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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards  (Read 36907 times)

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Qvist

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The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« on: July 04, 2012, 08:36:31 am »
+5

The Best $3 Cards - Part 1/2
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#26 ▼1 Chancellor (Base) Weighted Average: 24.07 ▼1.1 / Median: 25 ▼1 / Mode: 26 ▼1 / Standard Deviation: 2.2 ▲0.7
Highest Rank(s): #17 (1x), #18 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (19x)

With a very low deviation Chancellor is the worst $3 card this year. It's still a few outliners, but they can't let it get a better rank.

Being in the Base Set, most players (like me) didn't got the use of Chancellor at first. Yes, it costs $3 like Silver and gives also 2 coins, but it costs an action for what? To put your deck into your discard pile? Why do I want to do that? You can get your recently buyed great cards faster! Yeah, that sounds great. But those great cards are mostly terminals and then Chancellor becomes a dead card. I think it would be a better card if it wasn't terminal. So it's only good for rare scenarios like Stash or Counting House. And if you want to get your recently buyed cards earlier, use cards that put these cards on top of your deck like Royal Seal or Watchtower.
#25 ▲1 Develop (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 23.49 ▲0.81 / Median: 25 =0 / Mode: 26 =0 / Standard Deviation: 3.3 ▼0.8
Highest Rank(s): #11 (1x), #14 (1x), #15 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (23x)

Develop is not last anymore, but still second last. I expected it higher, but there seem to be many players which even still think it's bad or still don't see the use of it. So it's still the card with the most last places. The significantly higher deviation shows the disagreement between the players.

A good trasher mostly has to be a good start buy. Develop can only trash one copper at a time without benefit. You get a Silver for a trashed Estate, which can be put on top of your deck. That's at least really nice. Later in the game you get 2 cards for trashing one. This is something you only want if there are a lot of really good cards in the supply and most important in a specific price range. Because you have to gain a card which cost exactly one more and one less than the trashed card. Those cases are rare. It's good with good $5s and $7s like developing a Gold into a King's Court and a Wharf putting both on top of the deck. In the end of the game you want victory cards. So you can trash a $4 card for a Duchy and a Silver. But you have to put both cards on top of your deck. That is something you don't want if you're going for Provinces or Colonies. Developing a Silver in a Estate and Silk Road can be really nice for example. But you have to put them on your deck, really nasty. So it often fails in being a good trasher, you have to see it as a gainer instead of a trasher. I think that's something many of us didn't see at the beginning and can explain it was rated better now.
#24 =0 Woodcutter (Base) Weighted Average: 22.01 ▲0.38 / Median: 22 ▲1 / Mode: 24 ▼3 / Standard Deviation: 3.1 ▼0.1
Highest Rank(s): #12 (1x), #13 (1x), #14 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #25 (11x), #26 (2x)

Another card from the base set, but it went up a little bit. It got #24 14 times and even last twice. Its deviation is still low and shows the consensus on that card.

It mostly worse than Silver as its only use is its +Buy. So, you only buy it if you really need that +Buy for setting up your engine and there's no other card that provides that. You can use it very well for a Gardens or Silk Road rush, but beside of that, there's not really much to say about that simple card.
#23 =0 Fortune Teller (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 21.03 ▲0.02 / Median: 22 =0 / Mode: 24 =0 / Standard Deviation: 4.0 ▲0.2
Highest Rank(s): #8 (1x), #10 (1x), #12 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (4x)

Fortune Teller is one of the worst attacks in the game and the first attack of all lists so far. And as it is an Attack Card, several players gave it a mid-level rank. That may explain its clearly higher deviation compared to the previous cards. Its mode still is bad, 12 times it got #24.

In games with trashers you want your Estates in hand and get rid of them, especially with Lookout Fortune Teller is bad. If you've trashed them, Fortune Teller just cycles through your deck, so your opponent mostly profits from your attack. In Tournament and Tunnel (with assistance of Inn, Young Witch or Vault) games you help your opponent even more. And in all other occasions there are mostly cards that soft counter top-decked victory cards or get profit from them by discarding. If those cases all don't exist, Fortune Teller might be a good buy, but those cases are very rare too. It gets better in the end game, but in the end game mostly you don't waste your buy for a Fortune Teller. And in comparism to Rabble which can be very nasty, Fortune Teller doesn't even get more benefit if you play two or more in one turn.
#22 =0 Workshop (Base) Weighted Average: 20.82 ▼0.24 / Median: 21.5 ▲0.5 / Mode: 23 =0 / Standard Deviation: 3.6 ▲0.1
Highest Rank(s): #9 (1x), #12 (1x), #14 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (4x)

And there's already the third card from the base set with only one card left to come. It is just a little bit higher than Fortune Teller, but that may result from a lot of players that seem to love it. It got #23 10 times.

