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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards  (Read 37861 times)

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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« on: November 11, 2015, 08:08:33 am »
+20

The Best Cards - Part 1/6

60+ votes for Adventures cards, 86+ votes for the rest.

#66 =0 Scout (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 3.6% ▼0.9pp / Unweighted Average: 5.7% / Median: 0% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 14.3%

Scout is the worst $4 card again. It hasn't the lowest deviation anymore, but is still clearly last. It was voted last 54 times, more than half the voters. It was voted twice above average, even on the first rank once.
#65 =0 Thief (Base) Weighted Average: 6.0% ▼2.8pp / Unweighted Average: 7.0% / Median: 3.5% ▼0.1pp / Standard Deviation: 9.4%

Thief is also on the same rank with a worse average value. It has the lowest deviation in this list. It was voted last 10 times and once above average.
#64 ▼3 Navigator (Seaside) Weighted Average: 11.8% ▼5.7pp / Unweighted Average: 12.9% / Median: 9.5% ▼4.8pp / Standard Deviation: 12.3%

We're making a jump of almost 6pp and we're finding Navigator which lost 3 ranks. It has the second lowest deviation in this list. It was voted 4 times last and 4 times above average.
#63 ▲1 Feast (Base) Weighted Average: 12.2% ▼0.9pp / Unweighted Average: 13.6% / Median: 9.2% ▼1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 14.6%

After losing quite a lot last year, Feast is one rank higher this time although it is slightly worse than last year. It was voted last 3 times and 3 times above average as well.
#62 =0 Treasure Map (Seaside) Weighted Average: 13.8% ▼2.4pp / Unweighted Average: 15.5% / Median: 12.3% ▼2.0pp / Standard Deviation: 12.8%

Treasure Map stayed where it was, but it is slightly weaker than last year. It has the fourth lowest deviation in this list. It was voted last 3 times and above average twice.
#61 ▼3 Pirate Ship (Seaside) Weighted Average: 14.3% ▼5.0pp / Unweighted Average: 17.1% / Median: 9.8% ▼6.3pp / Standard Deviation: 20.5%

Pirate Ship is 3 ranks and 5pp worse. It has a pretty high deviation for such a low ranked card. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 5 times last and 7 times above average.
#60 ▼1 Bureaucrat (Base) Weighted Average: 15.8% ▼2.0pp / Unweighted Average: 17.5% / Median: 14.3% ▼5.3pp / Standard Deviation: 12.5%

Bureaucrat is one rank and 2pp worse than last year. It has the third lowest deviation in this list. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 3 times above average.
#59 ▲4 Coppersmith (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 15.9% ▲0.6pp / Unweighted Average: 17.6% / Median: 13.1% ▲0.6pp / Standard Deviation: 14.1%

Coppersmith is 4 ranks better while having only a slightly better average value. It has only a small lead of 0.04pp over Bureaucrat and would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted 3 times above average.
#58 ▲2 Spy (Base) Weighted Average: 16.4% ▼1.1pp / Unweighted Average: 16.7% / Median: 12.5% ▼1.8pp / Standard Deviation: 14.0%

Spy is 2 ranks better although it is slightly worse in average. It would be 3 ranks worse in the unweighted ranking. It has one last rank and 5 votes above 50%.   
#57 ▼3 Taxman (Guilds) Weighted Average: 20.8% ▼7.2pp / Unweighted Average: 24.3% / Median: 19.6% ▼7.2pp / Standard Deviation: 16.4%

We're making a jump of over 4pp. Taxman is over 7pp and 3 ranks worse. It was voted 8 times above average.
#56 ▲1 Talisman (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 23.6% ▲2.3pp / Unweighted Average: 26.0% / Median: 21.9% ▲4.0pp / Standard Deviation: 17.2%

Talisman is one rank higher than last year. It would be 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted last once and 12 times above average.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2015, 08:08:44 am »
+16

The Best Cards - Part 2/6

#55 ▲1 Rats (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 23.9% ▲0.5pp / Unweighted Average: 24.9% / Median: 20.0% ▲0.4pp / Standard Deviation: 19.5%

Rats has basically the same average value, but is one rank higher. It was voted last once and 7 times above average.
#54 ▼1 Noble Brigand (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 24.0% ▼2.1pp / Unweighted Average: 26.5% / Median: 23.2% ▼5.4pp / Standard Deviation: 17.1%

Noble Brigand lost a little bit and also one rank. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It has only a small lead of 0.07pp over Rats. It was voted last once and 10 times above 50%.
#53 ▲2 Nomad Camp (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 25.0% ▼3.0pp / Unweighted Average: 24.9% / Median: 21.4% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 16.8%

Nomad Camp has a worse average value, but is still 2 ranks higher than before. It would be 3 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. It has a pretty low deviation. It was voted last once and 8 times above average.
#52 ▼1 Feodum (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 27.0% ▼4.9pp / Unweighted Average: 27.8% / Median: 23.1% ▼6.9pp / Standard Deviation: 18.9%

Feodum is nearly 5pp and one rank worse. It was voted 13 times above average.
#51 Messenger (Adventures) Weighted Average: 30.4% / Unweighted Average: 32.5% / Median: 27.7% / Standard Deviation: 20.0%

Messenger is the worst new card in this list. It was voted 13 times above average.
#50 ▼2 Death Cart (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 33.2% ▼2.8pp / Unweighted Average: 37.1% / Median: 30.8% ▼4.9pp / Standard Deviation: 21.9%

Death Cart has a worse average value and is also 2 ranks worse than last year. It would be 4 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It has the highest deviation in this list so far. It was voted 20 times above average.
#49 ▼3 Trader (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 34.8% ▼7.6pp / Unweighted Average: 36.9% / Median: 33.9% ▼7.2pp / Standard Deviation: 17.2%

Trader is over 7pp and 3 ranks worse. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted last once and 4 times above 70%.
#48 ▲3 Walled Village (Promo) Weighted Average: 35.8% ▲5.4pp / Unweighted Average: 36.1% / Median: 33.9% ▲5.3pp / Standard Deviation: 17.9%

Walled Village is the worst of the 8 $4 villages. It's over 5pp and 3 ranks better than last year. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted last once and 6 times above 70%.
#47 ▼2 Island (Seaside) Weighted Average: 36.6% ▼5.9pp / Unweighted Average: 39.0% / Median: 37.5% ▼7.1pp / Standard Deviation: 18.7%

Island is nearly 6pp and 2 ranks worse than last year. It would be 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted last once and 7 times above 70%.
#46 ▲3 Armory (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 36.9% ▲3.2pp / Unweighted Average: 35.1% / Median: 33.9% ▲3.6pp / Standard Deviation: 19.3%

Armory is 3 ranks higher than last year. It would be 4 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking though. It was voted last once and 5 times above 70%.
#45 ▼1 Baron (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 38.0% ▼5.1pp / Unweighted Average: 37.1% / Median: 36.9% ▼4.2pp / Standard Deviation: 19.5%

Baron lost over 5pp, but only one rank. It would be even 2 more ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted last once and 5 times above 70%.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 11:33:36 am by Qvist »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2015, 08:08:50 am »
+13

The Best Cards - Part 3/6

#44 ▼5 Silk Road (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 38.4% ▼14.3pp / Unweighted Average: 39.2% / Median: 33.9% ▼17.9pp / Standard Deviation: 21.5%

After losing 13 ranks last year, Silk Road loses again over 14pp and 5 ranks. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 10 times above 70%.
#43 Miser (Adventures) Weighted Average: 38.5% / Unweighted Average: 39.1% / Median: 36.5% / Standard Deviation: 21.2%

Miser is the second worst new Adventures card in this list. It has a small lead over Silk Road of 0.12pp and would be below it in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 8 times above 70%.
#42 Pilgrimage (Adventures) Weighted Average: 43.8% / Unweighted Average: 42.3% / Median: 40.0% / Standard Deviation: 24.6%

We're making a big jump of 5.3pp and Pilgrimage is the first new event in this list. It has the third highest deviation in this list. It was voted last once and 12 times above 70%.
#41 ▼6 Gardens (Base) Weighted Average: 46.1% ▼7.1pp / Unweighted Average: 49.2% / Median: 44.6% ▼9.0pp / Standard Deviation: 23.2%

Just like Silk Road, Gardens lost quite a bit, 6 ranks just like last year. It would be still 5 ranks higher in the unweighted list. It has the fourth highest deviation in this list with 22 votes above 70%.
#40 ▼2 Cutpurse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 46.7% ▼3.5pp / Unweighted Average: 46.2% / Median: 44.6% ▼3.6pp / Standard Deviation: 20.4%

Cutpurse lost 3.5pp and 2 ranks. It was voted 12 times above 70%.
#39 ▲1 Remodel (Base) Weighted Average: 47.8% ▲1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 49.0% / Median: 46.2% ▲1.6pp / Standard Deviation: 18.9%

Remodel is slightly better and one rank higher. It would be 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 12 times above 70%.
#38 ▲1 Mining Village (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 48.2% ▼0.3pp / Unweighted Average: 48.9% / Median: 48.4% ▲0.2pp / Standard Deviation: 18.0%

Mining Village is the 7th out of 8 villages. It has basically the same average value, but is one rank higher. It was voted 11 times above 70%.
#37 ▼6 Scavenger (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 48.9% ▼5.0pp / Unweighted Average: 48.1% / Median: 49.2% ▼0.8pp / Standard Deviation: 19.6%

After being 10 ranks higher the last time, Scavenger is 6 ranks and 5pp worse this time. It would be even 2 more ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 12 times above 70%.
#36 Mission (Adventures) Weighted Average: 50.3% / Unweighted Average: 46.0% / Median: 43.1% / Standard Deviation: 26.3%

We're now above 50% and we have Mission, the better one out of the two Event cards. It would be 5 ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. It has the highest deviation in this list. It was voted 17 times below 30%.
#35 ▼2 Farming Village (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 50.4% ▼2.9pp / Unweighted Average: 51.6% / Median: 52.3% ▼1.3pp / Standard Deviation: 20.5%

Farming Village is the 6th out of 8 villages and is only 0.03pp better than Mission. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted first once and 13 times below 30%.
#34 Ranger (Adventures) Weighted Average: 52.3% / Unweighted Average: 51.2% / Median: 50.8% / Standard Deviation: 23.2%

Ranger is the next new card. It has the fifth highest deviation in this list. It was voted first once and 11 times below 30%.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 07:02:37 pm by Qvist »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2015, 08:08:57 am »
+15

The Best Cards - Part 4/6

#33 ▼5 Horse Traders (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 53.4% ▼2.2pp / Unweighted Average: 53.2% / Median: 50.0% ▼7.1pp / Standard Deviation: 17.0%

Horse Traders is slightly worse, but 5 ranks lower than last year. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It has a pretty low deviation. It was voted 7 times below 30%.
#32 ▲12 Advisor (Guilds) Weighted Average: 53.9% ▲15.4pp / Unweighted Average: 53.1% / Median: 53.9% ▲18.2pp / Standard Deviation: 21.5%

Advisor is a big winner this year, it's over 15pp and 12 ranks better. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It was voted 14 times below 30%.
#31 ▲3 Fortress (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 54.8% ▲2.1pp / Unweighted Average: 56.3% / Median: 55.4% ▲1.8pp / Standard Deviation: 19.0%

Fortress is the 5th out of 8 villages. It's 3 ranks higher than last year and would be even 2 more ranks higher in the unweighted list. It was voted first 3 times and 7 times below 30%.
#30 ▼4 Ironworks (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 55.3% ▼1.5pp / Unweighted Average: 54.2% / Median: 56.3% ▲2.7pp / Standard Deviation: 20.8%

After being 17 ranks better last year, Ironworks lost 4 ranks this year again. It was voted 16 times below 30%.
#29 ▲1 Moneylender (Base) Weighted Average: 55.6% ▲2.0pp / Unweighted Average: 53.9% / Median: 53.2% ▼0.4pp / Standard Deviation: 19.7%

Moneylender has a better average and is also one rank better. It would be 2 ranks lower in the unweighted list. It was voted last once and 10 times below 30%.   
#28 Transmogrify (Adventures) Weighted Average: 57.4% / Unweighted Average: 60.0% / Median: 63.5% / Standard Deviation: 20.9%

Transmogrify is the fourth best Adventures card in this list. It would be 3 ranks higher in the unweighted list. It was voted 8 times below 30%.
#27 Duplicate (Adventures) Weighted Average: 57.9% / Unweighted Average: 59.7% / Median: 60.0% / Standard Deviation: 19.4%

Duplicate is the second Adventures card in a row and the third best in this list. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted 6 times below 30%.
#26 ▲3 Envoy (Promo) Weighted Average: 58.5% ▲5.0pp / Unweighted Average: 60.1% / Median: 63.1% ▲7.7pp / Standard Deviation: 22.1%

Envoy is 3 ranks and 5pp better than last year. It would be 2 ranks higher in the unweighted list. It was voted first and last once each and 10 times below 30%.
#25 ▲12 Procession (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 59.1% ▲14.6pp / Unweighted Average: 57.0% / Median: 57.1% ▲17.8pp / Standard Deviation: 26.2%

After losing 8 ranks last year Procession is 12 ranks higher this year - just like Advisor. It would be 3 ranks lower in the unweighted list. It has the second highest deviation with 21 votes below 30% and one vote on the first rank.
#24 ▼1 Salvager (Seaside) Weighted Average: 59.6% ▼4.2pp / Unweighted Average: 59.6% / Median: 61.5% ▼4.6pp / Standard Deviation: 18.5%

Salvager loses over 4pp and one rank. It would be even 3 more ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 7 times below 30%.
#23 ▲2 Quarry (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 62.8% ▲6.6pp / Unweighted Average: 62.5% / Median: 63.9% ▲12.1pp / Standard Deviation: 22.3%

Quarry is 2 ranks and 6pp better than last year. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted first twice and 11 times below 30%.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 10:28:43 am by Qvist »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2015, 08:09:03 am »
+14

The Best Cards - Part 5/6

#22 =0 Conspirator (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 64.5% ▼0.2pp / Unweighted Average: 64.3% / Median: 67.3% ▲3.0pp / Standard Deviation: 19.6%

Conspirator stayed basically where it was. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted first once and 5 times below 30%.
#21 ▼3 Plaza (Guilds) Weighted Average: 65.6% ▼0.7pp / Unweighted Average: 62.5% / Median: 61.1% ▼6.8pp / Standard Deviation: 17.5%

Plaza is the 4th out of 8 villages. It has a similar average, but is still 3 ranks lower than last year. It would be 2 ranks lower in the unweighted list. It has a pretty low deviation as it was voted only 3 times below 30%.
#20 ▼4 Worker's Village (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 66.9% ▼2.2pp / Unweighted Average: 65.6% / Median: 68.5% ▼1.1pp / Standard Deviation: 19.7%

Worker's Village is the 3rd out of 8 villages. It is a little bit worse than last year and also 4 ranks lower. It was voted first once and 16 times below 50%.
#19 Port (Adventures) Weighted Average: 67.5% / Unweighted Average: 67.1% / Median: 68.3% / Standard Deviation: 21.8%

Port is the 2nd out of 8 villages, the third village in a row and the second best Adventures card in this list. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list. It was voted 4 times first and 15 times below average.
#18 ▲2 Smithy (Base) Weighted Average: 67.8% ▲2.7pp / Unweighted Average: 65.9% / Median: 69.6% ▲7.1pp / Standard Deviation: 18.1%

Smithy is a little bit better than last year and 2 ranks higher as well. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It was voted first once and 14 times below average.
#17 ▼5 Bishop (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 68.2% ▼4.7pp / Unweighted Average: 69.6% / Median: 70.8% ▼6.0pp / Standard Deviation: 19.3%

Bishop is nearly 5pp and 5 ranks worse than last year. It would be still 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted first once and 15 times below average.
#16 ▼3 Caravan (Seaside) Weighted Average: 68.7% ▼3.2pp / Unweighted Average: 68.0% / Median: 73.9% ▼1.1pp / Standard Deviation: 19.0%

Caravan is over 3pp and 3 ranks worse than last year. It was voted first once and 17 times below average.
#15 ▼6 Monument (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 69.5% ▼7.2pp / Unweighted Average: 67.7% / Median: 70.8% ▼7.8pp / Standard Deviation: 19.8%

Monument is over 7pp worse and 6 ranks lower. It would be even 2 more ranks lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted first once and 13 times below average.
#14 =0 Marauder (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 71.5% ▼0.1pp / Unweighted Average: 70.5% / Median: 75.4% ▼3.2pp / Standard Deviation: 20.2%

Marauder basically didn't change at all. It was voted last once and 18 times below average.
#13 ▲3 Spice Merchant (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 72.0% ▲5.2pp / Unweighted Average: 71.2% / Median: 75.8% ▲9.1pp / Standard Deviation: 17.6%

Spice Merchant is over 5pp better and 3 ranks higher. It was voted first once and 9 times below 50%.
#12 ▲6 Throne Room (Base) Weighted Average: 73.1% ▲7.4pp / Unweighted Average: 73.1% / Median: 78.1% ▲10.2pp / Standard Deviation: 18.5%

Throne Room is over 7pp better and 6 ranks higher. It was voted on the first rank once and 12 times below average.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 09:55:19 am by Qvist »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2015, 08:09:12 am »
+15

The Best Cards - Part 6/6

#11 ▼1 Militia (Base) Weighted Average: 74.1% ▼2.5pp / Unweighted Average: 75.1% / Median: 80.0% ▼0.4pp / Standard Deviation: 17.5%

Militia lost slightly in its average value and also lost a rank. It would be still one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was voted first once and 10 times below average.
#10 ▼3 Young Witch (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 75.5% ▼2.6pp / Unweighted Average: 73.4% / Median: 79.0% ▼4.9pp / Standard Deviation: 20.2%

