Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10  All

Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards  (Read 36759 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

weety4

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 139
  • Respect: +49
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #175 on: January 09, 2017, 03:52:26 pm »
0

This highlights how Village and Throne Room operate differently. However, the goal of a splitter is to help you play your terminals, not increase the Action counter by 2 or more. Functionally, both Village and Throne Room help accomplish the goal of letting you play all your terminals. Succeeding in that, it doesn't matter if you ever increase the Action counter.
And the goal of the game is to have the most VPs at the end of the game. Doesn't mean that Goons and Province are identical cards though.

As I already said, I don't deny that villages and pseudo-villages are good for engines. Doesn't mean that they play identically though which is the nonsense everybody here is responding to.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11312
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +12080
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #176 on: January 09, 2017, 04:02:52 pm »
+1

As I already said, I don't deny that villages and pseudo-villages are good for engines. Doesn't mean that they play identically though which is the nonsense everybody here is responding to.

Actually the goal of the game is to end the game at a time when you have the most VPs.

I'm not saying that Throne Room and Village play identically, but are you saying that Madman and Nobles play more identically than Throne Room and Village?

I'm serious about the cage match by the way.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

weety4

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 139
  • Respect: +49
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #177 on: January 09, 2017, 04:27:59 pm »
0

As I already said, I don't deny that villages and pseudo-villages are good for engines. Doesn't mean that they play identically though which is the nonsense everybody here is responding to.
I'm not saying that Throne Room and Village play identically

Nope:

But the categorization into "villages" and "pseudo-villages" is arbitrary.

No, it's not.  There's clearly a distinction between a card that gives "+X Actions" and a card that lets you play the same card multiple times.  They may fill a similar role sometimes, but they operate differently.  Throne Room only "splits" if you either hit another Throne Room or a non-terminal.  A village always "splits".

They fill the exact same role every time and that's what matters.

Of course we all know that you will know write more intentionally unclear stuff to avoid admitting that you have been totally wrong.


Are you saying that Madman and Nobles play more identically than Throne Room and Village?
Madman, Nobles and Village all provide 2 Actions which is why there are villages.
Throne Room conditionally provides 2 or more Actions which is why it is a pseudo-village.
This is a fact which you denied.

About how they play, all cards differ from each other significantly and thus play very differently.

Any other deflection attempts Mr. TR is a "splitter" and all "splitters" are the same? Because I will now put you on ignore lest I have to tolerate more of this nonsense.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11312
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +12080
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #178 on: January 09, 2017, 04:38:12 pm »
+1

As I already said, I don't deny that villages and pseudo-villages are good for engines. Doesn't mean that they play identically though which is the nonsense everybody here is responding to.
I'm not saying that Throne Room and Village play identically

Nope:

But the categorization into "villages" and "pseudo-villages" is arbitrary.

No, it's not.  There's clearly a distinction between a card that gives "+X Actions" and a card that lets you play the same card multiple times.  They may fill a similar role sometimes, but they operate differently.  Throne Room only "splits" if you either hit another Throne Room or a non-terminal.  A village always "splits".

They fill the exact same role every time and that's what matters.

Of course we all know that you will know write more intentionally unclear stuff to avoid admitting that you have been totally wrong.

Filling the same role and playing identically are not the same thing. You can't construct a strawman argument and blame it on me.

About how they play, all cards differ from each other significantly and thus play very differently.

And that's why categorizing the splitters into "villages" and "pseudo-villages" is arbitrary.

You're obviously free to put me on your ignore list, but I suppose that might make it more difficult for us to arrange that cage match. If you're willing to stand by your implied assessment that you're less ignorant about the basics of Dominion than I am, I don't really see why you wouldn't take me up on that offer it's not like there's anything to fear, right?
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

TheOthin

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 459
  • Shuffle iT Username: TheOthin
  • Respect: +445
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #179 on: January 09, 2017, 04:52:15 pm »
+1

I don't agree that Throne Room being a village/splitter is any more conditional than Necropolis. Both are similarly useless if they do not pair up with another Action card.

