadrunner as town (if iguana is copped as town) OR gives us a 50/50 between the cop and iguana (if he is copped as scum).

I would definitely rather lynch silver or EFHW over iguana for that reason.
I think given that we are guaranteed no cop switch tonight, we should plan to block the nk and get 2-3 cop results in a chain.  As long as nk is blocked, we can get a significant cop-chain going of confirmed town, or else put scum into a very bad lying position.

Let's see who could possibly cop tonight (based on location)?
e can in round 1
EFHW can in round 3
faust can in round 3
I can in round 3
iguana can in round 2
awaclus cannot
roadrunner and silver we don't know yet.

we'll also need 4 C's to block the nk.  I can provide 2.  The other 2 would need to come from awaclus, faust, EFHW, or other players that are we-know-not-where.

[Roadrunner7671]

All I did was try to put energy into the red pool, I didn't wanna screw anything up again.

[Roadrunner7671]

Also if I was scum!iguana I'd probably cop RR, but we'll see.

[silverspawn]

I tried refill red -> move up -> cop iguana. Moving did not work (e's movement confirmed) so instead I gave cards to ii.

[theorel]

Um...so iguana is caught in a lie right (I've gotten this wrong so many times this game).
He claims to have tracked, EFHW claims he didn't.
But ALSO, there's still 1 energy in white, so he can only track if EFHW also lied about getting a printout at all.
But I tried to get a printout and failed, so I can confirm that SOMEONE got a printout.
So...iguana is seemingly lying about tracking, both by printout and energy.

Just to double-check no errors on energy readings?

[theorel]

For reference here are all the claims (well technically faust hasn't claimed, but this is what he said he'd do yesterday, and not blocking the nk seems like an awful chance to take)
Night Activity:
1: Awaclus Monitor x3
2: e fill red (2 white), lift, cop
3: EFHW draw, move, printout
4: Roadrunner pull energy
5: silverspawn pull energy, lift(fail), draw(iguana)
6: faust played 3 C's?
7: theorel monitor, move, printout(fail)
8: Iguana C, lift, track

[theorel]

Assuming iguana is caught in a lie, and not an error...
Suggested night actions:
e cops roadrunner, takes lift refills Red.
roadrunner does lift, cops silver
faust cops e (lift then red)
silver pulls energy goes to white and plays C
I fill white, play 2 C's
EFHW plays central C, lift, wiggles mouse
Awaclus comes center, plays a C, and gets a printout.

Some of those might not be doable, the important ones are the energy movements and the cops.  As long as we have 4 of the 5 C's we're good there.

[2.71828.....]

Also, I think we are at the point where coordinating actions should work very well.

I plan on
1) move blueward
2) take a lift down
3) play a C action

Or I can flip 1&2. I don't have any A actions left so I can't cop. But I have a bunch of C actions and once I sit in lower white can help with blocking the NK

[faust]

For reference here are all the claims (well technically faust hasn't claimed, but this is what he said he'd do yesterday, and not blocking the nk seems like an awful chance to take)

Just for the sake of completeness, you are correct.

[faust]

Um...so iguana is caught in a lie right (I've gotten this wrong so many times this game).
He claims to have tracked, EFHW claims he didn't.
But ALSO, there's still 1 energy in white, so he can only track if EFHW also lied about getting a printout at all.
But I tried to get a printout and failed, so I can confirm that SOMEONE got a printout.
So...iguana is seemingly lying about tracking, both by printout and energy.

Just to double-check no errors on energy readings?

Good work! I can't believe we're finally lynching iguana. This has been a long time coming.

[theorel]

Okay, well if e can't cop, we get at most 2 cop results tonight, so that's unfortunate.

New suggested night actions:
e goes blue, lifts down, plays C
roadrunner pulls energy, moves to white, plays C
faust cops silver (lift then red)
silver lifts up, cops e, does whatever
I fill white, play 2 C's
EFHW plays central C, moves red, fills energy
Awaclus comes center, gets a printout, refills energy

[EFHW]

Great if we've caught iguana in a lie (for real this time). I guess we're waiting to hear what he has to say about it?