You must ask yourself: How many $3 or $4 cards do I want in my deck. With Gardens in the supply, you may answer "as many I can get". Silver, Gardens, Estates and more Workshops are all good cards. But in all other situations you want $5 cards and Gold. And in comparism to Ironworks where you at least get benefit and isn't terminal if you gain action cards, it's a "wasted" action. The only cards that you want as many you can get may be Tournament, Caravan, Conspirator and any Village + card drawer (Envoy/Smithy). But for all you have to spend your action and you have to be sure there isn't another terminal action you want to play too.
#21 ▼4 Great Hall (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 18.51 ▼1.76 / Median: 17 ▼0.5 / Mode: 17 ▼4 / Standard Deviation: 4.2 ▲0.3
Highest Rank(s): #8 (1x), #9 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #24 (2x), #25 (1x), #26 (1x)

Great Hall is the first card with a bigger change. I went down 4 ranks, even though the weighted average only went down less than 2 points and the median even only a half point. This and the big lead over Workshop foreshadow that the next cards are very close together. It was on #17 11 times.

There is not much to say to Great Hall beside how difficult it is to rank. It's an Estate that don't hurt your deck, so that's really nice. And you can buy it early if you have an additional buy and $3 left and don't need another Silver. It also supports Silk Road strategies nicely. You can even use Throne Room or King's Court with it for additional benefit if you're really desperate. It can enable Conspirator chains and other rare cases where another cantrip is useful. The best combo might be with Ironworks where you can pick it up and get a cantrip bonus. But it's never a card you use for your strategy, instead you buy it if you have $3 left and don't need more money, then you're glad to pick another VP. And you often buy Estates in the end game, Estates you will may never see in your hand. In those cases it doesn't even matter if you pick up a Great Hall or an Estate.
#20 =0 Smugglers (Seaside) Weighted Average: 18.03 ▲0.06 / Median: 18 ▼0.5 / Mode: 13 ▲6 / Standard Deviation: 5.6 ▼1.3
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #5 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (7x)

Smugglers lost no rank, but agreement. It's the card in this list with the highest deviation and therefore biggest disagreement. It has the third most last places as it got last 7 times. In the last list it was not even voted last a single time. On the other side there big outliers such a second place (!). In this big range it achieved a luckily good mode with 8 times on #13. Why this disagreement?

With Smugglers the luck factor is high. If your opponent has bought a card which you don't want, it's a dead card, especially later in the game where he buys only Provinces. And with Smugglers in your deck, you have to commit to the strategy of your opponent and mostly don't get better than him. Smuggle a Gold early or smuggle an additional Duchy (especially with Duke) in the late game is really nice, but with a supply with many terminals, you rather buy the good terminals and money instead of wasting your action for getting another Silver or another terminal you won't be able to play. But if there are many cantrips and you're going to build a neat engine, Smugglers can be a good buy. And if you're not going first you can compensate this disadvantage. King's Courting a Smugglers can also be very strong in a good running engine. We can say, Smugglers is very board-dependant and can be a very good buy on some boards, especially if you're not going first.
#19 =0 Shanty Town (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 17.63 ▼0.32 / Median: 18 ▼0.5 / Mode: 21 ▼9 / Standard Deviation: 4.1 ▲0.3
Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #8 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #24 (3x), #25 (1x)

Shanty Town pretty much stayed were it was although its coincidentially high mode now got really low. It's the first card with no last place so far and has (one fifth place) a big outlier as well. It was on #21 9 times.

