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Author Topic: I need to remove some cards from my games  (Read 53962 times)

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eHalcyon

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #175 on: May 01, 2013, 11:41:48 pm »
+2

Familiar is hands down the best card with a potion in its cost, so if people aren't buying it it's just because your group doesn't realize how powerful cursing attacks are.  (Or you play a lot of 4+ player.)
I am actually starting to put my hands up and say vineyards has a spot in the discussion.

As a fun or not fun card? Or another part of the discussion?

I think as a "most powerful potion cost card"?
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KingZog3

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #176 on: May 01, 2013, 11:49:07 pm »
0

Familiar is hands down the best card with a potion in its cost, so if people aren't buying it it's just because your group doesn't realize how powerful cursing attacks are.  (Or you play a lot of 4+ player.)
I am actually starting to put my hands up and say vineyards has a spot in the discussion.

As a fun or not fun card? Or another part of the discussion?

I think as a "most powerful potion cost card"?

Oh. Perhaps, but I thought the point was to inform bodybuilder with which expansions he may like. He doesn't even like Chancellor because it's not that useful. I get the feeling cards like Familiar won't impress him.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #177 on: May 02, 2013, 12:42:21 am »
0

ok at the end saboteur is out, I tried online and I do not like if he is in play. very low scores and match that ends early.

Now,  without opening another topic, I ask you: would buy seaside but also want to be sure that there are no cards unbalanced. I do not mean not good, but I mean cards like saboteur, that hurt their work, bringing boredom and frustration in games.

other question: what do you think of alchemy and cornucopia? seem to me the less beautiful for what they offer

Seaside is a wonderful expansion, especially for social setups. It is arguably the most powerful set out there. You may not like Ghost Ship and Sea Hag though.

I personally love Cornucopia, but it can be extremely difficult to play, and requires a very good understanding of deck balance and fast-trashing strategies. I don't recommend buying it until you have pretty much all the other sets (and definitely not before Seaside or Prosperity).

Alchemy is bad because it's SLOW. Familiar, as noted, can be rage-inducing. Scrying Pool takes forever to resolve in live play. Philosopher's Stone does as well. And Alchemy games in general last extremely long and involve a ton of luck.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 12:43:40 am by Stealth Tomato »
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eHalcyon

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #178 on: May 02, 2013, 01:26:08 am »
0

Familiar is hands down the best card with a potion in its cost, so if people aren't buying it it's just because your group doesn't realize how powerful cursing attacks are.  (Or you play a lot of 4+ player.)
I am actually starting to put my hands up and say vineyards has a spot in the discussion.

As a fun or not fun card? Or another part of the discussion?

I think as a "most powerful potion cost card"?

Oh. Perhaps, but I thought the point was to inform bodybuilder with which expansions he may like. He doesn't even like Chancellor because it's not that useful. I get the feeling cards like Familiar won't impress him.

Thread discussion tends to wander after a while.

Familiar can be swingy, and that can irk some people... but it happens.  bodybuilder didn't complain about Swindler or Torturer (and yeah Torturer can be swingy -- who can get the chain going first?) so Familiar might be OK for him.  I'm actually not sure what he's not a fan of, aside from specific cards.  Some are generally not bought (e.g. Chancellor), some are frustrating and often weak (Saboteur).  He also seemed not to want to play with extra components (like VP tokens).  I can't figure out a general thing he dislikes.

Best advice is just to try everything.  If there are cards that are disliked, remove them.  No big deal.  Honestly, everything is balanced and everything can shine in at least a few scenarios, or not be worth buying in a few scenarios.  Some just are usually almost always worthwhile or worthless.  But nothing is 100% always bought or always ignored, I think.  But if you dislike a card, there is no great reason why you can't leave it out.
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Davio

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #179 on: May 02, 2013, 02:40:19 am »
0

ok at the end saboteur is out, I tried online and I do not like if he is in play. very low scores and match that ends early.

