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[Morgrim7]

I apologize if this has been done before. Just want to know where the majority go to play.

[werothegreat]

Why is the poll locked?

EDIT: Now there doesn't seem to be a poll.  At any rate, I now play exclusively on Goko.

[Morgrim7]

Why is the poll locked?

EDIT: Now there doesn't seem to be a poll.  At any rate, I now play exclusively on Goko.

Meh, issues ensued with the poll. Anyway it on now and I play on Iso.

[mameluke]

I like the DA cards too much to not play on Goko these days.

[Kirian]

I remain on Iso for now; when Goko has all the expansions up--which at this point is just Alchemy--I'll make the switch to Goko, as they will have satisfied my "good enough" criteria at that point.

[Morgrim7]

I think I'll stay on Isotropic until Guilds comes out.

OMG Guilds is coming out next month.

[Kirian]

I think I'll stay on Isotropic until Guilds comes out.

OMG Guilds is coming out next month.

Um... Guilds is slated for "Spring."  So, expect May, maybe June.  Probably June for Origins.

[zporiri]

i only play on iso. i own all the cards and dont feel like i should have to pay for the online version so i am boycotting goko. i know my impact will not even be noticed and most people probably dont agree with me, but that's how i feel.

[Morgrim7]

I'm  with ya all the way, zporiri.

[werothegreat]

i only play on iso. i own all the cards and dont feel like i should have to pay for the online version so i am boycotting goko. i know my impact will not even be noticed and most people probably dont agree with me, but that's how i feel.

You don't have to pay for it - just play off of someone else's cards.

As for the whole thing being free:
1) Goko needs to make money somehow
2) This is on a different platform - not everything in life is free

[Kirian]

[N]ot everything in life is free

[Morgrim7]

Not everything in life is free

Iso is.

[sudgy]

I'm  with ya all the way, zporiri.

Me too.

I know that they need it to cost money, so I just don't want to spend the money to get something I already bought.

[werothegreat]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

[Morgrim7]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

But is Goko necessarily better than RL like BluRay is better than VHS?

[Kirian]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

But is Goko necessarily better than RL like BluRay is better than VHS?

Only if you enjoy playing online without dealing with setup time.  Otherwise, arguably no.  But since this forum is mostly about playing Dominion online, I dare say that on average, for this group, yes, it's better than RL Dominion.

[Morgrim7]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

But is Goko necessarily better than RL like BluRay is better than VHS?

Only if you enjoy playing online without dealing with setup time.  Otherwise, arguably no.  But since this forum is mostly about playing Dominion online, I dare say that on average, for this group, yes, it's better than RL Dominion.

It is better for this community, yes, but for each seperate individual?

[Kirian]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

But is Goko necessarily better than RL like BluRay is better than VHS?

Only if you enjoy playing online without dealing with setup time.  Otherwise, arguably no.  But since this forum is mostly about playing Dominion online, I dare say that on average, for this group, yes, it's better than RL Dominion.

It is better for this community, yes, but for each seperate individual?

Like I said, then:  if you enjoy playing online, then Goko is better than RL.  If you don't, then it's not--but then neither is Iso.

[zporiri]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

im aware of the business model. i know they need to make money. i know they don't have to give it to me for free just because ive bought the actual cards. but ive spent over $200 on the game and i dont want to pay more to play online. it might be that a lot of people agree with me, and if that's the case, then it may not have been a good idea to put money into creating a paid version of online dominion. time will tell.

[zporiri]

You don't have to pay for it - just play off of someone else's cards.

i actually didnt know that, thanks for the info

[werothegreat]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

im aware of the business model. i know they need to make money. i know they don't have to give it to me for free just because ive bought the actual cards. but ive spent over $200 on the game and i dont want to pay more to play online. it might be that a lot of people agree with me, and if that's the case, then it may not have been a good idea to put money into creating a paid version of online dominion. time will tell.

Again, then play with people who've already bought all the expansions.

[popsofctown]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

It DOES mean that if I use the VHS that I legally obtained to create a Blu-ray disc, no one will come to my house and confiscate the Blu-ray disc because I did that.
Which is what, in essence, is happening when Isotropic gets shut down, even for people that have paper copies of the game. 

[werothegreat]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

It DOES mean that if I use the VHS that I legally obtained to create a Blu-ray disc, no one will come to my house and confiscate the Blu-ray disc because I did that.
Which is what, in essence, is happening when Isotropic gets shut down, even for people that have paper copies of the game.

Except the analogy doesn't quite work.  If you want to show a movie in a public setting, you have to get permission.  Anyone who's run a college club should know this.  If isotropic were just something a couple friends used, that would be fine.  But isotropic is more than just a couple friends - it's essentially the equivalent of taking your VHS-ripped BluRay and holding a showing of Gone with the Wind in a public park.  Without getting permission from whoever holds the rights to the movie right now.

[greatexpectations]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

i'm not sure this is the best analogy because of the large generation gaps between vhs and bluray. it is not as if this community is demanding that we get a free online version of monopoly just because we picked up a copy at a garage sale. dominion hasn't even been out for five years yet. most movies these days (both dvd and bluray) come with some sort of digital download. likewise, each of my recent album purchases have come with a digital download as well.

i know that they have no obligation to do so, but it is becoming common practice these days for people to pair their product with an online counterpart. and for a company with a PR history like goko has i am a little surprised that they haven't taken a step in this direction. you wouldn't have to make the online version totally free, there are compromises. reduced costs, a month of free play, something. i would rather have a jam packed lobby and build a buzz around the game than sit back and hold out for every penny possible.

[popsofctown]

Why can't we make isotropic a private thing you sign up for then, only if you have the game?  I don't think there's a product code or anyway we can prove we own the game, but I don't feel that's my fault.  If I go to isotropic and type in a kingdom using just Seaside, Hinterlands, and Base I'm not using anything I haven't paid for, but there's this guilty until proven innocent sort of thing going on where the whole thing is getting shut down (and any fanmade implementations like it in any form) because you -might- not have a paper copy of the game, so you need to pay again to make sure.

Like I am totally an intellectual property friendly kinda guy, but I'm also a right-of-first sale kind of guy, and this violates right-of-first sale.

And yeah, analogies tend to have problems, but, let's just abandon analogies altogether, because as I was taught in my rhetoric class, analogies are useful for teaching a concept to someone who is not at all skeptical but utterly useless in disagreements.

[Beyond Awesome]

For Magic Online. If you buy the cards in real life, you don't also get the cards online. I don't know why people can't get this, but a digital product is not the same as a physical product. I don't see Barnes & Noble offering a free equivalant Nook download with every paper version of a book that I buy.

[Kirian]

Like I am totally an intellectual property friendly kinda guy, but I'm also a right-of-first sale kind of guy, and this violates right-of-first sale.

I don't see how.  Donald sold the rights to Dominion to RGG.  They got the rights to sell it first.  They contracted with Goko and allowed Goko to have second sale rights.

most movies these days (both dvd and bluray) come with some sort of digital download. likewise, each of my recent album purchases have come with a digital download as well.

i know that they have no obligation to do so, but it is becoming common practice these days for people to pair their product with an online counterpart.

I had not heard of this common practice.  Man, I wish book publishers felt that way!  That said... I can't think of a single game publisher who has done this. (Does Czech Games own boardgaming-online?  That might be an exception, but I don't know.)  Then again, book and game publishers don't have major problems with pirating.

Edit:  Also, jeez, when did I start defending Goko??  Seriously people, you're making strange things happen.

[^_^_^_^]

Looks like you started at this post. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6879.msg191192#msg191192

[serakfalcon]

I don't see how.  Donald sold the rights to Dominion to RGG.  They got the rights to sell it first.  They contracted with Goko and allowed Goko to have second sale rights.

I think you misunderstand, its the idea that, if I bought a product, I have the right to use it or dispose of it any way I please. This gets a little complicated with digital copies since it doesn't cost anything to duplicate them, but it costs time and energy to make the first one. This is the, "I already bought all the sets IRL why do I have to buy them all over again online?" argument.
It is true that a digital version of something is different than the physical one, in a much more pronounced way than say, music, but its also true that you can find many games online completely free so its a mixed bag at best.

If Goko has made any missteps, its with the premature release, a focus on the platform over the game itself, and prices that are on the steep side. I wonder what sort of marketing analysis they've done on the price?

But it looks like they probably will be profitable with what they're doing in the end, and that's their business, I mean, ultimately,
Sure, Goko can charge for Dominion. I can also not buy it. That's fine with me. I'm not yet convinced that Goko is worth my money, and thats where it stands. Its a bit sad, I have enjoyed learning new strategies on iso by playing better players, but I can always just be more aggressive to pull together a gaming group for dominion, that's all. 

[Powerman]

I understand not giving away the whole online product to people who own the real life product.  I do not understand not giving away ANYTHING of the online product to people who own the real life product (Yes, there's that code with Dark Ages, but from what I can tell, they aren't unique and anyone can enter them.)

People who buy Dominion in real life have already demonstrated when they like a product, they will buy it.  Why not give them the opportunity to like Goko and then have them pay money?  Part of this is the botched launch (Why am I going to pay money for a website that can go down at anytime?) but part of it is the feeling that I am double paying.  I think it is a huge mistake not to give say... 2 cards from each expansion that you can enter a valid UPC code from.  Or something small.  Or even, a small discount on buying the online version of the cards.  But... alas, it is not to be.  And alas, my money was not meant for Goko's pockets.

[Donald X.]

