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[ashersky]

ok. So, I thinking PPS actually helped his newbie friend, breaking our traps, So it is either SA or Pacovf (?). SA is more likely. I'll reread interactions with PPS.

Also, I think I am an IC, catching PPS on this scumslip, am I not?

Well, you might have been close, had you not highlighted it yourself just now.

Now it seems like the whole thing was staged for this purpose.

[ashersky]

Big rereads planned -- no fast lynching.

[SpaceAnemone]

ok. So, I thinking PPS actually helped his newbie friend, breaking our traps, So it is either SA or Pacovf (?). SA is more likely. I'll reread interactions with PPS.

Huh.. or you! :-P Actually, it really doesn't follow, because we know enough about the set-up to be sure that there was no rolecop to be outed anyway, so if that was PPS's motivation for diffusing Ash's fishing attempt, then it was a very silly one.

Also, I think I am an IC, catching PPS on this scumslip, am I not?

Yeah, I'm willing to go with that today at least. If you're scum, you've become scary awfully quickly given that you're pretty much at the same newbie level as me.

[pacovf]

So basically, in descending order of towniness...

SpaceAnemone is the towniest town ever
Lalight caught the scumslip (whether it was real or not is irrelevant, it got PPS lynched)
J Reggie did the fake hammer thing
ashersky quickhammered PPS

So there are reasons to believe them all to be town, so PoE does not work. I will have to reread for incriminating evidence before I can put a vote down.

Big rereads planned -- no fast lynching.

[LaLight]

Argh.. really sorry for not being present today :-( I've had a big concert this evening, and it went amazingly, but I've just come home from the afterparty and it's too late to do thinking... though I'd have a chance to phonepost between the rehearsals and concert, but I was rushed off my feet. I'll definitely make time to do proper reading tomorrow :-)

Being at a concert... Sounds scummy to me! 

This joke is scummy.  Plus emoticon.

Oh, not you as well!! Silver seemed to take issue with my use of smilies right from my first game :-( For some of us, they're just useful forms of written communication, and they don't mean anything at all about our scumminess or lack thereof!

Scum always says that.

I think it's time for a read list:

Would lynch:

Zigaton (as far as I am concerned, his second post was super scummy. Might be me OMGUSing, I am hoping it isn't)
PPS (jumping on easy votes, makes me feel uneasy)
Lalight (has done some things typically attributed to scum)

McGarnacle (don't feel very strongly about this one, but will vote if necessary)

Would not lynch:

SpaceAnemone (strongish townread)
RoadRunner (mild townread)

No opinion:

ashersky (not as confrontational as he usually is, dunno how to feel about that)
J Reggie (barely present)

Would lynch: lalight, paco, mcgarg, zig
Might lynch: Space, RR, J Reg
Rather not lynch: PPS

The difference between would and might is not a lot.

Basically I have one town read.  That's...not great.

Interesting, I hate when I have a bunch of town reads all,over the place, especially early on. Also I am suspicious of people who read town on everyone except a couple people, it is an easy scum tactic to softly direct for mislynches. I mean, yeah, when someone is scummy they are scummy and should make the list and not everyone is going to be scummy like that.

Today, I hold the idea we will actually hit scum very loosely and look for the most informative flip which is still pretty loose as well, it's D1 after all. I've got no strong town reads and no strong scum reads. Being a newbie game I suppose it's possible the Paco/LaLight pair have shown their hand that easily but it's a stretch. Paco omgusing me doesn't really sway me off the idea.

All that said, there's no one on my wouldn't lynch list today and probably wouldn't be unless we got someone to L-1 and they claimed a PR without a counter. Everyone is pretty null to me. RR gives me a faint town read.

Paco omgusing me doesn't really sway me off the idea.

So I wanted to get back to you about my bad feeling.

See, what I normally see about other players, when they get invested in a game as you are, is that half their cases or reads seem to come out of nowhere. Half the time they won't ever explain them. And the other half, even after they explain them, there's a good 40% the reasons will seem weird to me! Best case scenario, they just OMGUS people and bend themselves backwards to find a reason to find them scummy. This is only more true in your case, since your thought process and mine are very different, from what I remember playing with you or reading your games.

But here, you've jumped on the "hard claim town" and "overly helpful" cliche arguments for finding someone scummy (I was aware that opening with a town claim is considered scummy in this forum, I wanted to see who would jump on it). Super safe, super forgettable reasons and votes. I am wary of that.

Furthermore, now you give us this:

Today, I hold the idea we will actually hit scum very loosely and look for the most informative flip which is still pretty loose as well, it's D1 after all.

