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Author Topic: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread  (Read 17501 times)

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Kirian

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GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« on: March 17, 2014, 10:38:13 am »
0

Post your logs, analysis, and thoughts here!
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Dunduks

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 04:07:41 pm »
+1

Dunduks against michaeljb

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140317/log.50a6c1abe4b03214bb7822e9.1395076912930.txt

After game I said that I didn't understand how I won, but after looking to logs I begin to think that maybe Lookout was trap card - I much sooner had actions and draw. My turn 2 Pawn buy was for +1 buy - but, oops, there was Worker's village ...

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140317/log.50a6c1abe4b03214bb7822e9.1395077542433.txt

I don't know about my faith in Cities but I think michaeljb had too many terminals - his turns 6 and 7 were two Ghost ships too much. If he started to buy golds I don't think I could stop him.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140317/log.50a6c1abe4b03214bb7822e9.1395078138415.txt

Some portion of luck for michaeljb and after his turn 1 I thought about some shenanigans with Smugglers but couldn't make decision. So I tried some trashing, some defence but only light at the end of tunnel was from train.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140317/log.50a6c1abe4b03214bb7822e9.1395078711286.txt

I saw Colonies, Loan (I was thrashed previously when ignored Loan in similar circumstances), King's Court and had (maybe) perfect luck with Loan - 5 trashed coppers after turn 11. So I stumbled upon engine.

Better to be lucky than good.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 05:54:52 pm »
+2

Alexfm 3 - 1 Rabid

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140317/log.516d4258e4b082c74d7b660a.1395088069957.txt
Transmute, Hamlet, Stonemason, Vagrant, Masquerade, Pirate Ship, Worker's Village, Mystic, Soothsayer, Bank,
I like my chances as first player with Silver / Masq against 5/2 Hamlet + soothsayer
Closer than I thought it was going to be after I delay the 2nd masq for too long, but I manage to win this one.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140317/log.516d4258e4b082c74d7b660a.1395089265032.txt
Herbalist, Develop, Doctor, Fishing Village, Oasis, Bureaucrat, Militia, Salvager, Cartographer, Border Village
My T3 $5 gets hit by Militia, then I try to get fancy with salvager Boarder village.
Alexfm plays it better and just buys gold for the win.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140317/log.516d4258e4b082c74d7b660a.1395089995946.txt
Embargo, Fool's Gold, Ambassador, Cutpurse, Silk Road, Rebuild, Royal Seal, Saboteur, Vault, Farmland,
My Amb + FG against Cutpurse + Rebuild + Embargo.
I think I'm favourite here, But break PPR at just the wrong time and they have 3 silver + farmland for the win.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140317/log.516d4258e4b082c74d7b660a.1395091561918.txt
Masterpiece, Workshop, Death Cart, Smithy, Talisman, Butcher, City, Laboratory, Mint, King's Court
I play this engine very badly, than panic and go for the win a turn to early, forgetting you need to empty 2 piles for city to give + buy.
Alexfm keeps it simple with Smithy Masterpiece for the easy win.

Thanks for hosting a fun match Alexfm, good luck in the next rounds.
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Alexmf

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2014, 06:50:08 pm »
+1

I also wanna share some quick thoughts about the games.

Alexfm 3 - 1 Rabid

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140317/log.516d4258e4b082c74d7b660a.1395088069957.txt
Transmute, Hamlet, Stonemason, Vagrant, Masquerade, Pirate Ship, Worker's Village, Mystic, Soothsayer, Bank,
I like my chances as first player with Silver / Masq against 5/2 Hamlet + soothsayer
Closer than I thought it was going to be after I delay the 2nd masq for too long, but I manage to win this one.

I think what made the difference here was Rabid's second Soothsayer which helped a lot with the gold gaining. I think I should have bought a second Soothsayer quite early in the game as well. In that case, I wonder whether those later golds I bought should possibly have been Stonemasons+Worker's Village/Masquerade. A bit annoying was that I never really connected a Stonemason to a single gold when Duchies were still available.


http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140317/log.516d4258e4b082c74d7b660a.1395089265032.txt
Herbalist, Develop, Doctor, Fishing Village, Oasis, Bureaucrat, Militia, Salvager, Cartographer, Border Village
My T3 $5 gets hit by Militia, then I try to get fancy with salvager Boarder village.
Alexfm plays it better and just buys gold for the win.

I get quite lucky in the opening with the Militia and afterwards, although Border Village-Cartographer-Salvager sounds pretty decent, I'm not sure whether going for it is worth it due to the lack of +draw on the board.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140317/log.516d4258e4b082c74d7b660a.1395089995946.txt
Embargo, Fool's Gold, Ambassador, Cutpurse, Silk Road, Rebuild, Royal Seal, Saboteur, Vault, Farmland,
My Amb + FG against Cutpurse + Rebuild + Embargo.
I think I'm favourite here, But break PPR at just the wrong time and they have 3 silver + farmland for the win.

Quite an interesting board. Not sure which strategy is best here. I don't think Ambassador is too strong against Rebuild and FG is vulnerable to Embargo (although I don't hit my Embargos until rather late), so I decide to just go Cutpurse-Rebuild-Embargo. When Rabid breaks PPR I'm lucky and have the perfect hand to end the game.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140317/log.516d4258e4b082c74d7b660a.1395091561918.txt
Masterpiece, Workshop, Death Cart, Smithy, Talisman, Butcher, City, Laboratory, Mint, King's Court
I play this engine very badly, than panic and go for the win a turn to early, forgetting you need to empty 2 piles for city to give + buy.
Alexfm keeps it simple with Smithy Masterpiece for the easy win.

Thanks for hosting a fun match Alexfm, good luck in the next rounds.

Also an interesting board. Of course some cards here, especially King's Court, scream for an engine, but the engine-components are rather expensive and there is lack of +buy (except for twice upgraded cities) and an attack on the board. Smithy-Masterpiece is a very good bm strategy, thus I believed it superior. I manage to hit a good first masterpiece and can accumulate a lot of points rather quickly while Rabid builds his engine. In the end his engine is one turn too slow (I just need to buy a duchy in my next turn and then there's just not enough points left for Rabid).

Thanks, Rabid, for fun and interesting games and good luck in the future rounds.

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SCSN

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2014, 07:59:06 pm »
+3

Also an interesting board. Of course some cards here, especially King's Court, scream for an engine, but the engine-components are rather expensive and there is lack of +buy (except for twice upgraded cities) and an attack on the board. Smithy-Masterpiece is a very good bm strategy, thus I believed it superior.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140317/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1395100531341.txt
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Titandrake

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2014, 08:32:08 pm »
0

Good lord, I want to say that you have a very nice setup where you can trash your Coppers to Mint almost immediately thanks to an early $7, but I don't even think it's that unlikely to get started that way.

I bet the mirror is incredibly weird to play though.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2014, 11:32:53 pm »
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Good lord, I want to say that you have a very nice setup where you can trash your Coppers to Mint almost immediately thanks to an early $7, but I don't even think it's that unlikely to get started that way.

I bet the mirror is incredibly weird to play though.

It is pretty unlikely to get started that way. I sure wouldn't have played Smithy BM on that board though.
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lespeutere

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2014, 05:53:05 am »
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I cannot look at SCSN's log, but I'm sure he's shown the same reaction as I have: no +buy, ok; but death cart, workshop and butcher.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2014, 08:29:55 am »
+2

Also an interesting board. Of course some cards here, especially King's Court, scream for an engine, but the engine-components are rather expensive and there is lack of +buy (except for twice upgraded cities) and an attack on the board. Smithy-Masterpiece is a very good bm strategy, thus I believed it superior.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140317/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1395100531341.txt

This does NOT convince me that engine is the way to go here. Sure, I like it if I can guarantee kinging a smithy by turn 5... You actually don't "get there" until turn 15 though, and whilst you get there in a big way that you're highly likely to beat a BM strat by then, if you have a bit worse luck... On the other hand, I am pretty unconvinced by Smithy as the BM choice du jour, even if masterpiece does pull you towards it. I'm much more interested in something with Butcher.

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2014, 09:40:35 am »
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Also an interesting board. Of course some cards here, especially King's Court, scream for an engine, but the engine-components are rather expensive and there is lack of +buy (except for twice upgraded cities) and an attack on the board. Smithy-Masterpiece is a very good bm strategy, thus I believed it superior.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140317/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1395100531341.txt

How many games did you play to get that good of a start?  I feel like you could try to do that strategy and only get that start maybe 1 in 10 times.  BM/Masterpiece can have 4 Provinces/4 Duchies in deck by 15/16 turns.  If you don't get that good of a start and are slower BM is going to have a sizable lead and with no extra VP it could be tough to overcome.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2014, 11:06:42 am »
+1

Also an interesting board. Of course some cards here, especially King's Court, scream for an engine, but the engine-components are rather expensive and there is lack of +buy (except for twice upgraded cities) and an attack on the board. Smithy-Masterpiece is a very good bm strategy, thus I believed it superior.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140317/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1395100531341.txt

How many games did you play to get that good of a start?  I feel like you could try to do that strategy and only get that start maybe 1 in 10 times.  BM/Masterpiece can have 4 Provinces/4 Duchies in deck by 15/16 turns.  If you don't get that good of a start and are slower BM is going to have a sizable lead and with no extra VP it could be tough to overcome.
He got it first time. Is that indicative of what's likely? I don't think so. But according to the log records, first time.

KingZog3

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2014, 11:51:23 am »
+1

I sometimes just can't believe this game. I don't think I played worse because often we had identical buys for the first couple of turns! At no point do I get lucky, only unlucky and everything just seemed to work out for my opponent. Here are the games anyway, despite how miserable they were for me.

Game one- lost- 0-1 for him

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140318/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1395153793867.txt


Code: [Select]
Candlestick Maker, Stonemason, Philosopher's Stone, Gardens, Noble Brigand, Wandering Minstrel, Explorer, Highway, Library, Stables
We both go for the obviouse engine. He gets extra Stables and a 5th Highway. I don't get my 5th Highway because I think I felt piles were too low to risk it, and I get too many Candlestick Makers. This one didn't go so bad, but I still lost. We both missed awesome Stonemason here.

Game 2-lost- 0-2

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140318/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1395154581674.txt


Code: [Select]
Moat, Stonemason, Vagrant, Philosopher's Stone, Tournament, Wandering Minstrel, Harvest, Tactician, Goons, Forge
This is just all ruined by Tournament as he gets to connect his Province first, and second. I get Princess then Diadem, but who cares at this point because even my Forge can't trash anything and he always seems to have a Province in hand. I should play Goons before my tournaments, but I don't think that would change the game. I. Hate. Tournament. With. A. Passion. Worse than Minion.

Game 3-tie- .5-2.5

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140318/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1395155360996.txt


Code: [Select]
Sage, Shanty Town, Ironmonger, Procession, Silk Road, Worker's Village, Butcher, Knights, Mine, Rabble
I just a fucking moron. I could have won on the last turn by just BUYING the Province. I have the coin tokens to do it. IRL I could have "untrashed" that damn Province, but no. I was stupid and I payed the price for it with a tie and not a win. I. Hate. Being. Dumb. Oh yeah, he get more knights and I can't ever buy anything. So much fun.

Game 4-win!- 1.5-2.5

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140318/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1395155831329.txt


Code: [Select]
Scheme, Trade Route, Ironmonger, JackOfAllTrades, Bazaar, Contraband, Mandarin, Soothsayer, Vault, Farmland
5/2 is not what I wanted here, but I thought I would just run with it. I go essentially Vault+BM. He goes for an engine thing with Jack. I manage to squeeze a win, but by no means was it decisive. It's only from FPA, since he had $11 on his turn 19.

Game 5-lose- 1.5-3.5

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140318/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1395156180259.txt


Code: [Select]
Vagrant, Scrying Pool, Loan, Catacombs, Embassy, Laboratory, Market, Rebuild, Tactician, Upgrade
Oh this looks like fun! Oh no, Rebuild. Well, time for a luckfest, and really, this game is just an example of how you don't make your own shuffle luck. Not with Rebuild. Just a couple of exmaples, turn 12 I turn over BOTH my other Rebuilds so they miss the shuffle. Turn 14 Rebuild passes over my Golds and a Silver, not even 1 copper. Turn 15 I draw two Rebuilds with MY ONLY 2 DUCHIES! Like what the hell Dominion, do you really hate me that much?

Maybe I'm just an idiot and played all these games poorly, but if I did so did he because we did the same thing most games.

Thanks for the games Egork (Egor Kulikov). I'm sure you had more fun than me.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 11:52:29 am by KingZog3 »
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Trogdor the Burninator

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2014, 12:59:40 pm »
0

Trogdor defeats Factotumjack 3-0!