I understand not giving away the whole online product to people who own the real life product.  I do not understand not giving away ANYTHING of the online product to people who own the real life product (Yes, there's that code with Dark Ages, but from what I can tell, they aren't unique and anyone can enter them.)

The main set is free. Maybe you are so used to getting that for free that it feels like nothing to you. Man, it's Dominion, the main set in its entirety. It won some awards. If you feel like you deserve 10% of each set for free, just redistribute that all to the main set and there you go.

Maybe you're saying we shouldn't be giving Dominion for free to everyone, just to people who own it. What did the people who don't own it do to you, that's what I want to know.

[SirPeebles]

I bought Dark Ages on Goko.  I don't want to pay for it again IRL.  Someone should mail me some cards.

[Dsell]

For me, Goko is actually too much like RL Dominion. I like Dominion, it is my favorite game, and I like RL and online for different reasons. Goko's setup (lack of text box, lack of point counter, too slow/too fast animation, which all lead to a more difficult to track, less strategic game) feels more like RL than Isotropic and while that's great for some people, it eliminates the advantages of the Dominion variant I've come to love on Iso and makes online Dominion feel more redundant with RL Dominion.

That said, I expect to make the transition to Goko at some point after Iso's gone, because I really love Dominion. Dark Ages is my favorite set and I look forward to using the cards online!

[Awaclus]

I bought Dark Ages on Goko.  I don't want to pay for it again IRL.  Someone should mail me some cards.

You're allowed to make your own physical cards, though.

[Qvist]

Where's the "Both" option?

Currently I like to play isotropic when I want to play more competitively and on Goko just for fun.
But when there's a good matchmaking system on Goko I might totally switch to Goko.

[Powerman]

I understand not giving away the whole online product to people who own the real life product.  I do not understand not giving away ANYTHING of the online product to people who own the real life product (Yes, there's that code with Dark Ages, but from what I can tell, they aren't unique and anyone can enter them.)

The main set is free. Maybe you are so used to getting that for free that it feels like nothing to you. Man, it's Dominion, the main set in its entirety. It won some awards. If you feel like you deserve 10% of each set for free, just redistribute that all to the main set and there you go.

Maybe you're saying we shouldn't be giving Dominion for free to everyone, just to people who own it. What did the people who don't own it do to you, that's what I want to know.

Man, it's all about the framing.  I'm sure you know why stores advertise as 90% lean rather than 10% fat.  Why grocery stores make big displays.

Assuming this is the same product as IRL Dominion, it feels like double paying for the 5 expansions I own.  When I buy Madden for XBox, it comes with a code to play on XBox Live.  Could they charge less for the game and charge extra for the Live pass?  Sure, but they don't.  When I buy BlueRays, they all come with a "digital copy" to watch on iTunes. 

So am I entitled to getting more for free?  Absolutely not.  I've already given you my money, and you (and by you, I mean you / RGG / Goko / whoever) are free to do as you please.  If you establish "Base Dominion" as the baseline for all users, then I do think there should be something for people who have previously bought more of the same game in the past.  Maybe two trial cards isn't the right idea.  I would feel completely fine if it gave a one time discount on those sets if you can demonstrate you bought them in real life.  Can I afford to not get a 10% discount on online Dominion expansions?  Sure, I could.  But I can't afford to waste my money, and it feels like a waste.

[Hunting Party of One]

I've played thousands of games on iso and loved it!  Goko is not perfect yet, and I have to assume the little things it needs (search option, couple of bugs fixed, counting quits against people, etc.) will be taken care of soon.  That said, I have completely made the switch to Goko and I'm loving it!  The cards are beautiful, the game play doesn't take long to get used to, and it's flowing very nicely now.  Part of the fun is seeing the art work (one of the reasons I love playing IRL!) and the Goko site has come a long way in several months.  I'm happy I made the switch and am looking forward to the day Goko is a complete product. 

[pinkymadigan]

I bought Dark Ages on Goko.  I don't want to pay for it again IRL.  Someone should mail me some cards.

You're allowed to make your own physical cards, though.

I don't think you are really "allowed" to do that. But no one is going to get on your case about it, either.

By that logic, you're allowed to code your own electronic version of the game and not let anyone know you have it up and running on a private server for free for you and a couple of friends.

[Morgrim7]

I play on Iso mainly because of the levels, the amount of people, and the fact that Goko doesn't seem to want to let me log in.

[Kirian]

Looks like you started at this post. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6879.msg191192#msg191192

No, I've done it in other threads too.  It's crazy.  Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria, etc.

I don't see how.  Donald sold the rights to Dominion to RGG.  They got the rights to sell it first.  They contracted with Goko and allowed Goko to have second sale rights.

I think you misunderstand, its the idea that, if I bought a product, I have the right to use it or dispose of it any way I please. This gets a little complicated with digital copies since it doesn't cost anything to duplicate them, but it costs time and energy to make the first one. This is the, "I already bought all the sets IRL why do I have to buy them all over again online?" argument.

You certainly have the right to use, sell, or give away your physical copy of the game.  Digital products don't work like that.  And... I mean, seriously, this sounds like a Chewbacca defense here.

If Goko has made any missteps, its with the premature release, a focus on the platform over the game itself,

See, this I can definitely agree with.  They screwed up, big time.  They're still an inferior product to Iso but they are now an equal product to Goko before auto-match was put in.  Man, does anyone but me remember that?  (Rhetorical question, I know many of you do.)

and prices that are on the steep side. I wonder what sort of marketing analysis they've done on the price?

I bet that, for instance, they've analyzed the people who have already given them money.  But seriously... at $45 for all of Dominion online, I mean, hell, I pay $13 per month for World of Warcraft.  That's $45 for, what, seven games?  About $6.50 a game.  That's really not terrible for an online game; compare some app prices.  And none of us complained about spending $200+ for the physical cards. 

I'm not yet convinced that Goko is worth my money, and thats where it stands.

I can understand this position; I mean, I still technically hold this position.  But holding the position simply because one owns the physical sets and therefore ought to get the online sets for free is... ludicrous.

[Awaclus]

I don't think you are really "allowed" to do that. But no one is going to get on your case about it, either.

As long as you don't use the original visual arts and the exact wordings for rules text, it is legal.

By that logic, you're allowed to code your own electronic version of the game and not let anyone know you have it up and running on a private server for free for you and a couple of friends.

Yes, by this logic, you should be allowed to do that, and it should also be allowed to let people know about it as well.

[pinkymadigan]

I don't think you are really "allowed" to do that. But no one is going to get on your case about it, either.

As long as you don't use the original visual arts and the exact wordings for rules text, it is legal.

By that logic, you're allowed to code your own electronic version of the game and not let anyone know you have it up and running on a private server for free for you and a couple of friends.

Yes, by this logic, you should be allowed to do that, and it should also be allowed to let people know about it as well.

Your argument did not originally include the removal of art and exact wordings.

But yes, go ahead then; create it. And then let us all know about it, and do the coding and maintenance and all that for free. Sounds like a sweet deal for us.

[werothegreat]

I understand not giving away the whole online product to people who own the real life product.  I do not understand not giving away ANYTHING of the online product to people who own the real life product (Yes, there's that code with Dark Ages, but from what I can tell, they aren't unique and anyone can enter them.)

The main set is free. Maybe you are so used to getting that for free that it feels like nothing to you. Man, it's Dominion, the main set in its entirety. It won some awards. If you feel like you deserve 10% of each set for free, just redistribute that all to the main set and there you go.

Maybe you're saying we shouldn't be giving Dominion for free to everyone, just to people who own it. What did the people who don't own it do to you, that's what I want to know.

Man, it's all about the framing.  I'm sure you know why stores advertise as 90% lean rather than 10% fat.  Why grocery stores make big displays.

Assuming this is the same product as IRL Dominion, it feels like double paying for the 5 expansions I own.  When I buy Madden for XBox, it comes with a code to play on XBox Live.  Could they charge less for the game and charge extra for the Live pass?  Sure, but they don't.  When I buy BlueRays, they all come with a "digital copy" to watch on iTunes. 

So am I entitled to getting more for free?  Absolutely not.  I've already given you my money, and you (and by you, I mean you / RGG / Goko / whoever) are free to do as you please.  If you establish "Base Dominion" as the baseline for all users, then I do think there should be something for people who have previously bought more of the same game in the past.  Maybe two trial cards isn't the right idea.  I would feel completely fine if it gave a one time discount on those sets if you can demonstrate you bought them in real life.  Can I afford to not get a 10% discount on online Dominion expansions?  Sure, I could.  But I can't afford to waste my money, and it feels like a waste.

And, pray tell, how are you going to keep track of who's bought what set?  The only ones with codes are Dark Ages and the Base Cards.  Is Goko supposed to implement an honor system where people get free digital cards just because they say they've bought all the physical expansions?

[loppo]

I play on Iso mainly because of the levels, the amount of people, and the fact that Goko doesn't seem to want to let me log in.

did you try this solution?

https://getsatisfaction.com/goko/topics/site_is_not_working_at_all_for_me

[popsofctown]

There's what's legal under the current laws of the countries, and what I think is in the good spirit of things.

There's three things going on:
1. The intellectual property, the game, its mechanics, how they work, what the cards do, all that jazz. 
2. The paper, cardboard, and other logistics involved in producing the board game.
3. The coding, maintenance, and upkeep of the digital version of the game.

