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[GendoIkari]

There's quite possible multiple answers for this, but this just happened in a real game, and it was quite interesting:

After playing Ironmonger, I chose to keep a Copper on top of my deck instead of discarding it. Why?

Notes: Ironmonger could have just as easily been Spy. Though it was a Copper in my game, it could have been a Curse/Estate/Ruins/Shelter... in other words, the answer has nothing to do with wanting a Copper in your hand.

Also, the answer is not as simple as "you want to draw it so you can trash it (Upgrade)".

[Jimmmmm]

You expect to be Possessed?

[KingZog3]

You have Mystic so you can name the card? Lookout to trash it (you said not draw it)?

[Jimmmmm]

You're about to play a Smithy or something and you don't want to trigger a re-shuffle?

[GendoIkari]

Not Posession.. I suppose that's the answer to just about every "exception to the rule" puzzle though. No trashing involved at all, Mystic would be disqualified as wanting the card in hand (it would generally be better to take a random guess at maybe drawing a card than to definitely draw a useless card).

Jimmmmm's on the right track...

[Jimmmmm]

You had two more Ironmongers (or some other cantrips) in your hand and you want to ensure that you can trigger your Menagerie?

[KingZog3]

Not Posession.. I suppose that's the answer to just about every "exception to the rule" puzzle though. No trashing involved at all, Mystic would be disqualified as wanting the card in hand (it would generally be better to take a random guess at maybe drawing a card than to definitely draw a useless card).

You can still use copper for money. Otherwise you risk not drawing anything.

You were deck tracking and you know your next hand will have Moneylender to trash the copper?

[Jimmmmm]

Not Posession.. I suppose that's the answer to just about every "exception to the rule" puzzle though. No trashing involved at all, Mystic would be disqualified as wanting the card in hand (it would generally be better to take a random guess at maybe drawing a card than to definitely draw a useless card).

You can still use copper for money. Otherwise you risk not drawing anything.

You were deck tracking and you know your next hand will have Moneylender to trash the copper?

He said the Copper could be any bad card.

[eHalcyon]

If Jimm was on the right track earlier, maybe you were looking to trigger a reshuffle with it in hand, so that it would miss the reshuffle.  But that actually shouldn't be so helpful, because making it miss *this* reshuffle is usually better than making it miss the *next* reshuffle.


Another answer: deck tracking, you know your Amb is going to be in that hand.

[KingZog3]

Not Posession.. I suppose that's the answer to just about every "exception to the rule" puzzle though. No trashing involved at all, Mystic would be disqualified as wanting the card in hand (it would generally be better to take a random guess at maybe drawing a card than to definitely draw a useless card).

You can still use copper for money. Otherwise you risk not drawing anything.

You were deck tracking and you know your next hand will have Moneylender to trash the copper?

He said the Copper could be any bad card.

Oh yeah, my bad.

[GendoIkari]

You had two more Ironmongers (or some other cantrips) in your hand and you want to ensure that you can trigger your Menagerie?

Bigger hint I suppose.. When I say you don't want the card in hand, I mean you really don't want it in hand....

[KingZog3]

You had two more Ironmongers (or some other cantrips) in your hand and you want to ensure that you can trigger your Menagerie?

Bigger hint I suppose.. When I say you don't want the card in hand, I mean you really don't want it in hand....

Poor House?

[GendoIkari]

If Jimm was on the right track earlier, maybe you were looking to trigger a reshuffle with it in hand, so that it would miss the reshuffle.  But that actually shouldn't be so helpful, because making it miss *this* reshuffle is usually better than making it miss the *next* reshuffle.


Another answer: deck tracking, you know your Amb is going to be in that hand.

Getting closer. You do indeed plan on making it miss the reshuffle...

[GendoIkari]

You had two more Ironmongers (or some other cantrips) in your hand and you want to ensure that you can trigger your Menagerie?

Bigger hint I suppose.. When I say you don't want the card in hand, I mean you really don't want it in hand....

Poor House?

I don't think Poor House would ever cause you to put a bad card back on top....