The "I don't really think we will hit scum, so might as well lynch the most informative flip" is an easy way to get rid of helpful town without being accountable about it. Sure, I dislike lynching lurkers D1 for this very reason, but there's a difference between not wanting to lynch a lurker and what you are saying.

I am also uneasy about your soft-buddying Ash here and here:

Basically I have one town read.  That's...not great.

Interesting, I hate when I have a bunch of town reads all,over the place, especially early on. Also I am suspicious of people who read town on everyone except a couple people, it is an easy scum tactic to softly direct for mislynches.

vote: LaLight

Yeah, mr. A little too helpful Vote: LaLight

Actually, I think I am going to put my vote where my words are, vote: PPS.


Note: 5 out of 8 players have expressed an interest in lynching me, so it's kinda hard for me to vote for someone without OMGUSing them...
[/quote]

I think I've been rather conversational and trying to fill in the gaps where needed. I'm not sure what is not constructive about my posts. The game has actually moved along fairly well for D1. Once a flip or two is in things will pick up quite a bit because everyone will have their interpretation of what it means. Also, if we have any night action results from PRs it gets especially thick.

At this point it is about corralling the votes towards a lynch. I'm still currently happy with my vote where it is as I've seen nothing that convinces me it is in the wrong place nor that there might be a better place.

I'm pretty sure you and Ash have something else entirely going on at a higher level, but I want to believe it's meta-stuff rooted experience rather than malice. Besides, I think we've already agreed that if you two are scum together we're screwed anyway.

I don't like the corralling thing you mention, though... isn't the whole point of D1 was to get people talking and into the game? Otherwise, why would it be so long. We have zero information to go on, so we have to make people talk to each other.

Unofficial Vote Count

pingpongsam (1): pacovf
LaLight (1): pingpongsam
McGarnacle (3): SpaceAnemone, Roadrunner7671, LaLight
RoadRunner7671 (1): ashersky
Zigaton (1): McGarnacle
pacovf (1): Zigaton

Not Voting (1): J Reggie

Ultra-helpy LaLight is just town LaLight as far as I've seen elsewhere, so that's not a D1 option for me. I seem to have started the one and only actual wagon, so if you just wanted to kill people, you'd be on that one instead. @Ash and @Paco, what am I missing here?

Why didn't they ask PPS here?

Anyhow, since I have a busy day ahead;

confTown:
McGarnacle

Maybe town:
J Reggie
SA

Null (from light to dark):
pacovf
ashersky
zigaton

Scum:
RR
LaLight

So I've been doing a re-read, intending to make a whole reads list. The "scary three" of Ash, PPS and Paco are difficult, because I think they could just manipulate stuff too easily to be read by the rest of us. (Originally I'd put Paco in the same bunch as JR and RR, but I think he seems to know what's going on a lot more, so I'm counting him as super-experienced now).

I think LaLight is being absolutely town!LaLight, and McGarnacle is IC, which is nice. Are we giving Zigaton a D1 pass? It's not like it's possible for him to be the only scum out there anyway, and leaving a less-experienced scum for later probably makes a lot of sense.

So then I'm left with JR and RR, and I expected my reread to back up JR's case on RR, but it doesn't. JR is so absent early on that he'd posted more stuff before it had started than in its early pages. He voted for Paco because of his opening statement about not being Mafia (#68), then later made a point of saying it's something you'd only do as town (#96), and then goes on to say he's town a whole bunch of times, which is essentially the same thing as being not Mafia.

He's quite jumpy about votes, like saying he won't vote for Zigaton, then voting for him, then going back to RR, who he'd been voting for earlier. Actually, he seems to be quite against RR in general, when RR's actually not really said anything too suspicious (though it would be good if he'd interact more!). Do scums do fake hammers to look townie? Especially ones who know there are some newbie-but-learning people like me and LaLight who might then assume he's good? I think this might be like WIFOM, but I'm still generally not liking it.

Vote: J Reggie

I reread the whole day and it seems less happened than I thought did. I swear RR/LaLight are the scum team. There's entirely too much collaboration for there not to be a link. RR is obviously coaching at some points. LaLight is clearly taking direction right along with making sure to vote me.

Big town read on Paco (despite him leading the charge on me). He's playing entirely too forthright to be scum. If he's scum he is super good at it. I mean, I think he's also being super good at town.

Ash... ... he's been quite cryptic this game. I'm not reading scum but I'm not feeling real good about his refusals to respond to questions directed at him. At any rate, I think scum!ash would be more interested in answering questions to control the narrative.