Throne Room operates differently than your typical village through. It can be seen as equivalent to "+2 Actions, choose a card, autoplay the chosen card twice (each play costs an action)". Less flexible, but let's you play more Action card effects than you have in your deck. At the end of the day, you can use Throne Rooms to play arbitrarily many terminals, just like any card giving +2 Actions explicitly.

It's perhaps fair to call Throne Room, Herald, Royal Carriage etc. "Pseudo villages" just because they do not behave like vanilla cards that provide +2 Actions. Consider Tactician, the card I think is most deserving of the classification as a "pseudo-village". It requires a crazy chain to get arbitrarily many next-turn effects to activate.

If you have Necropolis in your hand alongside Smithy or some other terminal draw, you can draw from the Smithy and still have an action left over to continue playing things. Throne Room can't do that on its own: you need another non-terminal to get that result.
Logged

weety4

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 139
  • Respect: +49
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #180 on: January 09, 2017, 05:03:53 pm »
0

You're obviously free to put me on your ignore list, but I suppose that might make it more difficult for us to arrange that cage match. If you're willing to stand by your implied assessment that you're less ignorant about the basics of Dominion than I am, I don't really see why you wouldn't take me up on that offer it's not like there's anything to fear, right?
You really are an obnoxious troll, aren't you?
Just because you spend your entire free time playing Dominion online (instead of with real people but that runs into the issue of having to actually be a nice guy such that they tolerate you) and probably are good at playing the game doesn't mean that your writing about the game is any good or even just factually true.
You could defeat me a dozen times; Throne Room would still not unconditionally provide 2 Actions.
Not that it will ever happen, boardgaming time is friend time and not troll time for me. 8)
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3837
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2408
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #181 on: January 09, 2017, 05:09:39 pm »
+1

I don't agree that Throne Room being a village/splitter is any more conditional than Necropolis. Both are similarly useless if they do not pair up with another Action card.

Throne Room operates differently than your typical village through. It can be seen as equivalent to "+2 Actions, choose a card, autoplay the chosen card twice (each play costs an action)". Less flexible, but let's you play more Action card effects than you have in your deck. At the end of the day, you can use Throne Rooms to play arbitrarily many terminals, just like any card giving +2 Actions explicitly.

It's perhaps fair to call Throne Room, Herald, Royal Carriage etc. "Pseudo villages" just because they do not behave like vanilla cards that provide +2 Actions. Consider Tactician, the card I think is most deserving of the classification as a "pseudo-village". It requires a crazy chain to get arbitrarily many next-turn effects to activate.

If you have Necropolis in your hand alongside Smithy or some other terminal draw, you can draw from the Smithy and still have an action left over to continue playing things. Throne Room can't do that on its own: you need another non-terminal to get that result.

That's right. This is kind of what I wanted to convey when I interpreted TR as "+2 Actions, choose a card, autoplay the chosen card twice (each play costs an action)". You can't play stuff in between the doubled up Action card. This makes TR troublesome when trying to use it as the only splitter/village when there are no non-terminals. Many of the support cards that help line up TR-TR-draw are non-terminal to begin with, which goes against the spirit of the "Marin" engine. You need the right terminals, strong trashing, possibly gainers, maybe some events, and finesse to get it working.

Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11312
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +12080
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #182 on: January 09, 2017, 05:52:11 pm »
+2

You're obviously free to put me on your ignore list, but I suppose that might make it more difficult for us to arrange that cage match. If you're willing to stand by your implied assessment that you're less ignorant about the basics of Dominion than I am, I don't really see why you wouldn't take me up on that offer it's not like there's anything to fear, right?
You really are an obnoxious troll, aren't you?
Just because you spend your entire free time playing Dominion online (instead of with real people but that runs into the issue of having to actually be a nice guy such that they tolerate you) and probably are good at playing the game doesn't mean that your writing about the game is any good or even just factually true.
You could defeat me a dozen times; Throne Room would still not unconditionally provide 2 Actions.
Not that it will ever happen, boardgaming time is friend time and not troll time for me. 8)

