Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Seprix]

I want to get better at finding forced wins. People, post screenshots of games at scenarios, and let's get training. I will submit the first one. This game comes from Game 5 of Qvist versus Gamesou in DL S17, and it is available on YouTube on Qvist's channel. Now... Is there a forced win? If there is, what is it? The answer is in spoilers below:






Play Stonemason twice, trashing both Silvers for x2 Stonemasons. Play Horse Traders, discard Island. Buy Province + Curse for the three-pile.

[singletee]

Another one: Stonemason Silver to Curse and Estate. Play Horse Traders, discarding Island and Stonemason. Play Silver. Buy Ball twice for four Islands.

Then edit your answer like I did to get one more point.

[schadd]

alternately, with more points: stonemason trash the other stonemason, gain curse and a copper, play horse traders, discard island and silver, with $11 and 2 buys buy two balls, gaining 4 islands, lose anyway because singletee did it first

[Seprix]

Nice. So the hope is that people can get some practice in, newer and older. I love finding forced wins too. Fun puzzles.

[AdrianHealey]

Great idea!

[Dingan]

The pain though is that you pretty much need to be video-recording your match to be able to go back to the instances in time of when something interesting happened, or you made an interesting decision.  Except in a few cases, I don't usually have the wherewithal to take a screenshot mid-turn of a time that would turn out to actually be an interesting snapshot of a game.  But then when the game ends, or I have some sort of epiphany regarding something that happened in the past, I do wish I had recorded it.  Of course, you can always look back at the logs.  But logs aren't as pretty as screenshots, and it's usually hard to figure out the exact game state at some arbitrary decision point.

So yeah, these would be cool, but in reality they're hard to capture.

Of course, this sort of thing might be much easier in the near future.

* We have some nice plans for new features.
...
  - Gamelogs where every decision is a link. Clicking on the link allows you to continue playing from that point on.
    This should facilitate questions like "What should I have done here?"

[drsteelhammer]

there is also stonemasonin two silvers into 4stonemasons, playing HT and buying Province/Curse

[Titandrake]

Of course, you can always look back at the logs.  But logs aren't as pretty as screenshots, and it's usually hard to figure out the exact game state at some arbitrary decision point.

So yeah, these would be cool, but in reality they're hard to capture.

Of course, this sort of thing might be much easier in the near future.

* We have some nice plans for new features.
...
  - Gamelogs where every decision is a link. Clicking on the link allows you to continue playing from that point on.
    This should facilitate questions like "What should I have done here?"

Speaking of which, a while back I tried to create a game-log-to-replay website. It turns out recreating the game state from the logs is really annoying. There are some edge cases I couldn't figure out how to fix.

The work I have so far is at http://goko-replay.herokuapp.com. If you have a log that doesn't use Adventures cards, try it, it may work for you. Don't be surprised if it fails.

Back to an on-topic point. In the picture shown, note that gamesou didn't discard Curse to Mountebank, to gamble on getting a 3-pile before Qvist catches up from his powered up Cities. So, Qvist couldn't have gotten to this point without gamesou doing what he/she did. (Not sure of gamesou's gender.)

If Qvist doesn't play those 3 Mountebanks, is there a way for Qvist to win this turn?

Without the Curses, gamesou has 8 VP. Qvist still has 2 VP.

SM Mountebank into 2 Islands.
SM Mountebank into 2 Islands.
Horse Traders, discard Mountebank + Island.

$7 + 2 buys is SM overpay by $2 and SM for the 3-pile.

[Qvist]

 

Man, I hate missing forced wins, but I just couldn't figure it out. It's especially bad as I lost that match.

[Aleimon Thimble]

Man, I hate missing forced wins, but I just couldn't figure it out. It's especially bad as I lost that match.

Poor guy. Not only missing 3 forced wins in a turn, but everyone discussing those forced wins on the forum.

[gamesou]

(Not sure of gamesou's gender.)

Last time I checked, it was "he".

[AdrianHealey]

(Not sure of gamesou's gender.)

Last time I checked, it was "he".

When was that?

[Chris is me]

(Not sure of gamesou's gender.)

Last time I checked, it was "he".

Pronouns aren't a gender 

[drsteelhammer]

Can't he identify himself as a pronoun?

[McGarnacle]

Can't he identify himself as a pronoun?

Careful, sounds to me like you're discriminating against pronouns!

[Accatitippi]

Can't he identify himself as a pronoun?

I suspect this was not what my father expected when he said that one day I'd be somebody.

[Chris is me]

Can't he identify himself as a pronoun?

I guess there's no reason you couldn't if you really wanted to, but I think the confusion would be more trouble than it's worth. Bonus points if you identify as one pronoun but then use a different pronouns for yourself.

[Seprix]

Thanks, based Chris is me. I know you love your pronouns, but pronouns are not forced wins.  I don't want this topic derailed.

[Witherweaver]

Can't he identify himself as a pronoun?

I guess there's no reason you couldn't if you really wanted to, but I think the confusion would be more trouble than it's worth. Bonus points if you identify as one pronoun but then use a different pronouns for yourself.

So are you pro pronouns?

[drsteelhammer]

Can't he identify himself as a pronoun?

I guess there's no reason you couldn't if you really wanted to, but I think the confusion would be more trouble than it's worth. Bonus points if you identify as one pronoun but then use a different pronouns for yourself.

I identified myself more as an "eh" person anyway.

[Awaclus]

Can't he identify himself as a pronoun?

I guess there's no reason you couldn't if you really wanted to, but I think the confusion would be more trouble than it's worth. Bonus points if you identify as one pronoun but then use a different pronouns for yourself.

I identified myself more as an "eh" person anyway.

Do you kill aleins and doesn't afraid of anything?

[Chris is me]

Thanks, based Chris is me. I know you love your pronouns, but pronouns are not forced wins.  I don't want this topic derailed.

Then post another scenario!

[vsiewnar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxDPYnG6tP4 From around 13:00

Not too difficult though

[Seprix]

For reference

Pretty easy. Gain Duchy, trash Stables > Duchy, buy Duchy

Assuming no Rats trash by Transmogrify, Trash Fortress > Duchy, Butcher Duchy > Duchy, buy Duchy

[Titandrake]

Hey, I found a log that didn't crash the replayer. It's my turn. I have a forced win from here. Also not too hard, but important to keep in mind.