There's legal things you can do that are not in good spirit.  You can make your own set of dominion cards with your own paper and ink, and play dominion with all the expansions that way, and Donald never gets a cent (if you change the wording and art slightly).  I don't think that is in the good spirit of things, Donald worked to design that so that he could get paid something when you benefit from the testing he had to do to figure out that your games were all going to degenerate if Jack could trash treasures.
There's illegal things that are in good spirit.  If you buy all the cards on Goko, then pay a friend 50$ to photocopy all his Dominion cards for you to play with, that is in good spirit because you paid for #1, but that is actually illegal.


You should have to pay for #1.  But you shouldn't have to pay for #1 twice. 
Buying the physical board games and making your own dominion server isn't allowed, though.  It is illegal, but in good spirit, because each player pays for #1 at least once.

The laws don't stand in the favor of the way I think things should work, but capitalism has this really neat feature where you can vote with your dollar, so that's what I'm doing. 


By the way, the guy arguing that a free version of dominion wouldn't happen if it was legal, I don't think you are right.  Personman was willing to donate a thousand dollars or something to keep isotropic up.  There's plenty of interest in the game and, hey, one person has already implemented it before free before, I really think a small group could probably do it too.
The main reason it won't be happening is because it would get shut down for illegality.

[pinkymadigan]

There's what's legal under the current laws of the countries, and what I think is in the good spirit of things.

There's three things going on:
1. The intellectual property, the game, its mechanics, how they work, what the cards do, all that jazz. 
2. The paper, cardboard, and other logistics involved in producing the board game.
3. The coding, maintenance, and upkeep of the digital version of the game.

There's legal things you can do that are not in good spirit.  You can make your own set of dominion cards with your own paper and ink, and play dominion with all the expansions that way, and Donald never gets a cent (if you change the wording and art slightly).  I don't think that is in the good spirit of things, Donald worked to design that so that he could get paid something when you benefit from the testing he had to do to figure out that your games were all going to degenerate if Jack could trash treasures.
There's illegal things that are in good spirit.  If you buy all the cards on Goko, then pay a friend 50$ to photocopy all his Dominion cards for you to play with, that is in good spirit because you paid for #1, but that is actually illegal.


You should have to pay for #1.  But you shouldn't have to pay for #1 twice. 
Buying the physical board games and making your own dominion server isn't allowed, though.  It is illegal, but in good spirit, because each player pays for #1 at least once.

The laws don't stand in the favor of the way I think things should work, but capitalism has this really neat feature where you can vote with your dollar, so that's what I'm doing. 


By the way, the guy arguing that a free version of dominion wouldn't happen if it was legal, I don't think you are right.  Personman was willing to donate a thousand dollars or something to keep isotropic up.  There's plenty of interest in the game and, hey, one person has already implemented it before free before, I really think a small group could probably do it too.
The main reason it won't be happening is because it would get shut down for illegality.

It's in good spirit to pay the company that licensed the design, but not the designer himself? You have an odd take on things that are in good spirit. I'm not telling you to buy Goko expansions, I haven't myself. But your living in a dream world if you think that digital access to something should be allowed just because you've already paid for physical access.
Sure, it might work for some company to do this occasionally, but that is something they do knowingly on their own as an added benefit for your dollar.

[popsofctown]

If you pay the company that liscensed a design your more or less paying the designer.  That's where the money trickles up to..

[SirPeebles]

There's illegal things that are in good spirit.  If you buy all the cards on Goko, then pay a friend 50$ to photocopy all his Dominion cards for you to play with, that is in good spirit because you paid for #1, but that is actually illegal.

I disagree that this is in good spirit.  Photocopying the cards is part of neither an implicit nor explicit contract when you pay for access to the online implementation.  It could have been, if Donald/RGG/Goko had made different arrangements in the past.  And prices would may well have been different, as well as how revenues are shared among the parties.  But that is not the arrangement that was made.  It's not as simple as saying that if pops bank account diminishes by a certain amount, then pops has the right to play Dominion as he chooses.  The efforts of many people went into producing the products, and these people have made agreements among themselves on how revenues will be shared based on how the intellectual property law works.

[pinkymadigan]

If you pay the company that liscensed a design your more or less paying the designer.  That's where the money trickles up to..

I don't claim to know the particulars of their agreement, but I sincerely doubt that it's any difference to Donald (in an immediate financial way) whether Goko fails or thrives. That deal was probably a straight up deal to use the Dominion IP for a one time payment of X to RGG (though I'm sure Donald would prefer his brand thrives in all formats).

Regardless, you live in a society with laws, it's not up to you to decide which laws have weight and which ones fall into some 'good spirit' category. If you want to break the law, go ahead and do what you like. Certain laws are incredibly difficult to enforce and not worth the effort or money, so you can get away with a lot of things that are definitely against the law (like carrying an ice cream cone in you pocket in Kentucky).

But don't kid yourself into thinking you've made a moral decision by paying for X and doing Y.

[ipofanes]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

But why does the BluRay have to be so expensive compared with VHS? It takes less resources to manufacture the BluRay: no moving parts etc.

[pinkymadigan]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

But why does the BluRay have to be so expensive compared with VHS? It takes less resources to manufacture the BluRay: no moving parts etc.

Are you serious?

For starters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

That's the price that people as a whole have deemed okay to pay. If you want them cheaper, start a large global movement where everyone stops buying BluRays until they are the price you want them at.

The downside is, if it is too cheap then they will just stop making them.

[DrFlux]

I play on both. I'm currently debating whether to pay the $45 for all sets.

For anyone who tried the beta and gave up, Goko is way better than it used to be. It doesn't crash, and it is quite fast. It has a log. Really I was quite pleased when I tried again.

The only huge issue for me is the lack of auto-matching, preferably by rank. It often takes too long to find a game, and I think its because of this lack of auto match. A related issue is just the player base and current ranking: I am currently level 45 and really appreciate the high level of play, thoughtful analysis, and courtesy among many of the better (35+) isotropic players. I don't have that yet in Goko, and that does affect my desire to play there regularly.

[Kuildeous]

Not everything in life is free

Iso is.

Just to point out, Iso is not free. It's free for one of us to log into and play a game, but that's because Doug paid that price for us all. He put in the time to program Isotropic. As we know, programmers are not cheap. Doug hosted the server. If you were to quantify everything Doug did, you would see a huge chunk of money donated to us for this hobby.

Isotropic was never free. Doug was just willing to pay the cost for us. And if I recall, he had to be metaphorically held down and forced to take money from people who wanted to donate to him to offset those costs.

[ipofanes]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

But why does the BluRay have to be so expensive compared with VHS? It takes less resources to manufacture the BluRay: no moving parts etc.

Are you serious?

For starters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Good point! Supply and demand only works where there is no competition among producers. In a competitive market, selling above production price wouldn't work for long.

That's the price that people as a whole have deemed okay to pay. If you want them cheaper, start a large global movement where everyone stops buying BluRays until they are the price you want them at.

The downside is, if it is too cheap then they will just stop making them.

I am already busy stopping buying Ishtar BluRays, so I am uncertain if I'd have time for that.

[Ozle]

Wait, so I can't just download Goko from Bittorrent like I do all my movies and comics??!

[GendoIkari]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

But why does the BluRay have to be so expensive compared with VHS? It takes less resources to manufacture the BluRay: no moving parts etc.

BluRay discs cost what they cost because people are willing to spend that much for them. If everyone decided today that they are unwilling to buy any BluRay movies unless they cost $5 or less, then before too long all BluRay movies would cost $5 or less.

The other answer is that when you buy a BluRay disc, your money goes to a lot more than just the manufacturing of that BluRay disc. You are also paying license for the right to watch the movie in HD, etc.

[pinkymadigan]

Good point! Supply and demand only works where there is no competition among producers. In a competitive market, selling above production price wouldn't work for long.

Can't tell if you are messing around or what here.

Supply and demand works with competitive markets, but it also works in an absence of direct competitors where a good is not required.

For instance, if Goko put their prices at $20 an expansion, a few people with lots of extra spending money would bite, but the majority would not. That creates a low demand situation, and the result is that not enough people would buy the expansions to cover Goko's operating costs, so they would lower their prices. The lower prices match consumer's expectations much more than previously, and the demand for an electronic Dominion implementation matches the price point enough to increase the amount of people willing to buy to a point where Goko can sustain itself.

Just because no one else has the license doesn't mean we are all forced to buy at a $20/expansion price point though. That's silly (or maybe it's some odd extension of communism where because Goko needs money we are forced to buy their service to help the economy or something).

If you were just messing around, man, good job, because you confused the pi55 outta me.

[ipofanes]

Good point! Supply and demand only works where there is no competition among producers. In a competitive market, selling above production price wouldn't work for long.

Can't tell if you are messing around or what here.

I wasn't referring to Goko but to the example you brought up. For Gone With the Wind BluRays, competitive markets only exist in countries low on anti-infringement enforcement.

Just because no one else has the license doesn't mean we are all forced to buy at a $20/expansion price point though.

Of course. "Force" would mean "artificially increase demand".

[pinkymadigan]

Good point! Supply and demand only works where there is no competition among producers. In a competitive market, selling above production price wouldn't work for long.

Can't tell if you are messing around or what here.

I wasn't referring to Goko but to the example you brought up. For Gone With the Wind BluRays, competitive markets only exist in countries low on anti-infringement enforcement.

Just because no one else has the license doesn't mean we are all forced to buy at a $20/expansion price point though.

Of course. "Force" would mean "artificially increase demand".

No, it's still a competitive market (and it's not my example).

