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Author Topic: Forced Wins Training Sessions  (Read 5886 times)

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Seprix

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Forced Wins Training Sessions
« on: September 12, 2016, 06:10:31 pm »
+3

I want to get better at finding forced wins. People, post screenshots of games at scenarios, and let's get training. I will submit the first one. This game comes from Game 5 of Qvist versus Gamesou in DL S17, and it is available on YouTube on Qvist's channel. Now... Is there a forced win? If there is, what is it? The answer is in spoilers below:






Play Stonemason twice, trashing both Silvers for x2 Stonemasons. Play Horse Traders, discard Island. Buy Province + Curse for the three-pile.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 06:11:35 pm by Seprix »
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singletee

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2016, 06:15:21 pm »
+3

Another one: Stonemason Silver to Curse and Estate. Play Horse Traders, discarding Island and Stonemason. Play Silver. Buy Ball twice for four Islands.

Then edit your answer like I did to get one more point.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 06:21:23 pm by singletee »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2016, 06:16:30 pm »
+2

alternately, with more points: stonemason trash the other stonemason, gain curse and a copper, play horse traders, discard island and silver, with $11 and 2 buys buy two balls, gaining 4 islands, lose anyway because singletee did it first
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Seprix

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2016, 06:21:15 pm »
0

Nice. So the hope is that people can get some practice in, newer and older. I love finding forced wins too. Fun puzzles.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2016, 06:24:53 pm »
+1

Great idea!
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Dingan

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2016, 07:15:33 pm »
+2

The pain though is that you pretty much need to be video-recording your match to be able to go back to the instances in time of when something interesting happened, or you made an interesting decision.  Except in a few cases, I don't usually have the wherewithal to take a screenshot mid-turn of a time that would turn out to actually be an interesting snapshot of a game.  But then when the game ends, or I have some sort of epiphany regarding something that happened in the past, I do wish I had recorded it.  Of course, you can always look back at the logs.  But logs aren't as pretty as screenshots, and it's usually hard to figure out the exact game state at some arbitrary decision point.

So yeah, these would be cool, but in reality they're hard to capture.

Of course, this sort of thing might be much easier in the near future.

* We have some nice plans for new features.
...
  - Gamelogs where every decision is a link. Clicking on the link allows you to continue playing from that point on.
    This should facilitate questions like "What should I have done here?"
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2016, 07:22:44 pm »
+2

there is also stonemasonin two silvers into 4stonemasons, playing HT and buying Province/Curse
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Titandrake

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2016, 11:15:18 pm »
+3

Of course, you can always look back at the logs.  But logs aren't as pretty as screenshots, and it's usually hard to figure out the exact game state at some arbitrary decision point.

So yeah, these would be cool, but in reality they're hard to capture.

Of course, this sort of thing might be much easier in the near future.

* We have some nice plans for new features.
...
  - Gamelogs where every decision is a link. Clicking on the link allows you to continue playing from that point on.
    This should facilitate questions like "What should I have done here?"

Speaking of which, a while back I tried to create a game-log-to-replay website. It turns out recreating the game state from the logs is really annoying. There are some edge cases I couldn't figure out how to fix.

The work I have so far is at http://goko-replay.herokuapp.com. If you have a log that doesn't use Adventures cards, try it, it may work for you. Don't be surprised if it fails.

Back to an on-topic point. In the picture shown, note that gamesou didn't discard Curse to Mountebank, to gamble on getting a 3-pile before Qvist catches up from his powered up Cities. So, Qvist couldn't have gotten to this point without gamesou doing what he/she did. (Not sure of gamesou's gender.)

If Qvist doesn't play those 3 Mountebanks, is there a way for Qvist to win this turn?

Without the Curses, gamesou has 8 VP. Qvist still has 2 VP.

SM Mountebank into 2 Islands.
SM Mountebank into 2 Islands.
Horse Traders, discard Mountebank + Island.

$7 + 2 buys is SM overpay by $2 and SM for the 3-pile.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 11:30:20 pm by Titandrake »
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Qvist

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2016, 05:31:18 am »
+4

 :(

Man, I hate missing forced wins, but I just couldn't figure it out. It's especially bad as I lost that match.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2016, 06:01:47 am »
+4

:(

Man, I hate missing forced wins, but I just couldn't figure it out. It's especially bad as I lost that match.

Poor guy. Not only missing 3 forced wins in a turn, but everyone discussing those forced wins on the forum. :P
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gamesou

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2016, 06:44:17 am »
+3

(Not sure of gamesou's gender.)

Last time I checked, it was "he".
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2016, 06:55:04 am »
+4

(Not sure of gamesou's gender.)

Last time I checked, it was "he".

When was that?
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Chris is me

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2016, 07:51:33 am »
+1

(Not sure of gamesou's gender.)

