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[GendoIkari]

I find it interesting that Donald would say that you can exchange your tokens for money "in your buy phase, before buying cards." I wonder why? Right now Poor house is the only edge case I can think of where it matters at all... wouldn't the rule be easier to write if it were just "at any time during your turn"? Makes me think that maybe there will be a Guilds card that will make it matter.

[Watno]

Black Market.
Also you can't do it after buying a card.

[GendoIkari]

Black Market.
Also you can't do it after buying a card.

Oops, I knew about Black Market as well; but forgot to mention it.

And I did quote "before buying cards." But why? What would be different if you could buy a card, then cash in a coin token? I'm thinking that there's probably some sort of "while this is in play, when you buy a card, take a token" type thing... that would explain the rule.

[Qvist]

Black Market.
Also you can't do it after buying a card.

Oops, I knew about Black Market as well; but forgot to mention it.

And I did quote "before buying cards." But why? What would be different if you could buy a card, then cash in a coin token? I'm thinking that there's probably some sort of "while this is in play, when you buy a card, take a token" type thing... that would explain the rule.

Or even easier: "When you buy/gain this, gain X coin tokens."

[eHalcyon]

Black Market.
Also you can't do it after buying a card.

Oops, I knew about Black Market as well; but forgot to mention it.

And I did quote "before buying cards." But why? What would be different if you could buy a card, then cash in a coin token? I'm thinking that there's probably some sort of "while this is in play, when you buy a card, take a token" type thing... that would explain the rule.

I expect there to be a card that gives coin tokens on-gain.

PPE: ninja'd, at least in this thread.

[Schlippy]

There might a card like "While this is a play, when you buy a card, gain a Coin token" or "In games using this, gain a coin token for every $5 spent in your buy phase" or "-1 VP, When you buy this, gain a curse 5 Coin tokens" and it is simply there to rule out situations where your coins suddenly increase because you buy cards, because that can be pretty annoying to keep track of.

[LastFootnote]

I'm guessing it's so it's consistant with playing Treasures. You can't play Treasure cards after you starting buying cards. It makes sense that you can't spend coin tokens either.

[werothegreat]

Why would it matter for Poor House?  It's not like you're literally exchanging tokens for Treasure cards - they're just increasing your fielded coins this turn.

[Witherweaver]

Why would it matter for Poor House?  It's not like you're literally exchanging tokens for Treasure cards - they're just increasing your fielded coins this turn.

It matters with Poor House because Poor House has a lower bound on it's -coin effect.  For example, if have 6 treasure in hand and played a poor house, you would get +4 coin and then -4 coin.  If you played two coin tokens, and then played poor house with 6 treasure in hand, you would get +4 coin and then -6 coin. 

Of course, in the end, you end up with +0 coin from Poor House.  But in the second scenario you don't have those two coin tokens during your buy phase.

[GendoIkari]

Why would it matter for Poor House?  It's not like you're literally exchanging tokens for Treasure cards - they're just increasing your fielded coins this turn.

It matters with Poor House because Poor House has a lower bound on it's -coin effect.  For example, if have 6 treasure in hand and played a poor house, you would get +4 coin and then -4 coin.  If you played two coin tokens, and then played poor house with 6 treasure in hand, you would get +4 coin and then -6 coin. 

Of course, in the end, you end up with +0 coin from Poor House.  But in the second scenario you don't have those two coin tokens during your buy phase.

Right, though it also only matters if you for some really odd reason chose to spend the coin tokens before playing Poor House. There may be another card that would be better if you could do so.

[eHalcyon]

Why would it matter for Poor House?  It's not like you're literally exchanging tokens for Treasure cards - they're just increasing your fielded coins this turn.

It matters with Poor House because Poor House has a lower bound on it's -coin effect.  For example, if have 6 treasure in hand and played a poor house, you would get +4 coin and then -4 coin.  If you played two coin tokens, and then played poor house with 6 treasure in hand, you would get +4 coin and then -6 coin. 

Of course, in the end, you end up with +0 coin from Poor House.  But in the second scenario you don't have those two coin tokens during your buy phase.