Take the example to extremes:
You have the option of the classic: Gone With The Wind on BluRay for $1,000.00 or you have like goods: Casablanca on BluRay for $10.00.

I guarantee that the price drops on Gone with the Wind so quickly to a reasonable market price. Even if like goods were not available and price collusion happens, it's a luxury good, and not buying BluRays (most people would not buy $1000.00 BluRays) will force the price to become an acceptable price point or force a new entrepreneurship to occur, either resulting in a new format, or new companies producing like goods for cheaper, both which result in the same thing; a good, comparable to the previous, available at a price point the market deems acceptable.

[greatexpectations]

with all of the talk of pricing and supply/demand, i think it is worth mentioning that goko has already dropped their prices from their starting price point. so to some extent, the complaints about prices, boycotts, and/or low traffic volume to their site definitely has and will likely continue to contribute to their pricing decisions.

[pinkymadigan]

with all of the talk of pricing and supply/demand, i think it is worth mentioning that goko has already dropped their prices from their starting price point. so to some extent, the complaints about prices, boycotts, and/or low traffic volume to their site definitely has and will likely continue to contribute to their pricing decisions.

Exactly. Conversely, if the site had been a massive success day one, we would still probably be paying those prices, unless they saw a drop in revenue and wanted to grow their consumer base.

EDIT: Is this not a concept that is taught in middle school anymore? I run into this a lot these days.

[ipofanes]

(and it's not my example).

Oops, sorry. That's what you get by not scrolling up.

[pinkymadigan]

(and it's not my example).

Oops, sorry. That's what you get by not scrolling up.

No worries.

[ipofanes]

with all of the talk of pricing and supply/demand, i think it is worth mentioning that goko has already dropped their prices from their starting price point. so to some extent, the complaints about prices, boycotts, and/or low traffic volume to their site definitely has and will likely continue to contribute to their pricing decisions.

Exactly. Conversely, if the site had been a massive success day one, we would still probably be paying those prices, unless they saw a drop in revenue and wanted to grow their consumer base.

There is also the network effect: No one uses Goko if no one uses it. That's what Minecraft did right: More than competitive prices for early adopters.

[popsofctown]

If you pay the company that liscensed a design your more or less paying the designer.  That's where the money trickles up to..

I don't claim to know the particulars of their agreement, but I sincerely doubt that it's any difference to Donald (in an immediate financial way) whether Goko fails or thrives. That deal was probably a straight up deal to use the Dominion IP for a one time payment of X to RGG (though I'm sure Donald would prefer his brand thrives in all formats).

Regardless, you live in a society with laws, it's not up to you to decide which laws have weight and which ones fall into some 'good spirit' category. If you want to break the law, go ahead and do what you like. Certain laws are incredibly difficult to enforce and not worth the effort or money, so you can get away with a lot of things that are definitely against the law (like carrying an ice cream cone in you pocket in Kentucky).

But don't kid yourself into thinking you've made a moral decision by paying for X and doing Y.

I don't intend to break any law.  I'm going to abstain from funding Goko and stick with games that have payment system I perceive as fair.  Hopefully, ideally, there are enough other people that think in a similar manner as I do, and lawmaking won't really matter, companies will start charging for intellectual property exactly one time.  That's part of how capitalism works. 

EDIT: Not that following the law would give any guarantee that I'm not being an asshole.  I could legally photoshop a knockoff dominion, heck, with better art, and I would still be a jerk for letting neither Donald nor RGG get any money from it.

[Powerman]

And, pray tell, how are you going to keep track of who's bought what set?  The only ones with codes are Dark Ages and the Base Cards.  Is Goko supposed to implement an honor system where people get free digital cards just because they say they've bought all the physical expansions?

Don't all sold products come with some form of a unique UPC code?

[Drab Emordnilap]

And, pray tell, how are you going to keep track of who's bought what set?  The only ones with codes are Dark Ages and the Base Cards.  Is Goko supposed to implement an honor system where people get free digital cards just because they say they've bought all the physical expansions?

Don't all sold products come with some form of a unique UPC code?

UPCs aren't unique; every copy of Intrigue (in the Unites States) has the same UPC on it.

[shMerker]

People, this is the same discussion as that other one and that other one. Someone try to convince me to switch to Goko. I'm still playing Iso largely because it's comfortable.

[Beyond Awesome]

To get back to why Blu Rays cost what they cost, it just isn't the cost to make a Blu Ray, but Sony and its partners own the license on Blu Rays. So, everytime someone makes a Blu Ray, Sony charges a fee for allowing them to use that technology.

[Beyond Awesome]

People, this is the same discussion as that other one and that other one. Someone try to convince me to switch to Goko. I'm still playing Iso largely because it's comfortable.

Sure. iso will go down at some point. Maybe in the next couple of months once Goko claims that it is out of beta. Then, you either don't play online or switch to Goko.

[shMerker]

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

[pinkymadigan]

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

[Donald X.]

Assuming this is the same product as IRL Dominion, it feels like double paying for the 5 expansions I own.  When I buy Madden for XBox, it comes with a code to play on XBox Live.  Could they charge less for the game and charge extra for the Live pass?  Sure, but they don't.  When I buy BlueRays, they all come with a "digital copy" to watch on iTunes. 

It's easy to photocopy a page, to take an .mp3 and convert it to a .wav, and so on. But work goes into an online Dominion implementation. It's not a photocopy.

[Donald X.]

There's illegal things that are in good spirit.  If you buy all the cards on Goko, then pay a friend 50$ to photocopy all his Dominion cards for you to play with, that is in good spirit because you paid for #1, but that is actually illegal.

For sure the online version would have to cost the same as the cardboard version if it was costing us cardboard sales. This is in fact the logic used by Wizards to make their online version of Magic cost exactly the same as their cardboard version.

You should have to pay for #1.  But you shouldn't have to pay for #1 twice. 

No-one is paying for anything twice. I don't even agree with the first part, which is to say, surely there is a better system than the current one for letting people make stuff up for a living.

The laws don't stand in the favor of the way I think things should work, but capitalism has this really neat feature where you can vote with your dollar, so that's what I'm doing. 

Also you are posting about it on the internet. But who gets paid for this free entertainment? I ask you.

[popsofctown]

Ok, the photocopying example was not a good idea, because the prices aren't the same.

If you bought the game, then paid 50$ for a game that was the same, but with half the arts redone, and the others original, that would be illegal, but would be an example of something that I don't think has wronged the creators

[shMerker]

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

A simple no would suffice. Actually just not saying anything would since it's not like I asked you personally, but thanks for weighing in anyway. Do you play on Iso or Goko? This is relevant to me now.

[cluckyb]

My only real qualm about Goko is that it is an online service. There is no guarantee they'll still be up and running six months from now, especially when you consider the struggles they have had so far. And if that happens, the $50 is then lost. Sure something can happen to all the cardboard I buy and then it will be lost, but if something does it'll have been my fault. Are there any plans to release a desktop client with support for private servers so that even if Goko shuts down people will be able to continue to play on it?

[enfynet]

So, I had this great idea to start charging my friends $1 each time they wanted to use a new kingdom card in the set of ten. I give them the first game for free and start charging from there. It didn't take very long before they decided to just buy a copy for themselves.

This post was completely hypothetical.

I am personally torn as to whether I want to pay for Goko cards or not. I prefer playing real cards with real people. At the same time, I prefer being home alone where it's quiet. (And Goko still freezes on me a LOT more than I'm comfortable with, so it's just Base games for now.)

[pinkymadigan]

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

A simple no would suffice. Actually just not saying anything would since it's not like I asked you personally, but thanks for weighing in anyway. Do you play on Iso or Goko? This is relevant to me now.

It's more than a simple no, it's advice. Check them both out, they are both free. How difficult is it to make a simple decision like this for yourself?

OMG! I can't decide whether I want Coke or Sprite someone convince me!

[greatexpectations]

this has to be in the top 5 of best f.DS thread derails.

[theory]

Admin-sniped, greatexpectations!  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6903.0

[Kirian]

As a math educator, I'm a bit skeptical of the pedestal on which calculus is placed in secondary education.  Proability and statistics is considerably more practical and useful, as is linear algebra.  Calculus is great, don't get me wrong.  Absolutely vital if you are going to be further studying physical science or engineering.  But everyone should be familiar with a decent amount of probability and statistics.

Absolutely agreed.  Basic stats and probability are incredibly useful to the general populace, and not taught to the depth they should be.

As for further discussion on whether there is more to know about math beyond the four arithmetic operations, I'll have to get back to you.  I'm currently attending at a math conference at UC Berkeley and need to get going or else I'll miss the first talk.  I'll ask them about the question.  Although as most of us work on rings, I'm not convinced they'll consider even the fourth operation of division to be of much use 

Yeah, yeah, all right, I've oversimplified.

[pinkymadigan]

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

A simple no would suffice. Actually just not saying anything would since it's not like I asked you personally, but thanks for weighing in anyway. Do you play on Iso or Goko? This is relevant to me now.

My reply ended up in the other topic.

Also, I play Goko, but I don't see how it's relevant - I only play in the private beta and only against bots.

[SirPeebles]

My only real qualm about Goko is that it is an online service. There is no guarantee they'll still be up and running six months from now, especially when you consider the struggles they have had so far. And if that happens, the $50 is then lost. Sure something can happen to all the cardboard I buy and then it will be lost, but if something does it'll have been my fault. Are there any plans to release a desktop client with support for private servers so that even if Goko shuts down people will be able to continue to play on it?

