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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: $6 cards  (Read 17711 times)

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Qvist

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The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.1: $6 cards
« on: February 06, 2012, 09:00:17 am »
+2

The Best $6+ Cards
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#14 Adventurer (Base) Weighted Average: 13.81 / Median: 14 / Mode: 14 / Standard Deviation: 0.6
Highest Rank(s): #12 (2x), #13 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #14 (26x)

A nearly "perfect" score for the Adventurer. Only 4 times it wasn't voted last with the best rank being third last.

By all means Adventurer is no bad card. But all $6+ cards have the problem competing with Gold. And Adventurer is only superior to Gold in decks without Copper and even $5 cards like Harvest or Merchant Ship (can) give you $4 easily. The filter effect is nice and finds still 2 treasure cards if you are already heavily greening what is especially good with Platinum. But the same does Venture (you see the name sililarity?) without spending an action and for one coin less. So, most of the time, Adventurer is just overpriced, but can be nice in a chapelled deck with no better alternatives.
#13 Farmland (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 11.47 / Median: 12 / Mode: 13 / Standard Deviation: 1.8
Highest Rank(s): #6 (1x), #8 (1x), #9 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #13 (11x)

One third voted it second last, but it still got four votes above #10.

Farmland is definitely no power card, but still should be considered as a good buy in a handful of situations. At first it seems weak as it is more expensive and gives less VP than a Duchy. But the on-buy remodel effect can be very handy. You really have to calculate the benefits. If you have $7, you can remodel a Copper into an Estate, but then it would be better to buy a Duchy for the same VP. For $8 you could buy a Province directly, but if you're behind and there are only few Provinces left, just remodel a Silver into a Duchy for 5VP. For $9 Farmland is like an extra buy, if you remodel a Gold into a Province for 8VP total. In the middle game you even may prefer Farmland over Duchy, because with a Farmland in hand you only need $6 and a Farmland in hand to get a Province. Especially nice is Farmland in cursing games. For $6 and a Curse in hand, Farmland is worth 4VP. There are even more nice situations like getting 2 victory cards in Silk Road games or trashing a Potion to get a Gold.
#12 Fairgrounds (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 9.93 / Median: 10 / Mode: 10 / Standard Deviation: 2.2
Highest Rank(s): #6 (2x), #7 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #13 (4x), #14 (1x)

The places #9-#12 were really close. Fairgrounds was 7 times on #10 and 12 times above #10.

Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province and Fairgrounds and you have already 7 different cards. With 3 more cards, every Fairgrounds is already worth more than a Duchy. Especially in cursing and Potion games, this is easy to accomplish. This is still making it a mediocre card. But in games where you have many cantrips and a good source of buy, Fairgrounds can be really strong. Just buy 15 of the 19 different cards and every Fairgrounds is worth 6VP like a Province and this for $2 less. And with Black Market on the board it is even easier to get 15 or even 20 different cards and may be the board determining combo.
#11 Harem (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 9.82 / Median: 10 / Mode: 10 / Standard Deviation: 2.3
Highest Rank(s): #6 (2x), #7 (5x) / Lowest Rank(s): #13 (4x), #14 (1x)

Harem has a lead of 0.11 points and is the third victory card in a row. And no, the stats are no copy&paste error. It has almost the same stats as Fairgrounds. It was 6 times on #10 and 14 times above #10.

$6+ Victory cards obviously have done poorly in this list. Like all cards in this list, Harem is by far no bad card, but it's another card that's not really game dominating. Especially in Big Money games where you rarely need more than 1-2 Golds you can pick easily pick up Harems in the mid-game if you still fall short for Provinces. This gives you -1VP in comparism to Duchies, but you will see this Harem still 2-3 times to make it worth a buy and give you enough money to win the Provinces split or make the 2VP difference to win this game. Harem is also good in Silk Road games and in combination with Hoard (don't buy Gold, just buy a Hoard and Harems), Mine (mine early Silvers into Harems) and Mints (extra money and VP is nice). In Colony games, Harem is really ignorable because neither Silver nor 2VP are worth a buy.
#10 Forge (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 9.30 / Median: 9 / Mode: 12 / Standard Deviation: 2.7
Highest Rank(s): #4 (1x), #5 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #13 (3x)

Forge is one of the cards in this list with the highest deviation. It was 7 times on #12.

