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Author Topic: Asper's Cards  (Read 122035 times)

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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1150 on: August 21, 2018, 08:53:37 pm »
+1

So as I already mentioned with the Spice/Moneylender thing, assuming that Gallows actually is stronger than Dismantle I don't think that's necessarily a problem. This post is going to be more about Dismantle because, as I guess you kind of admitted you aren't very good with that kind of thing and it shows in what you're saying.

First off this Woodcutter comparison is completely bizarre to me, Dismantle can do a lot more than trash Gold into $5's, you can trash $3s into Gold and a $2, $4's into Gold and a $3 and so on. Like, how exactly is trashing a Potion into a Gold and a Silver the same as Woodcutter? You're also ignoring gain and play too which Woodcutter can't do...

When there are no other trashers Dismantle is arguably superior to the the Copper trashing.
When there are no other trashers and junkers Gallows is likely to be better as Remodeling junk into Gold is a sweet thing in a slog.
When there are better trashers the only argument for Dismantle is Gold. So when better trashers, Dismantle and Gallows are in the Kingdom you will always choose Gallows.
When there are better trashers and junkers the case is even more cleear cut, again Dismantle/Gallows only if you want the Gold and here Gallows has far more "fodder".

So on average Gallows seems to be clearly better.

Asper already pointed some stuff out, but I find these 4 points particularly strange. You seem to be presenting these scenarios as if they're representative of the entire range of kingdoms you see in Dominion or something, but you're ignoring important things like the quality of the draw, how abundant +Actions are, the payload and so on.
 
To expand upon what Asper said, when there are other trashers Dismantle's Copper gain becomes less of an issue and it's much more likely that doing gain and play tricks will be possible. On the Chapel example, gaining Golds is pretty great with Chapel, Chapel trashes so fast that economy can be an issue so a way to jam a bunch of money into the deck is pretty great. Things like Donate+Market Square/Windfall are this idea taken to the extreme. Also Chapel makes gain and play super easy to achieve with a bit of +Action and that makes the Dismantle tricks so much better.
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1151 on: August 21, 2018, 09:55:45 pm »
+1

"Gain mid-turn, draw into it and play" assumes a pretty well-running draw engine that can afford to play gainers mid-turn.
As a draw engine is hard to build without decent trashing I would put this into the "better trashers" category.
Why would you want to buy Dismantle or Gallows in such a draw engine? To downgrade cards and gain a Gold or to just gain a Gold.
You are totally right that in a smoothly running engine the downgrading is a good thing and those extra Coppers don't matter.
My argument is that tempo matters and the only reason to go for Dismantle/Gallows in the opening is to kickstart your economy via some Golds, preferrably without Coppers.

I am obviously convinced that my argument is right but I can see that Dismantle is better in a running engine because of its Develop tricks. So my question is, do you think that it can make sense to buy Dismantle in the middle of the game, when it would, as you seem to argue, be strongest (when you wanna get rid of a dead Potion, dead Sea Hag or all those Silvers from Lucky Coin and get some sweet 3s or 2s)?
Wouldn't it perhaps not just be better to use whatever stuff enabled the engine in the first place, gainers or cards with extra Buys (hence my Woodcutter comparison when you use Dismantle on Gold), to get what engine pieces you want? Because it is the dowgrading that matters, massive Gold is rarely what you want in an engine.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1152 on: August 23, 2018, 05:00:47 am »
+1

On an unrelated note, I kind of feel that Lair sounds a bit too threatening for what it is now. I always liked the idea of having a Swamp in Dominion. Maybe this is the time? Wisp IS the Swamp's gift, after all ;)



Apologies for the weird "2+" cost. The (otherwise fantastic) Dominion card image generator doesn't support overpay (to my knowledge) and I am at work.
Edit: Added the missing "Action" keyword.

Gubump

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1153 on: August 23, 2018, 04:11:01 pm »
+1

If you use the same generator that I do (it's in my sig), then you don't put a space in the cost, and it'll support overpay just fine.
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All of my fan card mockups are credited to Violet CLM and his Dominion Card Image Generator.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1154 on: August 23, 2018, 05:28:25 pm »
0

If you use the same generator that I do (it's in my sig), then you don't put a space in the cost, and it'll support overpay just fine.

I'm using Violet's generator, like you do according to your signature. Not putting a space inbetween will render the + huge, making it and the 2 go over the coin's borders.

Chappy7

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1155 on: August 28, 2018, 06:06:39 pm »
+1

On an unrelated note, I kind of feel that Lair sounds a bit too threatening for what it is now. I always liked the idea of having a Swamp in Dominion. Maybe this is the time? Wisp IS the Swamp's gift, after all ;)



Apologies for the weird "2+" cost. The (otherwise fantastic) Dominion card image generator doesn't support overpay (to my knowledge) and I am at work.
Edit: Added the missing "Action" keyword.