Young Witch lost about the same as Militia, but is 3 ranks lower instead of one. It would be below Militia in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 11 times below average.
#9 ▼7 Sea Hag (Seaside) Weighted Average: 77.8% ▼10.7pp / Unweighted Average: 78.9% / Median: 83.9% ▼10.7pp / Standard Deviation: 19.4%

Sea Hag isn't on #1 anymore. It even lost over 10pp and 7 ranks. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking. It was still voted 8 times on the first rank and 9 times below average.
#8 ▲3 Bridge (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 81.2% ▲4.8pp / Unweighted Average: 80.8% / Median: 85.9% ▲7.3pp / Standard Deviation: 14.6%

Bridge is nearly 5pp and 3 ranks better. It would be 2 ranks higher in the unweighted ranking. It has a really low deviation as it was voted below average only 4 times.
#7 ▲12 Herald (Guilds) Weighted Average: 81.8% ▲16.5pp / Unweighted Average: 75.7% / Median: 83.1% ▲15.2pp / Standard Deviation: 21.8%

Just like Advisor and Procession, Herald is 12 ranks higher than last year with an over 16pp better average. It would be 2 ranks lower in the unweighted list. It was voted twice on the first rank and 13 times below average.
#6 ▲2 Wandering Minstrel (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 85.1% ▲8.0pp / Unweighted Average: 80.3% / Median: 86.2% ▲5.8pp / Standard Deviation: 16.3%

After being 21 ranks better last year Wandering Minstrel is again 8pp and 2 ranks better, being still clearly the best village in this list. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted list. It was voted first once and 5 times below average.
#5 Magpie (Adventures) Weighted Average: 85.4% / Unweighted Average: 80.9% / Median: 91.1% / Standard Deviation: 21.9%

Magpie is the best Adventures card in this list. It was once voted last, 4 times on the first rank and 7 times below average.
#4 =0 Jack of all Trades (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 85.4% ▼2.0pp / Unweighted Average: 84.1% / Median: 93.0% ▲0.1pp / Standard Deviation: 19.5%

Jack of all Trades - a former #1 - stays on the fourth rank while being slightly worse. It has a tiny lead over Magpie of 0.02pp. It was voted 10 times on the first rank and 5 times below average.
#3 ▲2 Ironmonger (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 87.2% ▲5.8pp / Unweighted Average: 85.2% / Median: 89.2% ▲5.3pp / Standard Deviation: 15.3%

Ironmonger is nearly 6pp better and 2 ranks higher than before. It has a pretty low deviation. It was voted first 3 times, but below average also only 3 times.
#2 =0 Tournament (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 90.3% ▲1.8pp / Unweighted Average: 88.7% / Median: 96.4% ▲5.3pp / Standard Deviation: 17.3%

Tournament stays on the second rank while being slightly better. In the unweighted ranking it would be #1. It was voted first 23 times and 3 times below average.
#1 ▲2 Remake (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 92.5% ▲5.0pp / Unweighted Average: 87.9% / Median: 96.4% ▲3.5pp / Standard Deviation: 19.4%

Remake is the new #1. It climbed 2 ranks and is 5pp better. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. It was voted first 20 times (less often than Tournament) and 7 times below average.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 09:38:16 am by Qvist »
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2015, 08:11:40 am »
+10

I DIDN'T PUT SCOUT ON THE FIRST RANK!

PLOT TWIST! I CONVERTED SOMEONE TO SCOUTISM!


I HAVE A NEW BEST FRIEND!!!!!111
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2015, 08:13:24 am »
0

Talisman should be higher: it gives you all the pile control.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2015, 08:56:16 am »
0

Talisman should be higher: it gives you all the pile control.

Not with Victory piles, which is its problem.

Navigator is surely better than Feast, though. :/
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2015, 09:16:01 am »
0

I think Miser belongs in the bottom tier.  I've played with Miser a half dozen times now, and I've never seen it pay off.  Every time someone gets one, they end up regretting it.  It's just too slow.  Removing one Copper from your deck with a terminal action is almost always a net downside (Moneylender provides +3 coin and is still merely average).  So you need to use the second ability enough times to make up for the lost value early.  If Miser is worth +3 coins, you'll certainly get a few uses of it, but terminal gold is meh.  You can't get 4 coins from Miser until you've played it at least five times!  And Miser doesn't help to cycle your deck much.  Now, you could dream of buying and using multiple Misers to speed this up, but it's terminal and you need a source of +buy to take advantage of it.  Too much work, not enough upside.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2015, 09:34:26 am »
+1

I think Miser belongs in the bottom tier.  I've played with Miser a half dozen times now, and I've never seen it pay off.  Every time someone gets one, they end up regretting it.  It's just too slow.  Removing one Copper from your deck with a terminal action is almost always a net downside (Moneylender provides +3 coin and is still merely average).  So you need to use the second ability enough times to make up for the lost value early.  If Miser is worth +3 coins, you'll certainly get a few uses of it, but terminal gold is meh.  You can't get 4 coins from Miser until you've played it at least five times!  And Miser doesn't help to cycle your deck much.  Now, you could dream of buying and using multiple Misers to speed this up, but it's terminal and you need a source of +buy to take advantage of it.  Too much work, not enough upside.
I agree it's terrible (particularly in isolation), but I've seen it work (usually in combination with some kind of Throne variant).  Awful, but not bottom ten material, quite.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2015, 09:43:31 am »
+2

Question about ranks gained/lost... I'm guessing that if a card was #5 before, but then an Adventures card is in the top 5 now, that the card would be #6 and thus show as having lost a rank, even if everything else were the same? If this is correct, then as a whole we should see 30 more ranks lost than ranks gained. Just an interesting note; it means that a card losing ranks doesn't mean it's now considered worse than last year.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2015, 09:47:25 am »
+5

Question about ranks gained/lost... I'm guessing that if a card was #5 before, but then an Adventures card is in the top 5 now, that the card would be #6 and thus show as having lost a rank, even if everything else were the same? If this is correct, then as a whole we should see 30 more ranks lost than ranks gained. Just an interesting note; it means that a card losing ranks doesn't mean it's now considered worse than last year.

I think Qvist is comparing the list that you get when removing all the Adventures cards to the old lists. Otherwise, if Scout was last rank last time and is last rank now, it couldn't be =0.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2015, 09:50:24 am »
+5

I think Miser belongs in the bottom tier.  I've played with Miser a half dozen times now, and I've never seen it pay off.  Every time someone gets one, they end up regretting it.  It's just too slow.  Removing one Copper from your deck with a terminal action is almost always a net downside (Moneylender provides +3 coin and is still merely average).  So you need to use the second ability enough times to make up for the lost value early.  If Miser is worth +3 coins, you'll certainly get a few uses of it, but terminal gold is meh.  You can't get 4 coins from Miser until you've played it at least five times!  And Miser doesn't help to cycle your deck much.  Now, you could dream of buying and using multiple Misers to speed this up, but it's terminal and you need a source of +buy to take advantage of it.  Too much work, not enough upside.

I do think it's one of the worst cards from the new expansion, but I don't think it should be in the bottom 10. Personally, I have it at #46 which is probably quite a bit overrated (I made it work once, so I still like the card :) )

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I wouldn't be so sure about this. I think the cocensus agrees with SCSN's hypothesis which stated that there is one Australian list among them, the evidence being Fortune Teller and Ruined Village at the top.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 09:53:26 am by drsteelhammer »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2015, 10:03:23 am »
0

I think Miser belongs in the bottom tier.  I've played with Miser a half dozen times now, and I've never seen it pay off.  Every time someone gets one, they end up regretting it.  It's just too slow.  Removing one Copper from your deck with a terminal action is almost always a net downside (Moneylender provides +3 coin and is still merely average).  So you need to use the second ability enough times to make up for the lost value early.  If Miser is worth +3 coins, you'll certainly get a few uses of it, but terminal gold is meh.  You can't get 4 coins from Miser until you've played it at least five times!  And Miser doesn't help to cycle your deck much.  Now, you could dream of buying and using multiple Misers to speed this up, but it's terminal and you need a source of +buy to take advantage of it.  Too much work, not enough upside.

Miser is basically a Pirate Ship that works on yourself. They should really be around the same rank. At least Pirate Ship might hit a good opponents treasure someday, but Miser is a terminal that trashes a Copper and might be a terminal Gold after four shuffles. It's really not that good. I'm more likely to play Taxman or even Treasure Map.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2015, 10:08:15 am »
+1

Question about ranks gained/lost... I'm guessing that if a card was #5 before, but then an Adventures card is in the top 5 now, that the card would be #6 and thus show as having lost a rank, even if everything else were the same? If this is correct, then as a whole we should see 30 more ranks lost than ranks gained. Just an interesting note; it means that a card losing ranks doesn't mean it's now considered worse than last year.

I think Qvist is comparing the list that you get when removing all the Adventures cards to the old lists. Otherwise, if Scout was last rank last time and is last rank now, it couldn't be =0.

faust is correct. Otherwise it would be silly to compare ranks as most of the cards are ranked worse than last year.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2015, 10:54:22 am »
+1



 Scout ... even on the first rank once.

Fortune Teller .... even once on the first rank.


Duchess ... except one who voted it first!

Ruined Village .... Everyone voted it last except one person who voted it first.

I think someone is trolling the ranking. Qvist, is there a way that you can see who voted these first and see if it's the same person?

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2015, 10:57:26 am »
0

Like Taxman is fine, it's usually not that good, but on a board where it's the only terminal it's usually worth opening. Talisman on the other hand is ok when there's literally no other way to gain extra cards and there are power 4s and.....
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2015, 11:17:08 am »
+1

Rats is already way too high, it's a deck-destroying trap card on more than 9 out of 10 boards. Should definitely be bottom tier. I voted it second-to-last myself, just above Scout.

Taxman is slightly underrated imo. It may be a terminal without direct benefit to yourself, but it's still a pretty cool Mine/Cutpurse mash-up that really shines on some boards. I have it on #42.

I agree Miser doesn't belong down here, it's really awesome if you can play it often. I Princed a Miser once which is absolutely crazy. It was basically +$6 every turn at some point.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2015, 12:18:33 pm »
0



 Scout ... even on the first rank once.

Fortune Teller .... even once on the first rank.


Duchess ... except one who voted it first!

Ruined Village .... Everyone voted it last except one person who voted it first.

I think someone is trolling the ranking. Qvist, is there a way that you can see who voted these first and see if it's the same person?
You're ruining it.

This is so not hot.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2015, 12:51:30 pm »
+3

Navigator is surely better than Feast, though. :/

No way. At least Feast does something useful sometimes.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2015, 12:56:30 pm »
+1

Rats is already way too high, it's a deck-destroying trap card on more than 9 out of 10 boards. Should definitely be bottom tier. I voted it second-to-last myself, just above Scout.

I don't think how good a card is when you randomly add it to a deck is a good measure of the goodness of a card. You buy Rats when you shouldn't and you definitely play the card from your hand too often. Doesn't make Rats worse than Thief and Spy. Rats has its place, Thief just really doesn't.

Quote
I agree Miser doesn't belong down here, it's really awesome if you can play it often. I Princed a Miser once which is absolutely crazy. It was basically +$6 every turn at some point.

Okay, but you really don't get to Prince it every game. Cards being crazy good with Prince doesn't make them like, ever good in general... you could say the exact same thing about Pirate Ship and there's a pretty clear consensus on that card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2015, 01:31:15 pm »
0

Had the same bottom 11, except Miser switched with Bureaucrat.  I probably overrated Bureaucrat, but it has its uses in the right situations.  And I'm sure Miser is coming up in the next section.

Taxman should be ahead of Talisman, but we're looking at some pretty fringe-use cards here and splitting hairs.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2015, 01:43:52 pm »
0

Rats is already way too high, it's a deck-destroying trap card on more than 9 out of 10 boards. Should definitely be bottom tier. I voted it second-to-last myself, just above Scout.

I don't think how good a card is when you randomly add it to a deck is a good measure of the goodness of a card. You buy Rats when you shouldn't and you definitely play the card from your hand too often. Doesn't make Rats worse than Thief and Spy. Rats has its place, Thief just really doesn't.

Every card has its place. Thief is good in some games with strong trashing but no virtual money. I think Rats is more situational than Thief, it is generally weaker and shines on a smaller amount of boards. I don't think I've actually bought Rats more than a couple of times in my life, and I don't think I've EVER been glad about buying it, nor have I regretted not buying it (then again, of course I didn't play Dark Ages half as much as Base...).

Before people come out and show me games where they dominated with Rats: I know they exist, I just acknowledged every card has its place, I'm just saying that Rats is worse than almost all other cards in general.

Quote
Quote
I agree Miser doesn't belong down here, it's really awesome if you can play it often. I Princed a Miser once which is absolutely crazy. It was basically +$6 every turn at some point.

Okay, but you really don't get to Prince it every game. Cards being crazy good with Prince doesn't make them like, ever good in general... you could say the exact same thing about Pirate Ship and there's a pretty clear consensus on that card.

But Pirate Ship actually helps your opponents a lot of the time, while Miser clears out your own copper. Of course, Moneylender and Spice Merchant do it better, as they provide you immediate benefit, but imo Miser is clearly better than Pirate Ship. Miser is not just good with Prince, it also works nicely with Throne Room variants and strong engines in general. If nothing else, it's an acceptable pseudo-trasher, if you want to build an engine but lack actual trashing.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 01:46:05 pm by Aleimon Thimble »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2015, 01:49:08 pm »
+1

Here is some useful data compiled by a forum user (not me) on gain rates of cards based on the top 20 players on Iso (as of one snapshot). I can't recall what the time range of the games played.

For example, Rats is gained by top 20 players in 33% of games (sample size: 615 games with Rats, of which it was gained 204 times).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13mQ1humtQbPLY9nbKscR65dV7hbGPdI3AQkNjMHZpeM/pubhtml?gid=495443102&single=true
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2015, 01:52:50 pm »
0

Had the same bottom 11, except Miser switched with Bureaucrat.  I probably overrated Bureaucrat, but it has its uses in the right situations.  And I'm sure Miser is coming up in the next section.

Taxman should be ahead of Talisman, but we're looking at some pretty fringe-use cards here and splitting hairs.
Taxman is generally better than talisman but when either of them are good talisman is a rockstar and taxman is meh.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2015, 02:01:32 pm »
+3

Rats is already way too high, it's a deck-destroying trap card on more than 9 out of 10 boards. Should definitely be bottom tier. I voted it second-to-last myself, just above Scout.

I don't think how good a card is when you randomly add it to a deck is a good measure of the goodness of a card. You buy Rats when you shouldn't and you definitely play the card from your hand too often. Doesn't make Rats worse than Thief and Spy. Rats has its place, Thief just really doesn't.

Every card has its place. Thief is good in some games with strong trashing but no virtual money. I think Rats is more situational than Thief, it is generally weaker and shines on a smaller amount of boards. I don't think I've actually bought Rats more than a couple of times in my life, and I don't think I've EVER been glad about buying it, nor have I regretted not buying it (then again, of course I didn't play Dark Ages half as much as Base...).

Before people come out and show me games where they dominated with Rats: I know they exist, I just acknowledged every card has its place, I'm just saying that Rats is worse than almost all other cards in general.

Thief is way more situational than Rats, and even when it's good, it's not as good as Rats when Rats is good. Even if there's trashing and no virtual money, Thief isn't usually very good because either your opponent went for big money without the trashing and your Thief is still partially helping him or he went for an engine and your Thief is mostly hitting 2 Actions. But Rats is good almost whenever there's cost-based TfB and no other trashing.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2015, 02:07:04 pm »
+1

Had the same bottom 11, except Miser switched with Bureaucrat.  I probably overrated Bureaucrat, but it has its uses in the right situations.  And I'm sure Miser is coming up in the next section.

Taxman should be ahead of Talisman, but we're looking at some pretty fringe-use cards here and splitting hairs.
Taxman is generally better than talisman but when either of them are good talisman is a rockstar and taxman is meh.

Yes, I was thinking of this.  This tends to be the crux of a lot of variation in people's rankings, whether you think being generally okay is more important than being occasionally very good.

Every card has its place. Thief is good in some games with strong trashing but no virtual money. I think Rats is more situational than Thief, it is generally weaker and shines on a smaller amount of boards. I don't think I've actually bought Rats more than a couple of times in my life, and I don't think I've EVER been glad about buying it, nor have I regretted not buying it (then again, of course I didn't play Dark Ages half as much as Base...).

Before people come out and show me games where they dominated with Rats: I know they exist, I just acknowledged every card has its place, I'm just saying that Rats is worse than almost all other cards in general.

The thing with Rats is it really only needs one enabler card (a trasher that can make use of the fact that it costs 4, like Apprentice or Bishop) to be a useful part of a strategy.  When it's the wrong choice it's a big mistake, but you'll find plenty of boards that have Rats and one other card like that.

Thief requires the perfect situation to develop, which is to say that there's no virtual coin (rare), no strategy that can outrace the Thief attacks (rarer), and the ability to play it enough times to get the value you need out of stopping to pick it up.  That's not just one card that affects the value of Thief, but the entire other 9 cards.  And yeah, I'm sure there are some other situations that can make Thief useful, but they are so uncommon to be almost negligible.  If I'm ranking every card 1-237, Thief is only above Scout.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2015, 02:18:13 pm »
0

Spy should be higher. I'm not sure how much higher, but it's better than Taxman. It's a card you buy in engines when you don't hit $5 and don't want Silver, which happens quite often. The Spy attack + self-filtering is also surprisingly good at slowing down money decks and making your engine more consistent.