No, I really am not an obnoxious troll. Just as a quick reminder, out of us two, I'm the one who

  • Never attacked an argument you didn't actually make
  • Never responded only to a single paragraph/sentence from a post while ignoring the valid arguments in the rest of the post
  • Never attacked your writing style as opposed to your arguments
  • Never attacked you as a person as opposed to your arguments
  • Never turned down a suggested method of trying out the different hypotheses in practice

For the record, the idea that someone would refuse to play Dominion with me because they wouldn't tolerate me is completely foreign to me; even if they refuse to play Dominion, they usually suggest another game or another activity instead. I wonder what inspired you to come up with such an idea.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

LibraryAdventurer

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1308
  • Shuffle iT Username: LibraryAdventurer
  • Respect: +1005
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #183 on: January 09, 2017, 09:46:54 pm »
+2

dead horse is dead

madeofghosts

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 58
  • Respect: +98
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #184 on: January 10, 2017, 05:53:12 am »
+1

If you think about it, Copper and Province are basically identical.
Logged

faust

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2631
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3686
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #185 on: January 10, 2017, 06:49:21 am »
0

You're obviously free to put me on your ignore list, but I suppose that might make it more difficult for us to arrange that cage match. If you're willing to stand by your implied assessment that you're less ignorant about the basics of Dominion than I am, I don't really see why you wouldn't take me up on that offer it's not like there's anything to fear, right?
You really are an obnoxious troll, aren't you?
Just because you spend your entire free time playing Dominion online (instead of with real people but that runs into the issue of having to actually be a nice guy such that they tolerate you) and probably are good at playing the game doesn't mean that your writing about the game is any good or even just factually true.
You could defeat me a dozen times; Throne Room would still not unconditionally provide 2 Actions.
Not that it will ever happen, boardgaming time is friend time and not troll time for me. 8)
Yeah, I can already tell that you're a real charmer.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4075
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #186 on: January 10, 2017, 10:21:35 am »
+2

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8171
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9575
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #187 on: January 10, 2017, 10:39:31 am »
+1

I was certain Villa would be in this list.  I mean, it's good, but top 10 good?  If any Empires card should have been in the top 10 for this list, it should have been Sacrifice.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6476
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7849
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #188 on: January 10, 2017, 10:45:43 am »
+3

I'm surprised Young Witch snuck ahead Sea Hag. 
Logged

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 622
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1426
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #189 on: January 10, 2017, 11:17:57 am »
+1

I was certain Villa would be in this list.  I mean, it's good, but top 10 good?  If any Empires card should have been in the top 10 for this list, it should have been Sacrifice.

I strongly disagree; Sacrifice was properly ranked, IMO.  Temple and Villa are both stronger than Sacrifice.

I didn't rank Villa in the top ten, but it's competitive with ranks 7-10, IMO.  On some boards, Villa is worse than Village, but on some boards it is completely game-warping (draw-to-X).  And on most boards, it's flexibility over Village is a substantial advantage.  And on other boards, it's the only +buy, and a decent one at that.

I believe Temple is a little underrated here.  Getting 3 double-trash turns with 3 VP is a low bar for this card.  Temple is a good defense against junkers (you can trash Curses while trashing Copper).  Temple is also a source of VP chips on gain.  And you can trash duplicate Temples with your first Temple, so the cost is minor.  I don't think the top ten $4 cards list is so stacked that Temple can't find a place, but... time will tell.