Forge is really hard to evaluate because it heavily depends from the cards on the board. Forge is like a much better Chapel because you can quickly trash many cards out of your deck and get an additional benefit, but has 3 big drawbacks. 1.) It's too expensive. If you get to $7 you mostly can't heavily trash anymore because you have too many cards in hand you want to keep. But with cards on the board that can give you $7 early like Baron, Apothecary or Tactician, Forge is really strong. 2.) Forge needs big hand sizes to be really worth it (comparing to other trash-for-benefit cards). Cards like Apothecary or Tactician accomplish this too, but if you have good draw engines, a Forge may also worth a buy to trash a few cards for a late Province. But with discarding attacks Forge is weak. 3.) The term "exactly" and the obligatory gain makes Forge swingy. With a Forge in hand heavy calculating goes on. If you just want to get rid of cards like Coppers or Estates you often have to gain at least a Copper or an Estate or another card you basically don't want. Only if you manage to reach $10 where no card exists you get rid of those. And if you want to forge a Province you often draw the wrong cards (e.g. only treasure cards). Summary: You have to really consider if Forge is a trap or worth a buy, like in Torturer engines where you can simply take all Curses in hand to forge them right away.
#9 Expand (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 9.06 / Median: 8.5 / Mode: 11 / Standard Deviation: 2.6
Highest Rank(s): #4 (1x), #5 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #12 (1x), #13 (1x), #14 (1x)

It was a close call between the trash-for-benefit cards. Expand has only a lead of 0.24 points. It was #11 6 times.

Expand is a mix between Remodel and Mine, but is another card that has drawback of being too expensive. So if you want to trash treasure cards in the late game for victory cards, Remodel manages that too for $3 less. If you want trash treasure cards for better treasure cards, Mine does it even better for $2 less. Its best use is to trash victory cards for better ones. This is especially nice in Colony games. With 2 Expands you can start greening earlier and even buy Provinces to expand them later into Colonies for a benefit of 4VP. And if you have a good drawing engine this works even better. You only need one copy to expand a card into a (better) victory card each turn. And expanding Peddlers into Colonies may be its strongest combo.
#8 Nobles (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 8.26 / Median: 9 / Mode: 11 / Standard Deviation: 3.2
Highest Rank(s): #3 (1x), #4 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #13 (2x), #14 (1x)

Nobles has the by far highest deviation in this list with a range from third to last. It was #11 5 times. Nobles is behind Expand in the unweighted ranking.

I like to call Nobles another trap card what the high deviation shows me too. Yes, Nobles is a self working combo when you use it for +2 Actions and +3 Cards alternating. But 2 Nobles still give you only a +1 Card Bonus what one Laboratory gives you too. So a Big Money player is going to outrace a "Nobles-Engine" player, it's just to slow. You should rather see it as a Village or a Smity with two extra VP just how you need it. Playing Big Money with Nobles instead of Smithy is nice, you just need to get to $6 early. And if you fall short for another Province you can easily buy another Nobles because two Nobles don't collide, you only can draw them dead. Still it is in direct competition with Gold. But after 1-2 Golds you can often easily switch to Nobles. However, in Colony games the 2VP from Nobles are ignorable. Only buy it in those games if you really really need the +2 Actions or the Smithy effect.
#7 Bank (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 7.84 / Median: 7 / Mode: 7 / Standard Deviation: 2.7
Highest Rank(s): #3 (2x), #4 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #11 (3x), #13 (1x)

Bank is another card with high deviation. It was #7 5 times and only 4 times below #10.

Bank's value really depends from the board. That may be the reason of the deviation. Bank is dependant from big hand sizes and +Buy. On an average board, especially Big Money games, Bank is mostly worse than Gold. While 3 Golds allow you to buy a Province, 3 Banks don't. So it can really be a trap card. But with a drawer it can be also better than Gold (e.g. 4 Copper + Bank instead of 4 Copper + Gold). And with the addition of +Buy it can get incredibly powerful. Margrave/Wharf Big Money with Bank is great. And in combination with Tactician or Apothecary+Herbalist(or another +Buy) Bank is really powerful. In Colony games Platinum is still stronger in almost every situation, but still Bank is no bad card in Colony games and just depends of above mentioned scenarios.
#6 Peddler (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 6.57 / Median: 6 / Mode: 5 / Standard Deviation: 2.7
Highest Rank(s): #4 (6x) / Lowest Rank(s): #11 (2x), #12 (1x), #13 (1x)

The ranks #4-#6 were really close. Peddler has high deviation and loses this fight for #4. It was #5 6 times and 4 times below #10.

