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[Beyond Awesome]

For Magic Online. If you buy the cards in real life, you don't also get the cards online. I don't know why people can't get this, but a digital product is not the same as a physical product. I don't see Barnes & Noble offering a free equivalant Nook download with every paper version of a book that I buy.

[Kirian]

Like I am totally an intellectual property friendly kinda guy, but I'm also a right-of-first sale kind of guy, and this violates right-of-first sale.

I don't see how.  Donald sold the rights to Dominion to RGG.  They got the rights to sell it first.  They contracted with Goko and allowed Goko to have second sale rights.

most movies these days (both dvd and bluray) come with some sort of digital download. likewise, each of my recent album purchases have come with a digital download as well.

i know that they have no obligation to do so, but it is becoming common practice these days for people to pair their product with an online counterpart.

I had not heard of this common practice.  Man, I wish book publishers felt that way!  That said... I can't think of a single game publisher who has done this. (Does Czech Games own boardgaming-online?  That might be an exception, but I don't know.)  Then again, book and game publishers don't have major problems with pirating.

Edit:  Also, jeez, when did I start defending Goko??  Seriously people, you're making strange things happen.

[^_^_^_^]

Looks like you started at this post. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6879.msg191192#msg191192

[serakfalcon]

I don't see how.  Donald sold the rights to Dominion to RGG.  They got the rights to sell it first.  They contracted with Goko and allowed Goko to have second sale rights.

I think you misunderstand, its the idea that, if I bought a product, I have the right to use it or dispose of it any way I please. This gets a little complicated with digital copies since it doesn't cost anything to duplicate them, but it costs time and energy to make the first one. This is the, "I already bought all the sets IRL why do I have to buy them all over again online?" argument.
It is true that a digital version of something is different than the physical one, in a much more pronounced way than say, music, but its also true that you can find many games online completely free so its a mixed bag at best.

If Goko has made any missteps, its with the premature release, a focus on the platform over the game itself, and prices that are on the steep side. I wonder what sort of marketing analysis they've done on the price?

But it looks like they probably will be profitable with what they're doing in the end, and that's their business, I mean, ultimately,
Sure, Goko can charge for Dominion. I can also not buy it. That's fine with me. I'm not yet convinced that Goko is worth my money, and thats where it stands. Its a bit sad, I have enjoyed learning new strategies on iso by playing better players, but I can always just be more aggressive to pull together a gaming group for dominion, that's all. 

[Powerman]

I understand not giving away the whole online product to people who own the real life product.  I do not understand not giving away ANYTHING of the online product to people who own the real life product (Yes, there's that code with Dark Ages, but from what I can tell, they aren't unique and anyone can enter them.)

People who buy Dominion in real life have already demonstrated when they like a product, they will buy it.  Why not give them the opportunity to like Goko and then have them pay money?  Part of this is the botched launch (Why am I going to pay money for a website that can go down at anytime?) but part of it is the feeling that I am double paying.  I think it is a huge mistake not to give say... 2 cards from each expansion that you can enter a valid UPC code from.  Or something small.  Or even, a small discount on buying the online version of the cards.  But... alas, it is not to be.  And alas, my money was not meant for Goko's pockets.

[Donald X.]

I understand not giving away the whole online product to people who own the real life product.  I do not understand not giving away ANYTHING of the online product to people who own the real life product (Yes, there's that code with Dark Ages, but from what I can tell, they aren't unique and anyone can enter them.)

The main set is free. Maybe you are so used to getting that for free that it feels like nothing to you. Man, it's Dominion, the main set in its entirety. It won some awards. If you feel like you deserve 10% of each set for free, just redistribute that all to the main set and there you go.

Maybe you're saying we shouldn't be giving Dominion for free to everyone, just to people who own it. What did the people who don't own it do to you, that's what I want to know.

[SirPeebles]

I bought Dark Ages on Goko.  I don't want to pay for it again IRL.  Someone should mail me some cards.

[Dsell]

For me, Goko is actually too much like RL Dominion. I like Dominion, it is my favorite game, and I like RL and online for different reasons. Goko's setup (lack of text box, lack of point counter, too slow/too fast animation, which all lead to a more difficult to track, less strategic game) feels more like RL than Isotropic and while that's great for some people, it eliminates the advantages of the Dominion variant I've come to love on Iso and makes online Dominion feel more redundant with RL Dominion.

That said, I expect to make the transition to Goko at some point after Iso's gone, because I really love Dominion. Dark Ages is my favorite set and I look forward to using the cards online!

