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Author Topic: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?  (Read 11465 times)

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LastFootnote

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Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« on: December 15, 2012, 10:13:54 am »
0

Let's say the Province pile has 2 Embargo tokens on it. If I have a Haggler in play and I buy a Province, could I gain a Curse, gain a Gold from the Haggler, then gain the other Curse?
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TWoos

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2012, 12:22:37 pm »
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The text on Embargo makes me think you have to gain all curses at once.

Out of curiosity, why do you ask?  Is there some edge case where it might matter what order they're gained in?
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Qvist

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2012, 12:29:47 pm »
+3

Out of curiosity, why do you ask?  Is there some edge case where it might matter what order they're gained in?

Watchtower and Trader in hand. You want to gain Silvers instead of Curses and want to put all the cards gained on top of the deck and draw some of the cards still in your turn. The order matters.

And I have no idea about the answer. But I suspect you have to gain all the Curses at once.

PSGarak

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2012, 12:40:57 pm »
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I was trying to figure out a situation where this could possibly matter, and it was difficult. Even considering top-decking, it's not possible to play treasure cards after you start buying (and you can't Embargo the Black Market deck, right?), and the top 5 cards in your deck end up in your next hand regardless of order. Nonetheless I was able to find a situation where it not only has a game impact, but isn't entirely stupid. If you buy from a supply pile with 10 Embargo tokens on it, with three Hagglers in play, and a Watchtower in hand, and Chapel is in the supply, then you would want to top-deck cards in a specific order so that you can have 1 Chapel in each of your next 3 hands. If all Embargo tokens are a single event, then it is not possible to top-deck all 10 curses and have Chapel show up in your second hand.

Quote
When a player buys a card, he gains a Curse card per Embargo token on that pile.
To me, this wording implies a singular event, because the trigger only occurs once. I.e. on every buy this event is triggered, which hands out a variable number of curses. Note that, under this reading, the event is triggered for non-Embargoed piles as well, it just hands out 0 tokens. If the token count were involved in the trigger instead of the event, there would be a stronger case for multiple events.
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AJD

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2012, 01:36:17 pm »
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The text on Embargo makes me think you have to gain all curses at once.

I think you're right. Which means, counterintuitively, this is an actual difference between Embargo-as-written, and this notional alternate version:

Token-Free Embargo
+$2
Trash this card. Name a Supply pile. For the rest of the game, when a player buys a card from the named pile, he gains a Curse.

I claim that with actual Embargo the Curses must all be gained at once, but with Token-Free Embargo other on-buy effects could take place between Curse gains.

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Donald X.

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2012, 01:38:23 pm »
+1

Let's say the Province pile has 2 Embargo tokens on it. If I have a Haggler in play and I buy a Province, could I gain a Curse, gain a Gold from the Haggler, then gain the other Curse?
No. Embargo triggers once, giving you a pile of Curses.
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TWoos

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2012, 03:14:44 pm »
0

Out of curiosity, why do you ask?  Is there some edge case where it might matter what order they're gained in?

Watchtower and Trader in hand. You want to gain Silvers instead of Curses and want to put all the cards gained on top of the deck and draw some of the cards still in your turn. The order matters.

He's already buying.  Even if you could draw cards, they're dead.

So, when would the order matter?  You can have Gold, Silver, Silver, or Silver, Silver, Gold, but not Silver, Gold, Silver.   I can't think of a case where that third ordering would be preferred.
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Qvist

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2012, 03:41:44 pm »
0

Out of curiosity, why do you ask?  Is there some edge case where it might matter what order they're gained in?

Watchtower and Trader in hand. You want to gain Silvers instead of Curses and want to put all the cards gained on top of the deck and draw some of the cards still in your turn. The order matters.

He's already buying.  Even if you could draw cards, they're dead.

So, when would the order matter?  You can have Gold, Silver, Silver, or Silver, Silver, Gold, but not Silver, Gold, Silver.   I can't think of a case where that third ordering would be preferred.

Yeah, my bad. Not with 2 Embargo tokens, but I think there are several cases with 5 or more Embargo Tokens. So that you know the top card of your second next hand.

TWoos

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2012, 04:04:14 pm »
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You can have Gold, Silver, Silver, or Silver, Silver, Gold, but not Silver, Gold, Silver.   I can't think of a case where that third ordering would be preferred.

Yeah, my bad. Not with 2 Embargo tokens, but I think there are several cases with 5 or more Embargo Tokens. So that you know the top card of your second next hand.

True,  but if you're buying a card with 5 (or more!) Embargo tokens on it, that's a very strange game already.  Especially since they can only be top-decked if you have Watchtower in hand... and why aren't you trashing the Curses instead?