Peddler basically don't belongs in this list as its effect is only worth $4. So if you spend $6 or $8 for a Peddler, this was mostly a waste. But in games with many +Buys like Grand Markets, Worker's Villages or Hamlets, you can easily pick up Peddlers for $0 or $2. Peddlers are also good in combination with duration cards as they count for price reduction in both turns. But it is in this list and it is so high in this list because it really shines in combination with trash-for-benefit cards and then its cost shows to advantage, e.g. - like above mentioned - expanding it into a Colony. As it is the only card for $8, its also worth mentioning how it works with Swindler. As long as there are still Peddlers left, there is the danger that it get swindled. But when the Peddlers are gone, you have a great defense against Swindler. Another quick note: Beware of three-piling in Peddler games with +Buy.
#5 Border Village (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 6.41 / Median: 6 / Mode: 5 / Standard Deviation: 2.0
Highest Rank(s): #3 (1x), #4 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #9 (4x), #10 (1x), #11 (1x)

It was close, but Border Village is in the Top 5 with a 0.16 lead over Peddler. Nearly a third voted it exactly there, it was #5 9 times.

For every good engine Border Village is great. Especially if you have $6 and there are strong terminal $5 cards on the board and you want the $5 card anyway, you get a Village for free. Do this a few times and you basically are guaranteed to have a Village in each hand. The uses are similar to when you want many Fishing Villages. Border Village + Torturer is maybe the strongest combo. Still this is in strong competition with Gold. It's really a trap in cases where you want a Big Money-like strategy. Especially with the first $6 you often rather buy a Gold than a Border Village in most cases. Border Village also very good on boards with trash-for-benefit cards because for every $6 you have you can buy a Border Village and the trash-for-benefit card. Later you can trash the Border Village for 4VP with Bishop, 6 cards with Apprentice, 6$ with Salvager or remodel it into a Province, etc. And in Gardens games Border Village is just another extra card for you.
#4 Hoard (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 6.16 / Median: 5 / Mode: 4 / Standard Deviation: 2.6
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #3 (1x), #4 (10x) / Lowest Rank(s): #11 (2x), #12 (1x)

Hoard wins the battle for #4 very closely. Its 10 4th places still shows it deserves the spot.

Hoard is really good if you play it right. If you use it to buy a Victory card every time you have it in hand, just to get a Gold, this is maybe not the right play because then your money average approximates to ~1.5$ what isn't enough for a Province and is even worse in Colony games. But it's great if you want go green anyway. Your deck doesn't clog up too much and you may keep buying Provinces or at least Duchies until the end of the game. So if you pick up a Hoard after your first Gold in Big Money games you can go green pretty early. Hoard is also good if you use the free Gold for trash-for-benefit cards, especially Apprentice. Just trash a Gold with Apprentice, buy a Province with a Hoard in hand to get another Gold and do the same in the next turns over and over. Hoard works also nice with dual-type victory cards especially Harem and maybe Great Hall. With Nobles it really depends if you not rather buy directly that Gold.
#3 Goons (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 2.49 / Median: 2.5 / Mode: 3 / Standard Deviation: 1.3
Highest Rank(s): #1 (6x) / Lowest Rank(s): #4 (2x), #5 (1x), #7 (1x)

This is huge gap: ~3.7 points. So the battle for #1 was another close call. I was really curious who would win. Goons now is only #3 where it was voted 11 times.

