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[Chris is me]

I am pretty happy with where Ratcatcher sits. It's probably the lowest opportunity cost trasher, and it plays a unique role among trashing cards. It's not so bad you would prefer no trasher to it on many boards (trade route).

It is uniquely good because it gets out of the way and stays there unless you use it. No trasher has less long term impact on your deck. It has a niche in being able to ditch that Chapel without leaving any residue in your deck, and that's handy.

It's not stellar but it gets the job done. Raze is better, sure.

[Aleimon Thimble]

I am pretty happy with where Ratcatcher sits. It's probably the lowest opportunity cost trasher, and it plays a unique role among trashing cards. It's not so bad you would prefer no trasher to it on many boards (trade route).

It is uniquely good because it gets out of the way and stays there unless you use it. No trasher has less long term impact on your deck. It has a niche in being able to ditch that Chapel without leaving any residue in your deck, and that's handy.

It's not stellar but it gets the job done. Raze is better, sure.

Well yeah, I agree, Ratcatcher has a niche, it's not completely awful. If nothing else it's a very easy $2 buy that never harms your deck (outside of terminal draw-BM and similar cases). And trashing is always good. But as far as trashing goes, Ratcatcher is so incredibly slow that place #13 is definitely too high. It's an average $2 card at best.

[Chris is me]

I am pretty happy with where Ratcatcher sits. It's probably the lowest opportunity cost trasher, and it plays a unique role among trashing cards. It's not so bad you would prefer no trasher to it on many boards (trade route).

It is uniquely good because it gets out of the way and stays there unless you use it. No trasher has less long term impact on your deck. It has a niche in being able to ditch that Chapel without leaving any residue in your deck, and that's handy.

It's not stellar but it gets the job done. Raze is better, sure.

Well yeah, I agree, Ratcatcher has a niche, it's not completely awful. If nothing else it's a very easy $2 buy that never harms your deck (outside of terminal draw-BM and similar cases). And trashing is always good. But as far as trashing goes, Ratcatcher is so incredibly slow that place #13 is definitely too high. It's an average $2 card at best.

Consider the average $2 card is #19, #12 ain't bad.

Also worth noting that Ratcatcher is oddly enough one of the best trashers for terminal draw BM! Staying out of your deck is very handy.

[Limetime]

Fool's gold is actually mainly a payload card. In engines where you can draw deck it is 4$ for 2$ 1buy. If you want some examples wanderingwinder has exemplified this in at least on of his videos.

[Qvist]

I also don't understand why Qvist calls it a "strong trasher"

Well to be fair I called nearly all the cards in this part strong, I have Ratcatcher at #18, I definitely agree that it should be lower. It's still strong (upper half material) because it is a cantrip trasher, it's just too slow to be better. I also said that you need many of those.

[faust]

Fool's gold is actually mainly a payload card. In engines where you can draw deck it is 4$ for 2$ 1buy. If you want some examples wanderingwinder has exemplified this in at least on of his videos.

True, but then it doesn't really deserve to be that much better than Poor House.

[werothegreat]

Fool's gold is actually mainly a payload card. In engines where you can draw deck it is 4$ for 2$ 1buy. If you want some examples wanderingwinder has exemplified this in at least on of his videos.

True, but then it doesn't really deserve to be that much better than Poor House.

Let's make a pros and cons list of going for Fool's Gold over Poor House.  Let's start with cons:
* Poor House is ever so slightly cheaper in a way that is almost never meaningful
* Poor House can be Throned/King's Courted
Now pros:
* Doesn't take an Action to play
* Doesn't mind you having other Treasures in hand
* Plays nicely with Stables
* Doesn't take an Action to play
* Has a nifty opener with Nomad Camp
* Is great with Treasure gainers, like Mint and Mine
* Doesn't take an Action to play

[Qvist]

And the final Part 4

[Chris is me]

I think the top ten is mostly right. Peasant is better than Page, Save is better than FG / Courtyard, but close enough. Later today I'll do one of those Adam style "compare my list to this list" mega posts

[ThetaSigma12]

I think the top ten is mostly right. Peasant is better than Page, Save is better than FG / Courtyard, but close enough. Later today I'll do one of those Adam style "compare my list to this list" mega posts

I was gonna post all of this. Honestly, I don't think Courtyard should be in there, it needs to be replaced by Delve.

[Beyond Awesome]

I have Encampment at 5, and I may be underrating it. You guys have no idea how crazy good that card is.

[Limetime]

I have Encampment at 5, and I may be underrating it. You guys have no idea how crazy good that card is.

I have encampment at 10. There are a bunch of good cards.

[Limetime]

I think the top ten is mostly right. Peasant is better than Page, Save is better than FG / Courtyard, but close enough. Later today I'll do one of those Adam style "compare my list to this list" mega posts

I was gonna post all of this. Honestly, I don't think Courtyard should be in there, it needs to be replaced by Delve.

Why does everyone love silver now that it's two dollars, 0 buys?

[Beyond Awesome]

I think the top ten is mostly right. Peasant is better than Page, Save is better than FG / Courtyard, but close enough. Later today I'll do one of those Adam style "compare my list to this list" mega posts

I was gonna post all of this. Honestly, I don't think Courtyard should be in there, it needs to be replaced by Delve.

Why does everyone love silver now that it's two dollars, 0 buys?

I don't. Delve is okay, but nothing great.