For future reference, here's my take after rereading Awaclus. About 1/3 of his posts were on task. He has a couple OMGUS votes (silver ~361, Haddock ~1001), otherwise very much went with the flow in his votes. Did not scumhunt. The thing that stands out most for me as scummy is that in at least 4 of the on task posts he is deferring to the rest of town. Here are the 4 I noticed:

I had no idea Awaclus was playing until just now.

It was a bit pointless to participate in setup talk when I didn't have even the faintest recollection of what the setup was.

I know it's an unusual proposition, but you could just read the setup and then participate!

I did, but at that point you had already said we should stop with the setup talk.

Okay, I mean after a bit of thinking it turns out that Awaclus' play is just plain stupid as either alignment. So I guess that points to town!anti-town!Awaclus.

I shouldn't have confirmed Skumpy's roleblock claim?

But, Awaclus, can you now release the info on red actions, as I don't suppose we will get any more claims?

Should I just claim the full status print-out?

I did zone monitoring three times. Do I have to claim more at this point?

I'm mentioning this because it seems out of character to me. As scum, one worries more about what other people think and want. I would expect a lot more of:

However, I didn't have any red cards so that was impossible.

But it takes exactly how much thought to realize that Skumpy was going to try to use the Lift, and you were blocking him?

I didn't particularly care about that.

from town!Awaclus.

[Awaclus]

I'm mentioning this because it seems out of character to me.

It's not. I'm skipping past of a lot of the posts so I have to ask questions to keep up.

[iguanaiguana]

oh my heavens there must be some error for i am indeed towwwn

[silverspawn]

oh my heavens there must be some error for i am indeed towwwn

Now I'm convinced.

[iguanaiguana]

Yeah I'll share my thoughts on how fakeclaiming was impossible after the game. Would love to know how Space thought scum was supposed to play this because I had no clue.

[iguanaiguana]

Vote: iguana

[Roadrunner7671]

So is theorel's plan the plan?

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 5.1

EFHW (2): silverspawn, 2.71828.....
iguanaiguana (1): iguanaiguana
Not Voting (5): faust, EFHW, theorel, Awaclus, Roadrunner7671

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
D5 ends at 1.30pm forum time on Sunday 4th March.

[2.71828.....]

Vote: iguana

Seems right

[EFHW]

Since he has basically confessed, vote: iguana.

[faust]

So is theorel's plan the plan?

Yep.

[faust]

Vote: iguana

L-1

[silverspawn]

vote: iguanaiguana

See you tomorrow

[faust]

This vote counter is interesting:

Vote Count 2.final

gkrieg13 (7): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, LaLight, Awaclus, faust, Skumpy, EFHW
Awaclus (2): gkrieg13, Roadrunner7671
theorel (1): silverspawn
faust (1): Haddock
Not Voting (1): theorel

With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

Assuming that not all his partners voted for gkrieg, this only leaves RR and silver as potential scum.

theorel is conf!town, EFHW is very much town for exposing iguana, and Awaclus and e are townie, so that seems to fit.

[silverspawn]

It certainly doesn't only leave e and me as potential scum because there's at most 1 scum between us.

[faust]

It certainly doesn't only leave e and me as potential scum because there's at most 1 scum between us.

Well there's only 1 scum left, so I don't see how that's a problem.

[iguanaiguana]

Maybe I can prod you all to death.

Request modkills on faust, EFHW, theorel, silverspawn, Awaclus, e, Roadrunner

If it works out, I'd get MVP for sure

[silverspawn]

It certainly doesn't only leave e and me as potential scum because there's at most 1 scum between us.

Well there's only 1 scum left, so I don't see how that's a problem.

And it's not the player who townslipped twice!

[theorel]

Okay, well if e can't cop, we get at most 2 cop results tonight, so that's unfortunate.

New suggested night actions:
e goes blue, lifts down, plays C
roadrunner pulls energy, moves to white, plays C
faust cops silver (lift then red)
silver lifts up, cops e, does whatever
I fill white, play 2 C's
EFHW plays central C, moves red, fills energy
Awaclus comes center, gets a printout, refills energy

And if we do this plan, then we should have good reason to decide between rr and silver.