Goons is a strong and board dominating card nearly every time. Yes, it gets quadratically (n^2+n) better the more Goons you can play per turn, so it gets big profit from good drawing engines, but is still great if played alone because of the discarding attack. It's also the only attack card that is so strong that it needs to cost more than $5. So you have a Militia that nets you VP for cards you would have bought either way, great! In the later game you can pick additional VP for Coppers (and with a Watchtower in hand you can even immediately trash them). And if you have that needed actions and set up a really nice engine with Goons and manage to play 3 or more Goons per turn, it is so insane powerful: You can achieve easily 100 or more points. Also a Goons engine has more time for setup as you don't necessarily need to buy Provinces/Colonies. Beside Watchtower, Inn+Goons is also a good combo  for a turn with at least 2-3 Goons. For clarification: King's Court + Goons doesn't triple the VP gaining effect, but you still get the extra money and buys you can use for more VP, so it isn't a so bad combo after all (especially if you have another King's Court and a Masquerade in hand ;) )
#2 Grand Market (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 2.15 / Median: 2 / Mode: 2 / Standard Deviation: 0.8
Highest Rank(s): #1 (8x) / Lowest Rank(s): #3 (8x), #4 (1x)

Grand Market was 13 times second. So it's no surprise that this its final rank. The consensus was really high, only one player ranked it on #4.

Grand Market is basically a $8-$9 card and is the dominating card on many boards. Often it's basically a race to get the first Grand Market faster. And with the first Grand Market you can easily buy more of them. You achieve that at best with Vault or any other Source of virtual coins like Baron or Horse Traders and of course with Gold. Grand Markets are very powerful, but still there are situations where it's just too slow to pick them up and other strategies are just quicker. They are great in nearly all decks, but Grand Markets really shine in thin decks where you can chain them. Then they are even better than Platinum! The same applies in combination with King's Court. But in Colony games with heavy cursing or other thick decks, Platinum is still the stronger card.
#1 King's Court (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 1.74 / Median: 1 / Mode: 1 / Standard Deviation: 0.9
Highest Rank(s): #1 (16x) / Lowest Rank(s): #3 (6x), #4 (1x)

King's Court is the best $6+ card. No surprise when you see that more than the half of all players voted it there.

Just like Goons and Grand Market, when King's Court is on the board, there's nearly every time a race who gets it first with cards like Tactician, Baron or Apothecary. Throne Room does nothing for itself and just doubles the action, but still is often skippable, but tripling an action seems like no big difference, but it is a huge boost. If you triple a Curser the game is basically over; if you triple a card drawer like Wharf is really crazy; and with Possession or Saboteur it could get really mad. With King's Court you also need no Village, just triple a Cantrip for a huge benefit. And with King's Courting a King's Court it gets even crazier... Maybe only on Province boards that are already very quick without King's Court or have only terminal non-curse-givers you may skip it. PS: For everyone who has the same problems as I, calculating the actions you may play three times: For every King's Court you play on a King's Court you can play 2 more actions three times - or if you prefer a formula: 2n-1

Potion cost cards
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 08:24:57 am by Qvist »
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ackack

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 09:05:19 am »
0

I'm still in the KC > Goons camp, but those guys are definitely right that Goons > GM.

I'd put Fairgrounds above Harem, probably, and I think I like Expand better than Nobles and Bank. Otherwise, seems pretty reasonable.
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DStu

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 09:26:40 am »
0

I'd put Fairgrounds above Harem, probably, and I think I like Expand better than Nobles and Bank. Otherwise, seems pretty reasonable.

I thinik me too, maybe even more. I'm a little bit on an alternative-Victory-card-trip at the moment, so maybe I err a bit to this side, but even 4VPs per card drastically changes the landscape just by their existence, because the engine you have in mind can not easily be beaten by a BigMoney racing to 5 Provinces.
Of course you can have 4VPs cheaper with Gardens/Silk Road and Vineyards, but building an engine you usually already are half way to your 6VPs.

I think I would put it above bank on this list. Getting 4VPs for $6s in the endgame is not uncommon, so in a "standard" game Fairgrounds are not useless, and they give you the time you need to ramp up an engine and by this influences strategies that can or can't handle greening.

