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[silverspawn]

Might be a 1/10 chance for hitting two copper, but there's also the chance of hitting one copper which also isn't that great.  You have 24% chance of hitting two Estates.  But hey, this is assuming you open 5/2.  What if you open 2/5?  You'll be an additional turn behind if you skip the $2 hand, or you'll drop the percentages for a good Doctor overpay if you buy something.

I would rarely open doctor with 2/5, and certainly not if there's chapel. 5/2 doctor is extremely strong, but man, one turn difference is huge.

Again, Doctor is a good opening.  I am not arguing against that.  But silerspawn said that $5 Doctor is the BEST opening, better than any Chapel opening and "as good as it gets".  I am saying that it isn't at all clear that Doctor is the very best, and that there are certainly boards where Chapel would be the better choice.

Well, it's only the best if you want to trash down quickly. If you go for a garden rush, it's a terrible opening. You can compare it to chapel because you generally want to do the same thing with both. Are there boards where chapel is better? Yea, every shelter board. Trashing shelters with doctor is such a pain. Aside from that though, I don't think it really depends on the board. Maybe the importance of hitting 5$ is a factor, but generally they will behave similar on most boards, since you want to do the same thing with both of them. I just feel like 5$ doctor kills junk faster than chapel and has more buying power, so it's just better no matter what the rest of the board looks like. I'm not certain, even though I've played quite a lot of games with both, it's possible that I was lucky with doctor in most of them. This is actually something simulations could give answers to.

Can't believe this is the second time I'm defending a $3 trasher. Uh, but overall chapel is defintely better. 5$ doctor opening is great, but you only open with 5$ in... *doing maths* 8,3% of all games. Doctor is like trading post, very good early but loses strength really fast.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I have a few comments about the text:

Shanty Town: It's worth mentioning that the Lab effect works a lot of the time in the early game, allowing you to get a village early without giving up much economy.

Tunnel: You say buying it as an opening can be really good, but I don't think this is really the case. Sure the upside is an early Gold, but I don't know that it ever really makes up for downside of it just being dead. Also, I'm even more sure that it's not a "great defense" against discard attacks. You still have to discard.

Urchin: I think you're underselling the attack. It doesn't hurt much early on when you have a high concentration of Estates. But later on, if your deck isn't drawing a lot, it hurts a lot.

As far as the rankings go, I think Lookout, Shanty Town, and Black Market are underrated, and Tunnel and Market Square are overrated. Gold gain is not that good.

[serakfalcon]

Shanty Town: It's worth mentioning that the Lab effect works a lot of the time in the early game, allowing you to get a village early without giving up much economy.

in combination with discarding (oasis, embassy, minion), or basically any non-terminal actions shanty towns can be made to act like a lab more often than not. if you have cards that let you rearrange the top of your deck, you can line it up. So it can be very useful in certain conditions.

[brokoli]

Many disagreements for this part :

- Tunnel is points, and again victory cards are ranked way too low. Tunnel is without a doubt a top 5 card.
- Storeroom is so underrated. It's a key piece for all those engines with little to heavy draw. I think in general cellar and secret chamber are underrated (though I agree SC one of the worst $2), SC can be sometimes a nice source of money (especially powerful when you can draw again what you discarded). Storeroom is just a better secret chamber, the +buy helps a lot and the cellar effect adds flexibility.
- Oracle… one of my favourite opening cards, a very effective cheap drawer, a nice support card, it should be ranked higher than #15.

I would rank all those higher than Village, Urchin, Scheme and Market Square. Especially market square. Market square is just not that good.

I think Warehouse is overrated too. It was a top 10 $3 before Cornucopia, Hinterlands, Dark Ages and Guilds but now I think it's only a good support card, but not more than that. I would definitely rank it lower than Tunnel, Storeroom and Oracle.

About the first part, as always I think Fortune teller is underrated.

