Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 12  All

Author Topic: Updating the Top 5 lists  (Read 91711 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2011, 10:24:14 pm »
+1

In that case, here's how I'd rank the Worst $2 Cards:

Honorable Mention: Cellar
5: Herbalist
4: Moat
3: Pearl Diver
2: Duchess
1: Secret Chamber

For me, it's close between Secret Chamber and Duchess. Hinterland's other $2 cards, Fool's Gold and Crossroads, just miss the Honorable Mention slot.
I'm pretty sure duchess is the worst. Secret chamber has situations in which it's really good (scrying pool decks, double tactician decks). I don't know of any situation in which duchess is more than "ok". At first, I was going to complain that cellar shouldn't be near the bottom, but I guess there are only 12 $2 cards, so "honorable mention" just means "average". Crossroads missing the honorable mention slot means it's up for honorable mention for the "best" list :)
 
Logged

olneyce

  • 2011 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 245
  • Respect: +210
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2011, 11:33:56 pm »
+2

One useful heuristic for the $2s might be to think about balancing three components: 1) how often they are an important component  of a good deck 2) how often they are a tolerable compensation for not getting enough money to buy something better and 3) how often they are actively damaging.

There are plenty of circumstances where I’d prefer nothing over Secret Chamber, Duchess, Moat, or Herbalist.  OTOH, Pearl Diver doesn’t really ever contribute something uniquely useful.  It’s a cantrip, sure, but plenty of other cards are, too, while also providing other value. 

The reason why Duchess is the worst $2 is because it fails on all these tests. One of the defining features of Dominion is that every card shines in some specific circumstance.  Except for Duchess.  I can’t think of a circumstance where it’s an important card.  And it often does active damage, to the point where I usually refuse it even when I can get it for free.

Crossroads definitely is a cut above the other cards mentioned here because it can play a really important role in some decks (especially if there are green action cards or if it’s the only +action on the board), it is a decent supplement a lot of other times (especially if you can combine it with other drawing cards so that you can get some extra actions and play it once you’ve drawn your green), and isn’t actively damaging too often.  Really it’s only a clear ‘don’t purchase’ if there’s good trashing to clear out all your green and another source of actions.  It certainly doesn’t compare with the really good $2 cards, but it’s not one of the worst.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #102 on: December 07, 2011, 12:04:18 am »
0

One useful heuristic for the $2s might be to think about balancing three components: 1) how often they are an important component  of a good deck 2) how often they are a tolerable compensation for not getting enough money to buy something better and 3) how often they are actively damaging.

There are plenty of circumstances where I’d prefer nothing over Secret Chamber, Duchess, Moat, or Herbalist.  OTOH, Pearl Diver doesn’t really ever contribute something uniquely useful.  It’s a cantrip, sure, but plenty of other cards are, too, while also providing other value. 

The reason why Duchess is the worst $2 is because it fails on all these tests. One of the defining features of Dominion is that every card shines in some specific circumstance.  Except for Duchess.  I can’t think of a circumstance where it’s an important card.  And it often does active damage, to the point where I usually refuse it even when I can get it for free.

Crossroads definitely is a cut above the other cards mentioned here because it can play a really important role in some decks (especially if there are green action cards or if it’s the only +action on the board), it is a decent supplement a lot of other times (especially if you can combine it with other drawing cards so that you can get some extra actions and play it once you’ve drawn your green), and isn’t actively damaging too often.  Really it’s only a clear ‘don’t purchase’ if there’s good trashing to clear out all your green and another source of actions.  It certainly doesn’t compare with the really good $2 cards, but it’s not one of the worst.

The closest thing Duchess has to a circumstance where it "shines" is as part of a 5/2 opening with Lab or Hunting Party; I imagine it might be a good companion to Dukes as well but I've never seen that strategy pursued in an actual game.