[Awaclus]

I bought Dark Ages on Goko.  I don't want to pay for it again IRL.  Someone should mail me some cards.

You're allowed to make your own physical cards, though.

[Qvist]

Where's the "Both" option?

Currently I like to play isotropic when I want to play more competitively and on Goko just for fun.
But when there's a good matchmaking system on Goko I might totally switch to Goko.

[Powerman]

I understand not giving away the whole online product to people who own the real life product.  I do not understand not giving away ANYTHING of the online product to people who own the real life product (Yes, there's that code with Dark Ages, but from what I can tell, they aren't unique and anyone can enter them.)

The main set is free. Maybe you are so used to getting that for free that it feels like nothing to you. Man, it's Dominion, the main set in its entirety. It won some awards. If you feel like you deserve 10% of each set for free, just redistribute that all to the main set and there you go.

Maybe you're saying we shouldn't be giving Dominion for free to everyone, just to people who own it. What did the people who don't own it do to you, that's what I want to know.

Man, it's all about the framing.  I'm sure you know why stores advertise as 90% lean rather than 10% fat.  Why grocery stores make big displays.

Assuming this is the same product as IRL Dominion, it feels like double paying for the 5 expansions I own.  When I buy Madden for XBox, it comes with a code to play on XBox Live.  Could they charge less for the game and charge extra for the Live pass?  Sure, but they don't.  When I buy BlueRays, they all come with a "digital copy" to watch on iTunes. 

So am I entitled to getting more for free?  Absolutely not.  I've already given you my money, and you (and by you, I mean you / RGG / Goko / whoever) are free to do as you please.  If you establish "Base Dominion" as the baseline for all users, then I do think there should be something for people who have previously bought more of the same game in the past.  Maybe two trial cards isn't the right idea.  I would feel completely fine if it gave a one time discount on those sets if you can demonstrate you bought them in real life.  Can I afford to not get a 10% discount on online Dominion expansions?  Sure, I could.  But I can't afford to waste my money, and it feels like a waste.

[Hunting Party of One]

I've played thousands of games on iso and loved it!  Goko is not perfect yet, and I have to assume the little things it needs (search option, couple of bugs fixed, counting quits against people, etc.) will be taken care of soon.  That said, I have completely made the switch to Goko and I'm loving it!  The cards are beautiful, the game play doesn't take long to get used to, and it's flowing very nicely now.  Part of the fun is seeing the art work (one of the reasons I love playing IRL!) and the Goko site has come a long way in several months.  I'm happy I made the switch and am looking forward to the day Goko is a complete product. 

[pinkymadigan]

I bought Dark Ages on Goko.  I don't want to pay for it again IRL.  Someone should mail me some cards.

You're allowed to make your own physical cards, though.

I don't think you are really "allowed" to do that. But no one is going to get on your case about it, either.

By that logic, you're allowed to code your own electronic version of the game and not let anyone know you have it up and running on a private server for free for you and a couple of friends.

[Morgrim7]

I play on Iso mainly because of the levels, the amount of people, and the fact that Goko doesn't seem to want to let me log in.

[Kirian]

Looks like you started at this post. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6879.msg191192#msg191192

No, I've done it in other threads too.  It's crazy.  Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria, etc.

I don't see how.  Donald sold the rights to Dominion to RGG.  They got the rights to sell it first.  They contracted with Goko and allowed Goko to have second sale rights.

I think you misunderstand, its the idea that, if I bought a product, I have the right to use it or dispose of it any way I please. This gets a little complicated with digital copies since it doesn't cost anything to duplicate them, but it costs time and energy to make the first one. This is the, "I already bought all the sets IRL why do I have to buy them all over again online?" argument.

You certainly have the right to use, sell, or give away your physical copy of the game.  Digital products don't work like that.  And... I mean, seriously, this sounds like a Chewbacca defense here.

If Goko has made any missteps, its with the premature release, a focus on the platform over the game itself,

See, this I can definitely agree with.  They screwed up, big time.  They're still an inferior product to Iso but they are now an equal product to Goko before auto-match was put in.  Man, does anyone but me remember that?  (Rhetorical question, I know many of you do.)

and prices that are on the steep side. I wonder what sort of marketing analysis they've done on the price?