J Reggie looks town as hell. Not sure why anyone has voted him at all except maybe for the fake hammer thing which was clearly town play to me.

SA and Ziggy are both cryptic to me in wholly different ways. SA is participatory and lucid and being a newbie with this much material posted I think scum!SA would have shown their hand somewhere and I haven't seen it. Ziggy, well, there's the language thing which I think is cutting both ways. He is entirely too cryptic for me to read one way or the other. Big fat null on him. If he is scum he certainly isn't controlling the game.

McGooGooGaJube is clearly dead town walking.

I intend to post soem response to Paco's analysis on me but feel very confident with Vote: RR which is L-1

That whole day ended without me having a chance to get on.  Didn't access the forums all day.  Was happy with the lynch, sad we were wrong.

RR's been having a rough go of it.

Doesn't change much for my reads.  Still like PPS for scum.  Probably partners with J Reggie?

For now, town on SA/McGarg.

Scum on PPS/Pacovf.

Scratch that last post with J Reggie.  Need to re-read that one.

okay. Long post here.

My reads after rereading:

Pacovf: Towniest town
Ash: Seems scummy. Also pressured PPS D2 out of the blue like they made this deal N1. Maybe even they tried to help newbies and made a deal for PPS to scumslip and look if anyone would react. Then this vote/unvote Ash's thing when PPS scumslipped.
SA: No single interaction with PPS. Looks scummy
Me: IC
JReggie. No Interactions, no voting for PPS and no usefulness. He's my best choice for now.
Vote: Jreggie

PPE some

[LaLight]

I think we should lynch JReggie now. Then things will be clearer

[SpaceAnemone]

I think I've been rather conversational and trying to fill in the gaps where needed. I'm not sure what is not constructive about my posts. The game has actually moved along fairly well for D1. Once a flip or two is in things will pick up quite a bit because everyone will have their interpretation of what it means. Also, if we have any night action results from PRs it gets especially thick.

At this point it is about corralling the votes towards a lynch. I'm still currently happy with my vote where it is as I've seen nothing that convinces me it is in the wrong place nor that there might be a better place.

I'm pretty sure you and Ash have something else entirely going on at a higher level, but I want to believe it's meta-stuff rooted experience rather than malice. Besides, I think we've already agreed that if you two are scum together we're screwed anyway.

I don't like the corralling thing you mention, though... isn't the whole point of D1 was to get people talking and into the game? Otherwise, why would it be so long. We have zero information to go on, so we have to make people talk to each other.

Unofficial Vote Count

pingpongsam (1): pacovf
LaLight (1): pingpongsam
McGarnacle (3): SpaceAnemone, Roadrunner7671, LaLight
RoadRunner7671 (1): ashersky
Zigaton (1): McGarnacle
pacovf (1): Zigaton

Not Voting (1): J Reggie

Ultra-helpy LaLight is just town LaLight as far as I've seen elsewhere, so that's not a D1 option for me. I seem to have started the one and only actual wagon, so if you just wanted to kill people, you'd be on that one instead. @Ash and @Paco, what am I missing here?

Why didn't they ask PPS here?

I didn't direct the question at PPS because the rest of that post was targeted at him, so the "you" I was referring to was PPS. Early on, I wanted to balance out the three oldies so that we could use them as sort of detectors to tell when one of them might be being scummy even if I didn't catch it first-hand myself, so I wanted to know what Ash and Paco thought of PPS's behaviour there.

[J Reggie]

What? I definitely voted for PPS. Also I'm town, so don't lynch me.

[J Reggie]

So I'm trying to Wifom with PPS's apparent outing of ash. Maybe it's useless. Not where he claimed ash was his partner but where he said he had to be talked out of claiming cop. Ash or I would have been the ones to talk him out of that, and I'm not scum so that points to ash if that's true. The question is, did PPS think ADK this through in order to incriminate a vet when his partner was a newbie, or did he not think that saying that would narrow the lynch pool that much because there are usually more players who would talk him out of it.

[J Reggie]

I think ADK was supposed to be all. He's not even in this game.

[ashersky]

So I'm trying to Wifom with PPS's apparent outing of ash. Maybe it's useless. Not where he claimed ash was his partner but where he said he had to be talked out of claiming cop. Ash or I would have been the ones to talk him out of that, and I'm not scum so that points to ash if that's true. The question is, did PPS think ADK this through in order to incriminate a vet when his partner was a newbie, or did he not think that saying that would narrow the lynch pool that much because there are usually more players who would talk him out of it.

I'd suspect paco over you for the cop thing.

But why are you trying to glean anything from scum!trolling?

