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[brokoli]

One of my last games had the following kingdom :

Fool's Gold
Herbalist
Lighthouse
Fortune teller
Alchemist
Thief
Council's room
Ill-Gotten Gains
Library
Expand

I think this kingdom is pretty interesting. There are some FG supports (Herbalist and Council room, maybe Alchemist), but IGG and Thief are strong counters.
IGG seems obvious to me. But how would you play otherwise ?
- Fortune teller is usually quite nice with cursers. Would you take one ?
- Expand on IGG for province seems cute, but is it worth it ?
- Would you buy a thief ? It depends on your opponent's strategy but how ?
- Lighthouse against thief ?
- Maybe I am wrong... do you think Alchemist + Council room / Herbalist + FG ignoring IGG can be competitive ?

[Titandrake]

Mixing Fool's Gold and IGG sounds like a bad idea, so it's pretty much one or the other.

Points for FG: Herbalist can give consistency and early +Buy, Council Room can massively increase odds of FG collision.

Points for IGG: Has more flexibility in buys, because it doesn't require buying as many FG as possible as quickly as possible. So, it can fit in Lighthouse, Thief, and Fortune Teller more easily.

Both strategies benefit from Thief: If Thief hits Fool's Gold, that's good no matter whether the player actually wants FG or not. If Thief hits IGG, the player can gain it to hand out a Curse without having to spend a $5 buy on it.

I think I'd actually try the Herbalist/Council Room/Fool's Gold route, ignoring IGG. The IGG -> Duchy pile out strategy doesn't sound quite as fast, and if you pile out Fool's Gold then you can exert a lot of pressure with quick Provinces (because the IGG player has to start picking up Duchies a lot sooner.)

[Warfreak2]

The IGG -> Duchy pile out strategy doesn't sound quite as fast

Indeed, if Thief hits IGGs then there will still be IGGs left after the Curses are gone, which will then just be $5 worse-than-Silvers. How about IGG/Expand? You can do IGG -> Province while there's still some IGGs left, and Estate -> IGG speeds up the piling. Council Room/Fools Gold is probably faster though.

[brokoli]

Yes, but still, I'm not really convinced by Fool's gold. The curses gained from IGG slow down it.

[dondon151]

If your opponent lets you get all of the FGs (or even, say, 8), you can spike Provinces pretty easily with a drawing terminal.

[Qvist]

But if you get 10 Curses you need 2 Provinces more. I think I would go for IGG, but would probably buy FG over Silver if my opponent goes for them.

[Geronimoo]

Simulator suggests IGG+Fortune Teller Big Money (this goes for Provinces). It has a healthy edge against Council Room/FG (68-29). The straight IGG-Duchy rush gets crushed by Council Room/FG (20-80).

[brokoli]

Simulator suggests IGG+Fortune Teller Big Money (this goes for Provinces). It has a healthy edge against Council Room/FG (68-29). The straight IGG-Duchy rush gets crushed by Council Room/FG (20-80).

Thanks ! Very interesting, we see again how fortune teller is underrated ^^

[eliegel34]

This makes sense, Fortune Teller is typically good in a slog, especially with no other good terminals.  Library and Council Room would be better for BM but they compete with IGG.  Fortune Teller also speeds up how quickly the Curses get shuffled into the opponent's deck.   

[HiveMindEmulator]

There's no way Fool's Gold is going to work. If you don't buy any IGGs, the IGG guy can buy Provinces with no problem, especially if he just adds in a Council Room or something. And if you buy IGGs AND Fool's Golds then I don't think you can get enough Fool's Golds fast enough.

In general you can only skip IGG when you can build an engine fast enough to start scoring a lot before your opponent can end the game. The problem here is that the only trashing is Expand, which is going to take way too long to get. And while Herbalist can help build an Alchemist stack, the Curses are going to be too much of an issue.

This is an IGG game. Fortune Teller is a good use of sub-$5 hands, as is Lighthouse if your opponent goes for attacks as well. Because you're getting these actions which can be drawn dead, adding a late CR probably won't be worth it most of the time, but it's something you want to be aware of. Expand is also decent on exactly 7. I'd avoid Thief, since FT is a better attack here.

[Davio]

FG with no real trashing and cursing? No thanks.

I think IGG is the way to go here, with Fortune Teller as support, maybe Thief, but probably not.
Because the game will be slowed down by the Curses and the lack of real economy (other than IGG's faux Silver action) Alchemist may be a good investment. It may help you come out the other end a bit better. If you can consistently Expand some IGGs into Provinces that would be good.

Also, Herbalist and Alchemist have a synergy: Just put back the Alchemists first and then the Potion (it didn't matter on Iso but it may on Goko) to start your following two turns with Alchemists.

[AJD]

I dunno... I once lost a game against someone who basically rushed FGs with almost no support (picking up one Embassy late, I think), while I went for IGGs:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5664.msg143938#msg143938

[Davio]

I dunno... I once lost a game against someone who basically rushed FGs with almost no support (picking up one Embassy late, I think), while I went for IGGs:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5664.msg143938#msg143938

That suprises me.

Maybe Fortune Teller is enough to tip the balance?
Otherwise, yeah, well, I dunnow.

[dondon151]

Fortune Teller definitely has modest power against a non-engine deck.

I'm still fairly sure that FG is preferable to Silver, though. You might open FG/FT and pick up IGG on all $5+ hands and FG on all other hands. FG isn't that amazing without +buy, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were halfway decent in this potential slog of a game.

[aaron0013]

I don't think lighthouses would be worth it with FG on the board since it doesn't stop curses. Unless your opponent goes heavy on the Thieves or something.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I dunno... I once lost a game against someone who basically rushed FGs with almost no support (picking up one Embassy late, I think), while I went for IGGs:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5664.msg143938#msg143938

If your opponent is ignoring IGGs, then after like 4, you should get a Council Room (Or Margrave/Embassy in your other game -- anything that draws cards). As the number of Curses in their deck goes up, the marginal impact of each Curse starts shrinking; and if your deck is like pure treasure, the benefit of adding a big drawing card to your deck is more than adding a 5th/6th Curse to theirs.