It plays a bigger role in Base only games than games with all expansions, so I can understand it being down pretty low. But, I mean, Taxman is garbage. (And this is coming from the person who really wants Taxman to not be garbage.)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2015, 02:22:28 pm »
0

Yes, I was thinking of this.  This tends to be the crux of a lot of variation in people's rankings, whether you think being generally okay is more important than being occasionally very good.

Well, in the case of Taxman vs Talisman, it's that both of them are worse than nothing most of the time, so it doesn't matter which one is better because you're getting neither. What matters is that Talisman can be good enough that sometimes you actually buy one.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2015, 02:34:25 pm »
0

I almost never buy Talisman. I may have rated it lower than it showed up on the list. I can't remember. Anyway, as far as Workshop variants, it is by far the worse. You can only play it in your buy phase which most of the time means you are skipping a $5 cost for two $4 costs or something. Whereas with any other Workshop variant, you just gain your card, and you are still able to buy a $5 cost or whatever your deck needs.

Now, on a board without any good $5 costs or where you don't want many of them and $4 costs, sure talisman is good, but in general, I would rather just play an IW or Workshop or whatever variant really.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2015, 02:41:46 pm »
+1

Rats is already way too high, it's a deck-destroying trap card on more than 9 out of 10 boards. Should definitely be bottom tier. I voted it second-to-last myself, just above Scout.

I don't think how good a card is when you randomly add it to a deck is a good measure of the goodness of a card. You buy Rats when you shouldn't and you definitely play the card from your hand too often. Doesn't make Rats worse than Thief and Spy. Rats has its place, Thief just really doesn't.

Every card has its place. Thief is good in some games with strong trashing but no virtual money. I think Rats is more situational than Thief, it is generally weaker and shines on a smaller amount of boards. I don't think I've actually bought Rats more than a couple of times in my life, and I don't think I've EVER been glad about buying it, nor have I regretted not buying it (then again, of course I didn't play Dark Ages half as much as Base...).

Before people come out and show me games where they dominated with Rats: I know they exist, I just acknowledged every card has its place, I'm just saying that Rats is worse than almost all other cards in general.
Thief just never shines. Only some Big Money-type games were people trash down, maybe. Rats actually combos decently with almost all TfB. Not that you want the Rats all the time, but when it shines, it's really good. There is no way Thief, Navigator, Feast and Scout can compete, as they all suffer from the same problem that they never really shine (except for that one game were SCSN bought 10 Navigators).

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2015, 02:54:55 pm »
0

The best use for talisman is for draining two cards at once from a pile for the price of one. Thief is used to shutting down big money taxman doesn't have a good use besides looking at the opponent's hand and a very mild attack. Spy is there to buy when you want something that doesn't hurt your deck that much.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2015, 02:55:23 pm »
+2

I haven't played Adventures yet, but Miser feels more like a Trade Route than like a Pirate Ship.

The same story - you might want to open it if the engine is possible, but adequate trashing is not available.
So first you trash a bit with it and closer to the endgame it might give you some bonuses on top of it.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2015, 05:13:21 pm »
0

I think Miser belongs in the bottom tier.  I've played with Miser a half dozen times now, and I've never seen it pay off.  Every time someone gets one, they end up regretting it.  It's just too slow.  Removing one Copper from your deck with a terminal action is almost always a net downside (Moneylender provides +3 coin and is still merely average).  So you need to use the second ability enough times to make up for the lost value early.  If Miser is worth +3 coins, you'll certainly get a few uses of it, but terminal gold is meh.  You can't get 4 coins from Miser until you've played it at least five times!  And Miser doesn't help to cycle your deck much.  Now, you could dream of buying and using multiple Misers to speed this up, but it's terminal and you need a source of +buy to take advantage of it.  Too much work, not enough upside.
I agree it's terrible (particularly in isolation), but I've seen it work (usually in combination with some kind of Throne variant).  Awful, but not bottom ten material, quite.

Exactly this. In fact, I've lost badly against someone playing Miser+Throneroom. When my engine kicked in, all the Provinces were already gone. I feel Miser is nowhere as bad as Pirate Ship or Taxman. That said, I have it ranked as #55. ;)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2015, 10:45:22 am »
+2



 Scout ... even on the first rank once.

Fortune Teller .... even once on the first rank.


Duchess ... except one who voted it first!

Ruined Village .... Everyone voted it last except one person who voted it first.

I think someone is trolling the ranking. Qvist, is there a way that you can see who voted these first and see if it's the same person?

Sure there is a way, but it is cumbersome and not worth it IMO. Even if it is the same person, it doesn't matter all that much as the respective cards are on the correct places anyway because there are enough people who voted correctly.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2015, 11:34:04 am »
+2

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2015, 11:34:14 am »
+4

Totally not obsessively refreshing this page for part 2, QVist.  :)

PPE: Good timing!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2015, 11:42:54 am »
+1

How is Walled Village worse than Farming Village? At least Walled Village's ability does something on a dud turn, potentially preventing an entire shuffle from consisting of nothing but dud turns, Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything ever.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2015, 11:46:48 am »
+1

How is Walled Village worse than Farming Village? At least Walled Village's ability does something on a dud turn, potentially preventing an entire shuffle from consisting of nothing but dud turns, Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything ever.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2015, 11:49:43 am »
+1

How is Walled Village worse than Farming Village? At least Walled Village's ability does something on a dud turn, potentially preventing an entire shuffle from consisting of nothing but dud turns, Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything ever.

Farming Village helps you on average more than once per game even if you don't try to pull any combos, and a lot more than that if you have anything that controls the top of your deck. I think you're failing to give credit to the effect because it's behind the scenes.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2015, 12:05:11 pm »
+1

Farming Village helps you on average more than once per game even if you don't try to pull any combos, and a lot more than that if you have anything that controls the top of your deck. I think you're failing to give credit to the effect because it's behind the scenes.

If there's any Estate trashing of any kind, it literally, in the literal sense of the word literally, doesn't do anything at all. If there is no trashing, the chances of actually skipping an Estate are still incredibly low (every time you play it, that is) and the impact of skipping an Estate is also pretty low.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2015, 12:08:10 pm »
0

Farming Village helps you on average more than once per game even if you don't try to pull any combos, and a lot more than that if you have anything that controls the top of your deck. I think you're failing to give credit to the effect because it's behind the scenes.

If there's any Estate trashing of any kind, it literally, in the literal sense of the word literally, doesn't do anything at all. If there is no trashing, the chances of actually skipping an Estate are still incredibly low (every time you play it, that is) and the impact of skipping an Estate is also pretty low.

It also skips Curses and, later on, Provinces.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2015, 12:10:01 pm »
+1

Sometimes you want to draw a Curse.  So you can trash it.  And if you only have Curses and Victory cards left in your deck, Farming Village doesn't draw anything.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2015, 12:13:27 pm »
+5

Farming Village helps you on average more than once per game even if you don't try to pull any combos, and a lot more than that if you have anything that controls the top of your deck. I think you're failing to give credit to the effect because it's behind the scenes.

If there's any Estate trashing of any kind, it literally, in the literal sense of the word literally, doesn't do anything at all.

This is literally objectively and trivially false. If any single one of the following conditions is in play, the ability does something even though there is Estate trashing:

1. There's Estate trashing, but you haven't trashed all your Estates because you went for a different strategy that doesn't involve trashing your all your Estates.

2. You haven't managed matched your trashing card with your all your Estates yet.

3. Your opponent is playing a cursing attack.

4. You have victory cards in your deck that aren't Estates.

5. It is a Shelters game.

6. Your opponent is playing Ambassador.

7. The Estate trashing that exists is terrible, like nothing but Trade Route. (Somewhat redundant with #1)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 12:14:48 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2015, 12:19:00 pm »
+7

yall forgetting that vanilla village would still be a top 30 $4 anyway

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2015, 12:31:06 pm »
+1

yall forgetting that vanilla village would still be a top 30 $4 anyway
But they're comparing Farming Village to Walled Village. Awaclus is arguing that Walled Village is vanilla Village with a small +, and that Farming Village isn't even that most of the time.

Farming Village becomes useful once you start getting Provinces and Duchies. Walled Village is only useful if you find it in a dud hand, which you want to be avoiding in the first place.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2015, 12:48:10 pm »
0

yall forgetting that vanilla village would still be a top 30 $4 anyway
But they're comparing Farming Village to Walled Village. Awaclus is arguing that Walled Village is vanilla Village with a small +, and that Farming Village isn't even that most of the time.

Farming Village becomes useful once you start getting Provinces and Duchies. Walled Village is only useful if you find it in a dud hand, which you want to be avoiding in the first place.

Well, it's probably also the most useful Village in Big Money.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2015, 12:56:35 pm »
+6

IMO Rats and armory shouldn't be on the 2nd list. Armory is very good gainer and the reason rats is so low is that too many people don't even know how to play it and when. It has many synergies that appear on many boards:
Elite synergies*: Apprentice, upgrade, forge, scrying pool, butcher, watchtower, salvager.
Other synergies*: raze, develop, remake, bishop, death cart, stonemason, vineyard, governor, graverobber, market square, squire, bonfire, farmland, trader, hermit, JOAT(in massive draw engine), expand.
*These lists are not complete
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2015, 01:19:11 pm »
0

1. There's Estate trashing, but you haven't trashed all your Estates because you went for a different strategy that doesn't involve trashing your all your Estates.

Then you probably don't really want the Farming Village either, unless you're playing an alt-VP strategy with terminal gainers, in which case the splitter might actually be nice, but especially in that case, you'd rather have Walled Village.

2. You haven't managed matched your trashing card with your all your Estates yet.

The Farming Village isn't really going to help you do that.

3. Your opponent is playing a cursing attack.

And then you can trash the Curses with whatever card you trashed the Estates with.

4. You have victory cards in your deck that aren't Estates.

Not until the very end of the game, at which point you also have so many non-Victory cards that it still really doesn't do anything.

5. It is a Shelters game.

In which case Farming Village is even worse because it doesn't skip Necropolis.

6. Your opponent is playing Ambassador.

And so are you.

7. The Estate trashing that exists is terrible, like nothing but Trade Route. (Somewhat redundant with #1)

This still applies:
If there is no trashing, the chances of actually skipping an Estate are still incredibly low (every time you play it, that is) and the impact of skipping an Estate is also pretty low.

Farming Village becomes useful once you start getting Provinces and Duchies. Walled Village is only useful if you find it in a dud hand, which you want to be avoiding in the first place.

Yeah, sometimes Farming Village might skip a card after you start greening. It still doesn't make any difference whatsoever. When you find Walled Village in a dud hand, its ability might actually avoid multiple other dud hands for you.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2015, 01:38:23 pm »
0

Wow, #50 is really low for Death Cart. +$5 is a LOT, even if it runs the risk of being a one-shot (but it usually isn't if you build your deck around it).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2015, 01:54:29 pm »
+5

Wow, #50 is really low for Death Cart. +$5 is a LOT, even if it runs the risk of being a one-shot (but it usually isn't if you build your deck around it).

It's really high for Death Cart. +$5 for 3 stop cards in your deck is awful.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2015, 02:13:03 pm »
+4

1. There's Estate trashing, but you haven't trashed all your Estates because you went for a different strategy that doesn't involve trashing your all your Estates.

Then you probably don't really want the Farming Village either, unless you're playing an alt-VP strategy with terminal gainers, in which case the splitter might actually be nice, but especially in that case, you'd rather have Walled Village.

2. You haven't managed matched your trashing card with your all your Estates yet.

The Farming Village isn't really going to help you do that.

3. Your opponent is playing a cursing attack.

And then you can trash the Curses with whatever card you trashed the Estates with.

4. You have victory cards in your deck that aren't Estates.

Not until the very end of the game, at which point you also have so many non-Victory cards that it still really doesn't do anything.

5. It is a Shelters game.

In which case Farming Village is even worse because it doesn't skip Necropolis.

6. Your opponent is playing Ambassador.

And so are you.

7. The Estate trashing that exists is terrible, like nothing but Trade Route. (Somewhat redundant with #1)

This still applies:
If there is no trashing, the chances of actually skipping an Estate are still incredibly low (every time you play it, that is) and the impact of skipping an Estate is also pretty low.

Farming Village becomes useful once you start getting Provinces and Duchies. Walled Village is only useful if you find it in a dud hand, which you want to be avoiding in the first place.

Yeah, sometimes Farming Village might skip a card after you start greening. It still doesn't make any difference whatsoever. When you find Walled Village in a dud hand, its ability might actually avoid multiple other dud hands for you.

Not a single one of these changes my point that your statement was objectively and trivially false. You said it literally does nothing, I listed a bunch of things it can do.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2015, 02:15:04 pm »
0

Not a single one of these changes my point that your statement was objectively and trivially false. You said it literally does nothing, I listed a bunch of things it can do.

And I pointed out why it can actually do none of those things.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2015, 03:16:39 pm »
+4

Not a single one of these changes my point that your statement was objectively and trivially false. You said it literally does nothing, I listed a bunch of things it can do.

And I pointed out why it can actually do none of those things.

You didn't. In Shelters games Farming Village can't skip Necropolis, and is thus worse. But it can still skip Hovel and Overgrown Estate. That's not "nothing". Literally.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2015, 03:17:26 pm »
+3

Not a single one of these changes my point that your statement was objectively and trivially false. You said it literally does nothing, I listed a bunch of things it can do.

And I pointed out why it can actually do none of those things.

How in the world do you think that? Let's just look at one example.

Quote
Quote
1. There's Estate trashing, but you haven't trashed all your Estates because you went for a different strategy that doesn't involve trashing your all your Estates.

Then you probably don't really want the Farming Village either, unless you're playing an alt-VP strategy with terminal gainers, in which case the splitter might actually be nice, but especially in that case, you'd rather have Walled Village.

Your response in no way whatsoever is pointing out that Farming Village cannot do anything in that situation. It is saying that you probably want a different strategy than the one you are playing. It's pointing out that in your opinion, Walled Village is a stronger option. It is NOT in any way saying that Farming Village doesn't skip past Estates when you have Estates in your deck.

The exact same thing applies to every one of your replies. Not a single one of them contradicts the statement that Farming Village literally does do something in those situations.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2015, 04:27:35 pm »
+4

yall forgetting that vanilla village would still be a top 30 $4 anyway
But they're comparing Farming Village to Walled Village. Awaclus is arguing that Walled Village is vanilla Village with a small +, and that Farming Village isn't even that most of the time.

Farming Village becomes useful once you start getting Provinces and Duchies. Walled Village is only useful if you find it in a dud hand, which you want to be avoiding in the first place.

i get that, but nobody's talking about how absurd that walled village ranking is.  single biggest disagreement i have with any of these so far

from what i've read, it seems like trashers were the most underrated class of cards a few years ago.  nowadays i think it's definitely villages.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2015, 04:42:25 pm »
+4

Yeah, Walled Village being this low is completely absurd.  The differences between the villages are mostly very small.  I think I had them all (except Wandering Minstrel and maybe one other?) between #30 and #20.  The fact that its extra bonus is not as nice as say Worker's Village's extra bonus is not enough to justify a difference in 20+ rankings (guessing Worker's Village will be way up there).

Rats seems too low to me.  While it does need support in order to not be completely useless (and even harmful), it finds that support reasonably often, and in many cases it's just completely bonkers (Apprentice, Bishop, Upgrade, Watchtower).  Also, I would speculate that some of the tokens from Adventures make it even more nuts (though I have not tried this myself).

Nomad Camp is way too high.  Like Woodcutter, the only real appeal to it is that it's +buy and maybe it's the only +buy card on the board.  Every now and then, you can do something clever with the on-gain ability, but it's only a very slight benefit, and I'm not sure it even justifies the $4 cost.  No way it's better than Rats, and I have trouble believing it's better than Talisman.

Death Cart also seems very overrated.  It's quite awful.  The best case scenario is that you're using it as payload with Fortress, and you're able to draw it with Fortress every time and you're over-drawing your deck so you don't need to worry about the extra Ruins.  I mean that's nice, then it's just terminal +$5, but that's a very specific case.  Without Fortress or Rats, it's pretty much useless.  It's $5 split over two cards, and you either have to trash a nice action for it (which often is not worth it, and when it is, only marginally), or else you have to trash a Ruins, which is pretty nice, but then you remember Death Cart is what gave you that Ruins in the first place.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2015, 05:09:16 pm »
+1

I think Bureaucrat, Spy, Walled Village and Rats should all be a bit higher than they are now.

B-Crat is not a rockstar, but it is useful more often then any other cards in the lowest tier.
Spy is always mediocre, but sometimes you want to increase your action density  - and here it is, the most mystical man in the world of Dominion!
Walled Village's ability is khem anybody used it recently? But it's a Village, slightly worse then a regular Village just because of being a bit more pricy.
And Rats are just so good when they are good - and that being with Butcher (!!), Apprentice, Salvager, Vineyards, Upgrade, Procession (no!), aand i forgot something else probably.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2015, 06:36:49 pm »
+4

I've had some success with Walled Village in a double Amb deck, I think WV was quite a lot better than other villages there. I rated Farming Village higher aswell though, which in retrospect doesn't make much sense to me.

Definitely agree about Nomad Camp, it not THAT much better than Woodcutter.

Why has nobody mentioned Feodum yet? It is waaaaay more situational than Rats, for example.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2015, 07:06:35 pm »
0

Man, all I have to say is $4 has some bad cards. Feodum is rarely good. You need a strong enabler.

Rats should be higher.

Baron should be lower.

Death Cart maybe should be lower. Really, the main reason to buy this is to lower piles or Vineyards.

Villages are always good. I feel some other less deserving cards are above it.

Haven't played much with Messenger, but my feeling is that the card is not much good.

I'm not the biggest fan of Nomad Camp. I know it's +Buy, but more often than not, when you want to hit $5, it just doesn't happen.