Sea Hag and Young Witch... yeah, they're still strong cards.  This is probably around the right place for them.  I think Sea Hag is stronger.  With second edition cards, there are fewer terrible bane cards.  Sea Hag is dominating when there is no way to trash Curses.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3837
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2408
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #190 on: January 10, 2017, 12:02:42 pm »
+1

Something I noticed with Villa when playing with it for the first time is that it can also act like non-drawing Border Village. With $6 you can buy it, then get a $3 cost card when returning to the buy phase. With $8, you can get Villa with a $5 cost card.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11312
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +12080
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #191 on: January 10, 2017, 12:39:52 pm »
+1

I'm also happy to see Young Witch ahead of Sea Hag. With most Banes, Young Witch might fail sometimes but ultimately it gets the job done just as much as Sea Hag, it just takes more plays. With the cycling and sifting, YW helps your current turn as well as your overall cycling speed enough that it might even be faster to play a Young Witch 7 or so times than a Sea Hag 5 times, not to mention it's not awful to buy multiple Young Witches.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2718
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3398
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #192 on: January 10, 2017, 01:14:59 pm »
+1

I was certain Villa would be in this list.  I mean, it's good, but top 10 good?  If any Empires card should have been in the top 10 for this list, it should have been Sacrifice.

I had Villa as #2, and I now think it should have been #1. No card changes the game more dramatically at this cost point than Villa, and it is a tremendous advantage to use it properly.

Sacrifice is pretty good, but it's not really even remotely as dominant or game warping as Villa. It's an average trasher with a neat Hail Mary play most of the time.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them

McGarnacle

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1090
  • Shuffle iT Username: McGarnacle
  • So, ya like doughnuts, eh?
  • Respect: +641
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #193 on: January 10, 2017, 01:28:40 pm »
0

I was certain Villa would be in this list.  I mean, it's good, but top 10 good?  If any Empires card should have been in the top 10 for this list, it should have been Sacrifice.

I had Villa as #2, and I now think it should have been #1. No card changes the game more dramatically at this cost point than Villa, and it is a tremendous advantage to use it properly.

Sacrifice is pretty good, but it's not really even remotely as dominant or game warping as Villa. It's an average trasher with a neat Hail Mary play most of the time.

Is it me, or is Empires really power-creepy?
Logged
This is exactly the kind of deep analysis I come to f.ds for. 

Forum Mafia Record
Town 1/2 50%
Scum 0/0

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2448
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #194 on: January 10, 2017, 01:48:01 pm »
0

I would say Adventures was really power creepy
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11312
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +12080
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #195 on: January 10, 2017, 01:51:26 pm »
+5

Base set was pretty power creepy. You couldn't even build an engine before the base set!
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

trivialknot

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 697
  • Respect: +1069
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #196 on: January 10, 2017, 02:14:38 pm »
+1

Villa is pretty powerful, but in many cases it's just a village with low opportunity cost.  You might draw some actions dead, and save your turn by buying a Villa, but it still cost $3 to do that so your turn is still somewhat less than amazing.  The only thing that made the turn amazing was that you got an extra Villa, roughly for free.  Late in the game, saving a dud turn can be worth much more than $3, but by this time the Villas may have already piled, or perhaps you have so many Villas that the dud turn is missing draw rather than actions.

I rated Port higher than Villa.  Port is #2 for me.
Logged

trivialknot

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 697
  • Respect: +1069
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #197 on: January 10, 2017, 02:22:16 pm »
+1

As far as power creep goes, the strongest set by Qvist rankings is clearly Cornucopia.

Although, personally, I think Adventures is one of the strongest sets.
Logged

McGarnacle

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1090
  • Shuffle iT Username: McGarnacle
  • So, ya like doughnuts, eh?
  • Respect: +641
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #198 on: January 10, 2017, 02:24:21 pm »
0

I would say Adventures was really power creepy

I didn't feel that way about Adventures. Whereas Empires has Legionary, Farmer's Market, Fortune, etc.
Logged
This is exactly the kind of deep analysis I come to f.ds for. 

Forum Mafia Record
Town 1/2 50%
Scum 0/0

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3837
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2408
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $4 Cards
« Reply #199 on: January 10, 2017, 02:43:00 pm »
+1

As far as power creep goes, the strongest set by Qvist rankings is clearly Cornucopia.

Although, personally, I think Adventures is one of the strongest sets.

Well like, Adventures has both Page and Peasant now hanging out close to Chapel in the best $2 rankings. Adventures I feel has more game warping cards even if on average it is not the strongest set.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10  All
 

Page created in 0.097 seconds with 21 queries.