I really like your heuristic, by the way.
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #103 on: December 07, 2011, 12:11:43 am »
0

While I agree the worst/best lists are a great help for beginning players who really don't have a clue, they can actually hurt a more experienced player if he doesn't realise every card will have its moments. Context is very important.

Oh, of course, that's why we have the disclaimer, and I agree they're more useful for beginning and intermediate players.  These sorts of articles are fun to write anyway, and the discussion that comes out of them can be quite valuable at all levels.
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

jotheonah

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 989
  • Respect: +952
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #104 on: December 07, 2011, 01:12:39 am »
0

Duchess really improves a Duke strategy. It's like getting a free (albeit terminal) silver with every Duchy, and also a chance to get another green card off your deck. I have seen it in a game. It was really strong.

But just like it's weird to count Peddler as an $8, it's odd to count Duchess as a $2. Because I don't think I've ever actually bought one. Just gained them to balance out the gumming-up factor of my greening.

Also, despite Rinkworks's well-argued critique, I could see Crossroads making the best list. When it's good, it's really good. (Except for my annoying tendency to draw a hand of four green cards and no crossroads followed by a hand of all four Crossroads and no green cards). But combo'd with Scout, almost any action-victory card, baron, or vault it can turn into a must-buy.
Logged
"I know old meta, and joth is useless day 1 but awesome town day 3 and on." --Teproc

He/him

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +938
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #105 on: December 07, 2011, 09:41:13 am »
0

Despite my article, I'm a fan of Crossroads too.  I think I took a negative slant just to counterbalance the initial feeling, right after Donald's preview of the card, that it was super strong, when in fact it's a trap a lot of the time.  But you're right -- when it's good, it's really really good.

As an aside, it's also a whole lot of fun to try to make work, just because there are so many interesting combo possibilities.
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4085
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #106 on: December 07, 2011, 11:37:12 am »
0

I count 16 $2 cards.

My ranking
Chapel - On most boards a must buy to get rid of your start cards fast
Courtyard - The best "deck-thinner" for its price. And if you draw a dead action card, just put it back. Great. Also mostly a must-buy.
Hamlet - one of the best villages available, and you can even have a +buy
Cellar - Maybe it shouldn't be so high, but I mostly buy 1-2, if there are no other "deck-thinner" available.
Crossroads - It's great to have at least one on boards with many good terminals to use +3 Actions, and it's great in the end to draw new cards for going green, so on most games it's useful.
Haven - It's great for equalizing draw luck.
Pawn - Similar to Hamlet, but benefit isn't that great. At least it can be a non-terminal copper.
Fool's Gold - Either it's so good, or so bad. So I leave it in the middle. You have really to know what you're doing if you buy this.
Lighthouse - Comparable to Pawn, but not that flexible. Of course great in 3+player games.
Moat - +2 cards is not that great, but on boards with a lot of attacks, especially in 3+games, it's one of the most important cards. You block 3 curses and draw your silver to get your Province. I can't understand all the haters. Yes, mostly there are better counters to Attacks, but not everybody plays only 2-player games.
Embargo - If you have the rare case that your opponent has a different strategy and you know it early on, then it's great. But mostly a one-shot silver if you don't have the luck to get to $3.
Native Village - This is also very board-dependant. The biggest problem is that you need a Spy or draw your whole deck and discard a card to know what you draw on your mat. On most boards this isn't possible. So you only get your +2 Actions.
Herbalist - I agree, that's not a great card. But it's useful like Scheme is useful. Just put your Potion or Gold back on the deck. It can guarantee a next turn Province buy.
Secret Chamber - I don't like it. It's a bad Vault and heavily depends on the Attacks in the supply. I think it's worse than Moat.
Pearl Diver - It doesn't hurt, but the benefit is minmal
Duchess - The uses are rare, e.g. a VP rush with Duchies and Dukes, all other times it's useless.