Last time I checked, it was "he".

Pronouns aren't a gender  ::)
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2016, 10:07:20 am »
+3

Can't he identify himself as a pronoun?
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2016, 10:34:49 am »
0

Can't he identify himself as a pronoun?

Careful, sounds to me like you're discriminating against pronouns!
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2016, 10:35:03 am »
+7

Can't he identify himself as a pronoun?

I suspect this was not what my father expected when he said that one day I'd be somebody.
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Chris is me

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2016, 11:18:21 am »
0

Can't he identify himself as a pronoun?

I guess there's no reason you couldn't if you really wanted to, but I think the confusion would be more trouble than it's worth. Bonus points if you identify as one pronoun but then use a different pronouns for yourself.
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Seprix

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2016, 11:35:25 am »
0

Thanks, based Chris is me. I know you love your pronouns, but pronouns are not forced wins.  :P I don't want this topic derailed.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2016, 11:40:53 am »
0

Can't he identify himself as a pronoun?

I guess there's no reason you couldn't if you really wanted to, but I think the confusion would be more trouble than it's worth. Bonus points if you identify as one pronoun but then use a different pronouns for yourself.

So are you pro pronouns?
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2016, 11:47:52 am »
0

Can't he identify himself as a pronoun?

I guess there's no reason you couldn't if you really wanted to, but I think the confusion would be more trouble than it's worth. Bonus points if you identify as one pronoun but then use a different pronouns for yourself.

I identified myself more as an "eh" person anyway.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2016, 11:54:58 am »
+1

Can't he identify himself as a pronoun?

I guess there's no reason you couldn't if you really wanted to, but I think the confusion would be more trouble than it's worth. Bonus points if you identify as one pronoun but then use a different pronouns for yourself.

I identified myself more as an "eh" person anyway.

Do you kill aleins and doesn't afraid of anything?

Chris is me

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2016, 12:32:46 pm »
+1

Thanks, based Chris is me. I know you love your pronouns, but pronouns are not forced wins.  :P I don't want this topic derailed.

Then post another scenario!
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vsiewnar

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2016, 09:41:13 pm »
+4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxDPYnG6tP4 From around 13:00

Not too difficult though
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Seprix

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2016, 10:21:34 pm »
0



For reference

Pretty easy. Gain Duchy, trash Stables > Duchy, buy Duchy

Assuming no Rats trash by Transmogrify, Trash Fortress > Duchy, Butcher Duchy > Duchy, buy Duchy
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 10:23:33 pm by Seprix »
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Titandrake

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2016, 11:29:13 pm »
+1

Hey, I found a log that didn't crash the replayer. It's my turn. I have a forced win from here. Also not too hard, but important to keep in mind.

(I currently have 13 VP. My opponent has 21 VP. http://imgur.com/I1YYAUQ may be easier on the eyes, idk why it's blurring here.)

« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 11:33:52 pm by Titandrake »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2016, 11:36:49 pm »
+1

Play workshop gaining silver, play worker's village*2, remodel gold into province, buy province
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2016, 11:55:24 am »
0

Play workshop gaining silver, play worker's village*2, remodel gold into province, buy province
Lol.  I went a bit over-fancy; same thing but workshop for remodel, remodelling the gold and a province then buying a duchy for a 1-point win.

Your way's better :P
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Dingan

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2016, 03:01:29 pm »
+2

Could I have won it here?

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Seprix

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2016, 03:09:24 pm »
0

No way in hell. There's no possible three-pile where you also win. You cannot get 4 Provinces either.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 03:10:57 pm by Seprix »
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2016, 03:20:23 pm »
0

Ouch, you seem to be a coin short for piling the Provinces. Salvaging the Thief, playing Rogue and all your money gets you 8 different cards in play, so you can gain 2 Provinces with the Horns, and then you have $15... Salvaging Rogue instead of Thief would get a coin extra, but you lose the $2 from Rogue so you only have $14. A three-pile also seems impossible. I don't think it can be done.

The above might still be the correct play (buying Province-Duchy at the end) depending on how your opponent's deck is doing. I guess it's a mirror, so you're kinda playing for your opponent to dud anyway, so you might as well take a lead in the process.
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Seprix

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2016, 03:21:09 pm »
0

Ouch, you seem to be a coin short for piling the Provinces. Salvaging the Thief, playing Rogue and all your money gets you 8 different cards in play, so you can gain 2 Provinces with the Horns, and then you have $15... Salvaging Rogue instead of Thief would get a coin extra, but you lose the $2 from Rogue so you only have $14. A three-pile also seems impossible. I don't think it can be done.

The above might still be the correct play (buying Province-Duchy at the end) depending on how your opponent's deck is doing. I guess it's a mirror, so you're kinda playing for your opponent to dud anyway, so you might as well take a lead in the process.