Then you got six months of entertainment for $50?

[Watno]

My only real qualm about Goko is that it is an online service. There is no guarantee they'll still be up and running six months from now, especially when you consider the struggles they have had so far. And if that happens, the $50 is then lost. Sure something can happen to all the cardboard I buy and then it will be lost, but if something does it'll have been my fault. Are there any plans to release a desktop client with support for private servers so that even if Goko shuts down people will be able to continue to play on it?

I was planning to buy the cards on goko soon, but this is what me decide against it for now. And Goko going down in the next couple of months isn't what i would call far-fetched. They haven't updated in like a month, representatives have left the company, and I don't think their business is going well.

[Ozle]

Haha, are we STILL having this discussion?!

Goko charges, if you don't want to pay for an online version of Dominion, nobody will force you to play it.
Iso is still up, when it goes down you have a choice to make.

Weigh up whether continuing to play Dominion online is worth the money and stump up, or don't.

There's no question of 'rights' or legality here at all, Goko CAN charge you for playing on Goko, and they ARE charging you. If you don't like it, don't play it.

This conversation is about as relevant as the time I wrote that Manatee joke for Family Guy...

[theory]

My reply ended up in the other topic.

Oops, brought it back.

[Piemaster]

I've tried to give Goko a fair shake, but I keep finding myself going back to Iso.  The problem is, once you've got over the fancy graphics and official artwork, I haven't found much I really prefer about Goko.  The only thing is Dark Ages really.  On Iso I can get a game 24 hours a day, usually within 30 seconds, with all the sets except 1.  On Goko, unless I'm prepared to stump up the cash (which maybe I will one day, but not yet) I have to either play with base only (which is super-boring once you're used to more) or sit there with baited breath waiting for a game to open with someone who has more sets and then pray I manage to click the seat before somebody else does.  The interface is fine on Goko, but it is on Iso too.  Maybe when Guilds comes out on Goko, that will be the incentive I need to get into it and, maybe I guess, spend money on it.  But right now I'm really not feeling it.

[Jacob marley]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

im aware of the business model. i know they need to make money. i know they don't have to give it to me for free just because ive bought the actual cards. but ive spent over $200 on the game and i dont want to pay more to play online. it might be that a lot of people agree with me, and if that's the case, then it may not have been a good idea to put money into creating a paid version of online dominion. time will tell.

Again, then play with people who've already bought all the expansions.

Unfortunately, this answer, while it is valid (and is the approach I use), is not a total solution.  Speaking from experience, it is often difficult for me to find games to join, especially on the pro leaderboard, and when I do, there is no way of telling what cards will be available.  I often wait a long time only to end up in a game of base, in which case I could have just started my own game and saved myself the wait.

Having said that, I'm not against buying Goko cards, I just don't have the budget for it.  In fact, I'm rather tired of people complaining.  RGG didn't let you have Iso for free all this time, and they, and Goko, have every right to monitize the on-line version seperately from the physical game. 

I also don't find the VHS/blu-ray analogy helpful.  Instead I think of Axis and Allies.  Even though I had the physical game, I still had to buy the computer game version.  I feel that the fact that a free online version has been available skews the debate.

[ipofanes]

I don't think anyone is disputing the right to sell electronic specimen of playing cards.

But I rather play Dominion within the family (which I do a lot) and would pay for a different experience online, like Innovation, which I don't have a physical copy of.

Also, boardgaming-online.com is a site I donate once in a while to, for their excellent implementation of Through the Ages.

[serakfalcon]

I don't see how.  Donald sold the rights to Dominion to RGG.  They got the rights to sell it first.  They contracted with Goko and allowed Goko to have second sale rights.

I think you misunderstand, its the idea that, if I bought a product, I have the right to use it or dispose of it any way I please. This gets a little complicated with digital copies since it doesn't cost anything to duplicate them, but it costs time and energy to make the first one. This is the, "I already bought all the sets IRL why do I have to buy them all over again online?" argument.

You certainly have the right to use, sell, or give away your physical copy of the game.  Digital products don't work like that.  And... I mean, seriously, this sounds like a Chewbacca defense here.

I'm not sure what I think. I'm just saying, that is a viewpoint that has a certain amount of merit and that other people are clearly expressing, I was summing it up. 

Sure, there is extra work involved in creating an online version, I agree that that should be compensated. However, there is a huge problem with pricing based off of the supplier's thinking, and basing the price off of the customers thinking, basically, eventually, the customers thinking will win. I don't know why it takes companies so long to learn this. Sure, they might theoretically be losing physical sales with an online verson, though I severely doubt it, but from the eyes of a consumer, If I'm paying for an online version, there's no re-sell value and there's no guarantee that the site will still be up in 5-6 years, whereas I'll still have my box set no matter what. So for sure online versions need to be cheaper than the box sets. And, how cheaper depends on the customer, and how much of a price cut the company is willing to settle for.
I own a kindle but I refuse to pay more than $10 for an e-book. for $10 I could get a used copy of most books, so I'd rather not buy. But I'm on the cheap end of the spectrum. The only thing about supply and demand is, there is more people like me than there is people willing to pay $50 for an e-book, and since running a server is not that expensive over all, and the development is mostly fixed cost, on the internet, quantity matters a lot...
Either way, I suspect that a very large number of companies, especially in older industries, are not really thinking about how consumers see digital copies, this makes all the analogies hard to compare since the prices are all over the map.

Minecraft is actually a great example of someone getting the internet right: By making it reasonably priced, even cheap for early adopters, they got a massive amount of purchases (its now in the top 10 all time best sellers), also, they made it accessible to normal users by keeping it simple, while allowing power users to do their thing, and, by adding an online verification step and updating often, they make it difficult to pirate. All that to say, things grow faster and are better when IP is protected, you keep your power users happy (they are your biggest advocates) but keep it accessible so you can have a bigger consumer base. I'm not convinced Goko has done that as of yet.

[Donald X.]

So for sure online versions need to be cheaper than the box sets. And, how cheaper depends on the customer, and how much of a price cut the company is willing to settle for.

Let's just repeat this for the one person reading this who doesn't know this. Magic: The Gathering costs exactly as much for online packs as for real packs. They felt like they had to do that to not lose money on the online version, and so that's what they did. When this was announced, there were sure people who said "lol no-one will pay that much for imaginary cards, this is never getting off the ground." It has been many years and Wizards has been raking in cash from online Magic.

Also, again for the one person reading this who doesn't know this, companies these days do not sell you software, they sell you a license to use the software. This dodges the issue of you being able to make a copy of this thing you bought. Contract law is really messed up, but that's how things work these days, that is what really goes down.

[ipofanes]

So for sure online versions need to be cheaper than the box sets. And, how cheaper depends on the customer, and how much of a price cut the company is willing to settle for.

Let's just repeat this for the one person reading this who doesn't know this. Magic: The Gathering costs exactly as much for online packs as for real packs. They felt like they had to do that to not lose money on the online version, and so that's what they did. When this was announced, there were sure people who said "lol no-one will pay that much for imaginary cards, this is never getting off the ground." It has been many years and Wizards has been raking in cash from online Magic.

I would say by keeping the online and physical version in the hands of the same company, whose product line had proven to be maintained, survived the Pokémon competition, to have withstood the lure of power creep, they were in a different position to address the concerns issued by Watno and serakfalcon. Dominion the card game is excellent as a product and will, like, say, Carcassonne, be around for many years, but an online version by Goko would have to stand the test of time. (OTOH, my unsleeved cards might have a shorter life expectancy than an online version.)

Also, I have never played M:tG online but I had found that deck construction grew more and more unwieldy the more physical cards I possessed, and I would imagine that an online version takes care of that brilliantly. Isotropic always reminds me to topdeck my Treasury, which is nice, but nowhere near the added convenience I'd expect to have with online deck construction.
 
   

[serakfalcon]

Let's just repeat this for the one person reading this who doesn't know this. Magic: The Gathering costs exactly as much for online packs as for real packs. They felt like they had to do that to not lose money on the online version, and so that's what they did. When this was announced, there were sure people who said "lol no-one will pay that much for imaginary cards, this is never getting off the ground." It has been many years and Wizards has been raking in cash from online Magic.

With a player base as wide and fanatic about the game as Magic has, its not hard to drum up enough people to pay that money. The fact is, they probably would be making even more money if they had a lower price and made more sales. Its hard because you have to test those things out and know your market fairly well. But, with Magic, everyone is basically encouraged to buy and own their own sets. So basically, someone who is buying the game online may choose to no longer play the game in person in favour of the online version. (in fact, Magic is forcing that choice by making the online version so expensive, were it cheaper people would probably do a bit of both, as most people tend to get digital copies of what they already own, rather than exclusively get one or the other). With Dominion, you only need one full set for an entire gaming group, say 4-5 people. However, all of them will need to pay to play online. So your potential online player base is larger.

[Donald X.]

With Dominion, you only need one full set for an entire gaming group, say 4-5 people. However, all of them will need to pay to play online.

No. One player hosts the online game and that player's cards are used. If you and your four friends like to play Dominion together online, one of you can buy the cards and host the game and all of you can play with everything, without the other four buying anything.

[serakfalcon]

No. One player hosts the online game and that player's cards are used. If you and your four friends like to play Dominion together online, one of you can buy the cards and host the game and all of you can play with everything, without the other four buying anything.

