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Author Topic: Highway+Market combo  (Read 6710 times)

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Geronimoo

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Highway+Market combo
« on: January 26, 2013, 10:41:37 am »
+4

I just played a game featuring the Highway/Market Combo which my opponent correctly went for while I got sucked into Big Money Moneylender because I didn't realize how strong the combo was. I fired up my simulator and found that this combo (+Moneylender) will beat Big Money Moneylender 9 times out of 10 . If you're uncontested the combo should be played like this:

-buy as few Silvers as possible (max 2)
-don't buy Gold
-buy a Market for every 2 Highways you have in your deck (approximation, but probably close to correct)
-go for one or 2 mega turns
-don't try this combo without at least a light trasher (even Trade Route will do)

And here's a bot to play around with in the simulator:
Code: [Select]
<player name="Highway/Market (+Moneylender)"
 author="Computer"
 description="This bot has been generated by the computer without any optimization. XXXXIt just buys a single Action card and money">
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="Generated"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Highway"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="8.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Highway">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Highway"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Market"/>
         <extra_operation type="multiplyWith" attribute="2.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Market"/>
   <buy name="Moneylender">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Moneylender"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Silver"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
</player>
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Qvist

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2013, 12:07:26 pm »
0

This is exactly the experience I had. I will add some of your data to what I wrote here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Combo:_Highway_and_Market

lespeutere

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2013, 12:24:29 pm »
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It's definitely cool to see you providing simulations again.
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sandstorm

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2013, 09:37:42 pm »
0

Which is stronger highway/market or highway/market square? My guess is that highway/market square is better since they don't compete at the same price.

EDIT: I guess even highway/workers village would be strong too. Peddler and conspirator would make these strategies insane
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 09:43:06 pm by sandstorm »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 09:53:19 pm »
0

I had a fun Highway/Workers Village/City game once with Colonies.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2013, 10:08:59 pm »
0

Any cantrip source of +buy works
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jomini

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 10:29:28 pm »
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Any cantrip source of +buy works
Actually, even non-cantrip +buy can work if it is cheap enough/there is enough cheap support. I've done Hamlet/Courtyard/Highway stocking up on Hamlet and Courtyard with two Hwy in play. Festival works great, as always, with limited draw like Lib and even Woodcutters can become viable (e.g. Colonies) with cheap village/draw out (e.g. Village/Oracle). I've only done it once, but I think Squire might be viable with very minimal support (e.g. Xroads).

Other things that become quickly viable are TfB and card gainers. Iw/Hwy works fairly well, particularly with any 4 cost engine (e.g. Walled Village/Smithy), you only need 4 Hwy to start Iw'ing Provinces. Develop can actually be good as an early crappy light trasher, getting you some early economy with Estate -> Silver, turning Coppers -> components (Village, Hwy), and if uncontested, anything -> Prov.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2013, 10:43:19 pm »
0

Any cantrip source of +buy works
Actually, even non-cantrip +buy can work if it is cheap enough/there is enough cheap support. I've done Hamlet/Courtyard/Highway stocking up on Hamlet and Courtyard with two Hwy in play. Festival works great, as always, with limited draw like Lib and even Woodcutters can become viable (e.g. Colonies) with cheap village/draw out (e.g. Village/Oracle). I've only done it once, but I think Squire might be viable with very minimal support (e.g. Xroads).

Other things that become quickly viable are TfB and card gainers. Iw/Hwy works fairly well, particularly with any 4 cost engine (e.g. Walled Village/Smithy), you only need 4 Hwy to start Iw'ing Provinces. Develop can actually be good as an early crappy light trasher, getting you some early economy with Estate -> Silver, turning Coppers -> components (Village, Hwy), and if uncontested, anything -> Prov.
Festival is great with any Terminal draw as an enabler. Hamlet is nice too as a cheap source of +buy. I dunno about TFB's, though, the ones that deal with cost coupled with a cost reducer is counter-intuitive.
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gman314

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2013, 11:07:00 pm »
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Yeah, Salvager/Apprentice/Bishop are bad choices. However, the entire Remodel family takes advantage of the fact that costs can't go below $0 to become pretty darn awesome. Especially Remodel/Expand which you can use to go from $0 to $0 and so don't have to limit the number of Highways you play.
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heron