[EFHW]

Okay, well if e can't cop, we get at most 2 cop results tonight, so that's unfortunate.

New suggested night actions:
e goes blue, lifts down, plays C
roadrunner pulls energy, moves to white, plays C
faust cops silver (lift then red)
silver lifts up, cops e, does whatever
I fill white, play 2 C's
EFHW plays central C, moves red, fills energy
Awaclus comes center, gets a printout, refills energy

And if we do this plan, then we should have good reason to decide between rr and silver.

I think faust's argument that all 3 scum wouldn't have been on gkrieg's wagon is plausible, but we shouldn't take it too far.  I certainly wouldn't rule out Awaclus just based on that. And I'd want more reasons that just that to suspect silver. I guess we'll be getting that information tonight.

[theorel]

If all of those cop results come back town.  Then the only possible scum are roadrunner, EFHW, Awaclus, and faust (if Lalight doctored silver).

I don't think you would have made the claims you did if iguana was your partner.  Faust has seemed townie, plus the need for scum to doctor silver to cause a false-result.

But, we should also have the ability to cop 3 more times tomorrow, so if we lynch roadrunner and he ends up town (in this hypothetical), then we can cop the remaining players and determine scum.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 5.final

iguanaiguana (5): iguanaiguana, 2.71828....., EFHW, faust, silverspawn
Not Voting (3): theorel, Awaclus, Roadrunner7671

With 8 alive, it took 5 to lynch.

[SpaceAnemone]

Iguana has been lynched! He was a scummy Mafia impostor crew member!

Really, your timings for killing each other off don't fit at all well with the hours of availability for our PR-spin folks back here on Earth, you know. Haven't we already had the conversation about ground control office hours?

Right, onwards with the next Space Phase:

1: Roadrunner
2: EFHW
3: e
4: Awaclus
5: theorel
6: silverspawn
7: faust

N5 Space Phase begins now, and ends at 1700 forum time on Friday 2nd March. Please submit your card play in your personal QTs before this deadline.

Thread Locked.

[SpaceAnemone]

Good morning, crew! All in good health, I see!

I was hoping to have another installment of edits for your field manual, but I'm afraid the PR people are having a bit of sit-in protest around the print office, so we can't get you the relevant sheets just now. Still, you seem to be doign a great job of staying alive just now, so keep up the good work!


Vote Count 6.0

Not voting (7): faust, EFHW, theorel, silverspawn, Awaclus, e, Roadrunner

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
D6 begins now, and ends at 1.30pm forum time on Saturday 10th March.

Thread Unlocked!

Energy levels:
red pool: 2
white pool: 5
blue pool: 3

Upper Blue is still acting up, so that's going to be out of commission for the next phase again.

[2.71828.....]

My movements and C action in lower white were all successful

[2.71828.....]

I have 6 C actions remaining, so I can just play C actions for at least another 2 nights

[2.71828.....]

At this point, we can lynch randomly and probably win.

[2.71828.....]

So pending results from people I will vote anyone except theorel

[silverspawn]

e copped. e town.

[faust]

I copped silver. He's town.

[faust]

Vote: RR

[faust]

So pending results from people I will vote anyone except theorel

But I'm semi-confirmed town... and EFHW too.

[silverspawn]

I copped silver. He's town.

told you!

[faust]

I copped silver. He's town.

told you!

I still believe in the Cop Switch

[faust]

If you're town then you should stop faking stupid townslips in the game that I am modding while making genuine townslips in the other we are playing together.

[2.71828.....]

Vote: RR

Vote: RR

Works for me

(I've edited this post very slightly because while the vote was valid, it wasn't being picked up by my counter, and I don't have time to fix the counter right now...)

[Awaclus]

Should we come up with some plan again, before RR gets lynched?

[EFHW]

It sounds like e has us covered. People early in the order can cop.

[Awaclus]

Oh, I should probably post the status print out. It was 2x Cop.