[Qvist]

Part 3

[brokoli]

Forager \o/ I can only agree. Such an awesome trasher.
Masquerade higher than ambassador, that's another victory

However Menagerie lower than Steward… and Swindler ? Really ? I don't understand why everybody loves swindler so much.

[SCSN]

I absolutely detest Swindler and think the game would be much better off without it, but it's still in my top 5; these lists are not popularity contests.

The thing that baffles me most is Black Market at 18. I have it at 4 and think it's more likely that I'm underrating than overrating it.

[dominion123]

I'd rate black market much better than that.

[WanderingWinder]

Okay, so you guys can obviously see how I feel by going and comparing with the WW's power rankings thread. But here, the biggest two things to me are smugglers, which is way too low, and scheme, which is way too high. Smugglers is really nice for just about everything but the generally-weak traditional draw-based big-money, and REALLY nice for engine mirrors, and scheme just... doesn't do that much that often.

Black Market... definitely seems too low here, but #4? I really can't see it being that high - the rest of the board is strong enough to not need the extra card that often. You have it better than which of steward, swindler, masquerade, ambassador, hermit, forager....?

[brokoli]

I absolutely detest Swindler and think the game would be much better off without it, but it's still in my top 5; these lists are not popularity contests.

Of course, "love" is a manner of speaking. I personally like Swindler mechanically, but I often ignore it and still don't feel like I'm making a mistake. A deck with a curse instead of a copper is not the end of the world

[Awaclus]

I absolutely detest Swindler and think the game would be much better off without it, but it's still in my top 5; these lists are not popularity contests.

Of course, "love" is a manner of speaking. I personally like Swindler mechanically, but I often ignore it and still don't feel like I'm making a mistake. A deck with a curse instead of a copper is not the end of the world

It's still comparable to a deck with a Silver instead of a Gold and giving your opponent a VP token, unless you can trash the Curse. And Swindler is still as good as a Silver if it doesn't collide with another terminal, so you aren't even losing momentum by buying one.

[Tables]

Part 3

That's a link to part 2, not part 3 (not that it really matters) .

Masquerade and Ambassador being that close on the top two places is interesting. I had a feeling Masq might have taken the lead this time, but I think I agree that they're a tough pair to say one is better than the other. Both are really good.

[Polk5440]

Masterpiece (I put it 14 ranks higher) and Workshop (15 ranks higher) were my biggest differences by far. I really think these two cards are underutilized.

My biggest differences in the other direction were not as stark: Lookout (I put it 9 places lower -- I really think it's used too much), Oasis (8 lower -- a case where it's bought a lot, but isn't key often. I rank these cards lower than other people, I think), Scheme (more often than people realize you just want another copy of something else), and Black Market (8 places lower -- I torpedoed this because I hate it so much. I don't buy it as often as I should for the same reason. Just be happy I resisted the urge to put it last).

[serakfalcon]

Many disagreements for this part :

- Tunnel is points, and again victory cards are ranked way too low. Tunnel is without a doubt a top 5 card.

That's not even remotely possible. All of the current top 5 are incredibly powerful 'game-changers'. When Tunnel has enablers, it is a decent addition that you have to watch carefully, lest it choke up your deck. When it doesn't have enablers, it's a poor man's duchy.

- Storeroom is so underrated. It's a key piece for all those engines with little to heavy draw. I think in general cellar and secret chamber are underrated (though I agree SC one of the worst $2), SC can be sometimes a nice source of money (especially powerful when you can draw again what you discarded). Storeroom is just a better secret chamber, the +buy helps a lot and the cellar effect adds flexibility.

Storeroom is a great card, and I usually get one, but it deserves to be where it is. It is a great compliment to any engine, and can help a little with BM, but it's only as strong as your engine, and almost never defines the game the way the more powerful cards do.

I would rank all those higher than Village, Urchin, Scheme and Market Square. Especially market square. Market square is just not that good.