Anyway, why does $4 have so many yucky cards?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2015, 07:08:45 pm »
+1

death cart is also nice in nasty slogs, to be fair.  can be your only chance of landing a province toward the end in those games.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2015, 07:10:11 pm »
0

death cart is also nice in nasty slogs, to be fair.  can be your only chance of landing a province toward the end in those games.

True, but you just made your deck even sloggier by adding two crap cards to it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2015, 07:22:23 pm »
0

You didn't. In Shelters games Farming Village can't skip Necropolis, and is thus worse. But it can still skip Hovel and Overgrown Estate. That's not "nothing". Literally.

But you still have the trashing so you're going to trash them.

Your response in no way whatsoever is pointing out that Farming Village cannot do anything in that situation. It is saying that you probably want a different strategy than the one you are playing. It's pointing out that in your opinion, Walled Village is a stronger option. It is NOT in any way saying that Farming Village doesn't skip past Estates when you have Estates in your deck.

It is. Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2015, 08:37:02 pm »
+1

But you still have the trashing so you're going to trash them.

Okay, I am aware of that. The point remains that in some cases FV's ability has a nonzero benefit. Such as... before you play your trasher on the junk. Or after you are greening. Or, for a couple more salient examples, when you are using Apothecary or getting hit by Rabble.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2015, 09:18:47 pm »
0

Okay, I am aware of that. The point remains that in some cases FV's ability has a nonzero benefit. Such as... before you play your trasher on the junk. Or after you are greening. Or, for a couple more salient examples, when you are using Apothecary or getting hit by Rabble.

Apothecary, Rabble and other cases where your green cards tend to concentrate on top of your deck actually make Farming Village better than a vanilla Village. Outside of those cases, it is beneficial to think of it as literally just a $4 vanilla Village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2015, 09:43:25 pm »
0

Apothecary, Rabble and other cases where your green cards tend to concentrate on top of your deck actually make Farming Village better than a vanilla Village. Outside of those cases, it is beneficial to think of it as literally just a $4 vanilla Village.

I wouldn't disregard the drawing benefit. It can be a better card to add to a deck than silver even if you can't use the +actions.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2015, 09:53:56 pm »
0

Apothecary, Rabble and other cases where your green cards tend to concentrate on top of your deck actually make Farming Village better than a vanilla Village. Outside of those cases, it is beneficial to think of it as literally just a $4 vanilla Village.

I wouldn't disregard the drawing benefit. It can be a better card to add to a deck than silver even if you can't use the +actions.

Well, any cantrip can be a better card than Silver, but in those situations, I'd usually take Pearl Diver over FV if I really don't need the +actions for anything.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2015, 10:56:17 pm »
+4


It is. Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck.

You're saying that your entire argument is "if Farming Village isn't in your deck, then Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything at all"? Seriously??
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2015, 11:41:38 pm »
0


It is. Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck.

You're saying that your entire argument is "if Farming Village isn't in your deck, then Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything at all"? Seriously??

No. I'm saying that every time Farming Village is in your deck, its ability doesn't do anything at all.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2015, 01:11:49 am »
0


It is. Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck.

You're saying that your entire argument is "if Farming Village isn't in your deck, then Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything at all"? Seriously??

No. I'm saying that every time Farming Village is in your deck, its ability doesn't do anything at all.

That's not what you said just before... "Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck." Now you're saying it doesn't do anything if it is in your deck. Which is the statement that has clearly been proven false by numerous examples. All you have done is said that you think there are often likely stronger strategies available than the ones in which Farming Village helps. You have absolutely note contradicted a single one of my statements about examples of times when Farming Village's ability absolutely does do something.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #71 on: November 13, 2015, 02:27:51 am »
0


It is. Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck.

You're saying that your entire argument is "if Farming Village isn't in your deck, then Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything at all"? Seriously??

No. I'm saying that every time Farming Village is in your deck, its ability doesn't do anything at all.

That's not what you said just before... "Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck." Now you're saying it doesn't do anything if it is in your deck. Which is the statement that has clearly been proven false by numerous examples. All you have done is said that you think there are often likely stronger strategies available than the ones in which Farming Village helps. You have absolutely note contradicted a single one of my statements about examples of times when Farming Village's ability absolutely does do something.

Farming Village never does anything when it's in your deck because it never is in your deck when it could possibly do something. It shouldn't be a difficult concept.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2015, 02:44:28 am »
+6

Quote
Farming Village never does anything when it's in your deck because it never is in your deck when it could possibly do something. It shouldn't be a difficult concept.

Words like "literally never" have very specific meanings. Using them with different meanings, then doubling down when you're misunderstood, is not likely to win you many converts.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2015, 05:38:58 am »
0

Words like "literally never" have very specific meanings.

Okay, I guess you could get a Farming Village from your opponent's Swindler while playing Smithy+big money or something. That isn't really something you should take into account when rating cards, though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2015, 07:49:21 am »
+7

The extent to which you've gone to state your lack of preference for Farming Village is getting ridiculous. You'd pick up Pearl Diver over it? It literally never does anything? Come on, you have to know both of these are crazy. Even if you have enough villages I would pick up Farming Village over Pearl Diver just for insurance. And you've literally never played a game where you bought Villages when you couldn't trash Estates, or bought Villages in the face of Cursing attacks?

At a certain point you go from rational disagreement to irrational prejudice, and I think when you're saying Pearl Diver is better than a village that guarantees you drawing a useful card, you've gotten to that point. It's a minor benefit, we get it. You don't see this kind of passionate disagreement with the merits of, say, Mining Village, whose benefit is similarly minor (but still important). I don't get why you have such a strong opinion on this.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #75 on: November 13, 2015, 08:39:52 am »
0

To get away from the Farming Village discussion before it even came up:

How often do you use Trader successfully? I don't remember using it very often, and if I did I wasn't really happy with it. I put it in 10th last position, right before Rats which again, seems a lot more useful on average than Trader does.

That said, I tried Trader/Rats once. Once....
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #76 on: November 13, 2015, 08:42:25 am »
+1


It is. Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck.

You're saying that your entire argument is "if Farming Village isn't in your deck, then Farming Village's ability doesn't do anything at all"? Seriously??

No. I'm saying that every time Farming Village is in your deck, its ability doesn't do anything at all.

That's not what you said just before... "Farming Village doesn't skip over your Estates if you don't have it in your deck." Now you're saying it doesn't do anything if it is in your deck. Which is the statement that has clearly been proven false by numerous examples. All you have done is said that you think there are often likely stronger strategies available than the ones in which Farming Village helps. You have absolutely note contradicted a single one of my statements about examples of times when Farming Village's ability absolutely does do something.

Farming Village never does anything when it's in your deck because it never is in your deck when it could possibly do something. It shouldn't be a difficult concept.

This statement is flat-out false. Any time you buy a Farming Village, unless other weird stuff happens, Farming Village will be in your deck. So it is absolutely NOT "never in your deck." Maybe it's not ever in YOUR deck specifically. Well that's fine. It's in lots of other people's decks.

Do you seriously not understand the difference between "I think that buying Farming Village means you aren't following the best strategy available" and "Farming Village won't ever be in your deck"? Or are you just trolling?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 08:44:12 am by GendoIkari »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #77 on: November 13, 2015, 09:00:40 am »
0

To get away from the Farming Village discussion before it even came up:

How often do you use Trader successfully? I don't remember using it very often, and if I did I wasn't really happy with it. I put it in 10th last position, right before Rats which again, seems a lot more useful on average than Trader does.

That said, I tried Trader/Rats once. Once....
Never played it. You probably don't want more than 5 rats or so ever.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #78 on: November 13, 2015, 09:04:25 am »
0

The extent to which you've gone to state your lack of preference for Farming Village is getting ridiculous. You'd pick up Pearl Diver over it? It literally never does anything? Come on, you have to know both of these are crazy. Even if you have enough villages I would pick up Farming Village over Pearl Diver just for insurance. And you've literally never played a game where you bought Villages when you couldn't trash Estates, or bought Villages in the face of Cursing attacks?

At a certain point you go from rational disagreement to irrational prejudice, and I think when you're saying Pearl Diver is better than a village that guarantees you drawing a useful card, you've gotten to that point. It's a minor benefit, we get it. You don't see this kind of passionate disagreement with the merits of, say, Mining Village, whose benefit is similarly minor (but still important). I don't get why you have such a strong opinion on this.

Yes, I have played two games where I bought Farming Villages even though I didn't need splitters and in both games, I would have rather had Pearl Divers. Getting an extra Farming Village in a deck that already has other splitters that you need is definitely better than Pearl Diver a lot of the time, but you're still getting it for its vanilla Village effect, not for its nonexistent benefit over a vanilla Village.

And yes, I've literally never played a game with Estate trashing in the kingdom where I couldn't trash Estates. Well, aside from games where Dame Anna is the only trasher and it's my opponent who gets it, but that doesn't really matter because the point wasn't really about which cards are in the kingdom, but rather, which cards you can actually get. I also haven't played a game with Estate trashing available where Curse trashing wasn't available as well.

Farming Village doesn't guarantee you drawing a useful card, it still stops at Treasures. If it dug for a useful card, it would actually be pretty good.

Mining Village's benefit is not even close to being as minor as Farming Village's. An extra +$10 or so on your last turn makes a major difference as long as you have some +buys, skipping one Province per game if you're lucky doesn't make any difference at all.

I have a strong opinion because I used to agree with the consensus that Farming Village was better than Walled Village, then I played a few thousand more games of Dominion and realized that it was wrong, and now this list shows that the consensus is still just as wrong as it has always been. I'm trying to change it.

This statement is flat-out false. Any time you buy a Farming Village, unless other weird stuff happens, Farming Village will be in your deck. So it is absolutely NOT "never in your deck." Maybe it's not ever in YOUR deck specifically. Well that's fine. It's in lots of other people's decks.

Do you seriously not understand the difference between "I think that buying Farming Village means you aren't following the best strategy available" and "Farming Village won't ever be in your deck"? Or are you just trolling?

I don't care. Scout is probably super good in your deck if you open Mint/Estate and rush to win the Estate split as soon as you can, but stuff like that shouldn't be taken into account when ranking the cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #79 on: November 13, 2015, 09:16:19 am »
+9

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #80 on: November 13, 2015, 09:24:45 am »
0

How often do you use Trader successfully? I don't remember using it very often, and if I did I wasn't really happy with it. I put it in 10th last position, right before Rats which again, seems a lot more useful on average than Trader does.

Trader can be massively effective against junkers, especially in multiplayer games. It suits a variety of big deck, silver rich strategies as well. It isn't really an engine card so it won't be ranked well for two player games.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #81 on: November 13, 2015, 09:26:09 am »
0

How often do you use Trader successfully? I don't remember using it very often, and if I did I wasn't really happy with it. I put it in 10th last position, right before Rats which again, seems a lot more useful on average than Trader does.
I think Trader is a bottom-tier Estate trasher for engines (like Trade Route).  Storyteller works well with a bunch of Silvers, so that's a synergy.  Apprentice + Trader seems decent.  Use Trader to trash Estates.  Use apprentice to trash Trader (when finished) and Silvers.

Trader is really solid in slogs and big money.  Trash Estates for two Silvers apiece, trash colliding Traders for four Silvers.  Trash Silver for three Silvers.  Even if you don't use the reaction much, Trader puts enough Silver in your deck to dwarf what junkers can hand out (including the hard-to-counter Ill-Gotten Gains).  And there's a clear Feodum synergy.  On some boards (mostly those with strong junking and weak trashing), I expect Trader to be a good card.  I think it's about in the correct spot.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #82 on: November 13, 2015, 09:30:04 am »
+1

I don't care. Scout is probably super good in your deck if you open Mint/Estate and rush to win the Estate split as soon as you can, but stuff like that shouldn't be taken into account when ranking the cards.

Are you completely unaware that this entire discussion hasn't had anything to do with how good Farming Village is, or where it should be ranked? It has been completely about your clearly false statement that with trashing, Farming Village "literally, in the literal sense of the word literally, doesn't do anything at all", and your continued refusal to admit that the statement is obviously false, as shown by counterexamples. No one is even arguing with you that Farming Village is good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #83 on: November 13, 2015, 09:42:47 am »
+8

This seems applicable:

So, you are verifying once and for all what an incredible waste of time it is for anyone to try to argue about this with you.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #84 on: November 13, 2015, 09:54:54 am »
0

Are you completely unaware that this entire discussion hasn't had anything to do with how good Farming Village is, or where it should be ranked? It has been completely about your clearly false statement that with trashing, Farming Village "literally, in the literal sense of the word literally, doesn't do anything at all", and your continued refusal to admit that the statement is obviously false, as shown by counterexamples. No one is even arguing with you that Farming Village is good.

I have already admitted that the statement is false when your opponent Swindles your $4 big money terminal into a Farming Village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #85 on: November 13, 2015, 10:31:37 am »
0

How often do you use Trader successfully? I don't remember using it very often, and if I did I wasn't really happy with it. I put it in 10th last position, right before Rats which again, seems a lot more useful on average than Trader does.

That said, I tried Trader/Rats once. Once....

I'm a big Trader fan. It's fun when the board doesn't have Colonies and no super engine components.

It's got a special place in my heart with lots of cheap +buy on the board. Buy coppers, gain silver instead = wooo!
I also like Trader with Embargo. Embargo Province, reveal and buy for a Province and Silver.
Though I'm not saying it's good.

Now I want to try Trader / Rats.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2015, 11:17:55 am »
0

Trader's good against Mountebank--instead of getting two junk cards, you're getting Silvers. Plus, Trader improves your economy in the early game to make it easier to get Mountebanks in the first place.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #87 on: November 13, 2015, 11:54:47 am »
0

Are you completely unaware that this entire discussion hasn't had anything to do with how good Farming Village is, or where it should be ranked? It has been completely about your clearly false statement that with trashing, Farming Village "literally, in the literal sense of the word literally, doesn't do anything at all", and your continued refusal to admit that the statement is obviously false, as shown by counterexamples. No one is even arguing with you that Farming Village is good.

I have already admitted that the statement is false when your opponent Swindles your $4 big money terminal into a Farming Village.

The statement is false without any extra "when" or "if". The statement was that Farming Village does nothing in your deck. In fact, it does do something in your deck, whether it was added to your deck by Swindler, or bought with coins, or gained with a gainer. But Yuma and Donald X are spot on here.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2015, 12:09:54 pm »
0

You know what, I'm actually going to agree with Awaclus that Pearl Driver's put-bottom-card-on-top effect is useful more often than Farming Village's draw-a-Treasure-or-Action. Plus Pearl Diver costs less.

The rest of the discussion is an argument over usage of the word literraly. I don't think Awaclus should have used the word literally when he did.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #89 on: November 13, 2015, 12:52:05 pm »
+1

Trader's good against Mountebank--instead of getting two junk cards, you're getting Silvers. Plus, Trader improves your economy in the early game to make it easier to get Mountebanks in the first place.
Trader doesn't help early game economy. It helps late game endurance. If you want to get mountebank asap you should open double silver.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #90 on: November 13, 2015, 01:36:39 pm »
+1

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #91 on: November 13, 2015, 01:43:32 pm »
+1

Ugh, all the Adventures cards besides Miser seem lower than I expected. Especially Ranger feels rather strong in engines where you can set your token up...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #92 on: November 13, 2015, 01:46:58 pm »
+7

Okay, Mining Village is *definitely* better than Farming Village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #93 on: November 13, 2015, 01:48:43 pm »
0

Okay, Mining Village is *definitely* better than Farming Village.

Agreed; that's surprising.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2015, 02:09:11 pm »
0

Ugh, all the Adventures cards besides Miser seem lower than I expected. Especially Ranger feels rather strong in engines where you can set your token up...

The thing about Ranger that gets me is that it seems worse to have two Ranger than to have two Smithy on average. I mean if you can ensure the token is flipped favorably at end of turn the initial +5 boost is huge, but in the long run you're getting +2.5 cards per Ranger.

I'm very surprised Mining Village isn't better than Farming Village, and also that Silk Road fell below Gardens.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #95 on: November 13, 2015, 02:14:49 pm »
0

Okay, Mining Village is *definitely* better than Farming Village.
Farming Village feels better, because sometimes you're skipping an Estate and think "hey, super!".
Mining Village isn't that flashy until you start trashing them.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #96 on: November 13, 2015, 02:18:43 pm »
+1

mission is criminally underrated; that card is so good
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #97 on: November 13, 2015, 02:32:00 pm »
+3

The thing about Ranger that gets me is that it seems worse to have two Ranger than to have two Smithy on average. I mean if you can ensure the token is flipped favorably at end of turn the initial +5 boost is huge, but in the long run you're getting +2.5 cards per Ranger.
Playing two Rangers also provides +2 Buy, which is very helpful in an engine.  And while I agree that Ranger isn't as valuable as Smithy, I believe Ranger is ranked too low.

I'm very surprised Mining Village isn't better than Farming Village, and also that Silk Road fell below Gardens.
I think Gardens is quite a bit better than Silk Road.  It's a rare game where Gardens aren't worth at least 3 VP as long as somebody buys them.  It takes quite a lot for Silk Road to be worth 3 VP (especially when initial Estates are trashed).  And it's easy to transition to Gardens lategame without much thought (they're basically 4-cost Duchies).  Silk Road demands more investment.

Remaining reactions:
Miser is way too high.  Not all deck thinners are good (see Trade Route).  Miser is, IMO, worse.
Pilgrimage is far too low.  It's a fantastic gainer.  For two 4-coin installments, you can gain a King's Court, Grand Market, and Bank!  Okay, that's not the average case, but Pilgrimage is often awesome.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #98 on: November 13, 2015, 02:40:51 pm »
0

mission is criminally underrated; that card is so good

Isn't it worthless unless there's a gainer or curser around?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #99 on: November 13, 2015, 02:45:13 pm »
+1

Ugh, all the Adventures cards besides Miser seem lower than I expected. Especially Ranger feels rather strong in engines where you can set your token up...