Right, though it also only matters if you for some really odd reason chose to spend the coin tokens before playing Poor House. There may be another card that would be better if you could do so.

You can't choose to pay coin tokens before playing Poor House anyway, because you can't pay coin tokens until the Buy phase.

[Just a Rube]

I find it interesting that Donald would say that you can exchange your tokens for money "in your buy phase, before buying cards." I wonder why? Right now Poor house is the only edge case I can think of where it matters at all... wouldn't the rule be easier to write if it were just "at any time during your turn"? Makes me think that maybe there will be a Guilds card that will make it matter.

It matters with cards that do things on overpayment. For instance, when I overpay for Doctor, I don't know how many cards I'm going to be trashing, vs. discarding/putting back until I process it. If I was going to buy 2 Doctors for some reason this turn, I might want to wait for the results of the first trashing before I decide how much I want to pay for the second doctor. With this rule, I would have to have already declared how many coin tokens I wanted to cash in this turn, which limits my options.

I doubt you would often buy 2 Doctors in one turn, but overpayment probably makes more of an impact on other cards.

[eHalcyon]

I find it interesting that Donald would say that you can exchange your tokens for money "in your buy phase, before buying cards." I wonder why? Right now Poor house is the only edge case I can think of where it matters at all... wouldn't the rule be easier to write if it were just "at any time during your turn"? Makes me think that maybe there will be a Guilds card that will make it matter.

It matters with cards that do things on overpayment. For instance, when I overpay for Doctor, I don't know how many cards I'm going to be trashing, vs. discarding/putting back until I process it. If I was going to buy 2 Doctors for some reason this turn, I might want to wait for the results of the first trashing before I decide how much I want to pay for the second doctor. With this rule, I would have to have already declared how many coin tokens I wanted to cash in this turn, which limits my options.

I doubt you would often buy 2 Doctors in one turn, but overpayment probably makes more of an impact on other cards.

Even if you could pay coin tokens in the middle of the buy phase, you still can't do that.  You have to decide how much to overpay before triggering the effect.

[LastFootnote]

I find it interesting that Donald would say that you can exchange your tokens for money "in your buy phase, before buying cards." I wonder why? Right now Poor house is the only edge case I can think of where it matters at all... wouldn't the rule be easier to write if it were just "at any time during your turn"? Makes me think that maybe there will be a Guilds card that will make it matter.

It matters with cards that do things on overpayment. For instance, when I overpay for Doctor, I don't know how many cards I'm going to be trashing, vs. discarding/putting back until I process it. If I was going to buy 2 Doctors for some reason this turn, I might want to wait for the results of the first trashing before I decide how much I want to pay for the second doctor. With this rule, I would have to have already declared how many coin tokens I wanted to cash in this turn, which limits my options.

I doubt you would often buy 2 Doctors in one turn, but overpayment probably makes more of an impact on other cards.

Even if you could pay coin tokens in the middle of the buy phase, you still can't do that.  You have to decide how much to overpay before triggering the effect.

What does that have to with JustARube's post? It seems valid to me. He's talking about buying two Doctors in a turn and deciding how much to pay for the second one.

[eHalcyon]

Ahhh, I missed that it was for two doctors.  I thought he was talking about how much to overpay for just the one.  My bad!

[Witherweaver]

Why would it matter for Poor House?  It's not like you're literally exchanging tokens for Treasure cards - they're just increasing your fielded coins this turn.

It matters with Poor House because Poor House has a lower bound on it's -coin effect.  For example, if have 6 treasure in hand and played a poor house, you would get +4 coin and then -4 coin.  If you played two coin tokens, and then played poor house with 6 treasure in hand, you would get +4 coin and then -6 coin. 

Of course, in the end, you end up with +0 coin from Poor House.  But in the second scenario you don't have those two coin tokens during your buy phase.

Right, though it also only matters if you for some really odd reason chose to spend the coin tokens before playing Poor House. There may be another card that would be better if you could do so.