And maybe Bank also a bit lower, not sure how much, but definitely below Nobles.
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brokoli

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 09:30:06 am »
0

The 6$+ cards are difficult to rank… there are many victory cards, and different cost… also, cards like Border village and farmland depends heavily on the board or the situation.
And personally, I totally disagree. Fairgrounds, Farmland and Harem are way too low. Expand, peddler and forge are too high. Hoard and bank are probably a little too high…

I think Harems are better than nobles. I mean, you often take a silver instead of smithy, even if the smithy is more expensive.
Expand and Forge are quite good but situationnal (especially forge).
Peddler often is not worth it without any good source of +buy.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 09:32:20 am by brokoli »
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shark_bait

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 09:46:05 am »
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Having +buy is what makes peddler great.  I had it ranked 5th and completely support it being high up on the list.  You can either base a strategy off of peddlers via cantrip spamming and trying acquiring them all or think of it as a free card after purchasing a province with your market (or any other +buy card) in play.  In either case, it is very powerful.  In addition to it's use as a market w/o the plus buy, it's high cost makes it exceptionally great with trash for benefit cards.

EDIT - I agree that without a plus buy it isn't that good, but regardless, for the reasons above I still support it being that high
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WanderingWinder

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 09:53:20 am »
+4

I'm dumbfounded that GM makes number 2. Goons and KC are both very strong, and I can see strong cases for either one. Everything else is at least one class down. GM is generally harder to get than either of the others, and it's nearly always not as strong.

Kahryl

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 10:14:52 am »
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Yeah. GM in my experience is almost a trap card.
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Fabian

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 10:22:09 am »
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"Just like Goons and Grand Market, when King's Court is on the board, there's nearly every time a race who gets it first"

I still think this is really wrong. I don't at all accept that KC on the board means a near-always race for it. But whatevs.

What's even more wrong is ranking Goons as #7 :) I sure hope that wasn't me.

Other than the top card debate, I think Fairgrounds is better than this list reflects, and Harem is a lot worse (if it can be "a lot" worse, fourth from the bottom).
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RisingJaguar

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 10:38:18 am »
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Fairgrounds has to be one of the cards that's underrated here.  Even if its not super imposing, the fact that its easily 4VP makes it useable in a lot of games.  It has to be in the Nobles range (or just short).

Bank has to be overrated here.  It's a very pretty card with potential to be worth $8+.  But it NEEDS a +buy for it to be better than gold here.  Even in like Margrave/Wharf BM, it loses its power as it greens. Then its only substantially better (than gold) in drawing decks.  I don't think its enough to recover being useless/trap card in the other 60-70% of games? 

I guess this goes into the debate of Goons/KC to a lesser degree.  Needs to be considered in every game, not as powerful/can be disregarded at times, more powerful.  Ironically, I choose fairgrounds/KC.

Curious, where does Gold fit in this list? I'm guess 4th.
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 11:08:20 am »
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Yes, Gold would be 4th, I think.
Fairgrounds seems definitely underrated here. Unlike Farmland, Nobles and Harem, Fairgrounds can almost never be a bad buy because it only won't get to 4VP in Big Money+X strategies.
But I think I have to defend Bank. The situations where Bank is worth more than Gold aren't so rare. Well, I have a win rate with Bank 1.48 ± 0.30 and an "Effect with" of 2.31, here just some basic examples:

Bank made the difference with Margrave and KC - like above mentioned
Even without buy Bank is great, like here with Hunting Party
Here Bank is nearly almost worth $4 and so there's no need for Gold to get to $8. It helped me to buy a Province in turn 11 and 14 each time with 2 Coppers, Silver and Bank.
Again without buy in a Colony game in combination with Venture
No need for Platinum here, Banks are mostly worth $4-$5 (oh, I forgot to mention Venture in the Bank article).

This may not be the best example, just the first few I found.
I would still put it below Gold, but Bank is great if you know when to buy it and these cases are not rare
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 03:50:46 am by Qvist »
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rinkworks

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 11:08:24 am »
+2

I think the ranking of Fairgrounds sticks out at me as the single most egregious error of any of these lists.  I get that the order of the top three is something people feel strongly about, but when all is said and done, the right three cards are the top three, even if they aren't in the right order.

But Fairgrounds is ranked third-to-last, when it should be easily above Forge, Expand, Bank, and Harem at minimum, and maybe a couple slots higher still.  In some of the longer lists, a few cards were ranked more than 4-6 places off from where they "obviously" should be, but if you consider how short the $6+ list is, surely Fairgrounds is off by a greater percentage than any other card.

The thing about Fairgrounds is that it's often not hard to make them worth Provinces, in which case they are dramatically cheaper Provinces.  Sometimes they're even worth more than that, due to killer combo potential with Black Market and Tournament, and when they are "only" worth 4 VP, that's still a solid buy.

