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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards  (Read 62046 times)

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Tdog

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2012, 10:05:29 am »
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For the strongest 4, it's fairly decided. Anything other than 1) Witch 2) Mountebank 3) Wharf 4) Hunting party would be a travesty.

Mountebank has been dethroned?
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Qvist

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2012, 10:14:15 am »
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The Best $5 Cards - Part 2/4
#35 ▼6 Council Room (Base) Weighted Average: 31.19 ▼3.60 / Median: 32 ▼4 / Mode: 35 ▼10 / Standard Deviation: 5.8 ▲1.6
Highest Rank(s): #17 (1x), #18 (1x), #22 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #41 (3x)

After a 3.5 point gap, we're now in the lower mediocre range. Council Room is a big loser with 6 ranks and 3.6 points. More players agree with this lower rank.

Council Room is really strong per se, but don't underestimate the extra card for your opponent! If he draws a Gold or the much needed village for his own Council Room, he may even profit more from your play than you do. And more and more players seem to recognize that as you can see in the rankings. It really only shines on boards with discard attacks like Militia or Goons. With such cards you take back the profit from your opponent and have a really big hand and even a +Buy. Its drawing power and +Buy makes it a good Level 4 opener (#115 ▲2) combined with Fool's Gold.
#34 ▲1 Library (Base) Weighted Average: 30.52 ▼0.33 / Median: 31 =0 / Mode: 33 ▼2 / Standard Deviation: 7.4 ▲1.2
Highest Rank(s): #9 (1x), #11 (1x), #16 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #41 (1x), #43 (2x)

Even though Library lost a little bit of points, it profits from Council Room's drop. It has some big outliers with one being even in the Top 10, but still the consensus is higher on this card.

Library's best use may be countering discarding attacks as it may even set other actions aside and therefore increase the probability to draw treasures. But it's also very useful for engines with villages that don't increase your handsize, like Festival or Hamlet. And even in Big Money it is a stronger (but more expensive alternative) than Smithy as you won't draw Libraries/Smithies dead)
#33 ▼5 Treasury (Seaside) Weighted Average: 29.75 ▼2.87 / Median: 30 ▼5 / Mode: 29 ▼5 / Standard Deviation: 6.2 ▲2.9
Highest Rank(s): #14 (1x), #15 (1x), #16 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #41 (1x), #42 (2x)

Treasury lost 5 ranks becaus all the high voters from last time didn't do so again. This shows us the big increase in consensus.

Similar to Market, it's a "Copper that doesn't hurt", without the +Buy but with top-decking ability. As you can only use this ability until you're going green, you want Treasuries very early. Of course Treasury/Chapel is even better than Market/Chapel on #27 ▼9 of the best openings. With 2-3 Treasuries you can keep buying good cards every turn. This comboes well with Outpost. But Treasuries are very slow, too slow on most boards. They're therefore better in Colony games and in all other games that tend to be slow. But beware of discarding attacks if you have more than 3 Treasuries. Treasury is especially good in greenless games like with Bishop/Goons or when you don't buy victory cards and just use Expand. You can then keep top-decking them even until the late game.
#32 ▼1 Market (Base) Weighted Average: 28.44 ▲0.05 / Median: 29 ▼1 / Mode: 31 ▼4 / Standard Deviation: 6.9 ▼0.7
Highest Rank(s): #8 (1x), #14 (1x), #15 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #41 (2x), #42 (1x)

Market's rating rarely changed; your opinion is basically the same. It has a solid lead over Treasury and a big outlier on #8 and so the deviation also increased a little bit, but is still very low.

You probably pick up Market at least once in most of the games, but it is no super strong card. You want it most of the times because of the cantrip +Buy as an addition to your main strategy, because +Buy cantrips are rare and essential for an engine because you may already have stronger terminal cards. And it is also superior to Silver in all but Big Money games as you draw a card and get an additional $1. The non-terminal +Buys is very important in some combos too, like a Highway+Market chain. Market usually is no good opener, but Market/Chapel is very strong and is on #47 ▼6 of the best openings.
#31 ▼7 Cartographer (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 27.76 ▼4.03 / Median: 28 ▼5 / Mode: 28 ▼7 / Standard Deviation: 7.5 ▲1.8
Highest Rank(s): #10 (1x), #11 (1x), #13 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #39 (1x), #40 (1x), #47 (1x)

Cartographer is a Hinterlands card which loses a lot of ranks! It loses 4 points and 7 ranks. It has still a above average deviation, but the consensus increased a lot.