Now,  without opening another topic, I ask you: would buy seaside but also want to be sure that there are no cards unbalanced. I do not mean not good, but I mean cards like saboteur, that hurt their work, bringing boredom and frustration in games.

other question: what do you think of alchemy and cornucopia? seem to me the less beautiful for what they offer
Cornucopia is great as it promotes diversity.

I will cut you short and explain Menagerie is a great card and different than Wishing Well. It's not that difficult to get a hand of uniques and Menagerie, especially after someone plays something like Militia or...Goons, or Minion, or Cutpurse or...well, you get the drift. Cornucopia also has Hamlet which is a great little Village for $2 and helps to activate Menageries.

Horn of Plenty is a great little helper as it's basically a non-terminal Workshop/Ironworks with much bigger potential. Again, if you diversify you can get Horns worth as much as a Province, bam!

You can do without Tournament, it's too much variance I think for your tastes (and for mine).

Hunting Party is better than Lab, there.

And Fairgrounds are great if you can make them worth as much as a Province or more. With Dark Ages and its many differently named cards that's not hard at all.
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bodybuilder

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #180 on: May 02, 2013, 04:17:24 am »
0

Familiar is hands down the best card with a potion in its cost, so if people aren't buying it it's just because your group doesn't realize how powerful cursing attacks are.  (Or you play a lot of 4+ player.)
I am actually starting to put my hands up and say vineyards has a spot in the discussion.

As a fun or not fun card? Or another part of the discussion?

I think as a "most powerful potion cost card"?

Oh. Perhaps, but I thought the point was to inform bodybuilder with which expansions he may like. He doesn't even like Chancellor because it's not that useful. I get the feeling cards like Familiar won't impress him.

Thread discussion tends to wander after a while.

Familiar can be swingy, and that can irk some people... but it happens.  bodybuilder didn't complain about Swindler or Torturer (and yeah Torturer can be swingy -- who can get the chain going first?) so Familiar might be OK for him.  I'm actually not sure what he's not a fan of, aside from specific cards.  Some are generally not bought (e.g. Chancellor), some are frustrating and often weak (Saboteur).  He also seemed not to want to play with extra components (like VP tokens).  I can't figure out a general thing he dislikes.

Best advice is just to try everything.  If there are cards that are disliked, remove them.  No big deal.  Honestly, everything is balanced and everything can shine in at least a few scenarios, or not be worth buying in a few scenarios.  Some just are usually almost always worthwhile or worthless.  But nothing is 100% always bought or always ignored, I think.  But if you dislike a card, there is no great reason why you can't leave it out.

you missed some step .. I am using add-ons and I like them,  I learned to use chancellor, and the other cards. the only one that I take off is saboteur, because with him the games are completely different.

my question was if cornucopia and seaside have cards that make the game frustrating (as saboteur).

I do not like alchemy,  and will not take it.
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DStu

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #181 on: May 02, 2013, 04:33:49 am »
0

Familiar is hands down the best card with a potion in its cost, so if people aren't buying it it's just because your group doesn't realize how powerful cursing attacks are.  (Or you play a lot of 4+ player.)
I am actually starting to put my hands up and say vineyards has a spot in the discussion.

As a fun or not fun card? Or another part of the discussion?

I think as a "most powerful potion cost card"?

Oh. Perhaps, but I thought the point was to inform bodybuilder with which expansions he may like. He doesn't even like Chancellor because it's not that useful. I get the feeling cards like Familiar won't impress him.

Thread discussion tends to wander after a while.

Familiar can be swingy, and that can irk some people... but it happens.  bodybuilder didn't complain about Swindler or Torturer (and yeah Torturer can be swingy -- who can get the chain going first?) so Familiar might be OK for him.  I'm actually not sure what he's not a fan of, aside from specific cards.  Some are generally not bought (e.g. Chancellor), some are frustrating and often weak (Saboteur).  He also seemed not to want to play with extra components (like VP tokens).  I can't figure out a general thing he dislikes.