So you'd have to pay 3 for a Will-O-Wisp + Necropolis, 5 for an Imp + Necropolis, and 7 for a Ghost + Necropolis? I'm not sure If I'd do that other than the Will-O-Wisp Option, since WOW picks up Swamps.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1156 on: August 28, 2018, 06:34:19 pm »
+1

I like Swamp a lot. Yeah the Imp option might be weak, but maybe itís not!

If the whole package is too weak, Swamp could give +$1. Or, to not add an extra line, it could give +3 Actions.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1157 on: August 28, 2018, 06:37:58 pm »
+2

Swamp made me think of when Magic Lamp gave out a Genie instead of 3 Wishes. A Genie was basically just a Wish that wasnít a one-shot. It was too important to get it early, so it died. Could have been a Spirit for $6*, though! Use Exorcist on Province, get a Genie.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1158 on: August 28, 2018, 07:10:59 pm »
+1

I don't think I ever expanded upon why I think Swamp could cost $1.
If you take the effect of Swamp+Wisp you basically get "+2 Actions look at the top card and draw it if it costs $2 or less." which is weaker than Village. Of course it's different than this for a bunch of reasons, but I don't think they make the effect worth $3.
Imp is similar, $4 for Imp+Necropolis seems much more reasonable than $5.
The only worry here I think is Ghost, maybe $6 is too cheap for Ghost+Necro? I'm not sure.
Also should probably mention that $1 for Necropolis seems reasonable. I guess the only potential worry there is having such a cheap non-terminal card, but it's still a stop-card, so shouldn't be a problem?
I think Swamp is a perfectly buyable card as-is, but could maybe get away with being $1?

I should address this too actually
"Gain mid-turn, draw into it and play" assumes a pretty well-running draw engine that can afford to play gainers mid-turn.
As a draw engine is hard to build without decent trashing I would put this into the "better trashers" category.
Why would you want to buy Dismantle or Gallows in such a draw engine? To downgrade cards and gain a Gold or to just gain a Gold.
You are totally right that in a smoothly running engine the downgrading is a good thing and those extra Coppers don't matter.
My argument is that tempo matters and the only reason to go for Dismantle/Gallows in the opening is to kickstart your economy via some Golds, preferrably without Coppers.

I am obviously convinced that my argument is right but I can see that Dismantle is better in a running engine because of its Develop tricks. So my question is, do you think that it can make sense to buy Dismantle in the middle of the game, when it would, as you seem to argue, be strongest (when you wanna get rid of a dead Potion, dead Sea Hag or all those Silvers from Lucky Coin and get some sweet 3s or 2s)?
Wouldn't it perhaps not just be better to use whatever stuff enabled the engine in the first place, gainers or cards with extra Buys (hence my Woodcutter comparison when you use Dismantle on Gold), to get what engine pieces you want? Because it is the dowgrading that matters, massive Gold is rarely what you want in an engine.

I think for the most part the first paragraph is reasonable enough. I think I disagree on a few specific things, but this is supposed to be about Asper's cards not Dismantle so I don't really want to get into those things.

All I was really trying to say is that Dismantle does a bunch of things that Gallows can't, so saying that Gallows is better doesn't really make sense. You seem to agree now that Dismantle can be better in an engine so I guess that's all I was trying to say.
To address the questions in the second paragraph, yes I think it can make sense to buy Dismantle after the open, although I'd note that Dismantle at its best when you want to open with it and when it's good late too, when Dismantle is good later as well as in the opening it could make sense to open Dismantle over Gallows, even though you'd rather have Gallows on turn 3 and not gain the Copper. The second question is just one of those depends on the board questions, sometimes Dismantle is good and sometimes it isn't. Also I disagree about Gold not being what you want in an engine, buying Gold is inefficient sure, but gaining Gold through other cards effects can be the best way to add payload.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1159 on: August 28, 2018, 07:52:44 pm »
+3

The only worry here I think is Ghost, maybe $6 is too cheap for Ghost+Necro? I'm not sure.
Isn't Ghost better with lots of good Actions in your deck? I mean, Ghost playing a Necropolis would feel pretty bad.
I think Swamp would overall be more interesting at $1.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1160 on: August 29, 2018, 01:16:00 am »
+1

I think Swamp is a perfectly buyable card as-is, but could maybe get away with being $1?

I think Swamp would overall be more interesting at $1.

Well it's a fan card and fan cards can be whatever you want them to be. But I will say that I'm pretty sure Donald X. wouldn't want such a card to cost $1. These days he's really concerned about cards that make piles run out very quickly. And a card that costs $1 which you want a lot of copies of would run out very quickly indeed. And if Swamp were the only village on the board, then you might want as many copies as you could get.

