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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards  (Read 59353 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #125 on: August 04, 2012, 03:29:06 pm »
0

Sure. You hit the terminal venture problem. In cases where edge effects are important (cycling, venture hits nothing (which is cycling too)) you get a difference. Not otherwise. Note that what's going on there is that the first venture is essentially worth 10, the rest none. I still think cycling means that venture is GENERALLY weaker than equally valued other treasure when it comes to greening (and slightly better otherwise), but the effect is, in realistic game circumstances, really small.

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #126 on: August 04, 2012, 03:34:20 pm »
0

@ww agreed that realistically, the edge cases don't inform much about dominion strategy.

@ehalc, yeah, my numbers are a little silly, but e.g. if you're trying to buy a colony, the gold deck is much better. the point is only that if your deck must be "only the treasure of your choice and exactly y green cards" then for extremely large values of y you'll want the treasure to be venture and for extremely small values you won't.
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Voltgloss

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #127 on: August 04, 2012, 06:09:12 pm »
+2

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werothegreat

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #128 on: August 04, 2012, 06:11:42 pm »
+1

Is QVist going to finish putting these up before the Dark Ages previews start?  I mean, because once those start, 1) we'll be less interested in what we collectively thought of cards from all the other sets and 2) the lists will be obsolete...
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #129 on: August 04, 2012, 07:26:40 pm »
0

I mean, clearly 10 ventures and 90 green cards is a better deck than 10 golds and 90 green cards.

Perhaps the only cases where "venture is more flexible in a very green deck" hold true are unrealistic ones like this, but people are acting like that claim is based on a logical fallacy, which it's not.

This is a great example, actually. We're (or at least I am) talking about how resilient Venture decks are to greening relative to other decks. So Say you have 10 Ventures and N green cards. Whether N=0 or N=30, there is basically no difference. Now say instead you have 5 Silvers and 5 Golds and N green cards. Now there is a huge difference between the N=0 and N=30 case. Note that I'm not saying anything about the total value of the treasure, but only about how much difference each incremental green card makes.

This extreme case demonstrates the principle. It may be less obvious if you're comparing 6 Ventures, 3 Silvers, and 1 Gold to 7 Silvers and 3 Golds with a few action cards around as well, and you're comparing N=4 to N=6 or something. But the same thing is going on, just on a smaller scale. There is no fundamental difference. It's just that you might find it easier to ignore, or convince yourself that something different is going on.

Whether or not you think Venture is a strong card or think it's worth taking over Gold, you can't really argue that Venture decks are not more resilient to greening than typical decks (even if by a small amount). Arguments about what value to assign to the Venture really have nothing to do with this.
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blueblimp

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #130 on: August 04, 2012, 09:14:52 pm »
0

There is no fundamental difference.
The fundamental difference is whether you reshuffle or not when playing Venture (and also whether it whiffs). With 10 Ventures and no other treasure, you reshuffle with every play (and whiff with every play). With 6 Ventures, 3 Silvers, 1 Gold, it'll trigger reshuffles sometimes but not always (and whiff almost never). In a normal deck, it'll almost never trigger reshuffles (and never whiff).

And FWIW, there's a big difference between the statements "Venture is resistant to greening" and "Venture decks are resistant to greening". Full-out Venture decks behave weirdly, sure. A handful of Ventures in a normal deck are not any more resistant to greening than Gold is.

Edit: Like, all I am saying is that if you play Venture and it doesn't trigger a reshuffle, it does not sift. This is not a strawman, because (maybe only in the past?) posters would claim otherwise. The deck you're talking about (mass Ventures together with very few other treasures) is a totally different situation. I think what's going on there is that Venture is really "supposed to" have a high value, because of the chaining effect. But if your deck is small, then you get more whiffs (because you play Venture more than once per hand), which reduces its value. So it's not exactly that it's good in a green-heavy deck, but that it's bad in a trimmed deck.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 09:32:14 pm by blueblimp »
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Qvist

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #131 on: August 04, 2012, 10:22:12 pm »
0

Is QVist going to finish putting these up before the Dark Ages previews start?  I mean, because once those start, 1) we'll be less interested in what we collectively thought of cards from all the other sets and 2) the lists will be obsolete...

The previews only have few cards per day that first have to be tested out. This list isn't immediately obsolete. I'm going to post the third part in a few minutes and try to post the last part soon. Then only the Potion cost cards list - which won't change - and the $6 card list - which probably won't change much - is missing. I think this is acceptable.