[theorel]

It sounds like e has us covered. People early in the order can cop.

works for me.
vote: rr

[EFHW]

That's L-1

[theorel]

Note: at this point we have 3 100% confirmed town: silver, e, and myself.
faust and efhw are extremely likely town.

So, if rr turns out town, y'know don't investigate a confirmed town player.

[Awaclus]

Don't we just win here? e can block the kill so we'll have a simple majority of ICs on D8.

[faust]

Don't we just win here? e can block the kill so we'll have a simple majority of ICs on D8.

Well yes, it's been rather clear to me for a while that we're going to win. I kinda wish that the remaining scum would just throw the towel so we don't have to go throguh all the steps.

[EFHW]

I'm sure they agree with you.

[EFHW]

vote: RR

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 6.final

Roadrunner7671 (4): faust, 2.71828....., theorel, EFHW
Not Voting (3): silverspawn, Awaclus, Roadrunner7671

With 7 alive, it took 4 to lynch.

[SpaceAnemone]

Roadrunner has been lynched! He was an innocent Townie and you murdered him!

Oh my... This is not going to help us with the ongoing PR strike! Probably best you go off on another mission while this blows over...

1: silverspawn
2: Awaclus
3: EFHW
4: e
5: theorel
6: faust

N6 Space Phase begins now, and will end at 0900 forum time on Tuesday 6th March. Please submit your card play in your personal QTs before this deadline.

Thread Locked.

[SpaceAnemone]

Game Over: Townies Win!

Dear Crew! You've done it! The last of your miscreant imposter colleagues has capitulated, and now the mission is safe. Please return to earth without killing anyone else, and most importantly, without disrupting any of those profitable science experiments. Thank you! Ground control out!

EFHW the Scum has handed herself in.
The remaining Townies, faust, silver, e, Theorel and Awaclus survived the mission!

Mod QT: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/8GfYMNStwMRu
Scum QT: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/D6JuZYcKvNf
Speccy: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/jZgaCGSA6hTj

[iguanaiguana]

Whelp.

Next time I am scum I promise to be uh twice as energetic as I was this game

[SpaceAnemone]

Players are free to post their personal QTs or not as they wish.

Somewhere in the Mod QT there's a link to the Google Doc where I recorded all of the night resolution. It was a slow and tricky process, and I tried very hard not to make any errors, but it's not inconceivable that someone might dig something up if they're feeling particularly like they have nothing more worthwhile to do :-P

I'm thinking faust should be MVP for his martialing of town, but I'm happy to leave it open for discussion for a short while if anyone else wants to chime in.

[SpaceAnemone]

Oh yeah: Thread unlocked forever!

[EFHW]

I'm sure they agree with you.

[2.71828.....]

I think after seeing it played out there are a few changes that could be made to make the setup work.

scum fakeclaiming was impossible since it took an action to do the NK. Makes it hard for scum to say "I did X, Y, and Z" when Y was the NK and you will eventually be caught in a lie.  So, make the scum NK and factional rather than individual.  That or only allow town to do 2/3 actions and then scum can use the third as the NK action.  So, I did "X, nothing, Z" is a standard claim, but scum could actually do "X, NK, Z"

I enjoyed the setup after I figured it out, but I think town was always going to win (seeing how it played out)

[Skumpy]

I think after seeing it played out there are a few changes that could be made to make the setup work.

scum fakeclaiming was impossible since it took an action to do the NK. Makes it hard for scum to say "I did X, Y, and Z" when Y was the NK and you will eventually be caught in a lie.  So, make the scum NK and factional rather than individual.  That or only allow town to do 2/3 actions and then scum can use the third as the NK action.  So, I did "X, nothing, Z" is a standard claim, but scum could actually do "X, NK, Z"

Fakeclaiming was tough, but I don't think impossible. If Lalight had been truthful about when the lift was used N2 and avoided contradicting Haddock (I'm not sure why that lie was necessary), scum might've been able to last a bit longer. The biggest problem is that the NK is too tough to use, both because of the lower deck restriction and that it's too easy to block. Once scum falls behind in numbers, a little bit of planning makes it easy for town to both stop the night deaths and clear their fellow townies.