Salvaging Thief and playing Rogue does nothing, since you also need the +Action to do such a thing.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2016, 03:24:08 pm »
+1

Ouch, you seem to be a coin short for piling the Provinces. Salvaging the Thief, playing Rogue and all your money gets you 8 different cards in play, so you can gain 2 Provinces with the Horns, and then you have $15... Salvaging Rogue instead of Thief would get a coin extra, but you lose the $2 from Rogue so you only have $14. A three-pile also seems impossible. I don't think it can be done.

The above might still be the correct play (buying Province-Duchy at the end) depending on how your opponent's deck is doing. I guess it's a mirror, so you're kinda playing for your opponent to dud anyway, so you might as well take a lead in the process.

Salvaging Thief and playing Rogue does nothing, since you also need the +Action to do such a thing.

Right. Somehow I thought he had 2 Actions left. I guess you can get to that point by discarding Thief to Hamlet, but then you need to Salvage a Relic. It still gets you $14 so you can still buy Province-Duchy after gaining 2 Provinces.
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Seprix

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2016, 03:25:31 pm »
0

Ouch, you seem to be a coin short for piling the Provinces. Salvaging the Thief, playing Rogue and all your money gets you 8 different cards in play, so you can gain 2 Provinces with the Horns, and then you have $15... Salvaging Rogue instead of Thief would get a coin extra, but you lose the $2 from Rogue so you only have $14. A three-pile also seems impossible. I don't think it can be done.

The above might still be the correct play (buying Province-Duchy at the end) depending on how your opponent's deck is doing. I guess it's a mirror, so you're kinda playing for your opponent to dud anyway, so you might as well take a lead in the process.

Salvaging Thief and playing Rogue does nothing, since you also need the +Action to do such a thing.

Right. Somehow I thought he had 2 Actions left. I guess you can get to that point by discarding Thief to Hamlet, but then you need to Salvage a Relic. It still gets you $14 so you can still buy Province-Duchy after gaining 2 Provinces.

Correct. I thought I was going blind for not seeing a pileout.  ;D
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2016, 03:34:54 pm »
+2

3 Province + Duchy looks safe here, unless your opponent's deck is really weird. That puts you at 33 VP to 17 VP, so they need Province + 3 Duchy + Estate to tie or Province + 4 Duchy to win. I don't see many lines where they can do Province + 4 Duchy, but can't do 3 Provinces + Duchy or 4 Provinces. They have 3 Horns and no way to gain Horns in the middle of their turn.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2016, 01:01:53 am »
0

How about here?



EDIT: Whoops, didn't realize there weren't victory point counters.  But with no green or purple cards gone from the supply (or Dame Josephine), the largest VP deficit I could have been down at the time was 3 (I don't think it was that large, but lets say it was).  In that case, could I have won?  Answer: I still think so, but not sure.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 03:45:27 pm by Dingan »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2016, 01:37:58 am »
+1

You maybe could have gotten away with playing the Herald, but why bother?

If you do not, play Bridge Troll, play Messenger, Expand Herald to Bridge Troll, Copper to Duchy, play Copper, Messenger the remaining two Bridge Trolls, buy 3 Estates That gives 6 points, which can probably be improved upon if one doesn't mess around as much.

Edit: -1 coin token
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 01:39:46 am by traces Around »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2016, 11:38:35 pm »
0

Could I have won here?  I believe at this point it was... me: 1 Province, 0 Estates, 1 Curse -- opponent: 0 Provinces, 2 Estates, 2 Curses.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 11:41:45 pm by Dingan »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2016, 11:47:00 pm »
+1

Could I have won here?  I believe at this point it was... me: 1 Province, 0 Estates, 1 Curse -- opponent: 0 Provinces, 2 Estates, 2 Curses.
YeahDiscard feast, stonemason feast into two stonemasons, play bm not buying anything Play coin token stonemason overpay two, stonemason overpay 2
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2016, 10:40:10 am »
0

How about here?

EDIT: Whoops, didn't realize there weren't victory point counters.  But with no green or purple cards gone from the supply (or Dame Josephine), the largest VP deficit I could have been down at the time was 3 (I don't think it was that large, but lets say it was).  In that case, could I have won?  Answer: I still think so, but not sure.

Besides tracer's answer, can also Expand Troll -> Province, Expand Herald -> Troll, Play Messenger and buy Messenger (giving Trolls).
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2016, 08:35:56 pm »
0

Here's one I came across IRL today.  I thought there should be a forced win, but didn't spot one.