I see that the interest is then more in testing out the new cards, but I hope you will still read the 2 missing lists. I didn't manage to finish them faster.

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #132 on: August 04, 2012, 10:24:29 pm »
0

Is QVist going to finish putting these up before the Dark Ages previews start?  I mean, because once those start, 1) we'll be less interested in what we collectively thought of cards from all the other sets and 2) the lists will be obsolete...

The previews only have few cards per day that first have to be tested out. This list isn't immediately obsolete. I'm going to post the third part in a few minutes and try to post the last part soon. Then only the Potion cost cards list - which won't change - and the $6 card list - which probably won't change much - is missing. I think this is acceptable.

I see that the interest is then more in testing out the new cards, but I hope you will still read the 2 missing lists. I didn't manage to finish them faster.

There will be some interest, considering there has been almost 2 pages of venture debate.
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Qvist

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #133 on: August 04, 2012, 10:25:46 pm »
+2

The Best $5 Cards - Part 3/4

#24 ▲10 Merchant Ship (Seaside) Weighted Average: 23.73 ▲5.56 / Median: 25 ▲7 / Mode: 26 ▲11 / Standard Deviation: 7.5 ▲1.2
Highest Rank(s): #6 (1x), #8 (1x), #12 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #38 (1x), #39 (1x), #42 (1x)

Merchant Ship is one of the big winners. 10 ranks and about 5.5 points better is a big change. Its unweighted average is on #23, new players seem to rate it a little bit higher.

Merchant Ship is a very simple card. Still it is ranked very differently. While Harvest is a not guaranteed $4, this now is a guaranteed $4, just split over two turns. It's good for Big Money games as it increases the probability to have $8 early as you only need $6 in hand in the following turn. And if you manage to play one each turn, this is basically $4 every turn. The probability of colliding Merchant Ships is also lower because of the Duration effect. In comparism to many other $5s, wher you either don't get guaranteed $4 or guaranteed $3, this card is really strong, many realised it (and may explain the change in rank). But there are still many (especially terminal) $5s that are superior.
#23 ▼5 Upgrade (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 23.70 ▼3.19 / Median: 26 ▼5 / Mode: 26 ▲2 / Standard Deviation: 8.7 ▼0.2
Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #9 (1x), #10 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #40 (1x), #41 (2x)

Your opinions really differ about Upgrade. This time it's 5 ranks and over 3 points worse. But the deviation is still very high as it has e.g. 3 votes in the Top 10. It was very close against Merchant Ship. Upgrade was 0.03 points better, but in the unweighted ranking it is on #24.

Non-terminal trashers or trash-for-benefit-cards are really strong. No surprise that Upgrade costs $5 so you can't open with it most of the times. With Upgrade you can trash your Coppers and Curses or turning your Estates into Silver without spending an action and keep playing all your other valuable action cards. This may also its best use. Spamming Upgrades and upgrading all other cards slowly to better cards seems nice, but is very slow. But Upgrading an Upgrade into an early Grand Market can be very strong. I like to add, that Upgrade is indeed a cantrip, that doesn't hurt your deck early on. But like Lookout, if you have a deck with a high quality density later on, this may be a dead card in your hand, when you don't want to trash a card from your hand. It's still no surprise Upgrade has some very high ranked openings, the best being Upgrade/Chapel on #16 ▲2 or Upgrade/Courtyard on #48.
#22 ▼3 Jester (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 23.23 ▼1.63 / Median: 22 ▲0.5 / Mode: 18 ▲8 / Standard Deviation: 8.7 ▼0.4
Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #8 (1x), #11 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #41 (1x), #44 (2x)

Jester is the third worst attack of all $5 cards. It has a very high deviation with some really low ranks (it was 5th last twice).

Jester is a very swingy attack. You can deal out Curses, you can spam Coppers. If your opponent and you are going for the same strategy, you can get very good cards from your Jester. If not, you have a really hard decision if you want that action card in your deck or give your opponent another free card. If you have a good running engine with any spying attack (like Scrying Pool), Jester is very good. In 3+ player games Jester is even stronger, because you can gain multiple good cards per turn. The main reason this attack is ranked that low, may be that you all take 2 player games into account where it's very swingy. Jester/Chapel is the #49 best opening.
#21 ▼1 Bazaar (Seaside) Weighted Average: 22.98 ▼1.14 / Median: 23 ▼1.5 / Mode: 20 ▼1 / Standard Deviation: 6.4 ▲1.3
Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #12 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #34 (3x), #36 (2x)

Bazaar has a very high rank with being #5 once. But still the consensus is really high for a middle ranked card with no big outliers in the low region.