Edit: Forgot Embargo
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 11:40:01 am by Qvist »
Logged

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3296
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4443
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #107 on: December 07, 2011, 12:01:22 pm »
0

My ranking
Chapel - On most boards a must buy to get rid of your start cards fast
Courtyard - The best "deck-thinner" for its price.

I think I'm not sure what you mean by "deck-thinner"?
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +938
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #108 on: December 07, 2011, 01:40:03 pm »
0

Native Village - This is also very board-dependant. The biggest problem is that you need a Spy or draw your whole deck and discard a card to know what you draw on your mat. On most boards this isn't possible. So you only get your +2 Actions.

Do you mean that unless you know what the next card is, you never put it on the mat?  Seems to me like a really bad idea.  You get more out of the card if you always put a card there (unless you've got cards to take off) than if you never do.  Then you can eventually have a big turn (without sacrificing the current turn much or at all, as Tactician does), and you cycle through your deck a little faster in the meantime.  Sure, this occasionally means possibly delaying the play of an important card, and sometimes it's not worth taking that risk.  But I find those situations to be much less frequent.
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #109 on: December 07, 2011, 02:05:47 pm »
0

Blind drawing to the NV mat is the typical use case for NV, and it can be quite strong. The main thing that limits NV's usefulness on many boards is that you usually need lots of them, and you really don't want to overpay for them, so you need some ready source of +Buy early in the game. Then you also need some reason to want an NV-based engine of course.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #110 on: December 07, 2011, 02:08:18 pm »
0

One useful heuristic for the $2s might be to think about balancing three components: 1) how often they are an important component  of a good deck 2) how often they are a tolerable compensation for not getting enough money to buy something better and 3) how often they are actively damaging.

I guess I would probably define the worst card as the card that you lose the least by vowing to ignore, i.e.
worst cards = argmin_X P(best strategy includes X)*(P(win using best strategy)-P(win using best strategy which does not involve X))

I don't think the fact that a card can damage your deck should be considered, since you are never *forced* to buy it. That's more of an issue of poor play than a card being bad. And I think that's a problem with some of the old lists. Cards are considered bad because people "over-buy" them. But you can't blame the card for that. Putting hoard in a list of "worst" $6+ cards because it's bad in colony games seems wrong.
Logged

jotheonah

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 989
  • Respect: +952
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #111 on: December 07, 2011, 02:18:14 pm »
0

It's sort of hard to win in a multiplayer game if you're the only one who didn't buy a Hoard. Unless you have some other gold-garnering strategy (Tunnels, Treasure Maps)
Logged
"I know old meta, and joth is useless day 1 but awesome town day 3 and on." --Teproc

He/him

jomini

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
  • Respect: +768
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #112 on: December 07, 2011, 02:50:57 pm »
0

One useful heuristic for the $2s might be to think about balancing three components: 1) how often they are an important component  of a good deck 2) how often they are a tolerable compensation for not getting enough money to buy something better and 3) how often they are actively damaging.

There are plenty of circumstances where I’d prefer nothing over Secret Chamber, Duchess, Moat, or Herbalist.  OTOH, Pearl Diver doesn’t really ever contribute something uniquely useful.  It’s a cantrip, sure, but plenty of other cards are, too, while also providing other value. 

The reason why Duchess is the worst $2 is because it fails on all these tests. One of the defining features of Dominion is that every card shines in some specific circumstance.  Except for Duchess.  I can’t think of a circumstance where it’s an important card.  And it often does active damage, to the point where I usually refuse it even when I can get it for free.

Crossroads definitely is a cut above the other cards mentioned here because it can play a really important role in some decks (especially if there are green action cards or if it’s the only +action on the board), it is a decent supplement a lot of other times (especially if you can combine it with other drawing cards so that you can get some extra actions and play it once you’ve drawn your green), and isn’t actively damaging too often.  Really it’s only a clear ‘don’t purchase’ if there’s good trashing to clear out all your green and another source of actions.  It certainly doesn’t compare with the really good $2 cards, but it’s not one of the worst.