But still, nice job team. I'm good with faust taking home the MVP.

[silverspawn]

I think fakeclaiming is fine. Town has limited monitoring options.

The only problem I see is that the NK is too easy to block

[iguanaiguana]

That was not the only problem. Everything took energy, so I could not claim to do something I didn't without creating a publicly visible energy discrepancy.

[EFHW]

Almost anything we thought of doing was easily discoverable. Town just had too much information. We got three mislynches and didn't come close to winning.

[EFHW]

Almost anything we thought of doing was easily discoverable. Town just had too much information. We got three mislynches and didn't come close to winning.

We also made some significant mistakes, for sure. But it was pretty much doomed once everyone got belowdecks. It's fun to play this kind of game as town because you finally have information to work with after all the usual games of shooting in the dark (so to speak). Turns out it's less fun as scum! There were so many interacting pieces. That was neat - I like complexity - but it also meant any action we took or didn't take could be verified/detected in several ways - energy, cards, location, availability of an action for other players, status print out, tracking, lifts. Town made the most of the tools available to them. They played well.

[EFHW]

iguana - did you try to kill faust N4? I thought you tried to kill e.

[faust]

I think after seeing it played out there are a few changes that could be made to make the setup work.

scum fakeclaiming was impossible since it took an action to do the NK. Makes it hard for scum to say "I did X, Y, and Z" when Y was the NK and you will eventually be caught in a lie.  So, make the scum NK and factional rather than individual.  That or only allow town to do 2/3 actions and then scum can use the third as the NK action.  So, I did "X, nothing, Z" is a standard claim, but scum could actually do "X, NK, Z"

I enjoyed the setup after I figured it out, but I think town was always going to win (seeing how it played out)

I don't think it is too town-favored. If scum gets the first two mislynches, then town will never be able to effectively coordinate. But scum needs to lock in the game early; they cannot afford to bus. That all scum lynched gkrieg was an error in judgement. How good it looked didn't make up for the fact that it gave town more time.

[faust]

Though I agree that it would be better if things were harder to detect, and it would be better if scum had a comeback chance. This way the game is just locked after town gets an upper hand.

Still, creating a working open RMM setup is a huge challenge that I personally tend to shy away from and this worked out pretty well for that.

[faust]

Reading the mod QT: There should absolutely never be re-subs into a game when those players have additional information (which mcmc did, about their N1 actions).

[faust]

Oh, and giving scum orders in the personal QT is bad practice I believe. What was the reason for this decision?

[EFHW]

I don't think there was any way to save gkrieg. He made mistakes that hurt us, but damage control was our only option. It wasn't the bussing.

In no way did we play a perfect game, I just don't think that was the problem.  All three of the scum who were lynched made setup mistakes leading directly to their deaths. I made one too but covered it up ok. Many town also made mistakes, but they weren't as costly.

[EFHW]

Scum should be able to have enough choices to weather one loss. I really don't see how you can say the game didn't favor town.

You thought I was semi-confirmed town and I still had no option but to concede.

[EFHW]

How would two mislynches have prevented town from coordinating?

[faust]

Scum should be able to have enough choices to weather one loss. I really don't see how you can say the game didn't favor town.

You thought I was semi-confirmed town and I still had no option but to concede.

Scum starts out with really good numbers (4/14) to make up for the fact that they have limited options in the long run. It's just that they've gotta use this to decide the game early on. Like, if the first 2 mislynches are on town, I don't see town managing a win here. It's just that the required scum play here is to not play for towncred, and that was difficult to see from the beginning.

I would say scum would have needed daychat probably. Coordinating and discussing claims is super important for them here. I also think that setups like this require unproportionally more work for scum to play well than for town, and that is of course a problem. I actually drew a sigh of relief when I saw that I was town here.

[theorel]

Although I agree with faust that the set-up isn't necessarily unbalanced (just harder work-wise for scum), it might be too swingy.  I think a couple tweaks could help with that.