Best advice is just to try everything.  If there are cards that are disliked, remove them.  No big deal.  Honestly, everything is balanced and everything can shine in at least a few scenarios, or not be worth buying in a few scenarios.  Some just are usually almost always worthwhile or worthless.  But nothing is 100% always bought or always ignored, I think.  But if you dislike a card, there is no great reason why you can't leave it out.

you missed some step .. I am using add-ons and I like them,  I learned to use chancellor, and the other cards. the only one that I take off is saboteur, because with him the games are completely different.

my question was if cornucopia and seaside have cards that make the game frustrating (as saboteur).

I do not like alchemy,  and will not take it.
The problem is that we don't know what you will find frustating, and what you have told so far does not really give us a good position for guessing.  Anyway, Seaside and what others may find frustating:
Sea Hag: Sea Hag is Curser (like Witch) that doesn't help your deck (like Saboteur) and is avaible the first turn (as it only costs $4) and curses very fast.  This leads to quite messy decks, because all these Curses and also Sea Hag will bring down your deck value.  It's probably the most extreme Curser in the game.
Pirate Ship: Pirate Ship destroys opponents Treasure. In 2p, it's a usually bad card that can help your opponent more than it hurts if they know what they are doing, but often leads to group-think where everybody in the group buys Pirate Ships, which leads to horrible decks where now one can afford anything as all the Treasure is destroyed.  And the worst is, as everybody bought Pirate Ships, a Pirate Ship player wins, leading to the impression the Pirate Ship is the best card of the world, so everyone will buy Pirate Ships in the future.
Ambassador:  Usually not considered a good card by new players, it actually is one.  Games with Ambassador (in 2p) often start with both players passing Estates and Coppers to each other for several turns. After this, often one player has a clean deck and the other one has a messed deck, such that the game is essentially decided, but might take some more time because it essentially just started, as all this ambassadoring took a long time but didn't do much.
Smugglers: Another weak card that can be group-thinked into a strong card.
Ghost Ship: Being under constant attack of Ghost Ships might also be not that much fun for some people.


Note that these are only the cards that for some reason some people find annoying, it doesn't imply that they are.  I myself actually wouldn't ban any card from Seaside, even the strong ones like Ambassador often allows alternative strategies countering them.
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serakfalcon

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #182 on: May 02, 2013, 04:55:57 am »
0

Quote
Ghost Ship: Being under constant attack of Ghost Ships might also be not that much fun for some people.
Reveal a beggar, discard the beggar for 2 silvers, put another card back on top of the deck, play library, profit hehehe
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Awaclus

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #183 on: May 02, 2013, 04:56:16 am »
0

Familiar isn't very luck based. Okay, so with Potion/Silver you'll get Familiar only about 70% of the time, of which some happens on turn 5. That's luck. But more often than not, there is a $3 or $2 on the board that actually makes it very likely to get a Familiar (Storeroom is probably the best, and then there's Fishing Village, Steward, Warehouse, Sage, Oasis, etc) or less likely for your opponent to get a Familiar (Oracle and Fortune Teller), and knowing which cards tweak the odds in your favor the most isn't luck, that's skill.

The topic kind of made progress while I was AFKing with the "post reply" tab open, but I guess I'll still post it.
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lespeutere

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #184 on: May 02, 2013, 05:01:16 am »
0

you missed some step .. I am using add-ons and I like them,  I learned to use chancellor, and the other cards. the only one that I take off is saboteur, because with him the games are completely different.

Let me tell you, most games with saboteur shouldn't be all that different. There are some (but not all, by far) games where it is really useful. But otherwise, it's ignorable very often.
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Davio

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #185 on: May 02, 2013, 05:05:30 am »
0

you missed some step .. I am using add-ons and I like them,  I learned to use chancellor, and the other cards. the only one that I take off is saboteur, because with him the games are completely different.

Let me tell you, most games with saboteur shouldn't be all that different. There are some (but not all, by far) games where it is really useful. But otherwise, it's ignorable very often.
That's true, enginey games in which you can play it over and over again are also often games in which you can buy/gain multiple cards per turn to make up for this loss.
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Qvist

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #186 on: May 02, 2013, 05:19:37 am »
0

But more often than not, there is a $3 or $2 on the board that actually makes it very likely to get a Familiar (Storeroom is probably the best, and then there's Fishing Village, Steward, Warehouse, Sage, Oasis, etc) or less likely for your opponent to get a Familiar (Oracle and Fortune Teller), and knowing which cards tweak the odds in your favor the most isn't luck, that's skill.