Shanty Town is a very problematic village. If you want villages you have many terminals and want to build an engine. Shanty Town is bad as it only gives you +2 Actions and is actually worse than Native Village for example. If you want the +2 Cards for a Big Money strategy, the +2 Actions are wasted. And if you have multiple Shanty Towns in hand and no terminals, it's even worse. The best use is to minimize bad draw luck, when you have many terminals, but have the bad luck to not draw them with your village. Then you have a second shot to draw them with your +2 Cards. And if you have 2 Shanty Towns and 1 terminal in hand, it's not bad after all. Play your first Shanty Town, then your terminal and then you can play the second one and hopefully draw more terminals. But the raw benefit is in this case the same as you would get out of a "normal" Village. And even if you play basically Big Money, Shanty Town serves like a Laboratory for you.
#18 ▼5 Loan (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 17.17 ▼2.95 / Median: 17 ▼4 / Mode: 20 ▼8 / Standard Deviation: 4.3 ▲0.9
Highest Rank(s): #8 (1x), #9 (1x), #10 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (3x)

Here is your first card from Prosperity. And wow, the biggest loser so far. 5 ranks and nearly 3 points is a big drop and it was even last three times. And the agreement in the rank of this card increased. It was voted on #20 8 times.

You can trash without spending an action, that's always great. It also gives at least one coin which is no big deal, but is still better than Trade Route early. And you don't need to trash a card from your hand, so you have still 4 cards in your hand you can play. But this is also a problem: That involves a luck factor as it may find every time your only Silver in your deck which you even can't play in your next turn (and may discard all your good terminals at the same time). Also it's limited to treasure cards and therefore basically to Copper. So it has advantages and disadvantages and some may evaluate the advantages higher while others seem to do it vice versa. That you can't choose the card you want to trash, might be the reason many of you rank it lower than the last time. Sea Hag / Loan is better than Sea Hag / Silver on #92 of the best openings.
#17 ▼3 Trade Route (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 17.09 ▼1.71 / Median: 17 ▼2 / Mode: 20 ▼3 / Standard Deviation: 4.1 ▲0.2
Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #7 (1x), #10 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #24 (4x), #25 (1x)

The next card from Prosperity and another loser and it was very close between those two cards. Nevertheless it's the second card with no last place and it's the first card so far which would've been on a different rank if the votes wouldn't have been weighted (#16). That means that experienced players rank it a little bit lower than unexperienced players. It was voted on #20 10 times.

It's not a very good trasher as a opening buy as you don't get enough benefit until the end of the game (beside the buy). It's better if there are additional victory cards in the supply, especially action/victory cards like Island or Nobles that get bought earlier, but still, as a trasher it's no good opening buy. Buying green cards earlier just to get more benefit is rarely a good decision as your opponent may buy Trade Routes too and get the same benefit without clogging up his own deck. Mostly you buy it if it's the only source of +Buy and you really need that +Buy and later in the game where you're going green and it's really a neck-and-neck-race, so Trade Routes are now worth $3, $4 or even more. Then they can be really powerful. So, some of you may have ranked it as opener, the other players may have ranked it as strong card in the later game. But quality is more often defined how useful it is in the beginning, so it's no suprise that it lost 3 ranks.
#16 ▲2 Wishing Well (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 16.75 ▲0.53 / Median: 17 ▲1 / Mode: 16 ▲3 / Standard Deviation: 4.3 ▼0.3
Highest Rank(s): #9 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #25 (3x)

With the increase of only half a point Wishing Well benefits from the drop of the two Prosperity cards. As mentioned, it was voted lower from unexperienced players than from better players. 9 players ranked it on #16.

Wishing Well is a very interesting card, but of course very luck-dependant. Ok, it can never hurt, but in most of the decks it's just a cantrip and you may have better bought a Silver. Another problem is that you have to guess the second card, so that cards like Spy, Lookout that seem to synergize don't work. But with cards like Apothecary or Cartographer it works really well. Then it can be a guaranteed cheap Laboratory. And in some decks you only buy a few different cards, so you can maximize your probability. And if you're really good with card counting, this is really a good card if there are few cards left in your draw pile. It's also a very good counter against Ghost Ship. Young Witch / Wishing Well is even better than Young Witch / Silver on #120 of the best openings.
#15 =0 Black Market (Promo) Weighted Average: 15.95 ▼0.34 / Median: 16 ▼1 / Mode: 13 =0 / Standard Deviation: 4.7 ▲0.1
Highest Rank(s): #4 (1x), #6 (1x), #7 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #23 (3x), #25 (1x)

Here's your first promo with a very high spread of ranks. Like last time it was the card with the third highest deviation. It got #13 8 times.