My hand: silver, 6 charms, stonemason, villa, city quarter

In play: 1/2 city (2 city quarters), royal blacksmith, market, 2 bakers, remodel

Deck: 1 copper

Discard: Nothing

I have 7 coin tokens

Supply:

Province: 8
Duchy: 8
Estate: 7
Curse: 10

Copper: a lot
Silver: a lot
Gold: a lot

Overlord: 9
Royal Blacksmith: 6
City Quarter: 5
Charm: 2
Market: 9
Baker: 6
Bureaucrat: 10
Villa: 5
Remodel: 4
Stonemason: 6

Wedding
Aqueduct with 2 VP on it

My opponent leads 4-0
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2016, 09:14:47 pm »
+4

Here's one I came across IRL today.  I thought there should be a forced win, but didn't spot one.

Here's one that doesn't use Charm's special ability at all:

Play all Charms for $2 +buy, play Silver, use all 7 tokens ($22 total)
Bunch of Stonemason overpays:
  Stonemason (for 2 more Stonemasons) $4
  Stonemason (for 2 Villas) $6 - go right back to buy phase
  Stonemason (for 2 Villas) $6 - go right back to buy phase
  Stonemason (for Villa + Remodel) $6 (no money left)

Should have 6 Actions (from the Villas) now if I understand the game state right. Stonemasons and Villas are gone.

Play City Quarter and draw 7 cards. Those will be the Copper and either 6 Stonemasons or 5 Stonemasons 1 Remodel.

Play Stonemasons and trash Villas until the Estates are empty.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 09:16:10 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2016, 11:26:50 pm »
+1

Here's one I came across IRL today.  I thought there should be a forced win, but didn't spot one.

Here's one that doesn't use Charm's special ability at all:

Play all Charms for $2 +buy, play Silver, use all 7 tokens ($22 total)
Bunch of Stonemason overpays:
  Stonemason (for 2 more Stonemasons) $4
  Stonemason (for 2 Villas) $6 - go right back to buy phase
  Stonemason (for 2 Villas) $6 - go right back to buy phase
  Stonemason (for Villa + Remodel) $6 (no money left)

Should have 6 Actions (from the Villas) now if I understand the game state right. Stonemasons and Villas are gone.

Play City Quarter and draw 7 cards. Those will be the Copper and either 6 Stonemasons or 5 Stonemasons 1 Remodel.

Play Stonemasons and trash Villas until the Estates are empty.


Yep, I'm sure there were a bunch.  When I played this I didn't have all the time in the world and missed stonemason stuff.  I found one afterwards that used the charms to pile the bakers and then pile the villas using stonemason stuff and get the last charm with a duchy for a 1 point win.  Yours seems easier to spot though.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2016, 01:52:10 am »
+2

From a league game.

Maximize the number of points you can guarantee ending the game with. I can get to 22 VP.

(If you were looking at this before, there was a mistake that was fixed.)

« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 03:03:18 am by Titandrake »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2016, 08:54:50 am »
+1

From a league game.

Maximize the number of points you can guarantee ending the game with. I can get to 22 VP.

Isn't it possible to get 24 VP?

Play University x3, gain Butcher x3.  Have 4 actions.
Play Apprentice trashing Potion, Draw Apprentice, Laboratory, Potion, and Butcher.
Play Laboratory, draw Butcher x2.
Play Butcher, trash Vineyard, gain Vineyard.
Play Butcher, trash Vineyard, gain Vineyard.
Play Butcher, trash Butcher, gain Province.
Play Butcher, trash Apprentice, gain Province.
Play Potion, buy Vineyard.

End with Province x2, Vineyard x3 w 12 actions = 24 VP.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2016, 09:15:00 am »
0

From a league game.

Maximize the number of points you can guarantee ending the game with. I can get to 22 VP.

Isn't it possible to get 24 VP?

Play University x3, gain Butcher x3.  Have 4 actions.
Play Apprentice trashing Potion, Draw Apprentice, Laboratory, Potion, and Butcher.
Play Laboratory, draw Butcher x2.
Play Butcher, trash Vineyard, gain Vineyard.
Play Butcher, trash Vineyard, gain Vineyard.
Play Butcher, trash Butcher, gain Province.
Play Butcher, trash Apprentice, gain Province.
Play Potion, buy Vineyard.

End with Province x2, Vineyard x3 w 12 actions = 24 VP.


The only tweak is you want to Apprentice Potion after the first Uni gain to guarantee the Lab draw, then you use the other 2 Uni, then you play the Lab.

Also this loss still hurts :(

How did you get the Isotropic interface for our game?
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2016, 10:02:53 am »
0

From a league game.

Maximize the number of points you can guarantee ending the game with. I can get to 22 VP.

Isn't it possible to get 24 VP?