(I currently have 13 VP. My opponent has 21 VP. http://imgur.com/I1YYAUQ may be easier on the eyes, idk why it's blurring here.)

[Limetime]

Play workshop gaining silver, play worker's village*2, remodel gold into province, buy province

[Haddock]

Play workshop gaining silver, play worker's village*2, remodel gold into province, buy province

Lol.  I went a bit over-fancy; same thing but workshop for remodel, remodelling the gold and a province then buying a duchy for a 1-point win.

Your way's better

[Dingan]

Could I have won it here?

[Seprix]

No way in hell. There's no possible three-pile where you also win. You cannot get 4 Provinces either.

[Aleimon Thimble]

Ouch, you seem to be a coin short for piling the Provinces. Salvaging the Thief, playing Rogue and all your money gets you 8 different cards in play, so you can gain 2 Provinces with the Horns, and then you have $15... Salvaging Rogue instead of Thief would get a coin extra, but you lose the $2 from Rogue so you only have $14. A three-pile also seems impossible. I don't think it can be done.

The above might still be the correct play (buying Province-Duchy at the end) depending on how your opponent's deck is doing. I guess it's a mirror, so you're kinda playing for your opponent to dud anyway, so you might as well take a lead in the process.

[Seprix]

Ouch, you seem to be a coin short for piling the Provinces. Salvaging the Thief, playing Rogue and all your money gets you 8 different cards in play, so you can gain 2 Provinces with the Horns, and then you have $15... Salvaging Rogue instead of Thief would get a coin extra, but you lose the $2 from Rogue so you only have $14. A three-pile also seems impossible. I don't think it can be done.

The above might still be the correct play (buying Province-Duchy at the end) depending on how your opponent's deck is doing. I guess it's a mirror, so you're kinda playing for your opponent to dud anyway, so you might as well take a lead in the process.

Salvaging Thief and playing Rogue does nothing, since you also need the +Action to do such a thing.

[Aleimon Thimble]

Ouch, you seem to be a coin short for piling the Provinces. Salvaging the Thief, playing Rogue and all your money gets you 8 different cards in play, so you can gain 2 Provinces with the Horns, and then you have $15... Salvaging Rogue instead of Thief would get a coin extra, but you lose the $2 from Rogue so you only have $14. A three-pile also seems impossible. I don't think it can be done.

The above might still be the correct play (buying Province-Duchy at the end) depending on how your opponent's deck is doing. I guess it's a mirror, so you're kinda playing for your opponent to dud anyway, so you might as well take a lead in the process.

Salvaging Thief and playing Rogue does nothing, since you also need the +Action to do such a thing.

Right. Somehow I thought he had 2 Actions left. I guess you can get to that point by discarding Thief to Hamlet, but then you need to Salvage a Relic. It still gets you $14 so you can still buy Province-Duchy after gaining 2 Provinces.

[Seprix]

Ouch, you seem to be a coin short for piling the Provinces. Salvaging the Thief, playing Rogue and all your money gets you 8 different cards in play, so you can gain 2 Provinces with the Horns, and then you have $15... Salvaging Rogue instead of Thief would get a coin extra, but you lose the $2 from Rogue so you only have $14. A three-pile also seems impossible. I don't think it can be done.

The above might still be the correct play (buying Province-Duchy at the end) depending on how your opponent's deck is doing. I guess it's a mirror, so you're kinda playing for your opponent to dud anyway, so you might as well take a lead in the process.

Salvaging Thief and playing Rogue does nothing, since you also need the +Action to do such a thing.

Right. Somehow I thought he had 2 Actions left. I guess you can get to that point by discarding Thief to Hamlet, but then you need to Salvage a Relic. It still gets you $14 so you can still buy Province-Duchy after gaining 2 Provinces.

Correct. I thought I was going blind for not seeing a pileout. 

[Titandrake]

3 Province + Duchy looks safe here, unless your opponent's deck is really weird. That puts you at 33 VP to 17 VP, so they need Province + 3 Duchy + Estate to tie or Province + 4 Duchy to win. I don't see many lines where they can do Province + 4 Duchy, but can't do 3 Provinces + Duchy or 4 Provinces. They have 3 Horns and no way to gain Horns in the middle of their turn.

[Dingan]

How about here?



EDIT: Whoops, didn't realize there weren't victory point counters.  But with no green or purple cards gone from the supply (or Dame Josephine), the largest VP deficit I could have been down at the time was 3 (I don't think it was that large, but lets say it was).  In that case, could I have won?  Answer: I still think so, but not sure.

[traces Around]

You maybe could have gotten away with playing the Herald, but why bother?

If you do not, play Bridge Troll, play Messenger, Expand Herald to Bridge Troll, Copper to Duchy, play Copper, Messenger the remaining two Bridge Trolls, buy 3 Estates That gives 6 points, which can probably be improved upon if one doesn't mess around as much.

Edit: -1 coin token

[Dingan]

Could I have won here?  I believe at this point it was... me: 1 Province, 0 Estates, 1 Curse -- opponent: 0 Provinces, 2 Estates, 2 Curses.

[Limetime]

Could I have won here?  I believe at this point it was... me: 1 Province, 0 Estates, 1 Curse -- opponent: 0 Provinces, 2 Estates, 2 Curses.

YeahDiscard feast, stonemason feast into two stonemasons, play bm not buying anything Play coin token stonemason overpay two, stonemason overpay 2

[Mic Qsenoch]

How about here?

EDIT: Whoops, didn't realize there weren't victory point counters.  But with no green or purple cards gone from the supply (or Dame Josephine), the largest VP deficit I could have been down at the time was 3 (I don't think it was that large, but lets say it was).  In that case, could I have won?  Answer: I still think so, but not sure.

Besides tracer's answer, can also Expand Troll -> Province, Expand Herald -> Troll, Play Messenger and buy Messenger (giving Trolls).

[tim17]

Here's one I came across IRL today.  I thought there should be a forced win, but didn't spot one.