The thing about Ranger that gets me is that it seems worse to have two Ranger than to have two Smithy on average. I mean if you can ensure the token is flipped favorably at end of turn the initial +5 boost is huge, but in the long run you're getting +2.5 cards per Ranger.

I'm very surprised Mining Village isn't better than Farming Village, and also that Silk Road fell below Gardens.

But having the first ranger draw 5cards is a lot more reliable than getting two smithies in play (in an engine, that is)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #100 on: November 13, 2015, 02:50:24 pm »
0

Pilgrimage doesn't provide a +buy. That's a notable strike against it since you need a 2 turn investment. It means you'll need an engine with spare buys to make use of it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #101 on: November 13, 2015, 02:57:01 pm »
+4

mission is criminally underrated; that card is so good

Isn't it worthless unless there's a gainer or curser around?

Off the top of my head: 1) It cycles 5 cards 2) You can trash on a Mission 3) You can play attacks like Militia 4) You can buy Events 5) You can play Travellers 6) You can set tokens 7) You can put Duration cards in play for next turn 8) There's more

I'm not sure where your analysis came from; there are tons of things that can be done with a second turn that do not involve buying cards. Mission is easily in the top 15 $4 options, probably deserving to be higher (I had it in the top 10). I think by next list people will have come around.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #102 on: November 13, 2015, 03:07:53 pm »
+1

mission is criminally underrated; that card is so good

Isn't it worthless unless there's a gainer or curser around?

PPE: Aw, Ninja'd.

You can also:

Trash
Play Durations
Buy other Events
Attack
Get Coin Tokens
Play Prince
Play Monument
Play Native Village
Play Embargo
Put things on your Tavern Mat

I think Gardens is quite a bit better than Silk Road.  It's a rare game where Gardens aren't worth at least 3 VP as long as somebody buys them.  It takes quite a lot for Silk Road to be worth 3 VP (especially when initial Estates are trashed).  And it's easy to transition to Gardens lategame without much thought (they're basically 4-cost Duchies).  Silk Road demands more investment.

Agree. It's often easy to stuff your deck with a bunch of cards. They can even be useful cards sometimes. Stuffing it with a bunch of green cards is harder.

Farming Village over Mining Village, what is up with that?

Cutpurse seems way too low. That attack hurts, even worse than Militia early on. I have it at #23/57.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 03:17:11 pm by singletee »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #103 on: November 13, 2015, 04:55:22 pm »
0

mission is criminally underrated; that card is so good

Isn't it worthless unless there's a gainer or curser around?

Off the top of my head: 1) It cycles 5 cards 2) You can trash on a Mission 3) You can play attacks like Militia 4) You can buy Events 5) You can play Travellers 6) You can set tokens 7) You can put Duration cards in play for next turn 8) There's more

I'm not sure where your analysis came from; there are tons of things that can be done with a second turn that do not involve buying cards. Mission is easily in the top 15 $4 options, probably deserving to be higher (I had it in the top 10). I think by next list people will have come around.

Fair enough! I highly doubt you'd ever spend the buy and $4 for just the 5 card cycling, but the rest, probably.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #104 on: November 13, 2015, 06:50:40 pm »
0

Pilgrimage and Mission are way too low. What's up with that?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #105 on: November 14, 2015, 10:29:02 am »
+1

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #106 on: November 14, 2015, 10:49:06 am »
0

Advisor and Procession moved up to about where I have them. Nice.

I noticed I put Transmogrify in my top 10. That's probably a major overestimation of its rank.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #107 on: November 14, 2015, 10:53:00 am »
0

Moneylender should be higher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #108 on: November 14, 2015, 10:56:46 am »
0

Moneylender should be higher.
I have it at #23. I'm willing to accept that it can be even higher than that.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #109 on: November 14, 2015, 11:44:23 am »
+3

Advisor and Procession moved up to about where I have them. Nice.

I noticed I put Transmogrify in my top 10. That's probably a major overestimation of its rank.

I wouldn't say Transmogrify is top 10, but I think it is underrated in this list. It's a bit of a difficult card to use / grasp, but the ability to switch what engine component you have on the fly is remarkable. A same-turn Remodel that changes your early Silvers into villages and draw cards in the midgame is just so potent.

I think Duplicate is also just a smidge underrated here. It's also a bit hard to get a grasp on, but it really comes in handy.

Otherwise I'm agreeing with the way things are going on this list. Well, Cutpurse is a little low, but I guess the -1 Coin tokens are almost strictly better.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #110 on: November 14, 2015, 12:37:18 pm »
0

Good to see Procession moved upwards. I wanted to mention that I did not put it at #1... it's in my top 10 though, I'm still a fan boy ;)
I guess Procession might be the craziest 4$ card around. It's not always great but it might be good in more situations people are aware of. And sometimes it's just bonkers.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 12:59:23 pm by assemble_me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #111 on: November 14, 2015, 12:52:41 pm »
+2

Wow.  I have some substantial deviations from this list, now.

Quarry: I have this in my top 10.  Without +buy, Quarry is a Gold for most of the game.  Opening with a Gold is pretty good, it turns out.  But Quarry really shines when paired with a cheap source of +buy.  With two Quarries in play, you can use (almost) all of your buys on 5-cost actions.  Combine Quarry with Haggler, Talisman, or Border Village purchases for insane results.  Sure, Quarry is a bad card once you want to start greening.  But it's a great target for most Estate trashers (Remodel, Salvager, Bishop, Transmogrify, Remake, etc...).  Convert that Quarry into a Duchy, Gold, or engine piece, depending on your need.

Remodel > Salvager: I see these cards as serving similar purposes: Estate trashing, removing undesired cards, and generating victory points.
Estate Trashing: Remodel is better when there are multiple good engine pieces that cost 3 or 4 coins.  Salvager is better when it's important to reach 5 coins.
Removing Undesired Cards (fast trashers, junkers after junk is gone, gained Silvers, Rats, etc...): In the mid-game, with Remodel one is likely to be able to get two 5-6 cost cards after trashing one of these undesired cards.  The advantage of Salvager is flexibility.  If you want a power 7-cost card, you can get that.  If you get an unusually strong or weak hand, you can adapt to that and make the best of your coins with an additional buy.  Remodel bonus: gaining 2-cost engine pieces while trashing Curses, Ruins, or Copper.
Generating Victory Points: Remodeling Gold into Province is well known and powerful.  If you expect to have Golds or 6-cost cards, Remodel is great for grabbing extra Provinces in the endgame.  Salvager cannot generate as many victory points as Remodel in the best case scenario, but it can help generate 8-coin hands by trashing another action card (whereas with Remodel, you may have to settle for two Duchies or worse).
Which is better depends on the board and one's strategy, but I tend to prefer Remodel.

Fortress > Plaza: Both are villages; let's examine the additional benefit.  Many boards contain a decent trash-for-benefit card that you want to use for Estate trashing (like the above-mentioned cards).  There is a period of time between Estate trashing and victory card gaining where these cards are looking for something worthwhile to do.  Enter Fortress: the village that always provides a good target for trash-for-benefit.  A really good target.  There are other trash-for-benefit cards that work well with Fortress (Procession, Apprentice, Stonemason).  Fortress is a good counter to trashing attacks.  Fortress is also good to have with cards where trashing might be undesirable (Mercenary, Trade Route, Rats).  Fortress can also be unusually put in hand mid-turn by cards like Watchtower (with gainer), Hermit, Doctor, and Lookout.  Plaza, on the other hand, almost always provides a small benefit (coin smoothing) - the exception is in the presence of fast trashers.  This is a decent benefit, but nothing special.  Plaza is only great in conjunction with draw-to-X cards (and Menagerie).  Unfortunately, there are only four such cards - compared to dozens of cards that work well with Fortress.

Advisor > Caravan: Both provide a nonterminal two cards.  Advisor provides the worst 2/3 cards immediately.  Caravan provides two average-quality cards - one this turn and one the next.  Advisor provides a little faster cycling, at the downside of being unable to play one's key card(s) as often.  But Caravan itself misses more shuffles than Advisor.  The deciding factor for me, though, is that Advisor gets better as one approaches being able to draw one's whole deck; Caravan gets worse.  If I'm playing with Advisor or Caravan, I generally expect to reach that point - and sooner rather than later.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #112 on: November 14, 2015, 01:05:35 pm »
+2

Salvager is better when it's important to reach 5 coins.

Well, that's usually the only difference that matters.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #113 on: November 14, 2015, 01:24:16 pm »
+6

Remodel bonus: gaining 2-cost engine pieces while trashing Curses, Ruins, or Copper.
Note that this is an argument in favor of Salvager and against Remodel on any board where there aren't 2-costs that you want as many of as possible.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #114 on: November 14, 2015, 01:53:56 pm »
0

Remodel bonus: gaining 2-cost engine pieces while trashing Curses, Ruins, or Copper.
Note that this is an argument in favor of Salvager and against Remodel on any board where there aren't 2-costs that you want as many of as possible.
There is some truth to this, but it is unfair to say "as many of as possible"; trashing 0-cost cards is rarely a tertiary priority when I buy Remodel; I don't expect to do so often.  On the flip side: very rarely do I want to use Salvager to trash a single Copper from my hand.  And I'm not going to feel great about using Salvager to trash a Curse, but it could happen.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #115 on: November 14, 2015, 02:34:14 pm »
0

Remodel bonus: gaining 2-cost engine pieces while trashing Curses, Ruins, or Copper.
Note that this is an argument in favor of Salvager and against Remodel on any board where there aren't 2-costs that you want as many of as possible.
There is some truth to this, but it is unfair to say "as many of as possible"; trashing 0-cost cards is rarely a tertiary priority when I buy Remodel; I don't expect to do so often.  On the flip side: very rarely do I want to use Salvager to trash a single Copper from my hand.  And I'm not going to feel great about using Salvager to trash a Curse, but it could happen.

I want to use Salvager to trash a single Copper whenever it doesn't align with an Estate.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #116 on: November 14, 2015, 08:38:16 pm »
+2

reminder that with any decent trashing, envoy is basically a $4 hunting grounds

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #117 on: November 14, 2015, 08:41:32 pm »
0

reminder that with any decent trashing, envoy is basically a $4 hunting grounds

I particularly disagree with Envoy being below Smithy, but people seem to weigh Envoy's drawback into evaluating it more than I do.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #118 on: November 14, 2015, 08:58:34 pm »
0

to be fair, it was your posting that got me to take a closer look at it.  i still don't get it in practice yet, but i see the potential now at least.  greening scares me, i will say!

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #119 on: November 15, 2015, 04:59:57 am »
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Envoy is pretty good in a reliable engine. The problem is that building a reliable engine with Envoy is a lot more difficult than building it with Smithy.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #120 on: November 15, 2015, 08:27:47 am »
0

Envoy is really good and I rated it much higher. As a community we did good with the $2 and $3s but I feel a lot of $4s are way of for some reason
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #121 on: November 15, 2015, 09:55:37 am »
+1

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #122 on: November 15, 2015, 10:02:19 am »
0

I'm surprised Monument dropped as much as it did.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #123 on: November 15, 2015, 10:06:11 am »
0

I'm glad to see the Sky Rats (i.e. Magpies) made it into the top 11!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #124 on: November 15, 2015, 10:12:00 am »
+1

Throne Room and Procession should be closer.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #125 on: November 15, 2015, 10:35:37 am »
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I think the engine components on Part 5 (other than Throne Room, which is pretty much fine where it is) should be higher. I like that Bishop, Monument and Caravan dropped, though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #126 on: November 15, 2015, 10:59:07 am »
0

I'm not sure Marauder should be this much lower than Sea Hag, or that it should be lower than Sea Hag at all, but all in all I'm okay with these rankings.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #127 on: November 15, 2015, 11:05:11 am »
0

I'm not sure Marauder should be this much lower than Sea Hag, or that it should be lower than Sea Hag at all, but all in all I'm okay with these rankings.

Well, we should have seen Sea Hag already. I think Marauder's ranking is fine, I only had it slightly lower.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #128 on: November 15, 2015, 11:27:11 am »
0

dangit sea hag not dropping as much as i thought

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #129 on: November 15, 2015, 11:32:01 am »
0

I'm also in the Marauder > Sea Hag camp.  Marauder > Militia, too, I think.

I'm most surprised that Bridge is in the top 11.  Certainly, it is one of the best cards on the board in some kingdoms (generally in the presence of King's Court or Royal Carriage), but those boards are pretty rare.  Usually, it's really hard to combine more than two Bridges together.  It's never a bad card, but on most boards it's merely good.

I'm also surprised that Bishop isn't in the top 10.  I can't even remember a board where Bishop wasn't a part of the optimal engine payload.  Plus, it's an ambiguously good Estate trasher (ambiguous because it helps your opponents trash, of course).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #130 on: November 15, 2015, 11:52:01 am »
0

I'm most surprised that Bridge is in the top 11.  Certainly, it is one of the best cards on the board in some kingdoms (generally in the presence of King's Court or Royal Carriage), but those boards are pretty rare.  Usually, it's really hard to combine more than two Bridges together.  It's never a bad card, but on most boards it's merely good.

Bridge is incredibly powerful. Whenever it's in the kingdom, you want to go to almost any lengths to build the engine. Usually, it's somehow possible to make it work, and when it is, it's the best strategy on the board.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #131 on: November 15, 2015, 11:56:11 am »
0

I'm OK with Hag being in the top 10; it will take time for voters to see the light. I just hope it's not in the top 5 anymore.

For the record I personally think Hag is better than Marauder, if only slightly. Debilitating the next turn early is usually more relevant than Marauder's slow economy boost. The two are surely close, though, so I think it could go either way and the actual order does not matter much. I had Sea Hag at 13, YW at 14, and Marauder at 19, but my bias is likely showing.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #132 on: November 15, 2015, 12:02:09 pm »
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I'm OK with Hag being in the top 10; it will take time for voters to see the light. I just hope it's not in the top 5 anymore.

For the record I personally think Hag is better than Marauder, if only slightly. Debilitating the next turn early is usually more relevant than Marauder's slow economy boost. The two are surely close, though, so I think it could go either way and the actual order does not matter much. I had Sea Hag at 13, YW at 14, and Marauder at 19, but my bias is likely showing.

Young Witch is definitely better than Sea Hag.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #133 on: November 15, 2015, 12:04:33 pm »
+1

bishop early is just too big of an opportunity cost given how much it helps your opponent.  i find that it's better to get it in the midgame where you can play it more often, use it on bigger targets (e.g. those early silvers you no longer need), and be less likely to help your opponent.

and there are lots of games that end too quickly for bishop to be a big factor.  any megaturn engine, a lot of other engines (either through explosiveness for provinces, or 3-pile endings with mirrors), governor games, plenty of butcher games, etc.

as for bridge, it's easier to string a bunch of those together than you think. hermit or native village alone usually makes the megaturn the way to go.  throne room and even procession make it workable with 3-4 bridges.  and even if you can't get a true megaturn, there are certainly a lot of engines that can play 3 or 4 of them...and that still counts for a lot in terms of 3-pile wins.  that isn't even mentioning that 1 or 2 bridges is still nice payload if that's all your engine can handle.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #134 on: November 15, 2015, 12:40:29 pm »
+1

I think Militia is too high.

Also Sea Hag>>YW
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #135 on: November 15, 2015, 01:10:04 pm »
+4

So maybe I'm a bit out of the loop, but what's with the sudden hate on Sea Hag? It still cripples engines without strong trashing, is a cheap curser and even mucks up their next turn a little. I think it was still in my top 5, for sure.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #136 on: November 15, 2015, 01:40:02 pm »
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Port is amazing! Two villages for the cost of one is really really good. It's so good I think that it will go up a ton after adventures goes online. Why is smithy so high? Smithy and envoy should be closer. They are pretty close in power level.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #137 on: November 15, 2015, 02:53:19 pm »
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Port is amazing! Two villages for the cost of one is really really good.
True, but you only get the benefit on buy.  Port anti-synergizes with gainers.  I think Port is where it belongs: right next to Worker's Village.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #138 on: November 15, 2015, 03:36:33 pm »
0

So maybe I'm a bit out of the loop, but what's with the sudden hate on Sea Hag? It still cripples engines without strong trashing, is a cheap curser and even mucks up their next turn a little. I think it was still in my top 5, for sure.

it's just a fad. i still have her at #1. besides 5-2 on an IGG board, she's the only way to get a curse in the opponent's deck on the second shuffle, and p.s., splitting 5-2 on an IGG board is awesome.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #139 on: November 15, 2015, 03:44:10 pm »
+1

So maybe I'm a bit out of the loop, but what's with the sudden hate on Sea Hag? It still cripples engines without strong trashing, is a cheap curser and even mucks up their next turn a little. I think it was still in my top 5, for sure.

it's just a fad. i still have her at #1. besides 5-2 on an IGG board, she's the only way to get a curse in the opponent's deck on the second shuffle, and p.s., splitting 5-2 on an IGG board is awesome.
the thing about it, lookout will completely cancel out one play of sea hag and you come out ahead because of the discard and +1 action. man, lookout's not even good
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 05:35:21 pm by schadd »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #140 on: November 15, 2015, 03:45:52 pm »
+6

the thing about, lookout will completely cancel out one play of sea hag and you come out ahead because of the discard and +1 action. man, lookout's not even good

similarly, Counting House counters Ambassador, but we do not conclude that Ambassador is bad.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #141 on: November 15, 2015, 03:47:42 pm »
0

Port is amazing! Two villages for the cost of one is really really good.
True, but you only get the benefit on buy.  Port anti-synergizes with gainers.  I think Port is where it belongs: right next to Worker's Village.
Have you played many games with port?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #142 on: November 15, 2015, 04:57:21 pm »
0

So maybe I'm a bit out of the loop, but what's with the sudden hate on Sea Hag? It still cripples engines without strong trashing, is a cheap curser and even mucks up their next turn a little. I think it was still in my top 5, for sure.

it's just a fad. i still have her at #1. besides 5-2 on an IGG board, she's the only way to get a curse in the opponent's deck on the second shuffle, and p.s., splitting 5-2 on an IGG board is awesome.
the thing about, lookout will completely cancel out one play of sea hag and you come out ahead because of the discard and +1 action. man, lookout's not even good

Sigh. I call Poe's law.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #143 on: November 15, 2015, 06:23:32 pm »
+1

the thing about, lookout will completely cancel out one play of sea hag and you come out ahead because of the discard and +1 action. man, lookout's not even good

similarly, Counting House counters Ambassador, but we do not conclude that Ambassador is bad.
that's not what i said, necessarily. i said that the thing that happens when you play sea hag is completely negated by the thing that happens when you play lookout; in practice, ambassador beats the snot out of counting house, and it only gets worse when there's more cards of substance, and the strategy where you only get sea hags beats the snot out of only lookout, but remember that sea hag tries to take a card away from next turn and subsequent draws where you get the curse again, while costing a card and an action this turn, which, early on, means, sorry bud, what could've gotten a wharf this turn just gets its younger brother the fishing village. lookout, which is by all means a mediocre card, adds a card (on average, getting rid of an estate in favor of maybe drawing a copper or what have you) to next turn and future turns where you would have gotten that thing you trashed. in a good bit of cases they will completely cancel each other out.
there are legitimate empirical reasons, more elegant than my thing, that dictate that sea hag is a lot better than lookout (sea hag has a guaranteed ammunition of 10 curses, lookout might only work out 3 times with full efficiency and then less in the future, -1 vp, etc.) and, all being said, i contentedly have sea hag at #8 among 4s, perhaps higher, because there's a lot that it just doesn't let happen, but, man, sea hag doesn't help you at all, a lot of good cards do.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #144 on: November 15, 2015, 06:37:07 pm »
+1

I'm glad Throne Room got the boost it deserved. I'm also very glad not to see Herald yet. I wonder where my #1 has worked itself up to?