The closest thing Duchess has to a circumstance where it "shines" is as part of a 5/2 opening with Lab or Hunting Party; I imagine it might be a good companion to Dukes as well but I've never seen that strategy pursued in an actual game.

I really like your heuristic, by the way.

The real place where duchess "shines" is off a 5/2 mint opening. Getting quick silver and quick gold is worth having a crappy terminal silver you may only play a few times. Sure, secret chamber and embargo might be better, but duchess fits that role when it is rather critical and gives you better odds of having a strong turn 4

Duchess's real value is, of course, in its alternate gain condition. Pile depleting the duchies/duchesses makes for a really quick way to end the game. I think this is strongest with something like silk road. If your opponent doesn't go for silk road/duchies then you can pile deplete on just the duchies & silk roads. Likewise having traders in hand can turn drop the terminal from this terminal silver and make it an even better freebie. I haven't tried it yet, but I'd be curios to see what would happen if you went duchy hunting with traders using duchesses. It should be quick and painless to get up to 5 coin on average and not too hard to have small number of hands crest 8.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #113 on: December 07, 2011, 05:15:08 pm »
0

Duchess's real value is, of course, in its alternate gain condition. Pile depleting the duchies/duchesses makes for a really quick way to end the game.
The problem with this is that most people here play mostly 2-player where the duchy pile is smaller than the duchess pile, so you actually have to *buy* a few duchesses to deplete the pile.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #114 on: December 07, 2011, 05:47:41 pm »
0

The real place where duchess "shines" is off a 5/2 mint opening. Getting quick silver and quick gold is worth having a crappy terminal silver you may only play a few times. Sure, secret chamber and embargo might be better, but duchess fits that role when it is rather critical and gives you better odds of having a strong turn 4

I can imagine Duchess being about as good as Embargo and SC for Mint openings; but even those two are just okay.  Of course, Fool's Gold is the real blockbuster for a Mint opening.
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2644
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3391
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #115 on: December 07, 2011, 05:51:14 pm »
0

I count 16 $2 cards.

My ranking
Chapel - On most boards a must buy to get rid of your start cards fast
Courtyard - The best "deck-thinner" for its price. And if you draw a dead action card, just put it back. Great. Also mostly a must-buy.
Hamlet - one of the best villages available, and you can even have a +buy
Cellar - Maybe it shouldn't be so high, but I mostly buy 1-2, if there are no other "deck-thinner" available.
Crossroads - It's great to have at least one on boards with many good terminals to use +3 Actions, and it's great in the end to draw new cards for going green, so on most games it's useful.
Haven - It's great for equalizing draw luck.
Pawn - Similar to Hamlet, but benefit isn't that great. At least it can be a non-terminal copper.
Fool's Gold - Either it's so good, or so bad. So I leave it in the middle. You have really to know what you're doing if you buy this.
Lighthouse - Comparable to Pawn, but not that flexible. Of course great in 3+player games.
Moat - +2 cards is not that great, but on boards with a lot of attacks, especially in 3+games, it's one of the most important cards. You block 3 curses and draw your silver to get your Province. I can't understand all the haters. Yes, mostly there are better counters to Attacks, but not everybody plays only 2-player games.
Embargo - If you have the rare case that your opponent has a different strategy and you know it early on, then it's great. But mostly a one-shot silver if you don't have the luck to get to $3.
Native Village - This is also very board-dependant. The biggest problem is that you need a Spy or draw your whole deck and discard a card to know what you draw on your mat. On most boards this isn't possible. So you only get your +2 Actions.
Herbalist - I agree, that's not a great card. But it's useful like Scheme is useful. Just put your Potion or Gold back on the deck. It can guarantee a next turn Province buy.
Secret Chamber - I don't like it. It's a bad Vault and heavily depends on the Attacks in the supply. I think it's worse than Moat.
Pearl Diver - It doesn't hurt, but the benefit is minmal
Duchess - The uses are rare, e.g. a VP rush with Duchies and Dukes, all other times it's useless.