My hand: silver, 6 charms, stonemason, villa, city quarter

In play: 1/2 city (2 city quarters), royal blacksmith, market, 2 bakers, remodel

Deck: 1 copper

Discard: Nothing

I have 7 coin tokens

Supply:

Province: 8
Duchy: 8
Estate: 7
Curse: 10

Copper: a lot
Silver: a lot
Gold: a lot

Overlord: 9
Royal Blacksmith: 6
City Quarter: 5
Charm: 2
Market: 9
Baker: 6
Bureaucrat: 10
Villa: 5
Remodel: 4
Stonemason: 6

Wedding
Aqueduct with 2 VP on it

My opponent leads 4-0

[Mic Qsenoch]

Here's one I came across IRL today.  I thought there should be a forced win, but didn't spot one.

Here's one that doesn't use Charm's special ability at all:

Play all Charms for $2 +buy, play Silver, use all 7 tokens ($22 total)
Bunch of Stonemason overpays:
  Stonemason (for 2 more Stonemasons) $4
  Stonemason (for 2 Villas) $6 - go right back to buy phase
  Stonemason (for 2 Villas) $6 - go right back to buy phase
  Stonemason (for Villa + Remodel) $6 (no money left)

Should have 6 Actions (from the Villas) now if I understand the game state right. Stonemasons and Villas are gone.

Play City Quarter and draw 7 cards. Those will be the Copper and either 6 Stonemasons or 5 Stonemasons 1 Remodel.

Play Stonemasons and trash Villas until the Estates are empty.

[tim17]

Here's one I came across IRL today.  I thought there should be a forced win, but didn't spot one.

Here's one that doesn't use Charm's special ability at all:

Play all Charms for $2 +buy, play Silver, use all 7 tokens ($22 total)
Bunch of Stonemason overpays:
  Stonemason (for 2 more Stonemasons) $4
  Stonemason (for 2 Villas) $6 - go right back to buy phase
  Stonemason (for 2 Villas) $6 - go right back to buy phase
  Stonemason (for Villa + Remodel) $6 (no money left)

Should have 6 Actions (from the Villas) now if I understand the game state right. Stonemasons and Villas are gone.

Play City Quarter and draw 7 cards. Those will be the Copper and either 6 Stonemasons or 5 Stonemasons 1 Remodel.

Play Stonemasons and trash Villas until the Estates are empty.

Yep, I'm sure there were a bunch.  When I played this I didn't have all the time in the world and missed stonemason stuff.  I found one afterwards that used the charms to pile the bakers and then pile the villas using stonemason stuff and get the last charm with a duchy for a 1 point win.  Yours seems easier to spot though.

[Titandrake]

From a league game.

Maximize the number of points you can guarantee ending the game with. I can get to 22 VP.

(If you were looking at this before, there was a mistake that was fixed.)

[aku_chi]

From a league game.

Maximize the number of points you can guarantee ending the game with. I can get to 22 VP.

Isn't it possible to get 24 VP?

Play University x3, gain Butcher x3.  Have 4 actions.
Play Apprentice trashing Potion, Draw Apprentice, Laboratory, Potion, and Butcher.
Play Laboratory, draw Butcher x2.
Play Butcher, trash Vineyard, gain Vineyard.
Play Butcher, trash Vineyard, gain Vineyard.
Play Butcher, trash Butcher, gain Province.
Play Butcher, trash Apprentice, gain Province.
Play Potion, buy Vineyard.

End with Province x2, Vineyard x3 w 12 actions = 24 VP.

[Chris is me]

From a league game.

Maximize the number of points you can guarantee ending the game with. I can get to 22 VP.

Isn't it possible to get 24 VP?

Play University x3, gain Butcher x3.  Have 4 actions.
Play Apprentice trashing Potion, Draw Apprentice, Laboratory, Potion, and Butcher.
Play Laboratory, draw Butcher x2.
Play Butcher, trash Vineyard, gain Vineyard.
Play Butcher, trash Vineyard, gain Vineyard.
Play Butcher, trash Butcher, gain Province.
Play Butcher, trash Apprentice, gain Province.
Play Potion, buy Vineyard.

End with Province x2, Vineyard x3 w 12 actions = 24 VP.

The only tweak is you want to Apprentice Potion after the first Uni gain to guarantee the Lab draw, then you use the other 2 Uni, then you play the Lab.

Also this loss still hurts

How did you get the Isotropic interface for our game?

[BlackHole]

From a league game.

Maximize the number of points you can guarantee ending the game with. I can get to 22 VP.

Isn't it possible to get 24 VP?

Play University x3, gain Butcher x3.  Have 4 actions.
Play Apprentice trashing Potion, Draw Apprentice, Laboratory, Potion, and Butcher.
Play Laboratory, draw Butcher x2.
Play Butcher, trash Vineyard, gain Vineyard.
Play Butcher, trash Vineyard, gain Vineyard.
Play Butcher, trash Butcher, gain Province.
Play Butcher, trash Apprentice, gain Province.
Play Potion, buy Vineyard.

End with Province x2, Vineyard x3 w 12 actions = 24 VP.

The only tweak is you want to Apprentice Potion after the first Uni gain to guarantee the Lab draw, then you use the other 2 Uni, then you play the Lab.

You dont have to do that in this order since lab is in his draw and University doesnt topdeck

[Titandrake]

How did you get the Isotropic interface for our game?

I pasted the plaintext log link into http://goko-replay.herokuapp.com/.

I abandoned it after Guilds so it doesn't work for most logs, but luckily it worked for this one.

@aku_chi: nice that's better than mine. My solution was to play all but 1 University, Butcher a University into Vineyard, then a Vineyard into Vineyard, then a Copper into Province, then buy the 3rd Vineyard.

[Dingan]

How bout here?  My opponent had 2 Duchies and 1 Estate; I had no green.  I don't remember who went first.



Answer: Yes (I think) -- gain Moneylender w/ University, play WT (drawing nothing), play other WT, draw Moneylender, play Moneylender-Copper, gain 2 HoP's with 2 HoP's, gain 2 Duchies w/ 2 other HoP's, buy 2 Estates, win by 1 VP.

[JW]

Answer: Yes (I think) -- gain Moneylender w/ University, play WT (drawing nothing), play other WT, draw Moneylender, play Moneylender-Copper, gain 2 HoP's with 2 HoP's, gain 2 Duchies w/ 2 other HoP's, buy 2 Estates, win by 1 VP.

Edit: this is wrong as Dingan mentions! Oops!