I think the set-up would be more fun, if there were only 3 scum, but the actions were tweaked to give scum more options and to make coordination more problematic.  In particular, it seems to me like scum's best options in the current set-up involve taking the pro-town powers in order to prevent town getting full value out of them...but then if scum fake-claims, they have to figure out some ineffective action they could have taken.  And even then, claiming ineffective actions can leave scum exposed if town's actions were largely effective.

I think the lower deck blocks night-kill is a bit overkill, and could be removed.
And then, say, lower blue Sabotage was "Cause a player's card action or movement to fail."  This would open up scum's fake-claim possibilities because if they claim a failed action (when they simply didn't attempt it), town has to allow for the possibility of sabotage.  It also really hinders full coordination because that tells scum exactly where to use a sabotage to hurt (and again scum that fails to take their coordinated action was maybe sabotaged out of it).

Some other thoughts:
-Lower Red/Blue could have A and C swapped, limiting town's monitor abilities.
-Another sabotage action (maybe lower-central C?) to "steal" cards from another player (maybe reduce that player's free card draw to 1 for that turn?  So it can't stack to lock someone out, but it really hinders town's options, and makes them want to use the card-draw as counterplay?).

Possibly offering sabotage options in upper A/B actions, still costing energy?  Like if, the cop-switch was a sabotage on upper Blue A...then scum can go for it, and then fake-claim that they've used weak visitor.  Status printout denies their fake-claim then, but that's no worse than the current situation, and if the only status printout is in scum's hands it really opens them up.

You could also do sabotage in the form of, say, "Strongman" so scum can force a nk through any possible protection with the right card-play.

I think daychat is a good idea.  It's tough enough to detect a lie, which means working out a good enough fake-claim is even tougher.  At least with daychat, if you have just one player that can work out the lies you can get a safe-claim for everyone.  Whereas, without daychat, you need each scum-player to be able to come up with their own safe-claim.

Although ultimately playing scum is going to take more work in a set-up like this (simply because of the amount of info potentially available to town), I think that work can have significant pay-off if scum has the tools at their disposal to frame town.

Final thought: near-unlimited nightkill protection for town is, I think, ultimately OP.  While letting scum "fail" any single night-action could help with that, some sort of ability to overcome it is probably ideal.  As it is currently, you can essentially force scum to help block the nk, and they can't do anything about it.  If scum has a power to pierce it, then you don't know whether someone failed to help stop the nk or if scum got in a pierce action somewhere.

[Awaclus]

If you're town then you should stop faking stupid townslips in the game that I am modding while making genuine townslips in the other we are playing together.

This is pretty crappy though, if you're actually trying to win both games and not just playing one for the sake of looking better in the other.

[EFHW]

If you're town then you should stop faking stupid townslips in the game that I am modding while making genuine townslips in the other we are playing together.

This is pretty crappy though, if you're actually trying to win both games and not just playing one for the sake of looking better in the other.

Does it violate the rule about not talking about ongoing games?

[O]

If a setup is only balanced if scum absolutely cannot get lynched in the first two days, it's not actually balanced. It definitely seemed from an outside perspective that scums hands were tied too much by energy visibility

[Awaclus]

If you're town then you should stop faking stupid townslips in the game that I am modding while making genuine townslips in the other we are playing together.

This is pretty crappy though, if you're actually trying to win both games and not just playing one for the sake of looking better in the other.

Does it violate the rule about not talking about ongoing games?

I don't think it does, and I don't think that rule is supposed to prevent this in the first place. The point is to prevent players from communicating outside of the thread while the game is ongoing, and that didn't happen here since faust didn't communicate anything until the game was over. You are allowed to follow other games and read into them, and even if you weren't, that rule would be impossible to enforce especially because it's hard to not read into something you've seen at least subconsciously. It just creates a conflict of interests where you can sometimes gain an advantage in a game by playing another game suboptimally.

I guess the only way to solve the issue would be to only play one game at a time.

[Skumpy]

In the heat of all the excitement about how unbearably atrocious the setup was, I forgot:

Thanks Space for modding! It was great fun, even though I got sabotaged and thrown to the scumspacewolves along the way