Young Witch is already too high though. I think it's a lot worse than Sea Hag - it can be blocked by a Bane, doesn't leave the Curse on top of your opponent's deck, and the sifting is way too weak to make up for it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #145 on: November 15, 2015, 07:01:54 pm »
+1

Sea Hag is still good, but the community is starting to treat it more like Bishop. It's definitely worth consideration every board, but you may not need to open it if you can do something better.

Monument feels low, but not by much. It should still be a few ranks higher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #146 on: November 15, 2015, 08:29:20 pm »
+2

All junkers are worse with the increased numbers of trashers in the later expansions. If you are playing with just Seaside and Base, as I started out, then sea hag will still look pretty good!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #147 on: November 15, 2015, 08:41:02 pm »
0

Young Witch is already too high though. I think it's a lot worse than Sea Hag - it can be blocked by a Bane, doesn't leave the Curse on top of your opponent's deck, and the sifting is way too weak to make up for it.

The sifting is great and way more than makes up for the advantages that Sea Hag has. Sea Hag is awful at hitting $5, Young Witch is actually pretty good at it (YW/Silver hits it exactly once unless YW misses the reshuffle), and that makes a far more important difference. Sea Hag is ignorable more often than not, Young Witch is a must-buy in most kingdoms.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #148 on: November 15, 2015, 09:07:24 pm »
+7

All of these rankings just make me want to play with adventures.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #149 on: November 15, 2015, 09:20:44 pm »
0

Militia seems way too high to me.  An often useful card, but a game-changer?  I dunno, everything else in the top 11 is either really powerful or really important to fight for a split of, or both.  Sea Hag is probably the next card with the biggest argument not to be here, but hey, I had it at #6.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #150 on: November 15, 2015, 09:23:17 pm »
+1

Young Witch is already too high though. I think it's a lot worse than Sea Hag - it can be blocked by a Bane, doesn't leave the Curse on top of your opponent's deck, and the sifting is way too weak to make up for it.

Sea Hag is awful at hitting $5, Young Witch is actually pretty good at it (YW/Silver hits it exactly once unless YW misses the reshuffle), and that makes a far more important difference.

This doesn't look right. For example, your Young Witch hand might draw 5-6 coppers and 0-1 estates (and you need to discard two cards, so you don't hit 5). Your other hand has 1 Silver + 1-2 coppers and you don't hit 5 there either.

Moat/Silver is guaranteed to hit $5 unless your Moat misses the reshuffle. Power opening!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #151 on: November 15, 2015, 11:21:31 pm »
0

This doesn't look right. For example, your Young Witch hand might draw 5-6 coppers and 0-1 estates (and you need to discard two cards, so you don't hit 5). Your other hand has 1 Silver + 1-2 coppers and you don't hit 5 there either.

Oh right, that's true. It's still significantly better at hitting $5 than Sea Hag, though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #152 on: November 16, 2015, 01:08:32 am »
0

My big differences:
Death Cart: I had it about ~27. It just makes it so easy to hit $8. I want to believe it's bad, but I seem to lose whenever I try to ignore it. (maybe it's just cause I'm not that good a player...)

Silk Road: I had it about ~64. It takes way too much to get it to be worth 3 or more. I don't think I can remember playing a game when it was really good.

Pilgrimage: I had about ~14. I've only played with it twice so far, but it seems really good.

Remodel / Salvager: I had Remodel ~29 and Salvager ~44.

I had Ranger, Envoy, and Plaza in the top 10. I think Plaza is the second best of the $4 villages (In restrospect these three shouldn't be quite as high as I put them, but I think they're significantly underrated on average).

I had Bishop #5 and Monument more than 10 ranks lower. I don't see how Bishop could be considered lower than Monument.

I had Militia #15.

Jack of All Trades I had in the 20s, probably because I almost always go for some kind of enginey deck.

(Looking back at my rankings now, I think they're kinda terrible and wish I could redo them -I think we should've had more time. I'm only listing the big ranking differences here that I mostly still agree with.)

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #153 on: November 16, 2015, 01:39:13 am »
+5

My beef with Bishop is that you are helping your opponent at no cost to them. The cost to you is a terminal action that gives +$1. Yes, it gives points, but still, why do I want to help my opponent again?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #154 on: November 16, 2015, 02:05:13 am »
+1

Fortress should be higher :(
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #155 on: November 16, 2015, 02:17:54 am »
+2

Jack of All Trades I had in the 20s, probably because I almost always go for some kind of enginey deck.

Jack is still extremely good in engines.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #156 on: November 16, 2015, 02:30:40 am »
+2

My beef with Bishop is that you are helping your opponent at no cost to them. The cost to you is a terminal action that gives +$1. Yes, it gives points, but still, why do I want to help my opponent again?
Well, in Bishop's case, I like it for long sloggy games where the accumulated points actually matter. And there's the fun of playing a hand size reducer before Bishop so your opponent has to decide between not trashing and playing a 2-card hand.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #157 on: November 16, 2015, 04:20:04 am »
+4

My beef with Bishop is that you are helping your opponent at no cost to them. The cost to you is a terminal action that gives +$1. Yes, it gives points, but still, why do I want to help my opponent again?

The best feeling in the world is when you are on one of these high pressure fast boards where the goal is to line up key cards quickly, and then your opponent opens Bishop.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #158 on: November 16, 2015, 04:28:35 am »
0

Well, all those last comments are some of the reasons why I think Bishop should be quite a bit lower. I have it in my twenties. I think it's nice sometimes for some extra points and sometimes you have these special decks (golden deck, Bishop-Fortress etc) but it's not really a trasher.

On the other hand, I don't think I'm great with Bishop so maybe it's only me.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #159 on: November 16, 2015, 04:49:35 am »
+1

Well, some boards aren't particularly slow, but not particularly fast either and I found that in those games, the points from Bishop are also quite helpful. Another upside is that it gives you some extra late game options.

I also realized $4 is a pretty awkward price point. The cards are helpful, but definitely not great. The difference between $4 and $5 really shows when scrolling through this list. At least the $3's have some unique powerful cards.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 04:52:07 am by Davio »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #160 on: November 16, 2015, 07:45:30 am »
+20

Time for this thing again. I didn't rank Tournament, and I'll only talk about cards where my ranking was more than 10 spots off from the average. I'll try to group these together, since there are some similarities.

"But Adam, why are all the ranks you claim you made one off from the list in the bottom of this post?"

I'm assuming that I just put Tournament right where the average is so the comparisons I make here make more sense. Or something. I dunno, I did the thing with the numbers. Counting is hard.

I ranked Mining Village 16th, here it's ranked 37th.
I ranked Farming Village 18th, here it's ranked 34th.
I ranked Walled Village 34th, here it's ranked 47th.


It seems I like Villages a lot better than you guys. I have Walled Village criminally underranked, actually. Do you guys know how good +1 Card/+2 Actions is? It's like super-duper-amazeballs. No longer are you limited to one terminal action per turn. Nay, now you can play as many terminals EVERY TURN as you can get villages, PLUS ONE! Walled and Farming Village should be right next to each other on the rankings, IMO, and that should be around 20th place. Seriously, villages are amazing, you guys should try them out sometime :P

I ranked Pilgrimage 58th, here it's ranked 41st.

Pilgrimage really costs $8 and 2 Buys, where you can't actually pay all of that cost on one turn most of the time. It's so expensive that it's so rarely better than just buying those cards you wanted to begin with, and when it is better, it's not much better at all. You really need to be pinched hard on gains to make this work, and in that case, engine building usually just isn't worth it. I may have overrated this card, actually.

I ranked Horse Traders 47th, here it's ranked 32nd.

Looking back, I clearly underrated this guy, but I think it's overrated here for sure. Where should it be? Umm, somewhere between #32 and #47. Yeah.

I ranked Duplicate 39th, here it's ranked 26th.

This one is pretty close. Duplicate sure is good but when do you pick it up? You certainly almost never want to open with it and it's usually awkward to buy it knowing you've bought a Curse for one shuffle. A tough card to play for sure.

I ranked Quarry 38th, here it's ranked 22nd.

38th? Wow, what was I on? Looks like I really borked this one :-[

I ranked Bridge 36th, here it's ranked 11+

I don't see how 11+ is appropriate for this card. Maybe I was a little harsh but there are so many amazing cards and a lot of times Bridge just isn't that good. It's a great payload but you have to draw it and have the actions to play it. This guy belongs around 25-30 IMO, definitely not among the most elite cards at this price point.

I ranked Sea Hag 35th, here it's ranked 11+

I can see it now, "Sea Hag lost 3 ranks this time and one person even rated it below average." Hey guys! I'm that guy who tanked Sea Hag! How are you?

It's no secret, this lovely lady and I haven't had the best time in our relationship now that I've gotten married to someone way cooler and with a more... umm, normal, hair color. I've talked at length about why I think Sea Hag is so bad in another thread so I won't re-hash that here. I like Sea Hag exactly where I've put her and I'm standing my ground on this one; I'm right about Sea Hag. I don't know exactly where Sea Hag is going to end up on the list but I will say that every card we put under her in power level that's still left on this list is a clear mistake.

One day you all will see the light and put her exactly where she belongs. I know, her wily and shrewd ways can be very alluring at first. I, too, have fallen into that trap of deep infatuation (what can I say? I'm a sucker for a full moon and deep down I think we all are) but one day, all of you will find that special someone who is truly right for you AHEMAHEMjackAHEM and you will truly understand that in this day and age in Dominion, we can all do much, much better.

I ranked Magpie 33rd, here it's ranked 11+

I don't know how this one happened. Magpie belongs up there in 11+ for sure and it makes me sad.

I ranked Young Witch 32nd, here it's ranked 11+

I have this young woman underrated, but I certainly don't think she belongs in 11+. She's probably somewhere in the teens (OMG see what I did there?!?!?! AAAAAHHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHH!!!! Oh jeez I crack myself up. Srsly, you all need to upvote this post just because of that). Yeah, I can't top that. Moving on...

I ranked Militia 27th, here it's ranked 11+

I can see arguments for putting Militia higher than 27, maybe like up to 20 if I'm feeling generous. And maybe it's at 11 so there's nothing else to talk about. I dunno, I feel like where I put Militia is pretty good. Hmm.

I ranked Gardens 26th, here it's ranked 40th.

I think the community tends to undervalue green cards. Seems that it's only come up here so far with Gardens. Umm, yeah, Gardens is better than y'all think I guess, by a little bit. I like Gardens exactly where I put it. OK then.

I ranked Mission 23rd, here it's ranked 35th.

This has been talked about already here, and this one was pretty close. Mission is pretty good, it's like way better than Outpost. So many enablers that you're hard-pressed to find a board that doesn't have any of them.

I ranked Armory 17th, here it's ranked 45th.

I think this is actually the biggest difference, yeah? Well that depends on some of these 11+ cards, but wow, Armory at 45th? Just, wow. There's no way that's even close to right. Is it because all of those Ironworks rushes aren't as good with Armory? (bro voice) Bruh, nobody plays Workshop/Gardens anymore, that's SOOOO 2009 braouoauoahh!!!!!!!!! (end bro voice) I just don't understand it. Armory is way, way, way, super-ultra-way better than 45th. Like, by a lot. Wow. I really think the community got this one all the way wrong. I mean, I can understand why people think Sea Hag is good, but I just don't get why Armory is put below so many cards that it's better than.

I know a couple of games I've played in the league where people say I've overbought Armory, I disagree and I like the decks I built there. I really think that everyone, even the top players, need to go back and seriously re-think their read on this card.

I ranked Moneylender 14th, here it's ranked 28th.

Sort of close on this one, but yeah, I don't think I overrated Moneylender at all. He trashes Coppers while providing you really good economy. There's very, very little opportunity cost to this guy and his effect is so good.

I ranked Conspirator 7th, here it's ranked 21st.

Just look at how many boards out there have people playing a ton of action cards on their turn. It's like basically all of them. Conspirator is so, so, so incredibly good on those boards that I think it is among the top tier of $4 cards.

I ranked Procession 8th, here it's ranked 24th.

The community's read on this card is still skewed from when Dark Ages first came out? I dunno. Procession belongs in the top ten here, no contest.

It's true that Procession sometimes effectively reads "Play an Action from your hand twice then trash it" which is kinda sad. I mean, that's why I have Throne Room higher than it, for sure. But that card is still really, really, really good.

But then there are those boards where Procession is amazing, and on those boards, playing Procession well makes such a huge difference in what your deck can do. To say it's game-winning would be an understatement.

Yeah, it's hard to give this card its full potential, but I don't feel like that should affect its ranking here. Procession is sadly underrated and we just need to get better at Dominion to realize the right place to put it.



So that's it. I'm excited to see that the community put Jack first this year, that card is so good, man. Anything less than first place is just a travesty :D



Code: [Select]
1.) Jack of all Trades   [X]
2.) Remake   [X]
3.) Throne Room   [X]
4.) Ironmonger   [X]
5.) Wandering Minstrel   [X]
6.) Herald   [X]
7.) Conspirator   [X]
8.) Procession   [X]
9.) Smithy   [X]
10.) Worker's Village   [X]
11.) Spice Merchant   [X]
12.) Marauder   [X]
13.) Bishop   [X]
14.) Moneylender   [X]
15.) Envoy   [X]
16.) Mining Village   [X]
17.) Armory   [X]
18.) Farming Village   [X]
19.) Monument   [X]
20.) Port   [X]
21.) Caravan   [X]
22.) Transmogrify   [X]
23.) Mission   [X]
24.) Salvager   [X]
25.) Fortress   [X]
26.) Gardens   [X]
27.) Militia   [X]
28.) Plaza   [X]
29.) Ironworks   [X]
30.) Remodel   [X]
31.) Advisor   [X]
32.) Young Witch   [X]
33.) Magpie   [X]
34.) Walled Village   [X]
35.) Sea Hag   [X]
36.) Bridge   [X]
37.) Ranger   [X]
38.) Quarry   [X]
39.) Duplicate   [X]
40.) Scavenger   [X]
41.) Trader   [X]
42.) Baron   [X]
43.) Death Cart   [X]
44.) Cutpurse   [X]
45.) Silk Road   [X]
46.) Feodum   [X]
47.) Horse Traders   [X]
48.) Island   [X]
49.) Messenger   [X]
50.) Nomad Camp   [X]
51.) Talisman   [X]
52.) Miser   [X]
53.) Coppersmith   [X]
54.) Rats   [X]
55.) Noble Brigand   [X]
56.) Feast   [X]
57.) Spy   [X]
58.) Pilgrimage   [X]
59.) Bureaucrat   [X]
60.) Treasure Map   [X]
61.) Taxman   [X]
62.) Pirate Ship   [X]
63.) Thief   [X]
64.) Navigator   [X]
65.) Scout   [X]
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #161 on: November 16, 2015, 07:49:18 am »
+1

Adam's joke made me want to downvote the post, but +1 for taking so much time to tell us how and why you ranked cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #162 on: November 16, 2015, 07:50:37 am »
+2

Adam's joke made me want to downvote the post

That's how you know the joke was amazing <3 <3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #163 on: November 16, 2015, 08:02:23 am »
+2

I ranked Young Witch 32nd, here it's ranked 11+

I have this young woman underrated, but I certainly don't think she belongs in 11+. She's probably somewhere in the teens (OMG see what I did there?!?!?! AAAAAHHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHH!!!! Oh jeez I crack myself up. Srsly, you all need to upvote this post just because of that). Yeah, I can't top that. Moving on...

Here, accept this well-deserved +1.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #164 on: November 16, 2015, 08:04:14 am »
+2

I'm one of the guys who put Bridge into the top 10.