Play University x3, gain Butcher x3.  Have 4 actions.
Play Apprentice trashing Potion, Draw Apprentice, Laboratory, Potion, and Butcher.
Play Laboratory, draw Butcher x2.
Play Butcher, trash Vineyard, gain Vineyard.
Play Butcher, trash Vineyard, gain Vineyard.
Play Butcher, trash Butcher, gain Province.
Play Butcher, trash Apprentice, gain Province.
Play Potion, buy Vineyard.

End with Province x2, Vineyard x3 w 12 actions = 24 VP.


The only tweak is you want to Apprentice Potion after the first Uni gain to guarantee the Lab draw, then you use the other 2 Uni, then you play the Lab.
You dont have to do that in this order since lab is in his draw and University doesnt topdeck
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2016, 01:51:04 pm »
0

How did you get the Isotropic interface for our game?

I pasted the plaintext log link into http://goko-replay.herokuapp.com/.

I abandoned it after Guilds so it doesn't work for most logs, but luckily it worked for this one.

@aku_chi: nice that's better than mine. My solution was to play all but 1 University, Butcher a University into Vineyard, then a Vineyard into Vineyard, then a Copper into Province, then buy the 3rd Vineyard.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 01:53:31 pm by Titandrake »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2016, 01:16:41 am »
+1

How bout here?  My opponent had 2 Duchies and 1 Estate; I had no green.  I don't remember who went first.



Answer: Yes (I think) -- gain Moneylender w/ University, play WT (drawing nothing), play other WT, draw Moneylender, play Moneylender-Copper, gain 2 HoP's with 2 HoP's, gain 2 Duchies w/ 2 other HoP's, buy 2 Estates, win by 1 VP.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2016, 01:29:45 am »
0

Answer: Yes (I think) -- gain Moneylender w/ University, play WT (drawing nothing), play other WT, draw Moneylender, play Moneylender-Copper, gain 2 HoP's with 2 HoP's, gain 2 Duchies w/ 2 other HoP's, buy 2 Estates, win by 1 VP.

Edit: this is wrong as Dingan mentions! Oops!

Gain Ratcatcher, then you can gain 2 Provinces with your 2 HoPs instead of Duchies because you still have the Copper and you can still buy a single Estate. This assumes that I can count.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 03:20:40 am by JW »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2016, 01:42:19 am »
+2

Answer: Yes (I think) -- gain Moneylender w/ University, play WT (drawing nothing), play other WT, draw Moneylender, play Moneylender-Copper, gain 2 HoP's with 2 HoP's, gain 2 Duchies w/ 2 other HoP's, buy 2 Estates, win by 1 VP.

Gain Ratcatcher, then you can gain 2 Provinces with your 2 HoPs instead of Duchies because you still have the Copper and you can still buy a single Estate. This assumes that I can count.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Reserve cards do not count as "in play" when they're played -- they do when they're called.  And therefore don't contribute to HoP.  So depending on what you drew with the RCer, you might only have 7 uniques in play (in which case I wouldn't be guaranteed a win).
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 01:43:42 am by Dingan »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2016, 07:44:25 am »
+2

Answer: Yes (I think) -- gain Moneylender w/ University, play WT (drawing nothing), play other WT, draw Moneylender, play Moneylender-Copper, gain 2 HoP's with 2 HoP's, gain 2 Duchies w/ 2 other HoP's, buy 2 Estates, win by 1 VP.

Gain Ratcatcher, then you can gain 2 Provinces with your 2 HoPs instead of Duchies because you still have the Copper and you can still buy a single Estate. This assumes that I can count.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Reserve cards do not count as "in play" when they're played -- they do when they're called.  And therefore don't contribute to HoP.  So depending on what you drew with the RCer, you might only have 7 uniques in play (in which case I wouldn't be guaranteed a win).
Just use the 2nd Edition Moneylender and don't trash the copper ;)
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2016, 04:58:26 pm »
+1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQPsVIhmk9c

from about 10:30 or so (the start of my last turn). Can you find the winning line (you probably can)?

My deck was Copper, Ruined Market, Death Cart, Counterfeit, Count, Vagrant, Fortress(x4), Hunting Grounds(x2), Mercenary(x2).
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 07:58:05 pm by vsiewnar »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2016, 05:16:49 pm »
+1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQPsVIhmk9c

from about 10:30 or so (the start of my last turn). Can you find the winning line (you probably can)?

My deck was Copper, Ruined Market, Death Cart, Counterfeit, Count, Vagrant, Fortress(x4), Hunting Grounds(x2), Mercenary(x2).

Tricky one.