Cartographer is useful in all decks (maybe except Big Money decks). It reminds of Navigator, but hasn't the problems of being terminal and you can choose for each card separately to discard or to put back. It also draws a card, although you often wish to top-deck first and draw afterwards. Basically it is a 4 times more powerful Spy (except the attack). You can also compare it to Warehouse. While Warehouse only makes this turn better, you can use Cartographer to either prepare your next turn (mitigating draw luck) or to prepare the cards you want to draw with either a second Cartographer or any other card that draws cards. So it combos very nice with many cards, especially cards that draw and are non-terminal, like Wishing Well and most importantly Scrying Pool and is also not bad against strong top-decking attacks like Ghost Ship or Rabble (although you draw one card first). With all the good points, Cartographer is still no good card for itself and has a high opportunity cost, it's just an addition to your deck and makes your engine stronger and more stable and is nearly never a dominating card on the board.
#30 ▲3 Inn (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 27.44 ▲1.51 / Median: 27 ▲3.5 / Mode: 34 ▼7 / Standard Deviation: 7.5 ▼0.3
Highest Rank(s): #10 (1x), #12 (1x), #13 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #38 (3x), #39 (1x), #40 (1x)

Inn is the first card which didn't get ranked below #40. It went up 3 ranks, but has still a relatively high deviation. It only has a small lead over Cartographer.

Inn's main effect is pretty simple. It's a Young Witch with no attack effect, but +2 Actions instead. So it's a village that doesn't increase handsize, but has a filter effect. This is nice but not great. More important is its on-buy effect. Shuffling action cards into the draw pile is great when you time it right, especially when there are (nearly) no cards in the draw pile. Decks with high action density love Inn, so you can prepare a Scrying Pool mega-draw or a King's Court-Bridge mega turn for example. If you manage to have enough money and at least an extra-buy with your actions, you can buy a Inn from the extra-buy and won't see your bought victory cards so fast, especially in combination with Chancellor. Even if you don't necessarily have a high action density and miss $8, buy a Inn for getting all your nice actions in the next turn.
#29 ▼2 Trading Post (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 26.84 ▼0.89 / Median: 29 ▼4.5 / Mode: 29 ▲7 / Standard Deviation: 9.0 ▼1.8
Highest Rank(s): #6 (1x), #7 (1x), #9 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #42 (1x), #43 (1x), #46 (1x)

Trading Post has the second highest deviation in this list. It was even three times in the Top 10.

Trading Post is another card in the category "Good opener, but afterwards". No surprise the deviation is that high. Maybe it's so low because it costs $5 and is only a important opener in about 1-(5/6)^2 ~ 30% of all 2-player games. But with 11 ▲1 openings in the Top 100 of all openings (with Trading Post/Haven on #9 ▲2 and Trading Post/Lighthouse on #21 ▼12), that still shows its strength. If you compare its ability with Mine as a opener: It can trash 2 instead of one card and it can trash all card types and isn't limited to treasures. But Trading Post has fiercer competition in the $5 list, so its downside of getting weak soon was taken more into account by all of you.
#28 ▲2 Horn of Plenty (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 25.85 ▲2.00 / Median: 26 ▲4 / Mode: 35 ▼3 / Standard Deviation: 8.2 ▲0.8
Highest Rank(s): #9 (1x), #10 (1x), #12 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #39 (1x), #41 (1x), #42 (1x)

Horn of Plenty is another card with high variance. It went up exactly 2 points and ranks and has a solid lead over Trading Post of around 1 point.