[Jimmmmm]

Maybe you have 5 cards left and you somehow know the other 4 are really good (Navigator?) and you don't want the good ones to miss your reshuffle? (Say they were a Crossroads and 3 Goons.)

[GendoIkari]

Maybe you have 5 cards left and you somehow know the other 4 are really good (Navigator?) and you don't want the good ones to miss your reshuffle? (Say they were a Crossroads and 3 Goons.)

That's really the same as the Smithy answer isn't it?

Hint: the number of cards left in your deck definitely matters.

[KingZog3]

Your opponent is playing Margrave engine every turn. You have only 5 cards left in your draw pile. By leaving it, you get to shuffle your discard to draw a card then discard your bad card leaving it out of a shuffle.

[GendoIkari]

Your opponent is playing Margrave engine every turn. You have only 5 cards left in your draw pile. By leaving it, you get to shuffle your discard to draw a card then discard your bad card leaving it out of a shuffle.

I like this one. Probably the closest to mine.

Answer:
Sage       

Explanation:
Copper was the last card in my draw pile. I was about to play a Sage. If I discard the Copper, Sage immediately shuffles everything, including the Copper. If I keep the Copper, Sage sets it aside, then Shuffles everything without the Copper.

[KingZog3]

Your opponent is playing Margrave engine every turn. You have only 5 cards left in your draw pile. By leaving it, you get to shuffle your discard to draw a card then discard your bad card leaving it out of a shuffle.

I like this one. Probably the closest to mine.

Answer:
Sage       

Explanation:
Copper was the last card in my draw pile. I was about to play a Sage. If I discard the Copper, Sage immediately shuffles everything, including the Copper. If I keep the Copper, Sage sets it aside, then Shuffles everything without the Copper.

Very nice. Golem works for that too.

[GendoIkari]

Your opponent is playing Margrave engine every turn. You have only 5 cards left in your draw pile. By leaving it, you get to shuffle your discard to draw a card then discard your bad card leaving it out of a shuffle.

I like this one. Probably the closest to mine.

Answer:
Sage       

Explanation:
Copper was the last card in my draw pile. I was about to play a Sage. If I discard the Copper, Sage immediately shuffles everything, including the Copper. If I keep the Copper, Sage sets it aside, then Shuffles everything without the Copper.

Very nice. Golem works for that too.

Yeah, I realized that. Though not with Ruins. And Adventurer works with Ruins and Curses, but not Copper. Of course Sage doesn't work with Provinces and Duchies, while the others do.

[RTT]

another possible answer: you are about to play a harvest and ist the only copper/curse/ruin/shelter in your deck

[Qvist]

If you don't mind, GendoIkari, I have a good one too.
Edge casers, here's something for you.

With my last action of the current turn I play a Baron. I have an Estate in hand, but choose to not discard it. Why?
I can only think of one reason.

[RTT]

You have allready 16 coins and want the buy to get the last two provinces and get the extra estate for a tie braker

[Awaclus]

With my last action of the current turn I play a Baron. I have an Estate in hand, but choose to not discard it. Why?
I can only think of one reason.

You need to gain three cards this turn for any reason.

[Qvist]

Oh yes, d'oh. I think too complicated. You can just use the buy for another card if you have enough money and gain an additional Estate.
But maybe someone can think of what I had in mind.

[Jimmmmm]

You have a Venture in hand and nothing in your draw pile?

[RTT]

you have trader in hand and want an extra silver for your feodums and you have allready 6$ to buy 2 silvers or 8$ to buy 2 feodums

[Asper]

Oh yes, d'oh. I think too complicated. You can just use the buy for another card if you have enough money and gain an additional Estate.
But maybe someone can think of what I had in mind.

It still works if Estate has Embargo Tokens on it. Or if Coppers are out (somebody KCed Beggar all the time) and you have Haggler in play. Any case where gaining the Estate is better than buying it.