I bet that, for instance, they've analyzed the people who have already given them money.  But seriously... at $45 for all of Dominion online, I mean, hell, I pay $13 per month for World of Warcraft.  That's $45 for, what, seven games?  About $6.50 a game.  That's really not terrible for an online game; compare some app prices.  And none of us complained about spending $200+ for the physical cards. 

I'm not yet convinced that Goko is worth my money, and thats where it stands.

I can understand this position; I mean, I still technically hold this position.  But holding the position simply because one owns the physical sets and therefore ought to get the online sets for free is... ludicrous.

[Awaclus]

I don't think you are really "allowed" to do that. But no one is going to get on your case about it, either.

As long as you don't use the original visual arts and the exact wordings for rules text, it is legal.

By that logic, you're allowed to code your own electronic version of the game and not let anyone know you have it up and running on a private server for free for you and a couple of friends.

Yes, by this logic, you should be allowed to do that, and it should also be allowed to let people know about it as well.

[pinkymadigan]

I don't think you are really "allowed" to do that. But no one is going to get on your case about it, either.

As long as you don't use the original visual arts and the exact wordings for rules text, it is legal.

By that logic, you're allowed to code your own electronic version of the game and not let anyone know you have it up and running on a private server for free for you and a couple of friends.

Yes, by this logic, you should be allowed to do that, and it should also be allowed to let people know about it as well.

Your argument did not originally include the removal of art and exact wordings.

But yes, go ahead then; create it. And then let us all know about it, and do the coding and maintenance and all that for free. Sounds like a sweet deal for us.

[werothegreat]

I understand not giving away the whole online product to people who own the real life product.  I do not understand not giving away ANYTHING of the online product to people who own the real life product (Yes, there's that code with Dark Ages, but from what I can tell, they aren't unique and anyone can enter them.)

The main set is free. Maybe you are so used to getting that for free that it feels like nothing to you. Man, it's Dominion, the main set in its entirety. It won some awards. If you feel like you deserve 10% of each set for free, just redistribute that all to the main set and there you go.

Maybe you're saying we shouldn't be giving Dominion for free to everyone, just to people who own it. What did the people who don't own it do to you, that's what I want to know.

Man, it's all about the framing.  I'm sure you know why stores advertise as 90% lean rather than 10% fat.  Why grocery stores make big displays.

Assuming this is the same product as IRL Dominion, it feels like double paying for the 5 expansions I own.  When I buy Madden for XBox, it comes with a code to play on XBox Live.  Could they charge less for the game and charge extra for the Live pass?  Sure, but they don't.  When I buy BlueRays, they all come with a "digital copy" to watch on iTunes. 

So am I entitled to getting more for free?  Absolutely not.  I've already given you my money, and you (and by you, I mean you / RGG / Goko / whoever) are free to do as you please.  If you establish "Base Dominion" as the baseline for all users, then I do think there should be something for people who have previously bought more of the same game in the past.  Maybe two trial cards isn't the right idea.  I would feel completely fine if it gave a one time discount on those sets if you can demonstrate you bought them in real life.  Can I afford to not get a 10% discount on online Dominion expansions?  Sure, I could.  But I can't afford to waste my money, and it feels like a waste.

And, pray tell, how are you going to keep track of who's bought what set?  The only ones with codes are Dark Ages and the Base Cards.  Is Goko supposed to implement an honor system where people get free digital cards just because they say they've bought all the physical expansions?

[loppo]

I play on Iso mainly because of the levels, the amount of people, and the fact that Goko doesn't seem to want to let me log in.

did you try this solution?

https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/site_is_not_working_at_all_for_me

[popsofctown]

There's what's legal under the current laws of the countries, and what I think is in the good spirit of things.

There's three things going on:
1. The intellectual property, the game, its mechanics, how they work, what the cards do, all that jazz. 
2. The paper, cardboard, and other logistics involved in producing the board game.
3. The coding, maintenance, and upkeep of the digital version of the game.

There's legal things you can do that are not in good spirit.  You can make your own set of dominion cards with your own paper and ink, and play dominion with all the expansions that way, and Donald never gets a cent (if you change the wording and art slightly).  I don't think that is in the good spirit of things, Donald worked to design that so that he could get paid something when you benefit from the testing he had to do to figure out that your games were all going to degenerate if Jack could trash treasures.
There's illegal things that are in good spirit.  If you buy all the cards on Goko, then pay a friend 50$ to photocopy all his Dominion cards for you to play with, that is in good spirit because you paid for #1, but that is actually illegal.