Horn of Plenty is one of the cards that are very hard to master. On average boards it's similar to Ironworks and just too slow. But if you can build a decent engine with several different cards involved (and that is the hardest part), then HoP is very powerful. With one Horn of Plenty and a good engine the game can end in 3 turns. Turn 1: Gain another HoP, Turn 2: Gain another 2 HoPs, Turn 3: Gain 4 Provinces from the HoPs and buy the 5th Province with the rest of your money: Basically "Game Over". The problem is to build such an engine and prepare the Mega Turn before the opponent gets a too big Province lead.
#27 ▼1 City (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 25.65 ▼1.08 / Median: 24 ▼1 / Mode: 24 ▼2 / Standard Deviation: 8.8 ▲0.4
Highest Rank(s): #4 (1x), #6 (1x), #7 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #37 (2x), #41 (2x)

City has the third highest deviation and was voted with a small lead over Horn of Plenty. Newer players ranked it one rank higher.

City is highly dependant from the board. That may explain the high deviation. On many boards you just spend $5 for a mediocre $3 Village. But with Cursers where the Curses are likely going out, this can be very strong. When activated, a Level 2 City is already a combined Laboratory and Village, so basically a ~$6 card. A Level 3 City is a combined Laboratory, Market and Village and would normally cost ~9$. In non-cursing games this is often a trap card. If one player goes for Cities to run this pile out, he's just buying Villages and doesn't build up his economy. Then you do much better not buying any City and try to end the game as fast as you can. In longer lasting games (especially Colony games) Cities are much stronger, but you really have to consider, if you really want so many Villages. In 3+ player games any pile can deplete faster and Cities are therefore much stronger. And if you have won the City Split and have Level 3 Cities, you have to just be sure that you don't lose on a 3-pile ending. But as many of us only play 2 player games, this wasn't taken that much into account.
#26 ▼4 Rabble (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 24.80 ▼2.30 / Median: 26 ▼3.5 / Mode: 22 ▼3 / Standard Deviation: 6.3 ▲2.5
Highest Rank(s): #11 (1x), #12 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #36 (2x), #37 (2x)

Rabble is the second worst $5 attack. It dropped over 2 points and 4 ranks and has a really low deviation for a middle ranked card after it gained so much consensus. It is one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.

One Rabble may even worse than a Fortune Teller, as it can't guarantee to hit. It's not a very good opener, especially with good trashers, but gets stronger and stronger in the late game. Rabble is stronger the more you play in one turn. If you build up a (Village-Smithy-like) engine and need good drawing power, Rabble is the way to go, because if your opponent goes green too early, he gets bad hands pretty soon and you may crush him. Your Rabbles can hit him even stronger than any other discarding attack, because he has at best only 2 good cards in hand. But beware of Farming Village, which is a very effective counter. And if you don't need the drawing power, you can skip over Rabble, because one Rabble isn't that strong per se.
#25 ▼8 Venture (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 24.52 ▼4.44 / Median: 24 ▼5.5 / Mode: 21 ▼3 / Standard Deviation: 7.3 ▲2.2
Highest Rank(s): #12 (2x), #13 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #38 (1x), #39 (1x), #41 (1x)

Venture is one of the cards with the biggest change. 8 ranks and over 4 points is huge. Players ranking it high last time, didn't do it again; so the consensus is much higher.

Venture is very similar to the "+1 Card, +1 Action, +$1, +Bonus" cards like Market, Treasury or Highway. It draws a card, gives $1 and doesn't cost an action. What is the +Bonus of Venture? Being a Treasure Card, it can't be drawn dead. And it has a Filter effect finding another Treasure Card. So you're guaranteed $2 when playing a Venture, making it another "Almost Strictly Superior to Silver $5 Treasure Card". The filter effect allows you to go green earlier, because you can discard the green cards with Ventures. This effect reminds of Adventurer (and the name of course). While an Adventurer in a Copper-free deck gets you to at least $4 and Venture only to $3, Venture is still superior, because it's $1 cheaper and doesn't cost an action and is therefore chainable. Ventures are great if you have multiples and as few other Treasure Cards as possible. If you manage that, they are even superior to Gold. I like to add, that the multiple Ventures stacking effect is no additional bonus, just the result of the two above mentioned bonuses (Multiple Markets in a thin deck would have the same effect). Venture/Chapel is the #65 best opening.