Game 1:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140318/log.516d5909e4b082c74d7bb659.1395159383853.txt



Code: [Select]
Transmute, Poor House, Death Cart, Fortress, Horse Traders, Mandarin, Mine, Saboteur, Soothsayer, ForgeVery interesting Colony game, but I think my Mine was able to power me ahead in this one.

Game 2:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140318/log.516d5909e4b082c74d7bb659.1395160293115.txt


Code: [Select]
Hamlet, Alchemist, Familiar, Pirate Ship, Band of Misfits, Counterfeit, Margrave, Rebuild, Nobles, BankHere I win the Curse split by four, get into the Rebuilding late, but he Rebuilds his Duchy into the last Province with nowhere else to go giving me the win

Game 3:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140318/log.516d5909e4b082c74d7bb659.1395161391970.txt


Code: [Select]
Cellar, Secret Chamber, JackOfAllTrades, Moneylender, Quarry, Taxman, Worker's Village, Minion, Mountebank, Royal SealSelf-explanatory Minion game. Factotumjack didn't realize the power of Minion, which allows me to win the Minion split 9:1. I do accidentally trash a Minion with a JoAT on a misclick, but that ends up not mattering to much (I find it really annoying that the chat bleeps out "crap") as I win this one 52-35

Thanks Factotumjack for the games and good luck in your next rounds!
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 01:04:49 pm by Trogdor the Burninator »
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Burning Skull

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2014, 03:15:53 pm »
0

Burning Scull - N1sch 3:0

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140318/log.50a94f0ce4b07a80ae66d119.1395166186387.txt
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140318/log.50a94f0ce4b07a80ae66d119.1395168406006.txt
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140318/log.50a94f0ce4b07a80ae66d119.1395168949997.txt

Not much to say here. I idiotically misplayed Hermit/Market Square in the first game, but it turned out to be ok.

We were forced to replay one game since it produced some strange bug when trade route stopped giving money for playing it.
Four victory piles were not full, and trade route play resulted in zero coins gain. Think i gonna report it.

Tables

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2014, 05:12:13 pm »
+2

Gamesou beats Tables 3-0 (and thus my streak of every game I'm in ending with the loser not getting a single win contunes).

Game 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140318/log.516d321ae4b082c74d7b345d.1395173953063.txt

I'm not experienced with Dark Ages and it shows here. Gamesou builds up an engine-ish deck utilising Butcher, Hermit/Madman and a few other cards, I go more big money with Cultist. He ends the game gaining four Provinces in a single turn, which is quite the feat considering there's no villages except Madman and no extra buys.

Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140318/log.516d321ae4b082c74d7b345d.1395174499208.txt

He opens 5/2 and gets an IGG. I'm already at a huge disadvantage and decide to risk getting a Torturer engine with FGs up and running before he can three pile. I'm not expecting to win but I figure it should give me a chance of catching up late game. It doesn't pay off, and Gamesou buys IGG three times over the next four turns while I struggle to collide my FGs, and he win before I can even play a Torturer.

Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140318/log.516d321ae4b082c74d7b345d.1395176274561.txt

This one is by far the most interesting and odd game here. Both of us are aiming for a similar strategy: Use KC-Saboteur to smash the opponent's deck and prevent them getting anywhere, then coast to victory. But the routes we used to get there were very different - Gamesou with wishing wells activating Conspirators for money in a chapeled down deck while I went with Procession and Cultist for drawing and (thanks to the presence of Adventurer) turning things into KCs the hard way. Both of us somehow manage to get to a similar position with Saboteurs and KCs at the same time, then spend a good number of turns jockeying for power and trying to destroy the opponent's key cards, while trying to keep our own gaining power up. Eventually the piles are close to empty and I go for the three pile win with a convoluted Procession gaining chain... only to discover my deck didn't contain the other Wishing Well I thought it did (thanks to, of course, having Processioned it away). Gamesou takes advantage of my emptying the Conspirator pile and Remodels to victory (edit: As he pointed out below, he would have won on that turn regardless of what I did).

All in all, some fun games. I was definitely outmatched in each game, although the third one was really quite unusual and interesting.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 05:58:15 pm by Tables »
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

gamesou

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2014, 05:47:39 pm »
+1

Thanks Tables for the games and the report !

Gamesou takes advantage of my emptying the Conspirator pile and Remodels to victory.

Actually even without your Conspirator gain I could have KC-Remodelled to gain Province/Wishing Well/Conspirator while buying the last Ruin. I looked at the log and don't see how you could have played your turn 18 to prevent that (if somebody wants to look at it: there was 1 Ruin, 1 Wishing Well and 1 Conspirator left). Of course you didn't know my hand.

It's not often that you play a dominion game where your estimated probability of win oscillates several times between 1% and 99%. That happened to me in that game 3. That's only showing the weakness of the estimator  ;)
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Tables

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2014, 05:57:22 pm »
0

Thanks Tables for the games and the report !

Gamesou takes advantage of my emptying the Conspirator pile and Remodels to victory.

Actually even without your Conspirator gain I could have KC-Remodelled to gain Province/Wishing Well/Conspirator while buying the last Ruin. I looked at the log and don't see how you could have played your turn 18 to prevent that (if somebody wants to look at it: there was 1 Ruin, 1 Wishing Well and 1 Conspirator left). Of course you didn't know my hand.

Well my plan was to end the game. Roughly I intended: Use procession to turn Chapel > Wishing Well, Wishing Well > Remodel, and Remodel anything into the Ruin and buy/gain some VPs. If I'd done that you would have never gotten the turn 19, and I'd have won. Of course the fact I forgot exactly what I had in the deck (Procession plus Saboteur makes your deck change a lot between turns) meant I couldn't pull it off, as I couldn't draw down to the cards I needed.

Quote
It's not often that you play a dominion game where your estimated probability of win oscillates several times between 1% and 99%. That happened to me in that game 3. That's only showing the weakness of the estimator  ;)

Heh, yeah. Just to illustrate this to everyone else, our chat log went roughly something like:
Me: "I think you have this"
Gamesou: "Yeah you're probably right"
Me: (a few turns later) "Or not..."
Gamesou: "I think you've won now"
Me: (after a few more turns) "I think you've got a good chance now"

It was a really weird game. I described it as 'probably the most aggressive game of Dominion I've played'. It felt more like we were playing Magic or something and trying to kill each other with what we had, rather than build up our decks.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2014, 12:48:55 am »
+1

Titandrake 4-2 moharimo

It was a really close set of games. I'm going to comment quickly while they're still fresh in my head.

Side comment: We never had to reset a game because of player order, and this includes the game 6 we had to restart because Goko kicked me from the game.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140318/log.50bf7f45e4b06eb53227757d.1395195617500.txt
Hamlet (Bane), Woodcutter, Baron, Cutpurse, Remake, Young Witch, Harvest, Laboratory, Margrave, Treasury, Hunting Ground

We are pretty even until my turn 8. I intend to spend $4 on two Hamlets, but miscount my hand and trash a Silver into a Remake thinking I have enough. The 2nd Remake I get is basically dead and I miss the 2nd Hamlet. From there moharimo keeps the lead.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140318/log.50bf7f45e4b06eb53227757d.1395198000978.txt
Hamlet, Secret Chamber, Fishing Village, Menagerie, Oracle, Storeroom, Trade Route, Warehouse, Procession, Border Village

A pretty clear Menagerie engine here. I don't remember this game that well, besides it taking a really long time. There are a lot of decisions in what to discard when, how much to discard to Storeroom, etc. When I get >$16 for the first time, I go Province-Border Village gaining Duchy-Trade Route, which I'm really not sure about. I get in a dangerous spot because of not going for double Province, when moharimo goes double Province there are 3 left in the supply, so I have to either buy 2 in one turn or none. Manage to get a 3 Duchy lead which lets me get a win on piles, but I'm not sure how to play endgame here.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140318/log.50bf7f45e4b06eb53227757d.1395198671717.txt
Scrying Pool, Masquerade, Scheme, Woodcutter, Fortress, Cartographer, Council Room, Royal Seal, Stables, Tacticia

Masq-BM with Royal Seal + Stables. Not much to say, I lost.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140318/log.50bf7f45e4b06eb53227757d.1395199743408.txt
(Shelters game)
Chapel, Fool's Gold, Secret Chamber, Vagrant (bane), Ambassador, Scavenger, Young Witch, Hunting Party, Market, Mint, Possession

I don't see Possession because of Young Witch. We both open Chapel/Scavenger. I go for Mint-FG, moharimo goes for a Hunting Party-Possession deck. I play badly in the early turns, forgetting to play Necropolis before trashing Overgrown to Chapel. moharimo says he thinks he should have won this game, but played badly as well. I'm inclined to agree, it was pretty close and deciding to topdeck Hunting Party over Possession gave the loss. I think if both people play correctly, Mint-FG should win here, it just seems too fast.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140318/log.50bf7f45e4b06eb53227757d.1395200936770.txt
Herbalist, Menagerie, Oasis, Bishop, Mining Village, Smithy, Talisman, Worker's Village, Junk Dealer, Tactician

Another engine board. I think it's going to be Menagerie madness, but then realize that you get a lot more mileage out of the Smithies thanks to Talisman and all the $4 villages. My Menageries feel exceptionally consistent in the first couple of turns, and only stop working as well when I have 4 Platinums in my deck. moharimo goes for something similar, but without Menagerie. I get a win on piles after picking up double Colony, before Bishop has any chance to catch him up in VP

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140318/log.50bf7f45e4b06eb53227757d.1395202223609.txt
Pawn, Squire, Scheme, JackOfAllTrades, Contraband, Cultist, Ghost Ship, Margrave, Mine, Rogue

The game we had to restart looked more interesting. This is Jack + Squire + Cultist early, then Ghost Ship later. I'm 1st player with Cultist, and we split Ruins 7-3, pretty much autopilot from there.

Thanks for the games!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 12:50:08 am by Titandrake »
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2014, 11:19:55 am »
+1

DG 4 - 2 Watno

One interesting thing from this series, when we started game 5 it came up with the wrong start player but we played it anyway under the assumption that we could reverse 6 as well with no difference. There actually was a difference since I had an option (that I didn't take) to draw game 6 knowing that I was already 3-2 up. It is worth sticking to the rules on the sequence of games 5 and 6.

Game 1 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.5083d05fa2e6ac658be2b342.1395238012945.txt
There's a pretty clear scrying pool-conspirator-goons thing going on here. There's a choice of forager and steward here but forager has a better fit. I win by taking the potion before conspirator.
Game 2 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.5083d05fa2e6ac658be2b342.1395238617282.txt
Fool's gold game with some variation in our support cards. The contrabands help Watno survive losing a 4-6 fool's gold split.
Game 3- http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.5083d05fa2e6ac658be2b342.1395239100391.txt
Jack of all trades gives Watno six provinces in 14 turns. Nothing to worry about here.
Game 4 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.5083d05fa2e6ac658be2b342.1395239678189.txt
I try some minions against a masterpiece/gardens strategy from Watno. I muddle through by taking some gardens after developing my deck a little more. I'm guessing Watno can build a bit more before taking gardens and that pays off with bigger masterpieces and more provinces later, giving the big deck an edge.
Game 5 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.5083d05fa2e6ac658be2b342.1395240139789.txt
Another fool's gold game where Watno only gets 3 coins with his extra buy and loses the split 6-4.
Game 6 - http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140319/log.5083d05fa2e6ac658be2b342.1395240610585.txt
I have 5/2 witch start against a 4/3 for Watno that he takes as spice merchant+fool's gold. Watno's deck is doing ok despite taking curses, as expected, but I can cash one masterpiece for 8 coins to support my deck to the finish.

Thanks for Watno for some games, chat, and a close series.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 11:30:06 am by DG »
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2014, 11:37:13 am »
+2

One interesting thing from this series, when we started game 5 it came up with the wrong start player but we played it anyway under the assumption that we could reverse 6 as well with no difference. There actually was a difference since I had an option (that I didn't take) to draw game 6 knowing that I was already 3-2 up. It is worth sticking to the rules on the sequence of games 5 and 6.

There is a related potential improvement in the rules for determining who goes first.

Currently, that rule is:

Quote
Let Goko randomly determine who has the first seat in the first game.  That player will sit in the second seat in games two and three.  If more games are needed, that player will sit in the first seat in games four and five, then again in the second seat in game six.  This is more easily represented as A-B-B-A-A-B.

The alternate rule is: Let Goko randomly determine who has the first seat in the first game, third game, and fifth games. The player who goes first in game 1, 3, or 5 will go second in games 2, 4, or 6 respectively.