You buy Bazar if you are building an engine, where you need additional money and +2 Actions. Not much more to say for me here, as it is a fearly simple card. Uncommon for a Village, Bazaar has a very high opening with Bazaar/Chapel on #31 ▼6.
#20 ▲5 Highway (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 22.94 ▲1.40 / Median: 22 ▲1 / Mode: 20 ▲8 / Standard Deviation: 6.5 ▲1.9
Highest Rank(s): #4 (1x), #6 (1x), #12 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #35 (3x)

Highway has two outliers in the upper regions, but none in the lower regions, making it the card with the "best worst rank" so far. It went only up 1.4 points, but still that means a rise of 5 ranks. Also the consensus is much higher on this card. It was very close between Highway and Bazaar, but Highway was by 0.04 points better.

Highway is highly dependant for supporter cards to make it useful. One vanilla Highway is really bad and even worse than Market or Treasury, it's just a Peddler, so basically only worth $4. It seems similar to Bridge, but in fact it isn't. You can use it as a cantrip Bridge, but most of the times this isn't worth it, because you need +Buy and either need a small deck to play multiples or big drawing power what also means you need villages. So that is really slow. The only real combo is Highway/Market in a small deck. But you can do things with Highway what would be very difficult with Bridge. It combos nice with Remodel/Farmland/Expand, so you can replace Coppers with Provinces. It can combo also with other trash-for-benefit cards, but most of the times they "anti-synergize". Its best use may to use it with cards with fixed cost in the card text like Saboteur, Smugglers, Feast, Ironworks, Horn of Plenty, etc to gain (or trash) Provinces with these cards. As Highway is good in small decks, Highway/Chapel is a #38 ▲18 opening.
#19 ▲2 Festival (Base) Weighted Average: 21.95 ▲0.03 / Median: 21 ▼1 / Mode: 21 ▲9 / Standard Deviation: 6.9 ▲0.8
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #7 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #33 (4x), #34 (1x), #35 (1x)

Festival has a one point lead over Highway and is 2 points better even though its rating nearly didn't change. It has a really big outlier on the second rank.

Festival is a simple card and is like a combined Village and (Grand) Market without the draw. The lack of draw is really the only downside of this card. Still it is good in any engine, giving the money and actions you need and if you have "draw up to ..." cards like Watchtower or Library, it's really great. In any Non-Big-Money game Festival is strictly superior to Silver.
#18 ▲14 Duke (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 19.89 ▲9.00 / Median: 21 ▲12 / Mode: 21 ▲17 / Standard Deviation: 9.3 ▲2.1
Highest Rank(s): #3 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #37 (2x), #38 (1x)

Victory cards were underrated in the last ranking. No surprise here that Duke did the highest jump of 14! ranks and was exactly 9 points better. But victory cards are still hard to rank. It has the highest deviation of all $5 cards with 9 times in the Top 10 and many low ranks on the other side, but the consensus is still way higher than last time. It has a big lead over Festival with over 2 points.

Duke is similar to Silk Road and Gardens Rushes as you need to get the Duchies and Dukes as fast as you can. So you need similar good supporter cards which help getting $5 even if you're already greening, like Vault, Hoard, Duchess, Horse Traders to name a few. Duke can be very strong as it can easily be worth 6-8 VP if your opponent doesn't deny your strategy and is better than Province in those cases. 3-piling isn't that hard afterwards as there are 2 piles already gone. The problem is to realize when a board is a good Duke board. With good attacks (Curser and Handsize-Reducer) you probably want those attacks instead and ignore Duchies/Dukes and go directly for Provinces.
#17 ▼1 Stables (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 19.56 ▼1.18 / Median: 19 ▼2.5 / Mode: 19 ▼4 / Standard Deviation: 7.7 ▼0.3
Highest Rank(s): #4 (1x), #9 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #32 (3x), #44 (1x), #46 (1x)

Stables lost one rank and around one point. It has 2 big outliers, it was even voted third last once.