For completeness sake, I like to add Courtyard as it's probably the best one.

Polk5440

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #187 on: May 02, 2013, 08:11:31 am »
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you missed some step .. I am using add-ons and I like them,  I learned to use chancellor, and the other cards. the only one that I take off is saboteur, because with him the games are completely different.

Let me tell you, most games with saboteur shouldn't be all that different. There are some (but not all, by far) games where it is really useful. But otherwise, it's ignorable very often.

Unless there are three or more people playing. Then it is very hard to ignore if the other players pick it up.
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Watno

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #188 on: May 02, 2013, 08:12:50 am »
+1

Does Fishing village really help hitting $3p in t3/4?
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Awaclus

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #189 on: May 02, 2013, 08:56:25 am »
0

Does Fishing village really help hitting $3p in t3/4?
I believe it does, because it brings the average $ in four cards closer to four the turn you play it and simply increases the average $ in four cards by one the next turn, and you need only $3 in four cards with the Potion. It's not the best Potion opener on a Familiar board but it's better than a Silver.
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pinkymadigan

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #190 on: May 02, 2013, 09:40:13 am »
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you missed some step .. I am using add-ons and I like them,  I learned to use chancellor, and the other cards. the only one that I take off is saboteur, because with him the games are completely different.

Let me tell you, most games with saboteur shouldn't be all that different. There are some (but not all, by far) games where it is really useful. But otherwise, it's ignorable very often.

Unless there are three or more people playing. Then it is very hard to ignore if the other players pick it up.
I think that makes it more ignorable than ever. In 3+ player games, if they are sab'ing each other, they are doing the attacking for you. All you need to do is concentrate on your own game and hope the swinginess doesn't hurt too much. You may lose big engine parts, and not be able to make an engine, but if my two opponents are sab'ing, I can make a simple linear money deck with some straight forward big draws (or other interspersed key cards if no drawing is available) that will waste them. Unless of course one of them can make an engine that sabs every turn and then they dominate the other player's sab'ing. Then that's the reward of gambling on Saboteur I guess.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 09:41:20 am by pinkymadigan »
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #191 on: May 02, 2013, 10:08:18 am »
0

Familiar isn't very luck based. Okay, so with Potion/Silver you'll get Familiar only about 70% of the time, of which some happens on turn 5. That's luck. But more often than not, there is a $3 or $2 on the board that actually makes it very likely to get a Familiar (Storeroom is probably the best, and then there's Fishing Village, Steward, Warehouse, Sage, Oasis, etc) or less likely for your opponent to get a Familiar (Oracle and Fortune Teller), and knowing which cards tweak the odds in your favor the most isn't luck, that's skill.

The topic kind of made progress while I was AFKing with the "post reply" tab open, but I guess I'll still post it.
Remember, $3P is more expensive than $5 (it requires the same components as a $5 hand, AND your "$5" hand has to be the one with the Potion, not the one with the Silver). A gamebreaking card costing slightly more than $5 is indeed very luck based.

Better openings will increase your success rate, but don't change that it's an incredibly swingy card.
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bodybuilder

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #192 on: May 02, 2013, 10:47:21 am »
0

I tried seaside and cornucopia cards against AI, and I did not like, especially the duration of seaside cards.

so I decided to take hinterlands or dark ages. I think that these 2 games, have not cards also apply the next round.

between hinterlands and dark ages, what do you recommend and why?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 10:50:10 am by bodybuilder »
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pst

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #193 on: May 02, 2013, 11:04:03 am »
+4

Does Fishing village really help hitting $3p in t3/4?

Yes.

If you buy Potion/X with your opening 4/3 there are 12! = 479,001,600 ways to order your 12 cards after the shuffle. (Yes, there are lots of duplicates, but to avoid probability traps let's count them all anyway.) For how many of these can you buy a Familiar in turn 3 or 4?