That's a nice thought, but I'm fairly certain I couldn't convince my friends to do that. We'd rather be doing something together, then on computer screens just playing the game. Our interaction is more important, the game is just a means to do that. If I'm playing online its for the game only, because I happen to have some free time. As I've said, its probably worth a market survey to look at this with concrete statistics instead of just "well, I look at it this way and you look at it that way"

As another counterpoint, I've introduced way more people to Dominion than are in the regular group that I play with, and I continue to do so. So say, probably  ~20 people have been introduced to it. Some have gone out and bought it, most haven't. Some of those might be interested in playing the online version, especially if they've moved and don't have a regular gaming group anymore.

[Awaclus]

By the way, I would definitely buy all the sets on Goko right now if they came with the smell of new cards. I don't remember what this was related to, but I'm sure it was related to something as it came into my mind when I was reading some post.

[shMerker]

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

A simple no would suffice. Actually just not saying anything would since it's not like I asked you personally, but thanks for weighing in anyway. Do you play on Iso or Goko? This is relevant to me now.

It's more than a simple no, it's advice. Check them both out, they are both free. How difficult is it to make a simple decision like this for yourself?

OMG! I can't decide whether I want Coke or Sprite someone convince me!

How difficult is it to just say "well if you switch then you'll get X, Y, or Z"? Apparently really hard I guess. When I tried using Goko my browser kind of exploded on me. Do I have a reason to invest more time in figuring this out? I just figured I could ask people who already know the answer. Keep mocking me though. It's probably the best use of your time.

I'm just glad we're not doing the usual goko discussion.

[Polk5440]

This week it's been both Iso and (free) Goko....

And Goko is getting dangerously close to crossing the "worth the money" threshold for me. Games don't freeze so often (due to a recent update building in some kind of invisible auto-reconnect feature??); animations, memory usage, and UI have improved. It looks nice (authentic card art is a big plus, though the avatars are still a minus). I like the deck builder tool a lot, being able to play against (pretty good) bots is a nice value-add, and the pace of play does not bother me at all.

I enjoy the Dark Ages cards. However, the difference in cards available seems like an artificial attempt to make Iso sticktly worse on one important dimension, which irks me, but shutting it down completely would be an admission that Goko can't compete at all, so the fact that Iso is still up is a plus for Goko, too.

I don't particularly care for adventures that much. Logs still are too hard to read and aren't tracked by CouncilRoom, and when games do freeze, I cannot refresh and reconnect like I can on Iso. This has become the biggest negative for me and the remaining reason why I have not given up Iso, yet. It's super frustrating to have to quit a game (that I am winning). Maybe the reason I have more disconnect/freezing issues than most people is because of the speed/quality of my internet connection, but hey, Iso and other online games work great, and I am not willing to pay a lot more a month for better internet connection just to play Dominion.

[dghunter79]

I play on Goko without paying.  I just like Dark Ages too much to go back.  Ambassadoring Rats?  Ha ha, what a crazy ambassador, what's that guy thinking?

There's a lot that's better about isotropic.  Isotropic has a simpler interface, a more accessible ranking system, and more, and better, players.  It turned out to be a pretty negligible difference though, to me.  Goko is still Dominon at the click of a button, except it has all the cards.

Plus Goko lets you pretend you're a knight!  I can't do that unless someone shows me a picture of a knight and tells me that it's a picture of me.

[pinkymadigan]

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

A simple no would suffice. Actually just not saying anything would since it's not like I asked you personally, but thanks for weighing in anyway. Do you play on Iso or Goko? This is relevant to me now.

It's more than a simple no, it's advice. Check them both out, they are both free. How difficult is it to make a simple decision like this for yourself?

OMG! I can't decide whether I want Coke or Sprite someone convince me!

How difficult is it to just say "well if you switch then you'll get X, Y, or Z"? Apparently really hard I guess. When I tried using Goko my browser kind of exploded on me. Do I have a reason to invest more time in figuring this out? I just figured I could ask people who already know the answer. Keep mocking me though. It's probably the best use of your time.

I'm just glad we're not doing the usual goko discussion.

If your browser exploded, then there's your reason to not switch. Problem solved. Now you'll just have to stop playing when Iso closes.

[Warrior]

But you didn't already buy it.  Just because you already bought Gone with the Wind on VHS doesn't mean they'll send you the BluRay for free.  There's nothing wrong with watching it on VHS, but if you want to watch the BluRay, you do have to pay for it again.

im aware of the business model. i know they need to make money. i know they don't have to give it to me for free just because ive bought the actual cards. but ive spent over $200 on the game and i dont want to pay more to play online. it might be that a lot of people agree with me, and if that's the case, then it may not have been a good idea to put money into creating a paid version of online dominion. time will tell.

Again, then play with people who've already bought all the expansions.

Does this really work? I mean, if I haven't bought all the expansions but play with someone who has, I will be able to play the expansions they own but I don't?

[ftl]

Yes. The expansions used are those which are owned by the person who creates the game.

[Warrior]

Yes. The expansions used are those which are owned by the person who creates the game.

Got it! So anyone with expansions who wants to play me on goko, just send me a message here!!

Warrior

[shMerker]

That's not a convincing argument for action now, since Iso remains up for the time being. In fact it's not much of an argument for action when Iso does eventually go down since your call to action is essentially "play on Goko or don't". I said CONVINCE me.

Convince yourself? I personally don't give two figs where you (or anyone, for that matter) plays.

A simple no would suffice. Actually just not saying anything would since it's not like I asked you personally, but thanks for weighing in anyway. Do you play on Iso or Goko? This is relevant to me now.

It's more than a simple no, it's advice. Check them both out, they are both free. How difficult is it to make a simple decision like this for yourself?

OMG! I can't decide whether I want Coke or Sprite someone convince me!

How difficult is it to just say "well if you switch then you'll get X, Y, or Z"? Apparently really hard I guess. When I tried using Goko my browser kind of exploded on me. Do I have a reason to invest more time in figuring this out? I just figured I could ask people who already know the answer. Keep mocking me though. It's probably the best use of your time.

I'm just glad we're not doing the usual goko discussion.

If your browser exploded, then there's your reason to not switch. Problem solved. Now you'll just have to stop playing when Iso closes.

You are investing a lot of time in this discussion for someone who "doesn't care two figs". I guess figs are a lot more valuable wherever you are.

Having it not work on the first try is a pretty big drawback. Big enough to keep me from getting over the "just try it" hump that would otherwise be non-existent. That's why I got on here and was like "hey just wondering am I missing out on anything awesome?" because I thought that would take less effort than trying to troubleshoot the problem and potentially obviate the need but it turns out I was kind of wrong about that because I have some kind of perverse need to explain myself to people who seem to think I'm helpless and stupid because I asked a question and then reframed it when I got an unsatisfactory answer.

The paragraph above is not a question and it doesn't contain a problem that needs solving. Just saying is all I guess. I would like to correct you on a matter of fact though. I don't have to stop playing online when Iso closes, because there's Goko.

[pinkymadigan]

The paragraph above is not a question and it doesn't contain a problem that needs solving. Just saying is all I guess. I would like to correct you on a matter of fact though. I don't have to stop playing online when Iso closes, because there's Goko.

Well, if it explodes your browser, then yes, you will have to stop playing. Or find an alternative.

[jhkokst]

This past week I have been heading over to Goko more often than Iso - primarily for access to DA cards. As previous people have said, the experience is reaching a point where I might shell out the dough for cards.  I have to agree that it lacks the same kind of competitive feel as Isotropic. But if they continue to take player requests into account, and the player base continues to grow as it currently is, it may get there.

+'s
Card art
Dark Ages
Relatively quick gameplay if your opponent knows what they are doing
Relatively short wait for a game if you find an opponent who you enjoy playing with and agree to matches
Player base that is growing in competitiveness
It is completely free and I am finding that many people I play with own all the sets

-'s
Lack of automatch means considerable wait times in situations other than what I mentioned above
Lack of any sort of misclick protection - major annoyance as you get used to the interface
Lack of a log that is actually usable during gameplay (w/o opening the log screen)
Lack of a single room - I general bounce between the occupied rooms to find games
Issues with dropped players/disconnects
Occasional bugs
The revamped store with a megapack that costs more than the individual sets combined

Regarding the IP debate.  Most boardgame companies require payment for access to the online equivalent.  Hasbro has most of their games out through Pogo.com - which costs $5 a month.  Settlers of Catan also cost $5 a month for access to all expansions etc.  At the end of the day, one can go onto Goko and play base for free, with a high probability of playing all sets for free (because someone else paid).  I know money doesn't grow on trees, but $45 isn't that much to ask for access to an online player base of dominion players w/ the chance to play cards from all sets.  THAT is the privilege you are paying the $$$ for, and it is something that was not promised to you when you bought the physical sets.  Heck, I've had hangovers that cost me well over twice that. 

Lastly, I think its clear that Goko is marketed towards people who prefer to play Dominion online.  People like the top 10 on Isotropic who have logged an average of 5500 games per player (and I'm guessing tat and dekomri are alts, which would inflate that number).  That's less than a penny a game if they were playing on Goko. 

But if you don't want to pay...don't.

[enfynet]

Does Goko have anything like Isotropic's ability to play random with specific cards or sets?

[ftl]

Not yet.

[Kirian]

Does Goko have anything like Isotropic's ability to play random with specific cards or sets?

Halfway.  You can't specify "10 random from this set," but you can specify "these four cards and six random others."