When you try to evaluate Stables, the comparism to Laboratory is very obvious. Both give you an action and a hand with one card more. In games with no trashing a few Stables can even be stronger, because you get an additional Warehouse-like cycling effect. Just discard your Coppers and you'll see you valuable cards more often. If you buy Stables and don't play Big Money, then your action density increases and the chances that you draw no treasure cards with Stables in hand increases too. Then Stables may be a dead card in hand. Especially in cursing games Stables is weaker. And even if your only treasure card is a Gold it highly depends on your deck if you really want to discard the Gold for 3 new cards. But a few Stables, Silvers and a +Buy card like Horse Traders can make pretty good Hunting-Party-like deck. An early Stables is great and superior to Laboratory on a board with no trashing, but with more Action Cards, Victory Cards or Curses, Stables is getting weaker, so just don't buy too many. Just compare a hand of 5 Laboratories and 5 Stables.
#16 ▲7 Haggler (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 18.73 ▲4.03 / Median: 18 ▲4 / Mode: 18 ▲10 / Standard Deviation: 7.5 ▼0.5
Highest Rank(s): #8 (1x), 9 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #35 (1x), #36 (1x), #37 (1x)

Haggler is the next Hinterlands card with a boost. It's 7 ranks higher and more than 4 points better. But the disagreement is a little bit higher than last time.

Haggler is very good for building up engines with multiple components. It adds the Border Village effect to any card you wish and also gives $2, so you can be pretty sure to get two good cards if you play Haggler. And in the middle to end game you can use it as a pseudo Hoard to get a Gold for a Province or even a Platinum on Colony boards. With Haggler you don't necessarily need +Buys early, you even have to beware that you don't use your additional buy for a low-cost card, so you have to get an additional Copper. It is a good starter for any good engine, for example Hunting Party, so you can get one more Hunting Party for every bought Province. Haggler/Chapel is the #84 best opening.
#15 ▼5 Laboratory (Base) Weighted Average: 17.62 ▼4.84 / Median: 16 ▼5 / Mode: 13 ▼5 / Standard Deviation: 6.5 ▼0.4
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #4 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #29 (2x), #30 (1x), #32 (1x)

Laboratory is the first card that was previously in the Top 10. It dropped 5 ranks and also nearly 5 points. It is 8 times in the Top 10.

Unlike Stables, like mentioned above, Laboratory is a good card in nearly every deck. It increases the hand size by one which is a often underrated benefit. And if you have multiple Laboratories in your deck you have a consistent Village+Smithy engine in your deck where it isn't possible to draw dead. So, it's a engine on its own and you best begin early to build it. Therefore it's no surprise Laboratory/Chapel is on #19 ▲15 in the openings list.
#14 ▼2 Vault (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 15.50 ▼1.49 / Median: 14 =0 / Mode: 12 ▲3 / Standard Deviation: 7.9 ▲0.5
Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #7 (5x) / Lowest Rank(s): #35 (1x), #38 (1x), #42 (1x)

Vault was 12 times in the Top 10, but that's not enough to reach the Top 10, because it has some very low ranks too. Therefore the deviation is still very high for this card.

The +2 Cards that make the difference between Secret Chamber and Vault are very important to make Vault a good card and Secret Chamber a weak one. With every play of Vault you are guaranteed a Gold or even better a Grand Market. And if you have a Gold in hand or draw one you can buy a Province for sure. This makes Vault a great counter to cursing attacks and is still great after you've gone green. No surprise your opponent has the chance to make his hand better too, because this effect is very strong. This effect makes it also a good card for Duke. Like Secret Chamber it's also good if you can draw your whole deck for example with Scrying Pool, discard all actions for a lot of money, just to draw all actions again with another Scrying Pool. Similar to this, it's great in Double Tactician decks. The downside of this card is that it's very vulnerable to discarding attacks. Although it shines in big decks with a lot of junk the #11 ▲1 opening Vault/Chapel shows its strength if you are able to play it every turn.
#13 ▲1 Embassy (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 14.98 ▲1.93 / Median: 14 ▲2 / Mode: 14 ▼4 / Standard Deviation: 8.7 ▲0.6
Highest Rank(s): #4 (2x), #5 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #36 (1x), #41 (1x), #43 (1x)

Embassy has still a really high deviation. It was 15 times in the Top 10, still not enough for a rank in the Top 10 because of the many low ranks, including 2 big outliers below #40.