It's hated by many players as it has a very high luck factor. You may draw in turn 3 the only curse-giving attack in the game, but you may also draw Treasure Map, Fool's Gold and Peddler. Or you draw 3 potion cost cards when you don't have a Potion in play or even in your deck. Playing your treasures in the buy phase can lead to many confusing rules questions, but can also lead to the well-known Tactician + Black Market combo where you can discard your hand in a Tactician turn with another Tactician after you've played all your treasures with Black Market. Many Cornucopia cards also benefit from the diversity you add to your deck by buying many cards from Black Market. The most famous combo may be Fairgrounds + Black Market where Fairgrounds can easily be worth 6VP but even 8VP or more are possible. But also cards like Harvest or Menagerie benefit from such diverse decks you can get from Black Market. So when do you really want to buy a Black Market when there's no Fairgrounds or Tactician in the supply? Either you know there are many good attacks in the Black Market pile and don't want your opponent get them or you don't want to win at all costs and just have fun playing with it and your friends and rely on your luck.
#14 ▲2 Oasis (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 15.49 ▲0.86 / Median: 15 ▲0.5 / Mode: 15 =0 / Standard Deviation: 4.3 ▼1
Highest Rank(s): #7 (2x), #9 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #24 (1x), #25 (1x), #26 (1x)

Oasis is a Hinterlands card and of course it went up like most of the Hinterlands cards so far. It went up nearly one point, but on the other side the disagreement got higher as shown by the significantly higher deviation. It was on #15 14 times and even last once.

At first I read it as "+1 Action $1", basically a Copper. But it's much better as you get money out of your victory cards or curses, like Vault or Secret Chamber do. It's limited to one card, but it is a cantrip. It's not a very strong card, but it is a very nice addition to many strategies, especially if there's no heavy trashing possible and is especially good on cursing boards or on boards with early greening. If there are hand-size reducing attacks on the board, Oasis is on the other side rarely a good buy. It synergizes well with "draw up to" cards, so it's no surprise that JaoT/Oasis on #152 is a little bit better as opener than simply JaoT/Silver.
#13 ▼2 Lookout (Seaside) Weighted Average: 14.76 ▼3.15 / Median: 14 ▼3 / Mode: 13 ▼5 / Standard Deviation: 4.5 =0
Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #8 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #25 (1x), #26 (2x)

We're now in the upper half, but the big gap is between #12 and #13, so here's another card. Lookout went down only 2 ranks, but with a drop of over 3 points, it's one of the biggest losers. It still has a high deviation and is the last card with a last place, no it got even 2 last places. It was 9 times on #13.

The positive part is: It's a non-terminal trasher which is of course very powerful. It can trash a card which is even not in your hand. It also counters top-deck-attacks, especially Sea Hag (Sea Hag / Lookout is currently the #56 ▼25 best opening), very well. And with the support of "spying" cards you are guaranteed trashing a bad card. All this is similar to Loan. But Loan can only trash the first card. With Lookout you can even choose between three cards. But: In the late game, it's a dead card in your hand, because it becomes dangerous. Who doesn't fear drawing 3 Provinces or even Colonies and having to trash one? More and more players seem to rank it that low because of that fear. The fear isn't justified mostly, but you have to keep that in mind. Especially if you have only 2 or even 1 card in your drawing deck.

To Part 2
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 11:39:18 am by Qvist »
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2012, 09:10:02 am »
0

Interesting… I completely disagree ! :D
For me, the underrated cards are : Great hall, Shanty town, and especially Loan, Fortune teller.
On the other side, workshop seems really overrated. It is useful with Alt VP strategies but otherwise …

Glad to see Oasis higher than the last year.
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Davio

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2012, 09:23:10 am »
0

I'm still not completely over my initial Oasis hatred, but I'm loving it more.

Still, rarely a disappearing Copper wins over Silver for me.
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DStu

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2012, 09:24:26 am »
0

Workshop fifth from below overrated? We of course may discuss FT below it, but Woodcutter and Chancellor? Develop is a difficult card that in most games would be last on this llst and in some would be 3rd, and in very very few would be average.