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2013, 02:33:04 pm »
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Don't forget swindler; swindling your opponents golds into curses is too much fun.
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Davio

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2013, 03:07:03 pm »
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Yeah, Salvager/Apprentice/Bishop are bad choices. However, the entire Remodel family takes advantage of the fact that costs can't go below $0 to become pretty darn awesome. Especially Remodel/Expand which you can use to go from $0 to $0 and so don't have to limit the number of Highways you play.
Be careful though, I once played too many Highways in a Remake game so I couldn't convert my Coppers into Duchies anymore - which I needed to win that turn. Of course it only takes 5 Highways to do that, but I also had a Village and stupidly just played every Highway first.
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gman314

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2013, 05:19:02 pm »
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Yeah, Salvager/Apprentice/Bishop are bad choices. However, the entire Remodel family takes advantage of the fact that costs can't go below $0 to become pretty darn awesome. Especially Remodel/Expand which you can use to go from $0 to $0 and so don't have to limit the number of Highways you play.
Be careful though, I once played too many Highways in a Remake game so I couldn't convert my Coppers into Duchies anymore - which I needed to win that turn. Of course it only takes 5 Highways to do that, but I also had a Village and stupidly just played every Highway first.

Yeah, like I said, only Remodel/Expand are worded as "up to" and so can go from $0 to $0. The others all say exactly and so you actually have to care.
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jomini

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2013, 08:08:37 pm »
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Scaling TfB's besides the remodel family can actually work, provided you can use them before you begin reducing cost. For instance, top decking Border Village/Apprentice can work extremely well at giving a 9 card starting hand. With more difficulty you can do things like buy a province now, salvage it and buy out 4 provinces at 2 coin each. Yeah, these things are iffy and unreliable most of the time, but sometimes you lose the Hwy split and have to gamble on something like that to make up it for earlier bad luck.

One place where this can actually be really strong is with Colony games. If you both went Hwy, you will rarely get Colonies down below 3 coin, so doing a 5 colony megaturn needs to come up with a minimum of 15 coin, and often more if you need to pad your lead out with provinces. Buying a colony or gaining a Plat in order to trash it with Apprentice or Salvager before playing cost reduction can give you enough oomph to either draw a huge pile of coin or sell high and buy low as it were. Likewise, quarry can sometimes make buy low/sell high viable for Hwy decks.

Yeah, all of this is niche stuff, but take a moment and don't just write it off. Maybe 5-10% of the time when you have Apprentice/Salvager/Bishop out with a nice Hwy combo you can use buy low/sell high tactics to your benefit; often the biggest reason not to do so is just opportunity cost.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 12:10:09 pm by jomini »
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dondon151

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2013, 11:43:05 am »
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Salvager and Bishop are relatively quite a bit worse than Apprentice, but if you need to slim down some Coppers and Estates and there isn't anything better, you don't have much choice.

Upgrade, Develop, and Remake are kind of annoying, but on the other hand, Remaking 2 Coppers into Highways or Markets or other engine pieces is very strong.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 11:44:09 am by dondon151 »
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philosophyguy

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2013, 11:49:40 am »
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I'd be interested in having better players (i.e., anyone) comment on this observation. It seems like there's one more piece of this combo, and it's mild filtering. Haven fills that role in this game.

This observation comes from thinking about the "With his first $6, Stef buys a Spy" game. That game, like this, was built on a cantrip-but-no-handsize-increasing-draw setup. Those kinds of decks seem very vulnerable to greening. Mild filtering, like Haven, Spy, or Inn, seems to be important in keeping the deck firing past the first couple of greening turns.

Thoughts?
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dondon151

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2013, 12:03:28 pm »
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You can deal with having ~4 green cards in deck if you buy a lot of them at once. Filtering and/or card draw definitely helps if you need to sustain the combo at its maximum strength, but if you get like a triple Province turn and you're ahead, you don't really mind so much if you can only buy 2 Provinces next time and then hobble the rest of the way home on Duchies.

In a mirror, though, chances are that you'll 3-pile before emptying Provinces.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Highway+Market combo
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2013, 01:30:45 pm »
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Filtering, draw engine, trashing fill relatively the same role in this kind of deck, with some nuanced differences.
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