To the third part
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 10:26:34 pm by Qvist »
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2012, 10:20:10 am »
0

This list is also mostly right, but I probably would knock city back a bit still. It's just not a factor in plenty two play province games.

The rest is fine, though I would have been inclined to put trading post better, and I am dismayed to not see Upgrade yet.
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ehunt

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2012, 10:21:14 am »
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cartographer underrated

city overrated, it's an ignore-this-pile pile in 50% of games. agreed with robz that upgrade is going to be massively overrated, wherever it is.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2012, 11:10:24 am »
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If I were a good english speaker, I would probably make an articla about Harvest which is terribly underrated.
Why harvest is better than merchant ship in engines ? Because the fact you discard card can be positive for you. I mean : play courtyard/mandarin, put an estate on top of your deck, play harvest and discard the estate. Even better : play apothecary, put the victory cards back and discard them with harvest (the best case is when you put tunnel back). There are also oppenent's rabbles, ghost ships, etc… Not incredible, but neat, and you can't do that with MS.
Of course, cards like cartographer and scout are bad for harvest. But Harvest have a potential that Merchant ship don't have.

Why Harvest is bad in BM decks ? Because usually you have a lot of coppers, simply.

About the next part of the list : Library is horribly underrated. Why smithy is ranked so high in the 4$ list if library is ranked so low here ? Library is a good card for big money, but also for a lot of (fun) engines. Fishing village, hamlet, vault, university, shanty town, festival, Inn…

Horn of plenty, also underrated. I love this card and people don't realize how good a Horn of Plenty engine is.
Cartographer and Venture fairly ranked, I think.
City, Upgrade and rabble a little overrated.

For the strongest 4, it's fairly decided. Anything other than 1) Witch 2) Mountebank 3) Wharf 4) Hunting party would be a travesty.

1) Mountebank 2) Witch 3) IGG 4) Hunting party 5) Wharf  ;)
However, I'm not sure about Hunting party & Wharf.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2012, 11:42:37 am »
+3

For the strongest 4, it's fairly decided. Anything other than 1) Witch 2) Mountebank 3) Wharf 4) Hunting party would be a travesty.
Hunting Party is not even close to my top 4...

Why smithy is ranked so high in the 4$ list if library is ranked so low here ?
Because there are more really powerful 5s than 4s?

Regarding this new list, I think Inn is a little too low and Trading Post a little too high. And HoP, Rabble, and City are way too low. Unlike all the rest of the cards in this list, they are very often dominant cards.

Some comment on the text:

Horn of Plenty doesn't need to Mega-turn to be good. As a workshop that can gain 5s without using an action, it's good for a lot of engines.

I disagree with the statement that "One Rabble may [be] even worse than a Fortune Teller, as it can't guarantee to hit." Likely, you're using a poor definition of "hit". "Hit" should mean do something good, and "miss" do nothing. It's more likely to "hit" that Fortune Teller. Fortune Teller does nothing when the top card is an VP Card/Curse. Rabble only does nothing when all of the top 3 cards are VP/Curse. Sometimes people think of Rabble as only hitting when you physically put a victory card on top. But that's the wrong way to think about it. If you skip 3 action/treasures, it's much more likely that more of the next cards that they'll draw are victory cards, even if you didn't see them.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 11:56:24 am by HiveMindEmulator »
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2012, 11:57:22 am »
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For the strongest 4, it's fairly decided. Anything other than 1) Witch 2) Mountebank 3) Wharf 4) Hunting party would be a travesty.

Maybe you can already prepare buying new clothes? ;)

For the record--and I always do this when I contemplate the top $5s--I completely forgot Ill Gotten Gains, which is certainly about the 3rd or 4th best one.
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DStu

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2012, 12:03:00 pm »
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For the record--and I always do this when I contemplate the top $5s--I completely forgot Ill Gotten Gains, which is certainly about the 3rd or 4th best one.