I had
Loan<Oasis<GH<Chancellor from below, we can discuss the Chancellor, but Loan is so weak without help from other trashers. The Coppers usually are your econmy in the beginning, and when you can't get rid of your Estates but trash your Coppers you often get nowhere.  Not talking about hitting your Silvers...
Oasis is often an average card which is not bad per se, but still slightly worse than Silver. Maybe slightly better than Silver sometimes, but so what, Silver>Oasis is often not a big mistake. If at all. And Silver is always on the board... Excluding Tunnels(!), Lib etc, so some nice tricks, but these nice tricks you have for every card.
Great Hall ist just, hey yeah, nice with IW, Pool, Conspirator, but (except IW) there are tons of cards I would rather have than a GH. And in standard games for a long time this includes Silver.
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Davio

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2012, 09:35:59 am »
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Question: Is Silver also on this list?

Would be fun to see where it sits.
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Tdog

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2012, 09:48:46 am »
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Woodcutter third to last? Plus buy is good! How can you argue that's worse then great hall, a do-nothing card? Or fortune teller? Neither of these cards are an important card of a good engine. Woodcutter can be very important if it's the only source of plus buy.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2012, 09:52:58 am »
+1

Well, Great Hall works with Hoard, Silk Roads, Ironworks, Crossroads, Tribute and to a lesser extent Scrying Pool, maybe that's enough to get it past Woodcutter?
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Tdog

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2012, 09:59:26 am »
0

 
Well, Great Hall works with Hoard, Silk Roads, Ironworks, Crossroads, Tribute and to a lesser extent Scrying Pool, maybe that's enough to get it past Woodcutter?
But Woodcutter works well with most engines, which is more common then those cases. Tribute, crossroads, and ironworks aren't good strategies in upon themselves. If you're going with those as a part of an engine, woodcutter will most likely be better.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2012, 10:05:53 am »
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I think Woodcutter is contingent on +buy being important, which it isn't in every game.  Nevertheless I would still put it better than Workshop or Develop.

I think it's funny that Chancellor is now considered so bad; people used to say it was great because you could cycle your deck, but I guess everyone's decided it's not worth a terminal to do that.  It combos with Stash, I guess...and at least it gives +2 money so it does something, unlike some other bottom-of-the-barrel cards (thief, scout, counting house)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 10:12:17 am by yudantaiteki »
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2012, 10:11:43 am »
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The 5 worst cards for me : Smugglers, Chancellor, Woodcutter, Workshop and last Develop (even if I LOVE it).

I don't understand how someone ranked Great Hall last. It's like saying duchy is the worst of the $5 cards…
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 10:47:20 am by brokoli »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2012, 10:15:10 am »
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Hm, some interesting disagreements with my list. I had Chancellor a full six places higher - compared to say, Woodcutter and Fortune Teller, Chancellor always seems more useful. Woodcutter's extra buy only tends to matter in the mid-late game, and as an engine source of extra buy it's mediocre at best. Fortune Teller's attack, if it even hits, provides cycling to the opponent but weakens their next hand. It's kinda, almost nothing. Chancellor's discard sometimes doesn't help, but you generally have a reasonable number of cards in deck (e.g. open 3/4, Chancellor has a 7/12 chance of being drawn with nothing on the discard pile), and generally discarding speeds you up nicely. It's not great, but it's better than most of the low cards in my opinion.

I also had Great Hall a lot higher, but looking back, I remember I submitted the $3 list without properly checking it. That's one I'd have likely dropped 3-4 places. Probably to just above Chancellor.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2012, 10:23:10 am »
0

I think this is a pretty good list so far.  Here are the ones I placed differently:
- Oasis and Wishing Well, which I rank a lot lower, but I'll admit I'm probably bad with the cards.  I can definitely see why WW is ranked as high as it is, but not Oasis really.
- Trade Route, which IMO should definitely be in the top half, though not TOO high up.
- Smugglers, but yeah, its value is pretty up in the air so I understand why it's ranked that low.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2012, 10:28:13 am »
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Oasis seems way overrated here. It feels like I lose pretty much everytime I buy it, even in its supposed good spot with curses or early greening.

Fortune Teller is underrated. I feel like its a decent opener and skipping someones opening buys can be a killer.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2012, 10:54:46 am »
+1

I don't understand the Oasis hate.  Its value is dependent on the board, just like most cards. 

If you want to build an engine where money would clog your deck, Oasis can be a godsend.  It lets you keep your deck cycling a bit while still giving you enough money to buy engine parts. 

If your deck is full of crap, Oasis can be good, but I don't think this is the best scenario.  Yes, you can discard crap, but you may also draw crap. 