Edit: Forgot Embargo
Duchess, though, is a card you can obtain for free, and the situation where you obtain it for free (buying a Duchy) isn't an uncommon event. Granted, you don't start buying Duchies until the second half of the game. Just by a hair, I would say Secret Chamber is worse. If I were doing a full ranking of the $2s:

1:Chapel
2: Hamlet
3: Courtyard: These 3 cards are much, much better than the other $2s. They are useful in many situations, and they help plenty.
4: Lighthouse
5: Haven This is a tough choice, but a couple Havens really manage your deck properly at all stages of the game.
6: Pawn I like to think of this as a cheap source of buy that can be non-terminal or yield $1 as need be. Still, so much worse than Hamlet.
7: Crossroads
8: Native Village
9: Fool's Gold Along with the previous 3, Fool's Gold shines some of the time, and is awful some of the time. I find these $2's okay--not bad, not great.
10: Embargo
11: Cellar It mostly does what Crossroads does, just less well.
12: Herbalist
13: Moat
14: Pearl Diver Barely better than not having a Pearl Diver.
15: Duchess
16: Secret Chamber Eh, perhaps these last two should be switched. But I have a hard time ranking Duchess, which can be gained for free, as worse than Secret Chamber, which is a waste of a valuable buy, probably in the all-important early stages of the game.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

tlloyd

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 404
  • Respect: +84
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #116 on: December 07, 2011, 06:07:16 pm »
0

Blind drawing to the NV mat is the typical use case for NV, and it can be quite strong. The main thing that limits NV's usefulness on many boards is that you usually need lots of them, and you really don't want to overpay for them, so you need some ready source of +Buy early in the game. Then you also need some reason to want an NV-based engine of course.

I never seem to make this work, as my NVs invariably set aside other NVs. Is there a right number of these to avoid this problem, or is more always better?
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #117 on: December 07, 2011, 06:25:46 pm »
0

OK, I'll play. My full rankings:

1. chapel
2. hamlet
3. courtyard
4. lighthouse
I don't think you can really argue with the top 4, though you might switch hamlet and courtyard, because courtyard BM is so nutso good...
5. fool's gold
6. native village
7. crossroads
These cards get up here because they can really turn insane. Often you don't want them, but in the right situation, they are dominant.
8. haven
Re-organizing your cards can be quite useful, but haven doesn't really ever get to the point of being game-breaking.
9. embargo
If nothing else, you can't ignore that it might have an impact, and have to have an adaptable strategy.
10. pawn
11. cellar
these cards are all usually not bad, but not ever really great.
12. herbalist
despite being this low, it's good a reasonable amount of the time if you need a +buy and/or have a spare action. returning a gold or plat to your deck is a pretty strong ability.
13. moat
14. secret chamber
poor reactions. This is all the 2-player games talking... Moat is probably to 10 in 3-player and top 7 in 4-player, and it can fall anywhere in-between depending on how much you play games of each size...
15. pearl diver
16. duchess
pearl diver often doesn't do anything, but at least you buy it sometimes, which is more than you can say for duchess.

I have a hard time ranking Duchess, which can be gained for free, as worse than Secret Chamber, which is a waste of a valuable buy, probably in the all-important early stages of the game.
You can also waste a buy on a mid-game chapel, but that doesn't make chapel bad...
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 06:28:38 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4085
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #118 on: December 07, 2011, 06:32:41 pm »
0

My ranking
Chapel - On most boards a must buy to get rid of your start cards fast
Courtyard - The best "deck-thinner" for its price.

I think I'm not sure what you mean by "deck-thinner"?

Ok, maybe this is just my term, but I used it that often that I thought it is well-known.
If you have a big deck, these card make your deck seemingly thinner by getting your best cards in hand more often.
I don't know how you call those cards, "Cycler" maybe.