Compared to the current system, no restarts would be needed for games 3 and 5.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2014, 03:06:36 pm »
0


Game 2 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.5083d05fa2e6ac658be2b342.1395238617282.txt
Fool's gold game with some variation in our support cards. The contrabands counterfeits help Watno survive losing a 4-6 fool's gold split.
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SquisherX

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2014, 09:05:41 pm »
+1

SquisherX vs TheTig333

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1395274371031.txt

Match with Baker. TheTig opted not to use his coin token on the first deck, and was able to get an alter after the shuffle. This allowed him to trim his deck to just minions and schemes.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1395275117862.txt

Gardens match with beggar. We both did the same strat.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1395276156791.txt

Possession match. TheTigg had a much stronger deck, but I got the first province plus a possessed province before he would start greening. He was not able to catch back up.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1395277095095.txt

Although TheTigg had a 5 coin start with Montebank, his not buying of any gold had him lose the late game eco fight.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2014, 09:57:16 pm »
+2

I will post game thoughts as I get these videos uploaded.  Was a doozy of a match.

jsh vs Psyduck

Round 1:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1395267390707.txt


This was a Black Market / Tactician / Vault game with no other Village.  There were a few sources of actions in the Black Market, so in all honesty whoever got them was likely to win this, though I'm sure I misplayed the game anyway.  Psyduck got the better stuff from the Black Market here, and was able to build up a significant lead that I could not come back against.

Round 2:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1395268649897.txt


Cultist/Stonemason game.  I go for Lighthouses early with Stonemason and manage to avoid getting any ruins.  This turns out to win the game for me, and I end up winning by one Estate on a crazy Stonemason pile-out.  Psyduck probably could have won by more aggressively trashing Cultists?  I dunno.

Round 3:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1395270050728.txt

I tried to amass Border Villages in order to Farmland them here, and am fuzzy on the details, but in short Psyduck played it better by getting more Upgrades.  I should not have Upgraded my Explorer.  The game was far from over at the point I did, and I could have gained much needed Gold.

Round 4:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1395271614727.txt

Ghost Ship might not have even made much difference on this board... honestly, Oracle is about as good on its own.  I aimed to get lots of Festivals/Cities and Oracles, while Psyduck focused more on the Cities and Ghost Ships.  In the end, I think my having more Buys and draw helped me win this.  I make a terrible misplay midway through this where I miscount my buys and stop playing actions.  Rrrrr.  Fortunately for me, I'm able to come back around in the end.

Round 5:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1395272293174.txt

Hag/Duchy game here.  I get a Counting House on the offchance it nets me a Province, but the game piles out before it comes in to play.  Sometimes you just gotta get the Duchies.

Round 6:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140319/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1395273132977.txt

If you're going to watch a video, this is probably the one.  I did not expect Masquerade to actually be a good draw option on this board, but to my surprise it was quite effective!  Psyduck appeared to have not expected it either.

This was a tough six games to play to a win.  That took all evening and now I need a nap.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 12:04:29 am by jsh357 »
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2014, 12:44:37 am »
0

Thanks for the match AHoppy!

Game One

Trashing and attacking from urchin and draw/sifting from Apothecary, plus some good draws from the Black Market deck make for a pretty killer engine. AHoppy embargoes the Apothecaries but I'm lucky enough to get a Watchtower early on, and his urchins don't collide until the very end of the game.

Game Two

We both end up skipping Familiar and embargoing it repeatedly. Forager isn't overwhemingly powerful trashing but it's enough for a highway/armory engine. He powers up forager by trashing a silver and a gold which I think ends up helping me a little more than he intended.

Game Three

Urchin/Mercenary again, this time on a board with no villages, but the discard attack is really nice with Governor. I'm lucky enough to use Doctor's reshuffle-triggering ability to make my Urchins collide quickly and then it's deck-thinning and Governoring to victory.

I feel like I got better than average draws this match. Thanks to AHoppy for the games, and for letting me stream. I'm going to try and edit the games and put them up on youtube sometime tomorrow night or friday.
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ragingduckd

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2014, 02:00:16 am »
+8

Game 1 AI wins


Stef goes Remake into Grand Market, while I set up a Hermit-Bridge combo, which Stef hadn't seen before.  I'm ready on T15 and fire it off for 7 Provinces and a Duchy.  Is this combo already out there?  Stef didn't know it and I can't find an article on it.  If it's not, I'll write a mini-article on it.

Game 2 Stef wins


My Potion misses the shuffle and I fall behind on Familiars.  Stef's Familiars miss the shuffle and I end up only splitting curses 6-4, but I'm already in panic mode and I try to play for a fast 3-pile with the modest VP lead I got from my two early Provinces.  I can't do it in time though, and Stef's extra Monuments and Treasure carry the day.  I'd definitely have done better to stay calm and keep picking up Monuments and Squires for Silver.

Game 3 AI wins


Despite being second player, I hit $7 twice before Stef hits it once, winning the Minion split with Stonemason overbuys.  It's a mirror all the way through the game, but I've got a big edge from the extra Minions and the head start on trashing Copper.  A bunch of pseudo-money and two Stonemason plays gives me an fun but probably unnecessary 3-pile win on T13.

Game 4 Stef wins


I completely overlook Cartographer and just play Scavenger-BM with a little bit of Forager trashing.  It's tolerably close in the end, but I'm convinced that the Herald engine deserves to win at least 90% of the time.  The interesting question is whether the engine would still be best without Cartographer.  Stef thinks probably, I think Heralding Pearl Divers is a little iffy.  Thoughts?

Game 5 AI wins


It always breaks my heart to see King's Court and no +buy, but it rarely stops me from buying it.  I launch straight into the engine with Courtyard/Armory and start piling up WMs, FVs, and the like.  Stef, attempting to demonstrate that he can beat me no matter what strategy he plays, starts off Scavenger/Courtyard and then picks up another Scavenger and some Silver.

We both get to KC on T7, but while KC-Scavenger nearly guarantees Stef Province a turn, my engine top-decks almost as effectively and can simultaneously mess around with KC-Swindler and the like.  Stef resigns on T10.

Game 6 Stef wins


We both buy nothing but Silver and Cultists.  I get 2 Cultists, 8 Ruins to Stef's 7 Cultist, 2 Ruins.  I resign.  Stef sympathizes.


I'm quite pleased with my draw, of course, and even more so for actually deserving one or two of my wins.  It's always a pleasure to play with Stef, who is a surpisingly nice guy when you consider that he's almost certainly a 24th century robot, who was sent back in time to save humanity or something but got bored and decided to crush us all at Dominion instead.
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RTT

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2014, 04:32:04 am »
+3

My Games vs. Bearskinrug. I streamed for the first time and i think i didnt play that concentrated so i did kind a bunch of missplays. Nevertheless a good series and highly intense games( especialy the last 2). Thans Baerskinrug for the games.

Game 1


Game 2


Game 3


Game 4


Game5


Game 6


Thanks to everyone watching live and all the comments in the chat.

Edit: fixed the links
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 09:07:49 am by RTT »
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markusin

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2014, 09:03:52 am »
+1

@RTT
It appears you uploaded game 1 again instead of game 2.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2014, 10:14:39 am »
+1

On AI vs. Stef

Game 1 - The Bridge/Hermit deck, do you think you had above average or regular luck picking up Bridges? I've never played the deck, it's an honest question. It seems like you could lose some turns with worse shuffles.

Game 4 - I'd think Swindler would be a lot better than Scavenger here. Though maybe not in a BM mirror. Since there's a green target at $4, I'd definitely want Swindlers against the engine. I'm also not convinced that Forager is worth it for the money deck, maybe it's worth it with Venture.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2014, 10:30:40 am »
+1

My games against Lekkit. We had to restart the first game because I got kicked out - it was an interesting game where I went for a Native Village/Watchtower/Stonemason/Pirate Ship engine against his Big Money deck. Would have liked to see how that turned out.

Anyway, here are the games:

Game 1 - faust wins



Code: [Select]
Candlestick Maker, Remodel, Throne Room, Band of Misfits, Butcher, Festival, Junk Dealer, Market, Mystic, Altar
There are lots of engine components, but no draw at all. I decide to go for more of a Butcher/BM deck with some support cards while he tries to build the engine. He always gets Mystic or other 5s over Gold, which I think is a mistake here, both because Gold is just stronger than Mystic here and because you can't butcher Mystic -> Province. The fact that I got the Altar first helped me as well.

Game 2 - faust wins



Code: [Select]
Farming Village, Herald, Moneylender, Catacombs, Cultist, Festival, Jester, Venture, Possession, King's Court
Cultist is obviously the most important card here. But it's not just Cultist/BM. This time the game develops the other way round - I go for the engine, while he does something more BM-like. It's a good thing that Herald actually doesn't really mind Ruins. My deck starts slower than Lekkit's and he is ahead for quite a while, having me worried because piles are running due to my jestering. But then my engine kicks off and I get a triple-Province turn, and can end the game with a lead the turn after that.

Game 3 - Lekkit wins



Code: [Select]
Cellar, Doctor, Armory, Herald, Nomad Camp, Remodel, Scout, Silk Road, Treasure Map, Worker's Village
A quite weak board. There's Silk Road, but the only gainer is Armory, and Armory/Silk Road sucks. The most important card is actually Treasure Map, with Herald and Armory helping to connect them. Lekkit goes for that more aggressively, and is rewarded with an earlier connection, and I'm never able to catch up.

Game 4 - faust wins



Code: [Select]
Courtyard, Embargo, Woodcutter, Bridge, Caravan, Nomad Camp, Smithy, Merchant Guild, Royal Seal, Torturer
Not much to do here without +actions. I go simple Courtyard/BM (I get Courtyard over Smithy, is that the correct play?), while he goes for lots of Caravans and Merchant Guild. Not really sure why he went for that, you rarely want +buy here and you can only play one Merchant Guild per turn. A boring last game wins the match for me.

Thanks for the match, Lekkit, and good luck for the rest of the tournament!
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2014, 12:09:49 pm »
+1

Thanks for the match AHoppy!

Game One

Trashing and attacking from urchin and draw/sifting from Apothecary, plus some good draws from the Black Market deck make for a pretty killer engine. AHoppy embargoes the Apothecaries but I'm lucky enough to get a Watchtower early on, and his urchins don't collide until the very end of the game.

Game Two

We both end up skipping Familiar and embargoing it repeatedly. Forager isn't overwhemingly powerful trashing but it's enough for a highway/armory engine. He powers up forager by trashing a silver and a gold which I think ends up helping me a little more than he intended.

Game Three

Urchin/Mercenary again, this time on a board with no villages, but the discard attack is really nice with Governor. I'm lucky enough to use Doctor's reshuffle-triggering ability to make my Urchins collide quickly and then it's deck-thinning and Governoring to victory.

I feel like I got better than average draws this match. Thanks to AHoppy for the games, and for letting me stream. I'm going to try and edit the games and put them up on youtube sometime tomorrow night or friday.
Thank you A Drowned Kernel
I had a lot of fun with these games too.  Game 1 is really the only game where I don't understand what went wrong there... Seemed like all the cards you were able to pull out of the BM deck were great for your engine, but maybe that's because the apothecaries helped you play BM more often.  It was very frustrating that my urchins weren't colliding until the very end, but I don't think that was my biggest mistake there...

Game 2:  I trashed the silver and the gold because forager really was my only source of income.  I didn't have nearly the highways you had.  I remember looking at this board and thinking "armory would be an OK open, I mean, I need foragers and wishing wells, but I don't really need that many of them."  Not remembering that highway doesn't just work well with +buy, but is also great with gainers like armory...  I think this game was over for me turn 5 when you played highway-armory for another highway.

Game 3: I missed the discarding working well with governor until you did it and by the time I grabbed my urchin it was too late.  My doctor buy was a big mistake.... I ended up with a 4-2 which kinda sucked. 

Overall though, even with your slightly better than average draws, you still definitely outplayed me.  Thanks for the games, and hopefully we can play again sometime!

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2014, 01:30:49 pm »
0

Stef goes Remake into Grand Market, while I set up a Hermit-Bridge combo, which Stef hadn't seen before.  I'm ready on T15 and fire it off for 7 Provinces and a Duchy.  Is this combo already out there?  Stef didn't know it and I can't find an article on it.  If it's not, I'll write a mini-article on it.

Silverspawn pulled a similar thing off against me :

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140228/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1393618990697.txt

I looked at it and discarded it - in a sense that you can only play one megaturn and lose all your madmen and then you're screwed.