By contrast, Forge is powerful only if you get it early enough, need the trashing, and have large hand sizes.  And Expand helps you get extra Provinces -- about as often as Fairgrounds ARE extra Provinces.
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DG

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2012, 11:17:40 am »
+3

I'm still surprised that so few people appreciate farmlands as a better card than at least the harem. Smithy+treasure+farmlands simulates stronger than smithy+treasure+harems, and that's even without the simulator buying farmlands to trash gold for provinces.
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brokoli

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2012, 11:20:07 am »
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Yes, fairgrounds are underrated… but… all victory cards are underrated in these lists. Silk road and Duke, especially.

And I don't understand, no one defends harem ? It's far better than gold (and nobles), IMO. If gold is 4th, then Harem would be 3rd ! As theory said :
Quote
Nothing could be further from the truth: in a Province game, the general rule for Harem is to buy it over Gold when you would buy a Province over a Gold.

DG : I agree, in many big money games, I find Farmland very useful.
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timchen

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2012, 11:20:13 am »
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Interesting list. The low ranks for the VP cards are not unexpected, but I would rank them over expand, forge, and nobles probably.

Somehow if I look at my council room %+ data it tells a different story though:
Ordering by %+: KC, Goons, GM, Nobles, BV, Forge, (Platinum and Gold sits here), Peddler, Hoard, Expand, Bank, Farmland, Fairgrounds, Harem, Adventurer.

Ok, I have no idea that Nobles and Harem are so far away. Nobles sits at 89.6% (even higher than mountebank! LOL) yet both effect with and effect without are positive. Effect without is 3.26; probably shows it is still a trap card.

I would have no idea that Forge is higher than gold; but effect with is 2.45 and effect without is -1.18, which probably says that it is indeed a pretty important card. peddler, expand, and bank I probably have bought less than I should. Given I only buy hoard 62.4% the time, I still do horribly when I buy them (-1.81 with 2.00 without).
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DStu

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2012, 11:22:37 am »
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And I don't understand, no one defends harem ? It's far better than gold (and nobles), IMO. If gold is 4th, then Harem would be 3rd ! As theory said :

I think we already had the discussion Harem vs. Nobles when theory put up the best/worst list, and while I was in the Harem-camp at this time, I think I must switch to the Nobles...
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ackack

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2012, 11:49:03 am »
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And Expand helps you get extra Provinces -- about as often as Fairgrounds ARE extra Provinces.

This seems like crazy talk to me, and I'm one of the people who agrees that Fairgrounds are underranked on this list. 6 VP Fairgrounds being a legitimately strong plan (I'm not that interested in desperation plays where it's a low probability gamble to recover) is not exactly rare, but still way less common than Expand boosting Golds or 5s to Provinces in the late game.

Forge is the top of my "Effect With" list at 2.5, for whatever that's worth. Like Outpost, it deserves to be near the bottom of this list because it's very often neglectable . . . but like Outpost, it occasionally kicks mega-ass.
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chwhite

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2012, 11:52:26 am »
+1

Grand Market over Goons ???!?!?!

Wow, that is egregiously wrong.  I mean, okay, Grand Market is only one spot too high and Goons only one spot too low (well maybe two), but there is a huge gulf between KC-Goons and everything else.  Grand Market is much harder to buy, and does much less for you when you have it.  Goons is never a trap card, KC is sometimes but only very rarely, Grand Market is commonly a trap card, one that I've fallen into enough to know by now.

The rest of the list is mostly okay.  Not perfect: Fairgrounds deserves to be higher than Harem at least, I'd probably swap Nobles and Bank, and I'd swap Peddler/Border Village as well.  Actually come to think of it I'd probably put Farmland over Harem too: I'll buy Harem sometimes instead of Gold or Duchy if the timing's right, but it just almost never makes much of a difference.  But those are minor complaints.
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Robz888

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2012, 12:26:55 pm »
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For starters, I would bump Fairground ahead of Harem, Nobles ahead of Bank, and Goons ahead of Grand Market.

If I were pressed to make additional changes, I might put Nobles ahead of Peddler. You'll never buy Peddlers without +buys (well, almost never), whereas Nobles makes for a strong addition to more decks, since it can serve as part of Smithy + Big Money, or an Action chain.

