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Author Topic: Weak and strong boards  (Read 1211 times)

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Qvist

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Weak and strong boards
« on: January 13, 2013, 01:28:57 am »
0

My post regarding Black Market got me thinking.
I mean you do this stuff intuitively. But I like to have this formulate in words.

1.) How do you define a weak or a strong board? What prerequisites must be there that a board is strong?

2.) What do you think how many percentage of real random boards are strong and how many are weak?

I like to hear you opinions first before I answer these question myself...
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 01:54:23 am by Qvist »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Weak and strong boards
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2013, 02:36:47 am »
+1

I won't try to answer question 2, or even 1b.  But my definition of board strength is how strong pure BMU does against any strategy using any card or cards from the kingdom.  The better pure BMU can do, the weaker the board.

There should always be something that's better than BMU... but sometimes not very much.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 02:39:11 am by eHalcyon »
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Wingnut

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Re: Weak and strong boards
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2013, 04:10:43 am »
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For the first question, is there more than one really strong strategy out on the board. For example something like Vault/Grand Market and Wharf/Bank are both available. In other words, multiple combos or strong engines (I was recently beaten IRL with my Fishing Village/Wharf engine by a variant of FV-Watchtower.

By now, close to 50% of boards I think are fairly strong. Pre-Cornucopia that wasn't the case but Cornucopia, Hinterlands and Dark Ages have really made everything stronger.

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Weak and strong boards
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2013, 11:53:07 am »
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I won't try to answer question 2, or even 1b.  But my definition of board strength is how strong pure BMU does against any strategy using any card or cards from the kingdom.  The better pure BMU can do, the weaker the board.

There should always be something that's better than BMU... but sometimes not very much.
Three things: One, there are some boards that there's nothing better than BMU on (they're extremely extremely rare though). Two, and more important, there are a large number of strategies which are approximately 100% against BMU, and thus a lot of boards are going to top out your metric, but there's a lot of variation within board strength amongst these sets. Three, and this one is really tricky, there are going to be some boards which are weaker by your measure, but really stronger overall. What I have in mind is some way to set up a pin, very surely, but it's also going to be very surely slow. Of course, BMU is incredibly slow to end the game, so you could well get that pin set up in time usually, giving it a very good score on your metric. On the other hand, there may be some other board where a strategy is USUALLY very strong and fast, but sometimes not - think like chapel missing a reshuffle or something kills it, but something that is going to make it lose like 20% of the time - but this still might be usually better than the slow-but-surefire example. Something more reasonable is like a standard duke slog, which almost ALWAYS beats BMU, against an engine which is usually going to beat both but sometimes draws really badly and doesn't come together in time.

Having said all that, I do think this is a reasonably good rough proxy.

thirtyseven

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Re: Weak and strong boards
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2013, 06:41:04 pm »
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Generally, boards with weak or no $5+ (kingdom) cards are weak boards... not always true, but the simplest metric. Throw in a curser or any power card and it can be considered a strong, or at least not weak, board. Strong boards are harder to define, unless you just mean "non-weak" boards.

Edit: And as far as percentages, very few boards I've come across I'd consider weak... 10% maybe.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 06:42:50 pm by thirtyseven »
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I'm only a mid-level player, so I may be wrong...
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