If it's more of a BM-leaning game, silver might be preferable. 
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2012, 11:03:00 am »
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I don't understand the Oasis hate.  Its value is dependent on the board, just like most cards. 
It's not hate, I just don't think it's not usefull, or more usefull than Silver

Quote
If you want to build an engine where money would clog your deck, Oasis can be a godsend.  It lets you keep your deck cycling a bit while still giving you enough money to buy engine parts.
But it does it on a very small path.  First, you are paying $3 for an addition of $1 to your deck. In a situation where you want to get most of your deck anyway, and prepare for large turns, that's not very good. Than, your handsize after playing Oasis decreased by one. Yes, you got to look 1 card further to find your engine parts, but that's all. Yes, with Libraries that's a completely different story, but still here. It's just $1. For $3 and a buy. Need lot's of them to get large turns with this.

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If your deck is full of crap, Oasis can be good, but I don't think this is the best scenario.  Yes, you can discard crap, but you may also draw crap. 
A silver and a crap card gives an average of $1/card. An Oasis that finds a crap card replaces itself and gives $1. The variance speaks for the Silver, the cycling speaks for the Oasis, the probability that you might draw it without crap speaks for the Silver.

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If it's more of a BM-leaning game, silver might be preferable.
QFT
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2012, 11:07:06 am »
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Oasis is a lot of fun to play with menagerie and library.
Interesting with tunnel, too (but it needs some support).
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Teproc

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2012, 12:08:23 pm »
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What's interesting to me is that my bottom 14 are exactly the same, but the only one I have ranked similarly to this list is Lookout.

Most notably, I have Shanty Town and Black Market much lower than that, 5 ranks below for both. Black Market is obviously extremely variable, but Shanty Town... meh, it's just always so underwhelming. I mean, it's fine in a deck full of cantrips, but you rarely want more than one and... yeah, I don't know, I just don't like the card. It doesn't really do anything, which people might say about another card that I had 4 ranks higher than this list : Great Hall. See, I think Great Hall does a bunch of things, with its interactions with Hoard, Ironworks, Silk Road, and I also think that it's an interesting card just because of the "Beyond Silver" thing. Recognizing when you cant Great Hall over Silver is interesting to me, in a way Shanty Town just never is.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2012, 12:14:33 pm »
+5

I'll hold off on posting my full rankings until we see the rest of the $3s, but a few comments for now.  Suffice to say I disagree with this list much much more.

Smugglers, Loan, and Black Market are IMO egregiously misranked.  Loan is a lot better: obviously it is not good at all in BM, but non-terminal trashing is really really nice in any engine that can get cash from Actions.  Not just Minion decks: Goons, Conspirator, the whole Peddler family, Tac/Vault, the list goes on.  And even some money decks can benefit from the copper trashing: Tunnels and Venture come to mind here.  It is possible that I overrated it a spot or two at #12, but really I don't think #18 is fair at all.

Black Market and Smugglers, on the other hand, deserve to be far lower.  Everybody remembers the games where Black Market gets you game-breaking cards early on, but nobody remembers all the times you draw nothing special over and over again. Even good players (myself included) fall into the Black Market trap way too often.  I don't think the card is as bad as its CR stats would indicate (said stats think Black Market is Pirate Ship-level awful), and I actually happen to be pretty good at Black Market games, since the card works best as a facilitator of Cornucopia-style unfocused engines, but I do think it's overrated.

Smugglers I had as the worst $3.  My opinion of it has actually gone up since the last list- primarily because I've gained more appreciation of its use in Gardens and Vineyards games- but my opinion of Develop went up more.  I hate the lack of control Smugglers gives you, I'd rather buy good cards on my own terms- and a terminal that can often get you NOTHING (if, say, your opponent did things like trash, buy Potion card, or buy Province) is going to be pretty bad at doing that.

Lesser (but still stark) disagreements: Fortune Teller is not that bad, peoples.  Shanty Town should not be nearly this low, especially as we haven't seen Village yet (which looks to be overrated by just a bit).  I did have it lower than Village, but only by two slots.  A lot of people must be underestimating its pseudo-Lab ability, which is understandable as I used to, too.