Embassy is a great Big Money card. An early Embassy is so good that your opponent gets a Silver for free. The mix of a terminal drawer and a Warehouse-like filter makes it that powerful. Yes, basically it's only +2 cards, but every time you play it, you can choose the best 6 cards out of 9 cards. Similiar to Envoy: If you have 5/2 and have the luck to draw it on turn 3, you may draw it in turn 4 and 5 again and will probably have already a huge lead, due to quick cycling. But it is also good in engines if you can guarantee to draw it with an action card. So just like Wharf it combos well with Fishing Village, it only misses the +Buy.
#12 ▲1 Margrave (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 14.30 ▲0.20 / Median: 13 ▲1.5 / Mode: 15 ▲3 / Standard Deviation: 6.3 ▲3.2
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #5 (1x), #7 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #31 (1x), #34 (1x), #36 (1x)

Margrave was 17 times in the Top 10 and even voted second once. It has a way better consensus this time. It is on #11 in the unweighted ranking.

Terminal drawers with +Buy are very strong as they tend to let you have many money in hand, more you often need for a Province. Council Room has the drawback of give your opponent another card, but Wharf is still to come in this list. Margrave gives you an additional discard attack. The discard attack itself is not as strong as Militia's or Goons' discard attack because your opponent may draw a card first. But the discard attack is still very strong. It's just like you play Council Room+Militia or Governor+Militia. Margrave is another good Big Money card. With $11 you can buy an additional Silver to your Province. And terminal draw and +Buy is all Fool's Gold needs. No surprise Margrave/Fool's Gold is the best opening on #135 ▲63. It's also a good addition to your engine, but you have to be careful to add not too many Margraves to your engine, because every time you play a Margrave your opponent has another chance to draw a hand like 2 Golds and a Silver to buy a Province himself.
#11 =0 Apprentice (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 13.81 ▼0.60 / Median: 14 =0 / Mode: 15 =0 / Standard Deviation: 6.9 ▼0.4
Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #6 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #27 (1x), #28 (1x), #45 (1x)

Apprentice is the last card before the Top 10 and before a big gap. It stayed on the same rank, but lost a little bit points. It has a really big outlier on fourth last, but beside of that vote there was none below #30. It is on #12 in the unweighted ranking.

Although you can use an early Apprentice to trash your Coppers, Apprentice epitomizes (just like Salvager) Trash-for-Benefit cards; because the benefit is huge. If you don't hesitate to trash e.g. a Gold to get 6! cards and draw at least a card with +Buy or a Gainer you can really fasten the game. With Apprentice+Hoard or Apprentice+Haggler you can buy a Province nearly every turn. It combos also nice with Border Village. And as being one of the strongest Trash-for-Benefit cards, I especially mention the danger in Possession games. Your opponent won't hesitate to trash a Province or even a Colony for drawing nearly your whole deck.

To the fourth part
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 06:47:00 am by Qvist »
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popsofctown

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 3/4 posted
« Reply #134 on: August 04, 2012, 10:46:42 pm »
+1

Ew at upgrade over Merchant Ship

And ew at Lab over Stables.  I think that's a bit of glorifying the best case scenarios instead of weighing average case scenarios.  Sure, the occasional trim can of awesome deck uses Labs instead of Stables because it has no Copper and is playing 10 Bridges or 10 Highways or 10 Barons or 10 Monuments or whatever, but realistically, Stables is usually a more powerful card because It labs, then lets you Cellar a copper.  Any deck without very heavy trashing is going to love that, because if you're a betweenish or Big Money deck you have all the coppers to hit, if you are an engine deck you want the Cellar effect to help you line up engine pieces like Village + Smithy, so much so you'll risk having to Stable a Silver sometimes.  Stables hitting Silver really isn't that bad, it's almost as good as Lab, because you draw two cards and then are forced to exchange a median-value-needed-for-Province for a random card, which if your deck is built right, should be median-value-needed-for-Province.  And if your deck is built wrong (you aren't ready yet), you get 6$ instead of 7$ or 5$ instead of 6$ and it's not so bad.

Of course, Stables can stack poorly and start fizzling more if you get too many.  But if the criticism of the card is, I bought too much of this card because only the first two were powerful, that's not a very good criticism, you might as well rank Chapel last because you can stack Lighthouses but not Chapels.

I think Lab is higher than Stables for the wrong reasons.

End of rant.