Anid now you just have to remember Governour, and we can talk...

PS: I've Ghostship up there also...
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Powerman

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2012, 12:16:16 pm »
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Only change I'd like to see is a higher rated Trading Post.  I mean, if you get it T1 / T2, it's more of a "gg" than getting a T1 witch IMO. 
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2012, 01:08:57 pm »
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Well I am just pleased as punch to see Venture this low.  Maybe it's not overrated at all anymore.  I actually had it one rank higher than this, but kinda wanted to put it lower than I did.

Treasury and City are the other two cards I had higher than this group, at #22 and #21 respectively.  This makes Treasury now almost as underrated as Spice Merchant, which was the most egregiously misranked card in the other lists.  Except Treasury's not nearly that bad, because I definitely overrated it by a few slots.  It's very nice support when building engines, and sometimes you can get your green from VP chips or gainers (HoP, anyone?) and you can leave it on top forever, but it's not quite as nice as I had it.  It's still a little underranked.

City I am much more confident is being underranked here.  Yes, it is a dead pile in Big Money Province games.  But Big Money Province games are probably no more than 20 percent of the games I play, and it is just so so powerful in most other setups.  Curse games, yeah.  Many engines, heck yeah.  It can even work as a counter to alt-VP players, making pile-draining too dangerous.

...

So this means there are three cards which I had in this group which we haven't seen yet.  And they're the cards I ranked #33, #34, and #35!  I'm curious to see who can identify them (one should be pretty easy, if you've read anything by me before), and I'll explain why they're horribly overrated sacks of mediocrity in another post.

...

As for the rest of these, it's hard to quibble too much.  I had Horn of Plenty a little lower, and both Council Room and Inn a little higher.  HoP was where it is on the grounds that gainers have a tendency to be traps, but I do actually like HoP and could easily bump it up a couple.  Inn is a village, so of course I had it higher, and I happen to think it has the niftiest on-gain effect in Hinterlands.  Council Room was higher than Library and a few others on the grounds that its +Buy can be really crucial (and if you'redrawing so many cards, it's more likely than usual to be useful).
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2012, 01:12:47 pm »
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For the strongest 4, it's fairly decided. Anything other than 1) Witch 2) Mountebank 3) Wharf 4) Hunting party would be a travesty.

Maybe you can already prepare buying new clothes? ;)

For the record--and I always do this when I contemplate the top $5s--I completely forgot Ill Gotten Gains, which is certainly about the 3rd or 4th best one.

I'll just go ahead and say that my top 5 was 1) Mountebank, 2) Witch, 3) Hunting Party, 4) Wharf, 5) IGG.  HP over Wharf is probably just stubborn obstinancy at this point (I do buy it more often, but a large part of that gap is I used to underrate Wharf).  However, I am rock-solid confident that Mountebank needs to be ahead of Witch, and that IGG needs to be behind both HP and Wharf.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2012, 01:18:29 pm »
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Why smithy is ranked so high in the 4$ list if library is ranked so low here ? Library is a good card for big money, but also for a lot of (fun) engines. Fishing village, hamlet, vault, university, shanty town, festival, Inn…

As HiveMind said, because the $5s are much better than the $4s.  Also, a) without those specific enablers, Library is merely a Smithy you can't stack, and b) Smithy was badly overrated in the last list to begin with.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #62 on: August 01, 2012, 01:40:31 pm »
+1

Is one of those 3 cards Duke?  8)
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Tables

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #63 on: August 01, 2012, 01:53:21 pm »
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Oh gosh. I'm looking at my list now and thinking, was I drunk when I decided some of these $5's? (I wasn't, BTW). I had Market, Treasury, Bazzar - all pretty close in usefulness, all around 24-29, which is definitely about 5 places too high. I had City above them, too - although I think City really is that useful in most 3-4p games, which I did bear in mind (plus the fact that if you're using City, there's a pretty good chance it's a Colony game, as you're using Prosperity for a start). So I'd stick to City being higher than it is here, but probably because my criteria were more wide than 2p all cards.