Gain Ratcatcher, then you can gain 2 Provinces with your 2 HoPs instead of Duchies because you still have the Copper and you can still buy a single Estate. This assumes that I can count.

[Dingan]

Answer: Yes (I think) -- gain Moneylender w/ University, play WT (drawing nothing), play other WT, draw Moneylender, play Moneylender-Copper, gain 2 HoP's with 2 HoP's, gain 2 Duchies w/ 2 other HoP's, buy 2 Estates, win by 1 VP.

Gain Ratcatcher, then you can gain 2 Provinces with your 2 HoPs instead of Duchies because you still have the Copper and you can still buy a single Estate. This assumes that I can count.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Reserve cards do not count as "in play" when they're played -- they do when they're called.  And therefore don't contribute to HoP.  So depending on what you drew with the RCer, you might only have 7 uniques in play (in which case I wouldn't be guaranteed a win).

[BlackHole]

Answer: Yes (I think) -- gain Moneylender w/ University, play WT (drawing nothing), play other WT, draw Moneylender, play Moneylender-Copper, gain 2 HoP's with 2 HoP's, gain 2 Duchies w/ 2 other HoP's, buy 2 Estates, win by 1 VP.

Gain Ratcatcher, then you can gain 2 Provinces with your 2 HoPs instead of Duchies because you still have the Copper and you can still buy a single Estate. This assumes that I can count.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Reserve cards do not count as "in play" when they're played -- they do when they're called.  And therefore don't contribute to HoP.  So depending on what you drew with the RCer, you might only have 7 uniques in play (in which case I wouldn't be guaranteed a win).

Just use the 2nd Edition Moneylender and don't trash the copper

[vsiewnar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQPsVIhmk9c

from about 10:30 or so (the start of my last turn). Can you find the winning line (you probably can)?

My deck was Copper, Ruined Market, Death Cart, Counterfeit, Count, Vagrant, Fortress(x4), Hunting Grounds(x2), Mercenary(x2).

[aku_chi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQPsVIhmk9c

from about 10:30 or so (the start of my last turn). Can you find the winning line (you probably can)?

My deck was Copper, Ruined Market, Death Cart, Counterfeit, Count, Vagrant, Fortress(x4), Hunting Grounds(x2), Mercenary(x2).

Tricky one.

On that last turn, when you had 5 cards remaining in your deck, you could have trashed two Fortresses with Mercenary.  Play two Fortresses.  Either Vagrant is the bottom card in your deck (as was the case), or you can play Vagrant to draw your last card.  You have three actions remaining, which you can use to play Death Cart, trashing Hunting Grounds to gain three more Estates; and Ruined Market.  You can then play Counterfeit.  You have 10 coins and 3 buys, which is enough to buy Death Cart (emptying the Ruins), and the last two Estates.

[Dingan]

[singletee]

Lost City to draw HoP/WV

Throne Artisan, gaining and topdecking 2 Duchies

Play treasures, trashing 2 HoPs for 2 Provinces

Buy Duchy

31-25

[Dingan]

[LaLight]

Trash 3 curses (8-8), gain 3 villages with ws, buy a village and estate

[Jacob marley]

Trash 3 curses (8-8), gain 3 villages with ws, buy a ws and estate

I think you mean buy village and estate?

[LaLight]

Trash 3 curses (8-8), gain 3 villages with ws, buy a ws and estate

I think you mean buy village and estate?

Ah, yes, fixed.

[Dingan]

I won on the following turn after this one, but could I have ended it here?  (I don't think so, but not sure)

[aku_chi]

I believe it's possible.

Gain Fortress, topdeck whatever.
Play Fortress - draw whatever
Play Stonemason - trashing Fortress - gaining Stonemason x2
Play Fortress - draw Stonemason
Play Stonemason - trashing Fortress - gaining Stonemason x2
Play Fortress - draw Stonemason
Play Stonemason - trashing Transmogrify - gaining Stonemason x2
Pay Silver x2 - buy Fortress

I think there are also some lines to gain points, too.  But, I'm not in the mood for extra credit.

[werothegreat]

Gain Stonemason, topdeck Province (SM 5).
Play Fortress, draw Province.
Play Stonemason, trash Apprentice, gain 2 Fortresses into hand.  (F 0, 2 empty piles)
Play Stonemason, trash Fortress, gain 2 Stonemasons.  (SM 3)
Play Treasures, buy Stonemason, overpay by 2, gain 2 Stonemasons. (SM 0, 3 empty piles)
You win!

[Mic Qsenoch]

You can 4 pile by gaining Village off Artisan and doing combinations of Stone/Village and Stone/Stone gains and drawing, making sure to use Apprentice at some time when it can draw 2-3 cards, then overpaying to get the last 2 Fortresses. It's more complicated to diagram out since there are different cases depending on whether you draw Village or Stonemason first but all the cases work. You can get at least 1 Estate along the way, maybe 3 is possible with certain draws.

I tried to find an ending that emptied the Transmogs but didn't see one.

[Witherweaver]

I won on the following turn after this one, but could I have ended it here?  (I don't think so, but not sure)

[Dingan]

Could I have won here?  I believe there was just the 1 Copper in my discard pile.  I don't think I could have.

EDIT: What about if I still had my Hunting Grounds in hand (I had to play it earlier because it was my only draw card, but I think I could have avoided playing it had I drawn my Patrol earlier)?

[aku_chi]

Could I have won here?  I believe there was just the 1 Copper in my discard pile.  I don't think I could have.

I agree that it is impossible.  You don't have enough gains.  You could Forge a Sage (or something) into the last Farmers' Market to get an additional buy, but the only pile you'd have enough buys to empty is the Fortune pile, which you have insufficient money to empty.  Having a Hunting Grounds doesn't help, because you'd have to use the Forge on that to get the Estates, and then you still need 5 buys to empty piles, and you only have 3.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Cross linking this relevant new ShuffleIT feature announcement:

http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=1495.msg4903#msg4903

There is a can you win puzzle at the bottom of the post.

[aku_chi]

It's so hard! 

[Titandrake]

Cross linking this relevant new ShuffleIT feature announcement:

http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=1495.msg4903#msg4903

There is a can you win puzzle at the bottom of the post.

It looks like it only works if you own the cards that were used in that game, btw.