Venture doesn't help you green.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 3/4 posted
« Reply #135 on: August 04, 2012, 11:00:55 pm »
0

Wow, someone voted Apprentice fourth last?  Would love to hear that reasoning, haha.  Granted, I probably overrate that card a silly amount (I have it at #8).  Looking at my list, all of my top 10 are the main list's top 10 except I have Apprentice in there instead of Torturer (which I totally stand by). 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 11:03:20 pm by jsh357 »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 3/4 posted
« Reply #136 on: August 05, 2012, 12:09:50 am »
0

Glad Duke was ranked higher.
Oh, and Haggler.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #137 on: August 05, 2012, 01:29:36 am »
0

There is no fundamental difference.
The fundamental difference is whether you reshuffle or not when playing Venture (and also whether it whiffs). With 10 Ventures and no other treasure, you reshuffle with every play (and whiff with every play). With 6 Ventures, 3 Silvers, 1 Gold, it'll trigger reshuffles sometimes but not always (and whiff almost never). In a normal deck, it'll almost never trigger reshuffles (and never whiff).

And FWIW, there's a big difference between the statements "Venture is resistant to greening" and "Venture decks are resistant to greening". Full-out Venture decks behave weirdly, sure. A handful of Ventures in a normal deck are not any more resistant to greening than Gold is.

Edit: Like, all I am saying is that if you play Venture and it doesn't trigger a reshuffle, it does not sift. This is not a strawman, because (maybe only in the past?) posters would claim otherwise. The deck you're talking about (mass Ventures together with very few other treasures) is a totally different situation. I think what's going on there is that Venture is really "supposed to" have a high value, because of the chaining effect. But if your deck is small, then you get more whiffs (because you play Venture more than once per hand), which reduces its value. So it's not exactly that it's good in a green-heavy deck, but that it's bad in a trimmed deck.

It has nothing to do with the Venture triggering shuffles. The fact is that with Ventures (and no other card-type-specific sifters) in your deck, every time through the deck you see all your treasures, but you don't see all your other cards. This effect is always there with Venture. Clearly, the more you shuffle, the more pronounced it becomes, and it can definitely be argued that it's not worth buying Ventures if you're not going to shuffle a lot. But that doesn't make the effect of Ventures "fundamentally different" in a deck with lower Venture density. It just makes the effect smaller in scale.
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blueblimp

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #138 on: August 05, 2012, 01:37:04 am »
0

There is no fundamental difference.
The fundamental difference is whether you reshuffle or not when playing Venture (and also whether it whiffs). With 10 Ventures and no other treasure, you reshuffle with every play (and whiff with every play). With 6 Ventures, 3 Silvers, 1 Gold, it'll trigger reshuffles sometimes but not always (and whiff almost never). In a normal deck, it'll almost never trigger reshuffles (and never whiff).

And FWIW, there's a big difference between the statements "Venture is resistant to greening" and "Venture decks are resistant to greening". Full-out Venture decks behave weirdly, sure. A handful of Ventures in a normal deck are not any more resistant to greening than Gold is.

Edit: Like, all I am saying is that if you play Venture and it doesn't trigger a reshuffle, it does not sift. This is not a strawman, because (maybe only in the past?) posters would claim otherwise. The deck you're talking about (mass Ventures together with very few other treasures) is a totally different situation. I think what's going on there is that Venture is really "supposed to" have a high value, because of the chaining effect. But if your deck is small, then you get more whiffs (because you play Venture more than once per hand), which reduces its value. So it's not exactly that it's good in a green-heavy deck, but that it's bad in a trimmed deck.

It has nothing to do with the Venture triggering shuffles. The fact is that with Ventures (and no other card-type-specific sifters) in your deck, every time through the deck you see all your treasures, but you don't see all your other cards. This effect is always there with Venture. Clearly, the more you shuffle, the more pronounced it becomes, and it can definitely be argued that it's not worth buying Ventures if you're not going to shuffle a lot. But that doesn't make the effect of Ventures "fundamentally different" in a deck with lower Venture density. It just makes the effect smaller in scale.
But here you're comparing it to Peddler. If you count the treasure Venture draws as "seen", then you're valuing the Venture itself at just $1, like Peddler. I agree that Venture is more green-resilient than Peddler.

But usually Venture is viewed as a strictly-better-than-Silver treasure, not as a Peddler variant. That's why it matters how you account for the value of the card that Venture draws, because we're comparing to Silver/Gold, not to Peddler.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 3/4 posted
« Reply #139 on: August 05, 2012, 01:44:27 am »
0

Regarding part 3 of the list, I think Upgrade, Stables, Lab, and Bazaar are all too high. They are all potentially really good support cards, but they don't really have a lot of star power, and I think there enough cards with that star power that these should be lower -- around the top of the previous group. And Duke is much too low. Duke is a really important card that (like the other potentially high-value alt-VP cards) basically changes the object of the game. No matter what you do with your deck, it has to account for Duke. It either has to be able to quickly end the game before too many Dukes are acquired, or be able to handle having a lot of Duchies in the deck. Stuff like Lab and Stables you can just straight-up ignore a lot of the time.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 2/4 posted
« Reply #140 on: August 05, 2012, 01:51:49 am »
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But here you're comparing it to Peddler. If you count the treasure Venture draws as "seen", then you're valuing the Venture itself at just $1, like Peddler. I agree that Venture is more green-resilient than Peddler.