Boy was I wrong.
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2014, 02:26:20 pm »
0

soulnet 3 - 0 hsiale

I don't really feel like commenting much, since they were not really interesting kingdoms, all BM with support and nothing else. I only feel I really played better in game 2. Game

game 1: (missing, will complete when it shows up in log search)
Fool's gold with Woodcutter, Candlestick Maker, Lab and Scavenger for support. I won because buying the only Candlestick Maker and probably some luck during greening. Hoarding coin tokens really helped winning, but it could have gone either way. I think that early Scavenger was a mistake and more CMs would have made it easier. I would like some comment from good players on this one, since I was not really confident whether Labs were a good investment for $6, even what to put on top with Scavenger (I did Lab and later Gold when the deck is too green, but maybe Gold from the start would have been better).

game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140320/log.50893139a2e67cff211cd7e5.1395338826162.txt
Doctor, Market Square, Menagerie, Cutpurse, Farming Village, Noble Brigand, Spy, Talisman, Journeyman, Trading Post
He opens $5 and goes all in with Doctor trashing. I add Market Square to gain golds, and that wins me the game because I can trash down and gain Golds really fast, there is no time to build an engine. Also, after trashing, Menagerie alone is a good enough "engine", but the greening comes so fast, I cannot really call this an engine.

game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140320/log.50893139a2e67cff211cd7e5.1395339421736.txt
Transmute, Beggar, Scrying Pool, Trade Route, Warehouse, Feast, Rats, Smithy, Journeyman, Tribute

Terminal draw BM. I started off worse and go for an extra Journeyman, which I think gives me the win. Felt pretty lucky on this one, being able to get good draws at the beginning of the greening stage, thus having PPR in my favor through all the endgame.
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Qvist

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2014, 02:55:26 pm »
+2




Game 1:



Code: [Select]
Courtyard, Pearl Diver, Wishing Well, Alchemist, Baron, Cutpurse, Death Cart, Catacombs, Merchant Ship, Stables
With no villages around we both ignore Courtyard or Catacombs BM and go for a Stables stack with Baron as payload. He opens Baron/Wishing Well while I open Baron/Silver and grab Wishing Wells later. I get lucky and connect Baron with an Estate while he didn't and couldn't buy a Stables in the next shuffle. I get some very fortunate draws and can get double Stables in turn 8, Stables/Gold in turns 9 and 10 and win the Stables split 6/4. While being behind he grabs Death Cart which I'm not sure about if you really want it. Anyway, he takes the initiative in greening, but stalls pretty fast while I have 2 double Province turns. Then my deck falls totally apart with 2 dud hands in turn 16 and 17 where my Stables didn't find any Copper, but my lead was big enough.


Game 2:



Code: [Select]
Loan, Familiar, Armory, Ironmonger, Noble Brigand, Remake, Salvager, Band of Misfits, Knights, Mountebank
Mountebank is obviously a big deal, but there is good trashing in Remake, but unfortunately with Shelters. My opponent therefore ignores Remake and opens Double Silver while I open Remake/Silver. He obviously gets his Mountebank in turn 4 while I buy it in turn 5 with $7 what meant a dud hand in turn 6. He can buy a lot of Gold pretty fast while I try to thin and grab Ironmongers. What confused me was his Remake buy in turn 10, so he obviously changed his mind regarding trashing and got it later. I also buy 2 BOMs after Mountebank which are amazing here as you can use them as Remake, Salvager, Noble Brigand or Ironmonger. I totally ignored the Knights, thinking they are a trap here, but he gets Sir Destry in turn 12 which hit my Remake and later a Gold. I could block some Mountebanks and in my thinner deck I was able to play my Mountebanks more often which won me the Curse split in the end. I played BOM as Noble Brigand a couple of times, but got quite unlucky not finding one of his 5 Golds. He had already a 2 Province lead in turn 14, but my deck was stronger and could catch up pretty fast, taking the lead. He took the lead again buying the penultimate Province, but I got all the end game control with my BOM as Salvager and could buy the last Province for the win.


Game 3:



Code: [Select]
Transmute, Bridge, Coppersmith, Herald, Remodel, Bandit Camp, Butcher, Mine, Altar, Border Village
On this board is the obvious Remodel/Butcher + Border Village interaction, but with Herald as the only draw and no really good way to get rid of Coppers I didn't see the engine being strong. I was wrong. He goes for the Herald engine and with Border Village he gets a pretty high action density really fast. I play basically Butcher/Bandit Camp BM which was simply the wrong choice. After we both had 2 Provinces he uses Butcher to trade Border Villages for Provinces for a triple Province turn. I just concede and buy the last Province. I got outplayed here.


Game 4:



Code: [Select]
Hamlet, Pawn, Squire, Trade Route, Herald, Pirate Ship, Smithy, Golem, Harvest, Ill-Gotten Gains
Boring IGG rush here. We both open Smithy/Silver and go for it. My Smithy misses the shuffle while he could play it turn 3 and 4, so I was early way behind. Like expected I lose the Curse slit 6/4. But then I got lucky. I can grab a Province in turn 11, but he was then again in the lead after 2 duds in turn 13 and 14. But turn 15 gave me the second Province which was huge with 2 Duchies left. In the last turn he could buy his first Province, but I can pile out the Duchies for a lucky win.

Thanks BraveBear for the great games and good luck to you in the rest of this tournament.
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BraveBear

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2014, 03:22:36 pm »
+1

Thank you Qvist for the games!

Game 1.
What can I say I get really unlucky and missed connecting my baron with estate on the first shuffle.  When going for mirror in baron/stables getting that far behind that early was really bad for me.  What I should have done was maybe just gone CY-BM which I think was just as fast.

Game 2.
I got really outplayed here with BOM.  It had soo much end game control. The fact that my treasure was all at the bottom of my last shuffle isn't enough for me to blame luck.  Good job Qvist seeing how good BOM was there.

Game 3.
I think I got really lucky with my heralds on the last couple of turns, drawing a copper and hitting something, drawing a copper then hitting something.  I don't think BC was good here at all though.

Game 4.
I misplay here dramatically and bought the last IGG instead of a Province.  I think he gets pretty lucky by hitting Province while I hit 5 for what feels like forever.

Anyways you pretty much covered most of that Qvist, but I had to comment.

Thanks again for the matches and good luck in the rest of the tournament!
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bearskinrug

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2014, 03:49:34 pm »
+1

My Games vs. Bearskinrug. I streamed for the first time and i think i didnt play that concentrated so i did kind a bunch of missplays. Nevertheless a good series and highly intense games( especialy the last 2). Thans Baerskinrug for the games.

Thanks to you, too, for a fun series of games.  It was interesting to watch all your videos and see your thinking from the other side of the game.  For what it's worth, my thoughts on the games:

GAME 1:  Swingy Cultist game.  I got a massive advantage w/ the Ruins split, and that was probably the biggest key to the game.  I think in the turn where you had 8 coins and two buys, you were probably better off going Province over double-Silk Road.  At least that would have me reconsider whether I wanted to follow you down the Silk Road path, which I was pretty sure my deck was better equipped to handle.

GAME 2:  I was worried about missing the Familiar, so I decided to skip it altogether.  I also have an irrational love of Masterpiece, so I try to utilize it more often than is likely practical.  By the end, I was cashing in on Masterpieces more to deny you the Silvers than anything else.  I am curious why you opted to buy a Trader over a Familiar with your early $4P hand.  My biggest concern was that I'd get cursed before I could get a critical mass of Silvers, and I feel like skipping that early Familiar probably was a mistake.

GAME 3:  I was totally outplayed here.  I was hoping to get something going where I'd be able to have a disappearing economy using Bandit Camps to generate Spoils which I would spend on my turn and leave you with nothing useful when you used Possession.  Unfortunately, either due to bad timing or not being smart/skilled enough, not only could I not pull that off, but the reverse became true -- I was making Spoils on my turns that you were spending when you used Possession.  I lost hope, possibly a bit prematurely, but I just couldn't afford a Possession of my own, you had a couple Provinces, a couple Possessions and a Butcher to chew up Provinces while generating coins, so it was a lost cause.

GAME 4:  I wish this game would have went longer just b/c I was interested in the card interplay.  Total rookie mistake on my part to forget about the Ruins pile.  Even when you bought an Estate in your second-to-last turn, I was puzzled by the move b/c I didn't see any likely 3-pile scenario.  You ended it just when I was about to have a big turn myself!  Well played, and a good reminder for me to keep an eye on the Ruins pile and to not reflexively play that Marauder under late game circumstances.

GAME 5:  Things never came together for me quite like I hoped they would.  I think your Sea Hag slowed me down in just the right ways, and in your commentary, you noted the flaws in using Steward for draw/coin -- it's an either/or proposition, so I wasn't creating as much virtual currency as I thought I would.  A few things I wish I'd done differently, but it was a fun game.

GAME 6:  Watching your commentary, I think it was a mistake to trash Coppers over Estates with the Junk Dealer.  With thin enough decks and enough money to expect regular Colony purchases, I don't think Silk Road was ever going to be a worthwhile thing in that game.  I wasn't sure about the Altar purchase early on since I primarily wanted it to gain an Iron Monger advantage, which was risky since I figured we'd both be targeting that card.  You went heavier on Tunnels than I would have and I got lucky that you hit $9 and bought a Platinum rather than the last Iron Monger.

Again, thanks for the games, and thanks for posting your gaming sessions.  Very interesting to watch, and I hope we can play again sometime.
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ragingduckd

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2014, 06:04:21 pm »
+1

Game 1 - The Bridge/Hermit deck, do you think you had above average or regular luck picking up Bridges? I've never played the deck, it's an honest question. It seems like you could lose some turns with worse shuffles.

Yes, I think I got lucky on the Bridges.  The plan has some flexibility though... like you can always swap a Madman for a couple of Bridges (Madman, Bridge, Hermit gaining Bridge, buy Bridge, etc), and you can also pick up 7 Provinces using 5 Bridges, 1 Hermit, and some cash.

But actually, I think this execution was slower than normal, since there wasn't any useful support (esp no $2-$3 villages).  My only two other Pro experiences with this strategy were both faster: T12 for 6 Provinces and T13 for an 8-Duchy 3-pile.

In the game with Stef I held out for all 7 Provinces because I wasn't under time pressure and I didn't want to have to worry about Duchies or 3-piling after I'd pulled the trigger.  I certainly wouldn't have been in a position to buy the last Province any time soon.

Quote
Game 4 - I'd think Swindler would be a lot better than Scavenger here. Though maybe not in a BM mirror. Since there's a green target at $4, I'd definitely want Swindlers against the engine. I'm also not convinced that Forager is worth it for the money deck, maybe it's worth it with Venture.

I think you're probably right about Forager.  I'm not sure that Swindler can do enough damage to the engine to warrant it's lesser speed.  I'm starting to get the feeling that Scavenger is a lot faster for BM than it looks.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 02:18:23 am by ragingduckd »
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markusin

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2014, 10:16:45 pm »
+1

markusin 2-4 secret tunnel

With videos. Gosh, it takes a long time to upload videos to YouTube, even after they've been converted to AVI.

Game 1:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140320/log.5080bad60cf2ab2c11d065ce.1395361176242.txt



This game had a lot of 1-card trashers. I think my opponent was hoping to trash a lot of squires, but I ended up buying most of the Minions before that could happen. I made a point of getting Butcher to help me on this front.

markusin 1-0 secret tunnel

Game 2:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140320/log.5080bad60cf2ab2c11d065ce.1395361790616.txt



We both went for Jack here. I wanted to make the best of my 5/2 opening by getting an Apprentice, which I figured would work well with JoaT. My opponent had an early lead on Gold, but I got a second Jack while my opponent didn't. Close one.

markusin 2-0 secret tunnel

Game 3:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140320/log.50a7e19be4b07a80ae66cba9.1395363582900.txt



The key engine components costed $5, and Familiar was on the board with Storeroom. Naturally, we both go for Familiar. Our transitions, however, we very different. I went for Apprentice trashing and Bandit Camps, while my opponent went for Hunting Parties. I feel like there were a lot of misplays on my part here.

markusin 2-1 secret tunnel

Game 4:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140320/log.50a7e19be4b07a80ae66cba9.1395363582900.txt



This game...this game. We both went of double Tac/Vault. I figured you want to get either Steward or Spice Merchant for trashing, but not both. I managed to set my Double Tac off first, but I forgot to leave a card in hand to discard on turn 11! Arrrrgggg. I'm pretty sure I could have won the game if it weren't for that.

markusin 2-2 secret tunnel

Game 5:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140320/log.50a7e19be4b07a80ae66cba9.1395365254187.txt



This one my opponent started, even though GokoDom regulates that I should have started here (I was first player in game 1). However, the series was tied at 2-2 at this point, so we needed to play all 6 games no matter what. Therefore, I'd simply start game 6 and no harm would be done.