On that last turn, when you had 5 cards remaining in your deck, you could have trashed two Fortresses with Mercenary.  Play two Fortresses.  Either Vagrant is the bottom card in your deck (as was the case), or you can play Vagrant to draw your last card.  You have three actions remaining, which you can use to play Death Cart, trashing Hunting Grounds to gain three more Estates; and Ruined Market.  You can then play Counterfeit.  You have 10 coins and 3 buys, which is enough to buy Death Cart (emptying the Ruins), and the last two Estates.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2017, 09:35:15 pm »
0

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2017, 09:41:33 pm »
+1

Lost City to draw HoP/WV

Throne Artisan, gaining and topdecking 2 Duchies

Play treasures, trashing 2 HoPs for 2 Provinces

Buy Duchy

31-25

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2017, 11:38:44 am »
0

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2017, 11:41:42 am »
0

Trash 3 curses (8-8), gain 3 villages with ws, buy a village and estate
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 12:04:20 am by LaLight »
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Wins: M87, M85, M92, M99, RMM37, RMM39, RMM44, BM24, M86, M94, M95, M100, ZM24
Losses: M88, M90, RMM38, NM8, NM9, M97, ZM23, NM10
Draws: RMM40
Lynched: M95, NM10
MVPs: RMM39, RMM44
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2017, 07:57:38 pm »
0

Trash 3 curses (8-8), gain 3 villages with ws, buy a ws and estate

I think you mean buy village and estate?
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2017, 12:04:06 am »
0

Trash 3 curses (8-8), gain 3 villages with ws, buy a ws and estate

I think you mean buy village and estate?

Ah, yes, fixed.
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Wins: M87, M85, M92, M99, RMM37, RMM39, RMM44, BM24, M86, M94, M95, M100, ZM24
Losses: M88, M90, RMM38, NM8, NM9, M97, ZM23, NM10
Draws: RMM40
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2017, 01:59:48 pm »
+4

I won on the following turn after this one, but could I have ended it here?  (I don't think so, but not sure)

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2017, 02:16:02 pm »
0

I believe it's possible.

Gain Fortress, topdeck whatever.
Play Fortress - draw whatever
Play Stonemason - trashing Fortress - gaining Stonemason x2
Play Fortress - draw Stonemason
Play Stonemason - trashing Fortress - gaining Stonemason x2
Play Fortress - draw Stonemason
Play Stonemason - trashing Transmogrify - gaining Stonemason x2
Pay Silver x2 - buy Fortress


I think there are also some lines to gain points, too.  But, I'm not in the mood for extra credit.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 02:19:53 pm by aku_chi »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2017, 02:34:44 pm »
0

Gain Stonemason, topdeck Province (SM 5).
Play Fortress, draw Province.
Play Stonemason, trash Apprentice, gain 2 Fortresses into hand.  (F 0, 2 empty piles)
Play Stonemason, trash Fortress, gain 2 Stonemasons.  (SM 3)
Play Treasures, buy Stonemason, overpay by 2, gain 2 Stonemasons. (SM 0, 3 empty piles)
You win!
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2017, 02:50:11 pm »
+1

You can 4 pile by gaining Village off Artisan and doing combinations of Stone/Village and Stone/Stone gains and drawing, making sure to use Apprentice at some time when it can draw 2-3 cards, then overpaying to get the last 2 Fortresses. It's more complicated to diagram out since there are different cases depending on whether you draw Village or Stonemason first but all the cases work. You can get at least 1 Estate along the way, maybe 3 is possible with certain draws.

I tried to find an ending that emptied the Transmogs but didn't see one.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 02:58:52 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2017, 12:38:28 pm »
+2

I won on the following turn after this one, but could I have ended it here?  (I don't think so, but not sure)



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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2017, 01:26:05 pm »
0

Could I have won here?  I believe there was just the 1 Copper in my discard pile.  I don't think I could have.

EDIT: What about if I still had my Hunting Grounds in hand (I had to play it earlier because it was my only draw card, but I think I could have avoided playing it had I drawn my Patrol earlier)?

« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 01:31:09 pm by Dingan »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2017, 02:45:42 pm »
0

Could I have won here?  I believe there was just the 1 Copper in my discard pile.  I don't think I could have.

I agree that it is impossible.  You don't have enough gains.  You could Forge a Sage (or something) into the last Farmers' Market to get an additional buy, but the only pile you'd have enough buys to empty is the Fortune pile, which you have insufficient money to empty.  Having a Hunting Grounds doesn't help, because you'd have to use the Forge on that to get the Estates, and then you still need 5 buys to empty piles, and you only have 3.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2017, 06:13:44 pm »
+2

Cross linking this relevant new ShuffleIT feature announcement:

http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=1495.msg4903#msg4903

There is a can you win puzzle at the bottom of the post.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2017, 10:45:58 pm »
0

It's so hard!  >:(
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2017, 02:09:25 am »
0

Cross linking this relevant new ShuffleIT feature announcement:

http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=1495.msg4903#msg4903

There is a can you win puzzle at the bottom of the post.