But usually Venture is viewed as a strictly-better-than-Silver treasure, not as a Peddler variant. That's why it matters how you account for the value of the card that Venture draws, because we're comparing to Silver/Gold, not to Peddler.

I again point you to the extreme case with 10 Ventures vs 10 Silvers (or 10 Golds or 10 Coppers -- your choice since the actual coin value on the card is irrelevant to the nature of the resilience to greening). You can't deny that there is something going on here. You're just confusing yourself trying to view things in different, incomplete ways. If you talk about the Venture taking on the value of the cards it draws and assume you never shuffle, and all kinds of other crazy assumptions, you just obscure what Venture is actually doing. That's why it's useful to think of extreme cases where nothing else is going on.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 3/4 posted
« Reply #141 on: August 05, 2012, 02:18:39 am »
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The good news is that, just as with the worst $5s, the best $5s are exactly right.  I had the same top 10 as the community list, so yay.  And I had Apprentice and Margrave as 11 and 12, so yay for that too.

Most of the rest of this list is just a little off. Pops is right that Stables ought to be better than Lab; I actually had Lab at #15 but put Stables up at #13 instead.  I had Upgrade a couple slots higher, and Haggler a couple lower: Haggler is a great engine builder and can be a serviceable pseudo-Hoard sometimes but I find that I end up buying it not quite often enough to justify ranking it higher: sometimes there are power $5s you can't afford to ever skip buying, sometimes the Haggler can make you take a Copper, and if there aren't Villages you often want other terminals. As for Upgrade, I'm just going to make the general observation that non-terminal trashing is underappreciated in general around these parts (Loan, Lookout, and Spice Merchant all deserved better than they got here, some of them far better).  Eh, #23 is a few spots lower than I had but still reasonable.

And I had Bazaar higher.  That's another underappreciated card.   All of you grouping it in with Market and Treasury rather than Festival and City are doing it wrong.  It is a Village, and a damn good one at that.

...

But a little bit of this list is WAY off.  I'm not surprised at all to see Duke and Highway be so wildly, massively overrated, but I was a little blindsided about Merchant Ship.  Those were, of course, the three I had at #33 (Duke), #34 (Highway), and #35 (Merchant Ship).  So yeah, I was almost the worst rank for two of these cards. 

For Merchant Ship- my argument against this card was alluded to in the discussion about Harvest: the problem with it is that terminal treasure with no other bonus, as a class of card, is just always underwhelming to me. This is a card I only pick up around 30 percent of the time, a lower percentage than all but one card outside of the bottom group.  I mean, sure, it is definitely the best terminal treasure card- but it's underwhelming in engines (sometimes useful, okay), and pretty darn bad in Terminal Draw BM.  I understand that some folks like it in BM that isn't terminal draw, and I guess it can be alright in that capacity, but when you factor in how often I don't buy it, and the fact that its effect doesn't really ever warp the board, I think it has to be ranked pretty lowly.  (Yes, I am aware that the Duration effect mitigates its terminal-ness, but that should be balanced against the fact that the Duration effect also forces missed reshuffles and makes it give somewhat less than $4 due to the time value of money.)

Highway, eh, maybe it's better that #34.  But it is sure as hell a lot closer to #34 than #20.  Without +Buy or gain, it is just a Peddler.  And a $5 Peddler is a pretty rotten deal!  I buy Highway barely more than half the time, compared to over 80% for the general populace.  Whereas Bridge gives you the +Buy to take advantage of cost shenanigans (and Bridge is an overbought card to begin with), Highway is well and useless without specific triggers (really you need not just a separate +Buy, but sufficient trashing/cycling, and a lack of disruptive attacks).  Highway is #8 on Council Room for "Win Rate Without", the sure sign of an overrated card.  Okay, sure, when the combo comes together, Highway can be amazing, so maybe #34 is not quite fair.  But like my ranking of Black Market, it's so overrated that someone's got to do it.