Cartographer is underrated. It's extremely useful in many engines, for digging for those key cards you might need, and in many alt-VP or cursing games it's good for digging for good cards and discarding junk.

I'm a little surprised to have not seen Haggler yet. It's good, but it's pretty meh for a $5. Until late in the game, it's a terminal Silver that usually gets you a $3 or $4, and occasionally a $5. Late game, it becomes a terminal Hoard, whoop de doo.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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Titandrake

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #64 on: August 01, 2012, 02:53:06 pm »
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But...but Haggler is so good in engines. :(

Not as good in BM games, but free Silver never hurts.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #65 on: August 01, 2012, 02:54:06 pm »
0

Why smithy is ranked so high in the 4$ list if library is ranked so low here ? Library is a good card for big money, but also for a lot of (fun) engines. Fishing village, hamlet, vault, university, shanty town, festival, Inn…

As HiveMind said, because the $5s are much better than the $4s.  Also, a) without those specific enablers, Library is merely a Smithy you can't stack, and b) Smithy was badly overrated in the last list to begin with.
I care more about how Library is a superior BM card, especially with attacks around, than it is with engines, specific enablers or not.  Smithy is a weaker basis for BM than Library
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #66 on: August 01, 2012, 02:59:22 pm »
+1

Why smithy is ranked so high in the 4$ list if library is ranked so low here ? Library is a good card for big money, but also for a lot of (fun) engines. Fishing village, hamlet, vault, university, shanty town, festival, Inn…

As HiveMind said, because the $5s are much better than the $4s.  Also, a) without those specific enablers, Library is merely a Smithy you can't stack, and b) Smithy was badly overrated in the last list to begin with.
I care more about how Library is a superior BM card, especially with attacks around, than it is with engines, specific enablers or not.  Smithy is a weaker basis for BM than Library
That's simply false. Library is a better card to have for BM, but a worse card for BM. The extra cost does that. But the big thing is that most 5 cards are way, way better than the 4s.

dondon151

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #67 on: August 01, 2012, 04:28:09 pm »
+1

Why harvest is better than merchant ship in engines ? Because the fact you discard card can be positive for you.

So it makes a not-so-powerful combo with ~6 cards. OK.

Meanwhile, Merchant Ship yields +$4 spread over 2 turns and the second turn doesn't require an Action to get the benefit. The card doesn't even occupy a slot in your hand! That's kind of important for an engine that wants to do its thing consistently.

Why Harvest is bad in BM decks ? Because usually you have a lot of coppers, simply.

And Silver, and Gold, and Estate, and Duchy, and Province. Yeah, you won't hit $4 very often. But let's say that you do get unfortunate and hit 2 or 3 Copper at once. That means that you get to play your Silver and Gold sooner.

I mean, it's not great in BM decks. But it's certainly generally more useful than in engine decks, where you have to find a way to leave 3-4 different unique cards in your discard pile or on top of your deck in order to play Harvest for a worthwhile amount of coin (and unless you're hitting $4 consistently, Gold is only $1 more expensive). In most engine decks, you're drawing most, if not all, of your deck anyway, and there will be nothing to Harvest.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #68 on: August 01, 2012, 04:34:22 pm »
+3

Why harvest is better than merchant ship in engines ? Because the fact you discard card can be positive for you.

So it makes a not-so-powerful combo with ~6 cards. OK.

Meanwhile, Merchant Ship yields +$4 spread over 2 turns and the second turn doesn't require an Action to get the benefit. The card doesn't even occupy a slot in your hand! That's kind of important for an engine that wants to do its thing consistently.

Why Harvest is bad in BM decks ? Because usually you have a lot of coppers, simply.

And Silver, and Gold, and Estate, and Duchy, and Province. Yeah, you won't hit $4 very often. But let's say that you do get unfortunate and hit 2 or 3 Copper at once. That means that you get to play your Silver and Gold sooner.