[aku_chi]

I've got one of moderate difficulty.  If you want to play it out:
Game Id: 3381502
Decision: 198

Rabid's last turn was really complicated.  For extra credit, you can roll back even further and see if you can end it on his turn!

[Dylan32]

Procession: Butcher. Trash Butcher+ 3 coin tokens for province. Trash Loan + 3 coin tokens into hunting grounds.  Trash the played butcher and gain hunting grounds. 2 piles empty, 26 - 20.  Play Mountebank, curses empty.  Buy province, 26-25 win.

[Rabid]

I've tried a few times, still can't win as Rabid.
If you don't have 2 x curse in hand it is fairly easy.
I keep coming up 1 gain or 1 point short.

[singletee]

In one of sangatsu's videos I found this endgame scenario. sangatsu's discard pile contains 3 Coppers. Find a guaranteed win.

[Awaclus]

In one of sangatsu's videos I found this endgame scenario. Find a guaranteed win.

Presumably all the Curses are in the trash (i.e. the opponent is guaranteed to not have one in hand)?

[singletee]

Presumably all the Curses are in the trash (i.e. the opponent is guaranteed to not have one in hand)?

In the game the opponent didn't have one in hand, but there is a guaranteed win even if they do.

[singletee]

I mistakenly left off a useful piece of info; added now.

[Awaclus]

I was just about to ask about that. Got it by the way.

[O]

I don't believe the discard is necessary at all:

Remake 2x silver -> 2x-remake play Mountebanke, Silver, Silver, with 20$ and 4 buys go Remake, Royal Blacksmith, Royal Blacksmith, Annex

[singletee]

I don't believe the discard is necessary at all:

Remake 2x silver -> 2x-remake play Mountebanke, Silver, Silver, with 20$ and 4 buys go Remake, Royal Blacksmith, Royal Blacksmith, Annex

You have 8 debt to pay off before you buy anything.

[werothegreat]

There are couple ways to do this, but I think I like this best:

Play Remake, trash two Silvers for a Remake and a Talisman.
Play Royal Blacksmith, effectively draw Remake and Talisman.
Play Mountebank, assume opponent has Curse in hand.
Play 2 Silvers, and a Talisman, pay off 8 debt leaving you with $13 and 8 buys.
Buy 4 Curses, gaining 7 - 4 Buys left.  You are at -7VP.
Buy a Remake, gaining 2.  $9 and 3 Buys left, and 3 piles are empty.
Buy a Province and an Annex, and end the game with 2VP to your opponent's 0VP.

[O]

I don't believe the discard is necessary at all:

Remake 2x silver -> 2x-remake play Mountebanke, Silver, Silver, with 20$ and 4 buys go Remake, Royal Blacksmith, Royal Blacksmith, Annex

You have 8 debt to pay off before you buy anything.

ah, that's what i didn't see.

[Deadlock39]

So am I missing something? Those solutions seem complicated.

Remake 2 Silvers into Remake.
Draw them with RB.
Remake Silver into the last Remake and Remake into Duchy.
Play Silver for a total of $16, to pay of the debt, buy RB, pay off debt and buy the last RB.

You have plenty of actions/buys to play Mountebank and buy an Estate also, but don't need to.

[tim17]

How do you know he won't react to the mountebank by discarding a curse?

Procession: Butcher. Trash Butcher+ 3 coin tokens for province. Trash Loan + 3 coin tokens into hunting grounds.  Trash the played butcher and gain hunting grounds. 2 piles empty, 26 - 20.  Play Mountebank, curses empty.  Buy province, 26-25 win.

[werothegreat]

So am I missing something? Those solutions seem complicated.

[Deadlock39]

Here is one I played tonight



Find a forced win this turn.

I can't get a copy of the game to load perfectly.
You can either reload and play game #4228902 from the last decision and then play one Lab to get to the state pictured,
or load the original game #4227616 at decision 213. In either case sit in Deadlock's position of course.

My solution is in #4227616 I'm not up to speed on any way to look at the log, but you can load at the last decision I guess?

[liopoil]

TR-Remodel estate into remodel, lab into remodel
Lab, draw 2 remodels
TR-remodel gold into province, lab into gold
Lab, draw gold and province
TR-remodel gold into province, province into province
Play festivals, buy the last province
Win 24-21 with room to spare
Seriously how did you end up with 9 throne rooms and 9 labs
Kind of impossible to lose at that point

[gloures]

Here is one I played tonight



Find a forced win this turn.

I can't get a copy of the game to load perfectly.
You can either reload and play game #4228902 from the last decision and then play one Lab to get to the state pictured,
or load the original game #4227616 at decision 213. In either case sit in Deadlock's position of course.

My solution is in #4227616 I'm not up to speed on any way to look at the log, but you can load at the last decision I guess?

Play TR-TR-TR, throning two Festivals and a Remodel,
            Remodel Two Labs into Festivals then draw then both with another Lab
            Play all five remaining Festivals
            You will have a total of 21 coins and 10 buys (from Gold and playing Festival 9 times) and 30 cards in the deck
            Buy the last Festival, 4 Gardens and 5 coppers, to reach a total of 23 points

You can do better if you gain Artisans instead of Festivals with Remodel (which also allows you to win even without Gardens), but the solution is slightly longer...

[Titandrake]

Yeah a lot of lines work here, although the one I came up with is a lot more complicated than it needs to be.


TR-Remodel, Gold --> Province and Lab --> Artisan
Play Lab
TR-Artisan, gain Duchy + Remodel, topdeck Estate + Duchy
TR-Remodel, trash 2 Provinces --> 2 Provinces
Play 5 Festivals
Buy Province + Estate + 4 Copper

2 Province + Duchy + Estate gained = +16 points which puts you to 23 VP.

[gloures]

An alternative way to play my last turn in one of my league matches against Lalight would lead to this:





The two cards in the deck are a Giant and a Stonemason, and the Magpie is the only card in the discard. Note that there´s also a -1 coin token from opponent´s Bridge Troll that is not showing...

[JacquesTheBard]

An alternative way to play my last turn in one of my league matches against Lalight would lead to this:





The two cards in the deck are a Giant and a Stonemason, and the Magpie is the only card in the discard. Note that there´s also a -1 coin token from opponent´s Bridge Troll that is not showing...