It looks like it only works if you own the cards that were used in that game, btw.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #69 on: May 06, 2017, 01:07:49 pm »
+1

I've got one of moderate difficulty.  If you want to play it out:
Game Id: 3381502
Decision: 198

Rabid's last turn was really complicated.  For extra credit, you can roll back even further and see if you can end it on his turn!

« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 01:09:04 pm by aku_chi »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #70 on: May 06, 2017, 02:09:27 pm »
+1

Procession: Butcher. Trash Butcher+ 3 coin tokens for province. Trash Loan + 3 coin tokens into hunting grounds.  Trash the played butcher and gain hunting grounds. 2 piles empty, 26 - 20.  Play Mountebank, curses empty.  Buy province, 26-25 win.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #71 on: May 06, 2017, 02:25:19 pm »
0

I've tried a few times, still can't win as Rabid.
If you don't have 2 x curse in hand it is fairly easy.
I keep coming up 1 gain or 1 point short.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2017, 07:04:12 pm »
0



In one of sangatsu's videos I found this endgame scenario. sangatsu's discard pile contains 3 Coppers. Find a guaranteed win.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 07:17:19 pm by singletee »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2017, 07:11:41 pm »
0

In one of sangatsu's videos I found this endgame scenario. Find a guaranteed win.



Presumably all the Curses are in the trash (i.e. the opponent is guaranteed to not have one in hand)?

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2017, 07:13:00 pm »
0

Presumably all the Curses are in the trash (i.e. the opponent is guaranteed to not have one in hand)?

In the game the opponent didn't have one in hand, but there is a guaranteed win even if they do.

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2017, 07:18:06 pm »
0

I mistakenly left off a useful piece of info; added now.

Awaclus

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2017, 07:19:43 pm »
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I was just about to ask about that. Got it by the way.

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2017, 07:54:32 pm »
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I don't believe the discard is necessary at all:

Remake 2x silver -> 2x-remake play Mountebanke, Silver, Silver, with 20$ and 4 buys go Remake, Royal Blacksmith, Royal Blacksmith, Annex
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2017, 08:02:26 pm »
0

I don't believe the discard is necessary at all:

Remake 2x silver -> 2x-remake play Mountebanke, Silver, Silver, with 20$ and 4 buys go Remake, Royal Blacksmith, Royal Blacksmith, Annex

You have 8 debt to pay off before you buy anything.

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2017, 08:22:37 pm »
+2

There are couple ways to do this, but I think I like this best:

Play Remake, trash two Silvers for a Remake and a Talisman.
Play Royal Blacksmith, effectively draw Remake and Talisman.
Play Mountebank, assume opponent has Curse in hand.
Play 2 Silvers, and a Talisman, pay off 8 debt leaving you with $13 and 8 buys.
Buy 4 Curses, gaining 7 - 4 Buys left.  You are at -7VP.
Buy a Remake, gaining 2.  $9 and 3 Buys left, and 3 piles are empty.
Buy a Province and an Annex, and end the game with 2VP to your opponent's 0VP.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 08:24:47 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2017, 08:59:53 pm »
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I don't believe the discard is necessary at all:

Remake 2x silver -> 2x-remake play Mountebanke, Silver, Silver, with 20$ and 4 buys go Remake, Royal Blacksmith, Royal Blacksmith, Annex

You have 8 debt to pay off before you buy anything.

ah, that's what i didn't see.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2017, 09:32:45 pm »
+4

So am I missing something? Those solutions seem complicated.

Remake 2 Silvers into Remake.
Draw them with RB.
Remake Silver into the last Remake and Remake into Duchy.
Play Silver for a total of $16, to pay of the debt, buy RB, pay off debt and buy the last RB.

You have plenty of actions/buys to play Mountebank and buy an Estate also, but don't need to.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 09:44:53 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2017, 10:42:08 pm »
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How do you know he won't react to the mountebank by discarding a curse?

Procession: Butcher. Trash Butcher+ 3 coin tokens for province. Trash Loan + 3 coin tokens into hunting grounds.  Trash the played butcher and gain hunting grounds. 2 piles empty, 26 - 20.  Play Mountebank, curses empty.  Buy province, 26-25 win.
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werothegreat

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2017, 11:25:01 pm »
0

So am I missing something? Those solutions seem complicated.


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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #84 on: June 07, 2017, 11:57:51 pm »
0

Here is one I played tonight



Find a forced win this turn.

I can't get a copy of the game to load perfectly.
You can either reload and play game #4228902 from the last decision and then play one Lab to get to the state pictured,
or load the original game #4227616 at decision 213. In either case sit in Deadlock's position of course.

My solution is in #4227616 I'm not up to speed on any way to look at the log, but you can load at the last decision I guess?