A Tournament game with a free Baker token. You can bet prizes will be coming into play here. My opponent is able to open Gold/Haven while I opt for double Tournament. I never feel all that good when I get a bunch of Tournaments, but I did so here anyway. My opponent's opening Gold seems to have a good early game booster, and I end up scrambling to trash stuff with Graverobber. Problem was, my opponent can use Graverobber too.

markusin 2-3 secret tunnel

Game 6:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140320/log.50a7e19be4b07a80ae66cba9.1395366322155.txt



Tournament shows itself once again, but here I felt the game was a lot more interesting due to the presence of Feodum and Silk Road, as well as Forge for fancy trash-for-benefit plays. I'm lucky enough to get the Trusty Steed to use for the Silver, but my opponent got Followers. It was really close in the end.



Overall, I enjoyed these games. Goodl uck with the rest of the tournament, secret tunnel.


« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 12:03:01 am by markusin »
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amalloy

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2014, 12:12:36 am »
+5

amalloy 3-0 jaybeez

I don't have a Youtube channel, but you can watch the match from my twitch archives; there are links to videos of individual games in this writeup as well.


Game 1 Log Video



Code: [Select]
Courtyard, Moat, Farming Village, Moneylender, Apprentice, Council Room, Counting House, Haggler, Trading Post, Altar
We both play to the general theme of Apprentice/Haggler with Council Room for +buy, but vary things up a bit. I get my Haggler first (figuring Moneylender will trash enough), and he his Apprentice, and I also get an Altar. He goes for Province sooner than I expected, and haggles Gold; I have to keep pace, even though my deck doesn't feel ready. Near the end I'm feeling quite uncomfortable as there are two provinces left and he's haggled so much Gold I'm sure he can buy them both given that he's drawn his deck. But he has only $15, and gets double Duchy. I'm quite proud of my last turn: I made a couple plays that I wouldn't have spotted before, so it's evidence that I'm still improving as a player. I remember that I had $14 last turn, so if I Altar into a Silver mid-turn, i can end it by buying both of the remaining Provinces. I commit to this strategy by Apprenticing my Province (this was my only real way to kick off the turn at all), and it comes through: I Altar my useless Courtyard into a Silver, draw it with Apprentice, and spend my $16. A very close game.

amalloy 1-0 jaybeez


Game 2 Log Video



Code: [Select]
Sage, Warehouse, Armory, Conspirator, Noble Brigand, Band of Misfits, Counterfeit, Cultist, Inn, Grand Market
I have a 5/2, and the useful-loking 5s are Cultist and Counterfeit. I muse for a while over how Cultist/- always seems to work really badly for me, but I go for it anyway. I get some quite lucky draws early on, and win the Ruins split 6-4. I buy some more money, and spike a couple early Provinces. This causes jaybeez to start buying Duchy and Estate, which I think is probably not right - my deck isn't much better than his, and he can get some Provinces if he builds a little more. I go back to building, knowing that I have a lead and his deck is getting worse while mine is getting better. I'm never in any real danger despite some questionable late-game decisions. This one was probably decided by the ruins split.

amalloy 2-0 jaybeez


Interlude
goko 1-0 amalloy+jaybeez

We start 13 games. I am first player in all of them. Odds of this happening by chance: 8192-1.


Game 3 Log Video



Code: [Select]
Native Village, Hermit, Oasis, Woodcutter, Militia, Talisman, Jester, Merchant Ship, Soothsayer, Stables
An engine looks like it's almost here, but the trashing is weak, and with Stables the only draw I think Militia makes the engine weaker than a money strategy. Plus Hermit and Soothsayer can both gain treasures, further supporting big money. I resolve to go for mostly money and avoid Stables, but I do wind up buying two of them, just because I have lots of terminals anyway and no $5 looks better. jaybeez buys a lot of Stables, and manages to play his Militia quite often. He also gets a lot of Native Villages. I don't understand why he wanted five of them - he doesn't have that many terminals, and there's no megaturn surprise like Bridge here. In the end it's a pretty close race for green, and we each have one dud turn at the end with only one Province left in the supply. But I make it to 8 first, ending the game - and with it, the match. Thanks jaybeez, and good luck in the rest of the tournament.

amalloy 3-0 jaybeez
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 04:25:31 pm by amalloy »
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2014, 09:13:55 am »
+1

amalloy 3-0 jaybeez

I don't have a Youtube channel, but you can watch the match from my twitch archives.


Game 1



Code: [Select]
Courtyard, Moat, Farming Village, Moneylender, Apprentice, Council Room, Counting House, Haggler, Trading Post, Altar
We both play to the general theme of Apprentice/Haggler with Council Room for +buy, but vary things up a bit. I get my Haggler first (figuring Moneylender will trash enough), and he his Apprentice, and I also get an Altar. He goes for Province sooner than I expected, and haggles Gold; I have to keep pace, even though my deck doesn't feel ready. Near the end I'm feeling quite uncomfortable as there are two provinces left and he's haggled so much Gold I'm sure he can buy them both given that he's drawn his deck. But he has only $15, and gets double Duchy. I'm quite proud of my last turn: I made a couple plays that I wouldn't have spotted before, so it's evidence that I'm still improving as a player. I remember that I had $14 last turn, so if I Altar into a Silver mid-turn, i can end it by buying both of the remaining Provinces. I commit to this strategy by Apprenticing my Province (this was my only real way to kick off the turn at all), and it comes through: I Altar my useless Courtyard into a Silver, draw it with Apprentice, and spend my $16. A very close game.

amalloy 1-0 jaybeez


Game 2


Code: [Select]
Sage, Warehouse, Armory, Conspirator, Noble Brigand, Band of Misfits, Counterfeit, Cultist, Inn, Grand Market
I have a 5/2, and the useful-loking 5s are Cultist and Counterfeit. I muse for a while over how Cultist/- always seems to work really badly for me, but I go for it anyway. I get some quite lucky draws early on, and win the Ruins split 6-4. I buy some more money, and spike a couple early Provinces. This causes jaybeez to start buying Duchy and Estate, which I think is probably not right - my deck isn't much better than his, and he can get some Provinces if he builds a little more. I go back to building, knowing that I have a lead and his deck is getting worse while mine is getting better. I'm never in any real danger despite some questionable late-game decisions. This one was probably decided by the ruins split.

amalloy 2-0 jaybeez


Interlude
goko 1-0 amalloy+jaybeez

We start 13 games. I am first player in all of them. Odds of this happening by chance: 8192-1.


Game 3



Code: [Select]
Native Village, Hermit, Oasis, Woodcutter, Militia, Talisman, Jester, Merchant Ship, Soothsayer, Stables
An engine looks like it's almost here, but the trashing is weak, and with Stables the only draw I think Militia makes the engine weaker than a money strategy. Plus Hermit and Soothsayer can both gain treasures, further supporting big money. I resolve to go for mostly money and avoid Stables, but I do wind up buying two of them, just because I have lots of terminals anyway and no $5 looks better. jaybeez buys a lot of Stables, and manages to play his Militia quite often. He also gets a lot of Native Villages. I don't understand why he wanted five of them - he doesn't have that many terminals, and there's no megaturn surprise like Bridge here. In the end it's a pretty close race for green, and we each have one dud turn at the end with only one Province left in the supply. But I make it to 8 first, ending the game - and with it, the match. Thanks jaybeez, and good luck in the rest of the tournament.

amalloy 3-0 jaybeez

My comments on this match:

game1: i think it's a lot better to just gain a silver on your second to last turn on one of the two Haggler gains, makes it a bit more likely to get the double province as you can then afford to apprantice a province AND the Altar for draw. But you still pulled it off nicely so it wasn't as big of a mistake as i thought before i saw your last turn :)

game2: pretty flawless play until the ruins ran out. Then i think you messed around a bit too much with engine components and i think getting golds on 6 and 7 and one or two Counterfeits on 5 (maybe one or 2 Inn's if the timing is great) would be better.
The other option is to go for double counterfeit right away and get warehouses conspirators inn's and GM's but i think you are right when you say it seems a little bit too unstable and takes too long to really build. And even if it's not clear which of those would be better, going money is a lot safer as your opponent having lost the ruins split has even less chance to pull of the engine.

game 3: You are probably right that a stables engine is too weak here under the attack of militia. Jaybeez engine approach seemed even weaker than that to me with all the nv's and woodcutters. I wouldn't have ignored the Soothsayer as much as you two did as Golds are really important under Milita attacks and even though you can trash curses pretty well with hermit you won't be militia attacked on the turns he uses to trash those at least.

Overall pretty well played, i dont see any really major mistakes from you alan.

PS: i would have watched the match live if it wasn't getting that late for me.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2014, 01:20:35 pm »
+1

Sorry I couldn't make it for your match, Alan; I'm watching it now. I was really hoping I could catch it live... maybe it was the time that caused you to not get many viewers? I'm finding that when I stream earlier in the day (Eastern time) I get a lot of viewers from Europe.

Game 1: Commentary here is spot-on, really nicely done. I don't think you should have been as afraid to build more, I thought his first Province was a little premature and building more when it's correct can sometimes be a better play than following when you don't feel like you were ready, but I like your early Haggler and you had a better deck. Well played.

Game 2: This looks to me like a board where Cultist/Counterfeit is best, and in Cultist+money games I like to say that if you want to buy anything that looks like fun, at all, you should just get a Silver or a Cultist instead (or in this case, maybe a Counterfeit). Your Inns and Warehouses didn't end up hurting you that much but it's definitely not my style to play that way. Again, your commentary is good here -- I think Cultist is more clearly a better opening than Counterfeit, mostly because the Ruins split is important.

Not Really Game 3: Very interesting board -- with Provinces I would have just gone with a ton of Swindlers, but with Colonies I would have gone for an Alchemist stack and Salvager/Rats as part of the payload. Looked like fun :)

Wow, impressive run to get the right start player. My record is 5 and you just destroyed it. Well played, sir. -- Lol RNGesus. Can I use that?

Game 3: Doesn't look super-interesting, but I wouldn't way that Stables isn't worth it with Militia around. The big question is to go for Soothsayer or not? I mean Hermit pretty much counters it but you want the Golds kinda bad.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2014, 01:21:13 pm »
0

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dethwing

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2014, 01:25:33 pm »
+1

Sorry brah. I thought maybe if I didn't stream I might concentrate more and play better.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2014, 01:47:01 pm »
0

Sorry brah. I thought maybe if I didn't stream I might concentrate more and play better.

Well don't let me poop on your parade, just win ALL the games.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2014, 01:58:53 pm »
+2

Sorry I couldn't make it for your match, Alan; I'm watching it now. I was really hoping I could catch it live... maybe it was the time that caused you to not get many viewers? I'm finding that when I stream earlier in the day (Eastern time) I get a lot of viewers from Europe.

Yes, I thought this might be it. I'll try to play my next match on a weekend so I can manage daytime, instead of pacific-evening, which is like way too late for the rest of the world. Still, I'm happy to get some post-hoc viewers.

Wow, impressive run to get the right start player. My record is 5 and you just destroyed it. Well played, sir. -- Lol RNGesus. Can I use that?

Help yourself. He's not my own invention: players of games like Hearthstone, Path of Exile, and Diablo pray to RNGesus regularly.
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TheMirrorMan

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2014, 07:45:43 pm »
+2

TheMirrorMan - Liopoil : 2,5 - 3,5.

Yes, 't was the night of the wrong shuffles. And the wrong choices, although I would stick with my plan in each of the games I think. It just ... didn't work.

Dominion is nerve wrecking, ladies and gentlemen. It's the kind of game where you would want to hurl your screen against the wall.

Thankfully I'm a calm guy <rage>Insert tons of swearwords here</end rage>.

Liopoil has an amazingly low pro ranking but plays very well. I think he just doesn't play that much online ?

Well, onto the games :

Game 1 : "Ruined by the curses" : TheMirrorMan begins, Liopoil wins.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140321/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1395437024382.txt



Code: [Select]
Courtyard, Fool's Gold, Hamlet, Baron, Marauder, Moneylender, Sea Hag, Treasure Map, Cultist, Hunting Grounds
Heavy hitting, no trashing. 5/2 for me against 4/3 for Liopoil. Well I SHOULD be happy, I can get Cultist. Of course Liopoil picks up Sea Hag. The 2 ... Well, Fool's gold ? Maybe a better choice than my CY, but doubtful if your deck is going to be that slow. Liopoil takes the Silver and picks up a Marauder afterwards to even out the ruins.

What happens next is a back and forth of who's in the lead. Liopoil takes the win because of all the curses I was dealt. Not really what I was expecting, I thought my Cultists could outweigh that ...