From the Secret History of Nocturne Cards:

Quote from: Donald X.
I tried a terminal that got another copy of itself from your discard pile to your hand. But wait, you say. Yes well. It had no value without a village, and with a village you still didn't just get the combo all the time. It seemed cute for a bit. Then there was a version that gave you something for getting a copy back, so it was a combo without a village.

So this was a terminal Silver that could pull another copy of itself out of the discard pile. It was a real dud for my group at $2. So at my request, we (both Donald X.'s group and mine) tested it at $1. That was a pretty big improvement in terms of power level, but eventually he nixed it due to the pile running out too fast on boards where it was good.

So anyway, Poor House isn't something that just runs out. I think Swamp would be. And then if people are also buying them up for $1, you're not getting to use the fun part of the card. So uh, I'd try to make it worth $2. I mean it doesn't even have to be a village; that's not the interesting part.
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kru5h

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1161 on: August 29, 2018, 01:34:22 am »
+1

Instead of making it cost 1, you could just gain a Spirit costing the amount you overpaid, not "less than the amount you overpaid."

That way it still costs 2, yet you get Spirits for cheaper. It's probably less wordy, too.

LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1162 on: August 29, 2018, 01:45:53 am »
+2

Instead of making it cost 1, you could just gain a Spirit costing the amount you overpaid, not "less than the amount you overpaid."

That way it still costs 2, yet you get Spirits for cheaper. It's probably less wordy, too.

That means you can't get Will-o'-Wisps. You may not overpay by $0.

You could say "costing no more than the amount you overpaid" or some such, so that you could get a Wisp by overpaying at least $1. But man, that's a bad idea. It's a bad idea to make players really want to do something that an obscure rule tells them they can't do. And everybody will want to "overpay" by $0 and get a Wisp. So I'd say, stick with "less than the amount you overpaid".
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kru5h

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1163 on: August 29, 2018, 02:37:27 am »
+1

Yeah, I realized how dumb my idea was like an hour later. Oops.

Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1164 on: August 29, 2018, 03:16:46 am »
+1

To address the questions in the second paragraph, yes I think it can make sense to buy Dismantle after the open, although I'd note that Dismantle at its best when you want to open with it and when it's good late too, when Dismantle is good later as well as in the opening it could make sense to open Dismantle over Gallows, even though you'd rather have Gallows on turn 3 and not gain the Copper.
We are talking about a stupid border case anyway. If the Kingdom enables an engine it is very likely that other trashers are present (if there aren't Dismantle has to be the better card due to the ability to trash Coppers!) and in this instance it is unlikely that either Gallows or Dismantle will be bought. So the mid turn gaining of Dismantle is most of the times irrelevant.
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Gazbag

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1165 on: August 29, 2018, 03:40:27 am »
+1

To address the questions in the second paragraph, yes I think it can make sense to buy Dismantle after the open, although I'd note that Dismantle at its best when you want to open with it and when it's good late too, when Dismantle is good later as well as in the opening it could make sense to open Dismantle over Gallows, even though you'd rather have Gallows on turn 3 and not gain the Copper.
We are talking about a stupid border case anyway. If the Kingdom enables an engine it is very likely that other trashers are present (if there aren't Dismantle has to be the better card due to the ability to trash Coppers!) and in this instance it is unlikely that either Gallows or Dismantle will be bought. So the mid turn gaining of Dismantle is most of the times irrelevant.

An engine with other trashing sounds like one of the better places for Dismantle, if there's no other way of gaining cards.
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Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1166 on: August 29, 2018, 10:18:15 am »
+1

Sure, as long as we keep in mind that it is not as good as Develop for this job. Arguing that it is only half as good would be an exaggeration but while you can Develop a 4 into a desired 5 and 3 you have to Dismantle the 4 into a 3 and a Gold and then you have to play Dismantle again to net-gain the 5. As you said, the Gold isn't bad (you want some payload, there might be Remodel variants) but not what you often want en masse in an engine and if you do ignore the Gold gaining Dismantle can be viewed to be half as good /quick as Develop (for this particular job, Develop is usually worse at getting rid of Estates and they are equally good at trashing 0s).

So overall Dismantle is a more money-ish card, just like Gallows shines most in a junking-intense slog.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1167 on: August 31, 2018, 07:32:27 am »
+1

Sorry guys, I intended to get back to your analysis and suggestions already...

For Swamp, generally I'd like to balance the card by its effect rather than costing it higher. There are several reasons for this, but the two major ones are, it's kind of sad if Wisp can't pick it up, and also I'd have to still change the base effect to make it good enough for Imp and Ghost. +2 Actions have already been my attempt at making the card a bit less attractive as a spamming target, but of course this also affects the attractiveness with Imp and Ghost. About the +3 Actions option, my biggest reservation here is probably that I already have a card that does that and gives an on-buy effect.