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #85 on: June 08, 2017, 12:41:58 am »
+2

TR-Remodel estate into remodel, lab into remodel
Lab, draw 2 remodels
TR-remodel gold into province, lab into gold
Lab, draw gold and province
TR-remodel gold into province, province into province
Play festivals, buy the last province
Win 24-21 with room to spare
Seriously how did you end up with 9 throne rooms and 9 labs
Kind of impossible to lose at that point
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 12:43:59 am by liopoil »
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #86 on: June 08, 2017, 12:42:16 am »
+1

Here is one I played tonight



Find a forced win this turn.

I can't get a copy of the game to load perfectly.
You can either reload and play game #4228902 from the last decision and then play one Lab to get to the state pictured,
or load the original game #4227616 at decision 213. In either case sit in Deadlock's position of course.

My solution is in #4227616 I'm not up to speed on any way to look at the log, but you can load at the last decision I guess?
Play TR-TR-TR, throning two Festivals and a Remodel,
            Remodel Two Labs into Festivals then draw then both with another Lab
            Play all five remaining Festivals
            You will have a total of 21 coins and 10 buys (from Gold and playing Festival 9 times) and 30 cards in the deck
            Buy the last Festival, 4 Gardens and 5 coppers, to reach a total of 23 points


You can do better if you gain Artisans instead of Festivals with Remodel (which also allows you to win even without Gardens), but the solution is slightly longer...




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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #87 on: June 08, 2017, 01:14:17 am »
+1

Yeah a lot of lines work here, although the one I came up with is a lot more complicated than it needs to be.


TR-Remodel, Gold --> Province and Lab --> Artisan
Play Lab
TR-Artisan, gain Duchy + Remodel, topdeck Estate + Duchy
TR-Remodel, trash 2 Provinces --> 2 Provinces
Play 5 Festivals
Buy Province + Estate + 4 Copper

2 Province + Duchy + Estate gained = +16 points which puts you to 23 VP.
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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #88 on: June 08, 2017, 02:55:57 am »
0

An alternative way to play my last turn in one of my league matches against Lalight would lead to this:





The two cards in the deck are a Giant and a Stonemason, and the Magpie is the only card in the discard. Note that there´s also a -1 coin token from opponent´s Bridge Troll that is not showing...
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 02:57:06 am by gloures »
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #89 on: June 08, 2017, 03:14:00 am »
+1

An alternative way to play my last turn in one of my league matches against Lalight would lead to this:





The two cards in the deck are a Giant and a Stonemason, and the Magpie is the only card in the discard. Note that there´s also a -1 coin token from opponent´s Bridge Troll that is not showing...

With that final bit of information, here's what I've come up with:

Play Magpie, draw Giant, gain Magpie.
Hand is now Bridge Troll, Stonemason x2, Giant x2, Copper x2, and Silver. Stonemason both giants away to gain 4 Magpies.

Play Bridge Troll. Play Silver and Coppers for $3 total (due to -coin token). Buy Stonemason and overpay by 1, gaining the other Stonemason and a Chapel. Buy Estate.

Without the -coin token, we could've done another solution in which we played Stonemason on the silver and played the giants for $. This works too, though.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #90 on: June 08, 2017, 03:40:59 am »
+1

Procession: Butcher. Trash Butcher+ 3 coin tokens for province. Trash Loan + 3 coin tokens into hunting grounds.  Trash the played butcher and gain hunting grounds. 2 piles empty, 26 - 20.  Play Mountebank, curses empty.  Buy province, 26-25 win.

I feel bad responding to a post from so far back, but the Mountebank might not actually distribute the curse if the opponent can block it. So...
Procession on Butcher. Trash Province into Province and Mountebank into Province. Two Provinces in the Supply,
 and 3 coin tokens left. Play the final Butcher and spend 5 coin tokens to convert Loan into Province. With 4 Coppers, 2 Loans,
 and 2 pre-existing coins, we can buy the last province and win.

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #91 on: June 08, 2017, 10:26:16 am »
0

Seriously how did you end up with 9 throne rooms and 9 labs
Kind of impossible to lose at that point

The game was against a friend I'm attempting to teach. I've yet to get him to prioritize trashing first, so we have a way to go.

It was for sure "kind of impossible" to lose at that point, but I thought the win on that turn was a bit tricky. Per the responses here, not quite as tricky as I thought. My line matched yours pretty closely.

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Re: Forced Wins Training Sessions
« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2017, 12:02:13 pm »
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This is not very difficult to solve (I solved it on the fly in the actual game), but it's pretty interesting and especially since my opponent could have easily prevented this had he thought of it so it's also an opportunity to learn from his mistake so that you won't repeat it.

Game Id: 5103008, decision index: 321 (you're supposed to be Awaclus)

Here's the solution: http://windominion.com/s34LJIo
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