I can't really understand that thinking. Market square lets you get gold for free by getting rid of cards that you wanted to get rid of anyways, AND is a cantrip +buy, how can that possibly be worse than tunnel?
Also, urchin is mediocre but mercenary is amazing. I definitely ranked urchin with that in mind.

About the first part, as always I think Fortune teller is underrated.

Especially with shelters, fortune teller is a bit of a joke. If you get it early, it doesn't set your opponents back that much, if you use it midgame it won't do anything, and in the end game, there usually are much better terminal actions to play. Lets not even get started about how it can topdeck nobles or harem for your opponent. It would be a better card if it's effect could stack. It's certainly the worst $3 attack, I'm a bit surprised it beat out develop but there you go.

[shark_bait]

I think Hermit/Madmen and Urchin/Mercenary are both underrated.  Hermit can trash from the discard and gain either Silver or $3-cost engine parts.  Mercenary allows for trashing while still having cash to buy in addition to a tangible attack.  I had them in my list at 8 and 9 and if I could redo it now I might put them a bit higher.

[brokoli]

That's not even remotely possible. All of the current top 5 are incredibly powerful 'game-changers'. When Tunnel has enablers, it is a decent addition that you have to watch carefully, lest it choke up your deck. When it doesn't have enablers, it's a poor man's duchy.

A poor man's duchy is a good buy. I mean, I rank the cards also based on how often I buy them and at the end of the game, if you have $3 don't buy that "poor man's duchy" you greatly decrese your chances to win the game.

Storeroom is a great card, and I usually get one, but it deserves to be where it is. It is a great compliment to any engine, and can help a little with BM, but it's only as strong as your engine, and almost never defines the game the way the more powerful cards do.

You could argue the same for Oasis, Market Square or Scheme… I simply think that storeroom does more things for you than scheme, because Storeroom shines in engines with no trashing, where sifting is the way to go, and there it can be a very important source of money, while Scheme or oasis is just a little support. I don't know, I simply see more power in storeroom than all above-cited.

I would rank all those higher than Village, Urchin, Scheme and Market Square. Especially market square. Market square is just not that good.

I can't really understand that thinking. Market square lets you get gold for free by getting rid of cards that you wanted to get rid of anyways, AND is a cantrip +buy, how can that possibly be worse than tunnel?
Also, urchin is mediocre but mercenary is amazing. I definitely ranked urchin with that in mind.

Market square always cost you one card in hand when you reveal it. That's a pretty big drawback in my opinion. Sure there are amazing things like Hermit+Market Square. But with tunnel you can also build a nice combo deck (Tactician, crossroads, Storeroom…). And again, Tunnel is VP… after all, VP is the only thing that wins you the game.

[Awaclus]

That's not even remotely possible. All of the current top 5 are incredibly powerful 'game-changers'. When Tunnel has enablers, it is a decent addition that you have to watch carefully, lest it choke up your deck. When it doesn't have enablers, it's a poor man's duchy.

A poor man's duchy is a good buy. I mean, I rank the cards also based on how often I buy them and at the end of the game, if you have $3 don't buy that "poor man's duchy" you greatly decrese your chances to win the game.

It's hardly any better than Great Hall for that - it's strictly better than Estate, but if you lost the Province split, Tunnel isn't going to save you.

Market square always cost you one card in hand when you reveal it. That's a pretty big drawback in my opinion. Sure there are amazing things like Hermit+Market Square. But with tunnel you can also build a nice combo deck (Tactician, crossroads, Storeroom…). And again, Tunnel is VP… after all, VP is the only thing that wins you the game.

Tunnel always costs you one card in hand when you reveal it, too. It also costs you one card in hand even when you don't reveal it. That drawback is even bigger. Almost every time, there's a better use for Tactician than enabling Tunnel, Crossroads+Tunnel is more like a nombo than a combo, and Storeroom+Tunnel is pretty good but nowhere near Hermit+Market Square. VP is the only thing that wins you the game, but there are better ways to get VP than buying Tunnels.