With that final bit of information, here's what I've come up with:

Play Magpie, draw Giant, gain Magpie.
Hand is now Bridge Troll, Stonemason x2, Giant x2, Copper x2, and Silver. Stonemason both giants away to gain 4 Magpies.

Play Bridge Troll. Play Silver and Coppers for $3 total (due to -coin token). Buy Stonemason and overpay by 1, gaining the other Stonemason and a Chapel. Buy Estate.

Without the -coin token, we could've done another solution in which we played Stonemason on the silver and played the giants for $. This works too, though.

[JacquesTheBard]

Procession: Butcher. Trash Butcher+ 3 coin tokens for province. Trash Loan + 3 coin tokens into hunting grounds.  Trash the played butcher and gain hunting grounds. 2 piles empty, 26 - 20.  Play Mountebank, curses empty.  Buy province, 26-25 win.

I feel bad responding to a post from so far back, but the Mountebank might not actually distribute the curse if the opponent can block it. So...
Procession on Butcher. Trash Province into Province and Mountebank into Province. Two Provinces in the Supply,
 and 3 coin tokens left. Play the final Butcher and spend 5 coin tokens to convert Loan into Province. With 4 Coppers, 2 Loans,
 and 2 pre-existing coins, we can buy the last province and win.

[Deadlock39]

Seriously how did you end up with 9 throne rooms and 9 labs
Kind of impossible to lose at that point

The game was against a friend I'm attempting to teach. I've yet to get him to prioritize trashing first, so we have a way to go.

It was for sure "kind of impossible" to lose at that point, but I thought the win on that turn was a bit tricky. Per the responses here, not quite as tricky as I thought. My line matched yours pretty closely.

[Awaclus]

This is not very difficult to solve (I solved it on the fly in the actual game), but it's pretty interesting and especially since my opponent could have easily prevented this had he thought of it so it's also an opportunity to learn from his mistake so that you won't repeat it.

Game Id: 5103008, decision index: 321 (you're supposed to be Awaclus)

Here's the solution: http://windominion.com/s34LJIo

[aku_chi]

How could I have won here?



And feel free to watch how the match ultimately played out.  Nobody in the chat spotted this potential turn 11 pileout, but I also missed a more obvious pileout on turn 12.  Oops.

Code: [Select]

https://youtu.be/0kHzM0-AKtM?t=2183

[Awaclus]

How could I have won here?



And feel free to watch how the match ultimately played out.  Nobody in the chat spotted this potential turn 11 pileout, but I also missed a more obvious pileout on turn 12.  Oops.

Code: [Select]

https://youtu.be/0kHzM0-AKtM?t=2183

Gain Opulent Castle with Small Castle, Counterfeit the Counterfeit, buy Sprawling Castle for 3 Estates and buy the remaining 5 Estates.

Not a trivial pileout, that's for sure.

[Skumpy]

Or just Small the Haunted, Advance the Small, buy the last 2 castles

Edit: Never mind, that don't work. You can't advance stuff in play. Awaclus wins.

[Titandrake]

The discard pile is 1 Horn of Plenty, nothing else. I went first, so you need at least 2 VP to win.

[navical]

Play Copper, Lighthouse, Villa = $12,  5 Buys.
Buy Menagerie and Villa, play Villa = $6, 4 Buys.
Play Steward, drawing HoP and Menagerie.
Play 3x HoP for Hoard, Hoard, and Menagerie. Buy Villa, play Villa = $3, 4 Buys.
Play Menagerie, drawing Hoard, Hoard, Menagerie.
Play Hoard, Hoard = $7, 4 Buys.
Buy Estate, gaining 2x Gold. Buy Villa, play Villa. $2, 3 Buys.
Play Menagerie, drawing Gold, Gold, Estate. Play 2x Gold. $8, 3 Buys
Buy Villa, play Villa. $5, 3 Buys.
Buy Menagerie, Estate, gaining 2x Gold. $0, 1 Buy.

Horns of Plenty, Menageries and Villas are empty, you have 2 points. You win!

[Deadlock39]

That is impressive...
The win Singletee found in chat during the game  was just going to the buy phase, buy a Copper, HoP gain Villa, then draw the last HoP and Copper with Steward. That leaves you enough to pile Villa/Menagerie and buy 2 Estates

[Shvegait]

That is impressive...
The win Singletee found in chat during the game  was just going to the buy phase, buy a Copper, HoP gain Villa, then draw the last HoP and Copper with Steward. That leaves you enough to pile Villa/Menagerie and buy 2 Estates

Here's a method that uses $1 less. Suppose you don't have the Lighthouse:

Play Copper, Villa = $11, 5 Buys
Buy 2x Menagerie, 1x Villa = $1, 2 Buys
Play Villa = $2, 3 Buys
Play Steward for +2 Cards. You drew at least one Menagerie. You also drew either Menagerie or HoP (it won't matter, you'll draw the other card before you need either one, and you won't have duplicates in your hand either way).
Play 2 HoPs from your starting hand, first for Hoard, then Villa
Play Villa = $3, 4 Buys
Play Menagerie (you have at most one HoP in your hand, at most one Menagerie, and no other duplicates). You draw the Menagerie/HoP you didn't draw the first time and the Hoard.
Play Hoard = $5, 4 Buys
Play HoP, gaining Villa
Play Villa = $6, 5 Buys
Buy Estate, gaining also a Gold = $4, 4 Buys
Buy Copper = $4, 3 Buys
Buy Villa = $0, 2 Buys
Play Villa = $1, 3 Buys
Play Menagerie, drawing Estate, Copper, Gold
Play Gold and Copper = $5, 3 Buys
Buy Menagerie, and Estate (gain a Gold also) = $0, 1 Buy, 2 VP, Villas, Menageries, HoPs empty

The key is that using HoP to gain Villa is great because it gives you +$1, but you can't play HoP in the same buy phase after you buy another card. That's why the 2 Menageries have to be bought up front and there's only room to buy 1 Copper and not 2. But I suspect there's an even more efficient solution out there.