EDIT: D'oh.  Forgot about Royal Seal, which can also top-deck.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 04:09:42 pm by TWoos »
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Qvist

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2012, 04:17:28 pm »
0

True,  but if you're buying a card with 5 (or more!) Embargo tokens on it, that's a very strange game already.  Especially since they can only be top-decked if you have Watchtower in hand... and why aren't you trashing the Curses instead?


Trader and Watchtower

LastFootnote

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2012, 03:37:02 pm »
0

Let's say the Province pile has 2 Embargo tokens on it. If I have a Haggler in play and I buy a Province, could I gain a Curse, gain a Gold from the Haggler, then gain the other Curse?
No. Embargo triggers once, giving you a pile of Curses.

Thanks for the ruling. Am I right in saying that gaining the pile of Curses is an on-buy event with the same timing as other on-buy events? For instance, if I had two Hagglers in play, could i gain a card from one Haggler, gain the stack of Curses from the Embargo tokens, then gain a card from the other Haggler?
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Donald X.

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2012, 03:59:43 pm »
+1

Thanks for the ruling. Am I right in saying that gaining the pile of Curses is an on-buy event with the same timing as other on-buy events? For instance, if I had two Hagglers in play, could i gain a card from one Haggler, gain the stack of Curses from the Embargo tokens, then gain a card from the other Haggler?
Yes.
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Jeebus

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2012, 02:53:56 pm »
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Let's say the Province pile has 2 Embargo tokens on it. If I have a Haggler in play and I buy a Province, could I gain a Curse, gain a Gold from the Haggler, then gain the other Curse?
No. Embargo triggers once, giving you a pile of Curses.

Really? Then what about this post: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1701.msg27082#msg27082
It seems to contradict this.

TWoos

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2012, 02:57:09 pm »
+1

Let's say the Province pile has 2 Embargo tokens on it. If I have a Haggler in play and I buy a Province, could I gain a Curse, gain a Gold from the Haggler, then gain the other Curse?
No. Embargo triggers once, giving you a pile of Curses.

Really? Then what about this post: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1701.msg27082#msg27082
It seems to contradict this.

That's not related.  In that thread, he was talking about how you can reveal Trader twice because you have to gain two curses, and the revelation of Trader is a choice for each time you gain a card.  You still have to resolve /all/ of the curses being gained (or gains being subverted) at the same time.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2012, 02:59:08 pm »
0

Let's say the Province pile has 2 Embargo tokens on it. If I have a Haggler in play and I buy a Province, could I gain a Curse, gain a Gold from the Haggler, then gain the other Curse?
No. Embargo triggers once, giving you a pile of Curses.

Really? Then what about this post: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1701.msg27082#msg27082
It seems to contradict this.

That's not related.  In that thread, he was talking about how you can reveal Trader twice because you have to gain two curses, and the revelation of Trader is a choice for each time you gain a card.  You still have to resolve /all/ of the curses being gained (or gains being subverted) at the same time.

Rather, you must resolve all the Curse gains in sequence, without resolving other on-buy effects in between them.
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Donald X.

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2012, 04:05:02 pm »
+4

Really? Then what about this post: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1701.msg27082#msg27082
It seems to contradict this.
As the others have noted, there is no contradiction here. You can't gain two curses simultaneously so you order them. First you gain a curse and then you gain a curse (or, if you wanted the other order, first you gain a curse and then you gain a curse).
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() | (_) ^/

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2012, 04:08:49 pm »
0

.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 12:25:13 pm by () | (_) ^/ »
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zahlman

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2012, 11:53:35 pm »
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He's already buying.  Even if you could draw cards, they're dead.

Venture.
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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2012, 02:13:55 am »
+2

He's already buying.  Even if you could draw cards, they're dead.

Venture.

How can you play Venture if you're already buying?  Buy comes after playing ALL treasures that you wish to play.
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Jeebus

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2012, 06:50:43 am »
+1

Really? Then what about this post: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1701.msg27082#msg27082
It seems to contradict this.
As the others have noted, there is no contradiction here. You can't gain two curses simultaneously so you order them. First you gain a curse and then you gain a curse (or, if you wanted the other order, first you gain a curse and then you gain a curse).

It seems to me (I could be wrong) that this is a new ruling then. You gain two Curses simultaneously, but you also gain a Gold simultaneously with the two Curses. You gain all three cards simultaneously - this much must be correct. From all I know from before, that should mean that you could order the three gains in any order. But what you're saying now is that simultaneous events triggered by one card cannot be broken up by an event happening simultaneously triggered by another card? (I hope there's a better way of phrasing it.)