I mean, sure it's "just" a payload card. But man how good is it in that case? It's like super good, maybe the best payload you can have, right? If you can play a realiable engine and you could choose between Goons and Bridge you usually don't buy loads of Goons (yeah, sure, like one for the attack) but loads of Bridges. I think that's a big deal and justifies putting it into the top 10.
... it's also good in Slogs.

I agree that Moneylender and Conspirator could be higher... and I have Procession at #9 because the reasons I've given before.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 08:49:18 am by assemble_me »
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AdamH

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #165 on: November 16, 2015, 08:06:20 am »
+2

I'm one of the guys who put Bridge into the top 10.

I mean, sure it's "just" a payload card. But man how good is it in that case? It's like super good, maybe the best payload you can have, right? If you can play a realiable engine and you could choose between Goons and Bridge you usually don't buy loads of Goons (yeah, sure, like one for the attack) but loads of Bridges. I think that's a big deal and justifies putting it into the top 10.
... it's also good in Slogs.

If you can play a reliable engine, then a lot of payloads will win you the game. Yeah Bridge is good but look at all of these other cards.

Silver is pretty good in slogs, too :P
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #166 on: November 16, 2015, 08:21:59 am »
+2

I'm one of the guys who put Bridge into the top 10.

I mean, sure it's "just" a payload card. But man how good is it in that case? It's like super good, maybe the best payload you can have, right? If you can play a realiable engine and you could choose between Goons and Bridge you usually don't buy loads of Goons (yeah, sure, like one for the attack) but loads of Bridges. I think that's a big deal and justifies putting it into the top 10.
... it's also good in Slogs.

You don't usually buy loads of Goons? I don't know what Goons games you're playing, but if there's +Actions and enough engine potential to play several terminals, I'm playing several Goons. Not doing that is just leaving points on the board every turn.

I agree that Bridge is good, probably top 20 somewhere between all of its comboes and just the way it supports any engine in general, but it's one of those cards that's decent but sometimes incredible, rather than consistently great.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #167 on: November 16, 2015, 08:23:31 am »
0

I'm one of the guys who put Bridge into the top 10.

I mean, sure it's "just" a payload card. But man how good is it in that case? It's like super good, maybe the best payload you can have, right? If you can play a realiable engine and you could choose between Goons and Bridge you usually don't buy loads of Goons (yeah, sure, like one for the attack) but loads of Bridges. I think that's a big deal and justifies putting it into the top 10.
... it's also good in Slogs.

If you can play a reliable engine, then a lot of payloads will win you the game. Yeah Bridge is good but look at all of these other cards.

Silver is pretty good in slogs, too :P
Bridge is a terminal Silver more often than you'd think. It's not something you want in non-engine games (which admittedly might become even more rare once Adventures goes online).

It's not a card that's particularly great as an opener. That doesn't mean it should be ranked lower because of that though. Just something to watch out for.

I had it at 22. I suppose it can be a bit higher than that. Somewhere between 20-11 sounds alright.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #168 on: November 16, 2015, 08:46:26 am »
+2

I had Bridge at #6. True, it's not that good in non-engine games, but a surprising amount of non-engine games become engine games just because Bridge is in them. It takes some effort to make it work sometimes, but Bridge makes it worth every bit of that effort. Most payload options actually require pretty good engine components in the kingdom, Bridge works with weaker components too (although it obviously benefits from strong components too).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #169 on: November 16, 2015, 09:16:34 am »
0

Adam putting port below farming village makes me sad. :-\
Port should be up with wandering minstrel and herald and procession.
Port is two villages with on purchase which is really good
Code: [Select]
1.) Jack of all Trades   [X]
2.) Remake   [X]
3.) Throne Room   [X]
4.) Ironmonger   [X]
5.) Wandering Minstrel   [X]
6.) Herald   [X]
7.) Conspirator   [X]
8.) Procession   [X]
9.) Smithy   [X]
10.) Worker's Village   [X]
11.) Spice Merchant   [X]
12.) Marauder   [X]
13.) Bishop   [X]
14.) Moneylender   [X]
15.) Envoy   [X]
16.) Mining Village   [X]
17.) Armory   [X]
18.) Farming Village   [X]
19.) Monument   [X]
20.) Port   [X]
21.) Caravan   [X]
22.) Transmogrify   [X]
23.) Mission   [X]
24.) Salvager   [X]
25.) Fortress   [X]
26.) Gardens   [X]
27.) Militia   [X]
28.) Plaza   [X]
29.) Ironworks   [X]
30.) Remodel   [X]
31.) Advisor   [X]
32.) Young Witch   [X]
33.) Magpie   [X]
34.) Walled Village   [X]
35.) Sea Hag   [X]
36.) Bridge   [X]
37.) Ranger   [X]
38.) Quarry   [X]
39.) Duplicate   [X]
40.) Scavenger   [X]
41.) Trader   [X]
42.) Baron   [X]
43.) Death Cart   [X]
44.) Cutpurse   [X]
45.) Silk Road   [X]
46.) Feodum   [X]
47.) Horse Traders   [X]
48.) Island   [X]
49.) Messenger   [X]
50.) Nomad Camp   [X]
51.) Talisman   [X]
52.) Miser   [X]
53.) Coppersmith   [X]
54.) Rats   [X]
55.) Noble Brigand   [X]
56.) Feast   [X]
57.) Spy   [X]
58.) Pilgrimage   [X]
59.) Bureaucrat   [X]
60.) Treasure Map   [X]
61.) Taxman   [X]
62.) Pirate Ship   [X]
63.) Thief   [X]
64.) Navigator   [X]
65.) Scout   [X]
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #170 on: November 16, 2015, 09:18:30 am »
+1

I had Bridge at #6. True, it's not that good in non-engine games, but a surprising amount of non-engine games become engine games just because Bridge is in them. It takes some effort to make it work sometimes, but Bridge makes it worth every bit of that effort. Most payload options actually require pretty good engine components in the kingdom, Bridge works with weaker components too (although it obviously benefits from strong components too).
This seems backwards to me.  Bridge makes a good engine better and turns a great engine into a phenomenal engine.  But it's mediocre during the engine-building phase.  Most often, it's equivalent to either a Woodcutter or a Woodcutter with +1 coin.  Bridge can't make a borderline kingdom an engine kingdom unless the missing piece is +buy, in which case there are dozens of cards that work as well as Bridge in the early and mid game.

On the topic of Goons and Bridge as payload, I just played such a game yesterday!  I'm pretty sure a mixed approach was the correct approach.  On my last turn, I used 10 buys to grab 2 Provinces and empty three piles for 42 victory points.  I think I ended with ~80 VP total, more than a Bridge-only payload could acquire and faster than a Goons-only payload could obtain.  Incidentally, there were no villages or throne room variants - only Champion.  I now have a greater respect for Page.  Maybe it is the second best 2- cost card.
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AdamH

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #171 on: November 16, 2015, 09:27:02 am »
+1

Adam putting port below farming village makes me sad. :-\
Code: [Select]
18.) Farming Village   [X]
20.) Port   [X]

I try not to look too much into the really small deviations. The new interface for making lists is really good but it results in a little less precision than a good old-fashioned bucket sort.

Do I think Port is better than Farming Village? Yeah I think I do, and I think it's really close too. There are a lot of little details I would change about my list if I went back and took a close look at it, and a couple of big ones (Quarry and Magpie, anyone?).

But I think we get the big idea from this, and that's the point. The top three $3 cards are Amb, Masq, and Urchin. If you ever see more than one of them on a board then you're not going to this list to decide which one to open, this will just help people realize that those three cards are super-powerful.

For the record, I believe Wandering Minstrel is an order of magnitude better than any other $4 village. Herald doesn't count on that list, but that's because Herald doesn't quite fit the definition I'm looking for here (+1 Card/+2 Actions plus effect). Herald is about as good as WM. Hey look at that I put them right next to each other on my list! Wooo!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #172 on: November 16, 2015, 09:38:30 am »
+2

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #173 on: November 16, 2015, 10:06:42 am »
+1

I was definitely not expecting Remake on top.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #174 on: November 16, 2015, 11:06:52 am »
+2

Adam putting port below farming village makes me sad. :-\
Code: [Select]
18.) Farming Village   [X]
20.) Port   [X]

I try not to look too much into the really small deviations. The new interface for making lists is really good but it results in a little less precision than a good old-fashioned bucket sort.

Do I think Port is better than Farming Village? Yeah I think I do, and I think it's really close too. There are a lot of little details I would change about my list if I went back and took a close look at it, and a couple of big ones (Quarry and Magpie, anyone?).

But I think we get the big idea from this, and that's the point. The top three $3 cards are Amb, Masq, and Urchin. If you ever see more than one of them on a board then you're not going to this list to decide which one to open, this will just help people realize that those three cards are super-powerful.

For the record, I believe Wandering Minstrel is an order of magnitude better than any other $4 village. Herald doesn't count on that list, but that's because Herald doesn't quite fit the definition I'm looking for here (+1 Card/+2 Actions plus effect). Herald is about as good as WM. Hey look at that I put them right next to each other on my list! Wooo!
Farming Village is Village + small cycling effect.
Port is village + village. Not even close.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #175 on: November 16, 2015, 11:08:38 am »
+1

Adam putting port below farming village makes me sad. :-\
Code: [Select]
18.) Farming Village   [X]
20.) Port   [X]

I try not to look too much into the really small deviations. The new interface for making lists is really good but it results in a little less precision than a good old-fashioned bucket sort.

Do I think Port is better than Farming Village? Yeah I think I do, and I think it's really close too. There are a lot of little details I would change about my list if I went back and took a close look at it, and a couple of big ones (Quarry and Magpie, anyone?).

But I think we get the big idea from this, and that's the point. The top three $3 cards are Amb, Masq, and Urchin. If you ever see more than one of them on a board then you're not going to this list to decide which one to open, this will just help people realize that those three cards are super-powerful.

For the record, I believe Wandering Minstrel is an order of magnitude better than any other $4 village. Herald doesn't count on that list, but that's because Herald doesn't quite fit the definition I'm looking for here (+1 Card/+2 Actions plus effect). Herald is about as good as WM. Hey look at that I put them right next to each other on my list! Wooo!
Farming Village is Village + small cycling effect.
Port is village + village. Not even close.

Yeah, I would MUCH rather have two vanilla Villages than one almost vanilla Village. Especially given the emergence of card modifying tokens, which Port (and Magpie) obviously love.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #176 on: November 16, 2015, 11:18:24 am »
+3

Farming Village is Village + small cycling effect.
Port is village + village. Not even close.

Like, you make a compelling argument for why Port should be above Farming Village, and I don't disagree with you.

But I don't think it's a compelling argument for why a lot of cards should be between them on this ranking. A village is a village, and if you're paying $4 for it, the effect is really similar. One of them isn't going to make a deck possible that the other isn't.

What can you actually take away from these card rankings? You know the general power level of a card compared to others who sort of cost the same thing. What kind of granularity are you really going to get? Like, maybe five levels on a list this large? Elite, trash, mediocre, above average, below average. I don't think there's much value in distinguishing on a finer level than that, and I think the only village that belongs on a different level than the rest of them is Wandering Minstrel.

I just don't see the value in distinguishing cards that are within 10 ranks of each other here.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #177 on: November 16, 2015, 11:20:31 am »
+1

Especially given the emergence of card modifying tokens, which Port (and Magpie) obviously love.

I kind of really want to throw Training on Rats, and then just Summon an Island every turn.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #178 on: November 16, 2015, 11:24:44 am »
+1

This seems backwards to me.  Bridge makes a good engine better and turns a great engine into a phenomenal engine.  But it's mediocre during the engine-building phase.  Most often, it's equivalent to either a Woodcutter or a Woodcutter with +1 coin.  Bridge can't make a borderline kingdom an engine kingdom unless the missing piece is +buy, in which case there are dozens of cards that work as well as Bridge in the early and mid game..

You're focusing too much on the engine components. What really matters is the payload. Bridge is strong enough payload that you're willing to build even a weak engine to get that payload.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #179 on: November 16, 2015, 11:33:16 am »
0

(bro voice) It all matters, brah! Everything is important, right down to the tiniest fly up to the WHOLLLEEEE UNIVERSSSSSSEEEEE MAAAANNNNN!!!!

Compared to the UNIVERSE, man, we're all just SPECKS! Like, we don't even matter *whisper* but we do matter brah *end whisper* (end bro voice)

Ahem.

Umm, any deck that can play enough Bridges as a payload for it to matter would have to be a pretty strong engine in my book. Like, it's a great payload but it's a terminal payload card. If you can't hack it enough to play a bunch of them then, like, treasures are a pretty good payload too, you know?

I'm not denying that there are decks that become worth it once you add Bridge as a payload. I just think the whole

a surprising amount of non-engine games become engine games just because Bridge is in them.

can be countered by saying that I think this number would be lower than you would estimate. It's just my opinion, maaann. Let's just hug it out brraaaaaahhhhh.

Forgot to put the bro voice tags in there. My bee.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #180 on: November 16, 2015, 11:38:57 am »
+4

My bee.

I didn't think "my bad" could get more annoying.  I was wrong.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #181 on: November 16, 2015, 11:40:35 am »
0

Yes, Remake got it's moment in the sun. I ranked it first and Tournament second. I didn't expect Ironmonger to be so high, but it makes sense since it's a card that almost always does something useful throughout the entire game.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #182 on: November 16, 2015, 11:40:53 am »
+8

My bee.

I didn't think "my bad" could get more annoying.  I was wrong.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

My beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebrah

My bizzle?

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #183 on: November 16, 2015, 11:46:47 am »
+11

Guys, I think we broke Adam.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #184 on: November 16, 2015, 11:56:05 am »
+3

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

My beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebrah

If my calculations are correct, this post will get many upvotes and I will feel dirty.

Upvoted for the "brah" at the end.  Not so much for the copious middle.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #185 on: November 16, 2015, 11:59:55 am »
+1

(bro voice) It all matters, brah! Everything is important, right down to the tiniest fly up to the WHOLLLEEEE UNIVERSSSSSSEEEEE MAAAANNNNN!!!!

Compared to the UNIVERSE, man, we're all just SPECKS! Like, we don't even matter *whisper* but we do matter brah *end whisper* (end bro voice)

Ahem.

Umm, any deck that can play enough Bridges as a payload for it to matter would have to be a pretty strong engine in my book. Like, it's a great payload but it's a terminal payload card. If you can't hack it enough to play a bunch of them then, like, treasures are a pretty good payload too, you know?

I'm not denying that there are decks that become worth it once you add Bridge as a payload. I just think the whole

a surprising amount of non-engine games become engine games just because Bridge is in them.

can be countered by saying that I think this number would be lower than you would estimate. It's just my opinion, maaann. Let's just hug it out brraaaaaahhhhh.

Forgot to put the bro voice tags in there. My bee.

The point is that a Bridge engine doesn't have to work every turn. As long as it works a few times, that's enough. In some cases (NV+Bridge, Procession as the only splitter), it's never going to work more than once during the game and that one time is good enough. If your payload is treasures, your engine needs to be extremely reliable.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #186 on: November 16, 2015, 12:14:41 pm »
+6

Bridge is definitely a top 10 card. It's game-changingly good payload. Wandering Minstrel, Remake, and Smithy: these are all the answer to "how?" Bridge is the answer to "why?"
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #187 on: November 16, 2015, 12:28:28 pm »
+1

I typed a response to both of these but then I realized I was just restating what I had said previously. So I guess this means we just agree to disagree. OK that's cool.

I still think I'm right and Bridge should be much lower on this list. I still think I'm right about the decks built with Bridge. I think people build a lot of decks that can never play more than 3-4 Bridges per turn that are worse than Big Money.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #188 on: November 16, 2015, 12:38:07 pm »
+4

I agree with Adam (to an extent). Bridge needs a whole engine environment - draw, villages (and lots of them), at best also trashing/sifting. That's not always around, and if it's not, Bridge is mostly useless. Bridge is useless on too many boards to deserve a Top 10 ranking.

That said, Adam's ranking of Bridge is also way too low. If the engine is there, you almost always want Bridge. I'd place it in the mid-teens.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #189 on: November 16, 2015, 12:44:05 pm »
+2

Bridge Troll, on the other hand, is fan-fucking-tastic.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #190 on: November 16, 2015, 12:57:05 pm »
0

Bridge Troll, on the other hand, is fan-fucking-tastic.

I don't think it is, it lacks stats pretty badly and it's a lot more expensive to get multiple. It may well be above average, but I'm pretty sure that's it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #191 on: November 16, 2015, 01:11:30 pm »
0

Bridge Troll, on the other hand, is fan-fucking-tastic.

I don't think it is, it lacks stats pretty badly and it's a lot more expensive to get multiple. It may well be above average, but I'm pretty sure that's it.
I'm sure Bridge Troll is quite good (don't forget about its attack), but it competes with other 5-cost cards and so I think it'll be tough for it to make it to the top 20. Incidentally, I have it right at the average mark for the 5-costs. I think I was being conservative because of my lack of experience with the card.

As a general note, it looks like I have underranked some of the villages this time around.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #192 on: November 16, 2015, 01:13:14 pm »
0

I typed a response to both of these but then I realized I was just restating what I had said previously. So I guess this means we just agree to disagree. OK that's cool.

I still think I'm right and Bridge should be much lower on this list. I still think I'm right about the decks built with Bridge. I think people build a lot of decks that can never play more than 3-4 Bridges per turn that are worse than Big Money.

If you choose to listen to me, you are part of the chosen few and you will be rewarded with superior Dominion performance. You will also be more in touch with the universe.

Choose wisely, young padawans.