Native Village - This is also very board-dependant. The biggest problem is that you need a Spy or draw your whole deck and discard a card to know what you draw on your mat. On most boards this isn't possible. So you only get your +2 Actions.

Do you mean that unless you know what the next card is, you never put it on the mat?  Seems to me like a really bad idea.  You get more out of the card if you always put a card there (unless you've got cards to take off) than if you never do.  Then you can eventually have a big turn (without sacrificing the current turn much or at all, as Tactician does), and you cycle through your deck a little faster in the meantime.  Sure, this occasionally means possibly delaying the play of an important card, and sometimes it's not worth taking that risk.  But I find those situations to be much less frequent.

Maybe I just can't play that card. If I use the mat for pseudo-trashing, to put the junk there, I got no luck, putting my newly buyed card there and I use it for mega-turns, it was mostly too slow.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 06:34:52 pm by Qvist »
Logged

mischiefmaker

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 185
  • Respect: +108
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #119 on: December 07, 2011, 07:37:38 pm »
0

The real place where duchess "shines" is off a 5/2 mint opening. Getting quick silver and quick gold is worth having a crappy terminal silver you may only play a few times. Sure, secret chamber and embargo might be better, but duchess fits that role when it is rather critical and gives you better odds of having a strong turn 4

I can imagine Duchess being about as good as Embargo and SC for Mint openings; but even those two are just okay.  Of course, Fool's Gold is the real blockbuster for a Mint opening.
Simulator says:

Mint/Duchess/BM averages 16.3 turns and loses to a 4/3 BM 38-52; wins 57-34 if both have a 5/2 start.
Mint/Embargo/BM averages 16.8 turns and loses to a 4/3 BM 34-56; wins 54-35 if both have a 5/2 start.*
Mint/Secret Chamber/BM averages 17.4 turns and loses to a 4/3 BM 31-61; wins 50-41 if both have a 5/2 start.

Mint/Fool's Gold, on the other hand, averages 13.2 and crushes BM 92-5 (97-2 if both are 5/2).

*I think this is probably the best of the three strategies, though, since either the simulator does not know how to play Embargo correctly, or I do not know how to tell it to play Embargo differently, or both. In my sample games the bot Embargoes Curse, whereas a good human player would likely Embargo Gold or Silver.
Logged

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3296
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4443
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #120 on: December 07, 2011, 07:43:42 pm »
0

My ranking
Chapel - On most boards a must buy to get rid of your start cards fast
Courtyard - The best "deck-thinner" for its price.

I think I'm not sure what you mean by "deck-thinner"?

Ok, maybe this is just my term, but I used it that often that I thought it is well-known.
If you have a big deck, these card make your deck seemingly thinner by getting your best cards in hand more often.
I don't know how you call those cards, "Cycler" maybe.

Maybe "Cycler", but that's usually used for cards like Cellar and Warehouse. "Deck-thinner" usually means 'trasher'—so it's obviously Chapel that's the best deck-thinner for its price. I think what Courtyard is is basically just "terminal draw".
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #121 on: December 07, 2011, 09:09:19 pm »
0

I never seem to make this work, as my NVs invariably set aside other NVs. Is there a right number of these to avoid this problem, or is more always better?
It happens. It's fine. Yes, more is generally better.
Logged

brokoli

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1119
  • Respect: +786
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #122 on: December 08, 2011, 03:02:26 am »
0

Why does everyone hate the secret chamber ? Its a reaction card definitely better than moat.