And I can see the argument that Fairgrounds should be ahead of Forge. Ahead of Expand, I'm not so sure.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2012, 01:07:13 pm »
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But I think I have to defend Bank. The situations where Bank is worth more than Gold aren't so rare. Well, I have a win rate with Bank 1.48 ± 0.30 and an "Effect with" of 2.31, here just some basic examples:

Bank made the difference with Margrave and KC - like above mentioned
Even without buy Bank is great, like here with Hunting Party
Here Bank is nearly almost worth $4 and so there's no need for Gold to get to $8. It helped me to buy a Province in turn 11 and 14 each time with 2 Coppers, Silver and Bank.
Again without buy in a Colony game in combination with Venture
No need for Platinum here, Banks are mostly worth $4-$5 (oh, I forgot to mention Venture in the Bank article).

This may not be the best example, just the first few I found.
I would still put it below Gold, but Bank is great if you know when to buy it and these cases are not rare

I didn't make myself perfectly clear, it is a wonderful card that can be great and amazing in select kingdoms.  However its downsides are that when its good without +buy, gold usually gets you enough to provinces (I did forget colonies).  The only situation it is better is 3 copper+bank, 2copper+silver+bank, 4copper+bank.  These situations might occur early on before you green, then it could be worth less than gold.  This becomes a problem when your money sources are non-treasures, like terminals and cantrips.  $2 terminal + cantrip $1 + silver + bank = $7, that doesn't seem less common than situation above. 

I understand it has better abilities in drawing decks with +buys and/or colonies.  It even provides upgrade/remake abilities or ventures possibility.  BUT every kingdom Bank is in, Gold is in. In the majority of games, Bank isn't better than gold in enough situations.  To me, that makes it really weak in those situations. 

This is where I differ, its a game changer in like 15% of its boards (wharf engines essentially), but for a card to be (almost) equivalent to a $1 cheaper version in 50% of games, I can't rate that better than Nobles/fairgrounds/ and probably Expand/forge.

FWIW, I have positive effects with/without (.38/1.14) for bank.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2012, 05:06:49 pm »
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The situation at the top has been discussed to death, so I'll refrain from talking about that other than saying Goons>KC>GM.

The biggest error on the list is definitely fairgrounds being so low. I have it at #8 -- below the current top 6 and nobles. Most of the time it's 4 VP, and sometimes it can completely change the game by acting like a $6 province. Being able to get it to 6 VP is probably at least as common as having any of the $7s besides KC be noticeably more useful than gold in non-colony games.

I think Harems are better than nobles. I mean, you often take a silver instead of smithy, even if the smithy is more expensive.
But you'd often rather have gold than either, making the comparison in those cases not that interesting.
The real reason nobles is better than harem, imo, is that it has greater potential in the types of games where you don't want gold as much (really action-heavy decks).
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Qvist

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2012, 03:49:48 am »
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But I think I have to defend Bank. The situations where Bank is worth more than Gold aren't so rare. Well, I have a win rate with Bank 1.48 ± 0.30 and an "Effect with" of 2.31, here just some basic examples:

Bank made the difference with Margrave and KC - like above mentioned
Even without buy Bank is great, like here with Hunting Party
Here Bank is nearly almost worth $4 and so there's no need for Gold to get to $8. It helped me to buy a Province in turn 11 and 14 each time with 2 Coppers, Silver and Bank.
Again without buy in a Colony game in combination with Venture
No need for Platinum here, Banks are mostly worth $4-$5 (oh, I forgot to mention Venture in the Bank article).

This may not be the best example, just the first few I found.
I would still put it below Gold, but Bank is great if you know when to buy it and these cases are not rare

I didn't make myself perfectly clear, it is a wonderful card that can be great and amazing in select kingdoms.  However its downsides are that when its good without +buy, gold usually gets you enough to provinces (I did forget colonies).  The only situation it is better is 3 copper+bank, 2copper+silver+bank, 4copper+bank.  These situations might occur early on before you green, then it could be worth less than gold.  This becomes a problem when your money sources are non-treasures, like terminals and cantrips.  $2 terminal + cantrip $1 + silver + bank = $7, that doesn't seem less common than situation above. 