You can't choose to pay coin tokens before playing Poor House anyway, because you can't pay coin tokens until the Buy phase.

Right, that was the point of the original post.  Why can't you pay coin tokens before your buy phase.  Then someone asked why it mattered with Poor House.  I was just saying that playing coin tokens before playing Poor House does matter, and so disallowing it does have a functional effect.

[eHalcyon]

I need to read more carefully. 

[ConMan]

I can imagine a Banker or similar card with "When you buy this, you may overpay up to $3. For each $1 you overpay, gain a coin token." which, while it wouldn't give any tangible bonus if you could spend those tokens in the same turn, makes sense to not let you do so.

[werothegreat]

I can imagine a Banker or similar card with "When you buy this, you may overpay up to $3. For each $1 you overpay, gain a coin token." which, while it wouldn't give any tangible bonus if you could spend those tokens in the same turn, makes sense to not let you do so.

I did make a fan card called Stock Market once that was: "During your buy phase, whenever you buy a card, +$3."

[Jimmmmm]

I can imagine a Banker or similar card with "When you buy this, you may overpay up to $3. For each $1 you overpay, gain a coin token." which, while it wouldn't give any tangible bonus if you could spend those tokens in the same turn, makes sense to not let you do so.

I did make a fan card called Stock Market once that was: "During your buy phase, whenever you buy a card, +$3."

Isn't that essentially the same as a buy phase only cost reduction without the $0 lower limit?

[werothegreat]

I can imagine a Banker or similar card with "When you buy this, you may overpay up to $3. For each $1 you overpay, gain a coin token." which, while it wouldn't give any tangible bonus if you could spend those tokens in the same turn, makes sense to not let you do so.

I did make a fan card called Stock Market once that was: "During your buy phase, whenever you buy a card, +$3."

Isn't that essentially the same as a buy phase only cost reduction without the $0 lower limit?

Sort of.  If you had a lot of +Buys, you could just buy Coppers until you had enough for a Colony.

[SirPeebles]

There are plenty of instances (in addition to Doctor) where you gain new information after buying a card which influences whether or not you would want to spend more tokens to buy a second card.

* you buy a Ruin, revealing the next one

* you buy a Knight, revealing the next one

* an on-buy effect reveals new information, such as a Noble Brigand discarding two of your opponents key cards, signaling that it will likely be safe to buy the penultimate Province rather than the last Duchy.

* an on-gain effect reveals new information, e.g. you buy an IGG and your opponent trashes the Curse with a Watchtower.  Now you'd want to chip in an extra coin token to buy a Gold rather than a second IGG.

* you buy Rats or Cultist, trashing it with a Watchtower, and drawing new cards.  Maybe one is a Hunting Grounds, making you want to spend extra coin tokens on a Farmland to gain both a Province and Duchy!

[gojaejin]

*You buy a province and opponent trashes a Fool's Gold for a gold on top of their deck. Now you'd love to buy a Noble Brigand.

*You buy Noble Brigand, gain a gold from an opponent, which makes it more valuable to buy a Mint or Mine.

*You buy an NB, miss opponent's gold, but see that they have only a few cards unseen and know that there's a gold in there, so you want another NB.

[Thisisnotasmile]

There are plenty of instances (in addition to Doctor) where you gain new information after buying a card which influences whether or not you would want to spend more tokens to buy a second card.

* you buy a Ruin, revealing the next one

I may never have played Dark Ages before, but even I can see coin tokens (or lack thereof) won't make any difference to your ability to buy a second ruin. Although, I'm sure there is a situation where it would matter. I declare this thread an edge case thread. Gogogogo!

[AJD]

There are plenty of instances (in addition to Doctor) where you gain new information after buying a card which influences whether or not you would want to spend more tokens to buy a second card.

* you buy a Ruin, revealing the next one

I may never have played Dark Ages before, but even I can see coin tokens (or lack thereof) won't make any difference to your ability to buy a second ruin.

It could affect your ability to buy something other than a second Ruin. That is, you buy a Ruin, revealing the next one, and that makes you say, oh, I'd rather use my second buy on something else.