[aku_chi]

Why does everyone love silver now that it's two dollars, 0 buys?

You don't have to love a card to believe it's strong.  See Cultist, Rebuild, Urchin, etc...  Delve powers up a lot of money strategies.  The ability to buy Silver + action on $6 or $7 is huge.  Or Silver + Province on $10+.  Terminal draw + Delve is really strong (especially Courtyard).  Strong junker + Delve is often going to be a dominant combination.  Then there are the cards that synergize with Silver, like: Storyteller, Counterfeit, and Feodum.  Delve is also good in many openings, even when you're making an engine.  Delve is good in a 3/4 opening with a power $2.  Occasionally, double Delve + $3 trasher is going to be a strong opening.  Delve + $5 card will usually be a great opening.

Personally, I'm looking forward to playing with Delve.  It looks like the kind of event that will make moneyish strategies more interesting to play, especially as it minimizes awkward price points (similar to Save).  I already tend to pursue moneyish strategies when the engine is weak, and Delve be a strong push in that direction.  Time will tell how powerful it is.  I suspect it compares favorably with Fool's Gold.

[Roadrunner7671]

So who wants to kick off the annual discussion about if there will ever be a $s card better than Chapel?

[ThetaSigma12]

So who wants to kick off the annual discussion about if there will ever be a $s card better than Chapel?

I put peasant over Chapel.

[werothegreat]

So who wants to kick off the annual discussion about if there will ever be a $s card better than Chapel?

Choutpel

- Action

+1 Action

Trash up to 4 Victory cards from your hand.  Put the rest back in any order.

[Roadrunner7671]

So who wants to kick off the annual discussion about if there will ever be a $s card better than Chapel?

I put peasant over Chapel.

Why?

So who wants to kick off the annual discussion about if there will ever be a $s card better than Chapel?

Choutpel

- Action

+1 Action

Trash up to 4 Victory cards from your hand.  Put the rest back in any order.

I appreciate that 

[schadd]

fool's gold sux
we're warming up to peasant > page

[trivialknot]

Fool's gold is actually mainly a payload card. In engines where you can draw deck it is 4$ for 2$ 1buy. If you want some examples wanderingwinder has exemplified this in at least on of his videos.

True, but then it doesn't really deserve to be that much better than Poor House.

Let's make a pros and cons list of going for Fool's Gold over Poor House.  Let's start with cons:
* Poor House is ever so slightly cheaper in a way that is almost never meaningful
* Poor House can be Throned/King's Courted
Now pros:
* Doesn't take an Action to play
* Doesn't mind you having other Treasures in hand
* Plays nicely with Stables
* Doesn't take an Action to play
* Has a nifty opener with Nomad Camp
* Is great with Treasure gainers, like Mint and Mine
* Doesn't take an Action to play

You missed a con:  You can't put Lost Arts on Fool's Gold.  Lost Arts on Poor House is really good!

[Limetime]

Fool's gold is actually mainly a payload card. In engines where you can draw deck it is 4$ for 2$ 1buy. If you want some examples wanderingwinder has exemplified this in at least on of his videos.

True, but then it doesn't really deserve to be that much better than Poor House.

Let's make a pros and cons list of going for Fool's Gold over Poor House.  Let's start with cons:
* Poor House is ever so slightly cheaper in a way that is almost never meaningful
* Poor House can be Throned/King's Courted
Now pros:
* Doesn't take an Action to play
* Doesn't mind you having other Treasures in hand
* Plays nicely with Stables
* Doesn't take an Action to play
* Has a nifty opener with Nomad Camp
* Is great with Treasure gainers, like Mint and Mine
* Doesn't take an Action to play

You missed a con:  You can't put Lost Arts on Fool's Gold.  Lost Arts on Poor House is really good!

Engines with fools gold as payload a lost arts on something else are better than engines without that. I don't know why you want poor house in a non engine.

[trivialknot]

You missed a con:  You can't put Lost Arts on Fool's Gold.  Lost Arts on Poor House is really good!

Engines with fools gold as payload a lost arts on something else are better than engines without that. I don't know why you want poor house in a non engine.

The joke is that Poor House is much improved by being non-terminal, but Fool's Gold is non-terminal to begin with so it's not much of a con for Fool's Gold.

Lost Arts/Poor House can be good though.

[SirSlugma]

I don't think Chapel will be topped by any of these cards, but I do think Peasant ends up ahead of Page in the long run.

Also, I still don't know how to properly rank Save/Alms/Borrow.  They're all just like things you do when they're on the board, but their "importance" relative to actual cards that go in your deck is weird to evaluate.  (I get that every event is this way, but most of them are core parts of a strategy.  These are all super tactical and get used every time they're out, to some extent.)

[aku_chi]

Also, I still don't know how to properly rank Save/Alms/Borrow.  They're all just like things you do when they're on the board, but their "importance" relative to actual cards that go in your deck is weird to evaluate.  (I get that every event is this way, but most of them are core parts of a strategy.  These are all super tactical and get used every time they're out, to some extent.)

Two methods for rating/ranking arbitrary card-shaped thing X, which work for Alms, Borrow, and Save:

Abstract evaluation: On average, how much of a positive impact does X make when it's in the kingdom.
Concrete evaluation: In an average random kingdom including X, how much of an advantage (win% or similar) does a player get if their opponent cannot buy or gain X.