Game 2 : "Greens folie" : Liopoil begins, TheMirrorMan wins

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140321/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1395437726291.txt



Code: [Select]
Great Hall, Warehouse, Baron, Feodum, Ironmonger, Taxman, Tournament, Bandit Camp, Rebuild, Tribute
This is a nice one, we start out with shelters and have hovel at $3.
Of course this is tricky - do you really want that Great Hall already with Tournament on the board ?
And then the second question : what next ? Can Rebuild beat the tournament stuff ? Probably so.
What do you get for $4 ? Taxman is an option, but seems immensely slow against the tournament.
Liopoil goes for tournament, I go for Ironmonger (given the harmony with Great Hall).
Next turn Liopoil goes for Rebuild and I follow suit. Then it's just a bit of a luck race and I won that one. The moment I pulled out the followers as a first prize, it was probably game over.

Game 3 : "One piece" - Liopoil begins, tie

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140321/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1395438636602.txt



Code: [Select]
Pawn, Masterpiece, Warehouse, Fortress, Trader, Treasure Map, Contraband, Mine, Border Village, Forge
You know that new Japanese show "One piece" ? Where they try to find a treasure and it goes on and on and on ? Well, that's the same feeling I had during this game.

I thought I read an article that Warehouse/Treasure Map is a strong combo. Well, to hell with my shuffle luck then, because I actually only get them at turn ... 8!

So yes, I open WH/TM and Liopoil opens Trader/Silver and suddenly halts at turn 3. Somehow I think he only then saw the combo, but then it's already too late. So he starts going ... MASTER piece (pun intended).

Again, I'm flabbergasted at what happens next - I am unable to draw > $8 until turn 13 when Liopoil is already at 3 provinces while I am at 1. I scramble everything together and am in the end relieved to get a tie out of this.

Did I really play this so horribly ?

Game 4 : "Say, did you hear the one about a Jack, a Governor and a Cultist ?" - TheMirrorMan begins, TheMirrorMan wins

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140321/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1395439412644.txt



Code: [Select]
Poor House, Courtyard, Pearl Diver, Secret Chamber, Baron, JackOfAllTrades, Count, Cultist, Governor, Laboratory
Again some interesting choices : Cultist or Governor ? What role does Lab play here ? Baron is out of the question with shelters ...

We both open 3/4. Liopoil goes Silver/Silver (indicating he's going for the Cultists) but with shelters, I like JoaT (works well with overgrown estate and necropolis). And effectively, I get $5 first and start stocking up cultists. I win the split 7/3. Then we both switch to Governor but ... This is also dangerous. If you remodel and your opponent has a cultist in hand, you're giving him a gold and +3 cards. So it's careful. Also, you can't trash the ruins because of Poor House ...

Although the VP chart doesn't show it too much, I was still very nervous this game of getting it right - in hindsight, I won both the ruins and governor split, so it should be okay ...

Game 5 : "I've never seen this before" - TheMirrorMan begins, Liopoil wins.



Code: [Select]
Hamlet, Native Village, Masquerade, Wishing Well, Herald, Quarry, Talisman, Counterfeit, Embassy, Laboratory
A nice one, although it didn't turn out so much for me. Note that this is a colony game. With, well, no actions for extra money.
Of course Counterfeit will help you with that. Which is what Liopoil does with his 5/2 (CF + Hamlet) vs. my 4/3 (Quarry + Masq).

So yeah, I'm thinking of picking up enough laboratories first, then go for CF ?

Then I see something happen I've never seen before. He picks up a talisman (is he going Herald ?) and then plays : Quarry, Talisman, CF+copper, copper. So let's see. Action cards cost $2 less, so Lab is now $3. He has six ... With a talisman. So four Labs go his way. Wow. Speechless.

After that, I start overdoing the Labs, drawing more than is necessary, forgetting the Counterfeit. I'm trailing all the way.

Dominion punishes me in the end by giving me the last hand : 2 estates, 1 province, 1 CF and one Masq. Only to get ... Hamlet + a green. But at that point I was already lost.

Game 6 : "Get smart ..." - Liopoil begins, Liopoil wins.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140321/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1395442225378.txt



Code: [Select]
University, Sage, Remake, Thief, Throne Room, Journeyman, Laboratory, Library, Trading Post, Witch
... with the sage in the university.

So I've gotten a liking for Sage. It skips your rubbish and helps you pick the more interesting cards out of your deck.

Of course you want that pesky witch here but how ?

Liopoil takes option 1 : Silver + Remake.
I go option 2 : Potion + Sage, since I also see Lab, Library and Trading post on the board.

Turn 3 ... $6 for him, witch is there.

But no worries, I get my University, gain the witch, play sage and ... voilą, curse returned.

It goes on a bit like that (he picks up a University on the way) and I feel I'm in the lead here (looking at the decks I should be). But I just can't find the Libraries in a good way or they collide. We both go for Throne Room after that and when I'm looking at the board ... Oh dear, three sages left and throne rooms running out. Nailbiting. I'm just up a few VP ... Now I'm equal ... Now I'm ... Goddammit, three-piled!

The only thing I can say for game 3 and 6 is ..... aaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

But to repeat : I think Liopoil is severely underrated. Watch out for this guy in the next rounds, he's going to do well :)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 08:36:31 pm by TheMirrorMan »
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Here comes the mirror man. Says he's a people fan.

liopoil

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2014, 08:20:22 pm »
0

Liopoil has an amazingly low pro ranking but plays very well. I think he just doesn't play that much online ?

Well, onto the games :

Game 1 : "Ruined by the curses" : TheMirrorMan begins, Liopoil wins.

Heavy hitting, no trashing. 5/2 for me against 4/3 for Liopoil. Well I SHOULD be happy, I can get Cultist. Of course Liopoil picks up Sea Hag. The 2 ... Well, Fool's gold ? Maybe a better choice than my CY, but doubtful if your deck is going to be that slow. Liopoil takes the Silver and picks up a Marauder afterwards to even out the ruins.

What happens next is a back and forth of who's in the lead. Liopoil takes the win because of all the curses I was dealt. Not really what I was expecting, I thought my Cultists could outweigh that ...

Game 2 : "Greens folie" : Liopoil begins, TheMirrorMan wins

This is a nice one, we start out with shelters and have hovel at $3.
Of course this is tricky - do you really want that Great Hall already with Tournament on the board ?
And then the second question : what next ? Can Rebuild beat the tournament stuff ? Probably so.
What do you get for $4 ? Taxman is an option, but seems immensely slow against the tournament.
Liopoil goes for tournament, I go for Ironmonger (given the harmony with Great Hall).
Next turn Liopoil goes for Rebuild and I follow suit. Then it's just a bit of a luck race and I won that one. The moment I pulled out the followers as a first prize, it was probably game over.

Game 3 : "One piece" - Liopoil begins, tie

You know that new Japanese show "One piece" ? Where they try to find a treasure and it goes on and on and on ? Well, that's the same feeling I had during this game.

I thought I read an article that Warehouse/Treasure Map is a strong combo. Well, to hell with my shuffle luck then, because I actually only get them at turn ... 8!

So yes, I open WH/TM and Liopoil opens Trader/Silver and suddenly halts at turn 3. Somehow I think he only then saw the combo, but then it's already too late. So he starts going ... MASTER piece (pun intended).

Again, I'm flabbergasted at what happens next - I am unable to draw > $8 until turn 13 when Liopoil is already at 3 provinces while I am at 1. I scramble everything together and am in the end relieved to get a tie out of this.

Did I really play this so horribly ?

Game 4 : "Say, did you here the one about a Jack, a Governor and a Cultist ?" - TheMirrorMan begins, TheMirrorMan wins

Again some interesting choices : Cultist or Governor ? What role does Lab play here ? Baron is out of the question with shelters ...

We both open 3/4. Liopoil goes Silver/Silver (indicating he's going for the Cultists) but with shelters, I like JoaT (works well with overgrown estate and necropolis). And effectively, I get $5 first and start stocking up cultists. I win the split 7/3. Then we both switch to Governor but ... This is also dangerous. If you remodel and your opponent has a cultist in hand, you're giving him a gold and +3 cards. So it's careful. Also, you can't trash the ruins because of Poor House ...

Although the VP chart doesn't show it too much, I was still very nervous this game of getting it right - in hindsight, I won both the ruins and governor split, so it should be okay ...

Game 5 : "I've never seen this before" - TheMirrorMan begins, Liopoil wins.

A nice one, although it didn't turn out so much for me. Note that this is a colony game. With, well, no actions for extra money.
Of course Counterfeit will help you with that. Which is what Liopoil does with his 5/2 (CF + Hamlet) vs. my 4/3 (Quarry + Masq).

So yeah, I'm thinking of picking up enough laboratories first, then go for CF ?

Then I see something happen I've never seen before. He picks up a talisman (is he going Herald ?) and then plays : Quarry, Talisman, CF+copper, copper. So let's see. Action cards cost $2 less, so Lab is now $3. He has six ... With a talisman. So four Labs go his way. Wow. Speechless.

After that, I start overdoing the Labs, drawing more than is necessary, forgetting the Counterfeit. I'm trailing all the way.

Dominion punishes me in the end by giving me the last hand : 2 estates, 1 province, 1 CF and one Masq. Only to get ... Hamlet + a green. But at that point I was already lost.

Game 6 : "Get smart ..." - Liopoil begins, Liopoil wins.

... with the sage in the university.

So I've gotten a liking for Sage. It skips your rubbish and helps you pick the more interesting cards out of your deck.

Of course you want that pesky witch here but how ?

Liopoil takes option 1 : Silver + Remake.
I go option 2 : Potion + Sage, since I also see Lab, Library and Trading post on the board.

Turn 3 ... $6 for him, witch is there.

But no worries, I get my University, gain the witch, play sage and ... voilą, curse returned.

It goes on a bit like that (he picks up a University on the way) and I feel I'm in the lead here (looking at the decks I should be). But I just can't find the Libraries in a good way or they collide. We both go for Throne Room after that and when I'm looking at the board ... Oh dear, three sages left and throne rooms running out. Nailbiting. I'm just up a few VP ... Now I'm equal ... Now I'm ... Goddammit, three-piled!

The only thing I can say for game 3 and 6 is ..... aaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

But to repeat : I think Liopoil is severely underrated. Watch out for this guy in the next rounds, he's going to do well :)
Yeah, my rating is so low because I can count the number of games I've played on goko besides for gokodom in the past several months on my fingers. My peak rating was around 5500 I think.

Game 1 I thought I was in big trouble from the start with all the cultists... I'm not sure what happened. Maybe you should have gotten a sea hag earlier?

Game 2 Ironmonger is better at the beginning for sure, that was a mistake on my part.

Game 3 Yeah, I totally missed warehouse-TM. Luckily trader-masterpiece wasn't too bad. It might even actually be better, I don't know... you were a bit unlucky to not hit the TMs until T8, but I also had a few poor hands with trader. I think the silver flood made me not stall as much when greening. I maybe should have started greening earlier. I was hoping to spike a $9 masterpiece relatively early, but that was probably too much to ask for.

Game 4 I went with the silver over jack for a better chance of getting a cultist, but since you got a T3 cultist by playing jack and drawing a 5th copper, your opening was better. I thought you had better luck in general this game, but I also misplayed a couple turns.

Game 5 was insane. The talisman was actually initially to pile up on all the cheap components (action density for herald), but with quarry it was even better, particularly on that one turn. My counterfeit was super helpful this game. Due to masquerade and counterfeit we both trashed a lot of our coppers and had a bit of an economy deficit. A couple times when he passed me a copper it was actually better than the hamlet I passed him. I was surprised that you opened with quarry... it didn't seem very good until you have +buy.

Game 6 You totally outplayed me, except for the last few turns where I'm pretty sure you could have taken steps to stop the 3-pile. A key turn for me was near the end Throne room-Remake trashing 2 curses, a copper, and potion --> duchy for +5 points.
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amalloy

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2014, 11:49:16 pm »
0

game1: i think it's a lot better to just gain a silver on your second to last turn on one of the two Haggler gains, makes it a bit more likely to get the double province as you can then afford to apprantice a province AND the Altar for draw. But you still pulled it off nicely so it wasn't as big of a mistake as i thought before i saw your last turn :)

Is it really a mistake at all? I didn't expect there to be two Provinces left to buy! Given that the best my opponent can do is Province+Duchy, I wanted to maximize my chances of hitting 13; Village is better for that than Silver, I would think. And, while I don't claim I realized it at the time: I don't need the Silver even if both Provinces are left, because I can play as I did and get the Silver mid-turn. So I think gaining Village is better in the common case, and good enough in the unexpected case.
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2014, 07:41:34 am »
0

game1: i think it's a lot better to just gain a silver on your second to last turn on one of the two Haggler gains, makes it a bit more likely to get the double province as you can then afford to apprantice a province AND the Altar for draw. But you still pulled it off nicely so it wasn't as big of a mistake as i thought before i saw your last turn :)

Is it really a mistake at all? I didn't expect there to be two Provinces left to buy! Given that the best my opponent can do is Province+Duchy, I wanted to maximize my chances of hitting 13; Village is better for that than Silver, I would think. And, while I don't claim I realized it at the time: I don't need the Silver even if both Provinces are left, because I can play as I did and get the Silver mid-turn. So I think gaining Village is better in the common case, and good enough in the unexpected case.

hmm i don't know, i really expected him to go double duchy there and haggler gain something that enables him to double province next turn. And in that case i'm sure silver is better than village. But for hitting 13 village might be better but i'm not even sure.
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2.71828.....