[DG]

Yes there are really too many answers for this. You could know there is a warehouse in your remaining cards and choose to keep the poor card for discarding next turn (also scenarios where you buy an inn). You could expect masquerade to be played next turn and want a bad card to pass. You could expect to be possessed next turn. You could expect combination attacks such as ghost ship with jester to come from your opponent each turn. You could be wanting to play a cartographer or navigator this turn without reshuffling. There could be just one copper in your deck so leaving it on top means that a hunting party would definitely draw the copper and then search for a unique card. The copper could provide good value to a harvest. And so on.

[GendoIkari]

Yes there are really too many answers for this. You could know there is a warehouse in your remaining cards and choose to keep the poor card for discarding next turn (also scenarios where you buy an inn). You could expect masquerade to be played next turn and want a bad card to pass. You could expect to be possessed next turn. You could expect combination attacks such as ghost ship with jester to come from your opponent each turn. You could be wanting to play a cartographer or navigator this turn without reshuffling. There could be just one copper in your deck so leaving it on top means that a hunting party would definitely draw the copper and then search for a unique card. The copper could provide good value to a harvest. And so on.

I was trying to figure out how to specify that the goal of the play was to avoid drawing Copper into hand, without also completely giving it away. With the whole "it could be Copper or Curse or Estate or Ruins" thing I was trying to eliminate any such answers that involved the specific card name (such as Hunting Party or Menagerie or Harvest), but I didn't word it well enough.

[KingZog3]

Yes there are really too many answers for this. You could know there is a warehouse in your remaining cards and choose to keep the poor card for discarding next turn (also scenarios where you buy an inn). You could expect masquerade to be played next turn and want a bad card to pass. You could expect to be possessed next turn. You could expect combination attacks such as ghost ship with jester to come from your opponent each turn. You could be wanting to play a cartographer or navigator this turn without reshuffling. There could be just one copper in your deck so leaving it on top means that a hunting party would definitely draw the copper and then search for a unique card. The copper could provide good value to a harvest. And so on.

I was trying to figure out how to specify that the goal of the play was to avoid drawing Copper into hand, without also completely giving it away. With the whole "it could be Copper or Curse or Estate or Ruins" thing I was trying to eliminate any such answers that involved the specific card name (such as Hunting Party or Menagerie or Harvest), but I didn't word it well enough.

That doesn't eliminate those answers, even if it's any bad card. You could still want that Curse, and especially Ruins, with any card that requires different names.

[eHalcyon]

Oh yes, d'oh. I think too complicated. You can just use the buy for another card if you have enough money and gain an additional Estate.
But maybe someone can think of what I had in mind.

Silk Road wants more Estates?
You want to Farmland the Estate in hand into a $4?

[Awaclus]

Oh yes, d'oh. I think too complicated. You can just use the buy for another card if you have enough money and gain an additional Estate.
But maybe someone can think of what I had in mind.

Buying and Watchtowering Rats while the Estate pile is empty, so your hand will miss the reshuffle, and having your entire hand miss the reshuffle is more powerful than buying a $5-8 card instead and having the single Estate miss the reshuffle is more powerful than buying an additional $1-4 card. For example, your discard pile could be KC KC Bridge Bridge Bridge and your hand could be the entire Curse pile and 30 coppers: in this situation, I believe it would be the correct play to skip a Province buy for triggering the reshuffle now.

[Qvist]

Oh yes, d'oh. I think too complicated. You can just use the buy for another card if you have enough money and gain an additional Estate.
But maybe someone can think of what I had in mind.

Silk Road wants more Estates?
You want to Farmland the Estate in hand into a $4?

*ding* *ding* We have a winner. That's what I had in mind.

But you all had some pretty good answers.

[eHalcyon]

Oh yes, d'oh. I think too complicated. You can just use the buy for another card if you have enough money and gain an additional Estate.
But maybe someone can think of what I had in mind.

Silk Road wants more Estates?
You want to Farmland the Estate in hand into a $4?

*ding* *ding* We have a winner. That's what I had in mind.

But you all had some pretty good answers.

Which answer? I have two.