I mean, it's not great in BM decks. But it's certainly generally more useful than in engine decks, where you have to find a way to leave 3-4 different unique cards in your discard pile or on top of your deck in order to play Harvest for a worthwhile amount of coin (and unless you're hitting $4 consistently, Gold is only $1 more expensive). In most engine decks, you're drawing most, if not all, of your deck anyway, and there will be nothing to Harvest.

So brokoli thinks it's bad in BM, and you think it's bad in engines? I agree with both of you.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #69 on: August 01, 2012, 04:45:38 pm »
0

Why harvest is better than merchant ship in engines ? Because the fact you discard card can be positive for you.

So it makes a not-so-powerful combo with ~6 cards. OK.

Meanwhile, Merchant Ship yields +$4 spread over 2 turns and the second turn doesn't require an Action to get the benefit. The card doesn't even occupy a slot in your hand! That's kind of important for an engine that wants to do its thing consistently.

Why Harvest is bad in BM decks ? Because usually you have a lot of coppers, simply.

And Silver, and Gold, and Estate, and Duchy, and Province. Yeah, you won't hit $4 very often. But let's say that you do get unfortunate and hit 2 or 3 Copper at once. That means that you get to play your Silver and Gold sooner.

I mean, it's not great in BM decks. But it's certainly generally more useful than in engine decks, where you have to find a way to leave 3-4 different unique cards in your discard pile or on top of your deck in order to play Harvest for a worthwhile amount of coin (and unless you're hitting $4 consistently, Gold is only $1 more expensive). In most engine decks, you're drawing most, if not all, of your deck anyway, and there will be nothing to Harvest.

So brokoli thinks it's bad in BM, and you think it's bad in engines? I agree with both of you.

Library is more of an engine supplement.  Whereas if you're down to your last Action with a Smithy in hand, you're hesitant to use it, because you might draw three more Action cards, I would never hesitate to play Library, because I know I'll get Treasures.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2012, 04:48:05 pm »
0

Harvest is best in tweener decks which are engine-ish and have trashed out most of their Coppers but can't consistently draw all the way.  If you're getting most of your card draw from, say, Menagerie, Harvest can be a good source of +Coin.

I also like it as a midgame buy in heavy attacking games where the presence of stuff like Curse-givers a) boosts your variety, b) makes it harder to reach $6 for Gold, and c) provides a buffer for terminal collision.  And of course it's an appealing target for Thrones and Kings.  Obviously if you're in one of the rare situations where you can use Harvest's cycling as a defensive boost, that's good too, but it is pretty rare- normally it makes no difference and maybe even hurts you a little while greening.

Really, the biggest problem with Harvest is that terminal treasure for $5, unless it comes with stuff like Attack or +Buy, is generally pretty weak even if it gives you good value (good value being $4) more often than not.  These sorts of things are pretty mediocre at any price level (c.f. Chancellor) but especially at $5 because there are just so many more powerful effects up here.  Just not a very inspiring class of cards.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 04:59:59 pm by chwhite »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2012, 04:53:52 pm »
0

Harvest is best in tweener decks which are engine-ish and have trashed out most of their Coppers but can't consistently draw all the way.  If you're getting most of your card draw from, say, Menagerie, Harvest can be a good source of +Coin.

I also like it as a midgame buy in heavy attacking games where the presence of stuff like Curse-givers a) boosts your variety, b) makes it harder to reach $6 for Gold, and c) provides a buffer for terminal collision.  And of course it's an appealing target for Thrones and Kings.  Obviously if you're in one of the rare situations where you can use Harvest's cycling as a defensive boost, that's good too, but it is pretty rare- normally it makes no difference and maybe even hurts you a little while greening.

Really, the biggest problem with Harvest is that terminal treasure for $5, unless it comes with stuff like Attack or +Buy, is generally pretty weak even if it gives you good value (good value being $4) more often than not.  It's pretty mediocre at any price level, but especially at $5 because there are just so many more powerful effects too.  It's just not a very inspiring class of cards.

Just thought of an odd trick: two worker's villages, play a workshop, gain a card, watchtower top deck.  KC-KC-Workshop, gain 3 different cards, watchtower top deck, Harvest, Harvest.  Buy 3 provinces.