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2014, 11:06:47 am »
+1

2.7 defeats ravi 3-0




Code: [Select]
Crossroads, Lighthouse, Native Village, Develop, Scheme, Cutpurse, Bandit Camp, Contraband, Explorer, Fairgrounds
A bunch of fun cards that really don't amount to any sort of combo.  Develop is the only trashing.  No draw to build any consistent engines.  I decide to go big on develop because there is not much else.  Once I got my fourth province, I knew my deck would slow down, so I started buying uniques (and developing into uniques) and end up with 6 pt fairgrounds, and my opponent cannot catch up.




Code: [Select]
Crossroads, Fool's Gold, Lighthouse, Stonemason, Vagrant, Steward, Warehouse, Armory, Fortress, Merchant Ship
We both open with steward for trashing.  However, my strategy uses fools gold, his strategy is engine with merchant ship, trashing almost all money, which makes this interesting as opposed to a simple mirror.  I am unable to trash quite like I want, and his engine does not come together quite like he wants (I think he should have picked up an armory to really help the engine along) and I end up winning by a single untrashed estate after he breaks PPR.




Code: [Select]
Vagrant, Storeroom, Swindler, Wishing Well, Herald, Graverobber, Harvest, Trading Post, Adventurer, Peddler
He goes straight BM with swindler and trading post to help out a bit.  I go for the herald idiot tactic.  As such, I don't hit 5 until turn 9, so I am finally able to clear my deck up a bit with trading post, but I have 5 heralds and a couple peddlers as well as a storeroom (swindler gift from his T7 to me - a silver would have been the correct choice here given the engine I was trying to build).  From this point it just snowballs and the engine is unstoppable.
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Man. I had four strips of bacon yesterday. Was one automatically undercooked, one automatically overcooked? No, let's put a stop to that right here, all four strips were excellent.

Max7272sp

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2014, 01:20:47 pm »
0

Max7272sp Defeats Dawn_Harbor 3-1

Game 1: Max7272sp wins 99-73
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.506611e5fca27235e40b6c7e.1395505100264.txt

Herald/Upgrade/Bishop. I get out to an early lead, and although the end game drags on, get a comfortable victory.

Game 2: Dawn_Harbor wins 33-21
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.506611e5fca27235e40b6c7e.1395505752216.txt

I go for Advisors, my oppenent gets a couple band of misfits. With death cart in the kingdom, that proved stronger down the stretch. Comfortable 5/3 province win for my opponent

Game 3: Max7272sp wins 55-49
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.506611e5fca27235e40b6c7e.1395506440008.txt

Feodum in the kingdom. My opponent clears them out pretty fast before turning to duchys. Not really sure what my strategy was (or what the best in this kingdom would be) but I do a combination of 2 margraves, a couple Inns, and some gold. I thought my opponent had it, especially when they took the penultimate province, but I am able to end the game and squeak out a narrow win. Very close down the stretch according to the point tracker.

Game 4: Dawn_Harbor resigns with the score 29-2
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.506611e5fca27235e40b6c7e.1395507114655.txt

Forge/Fortress/Junk Dealer combo. I get a junk dealer with my 5/2 opening, and then get another on turn 3. I trash down much faster, get more fortress', and my opponent resigns with 3 provinces left.

Thanks for the games Dawn_Harbor!
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aardshark

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2014, 03:11:26 pm »
0

Aardshark defeats Nala 3-1

Game 1: Aardshark wins
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140322/log.5219b890e4b0d7c017c17bab.1395509059810.txt

Very close colony game, with King's Court as the only pseudo-village effect. By the end of the game my 3 King's courts were paying dividends, but my victory is probably a result of first turn advantage.

Game 2: Aardshark wins
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140322/log.5219b890e4b0d7c017c17bab.1395510083498.txt

Not much to see here. Nala attempts to build an actual deck, but without very strong engine pieces gets buried in curses from ill-gotten gains. My 5-2 opening compounded her misery.

Game 3: Nala wins
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140322/log.5219b890e4b0d7c017c17bab.1395511721862.txt

Basically the in inverse of the last game. I compound my misery by thinking I can get double tactician going, based on a failure to carefully read herbalist (thought it gave a + action). Even if it had, double tactician would have been questionable, but I'm curious if IGG could have been beaten with proper play, since there were stronger engine pieces on the board than last time (e.g. Embassy + Worker village).

Game 4: Aardshark wins
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140322/log.5219b890e4b0d7c017c17bab.1395513338694.txt

Fairly interesting colony board. Nearly endless supply of non-terminals (familiar, grand market, warehouse and stables) makes fishing village weaker than usual. I forgo a potion the first round to get my economy going with Militia (which ends up being my only terminal), and as a result get into familiars late and get behind in curses. I don't know if that was the right choice, but I am able to build a strong engine driven by stables and warehouses, and grand markets, with some platinums to boost the economy. The curses are an almost welcome supply of discard for warehouse. I almost catch up in curses, only losing the split 5-3, and win the grand market split 6-4 which I think more than compensates. I am able to consistently buy colonies, while Nala can only buy provinces, and I secure the match.

Thanks for the games Nala!
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #55 on: March 22, 2014, 03:16:32 pm »
0

AdamH defeats joefunk 3-0

I'll edit this post with video links, write-ups, etc.

Edit 1: link to the Twitch stream
Edit 2: I read the chat that I was able to pick up (most of it) and added summaries of what people said to each game. Thanks for the discussion, everyone who was involved!
Edit 3: link to the YouTube video playlist, I also added in YouTube and Twitch links for all of the individual games, plus my comments.

Game 1: joefunk 24, AdamH 26
Game log     YouTube video     Twitch video
Kingdom Cards: Doctor, Envoy, Feodum, Navigator, Salvager, Thief, Bazaar, Governor, Market, Adventurer

All the components for a draw engine were here, but there's Governor too. I build my deck around Governor, so the early trashing of Doctor becomes very important, and he goes for something more money-focused. I build until I'm able to quad-Province for the win. If there's one game this match I'm proud of the way I played, it's definitely this one.

The chat during this game was mostly talking about some subtleties of Governor games, by F.DS standards, they weren't commenting on how I could have done nearly everything better, so I think that means I must have played this one pretty well  ;D


Game 2: AdamH 29, joefunk 22
Game log     YouTube video     Twitch video
Kingdom Cards: Courtyard, Crossroads, Tunnel, Death Cart, Scavenger, Sea Hag, Talisman, Band of Misfits, Mandarin, Rebuild, with shelters

So let's just pretend for this game that Rebuild doesn't trigger Tunnel. I think I played it quite well! I feel like even though Rebuild is a soft counter to a Sea Hag attack, that the curses would be important, so I prioritize that before going for Rebuilds. He appears to ignore Rebuild and that largely makes the difference here. On the other hand, Rebuild/Tunnel with Scavenger to support is just amazing and I obviously should have done that instead.

The chat during this game was trying to yell as loud as they could that Rebuild triggers Tunnels, which I was completely unaware of until after the game ended. I laughed so hard reading this. I'm such a moron. I blame Tunnel :P

Is Tunnel just that big of a blind spot in my game? I mean, this is a pretty huge oversight and it's a little embarrassing...


Game 3: AdamH 8, joefunk 5
Game log     YouTube video     Twitch video
Kingdom Cards: Apothecary, Ambassador, Chancellor, Great Hall, Market Square, Bandit Camp, Ghost Ship, Ill-Gotten Gains, Fairgrounds, King's Court

Well you just have to go all-in on Ambassador here, right? My opponent opens 5-2 and I have two fortunate shuffles to start the game off, so I think that's what decided the game. From then on I'm just Kinging Ambassadors and building until I have a forced win on three piles with a lead. I'm not quite sure what his plan was, but no matter what it was, it wasn't happening with all the Curses and a bunch of Coppers in his deck.

Most of the chat during this game was a discussion of Apothecary/Ambassador. Apparently Potion/Amb was better than double Amb here, which surprised me, it makes me want to try out Apothecary/Ambassador and see how it feels, honestly. Towards the end of the game there were many suggestions on how I could three-pile the game, as it seems I had lots of options in my final few turns.


I knew this opponent from the tournament in Michigan, we played three games together in the semifinals, he's a really cool guy even if I spent more of my time staring at Robz than talking to him (hey he won that game and did better than us in the tournament...). Thanks for the match, joefunk!
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 11:09:14 am by AdamH »
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2014, 06:38:36 pm »
0

Here are the logs for my match against Marin.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395523141901.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395523809738.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395524723790.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395526011927.txt

I'll add commentary a bit later.

The biggest thing here was Game 3, where I totally blow it like I have never blown it before. I somehow get it in my head that Procession-Rats is a thing. It just doesn't occur to me that this does not remove a net amount of Rats from my deck. So that's a blow to my plan (which would have easily won without Rats at all, since I get a dominating 5/2 here). But realizing my mistake, I go for all the rats anyway, thinking this will help eventual cities.

I end the game sorely defeated, with 2 Cities and 15 Rats.

Even worse, I'm quite sure I've made this exact mistake before, regarding Procession Rats. Yuck.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2014, 07:35:28 pm »
+3

Here are the logs for my match against Marin.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395523141901.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395523809738.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395524723790.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395526011927.txt

I'll add commentary a bit later.

The biggest thing here was Game 3, where I totally blow it like I have never blown it before. I somehow get it in my head that Procession-Rats is a thing. It just doesn't occur to me that this does not remove a net amount of Rats from my deck. So that's a blow to my plan (which would have easily won without Rats at all, since I get a dominating 5/2 here). But realizing my mistake, I go for all the rats anyway, thinking this will help eventual cities.

I end the game sorely defeated, with 2 Cities and 15 Rats.

Even worse, I'm quite sure I've made this exact mistake before, regarding Procession Rats. Yuck.
Game 1: Only thing I can think is maybe you pick up a Rebuild at an opportune time? Eh, pretty much you have to just play this engine though, I think, and I haven't taken the time to look at particular nuance (which is a little hard to get from a log).
Game 2: I'm pretty sure you want to get the second Scavenger, pretty fast. Turn 3 I would give it serious consideration (probably not get it because you have warehouse, which I *think* is the right call, though I'm not sure). Turn 5 I'm definitely in on scavenger #2. So then you get the bank, which I think is the right call, though getting the money flowing that way (you'd much rather hit 5 every turn). Maaaaybe this should be IGG anyway. But then your greening phase - I'm pretty sure you go green too fast. You're behind on the curses, but you have a bank. So I think your game plan is to get a couple provinces up and win that way. It's going to be tough, because you're in bad shape in any case. I'm on the fence on your duchies, but I feel fairly confident you're getting estate too soon.

Game 3: Wow you gain a bunch of extra rats after your whole deck is trashed. Surely you've figured out by now that the thinning isn't going to work, you get like... 8 extra rats beyond getting rid of all the junk? It will take 4 cities before this is worth it; maaaaaaaybe you can actually do this eventually, but you want to build your cities up first - particularly becase he can just get them too, and suddenly you have all these rats junking up your hands.

Game 4: I really really really dislike familiar here. Chapel cleans it up so well, and you're wasting 2 gains/buys getting it. I think you'd be much better off just accelerating yourself - the goal here is 4 highways (maybe more? Deny your opponent, maybe play colliding workshops early in a turn), a bunch of menageries, plazas, and workshops. That's a lot of cards to gain; you want to get running ASAP. I really don't know why you picked up a silver. I really think you had chances here - the big thing actually is that you are too slow in getting extra workshops up. Sure, you win the Highways, but as long as you can get 4, you'll at least be ok. Marin is well-positioned because he just has more of the cheap stuff. So you needed to invest some time at some point in the midgame - getting more workshops to get plazas and menageries and eventually endgame control.

Robz888

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2014, 08:07:15 pm »
0

Here are the logs for my match against Marin.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395523141901.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395523809738.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395524723790.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140322/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395526011927.txt

I'll add commentary a bit later.

The biggest thing here was Game 3, where I totally blow it like I have never blown it before. I somehow get it in my head that Procession-Rats is a thing. It just doesn't occur to me that this does not remove a net amount of Rats from my deck. So that's a blow to my plan (which would have easily won without Rats at all, since I get a dominating 5/2 here). But realizing my mistake, I go for all the rats anyway, thinking this will help eventual cities.