WanderingWinder

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2012, 08:05:52 am »
0

Really? Then what about this post: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1701.msg27082#msg27082
It seems to contradict this.
As the others have noted, there is no contradiction here. You can't gain two curses simultaneously so you order them. First you gain a curse and then you gain a curse (or, if you wanted the other order, first you gain a curse and then you gain a curse).

It seems to me (I could be wrong) that this is a new ruling then. You gain two Curses simultaneously, but you also gain a Gold simultaneously with the two Curses. You gain all three cards simultaneously - this much must be correct. From all I know from before, that should mean that you could order the three gains in any order. But what you're saying now is that simultaneous events triggered by one card cannot be broken up by an event happening simultaneously triggered by another card? (I hope there's a better way of phrasing it.)
No. Buying the card triggers gaining it per the normal gain rules. And, because it's embargoed, buying it triggers embargo's effect. Those are 2 different trigggers, you can stack them in either order. So those are two separate things. But only two things, so even if there are 8 embargo tokens, that's still only one embargo trigger, it all has to stack together.

Now, if trader or watchtower comes in, then 'about to gain' will trigger separately for every different physical card you get.

Jeebus

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2012, 07:19:00 pm »
0

No. Buying the card triggers gaining it per the normal gain rules. And, because it's embargoed, buying it triggers embargo's effect. Those are 2 different trigggers, you can stack them in either order. So those are two separate things. But only two things, so even if there are 8 embargo tokens, that's still only one embargo trigger, it all has to stack together.

Now, if trader or watchtower comes in, then 'about to gain' will trigger separately for every different physical card you get.

Okay, I think you're confusing things now. When you buy a card with Embargo tokens on it, you'll gain the card you bought of course, but that comes after buying it. First any when-buy events are resolved. In this case that includes the gaining of Curses from the Embargo tokens. So you can't stack them in either order, you always gain the Curses first, then gain the card you bought.

But that isn't what we're talking about. In this example you have a Haggler in play and buy a Province with two Embargo tokens on it. You want a Gold from the Haggler. So you gain two Curses simultaneously with gaining a Gold. Only after those are resolved do you gain the Province that you bought. But the question is the order of the two Curses and the Gold.

Now, you're saying that there's just one Embargo trigger. Yes. But Embargo's trigger causes two things to happen which are technically simultaneous but which have to be resolved one ofter the other. And Haggler's trigger causes another thing to happen which is also simultaneous with the first two things... Seems to me you need a rule saying something along the lines of what I said?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 07:29:26 pm by Jeebus »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2012, 08:50:14 pm »
0

No. Buying the card triggers gaining it per the normal gain rules. And, because it's embargoed, buying it triggers embargo's effect. Those are 2 different trigggers, you can stack them in either order. So those are two separate things. But only two things, so even if there are 8 embargo tokens, that's still only one embargo trigger, it all has to stack together.

Now, if trader or watchtower comes in, then 'about to gain' will trigger separately for every different physical card you get.

Okay, I think you're confusing things now. When you buy a card with Embargo tokens on it, you'll gain the card you bought of course, but that comes after buying it. First any when-buy events are resolved. In this case that includes the gaining of Curses from the Embargo tokens. So you can't stack them in either order, you always gain the Curses first, then gain the card you bought.

But that isn't what we're talking about. In this example you have a Haggler in play and buy a Province with two Embargo tokens on it. You want a Gold from the Haggler. So you gain two Curses simultaneously with gaining a Gold. Only after those are resolved do you gain the Province that you bought. But the question is the order of the two Curses and the Gold.

Now, you're saying that there's just one Embargo trigger. Yes. But Embargo's trigger causes two things to happen which are technically simultaneous but which have to be resolved one ofter the other. And Haggler's trigger causes another thing to happen which is also simultaneous with the first two things... Seems to me you need a rule saying something along the lines of what I said?

I have no idea what you're saying, but hopefully it's clear that you can either do Curse x2 then gold OR gold then curse x2 but not curse-gold-curse?

Jeebus

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2012, 09:08:26 pm »
0

I have no idea what you're saying

Uh... okay..? You said that you can gain the card you bought before you gain the Curses from Embargo. That's wrong. And also not relevant to the discussion.

but hopefully it's clear that you can either do Curse x2 then gold OR gold then curse x2 but not curse-gold-curse?

Yes.

eHalcyon

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Re: Are Curse gains from Embargo tokens separate events?
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2012, 09:45:16 pm »
0

I have no idea what you're saying

Uh... okay..? You said that you can gain the card you bought before you gain the Curses from Embargo. That's wrong. And also not relevant to the discussion.

but hopefully it's clear that you can either do Curse x2 then gold OR gold then curse x2 but not curse-gold-curse?

Yes.

I don't see where WW says that.  It's just about the haggled Gold and the Curses...?
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