[silverspawn]

well, it's not terrible. smugglers is way too low, hermit is way too low, steward is too high (come at me), masterpiece is too low. and basic village is really low, that thing is so great. overall the top looks pretty good though, except forager > hermit

[GeoLib]

I think village is underrated. Yeah, it's not exciting, but engines are critical and for that you need +actions (usually). Certainly I'd rank it higher than scheme and market square and maybe warehouse.

[KingZog3]

I think village is underrated. Yeah, it's not exciting, but engines are critical and for that you need +actions (usually). Certainly I'd rank it higher than scheme and market square and maybe warehouse.

I very much disagree. Scheme is just amazing for any engine. Warehouse is better in more cases. Market Square in cantrip +buy, with a Gold gaining reaction which comes in handy pretty often. Village is good, sure, but all $4 villages are better and not much more expensive that they will make engines stronger.

[Beyond Awesome]

I think village is underrated. Yeah, it's not exciting, but engines are critical and for that you need +actions (usually). Certainly I'd rank it higher than scheme and market square and maybe warehouse.

I very much disagree. Scheme is just amazing for any engine. Warehouse is better in more cases. Market Square in cantrip +buy, with a Gold gaining reaction which comes in handy pretty often. Village is good, sure, but all $4 villages are better and not much more expensive that they will make engines stronger.

There are many boards where Fortress is not better than Village.

[jaybeez]

steward is too high (come at me)

Steward is one of the strongest cards in the game, I had it at #3.  If Steward is on the board, all you need is +actions and maybe +buy and an engine is possible.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I think village is underrated. Yeah, it's not exciting, but engines are critical and for that you need +actions (usually). Certainly I'd rank it higher than scheme and market square and maybe warehouse.

I very much disagree. Scheme is just amazing for any engine. Warehouse is better in more cases. Market Square in cantrip +buy, with a Gold gaining reaction which comes in handy pretty often. Village is good, sure, but all $4 villages are better and not much more expensive that they will make engines stronger.

It depends on what you mean by "not much more expensive". When you're just buying 1-2 copies of a card, the difference between $3 and $4 is not that much, since you'll hit $4 often enough. But when you're building an engine and trying to buy multiple pieces per turn, that $1 matters a lot. You can buy TWO Villages for $6, but only one Farming Village. You can also gain then easily with Hermits or Upgrades. So while it's true that the $4 villages are better once they're in your deck, I think that vanilla Village's "benefit" of costing $1 less is actually a big enough deal that it's better than Fortress/Mining/Farming/Walled.

Scheme is not amazing for "any engine". It's just amazing for engines that need to draw specific cards first. If your deck is trimmed enough, you get appropriate draws nearly all the time anyway, so the Scheme is just a waste of a $3 buy. And even for the engines for which it's good, it's not critical most of the time. Lack of a village can be an absolute deal-breaker.

[GeoLib]

I think village is underrated. Yeah, it's not exciting, but engines are critical and for that you need +actions (usually). Certainly I'd rank it higher than scheme and market square and maybe warehouse.

I very much disagree. Scheme is just amazing for any engine. Warehouse is better in more cases. Market Square in cantrip +buy, with a Gold gaining reaction which comes in handy pretty often. Village is good, sure, but all $4 villages are better and not much more expensive that they will make engines stronger.

Does the existence of worker's village make vanilla village bad?

[Witherweaver]

I think village is underrated. Yeah, it's not exciting, but engines are critical and for that you need +actions (usually). Certainly I'd rank it higher than scheme and market square and maybe warehouse.

I very much disagree. Scheme is just amazing for any engine. Warehouse is better in more cases. Market Square in cantrip +buy, with a Gold gaining reaction which comes in handy pretty often. Village is good, sure, but all $4 villages are better and not much more expensive that they will make engines stronger.

Does the existence of worker's village make vanilla village bad?

If all the workers moved there, yes.