Improvement:

This change gets you to 6 VP, also without Lighthouse. Doesn't need Hoard.
Similar to above, but just use the 1st HoP to gain a Province instead of Hoard; skip buying any Estates; later, buy 2 Coppers (or 3, but this doesn't accomplish anything) when you previously bought only 1 (the last Menagerie will draw all the Coppers since you aren't picking up any Estates or Golds). This lets you afford the 3rd Menagerie at the last step. You can't afford any Estates.

[aku_chi]

It may not look like it, but I can end the game here.  How do I do it?  How do I maximize points?  Try it out with Game #7548391, Decision 141.



The maximum I've managed to get is 64 total VP.

[Jfrisch]

Kings court kings court

expand fortress, gaining a kings courtm an expand, and a gear,

then use gear to draw all of them iterating (you don't need to gear every turn), you can gain close to infinite points by also gaining bishops and eventually bishoping your fortresses as much as you can.

[Dingan]

Pulled this one out of the hat



EDIT: I think this was the first Fountain game where I went 7 Coppers -> 0 Coppers -> 10 Coppers

[ThetaSigma12]

Play Mint gaining Copper, call Royal Carriage x3 to gain 3 more Coppers.
Play Merchants and Village to draw the 4 coppers.
Play Catapult trashing Minstrel to give a Curse, and Nomad Camp.
Buy Copper + Dominate bringing it to 30/42
Play the 6 HoP to gain 6 Duchies, winning 48/42.

[Seprix]

It may not look like it, but I can end the game here.  How do I do it?  How do I maximize points?  Try it out with Game #7548391, Decision 141.

The maximum I've managed to get is 64 total VP.

Weirdly enough, I cannot access that gamestate. I can play the game but Decision 141 does not work in the slightest, it infinitely loads 

[Seprix]

This is a slightly harder one. Put on your thinking caps.

[faust]

Play Stonemason trashing Silver for 2 Stonemasons. This guarantees 2 cards in your discard.
Play 2 Mills, discarding Estate/Random card (removing the -1$ token) you drew and Copper/random card you drew.
Play 2 Copper for $5 total.
Buy Messenger gaining Bridge Troll (opponent gains Bridge Troll).
Buy SM overpaying 1$ for 2 extra SMs.

[Awaclus]

You could alternatively

play the Mill to draw the Bridge Troll, Stonemason the Bridge Troll into two Wandering Minstrels, play the other Mill to draw a WM and discard WM+Estate for $2, then you can buy a Messenger to empty the Bridge Trolls and a WM to empty the WMs.

[navical]

Play Mill to draw Bridge Troll, play Stonemason trashing Bridge Troll for Wandering Minstrel and Stonemason, play Mill discarding Estate + drawn card to get you to $1, play 3 Copper and 1 Silver to get you to $6.
Buy Stonemason overpaying 3 for 2 Wandering Minstrels, Stonemason overpaying 1 for 2 Stonemasons.

[Seprix]

You could alternatively

play the Mill to draw the Bridge Troll, Stonemason the Bridge Troll into two Wandering Minstrels, play the other Mill to draw a WM and discard WM+Estate for $2, then you can buy a Messenger to empty the Bridge Trolls and a WM to empty the WMs.

Play Mill to draw Bridge Troll, play Stonemason trashing Bridge Troll for Wandering Minstrel and Stonemason, play Mill discarding Estate + drawn card to get you to $1, play 3 Copper and 1 Silver to get you to $6.
Buy Stonemason overpaying 3 for 2 Wandering Minstrels, Stonemason overpaying 1 for 2 Stonemasons.

Drawing the Bridge Troll is not guaranteed and thus not a solution. I apologize, there's way more cards than one in the discard.

[Dingan]

So here's something. Of the 23 Kingdoms posted in this topic, below are the cards or events that showed up most frequently in them.

Card/Event	Number of Kingdoms
Stonemason	6
Village	6
Moneylender	5
Horn of Plenty	5
Remodel	4
Mountebank	4
Magpie	4
Laboratory	4
Artisan	4
Smithy	3
Poacher	3
Market	3
Lost Arts	3
Fortress	3
Festival	3
Expand	3
Chapel	3
Butcher	3
Bridge Troll	3
Ball	3
37 other cards/events	2
103 other cards/events	1

I didn't include Landmarks (which certainly affect endgame scenarios), cus uhh just didn't want to.
The thread was made before Nocturne and Empires, and even game logs from way long ago were posted.
Several games were Base-only or heavily-Base, which might explain Village, Moneylender, etc.

==> My main takeaway:
Stonemason and HoP are the pile kings and make endgame scenarios difficult (or, rather, make game worthy of posting here).

[jonaskoelker]

It's my turn. I have a forced win from here.

Workshop a Silver. Draw it with 2xWorker's Village. Remodel Gold into Province, play 4xSilver, buy the last Province, win 25-21.

Here's a forced win:

[navical]

Play FV. Governor remodel Copper->CSM, topdecking with Watchtower. Hand is WT-WT-Gold-Prov-Bishop, so playing WT draws CSM. You still have an action, so play CSM. You have 3 buys, plenty of coins to buy 3 CSMs to pile them out, and a points lead.

[Titandrake]

Here's a neat one from a match I played 11 days ago.



There's actually a lot of leeway here, but you can guarantee a win even if you only produce enough money to buy 2 Provinces.

Your last 2 cards aren't necessary - assume they're blank.

[navical]

Observe that LR currently has the only Spoils not in the Spoils pile.

Stonemason Gold -> 2x Bandit Camp.
Play City Quarter to draw everything.
Play 2x Bandit Camp, gaining 2 Spoils.
Play 5x Forager trashing Graverobber, Wishing Well, City Quarter, 2x Copper = $20.
Play 3x Gold, 1x Copper, 2x Treasure Trove, gaining 2x Gold, 2x Copper = $34.
Pay off debt, $31. Buy 2x Province, 3x Duchy.

You have as many Golds and Coppers as you started with, and 2 more Spoils; that means LR is on at most 43 points, while you have at least 21 + 21 + 5 = 47 points.

You can do better than this by counting Keep points on other Treasures (how much better depends on exactly what's in your draw pile) but all that matters is the win

[aku_chi]

I'm having a difficult time making sense of the point totals.  My best guess is that your opponent has 5 Provinces, 20 Keep points, and is miserable; and you have one Province and 15 Keep points.  There are 5 treasures, which means that two of them are tied.  Your opponent leads in Spoils 4-0.  Your opponent has the only Silver.  You're tied in two of: Treasure Troves, Coppers, and Golds and are winning the other.  I'll assume you need to gain one of each to win all the Keep points.  With these assumptions, it's possible to win without drawing any more cards.