I understand it has better abilities in drawing decks with +buys and/or colonies.  It even provides upgrade/remake abilities or ventures possibility.  BUT every kingdom Bank is in, Gold is in. In the majority of games, Bank isn't better than gold in enough situations.  To me, that makes it really weak in those situations. 

This is where I differ, its a game changer in like 15% of its boards (wharf engines essentially), but for a card to be (almost) equivalent to a $1 cheaper version in 50% of games, I can't rate that better than Nobles/fairgrounds/ and probably Expand/forge.

FWIW, I have positive effects with/without (.38/1.14) for bank.

I did see now that the second game link had another c&p error. :(  I change it immediately.
What I liked to say was there are some situations where you prefer Bank over Gold (game 2) and even Platinum (game 3) even without extra buys.
In the second game there was no good support card for Hunting Party beside Merchant Ship. But somehow it didn't worked out well. But the possibilities to get to $8 with Copper, Silver and Gold is lower than with Copper, Silver and Bank because it's very likely to have a hand like 2 Copper and Silver + X where X=Bank.
In the third game this is similar. With a few Ventures there's no need to buy a Platinum (I only forged one), because every Bank is very likely to give you $4-$5, but Bank costs $2 less.
I still agree that Bank isn't better than Gold, because the cases where you want Gold over Bank are more often. But still the cases where you want Bank over Gold are more often than many players think, that's my opinion. More often than many other cards in this list. I would put it on #6 in this list.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2012, 04:12:49 am »
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If I had to rank the $7 cards, it would be: KC > Bank > Forge > Expand.
KC is miles ahead of the rest. Bank/Forge is tough to say because Bank is good more often, while Forge has much higher upside. Expand, however, is pretty easily the worst, imo. Like, it might be worse than harem/farmland. It's basically an expensive remodel, which was quite accurately ranked 29/43 $4 cards. Expand is maybe good in a couple of situations:
1. You can get it early (like turn 3-4) and start expanding estates into $5s.
2. Late game to remodel into extra victory cards or accelerate end-game.
(1) happens too rarely to matter all that much. While it's worth going for something like a Baron opening to try to hit an early Forge, doing so for an Expand seems less worthwhile, meaning you really just have to luck into it.
(2) Happens in Colony games, but in Province games, if you're hitting 7 late, a lot of times you're dead anyway (since your opponent hits 8 ) and it doesn't matter.

Here's a fun graph:
http://councilroom.com/win_weighted_accum_turn.html?cards=Gold%2C%20Expand
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 04:19:01 am by HiveMindEmulator »
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Davio

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2012, 08:08:28 am »
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I agree with Expand easily being the worst.

Often, you don't really need that $1 extra for your jump and a Remodel suffices.
You're often doing Silver -> Duchy or Gold -> Province late in the game anyway.
And if you're Expanding a Gold into a Platinum, Mine would be even better and it costs $2 less!

The only useful thing for Expand to do is convert those $5 actions or Duchies into Provinces.
But if that's the only use you're getting out of it and it's only helping in the end game, another card may have been better.

I often have it in my head that Remodel's text says Gain a card costing exactly $2 more instead of up to, like it does on Governor.
Maybe if, like KC vs TR, Remodel would be more forcing and Expand would be less restrictive, the price jump of $3 may have been justified. No more Remodel Prov into Prov shenanigans, use Expand! :)
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RisingJaguar

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2012, 08:59:39 am »
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...

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.  It's not that it isn't STRONG, because yes it is a good card.  It essentially has the usefulness of gold.  But because there's such an easy replacement for bank in EVERY game (by every game, i just mean gold is in there all time, yes bank > gold in certain boards), why is it so good?

Second, the times with 2coppers+silver+bank are common(er) with straight BM, they shouldn't be common with $terminals/cantrips (which oddly should be the case with HP but shuffle luck :) ). 

It's like rating Laboratory every time Menagerie is in the game. Forge every time chapel is around.  The cheaper, sometimes (absolute) better option makes it less valuable in my eyes. 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 09:07:04 am by RisingJaguar »
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DG

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Re: THE Dominion Card List(s): $6 cards
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2012, 09:04:57 am »
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Quote
The only useful thing for Expand to do is convert those $5 actions or Duchies into Provinces.

It also expands peddlers and provinces into colonies. Some cards should always be considered within their box set.
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