[Jimmmmm]

I think it was the Farmland one. The other one's nowhere near edge-casey enough.

[Qvist]

I didn't see two, it's one. You don't discard the Estate to gain another one and buy a Farmland to trash the Estate into a Silk Road, so a Farmland and Silk Road extra. If you have no other cards in hand than Treasure cards and this Estate it makes no difference because you have $10 if you discard it and can buy a Farmland and a Silk Road too, but with a Gold, Gold, Baron, Estate, Province hand it matters. As Baron is pretty good with Silk Road I like this scenario because it may actually come up.

[GendoIkari]

Yes there are really too many answers for this. You could know there is a warehouse in your remaining cards and choose to keep the poor card for discarding next turn (also scenarios where you buy an inn). You could expect masquerade to be played next turn and want a bad card to pass. You could expect to be possessed next turn. You could expect combination attacks such as ghost ship with jester to come from your opponent each turn. You could be wanting to play a cartographer or navigator this turn without reshuffling. There could be just one copper in your deck so leaving it on top means that a hunting party would definitely draw the copper and then search for a unique card. The copper could provide good value to a harvest. And so on.

I was trying to figure out how to specify that the goal of the play was to avoid drawing Copper into hand, without also completely giving it away. With the whole "it could be Copper or Curse or Estate or Ruins" thing I was trying to eliminate any such answers that involved the specific card name (such as Hunting Party or Menagerie or Harvest), but I didn't word it well enough.

That doesn't eliminate those answers, even if it's any bad card. You could still want that Curse, and especially Ruins, with any card that requires different names.

What I meant was that you would make the exact same decision if that Copper had been a Curse, without changing any other parameters of your deck. So you can't say "Your deck only has one Copper and you want more unique cards" if you're talking about a Curse instead... you would have to change your answer to "Your deck only has one Curse..." With the actual Sage/Golem answer, nothing at all about the deck or the answer needs to change for the solution to work, even if that Copper magically transformed into a Curse or Estate.

[jomini]

A few additional options:

1. You are discarding two big cards for your Outpost turn (e.g. two Minions, two Apothecaries, two Libs, two Tr in an early Alchemist deck, etc.) and then playing a Moat. Discarding a junk card first means you have a 1/3 chance of drawing both your big cards. Leaving any random junk card makes it 100% than you will have at least one of them in your 3 card hand.
2. You expect to be hit with a Masquerade next turn and want to be sure to have the junk in hand to pass.
3. You have 5 Treasuries or other means of top decking 5 cards during cleanup, leaving the junk on top makes for good Swindler/Knights/Rogue defense (it also works well against Pirate Ship/Thief/Noble Brigand a bit more situationally). You can also use this to stack the deck so your opponent's Tribute hits junk instead of action (really hilarious to do with curses, people HATE it when you perpetually top deck the two curses you bought against their Tribute engine).
4. You expect to be hit by a Minion next turn and would rather have it in the discard than in your 4 card hand.
5. Rebuild and Farming Village can follow the same logic as Sage/Golem - if you leave the card on top before play, you will be able to discard after drawing the card you really want (e.g. Rebuild on top - name Estate, reveal past your junk, shuffle up a new draw deck, reveal & Rebuild a Duchy into a Province, discard the junk).
6. You want to Island/Native village away the junk next turn or this respectively.
7. You need discard fodder for the next card down next turn. E.g. you know you will draw junk/Hamlet/Smithy, leaving the junk lowers the odds of having to discard something strong to the Inn. E.g. you know next hand will be junk/Tac
8. You want to be able to play more cards without digging into the deck. E.g. you played Spy, drew Scout (thanks to Swindler) and want to play the Scout to get free Peddlers. Discarding the junk increases the odds that your Scout will turn up Nobles that you don't want this turn (you have no other cash/buys in deck).

[papaHav]

Contraband correctly prevented you from buying the last estate. Play baron gain it

[GendoIkari]

Contraband correctly prevented you from buying the last estate. Play baron gain it

Assuming that you played Contraband during your Black Market buy, of course.