So we come, now, to Duke.  I put it at #33 because I wanted to recognize that BM players seem to like it, but if it was based only on my experience, Duke would be lower than Highway and Merchant Ship, and rubbing shoulders with Outpost*.  This is a card I buy only 27 percent of the time, less often than Chancellor.  It relies on Duchy, and Duchy is far as I'm concerned "that card you buy when you're losing".   This is a card I win without far, far more often than I win with- most engines want nothing to do with Duke; most other alt-VP strategies are preferable because they don't rely on $5s, Curse games frequently 3-pile on Duchy, Curse and something else before you even have the chance to pick one up, I wouldn't even go Duke in many Big Money games (though it's better there).  So, okay, maybe I'm biased.  Let's look at the general Council Room stats to correct my mistakes.  Except that people in general only buy Duke 28 percent of the time, and lose with it more often than they win (albeit not quite as lopsidedly as I do).  Case closed.

* I buy Outpost almost as often as I buy Duke, and find it to be roughly as disruptive when good- getting twice as many turns as your opponent during the peak of your engine is, I'd say, roughly comparable to an alt-VP which can outscore Province if unchecked.
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cherdano

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 3/4 posted
« Reply #142 on: August 05, 2012, 05:00:41 am »
+2

Bazar:Festival ::
Lab:Market

How can Festival be ranked higher than Bazaar?? I don't think the watchtower/library combo is enough to justify that.
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dondon151

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 3/4 posted
« Reply #143 on: August 05, 2012, 06:54:07 am »
0

Yeah, I don't particularly like Festival that much. The payoff is larger, but it exchanges quite a bit of consistency in a drawing engine because it lacks the +1 card...
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Tables

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 3/4 posted
« Reply #144 on: August 05, 2012, 07:38:43 am »
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Dislike Haggler's rating. I find it's very similar to Develop. It seems awesome, gain loads of cards for free! But it's so board dependant until near endgame (where you can reliably pick up e.g. Gold with a $5 or Province with a Gold, when you'd probably prefer Duchy anyway, and in engines if there's a cheap card you want lots of, you can't easily buy them if you play your Haggler. When it works well, it shines, but well you can say that about most $5's. It doesn't work well very often, I've probably seen it in 30+ games, and it's only been a major player in one or two games. According to my Council Room, I have a much higher win rate given available with it, and a considerably higher win rate when I ignore it compared to buying it. I was the (possibly joint) 4th lowest rating of Haggler at #34, and I don't think it deserves much higher than that.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

werothegreat

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 3/4 posted
« Reply #145 on: August 05, 2012, 09:55:56 am »
+1

Bazar:Festival ::
Lab:Market

How can Festival be ranked higher than Bazaar?? I don't think the watchtower/library combo is enough to justify that.

Scheme:Apprentice ::
Herbalist:Salvager

That one kinda blew my mind when I first realized it.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 3/4 posted
« Reply #146 on: August 05, 2012, 10:12:48 am »
0

Bazar:Festival ::
Lab:Market

How can Festival be ranked higher than Bazaar?? I don't think the watchtower/library combo is enough to justify that.

Festival's +Buy is relatively more valuable than Market's +Buy because engines generally want both +Action and +Buy, so getting both of them together is particularly useful.

That being said, while this effect is enough to bring Festival to near-parity with Bazaar, Bazaar is still a tiny bit better.
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AJD

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 3/4 posted
« Reply #147 on: August 05, 2012, 11:46:08 am »
0

Bazar:Festival ::
Lab:Market

How can Festival be ranked higher than Bazaar?? I don't think the watchtower/library combo is enough to justify that.

Scheme:Apprentice ::
Herbalist:Salvager

That one kinda blew my mind when I first realized it.

Copying this over to the analogies thread...!
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werothegreat

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards Part 3/4 posted
« Reply #148 on: August 05, 2012, 11:53:47 am »
0

Bazar:Festival ::
Lab:Market

How can Festival be ranked higher than Bazaar?? I don't think the watchtower/library combo is enough to justify that.

Scheme:Apprentice ::
Herbalist:Salvager

That one kinda blew my mind when I first realized it.

Copying this over to the analogies thread...!

We have one of those?

Also, P.S.

...

...

...

...

...

STOP TALKING ABOUT VENTURE.  MY EYES ARE BLEEDING.

(you thought I was going to say "one more day!", didn't you?)
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« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 01:32:21 am by AJD »
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