[ashersky]

Given the additional positive comments, jumped over to try Goko out.  It runs on Chrome for iPad, but not very well.  As mentioned, I only have mobile computing at my disposal, so until Goko supports mobile devices, I literally cannot switch.

Also, I attempted multiplayer, found an open seat, took it...and nothing happened.  I just was in the slot, but no game started.  That is no fun at all.

Single player worked.  A little wonky and choppy with the animations, but I was able to complete a game without problem.

[loppo]

Also, I attempted multiplayer, found an open seat, took it...and nothing happened.  I just was in the slot, but no game started.  That is no fun at all.

The host of the game decides
  - when to start the game
  - if he wants you in the game (he can kick you out, before the game begins)

so getting a free ride, takes some patience. However if you have the cards getting a game started is a jiffy.

[GiB]

++ Decent AI, adventure mode
- Hand is not sorted until it reaches big size, misreads possible
-- Lack of any in-game point counter

Card art is not really a plus. At least I really like Treasure cards on Iso being differently colored, Goko seems to be favoring hand-misreads. Is it possible to have the new art for base cards ?

The main reasons I prefer Iso right now are the log, Goko's loading time and occasional crashes, hand display and point counter.

If Goko fixes all that I'll gladly make the switch, but right now it goes something like Iso >>>> Goko > IRL.

[shMerker]

The paragraph above is not a question and it doesn't contain a problem that needs solving. Just saying is all I guess. I would like to correct you on a matter of fact though. I don't have to stop playing online when Iso closes, because there's Goko.

Well, if it explodes your browser, then yes, you will have to stop playing. Or find an alternative.

I'm sure there's a way to fix it. I alluded to as much above. Tell me more about what I can and can't do. I can't honestly tell if you think you're proving something or we're just both trying to bait each other into some kind of pointless discussion.

[pinkymadigan]

The paragraph above is not a question and it doesn't contain a problem that needs solving. Just saying is all I guess. I would like to correct you on a matter of fact though. I don't have to stop playing online when Iso closes, because there's Goko.

Well, if it explodes your browser, then yes, you will have to stop playing. Or find an alternative.

I'm sure there's a way to fix it. I alluded to as much above. Tell me more about what I can and can't do. I can't honestly tell if you think you're proving something or we're just both trying to bait each other into some kind of pointless discussion.

Okay, then my original point stands. Fix it and convince yourself. This is getting rather circular.

[shMerker]

The paragraph above is not a question and it doesn't contain a problem that needs solving. Just saying is all I guess. I would like to correct you on a matter of fact though. I don't have to stop playing online when Iso closes, because there's Goko.

Well, if it explodes your browser, then yes, you will have to stop playing. Or find an alternative.

I'm sure there's a way to fix it. I alluded to as much above. Tell me more about what I can and can't do. I can't honestly tell if you think you're proving something or we're just both trying to bait each other into some kind of pointless discussion.

Okay, then my original point stands. Fix it and convince yourself. This is getting rather circular.

No it's cool. I got my answer. Thanks.

[Dargone]

Wife and I are loving Goko. For us, $45 was a steal to get all the cards.

[olneyce]

+'s
Card art
Dark Ages
Relatively quick gameplay if your opponent knows what they are doing
Relatively short wait for a game if you find an opponent who you enjoy playing with and agree to matches
Player base that is growing in competitiveness
It is completely free and I am finding that many people I play with own all the sets

"Relatively short wait for a game if you find an opponent who you enjoy playing with and agree to matches" is about as backhanded a compliment as I can imagine.  The wait time if you have an opponent to play multiple games with ought to be basically zero.

How is the wait time if you just want a competitive game against a random person?  For Iso it's ~10 seconds.  My limited experience on Goko says that it's a lot more.  Would those who play more disagree?

[heron]

Also, relatively quick gameplay?
Relative to what?
The only thing I can compare it to is iso, and iso games tend to take less time, I'm pretty sure.

[Dargone]

+'s
Card art
Dark Ages
Relatively quick gameplay if your opponent knows what they are doing
Relatively short wait for a game if you find an opponent who you enjoy playing with and agree to matches
Player base that is growing in competitiveness
It is completely free and I am finding that many people I play with own all the sets

"Relatively short wait for a game if you find an opponent who you enjoy playing with and agree to matches" is about as backhanded a compliment as I can imagine.  The wait time if you have an opponent to play multiple games with ought to be basically zero.

How is the wait time if you just want a competitive game against a random person?  For Iso it's ~10 seconds.  My limited experience on Goko says that it's a lot more.  Would those who play more disagree?

Played last night and I never waited more than a minute or so to get a game going. To be fair, it was a Saturday night...

[Blueswan]

Love Goko except for the constant lagging and occasional crashes.

Is Goko running smoothly (no lagging) for anyone?

[Beyond Awesome]

Love Goko except for the constant lagging and occasional crashes.

Is Goko running smoothly (no lagging) for anyone?

No lag for me. I do experience the occassional crash though.

[Blueswan]

Love Goko except for the constant lagging and occasional crashes.

Is Goko running smoothly (no lagging) for anyone?

No lag for me. I do experience the occassional crash though.

No lagging, really? What I wouldn't give for that. Which browser are you using?

[Beyond Awesome]

Love Goko except for the constant lagging and occasional crashes.

Is Goko running smoothly (no lagging) for anyone?

No lag for me. I do experience the occassional crash though.

No lagging, really? What I wouldn't give for that. Which browser are you using?

I'm using Chrome.

[loppo]

Love Goko except for the constant lagging and occasional crashes.

Is Goko running smoothly (no lagging) for anyone?

no lag for me either. And almost no crashes (most crashes are quits/freezes from opponents). I think the last time the game crashed on me was 3 weeks ago. Also running chrome.

[Awaclus]

Love Goko except for the constant lagging and occasional crashes.

Is Goko running smoothly (no lagging) for anyone?

Yes, no problems here with Opera.

[Blueswan]

Weird. I'm using chrome too and it lags so much that I have not wanted to play anybody online. I've only been playing AI opponents. Basically every other turn or so the board will freeze up for 5-10 seconds or so and then resume. And I've tried this on several computers using Chrome, Firefox and Explorer.

[jhkokst]

+'s
Card art
Dark Ages
Relatively quick gameplay if your opponent knows what they are doing
Relatively short wait for a game if you find an opponent who you enjoy playing with and agree to matches
Player base that is growing in competitiveness
It is completely free and I am finding that many people I play with own all the sets

"Relatively short wait for a game if you find an opponent who you enjoy playing with and agree to matches" is about as backhanded a compliment as I can imagine.  The wait time if you have an opponent to play multiple games with ought to be basically zero.

How is the wait time if you just want a competitive game against a random person?  For Iso it's ~10 seconds.  My limited experience on Goko says that it's a lot more.  Would those who play more disagree?

I definitely see how that can sound back-handed.  But compared to 3 months ago when I would log on to Goko only to wait 20 minutes to end up in a game playing base dominion, things are moving alot quicker now.  It is better than it used to be (and dark ages is fun).

Nothing is faster than Iso at the moment.  No argument there.

For me, the two things that need to be addressed asap are the lack of automatch and the lack of any sort of misclick protection.  I ended a turn the other day with 10 coin + 1 buy due to an accidental click...and it was happy to let me.

[eHalcyon]

Also, relatively quick gameplay?
Relative to what?
The only thing I can compare it to is iso, and iso games tend to take less time, I'm pretty sure.

I am going to guess that is relative to IRL play.

[Blueswan]

Those of you with no lagging, are you solely playing against other humans or are you also playing against AI opponents? I'm thinking that maybe the problem only occurs against AI opponents?

[Beyond Awesome]

Those of you with no lagging, are you solely playing against other humans or are you also playing against AI opponents? I'm thinking that maybe the problem only occurs against AI opponents?

I only play humans. Some players do seem to take a while though, so maybe on their end, they are lagging. I find playing against the AI rather predictable.

[loppo]

i play the bots sometimes, to try out strategies. Lags and freezes never happened when playing bots. I only have them playing human opponents

[kn1tt3r]

i play the bots sometimes, to try out strategies. Lags and freezes never happened when playing bots. I only have them playing human opponents

I did have freezes against bots.

[Dargone]

Those of you with no lagging, are you solely playing against other humans or are you also playing against AI opponents? I'm thinking that maybe the problem only occurs against AI opponents?

Playing both and noticing very little lag. Using Google Chrome...

[Blueswan]

Played two games against humans this evening for the first time. Loads of lagging again. Major annoyance.

[Kirian]

I've had no real lag issues.  A couple of bumps against bots before the most recent patch.

[Dsell]

Played two games against humans this evening for the first time. Loads of lagging again. Major annoyance.

At first I thought this was satire referencing RL play. I laughed. XD

[Blueswan]

Played two games against humans this evening for the first time. Loads of lagging again. Major annoyance.

At first I thought this was satire referencing RL play. I laughed. XD

yeah, I see how it could be read like that. 

[Ozle]

Mine lags in chrome, but I have an old version, .24 I think the later versions solve this though

[Blueswan]

Mine lags in chrome, but I have an old version, .24 I think the later versions solve this though

I run the latest version of Chrome and it still lags.

However, I just discovered that there's no lagging on my laptop I use for work. So maybe the issue really is the graphics card on my stationary PC. Crazy.

[cluckyb]

Finally caved in and bought the expansions on Goko. Been playing a lot against the bots. Sometimes they can be really stupid had a (KC + Apprentice game and two of them soon trashed the whole hands, bought copper, and then trashed in the next turn...) but generally they put up a fair challenge and its even faster than playing against humans on iso...