Use Graverobber to gain Treasure Trove from the trash to give the opponent -5 VP.
Use Stonemason to trash Gold and gain 2 Silvers (winning the Silver split, giving your opponent -5 VP and you +5 VP).
Play 5 Foragers trashing 2 City Quarters, a Wishing Well, and 2 Coppers for $20 and +5 buys.
Play two Treasure Troves to get $4 and gain two Copper and two Golds (winning the Gold split and giving the opponent -5 VP).
Play 3 Golds and a Copper for $10.
Pay off 3 Debt and have $31 and 6 buys.  Buy 2 Provinces and 2+ Coppers (winning the Copper split and giving the opponent -5 VP).  You could also buy two Duchies, but it's unnecessary.

At the end:
Your opponent has 5 Provinces, 5 Keep points, and is miserable: 33 VP
You have 3 Provinces, 0-2 Duchies, 20 Keep points: 38-44 VP

[michaeljb]

I'm having a difficult time making sense of the point totals.  My best guess is that your opponent has 5 Provinces, 20 Keep points, and is miserable; and you have one Province and 15 Keep points.  There are 5 treasures, which means that two of them are tied.  Your opponent leads in Spoils 4-0.  Your opponent has the only Silver.  You're tied in two of: Treasure Troves, Coppers, and Golds and are winning the other.  I'll assume you need to gain one of each to win all the Keep points.  With these assumptions, it's possible to win without drawing any more cards.

I'm also using these assumptions, but my solution went a different direction.


Play Stonemason; Gold (net: -1 Gold) --> Graverobber, Stonemason
Play City Quarter, drawing Province, "blank", Graverobber, Stonemason
Play Stonemason; Gold (net: -2 Gold) --> Graverobber, Graverobber
Play City Quarter, drawing Graverobber, Graverobber
Play Graverobber; Graverobber -> Province
Play Graverobber; Graverobber -> Province
Play 4 Foragers, trashing Wishing Well, Copper (net: -1 Copper), Forager, "Blank", for +$16, +4 Buys

Play 2 Golds, 2 Coppers, 2 Treasure Troves for +$12, gaining 2 Golds+Coppers (net: 0 Gold, +1 Copper)

$28, 5 Buys
pay off 3D
$25, 5 Buys

Buys:
Silver, Silver (net: +2)
Gold (net: +1)
Treasure Trove (net: +1)
Duchy

Now you have all the Keep points for Copper, Silver, Gold, Treasure Trove; net +5 VP for you, -15 VP for opponent

Final scores:
21 + 5 + 12 (Provinces) + 3 (Duchy) = 41
48 - 15 = 33


(Edit) Better solution (by which I mean higher score):


play Stonemason; Gold -> Graverobber, Treasure Trove (net treasures: Gold -1, Treasure Trove +1)
play City Quarter, drawing Province, "blank", Graverobber, Trove
play Graverobber; Graverobber -> Province
play 5 Foragers; trash "blank", Wishing Well, City Quarter, 2 Coppers, for +$20, +5 Buys (net Copper -2)
play 3 Gold, 1 Copper for +$10
play 3 Treasure Troves for +$6, gaining 3 Golds and Coppers (net: Gold +2, Treasure Trove +1, Copper +1)
$36, 6 Buys
pay 3D
$33, 6 Buys:
2 Silvers
1 Province
3 Duchies

same Keep swing as above solution, but 2 more Duchies:
21 + 5 + 12 + 9 = 47
48 - 15 = 33

final score: 47-33

[Cave-o-sapien]

Hey, I remember that game!

[Titandrake]

Here's what I did in the original game.


Down by 27 VP. Two Provinces is 12 VP. 15 VP from Keep + any extra VP is enough for the win.

Currently have 0 Silvers to 1 Silver, and 2 Treasure Troves to 2 Treasure Troves. I didn't bother tracking the Copper or Gold splits, because Treasure Trove really makes those confusing. The first 2 Silver gains are each worth 5 VP (first gains me 5 VP, 2nd makes them lose 5 VP). The first Treasure Trove gain is worth 5 VP. If I gain 2x Silver and 1x Treasure Trove, that's the 15 Keep VP I need.

I first need to get more gains --> Stonemason WW into 2 Stonemason.
Graverobber gains Silver.
Play City Quarter, draw rest of deck.
Stonemason Gold --> Treasure Trove + Silver.
That's all the treasures I need, and after playing Treasure Trove I'm going to have lots more Gold so I don't need to worry about Gold count --> Stonemason Gold --> 2x Duchy to get the extra VP needed to win.
City Quarter draws gained Treasures.

I will play 3 Treasure Troves this turn, which will gain 3 Copper. So I can trash up to 3 Copper without losing VP from Keep from the Copper split.
3x Forager trash 3 Copper.
4th Forager trashes 5th Forager.

That leaves plenty of money to buy the last 2 Provinces.

[jonaskoelker]

At 19:40, Adam is revealing Wandering Minstrel, Colony and Spice Merchant to a Wandering Minstrel. Remaining in his deck are Platinum, Gold and Peddler. Plan out the rest of his turn such that he wins the game. The payload part of Adam's previous turn, from 17:00 to 17:30, might provide a hint if you're stuck on one particular aspect. Watching from 19:40 onward will give a big hint.

(My solution is available as a youtube comment.)

[Dingan]

EDIT: Ah, just realized there's a pretty simple win here. But I did it the complicated way.

[Titandrake]

I'm confused how you have $9 here with 7 Grand Markets and nothing in the discard. I guess you bought Fleet as the first buy?

Given that you have the Outpost turn coming up, this is just 3 Urchin this turn, then 7 GM + Poor House = 8 buys and $16 for Estate pileout on the Outpost turn. I suppose you could also pile Poor Houses on the Outpost turn then buy an Estate on the Fleet turn, since you're guaranteed to draw at least 1 Poor House or GM on that turn.

[Dingan]

I may have thought it was more interesting than it actually was, as I didn't see the Estate pileout and it was my first time playing with Fleet