Edit: this assumes your deck is empty to begin with.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2012, 04:57:13 pm »
0

Harvest is best in tweener decks which are engine-ish and have trashed out most of their Coppers but can't consistently draw all the way.  If you're getting most of your card draw from, say, Menagerie, Harvest can be a good source of +Coin.

I also like it as a midgame buy in heavy attacking games where the presence of stuff like Curse-givers a) boosts your variety, b) makes it harder to reach $6 for Gold, and c) provides a buffer for terminal collision.  And of course it's an appealing target for Thrones and Kings.  Obviously if you're in one of the rare situations where you can use Harvest's cycling as a defensive boost, that's good too, but it is pretty rare- normally it makes no difference and maybe even hurts you a little while greening.

Really, the biggest problem with Harvest is that terminal treasure for $5, unless it comes with stuff like Attack or +Buy, is generally pretty weak even if it gives you good value (good value being $4) more often than not.  It's pretty mediocre at any price level, but especially at $5 because there are just so many more powerful effects too.  It's just not a very inspiring class of cards.

Just thought of an odd trick: two worker's villages, play a workshop, gain a card, watchtower top deck.  KC-KC-Workshop, gain 3 different cards, watchtower top deck, Harvest, Harvest.  Buy 3 provinces.

Edit: this assumes your deck is empty to begin with.

Sounds more like a puzzle solution than a game tactic. :) Quick, delete your post and make a puzzle!
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dondon151

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #73 on: August 01, 2012, 05:31:02 pm »
0

So brokoli thinks it's bad in BM, and you think it's bad in engines? I agree with both of you.

Not quite. I think that it's worse in engines than it is in BM (in general), and it's not that good in BM.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #74 on: August 01, 2012, 11:23:58 pm »
+2

So you're guaranteed $2 when playing a Venture, making it another "Strictly Superior to Silver $5 Treasure Card".

Except at this very unfortunate moment for my opponent...

There is 1 province left and score is Arsenic03 28-33 heatthespurs. So whoever grab the last province win.

   --- Arsenic03's turn 20 ---
   Arsenic03 plays an Alchemist.
   ... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 action.
   Arsenic03 plays a Moneylender.
   ... trashing a Copper for +$3.
   Arsenic03 plays a Gold.
   Arsenic03 plays a Venture.
   ... revealing and playing a Potion.
   Arsenic03 buys a Duchy.
   Arsenic03 returns an Alchemist to the top of the deck.
   (Arsenic03 draws: 2 Alchemists, an Estate, a Province, and a Jester.)

--- heatthespurs's turn 21 ---
heatthespurs plays a Menagerie.
... revealing a Copper, a Silver, an Estate, and a Horse Traders.
... drawing 3 cards and getting +1 action.
heatthespurs plays a Horse Traders.
... getting +1 buy and +$3.
... discarding 2 cards.
heatthespurs plays a Gold, a Silver, and 2 Coppers.
heatthespurs buys a Province.
heatthespurs buys an Estate.
(heatthespurs draws: 2 Coppers, 2 Ventures, and a Menagerie.)

All Provinces are gone.
heatthespurs wins!

#1 heatthespurs: 40 points (5 Provinces, 2 Duchies, and 4 Estates); 21 turns
[38 cards] 4 Menageries, 3 Ventures, 2 Villages, 1 Horse Traders, 1 Jester, 1 Moneylender, 1 Oasis, 10 Coppers, 2 Silvers, 2 Golds, 4 Estates, 2 Duchies, 5 Provinces

#2 Arsenic03: 31 points (3 Provinces, 3 Duchies, and 4 Estates); 20 turns
[30 cards] 3 Alchemists, 3 Horse Traders, 3 Jesters, 3 Villages, 1 Moneylender, 1 Scheme, 1 Venture, 2 Coppers, 1 Potion, 2 Golds, 4 Estates, 3 Duchies, 3 Provinces


Due to Venture hitting a potion, he gets a 7 and miss the final province. I am sure it is pretty rare, though it may be nice to issue a warm reminder that this could happen (and may cost you a win)  :)
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