[Awaclus]

Mine lags in chrome, but I have an old version, .24 I think the later versions solve this though

Mine lags? But the other cards work fine?

[Blueswan]

Mine lags in chrome, but I have an old version, .24 I think the later versions solve this though

Mine lags? But the other cards work fine?

My PC! 

[SCSN]

Would it be possible for Goko to release an API so that people can program their own client? I'd gladly pay a bit extra for isotropical minimalism.

[werothegreat]

Would it be possible for Goko to release an API so that people can program their own client? I'd gladly pay a bit extra for isotropical minimalism.

So... you want to pay them money... to give you fewer features?  I thought Dilbert was just an exaggeration.

[SCSN]

Would it be possible for Goko to release an API so that people can program their own client? I'd gladly pay a bit extra for isotropical minimalism.

So... you want to pay them money... to give you fewer features?  I thought Dilbert was just an exaggeration.

Never bought a Chapel?

[Kirian]

Would it be possible for Goko to release an API so that people can program their own client? I'd gladly pay a bit extra for isotropical minimalism.

So... you want to pay them money... to give you fewer features?  I thought Dilbert was just an exaggeration.

I'm sure many people will agree that several things they call "features" are in fact "distractions."  Animations come to mind, for instance.

[Blueswan]

Played some more on my laptop. Still no lagging. Amazing.

However, I don't want to play on my laptop, I want to play on my stationary and it annoys me that I can't figure out why it lags.

My stationary has a faster CPU than my laptop.

My stationary has a shitty Radeon HD 5450 GPU (I'm not a PC gamer), but my laptop has onboard graphics, which ought to be even shittier.

[Eevee]

I'd definitely pay (more) money for a text mode.

[HB]

I like Isotropic much better simply because the interface is so much better than goko's.

[Blueswan]

Excuse me for being a noob - but don't you have to know what the cards do at Isotropic? Or is there any way to see what the cards do?

Anyway, that's what I figured, so I only play at Goko.

[Powerman]

Excuse me for being a noob - but don't you have to know what the cards do at Isotropic? Or is there any way to see what the cards do?

Anyway, that's what I figured, so I only play at Goko.

You can see what the cards do by hitting the "read cards" button on the side of the screen.

[Kirian]

Excuse me for being a noob - but don't you have to know what the cards do at Isotropic? Or is there any way to see what the cards do?

Anyway, that's what I figured, so I only play at Goko.

Mouseover the cards and stay for a couple of seconds.

[Blueswan]

Ahhh. Thanks for the explanation. Isotropic just looked like an "insiders game" where you had to know everything in advance, so I went with Goko.

[Schneau]

I do have to say this: Goko is more user-friendly to noobs and those with low computer literacy.

[ipofanes]

Excuse me for being a noob - but don't you have to know what the cards do at Isotropic? Or is there any way to see what the cards do?

Anyway, that's what I figured, so I only play at Goko.

This is a bit as designed, as there is some thinking that Isotropic is for those who have bought the game.

So actually, NO excuse you are a noob  and Goko might suit your likes better as well as fit the business model of the producers.

[eHalcyon]

Played some more on my laptop. Still no lagging. Amazing.

However, I don't want to play on my laptop, I want to play on my stationary and it annoys me that I can't figure out why it lags.

My stationary has a faster CPU than my laptop.

My stationary has a shitty Radeon HD 5450 GPU (I'm not a PC gamer), but my laptop has onboard graphics, which ought to be even shittier.

Browser versions?

[Jacob marley]

I do have to say this: Goko is more user-friendly to noobs and those with low computer literacy.

This fits my experience.  My first (and only) time on Iso, I was taking a few minutes to get a handle on unfamiliar cards (despite having asked for a bias toward sets I owned, I had mostly cards I had never seen), and quickly got rude comments to hurry up.  I just quit the game and never went back.  With Goko, I played bots until I was up to speed on how the game worked at least before jumping into multiplayer.

[pingpongsam]

I do have to say this: Goko is more user-friendly to noobs and those with low computer literacy.

This fits my experience.  My first (and only) time on Iso, I was taking a few minutes to get a handle on unfamiliar cards (despite having asked for a bias toward sets I owned, I had mostly cards I had never seen), and quickly got rude comments to hurry up.  I just quit the game and never went back.  With Goko, I played bots until I was up to speed on how the game worked at least before jumping into multiplayer.

Iso has a solo mode. Also most people are amenable to someone saying they need to read cards or study the board. Assholes can be found anywhere. Assholes do things like not set Iso to limit the experience of the match-up then demand the noob gogogogo. I don't imagine that Goko is somehow asshole proof.

[Drab Emordnilap]

This fits my experience.  My first (and only) time on Iso, I was taking a few minutes to get a handle on unfamiliar cards (despite having asked for a bias toward sets I owned, I had mostly cards I had never seen), and quickly got rude comments to hurry up.  I just quit the game and never went back.  With Goko, I played bots until I was up to speed on how the game worked at least before jumping into multiplayer.

That is unfortunate; I hope you won't let that experience color your opinion of this community. My third game of Dominion was on Isotropic, and my first couple dozen games were prefaced with "I'm sorry, but I need to read the cards". Almost everyone responded positively, or at least not negatively.

On the other hand, I played a game with a perfect gentleman today who said nothing until, when the game was over, he said "gg novice get owned". It was a tie game.

[greatexpectations]

This fits my experience.  My first (and only) time on Iso, I was taking a few minutes to get a handle on unfamiliar cards (despite having asked for a bias toward sets I owned, I had mostly cards I had never seen), and quickly got rude comments to hurry up.  I just quit the game and never went back.  With Goko, I played bots until I was up to speed on how the game worked at least before jumping into multiplayer.

i think schneau was referring to the interface itself. isotropic is not entirely intuitive if you are unfamiliar with the game. as others have mentioned, you will find jerks anywhere you go.

and fwiw i'm not sure that judging isotropic by a single experience is the best way to indirectly make a case for goko. if everyone on this forum judged goko by only their first experience you would have loads more people who won't even bother with goko.

[Blueswan]

Played some more on my laptop. Still no lagging. Amazing.

However, I don't want to play on my laptop, I want to play on my stationary and it annoys me that I can't figure out why it lags.

My stationary has a faster CPU than my laptop.

My stationary has a shitty Radeon HD 5450 GPU (I'm not a PC gamer), but my laptop has onboard graphics, which ought to be even shittier.

Browser versions?

Chrome - totally up to date. Also tried with Firefox, Explorer and Opera. I have safely concluded that the browser is not the issue.

[ashersky]

I do have to say this: Goko is more user-friendly to noobs and those with low computer literacy.

This fits my experience.  My first (and only) time on Iso, I was taking a few minutes to get a handle on unfamiliar cards (despite having asked for a bias toward sets I owned, I had mostly cards I had never seen), and quickly got rude comments to hurry up.  I just quit the game and never went back.  With Goko, I played bots until I was up to speed on how the game worked at least before jumping into multiplayer.

I understand this, I think.  I played Base physically a few times and liked it enough to seek out online implementations.  All googles kept leading to iso.  I played at the German site for awhile because I was scared of all the unknown cards, but after some solo and base/intrigue weighted games on iso, I never looked back.

I read every article on this site.  I watched what my opponents did.  And I learned just how amazing Dominion really is.  I'm probably maxed out as far as levels go, and that's cool.  I got four or five games in during the DA Dream yesterday.

Iso defined Dominion for me as one of the greatest games ever made.  Goko doesn't do that (for me, or yet?) because what I feel like I'm watching there is Angry Birds: Dominion.

[Dsell]

My friend was playing with/teaching Dominion to a very new player last night. In the last 8 months, she's played once with the cards and maybe 5 times on Isotropic. Since she's still learning I suggested that Goko might be a better fit, since the interface is more like real life Dominion. They played one game on Goko and the new player asked to go back to Isotropic because Goko's interface is so busy.

I'd been thinking maybe only experienced Isotropic players would find Iso's interface better and that new players would prefer Goko, but last night proved me wrong.

[Blueswan]

Finally "fixed" my problem with lagging on Goko. Turns out it must be the antivirus/firewall program. I just tried disabling it and lo and behold - no lagging. At least not in the one game I just played with it disabled.

However, disabling your security programs it not really a great solution, obviously.

[DStu]

However, disabling your security programs it not really a great solution, obviously.

You could maybe try to just except goko.com in the firewall/antivirus...

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[Ozle]

I just tried the above, and then I stubbed my toe on the door leaving the room for a sandwich,

SStu, You shall be hearing from Injurylawyersforyou.com

[DStu]

SStu

I'll just count that as an insult, and we settle?

[loppo]

Finally "fixed" my problem with lagging on Goko. Turns out it must be the antivirus/firewall program. I just tried disabling it and lo and behold - no lagging. At least not in the one game I just played with it disabled.

However, disabling your security programs it not really a great solution, obviously.

here is something from gokos getsatisfaction, that might be helpful for you:
 
Hi.... can you try this? First, try to login (even if it doesn't succeed it creates a cookie we need for the next part). Then, go here:

http://www.goko.com/games/status

and where it says "Choose Connection Port", choose "Port 2" and set that.

Then see if you can login and play games. We have noticed that some personal firewalls object to our default port so please try the 2nd port and see if that does it.

Thanks!
John Q.

[pingpongsam]

It's always a good idea to make a browser based game that doesn't work over port 80/443.