More to come, especially after we see the rest of the list.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2012, 12:23:11 pm »
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+1 Chwhite. He said everything.
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popsofctown

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2012, 12:32:01 pm »
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Chancellor is last? :(

I think it's an underappreciated card, and disagree with the writeup.  Chancellor doesn't ONLY get you recently bought cards sooner.  When the number of good cards already in your deck exceeds the number of good cards you buy in a round, you start to use Chancellor based on whether you've seen your good cards yet already, and get to replay good cards you already have.
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sparky5856

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2012, 12:37:00 pm »
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I wish I could have saved the results from the survey... as I forgot how I ranked the vast majority of the cards X_X I think I was one of the people who ranked Black Market very high though. Of course it's very situational; I don't always go for it but if there's, say, a good Curser in there, I'll try to rush to it.

Also lol who put Shanty Town at #5 XD
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2012, 12:38:49 pm »
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I dunno, I don't play enough with Black Market.
And I believe I often win without buying Smugglers, though I unfortunately can't access my stats on CR. It means gaining cards your opponent gained... up to $6, so if he bought Province/low-cost Peddler, bye bye ! And as said for Workshop : how many "pretty good cards up to $6 you can't choose yourself" do you want ?

But about Develop, I wonder why it is so low :
Okay, it's most often no more than an estate->silver converter, but since the silver gets on your deck and it's still a better opening than Woodcutter (I think !) why a so-bad rank ?
The worst is the fact it's poor at gaining victory cards. (and you need $7 cards or platinums to reach province, okay... maybe should this card belong to Prosperity instead of Hinterlands ?)
Okay, it's the worst trasher in the game, after Possession, but... I don't know ! I think this card could at least been ranked over Woodcutter, Workshop and maybe Fortune Teller...

popsofctown : I think Chancellor's luck factor and lack of relevance punished it ! Buy only one ? How would it be place in your deck. Buy several of'em ? Yes, but the benefit is not that great, and... they are terminals.
If you've a good engine, you can wait to discard your deck "naturally", with redrawing...

sparky5859 : Not me !!! (In fact, I dont even know if my vote has been taken into account as I didn't finish rank the cards...)
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2012, 12:44:17 pm »
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Wow. I had Smugglers 8 places better. I had Loan 4 places better. I had Black Market 5 places worse. Some pretty stark differences.

It's possible I underrate Black Market because I hate it so much. But I also hate Smugglers, so I don't think I'm overrating it.

Loan isn't that bad. It's better than Trade Route, Wishing Well, and Black Market, that's for sure.
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popsofctown

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2012, 12:49:38 pm »
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Chocophile Benj, I didn't understand you exactly, but, outside of Chancellor Stash you only ever want one.  I think of it as being 3.1$, because if you have no other way to use your terminal action point besides the likes of Fortune Teller or Woodcutter or Navigator, it's ability to improve your draws slightly means more money for your deck.  In a race to a high cost card that's non terminal itself, that's invaluable - say Hunting Party stacking or Grand Market.  If the high cost card is terminal, if it's powerful enough it could possibly still be worth it to use Chancellor to race there - Goons, no-trash cursers, Forge (just reforge your Chancellor).

I definitely think it is more powerful than Fortune Teller.  Woodcutter is kind of apples and oranges to me because it's a Fool's Gold enabler and otherwise a card you pick up late for an engine that only has +buy available from Woodcutter.  But Fortune Teller is a card that cycles your opponent's deck! I can't quite get it. 
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $3 cards
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2012, 12:55:50 pm »
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Chocophile Benj, I didn't understand you exactly, but, outside of Chancellor Stash you only ever want one.  I think of it as being 3.1$, because if you have no other way to use your terminal action point besides the likes of Fortune Teller or Woodcutter or Navigator, it's ability to improve your draws slightly means more money for your deck.  In a race to a high cost card that's non terminal itself, that's invaluable - say Hunting Party stacking or Grand Market.  If the high cost card is terminal, if it's powerful enough it could possibly still be worth it to use Chancellor to race there - Goons, no-trash cursers, Forge (just reforge your Chancellor).

I definitely think it is more powerful than Fortune Teller.  Woodcutter is kind of apples and oranges to me because it's a Fool's Gold enabler and otherwise a card you pick up late for an engine that only has +buy available from Woodcutter.  But Fortune Teller is a card that cycles your opponent's deck! I can't quite get it. 

Fortune Teller is a card that Rabbles your opponents' deck.  It's therefore best in the late game, though sometimes an early Fortune Teller can force them to miss their opening buys as well.
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