I considered that maybe something Crossroads-ish would be a nice fit, in the sense that a card with a wording like "if this is the first time you play a Swamp this turn" would still work fine with Imp, but make it far less spammable for Will 'o Wisp (and less of a spammable card in general). Perhaps even something like "If you have no other copies of this in play" to make sure Ghost can still double it. These are just ideas, but the main idea is, make it less of a spammable card. It could also be something like "draw up to 7", but sadly that isn't doubled with Ghost, which is sad.

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1168 on: September 08, 2018, 01:48:04 pm »
0

So, I thought about Swamp, and maybe the solution to make it less spammable is to just make it terminal. No issue with Ghost, fine with Imp, but as you can't play loads of them easily, it's less trivial with Wisp.

Maybe something as simple as +2 Cards.

Another option would be a one-shot (no "if you do"), because that likes Ghost and Imp. So some options for the top would be:

Trash this. Gain a card costing up to 4$.

I think I favor the terminal solution, though I bet there's something better than +2 Cards to find. Maybe just something like +3 Cards, discard a card. Although sifiting probably favors Wisp again...

Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1169 on: September 09, 2018, 06:16:44 am »
+1

Maybe just something like +3 Cards, discard a card. Although sifiting probably favors Wisp again...
While a Smithy that discard one card is probably balanced at $3 it is too good when it comes with a conditional Lab.

I think by the way that the current Necro version is fine. If there are other villages in the Kingdom you'd rather have a Swamp that says +2 Cards and if there aren't using Necropolises as only splitters reduces the strength of engines significantly.
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Qvist

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1170 on: September 09, 2018, 07:43:37 am »
+1

I agree with LFN. Swamp with $1 seems balanced. At $5 you get Swamp + Imp which is like a weaker Bazaar. The best deal is to get WoW + Swamp at $3 as WoW draws Swamp but Swamp is still only a Copper as long as you don't add other cards that need the actions. And if you add those cards WoW gets weaker and Ghost gets better. Also Ghost hitting Swamp is not as bad when Swamp has $1.

Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1171 on: September 09, 2018, 08:23:04 am »
+1

The best deal is to get WoW + Swamp at $3 as WoW draws Swamp but Swamp is still only a Copper
This is false. If Swamp is buffed into Squire then a Wisp that draws into NewSwamp equals a Bazaar.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1172 on: September 09, 2018, 10:03:27 am »
0

I agree with LFN. Swamp with $1 seems balanced. At $5 you get Swamp + Imp which is like a weaker Bazaar. The best deal is to get WoW + Swamp at $3 as WoW draws Swamp but Swamp is still only a Copper as long as you don't add other cards that need the actions. And if you add those cards WoW gets weaker and Ghost gets better. Also Ghost hitting Swamp is not as bad when Swamp has $1.

I don't think you agree with LF, because what he meant was costing it at 1$, not giving it +1$. Giving it a nonterminal +1$ is not really an option, as it makes the card better when it is already good enough and doesn't improve any of its (potential) issues.

Holunder9

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1173 on: September 09, 2018, 03:32:11 pm »
+1

I agree with LFN. Swamp with $1 seems balanced. At $5 you get Swamp + Imp which is like a weaker Bazaar. The best deal is to get WoW + Swamp at $3 as WoW draws Swamp but Swamp is still only a Copper as long as you don't add other cards that need the actions. And if you add those cards WoW gets weaker and Ghost gets better. Also Ghost hitting Swamp is not as bad when Swamp has $1.

I don't think you agree with LF, because what he meant was costing it at 1$, not giving it +1$. Giving it a nonterminal +1$ is not really an option, as it makes the card better when it is already good enough and doesn't improve any of its (potential) issues.
I think it is pretty clear that LFN suggested to convert Swamp into a Squire:

If the whole package is too weak, Swamp could give +$1. Or, to not add an extra line, it could give +3 Actions.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #1174 on: September 10, 2018, 02:29:47 am »
0

I agree with LFN. Swamp with $1 seems balanced. At $5 you get Swamp + Imp which is like a weaker Bazaar. The best deal is to get WoW + Swamp at $3 as WoW draws Swamp but Swamp is still only a Copper as long as you don't add other cards that need the actions. And if you add those cards WoW gets weaker and Ghost gets better. Also Ghost hitting Swamp is not as bad when Swamp has $1.

I don't think you agree with LF, because what he meant was costing it at 1$, not giving it +1$. Giving it a nonterminal +1$ is not really an option, as it makes the card better when it is already good enough and doesn't improve any of its (potential) issues.
I think it is pretty clear that LFN suggested to convert Swamp into a Squire:

If the whole package is too weak, Swamp could give +$1. Or, to not add an extra line, it could give +3 Actions.

Wow, yes, I misremembered... Sorry, Qvist. I still don't think I like that option too much. It doesn't seem to me that the card is overly weak right now, and it makes loading up on the even less hard.
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