SilverFishing Village
Turn 3156,643,200143,942,400
Turn 4156,643,200171,158,400
Turn 3+4313,286,400315,100,800

So the increased probability of buying it t4 makes up for the decreased probability for t3, and all in all you are almost 0.6% more likely to get it in t3/4 if you go for Fishing Village instead of Silver.

(Now I'm getting interested in comparing this with some other Xs, but don't have time right now.)
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Jimmmmm

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #194 on: May 02, 2013, 11:06:19 am »
0

I tried seaside and cornucopia cards against AI, and I did not like, especially the duration of seaside cards.

so I decided to take hinterlands or dark ages. I think that these 2 games, have not cards also apply the next round.

between hinterlands and dark ages, what do you recommend and why?

You're not going to get any useful information on what you'll like and what you won't like. You seem to have a distaste for a fairly random set of cards. Most people who play Dominion really like Duration cards. So my only suggestion to you is to keep trying the cards. If you don't like them at first, maybe you'll like them more as you play with them more, like you seem to have done with cards that give you VP tokens. If after you've played 10-20 games with Duration cards you still don't like them, then maybe they're not for you. But no one here could have told you that.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #195 on: May 02, 2013, 11:14:23 am »
0

Does Fishing village really help hitting $3p in t3/4?

Yes.

If you buy Potion/X with your opening 4/3 there are 12! = 479,001,600 ways to order your 12 cards after the shuffle. (Yes, there are lots of duplicates, but to avoid probability traps let's count them all anyway.) For how many of these can you buy a Familiar in turn 3 or 4?

SilverFishing Village
Turn 3156,643,200143,942,400
Turn 4156,643,200171,158,400
Turn 3+4313,286,400315,100,800

So the increased probability of buying it t4 makes up for the decreased probability for t3, and all in all you are almost 0.6% more likely to get it in t3/4 if you go for Fishing Village instead of Silver.

(Now I'm getting interested in comparing this with some other Xs, but don't have time right now.)

I'm not sure what else you could compare this with. A terminal Silver is going to be the same as a Silver. Lighthouse will be the same as Fishing Village. A Cantrip/Copper/Terminal Copper will be strictly worse. Maybe Wishing Well (along with the most sensible wish)? Secret Chamber? Pawn? Poor House? Actually, I think Poor House would be pretty good, since a hand with Poor House/Potion will guarantee 3P. Okay, so there are some suggestions, but I don't think there are terribly many other cards costing $3 or less which give you something other than $0, $1, $2 or $1+$1.
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Kuildeous

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #196 on: May 02, 2013, 11:16:10 am »
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If you dislike Sabotage and Seaside because they make Dominion too different, then avoid Dark Ages. Dark Ages has some cards that really twist the way we play Dominion. And if you don't like that, then skip Dark Ages.

Hinterlands is more like "pure" Dominion.

Personally, I love how the different cards change the game (I'm also a fan of Cosmic Encounter), but if you dislike what Seaside does to the game, you'll probably hate Dark Ages. This is all speculation, of course, since I don't know you.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #197 on: May 02, 2013, 11:17:09 am »
0

Hinterlands is more like "pure" Dominion.

Nah, it's got that crazy on-gain mechanic.
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Kuildeous

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #198 on: May 02, 2013, 11:45:42 am »
0

Hinterlands is more like "pure" Dominion.

Nah, it's got that crazy on-gain mechanic.

True, but so does Mint, so on-gain abilities aren't a problem for him.

I never thought of on-gain abilities as straying too far from the basic rules. It's a slight tweak.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #199 on: May 02, 2013, 11:54:37 am »
+1

Hinterlands is more like "pure" Dominion.

Nah, it's got that crazy on-gain mechanic.

True, but so does Mint, so on-gain abilities aren't a problem for him.

I never thought of on-gain abilities as straying too far from the basic rules. It's a slight tweak.

That was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I think the problem the OP is having is that he seems to have conflicting goals. He wants to check out the cards of the expansions, whose purpose is to add to the variety in Dominion by doing something different, but he doesn't like cards which are too different.
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