[SpaceAnemone]

I think we should lynch JReggie now. Then things will be clearer

Where was your zeal for lynching him when I was making my case in D1? I don't like how he keeps just telling us he's town or IC or something without making other cases :-(

PPS: Okay, at least he's saying things now...

[LaLight]

Even the name of our hero is "Slap J" now, lol

[J Reggie]

So I'm trying to Wifom with PPS's apparent outing of ash. Maybe it's useless. Not where he claimed ash was his partner but where he said he had to be talked out of claiming cop. Ash or I would have been the ones to talk him out of that, and I'm not scum so that points to ash if that's true. The question is, did PPS think ADK this through in order to incriminate a vet when his partner was a newbie, or did he not think that saying that would narrow the lynch pool that much because there are usually more players who would talk him out of it.

I'd suspect paco over you for the cop thing.

But why are you trying to glean anything from scum!trolling?

 Because I'm not sure the cop thing was trolling. Also there's probably some psychology that goes into it. Like if I were good at that I might be able to tell who his partner was by what he said there.

[SpaceAnemone]

PPS: Okay, at least he's saying things now...

That's supposed to be PPE, isn't it! Guess what's on my mind :-P

[pacovf]

While I generally agree that PPS's comment about having to be talked out of claiming cop is the most likely to be true, I still think basing ourselves on post-lynch talk is just a huge pile of smoldering WIFOM, so eh.

And yes, I would expect people to suspect me more over it than you, based on our playstyles (and ashersky over either of us, just due to seniority). In any case, despite how brash PPS is, I would expect him to respect the will of a newbie!scumpartner in a newbie game. So... eh.

[ashersky]

Can someone compile a list of everyone PPS voted for?  I'm on iPad and can't do anything useful.

I did see pacovf was his first vote of the game, so that's a point against pacovf.

[SpaceAnemone]

Can someone compile a list of everyone PPS voted for?  I'm on iPad and can't do anything useful.

Paco @ #69
LaLight @ #132
RR @ #445

He unvoted the post before voting for RR, but was on LaLight for all the intervening time.

[pacovf]

A lot more interesting would be to see who tried to redirect away from PPS during D1. Losing scum D1 in a 2-player scum team is basically game over, so mafia would want to avoid that by all means.

I want to do a full reread, but won't really have time until Sunday...

[ashersky]

Can someone compile a list of everyone PPS voted for?  I'm on iPad and can't do anything useful.

Paco @ #69
LaLight @ #132
RR @ #445

He unvoted the post before voting for RR, but was on LaLight for all the intervening time.

That's interesting... (someone call IG)

[ashersky]

A lot more interesting would be to see who tried to redirect away from PPS during D1. Losing scum D1 in a 2-player scum team is basically game over, so mafia would want to avoid that by all means.

I want to do a full reread, but won't really have time until Sunday...

Was there ever really a wagon on PPS?

[pacovf]

The way I remember it, PPS looked like the lynch, until people started moving to RR. I have to reread though.

[ashersky]

I will now point out that PPS foiling my Rolecop claim plan was clearly scum not liking my town plan to catch scum.

[ashersky]

I reread the whole day and it seems less happened than I thought did. I swear RR/LaLight are the scum team. There's entirely too much collaboration for there not to be a link. RR is obviously coaching at some points. LaLight is clearly taking direction right along with making sure to vote me.

Big town read on Paco (despite him leading the charge on me). He's playing entirely too forthright to be scum. If he's scum he is super good at it. I mean, I think he's also being super good at town.

Ash... ... he's been quite cryptic this game. I'm not reading scum but I'm not feeling real good about his refusals to respond to questions directed at him. At any rate, I think scum!ash would be more interested in answering questions to control the narrative.

J Reggie looks town as hell. Not sure why anyone has voted him at all except maybe for the fake hammer thing which was clearly town play to me.

SA and Ziggy are both cryptic to me in wholly different ways. SA is participatory and lucid and being a newbie with this much material posted I think scum!SA would have shown their hand somewhere and I haven't seen it. Ziggy, well, there's the language thing which I think is cutting both ways. He is entirely too cryptic for me to read one way or the other. Big fat null on him. If he is scum he certainly isn't controlling the game.

McGooGooGaJube is clearly dead town walking.

I intend to post soem response to Paco's analysis on me but feel very confident with Vote: RR which is L-1

Big reads post by PPS.  Copied from the Print Screen for my ISO read.

[ashersky]

Re-read PPS D1.  McGarg comes off as strong town on re-read.

LaLight as well, unless he was super coached.

Paco seems most likely partner, followed by J Reg.