My ranking :

1. Chapel
2. Hamlet : excellent village, nice combo engine (library, menagerie...)
3. Crossroads : excellent card with baron, island, and others.
4. Lighthouse : best protection.
5. Haven
6. Fool's gold
7. Embargo
8. Courtyard : nice, but terminal. I prefer the haven.
9. Pawn : often bought.
10. Native village : good, but destroyed by hamlet.
11. Cellar : usually good.
12. Secret Chamber : good reaction against sea hag / pirate ship / margrave / ... and nice non-reaction.
13. Herbalist : sometimes good, but often ignored.
14. Pearl Diver : like pawn, often bought, and not so bad.
15. Duchess
16. Moat
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 03:12:02 am by brokoli »
Logged

Reyk

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
  • Respect: +24
    • View Profile
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #123 on: December 08, 2011, 07:48:32 am »
0

How does the Secret Chamber-Tactician combo work?

Not really well actually. It does work with some Lab support, but it's still very slow to set up and not really reliable once you have a bunch of green cards in your deck.

Tactician-Vault, however, is rather strong.

I had some interesting interactions going on here:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111206-095535-3ea1673b.html

Yes, Tactician/Secret Chamber is slow, but there where not that many alternatives. The Pirate Ship (while probably a bad buy against Spice Merchant/Secret Chamber) is threat to BM (maybe you can still try BM, as it's not easy to stack the ships, but there isn't much action support for BM). Another Threat to BM might be an opponent only bying Faigrounds, but that's difficult too here without Action Providers and so many dead cards.

Originally I had the idea to bring Fairgrounds to 15 cards and than work with 6$ (7) from double Tactician. That's why I misplayed turn 10 discarding the Haven to Secret Chamber. But alternately buying Fairgrounds (with 10 cards)/Province (which I changed plans into only then) doesn't seem so bad either on this board. So you play Haven one turn, set aside Spice Merchant if possible and buy Faigrounds/Copper (for the Merchant). Then Province the other turn. The Merchant to some degree and the Scheme mitigate the greening effect.

I made further mistakes due to some miscounting buying the Curse in turn 19 when it was not likely at all that I could go to 15 cards.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 07:50:34 am by Reyk »
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4386
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Updating the Top 5 lists
« Reply #124 on: December 08, 2011, 08:21:10 am »
0

Why does everyone hate the secret chamber ? Its a reaction card definitely better than moat.

My ranking :

1. Chapel
2. Hamlet : excellent village, nice combo engine (library, menagerie...)
3. Crossroads : excellent card with baron, island, and others.
4. Lighthouse : best protection.
5. Haven
6. Fool's gold
7. Embargo
8. Courtyard : nice, but terminal. I prefer the haven.
9. Pawn : often bought.
10. Native village : good, but destroyed by hamlet.
11. Cellar : usually good.
12. Secret Chamber : good reaction against sea hag / pirate ship / margrave / ... and nice non-reaction.
13. Herbalist : sometimes good, but often ignored.
14. Pearl Diver : like pawn, often bought, and not so bad.
15. Duchess
16. Moat
Why in the world is it better than moat? It's reaction is much weaker, and quite frankly its main ability is usually weaker, too.
Here's my order:
1. Chapel
2. Courtyard
3. Lighthouse
4. Hamlet
While quite strong, I think hamlet is pretty overrated. Having said that... I don't have any major qualms putting it over lighthouse, I just don't quite.
5. Pawn
You know, I think this is quite underrated. Works wonders with all kinds of cards (KC, any kind of spying from you OR your opponent, and in a lot of situations you can use it for card+money, which ain't bad at all)
6. Native village
Huge power when you need a mega-turn. Not bad in the general case either, just you need to be patient about taking stuff off the mat.
7. Crossroads
Not great all that often, but can be mega-powerful when it is. Also often good as a one-off in action-starved decks.
8. Moat
9. Haven
10. Embargo
11. Fool's Gold
12. Cellar
13. Pearl Diver
14. Herbalist
15. Secret Chamber
16. Duchess

Of course all have their moments, and actually I think Pearl Diver itself is pretty underrated too. The issue it has is that it's just never really awesome.
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 12  All
 

Page created in 2.717 seconds with 21 queries.