I think Bridge is still my highest win rate given available (amalloy's page is down now, so I can't check, but it has always been). I might be wrong about a lot of stuff, but I'd like to believe that Bridge is far less likely to be one of those things than many other things.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #193 on: November 16, 2015, 01:16:56 pm »
+1

Bridge Troll is a lot easier to get multiples of in play, and the fact that you get cost reduction for two turns is just fucking awesome.  Worth the price of admission, and I'll go back for seconds.  Duplicate says "hi".
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #194 on: November 16, 2015, 02:37:28 pm »
+1

Another person voted Herald first! I want to hug him or her.  :) Seventh place is awesome, even better than I had hoped! It actually beats both $4 Cursers and a lot of other stuff.

I do think Herald and also Wandering Minstrel should surpass Ironmonger in the next edition. Ironmonger may be a bit more flexible, and it's still a very good card, but it's either slightly unreliable (if your deck is not just Action cards) or just a Village (if it is). Alright, Herald has some uncertainty as well, because you might miss the Action card, but once your deck is mostly Action cards and they start cascading into each other, they're basically unstoppable. Wandering Minstrel provides more sifting and spying than Ironmonger as well.

I'm somewhat surprised at Remake being #1, but it's agreeable. Remake is one of the stronger trashers, both being able to trash multiple cards and gain other cards at the same time. Best case scenario, you trash 2 Estates and gain 2 $3 engine pieces (or Silvers if you need them). That's pretty damn awesome. And it trashes Coppers better than most other Remodel variants.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #195 on: November 16, 2015, 05:20:50 pm »
+1

remake, yeah. i was one of those 20 people. that card is a doozy, unless poor house is on the board, in which case, hey gang, who wants to come to my house for a crying party, in which you cry for all of the party.
remaking two estates into two silvers is, like, net $3 free money in the future, and you don't even always do that.

herald is a pretty good card. when it works out, it's +2 cards, +1.8 actions, because you don't get to choose what action you play. it works out, uh, a lot of the time, maybe, so it's about 1.7 cards, 1.5 actions on average, weighted to when you want cards and actions. i'm fine with him at 7th, it'll be easier to figure out if someone maths it out with random kingdom generation (honestly i think it would be a nice exercise to just root through kingdoms n quantify, how many have good trashing, how many have villages, etc). overpay is a bonus, and if there's any card you might want to overpay for regardless, it'll be a village. there's just too many times where i forget where i am in the shuffle and force several coppers on myself.

young witch might merit being higher. probably get to 5, probably give a curse to the bad guys on turn 3/4, i like those odds. i think a lot of the time with junkers we're thinking of them in the context of, both of us bought one anyway, so they might be stronger than we realize, and also i might be completely wrong and misleading in saying that, who knows. just, try to not get cultist, and have fun not doing things by turn 7.

speaking of, cultist is, like, almost certainly the best $5, no? ja?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #196 on: November 16, 2015, 06:06:22 pm »
0

I agree with Adam (to an extent). Bridge needs a whole engine environment - draw, villages (and lots of them), at best also trashing/sifting. That's not always around, and if it's not, Bridge is mostly useless. Bridge is useless on too many boards to deserve a Top 10 ranking.

The "wow" factor of a deck where you play multiple bridges every turn is the most important thing about them. But even without that, Bridge is great at picking up cheap pieces, for decks that want lots of cheap pieces. Even if you don't expect to draw enough cards to have multi-bridge turns, or there are no villages, it's still great support for e.g. conspirator, apothecary, mystic type decks, much better than (actual) gainers for this kind of deck, because it converts to (at worst) woodcutter in the endgame.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #197 on: November 16, 2015, 07:07:47 pm »
+1

I don't even know where to begin. The three and two card lists were decent, but man, the $4's for the most part are a travesty. I had Remake at 6, Bridge at 20, Quarry at 7, Jack at 19, and Sea Hag rightfully at 1.

With that said, I may have slightly underranked Remake. I'm not sure of it being 1 though. I stil think Hag is better, but I could potentially see it ranked as 2. It is a power trasher for sure and trashing is amazing.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 07:09:39 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #198 on: November 16, 2015, 07:08:15 pm »
+5

how all the cards that are now above sea hag fare in sea hag games: a bitter, much too bitter, but omg completely literally like 100% true, summary:

Herald vs. Sea Hag: oh, you put a curse on my deck? Well, I'll just draw it into my hand and then play an extra action card with like 20% probability. that'll show you.

Ironmonger vs. Sea Hag: oh, you put a curse on my deck? Well, I'll put it in my hand once more! the probability is only (number of curses in your deck - 1)/(cards in your deck) that the Ironmonger does nothing at all useful.

Magpie vs Sea Hag: Same! literally the same rebuttal.

Wandering Minstrel vs. Sea Hag: oh, you put a curse on my deck? Well, I'll just draw it into my hand and then discard a gold and two coppers, leaving another Wandering Minstrel on the deck to counter next turn's Sea Hag.

Tournament vs. Sea Hag: now you're really gonna get it! At turn like 19 I can gain a Followers; it will force you to discard your Sea Hag and give me an estate for my trouble.

Jack vs. Sea Hag: [ok this one is fair, Jack is awesome against Hag.]

Bridge vs. Sea Hag: now you can buy more vagrants, which still won't skip the curse on top but might help if the next card is also a curse.

but all sarcasm aside,

Remake vs. Sea Hag: the classic battle between Good and Evil. Spoiler alert: Evil wins. This one's not even close. Maybe if there's a truly awesome cantrip 3 I'll open Remake here, but that's it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #199 on: November 16, 2015, 07:10:37 pm »
+1

Remake vs. Sea Hag: the classic battle between Good and Evil. Spoiler alert: Evil wins. This one's not even close. Maybe if there's a truly awesome cantrip 3 I'll open Remake here, but that's it.

Alms/Baker/Borrow: Open both.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #200 on: November 16, 2015, 07:51:29 pm »
+3

Remake vs. Sea Hag: the classic battle between Good and Evil. Spoiler alert: Evil wins. This one's not even close. Maybe if there's a truly awesome cantrip 3 I'll open Remake here, but that's it.
Is Sea Hag vs. Remake really that bad for the Remake player?Two Remakes should be enough to keep up with the Sea Hag junking while converting some Estate to Silver on the side. The Sea Hag player has the advantage of having more money after playing Sea Hag that when the other player plays Remake, but the Remake player can have a smaller deck.

I guess Sea Hag BM beats Remake BM, but Remake synergizes with a lot more cards than Sea Hag does.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #201 on: November 16, 2015, 10:17:25 pm »
+2

The $4 top 11 is pretty close to my own. I definitely agree with Remake being at #1. Don't really want to get involved with the Sea Hag debate, but my stance is clear enough. To me the most egregious misranking here is probably Quarry. (I can understand Mission/Pilgrimage being too low given how little experience people have) Ironmonger at #3 also seems a little overboard, but not far off from the truth I suppose.

Code: [Select]
1.) Remake   [X]
2.) Jack of all Trades   [X]
3.) Wandering Minstrel   [X]
4.) Herald   [X]
5.) Tournament   [X]
6.) Magpie   [X]
7.) Envoy   [X]
8.) Mission   [X]
9.) Ironmonger   [X]
10.) Quarry   [X]
11.) Bridge   [X]
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schadd

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #202 on: November 16, 2015, 11:10:08 pm »
+1

i'm a fan of mission, maybe now more than the last opportunity to change my rankings. pretty much no other card relies on weird and inconsistent synergies in the same way (maybe rats, chapel), in the sense that, mission lets you very efficiently do all that other weird turn stuff. if you play an ironworks then the turn was worth it; you paid $4 to gain a card costing up to 4. playing a ironworks is often the low end of a mission turn (maybe about half of cards have some effect that does not lead to money or buys) so maybe it is worth top 5. 2016 is gonna be a fun year
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 04:57:10 pm by schadd »
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #203 on: November 17, 2015, 12:54:51 am »
+1

Looking at my rankings, I find myself thinking "what was I thinking?" more often than not. In particular, I put Mining Village, Bishop, and Envoy at 50-48. I have no idea why I did this. Maybe it was a typo or a misclick, given my lack of familiarity with this system. I think that, in the end, I probably should have had Smithy, Militia, and Throne Room higher than I did. But here are the differences I WILL defend:

Mission at 12. Attacks, trashing, and gaining are all very straightforward and useful things you can do on your turn which require no buy of any kind. If you are trying to win an Ambassador war, or are trying to use Travelers, or rip through your enemy with Knights, or are buying mostly Events anyway, or have Horn of Plenty... any one of these things can make Mission a monster. It is "niche" in the same way that Procession is "niche." When it's good, it's insane, and you should always look for ways to exploit it when it's there. When you take the time to look, it's more common than you might think.

Quarry at 8. Before Adventures, this was my favorite card in Dominion. It's a Gold for the cards that engine builders most want to buy, and even more astonishing when multiple buys are involved. Cost Reduction isn't just for a last-turn megaturn: it helps the midgame just as much. Thankfully, I'm not alone on this one.

I had Magpie at #1. Like Ironmonger and Tournament, it is something of a Peddler +. It loses the ability to act as a Peddler under certain circumstances, like when the wrong card is revealed or your opponent has a Province, but it has side-perks to balance it out. And although Ironmonger and Tournament have VERY nice side-perks, Magpie is arguably better than either.

On to Villages. I actually consider Mining Village worse than Walled Village, because I use the bonus from it so rarely. And on the other end, strange as it sounds, I think the best village by FAR is Port. Wandering Minstrel is incredible, but it still can't touch Port.Imagine a card that costs 4 and reads "+1 Card, +3 Actions." That fictional card may sound obscenely strong compared to other villages; enough to render them obsolete. Port is even better than that, because having the extra actions distributed moderately across your deck lines them up better with any terminal draw you have. Although the perks are nice, we get villages first and foremost for actions. Port has the other villages solidly beaten on that front. Any issue it has as a major cog of your engine is that the pile empties so quickly, which is arguably in favor of Port, not against it.

Finally, we all severely underestimated gainers. Like, terribly underestimated them. Gain-and-play shenanigans are just too good to pass up, and they make heavy trashing a little safer because you no longer need as much cash around to build back up. I regard Workshop as a middle-of the road 3 cost. But the 4 cost trashers are something else. I have Armory at 30. If you track your deck, it can give you exactly what your next hand will need exactly when you need it. I have Ironworks at 14. That single extra action does incredible things to gain-and-play tricks. And the final gainer barely plays like a normal "gainer" at all. It doesn't allow you to trash away all of your economy safely like the others, and it doesn't facilitate gain-and-play. Still, I feel little guilt over having Duplicate - yes, Duplicate - at number 3. In a fully functioning engine, Duplicate is almost impossible to describe. Getting an extra copy or four of the best card you buy that turn feels less like playing with a normal gainer and more like playing with a Haggler or a Horn of Plenty. Unlike those cards, however, you can always open with Duplicate. Being able to save it on the Tavern mat until you get the juiciest prize possible is just icing on the cake. I'm calling it here: Duplicate is the most egregiously underrated card in the rankings this year.
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terminalCopper

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #204 on: November 17, 2015, 03:27:51 am »
+1

I'm happy to see that Sea Hag dropped too much, it will make people underestimate it even more. That makes me looking forward to games in which my opponent "gets rid of his curses" with Forge or Count.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #205 on: November 17, 2015, 03:55:37 am »
0

Wow, my top 11 was very close to the actual top 11:

Quote
1.) Remake   [X]
2.) Jack of all Trades   [X]
3.) Ironmonger   [X]
4.) Magpie   [X]
5.) Tournament   [X]
6.) Wandering Minstrel   [X]
7.) Young Witch   [X]
8.) Bridge   [X]
9.) Herald   [X]
10.) Militia   [X]
11.) Quarry   [X]

The cards are all the same except with Quarry instead of Sea Hag, and the order is pretty close too.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #206 on: November 17, 2015, 04:24:56 am »
0

Quarry is essentially a super ferry that makes all actions $2 less. With +Buy the card is a beast.
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terminalCopper

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #207 on: November 17, 2015, 07:56:26 am »
0

Quarry is essentially a super ferry that makes all actions $2 less. With +Buy the card is a beast.

Super-Ferry comes with the not so subtle downsides that you have to buy a 4$-copper, and you can use the super-ferry only if you have the 4$-copper in hand.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #208 on: November 17, 2015, 08:22:35 am »
0

And on the other end, strange as it sounds, I think the best village by FAR is Port. Wandering Minstrel is incredible, but it still can't touch Port.Imagine a card that costs 4 and reads "+1 Card, +3 Actions." That fictional card may sound obscenely strong compared to other villages; enough to render them obsolete. Port is even better than that, because having the extra actions distributed moderately across your deck lines them up better with any terminal draw you have. Although the perks are nice, we get villages first and foremost for actions. Port has the other villages solidly beaten on that front. Any issue it has as a major cog of your engine is that the pile empties so quickly, which is arguably in favor of Port, not against it.
I think I would rank Worker's Village over the fictional "+1 Card, +3 Actions" village; getting +buy while you add support for more terminals is really useful.  It's a close call, though.  Port is both better and worse than this fictional village.  It's better because of the +action being more distributed throughout your deck and in conjunction with trash-for-benefit.  But Port is worse because it's just a vanilla village for 4 if you gain it without buying it.  In my limited experience with this card, this is a significant downside.  There are a lot of good gainers out there, so that it's rare to have a kingdom without one.  With Port, you really want to commit it to your buy, which leaves you with less flexibility.  On net, I think Port is very similar in value to the fictional "+1 Card, +3 Actions" village, and, therefore Worker's Village.  Wandering Minstrel is even better than these great villages; the sifting and deck arranging is really powerful.

I agree with a lot of your other points.  Quarry deserves to be higher.  Mission deserves to be higher (though perhaps not that high).  Ironworks and Armory should be higher.  I'm not sold on Duplicate being better than Ironworks, let alone top-3 material, but I do need to play with it more before I'm really confident about it.
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ehunt

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #209 on: November 17, 2015, 09:07:27 am »
+1

Time for this thing again. I didn't rank Tournament, and I'll only talk about cards where my ranking was more than 10 spots off from the average. I'll try to group these together, since there are some similarities.

I'll bite! Why didn't you rate tournament?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #210 on: November 17, 2015, 09:42:40 am »
+2

Time for this thing again. I didn't rank Tournament, and I'll only talk about cards where my ranking was more than 10 spots off from the average. I'll try to group these together, since there are some similarities.

I'll bite! Why didn't you rate tournament?

I don't like the card so I hardly ever play with it. I don't feel like I can give an accurate ranking.

Same applies with Black Market and Knights.

Like, I've gotten more reps in with the Adventures cards than these ones. It's pathetic, take a look at some of my league/tournament matches where these cards are key. I'm awful.

But I'd rather be awful with these cards than play enough with them to get better with them. Actually Knights aren't really that bad except for Dame Anna...
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ehunt

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #211 on: November 17, 2015, 09:54:11 am »
0

I don't like the card so I hardly ever play with it. I don't feel like I can give an accurate ranking.

good rationale! I put it at number two. I don't much care for it either -- a card that comes with shiny prizes ought to be a trap, but Tournament in 2p isn't blocked frequently enough to be a bad investment, and the "spam Tournament strategy," while rarely ideal, is both utterly obvious and reasonably likely to win against optimal play. But of course those are both arguments for why it's a fantastic card, hence the high rating.

For everyone ranking remake at 1, where would y'all put Steward (still costing 3, but ranked against the 4s)?
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #212 on: November 17, 2015, 10:20:32 am »
0

Quarry is essentially a super ferry that makes all actions $2 less. With +Buy the card is a beast.

Or without +Buy, it's Gold that only works on Actions. Good for hitting 7s, but a Silver instead would have hit $5 most of the time anyway. The thing about Ferry is that it doesn't take up any hand or deck space, so it is good even in the absence of +Buy; Quarry basically requires it to be worth it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #213 on: November 17, 2015, 10:30:37 am »
+1

I don't like the card so I hardly ever play with it. I don't feel like I can give an accurate ranking.

good rationale! I put it at number two. I don't much care for it either -- a card that comes with shiny prizes ought to be a trap, but Tournament in 2p isn't blocked frequently enough to be a bad investment, and the "spam Tournament strategy," while rarely ideal, is both utterly obvious and reasonably likely to win against optimal play. But of course those are both arguments for why it's a fantastic card, hence the high rating.

For everyone ranking remake at 1, where would y'all put Steward (still costing 3, but ranked against the 4s)?

I did the full card ordering WanderingWinder style, so I can answer this question. I have Remake at #15 overall and Steward at #13 overall, so that means I rank Steward higher than Remake. In between the two is Menagerie. It seems I ranked that above Remake as well, but it's so close at that point.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #214 on: November 17, 2015, 10:36:11 am »
0

Quarry is essentially a super ferry that makes all actions $2 less. With +Buy the card is a beast.

Or without +Buy, it's Gold that only works on Actions. Good for hitting 7s, but a Silver instead would have hit $5 most of the time anyway. The thing about Ferry is that it doesn't take up any hand or deck space, so it is good even in the absence of +Buy; Quarry basically requires it to be worth it.

Quarry is almost always good because you almost always want actions. Ferry may not take deck space but it limits what you can buy.
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dominator 123

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #215 on: November 17, 2015, 11:46:49 pm »
+2

RIP Sea Hag
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #216 on: November 18, 2015, 12:25:19 am »
+2

RIP Sea Hag

ehh, it will go up in rank next year. The backlash is silly vocal people being silly and influencing people. However, the more I think of it, Remake should be one. I didn't vote it one, but I wish I did.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2015 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #217 on: November 18, 2015, 03:33:21 am »
+4

RIP Sea Hag

ehh, it will go up in rank next year. The backlash is silly vocal people being silly and influencing people. However, the more I think of it, Remake should be one. I didn't vote it one, but I wish I did.

It's going to go further down when more people realize how mediocre it is.
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