I end the game sorely defeated, with 2 Cities and 15 Rats.

Even worse, I'm quite sure I've made this exact mistake before, regarding Procession Rats. Yuck.
Game 1: Only thing I can think is maybe you pick up a Rebuild at an opportune time? Eh, pretty much you have to just play this engine though, I think, and I haven't taken the time to look at particular nuance (which is a little hard to get from a log).
Game 2: I'm pretty sure you want to get the second Scavenger, pretty fast. Turn 3 I would give it serious consideration (probably not get it because you have warehouse, which I *think* is the right call, though I'm not sure). Turn 5 I'm definitely in on scavenger #2. So then you get the bank, which I think is the right call, though getting the money flowing that way (you'd much rather hit 5 every turn). Maaaaybe this should be IGG anyway. But then your greening phase - I'm pretty sure you go green too fast. You're behind on the curses, but you have a bank. So I think your game plan is to get a couple provinces up and win that way. It's going to be tough, because you're in bad shape in any case. I'm on the fence on your duchies, but I feel fairly confident you're getting estate too soon.

Game 3: Wow you gain a bunch of extra rats after your whole deck is trashed. Surely you've figured out by now that the thinning isn't going to work, you get like... 8 extra rats beyond getting rid of all the junk? It will take 4 cities before this is worth it; maaaaaaaybe you can actually do this eventually, but you want to build your cities up first - particularly becase he can just get them too, and suddenly you have all these rats junking up your hands.

Game 4: I really really really dislike familiar here. Chapel cleans it up so well, and you're wasting 2 gains/buys getting it. I think you'd be much better off just accelerating yourself - the goal here is 4 highways (maybe more? Deny your opponent, maybe play colliding workshops early in a turn), a bunch of menageries, plazas, and workshops. That's a lot of cards to gain; you want to get running ASAP. I really don't know why you picked up a silver. I really think you had chances here - the big thing actually is that you are too slow in getting extra workshops up. Sure, you win the Highways, but as long as you can get 4, you'll at least be ok. Marin is well-positioned because he just has more of the cheap stuff. So you needed to invest some time at some point in the midgame - getting more workshops to get plazas and menageries and eventually endgame control.

Yeah, I think you're pretty much right on here for every game. The first one, I think a big thing for me was that he picked up two Nomad Camps, and I only picked up one. Nomad Camp is a deck stopper here at the wrong time. You need it at some point, but on top of your deck is the last place you want it. I think I integrated it into my deck at a more opportune time than he did. Of course, first turn advantage is really helping me out here.

On the second game, I guess my thinking is, Warehouse is obsoleting the need for a second Scavenger. But you are probably right. I think he gets singificantly better shuffle luck than me here, though, and I'm in bad shape no matter what. He only has one Scavenger too, and he gets to it like *every* turn. It ends up closer than I expect, though, and you might be right about the finer points.

I can't even explain what I was thinking in the Rats game. Call it a total lapse of sanity.

In Game 4, yeah, Familiar was a mistake. IAn equally bad (or possibly worse) mistake was taking Highway number 6 instead of Plaza or Workshop. You only need four of them! Ugh. So, on my last turn, I know if he plays all his Highways and Workshops he wins, but I think I just have to count on him not doing that. The likelihood of him getting it all on that turn is *only* about 75%, I think. He could draw too many of the Workshops right away, screwing up his Menageries, for instance. But I have to go for it.
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DG

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2014, 08:41:26 pm »
0

IGG + warehouse is worse than straight IGG so you need a real benefit from scavenger+warehouse to make it better and I'm not convinced. I think there's also a case for discarding the deck with scavenger much less than usual.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 08:43:34 pm by DG »
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SCSN

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2014, 08:43:03 pm »
+1

Double Scavenger is pretty strong in slogs, have a Scavenger in hand each turn until they collide, which becomes progressively less likely as your deck expands.
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azadin

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2014, 02:46:00 pm »
+1

azadin defeats matste 3-1

Game 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140320/log.517265f6e4b054fd071e3c90.1395342527336.txt
azadin - 1
matste - 0



Code: [Select]
Poor House, Oasis, Trade Route, Navigator, Procession, Thief, Band of Misfits, Cultist, Duke, Mystic
The only trashing here was Trade Route, making Cultist a big deal. Lack of a village (except a processed Oasis or Mystic) told me this was probably just straight up Cultist-BM. I might have been wrong here, as I tend to underestimate Duke's strength, especially in a slog like this, but I won the ruins split 8-2 which was enough for the win. I probably shouldn't have bought the two BoMs at all, I was probably thinking I could use them as Navigators or Trade Routes later in the game, but I realized after I had them that duchies or even silver would have been a better choice. Thoughts?

Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140320/log.517265f6e4b054fd071e3c90.1395343823552.txt
azadin - 2
matste - 0



Code: [Select]
Great Hall, Workshop, Alchemist, Philosopher's Stone, Bishop, Marauder, Cartographer, Hunting Party, Outpost, Expand
I definitely don't think I played this one right. My first thought was Hunting Party couldn't possibly be good here with the presence of ruins, and I think I'm still right about that. However, my play seemed to lack focus in this game. I started doing a BM-ish thing with some Cartographer support, and then got an Expand and Bishop in there as well later on. I probably shouldn't have bought/gained the GHs as soon as I did. They probably should have been silvers if I was going for BM. The game was a lot closer than I would have liked, and it looked like my opponent was going to catch up to me there at the end and actually pull out the win, but he must have miscounted and I won by turns. What do you guys think the proper strategy on this board would be?

--- Interlude (where Goko placed me as first player 8 times before giving matste first player) ---

Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140320/log.517265f6e4b054fd071e3c90.1395345248011.txt
azadin - 2
matste - 1



Code: [Select]
Great Hall, Lookout, Scheme, Horse Traders, JackOfAllTrades, Treasure Map, Explorer, Mountebank, Tribute, Adventurer
With Lookout/Jack being the only two forms of trashing here, Mountebank seemed like a big deal. I got a little nervous when my opponent bought two, and I absolutely did not want to lose the curse split. This was my biggest mistake here, since terminal collisions really gimped some of my turns. I probably should have played Double Jack straight without trying to get fancy with the lookout and Mountebank(s!) I bought, especially since Jack counters cursers decently well. How does Double Jack fend against Mountebank, though, since you're also junking your deck with a card you can't trash?

Game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140320/log.517265f6e4b054fd071e3c90.1395345992877.txt
azadin - 3
matste - 1



Code: [Select]
Vineyard, Oasis, Philosopher's Stone, Armory, Bandit Camp, Explorer, Harvest, Market, Stash, Trading Post
Vineyard. I looked for a way to build an action-dense engine with the board and realized that there wasn't any draw. There was, however, a certain card called Armory that could gain themselves and Oases. It could also gain potions which guaranteed vineyard purchases on the next turn. I was hesitant at first to build up Vineyards since a deck full of armories and oases can't do much else, but when my opponent started getting them, I decided to mirror and hopefully pass him up. I know I didn't play this optimally but I do feel I played better than my opponent here.

If anyone else has other suggestions for me based on the games, please let me know. I love getting feedback. These games weren't the most interesting, in my opinion, but there were probably still some interesting nuances to some of the interactions that I missed.

Thanks for the games matste, and good luck in the rest of the tournament!
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hdu88

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2014, 03:17:21 pm »
0

hdu88 vs OnlyChobo

Game 1
There's a Goons engine, but there's Marauder and no trashing so Goons slog is probably better. I get an early Candlestick Maker (1st reshuffle) in order to control piles in the endgame. I get lucky with a double Goons turn, which lets me use coin tokens to buy Duchy every turn and end it on piles. I think my opponent made some questionable decisions with Survivors, but it probably didn't matter.

1-0

Game 2
Young Witch and Governor with Develop as the bane. We both block Young Witch perfectly for a while (Developing Estate into Develop helps) before he goes for Duchy/Duke and I go for Province. I build a bit more than usual before cashing in on the Provinces, while he goes for the turbo suicide remodel strategy that gets helped by me giving him a bunch of Silvers. In the end I only win because of a lucky 2xGovernor 2xGold turn.

2-0

Game 3
Cultist and no trashing. The question is what to do afterwards. I notice that BoM can be a Menagerie or a Crossroads, so I go for a turbo suicide forge strategy with BoM. At 3 Provinces I draw my deck and notice that my only source of money is Abandoned Mine, and furthermore I have no way to gain Provinces other than forging Provinces, so I forge some stuff into Gold and buy a Silver (which should be a Menagerie in retrospect), intending to forge my $5 cards with Silver and rebuy Silver every turn. My opponent resigns after I gain my 4th Province.

I would like to give a brief shout-out to the deckbuilding game Puzzle Strike and its community. I doubt I'd be able to pull off something as crazy as I did in Game 3 without thinking "What would Dan/arodae6re/SXTLHGaiden/HugAKitten do if they played Dominion?"

3-0

Thanks for the games OnlyChobo. You played really well, but I feel like a few games went in my favor because of shuffle luck.
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hdu88

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2014, 03:52:52 pm »
0

azadin defeats matste 3-1

Game 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140320/log.517265f6e4b054fd071e3c90.1395342527336.txt
Code: [Select]
Poor House, Oasis, Trade Route, Navigator, Procession, Thief, Band of Misfits, Cultist, Duke, Mystic

If you win the Ruins split 8-2, Cultist is probably your best choice at $5 since it's basically a Lab if you don't have any other actions in your deck.

Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140320/log.517265f6e4b054fd071e3c90.1395343823552.txt
Code: [Select]
Great Hall, Workshop, Alchemist, Philosopher's Stone, Bishop, Marauder, Cartographer, Hunting Party, Outpost, Expand

I have no idea if this is right or horribly wrong, but I'd go Hunting Party/Bishop because Marauder is not that strong of a junker, and playing Bishop every turn sounds amazing.

Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140320/log.517265f6e4b054fd071e3c90.1395345248011.txt
Code: [Select]
Great Hall, Lookout, Scheme, Horse Traders, JackOfAllTrades, Treasure Map, Explorer, Mountebank, Tribute, Adventurer
I usually go for Jack shuffle Mountebank shuffle Jack, but again I have no idea if that's right. The thing is, Jack doesn't "junk" your deck because it replaces itself if you draw it. In fact, if you discarded a Curse it will draw 2 cards.

Game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140320/log.517265f6e4b054fd071e3c90.1395345992877.txt
Code: [Select]
Vineyard, Oasis, Philosopher's Stone, Armory, Bandit Camp, Explorer, Harvest, Market, Stash, Trading Post
I feel like you played this better than I could. My "strategy" on Vineyard boards is hoping my opponent doesn't realize the power of Vineyard.
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Jdaki

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #64 on: March 23, 2014, 05:42:31 pm »
0

Jdaki vs Max_D (MJD)
Game 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140323/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1395607366007.txt
Soothsayer into Vault, vs Merc engine shenanigans- Market square might have helped the engine along sufficiently, but otherwise the draws are too smooth for me

Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140323/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1395608129595.txt
Double Tact- storeroom-monument vs some BM-hunting grounds-death card stuff- not convinced this was really that close, though I guess he might have got 16 on his next go

Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140323/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1395609327171.txt
Hunting party- I go for Apothecary as my +2 coins, he tries to use Council room- this does get some big goes near the end, but apothecary with a little NV help is better than I expected!

Thanks to Max for the games, didn't manage to say so in the match. Also Goko had no restarts required which was a nice thing.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 05:47:58 pm by Jdaki »
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lespeutere

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #65 on: March 23, 2014, 08:05:28 pm »
0

I set up a Hermit-Bridge combo [...].  Is this combo already out there?

I've played it before, kind of, but not as sophisticated as you did, apparently. It worked in 12 turns, though.
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140119/log.50fa840ae4b0f82020d81dfd.1390133115788.txt

Edit: Ah, just saw people already discussed. Sry, no regular web access atm.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 08:10:23 pm by lespeutere »
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azadin

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« Reply #66 on: March 23, 2014, 11:37:11 pm »
0

I usually go for Jack shuffle Mountebank shuffle Jack, but again I have no idea if that's right. The thing is, Jack doesn't "junk" your deck because it replaces itself if you draw it. In fact, if you discarded a Curse it will draw 2 cards.

That was pretty much my plan, but having two Mountebanks instead of two Jacks was my mistake, in my opinion. And I originally meant to ask how Jack counters Mountebank since it gives you the curse (which you can trash), and a copper, which you cannot. Typically you want higher money densities in a Jack powered BM game, but I just wasn't sure what the actual effect would be.
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