You should have to pay for #1.  But you shouldn't have to pay for #1 twice. 
Buying the physical board games and making your own dominion server isn't allowed, though.  It is illegal, but in good spirit, because each player pays for #1 at least once.

The laws don't stand in the favor of the way I think things should work, but capitalism has this really neat feature where you can vote with your dollar, so that's what I'm doing. 


By the way, the guy arguing that a free version of dominion wouldn't happen if it was legal, I don't think you are right.  Personman was willing to donate a thousand dollars or something to keep isotropic up.  There's plenty of interest in the game and, hey, one person has already implemented it before free before, I really think a small group could probably do it too.
The main reason it won't be happening is because it would get shut down for illegality.

[pinkymadigan]

There's what's legal under the current laws of the countries, and what I think is in the good spirit of things.

There's three things going on:
1. The intellectual property, the game, its mechanics, how they work, what the cards do, all that jazz. 
2. The paper, cardboard, and other logistics involved in producing the board game.
3. The coding, maintenance, and upkeep of the digital version of the game.

There's legal things you can do that are not in good spirit.  You can make your own set of dominion cards with your own paper and ink, and play dominion with all the expansions that way, and Donald never gets a cent (if you change the wording and art slightly).  I don't think that is in the good spirit of things, Donald worked to design that so that he could get paid something when you benefit from the testing he had to do to figure out that your games were all going to degenerate if Jack could trash treasures.
There's illegal things that are in good spirit.  If you buy all the cards on Goko, then pay a friend 50$ to photocopy all his Dominion cards for you to play with, that is in good spirit because you paid for #1, but that is actually illegal.


You should have to pay for #1.  But you shouldn't have to pay for #1 twice. 
Buying the physical board games and making your own dominion server isn't allowed, though.  It is illegal, but in good spirit, because each player pays for #1 at least once.

The laws don't stand in the favor of the way I think things should work, but capitalism has this really neat feature where you can vote with your dollar, so that's what I'm doing. 


By the way, the guy arguing that a free version of dominion wouldn't happen if it was legal, I don't think you are right.  Personman was willing to donate a thousand dollars or something to keep isotropic up.  There's plenty of interest in the game and, hey, one person has already implemented it before free before, I really think a small group could probably do it too.
The main reason it won't be happening is because it would get shut down for illegality.

It's in good spirit to pay the company that licensed the design, but not the designer himself? You have an odd take on things that are in good spirit. I'm not telling you to buy Goko expansions, I haven't myself. But your living in a dream world if you think that digital access to something should be allowed just because you've already paid for physical access.
Sure, it might work for some company to do this occasionally, but that is something they do knowingly on their own as an added benefit for your dollar.

[popsofctown]

If you pay the company that liscensed a design your more or less paying the designer.  That's where the money trickles up to..

[SirPeebles]

There's illegal things that are in good spirit.  If you buy all the cards on Goko, then pay a friend 50$ to photocopy all his Dominion cards for you to play with, that is in good spirit because you paid for #1, but that is actually illegal.

I disagree that this is in good spirit.  Photocopying the cards is part of neither an implicit nor explicit contract when you pay for access to the online implementation.  It could have been, if Donald/RGG/Goko had made different arrangements in the past.  And prices would may well have been different, as well as how revenues are shared among the parties.  But that is not the arrangement that was made.  It's not as simple as saying that if pops bank account diminishes by a certain amount, then pops has the right to play Dominion as he chooses.  The efforts of many people went into producing the products, and these people have made agreements among themselves on how revenues will be shared based on how the intellectual property law works.

[pinkymadigan]

If you pay the company that liscensed a design your more or less paying the designer.  That's where the money trickles up to..

I don't claim to know the particulars of their agreement, but I sincerely doubt that it's any difference to Donald (in an immediate financial way) whether Goko fails or thrives. That deal was probably a straight up deal to use the Dominion IP for a one time payment of X to RGG (though I'm sure Donald would prefer his brand thrives in all formats).

Regardless, you live in a society with laws, it's not up to you to decide which laws have weight and which ones fall into some 'good spirit' category. If you want to break the law, go ahead and do what you like. Certain laws are incredibly difficult to enforce and not worth the effort or money, so you can get away with a lot of things that are definitely against the law (like carrying an ice cream cone in you pocket in Kentucky).

But don't kid yourself into thinking you've made a moral decision by paying for X and doing Y.

[ipofanes]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

But why does the BluRay have to be so expensive compared with VHS? It takes less resources to manufacture the BluRay: no moving parts etc.