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Author Topic: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel  (Read 29849 times)

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Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« on: November 07, 2012, 04:05:31 pm »
0

Guess what's No. 1? Again! With double the votes than No2!

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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2012, 04:21:16 pm »
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Yeah, I voted for it as my #1.

I also voted for 7 Wonders rather highly as a game I always enjoy playing; that's a strong plus for a game.
I mean, is a game still a good game if you never play it?

I voted for Merchants and Marauders in the "I wish I could play this more often" kind of sense, but it rarely hits the table due to its length and because it takes a long time to explain, so maybe it's not that good.

I have nothing against party games being on the list, Dixit was among my choices, party games to me are the ultimate form of games, because they're fun! And that's the main thing a game has to be. Of course people have different things they enjoy about a game, but I just love any kind of interaction.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2012, 04:26:17 pm »
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Dominion first, great !!! Wait, this is Prosperity ? Okay, all expansions are good though (alchemy a bit less...)
No Citadelles ?
And what's the point with 7 Wonders ? I played only once, with 5 other players, and didn't find this game so interesting because of the interaction with only two neighboors, and much more chaos than in Dominion IMO...
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 04:27:46 pm by ChocophileBenj »
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2012, 04:28:40 pm »
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Dominion first, great !!! Wait, this is Prosperity ? Okay, all expansions are good though (alchemy a bit less...)
No Citadelles ?
And what's the point with 7 Wonders ? I played only once, with 5 other players, and didn't find this game so interesting because of the interaction with only two neighboors, and much more chaos than in Dominion IMO...

play 7 wonders with 2 or 3 people. It's amazing
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2012, 04:32:59 pm »
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does 7 wonders work with 2 people? I've liked the game with a bunch of people, but never got it for me and my girlfriend because I thought it would suck with 2
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2012, 04:34:10 pm »
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does 7 wonders work with 2 people? I've liked the game with a bunch of people, but never got it for me and my girlfriend because I thought it would suck with 2

It's my favourite way to play it.

Essentially you set up a third player and you take turns drawing from the third players hand, and if you draw for the 3rd player you build a card for them and you, and you can use them for money or hiding cards your opponents need.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2012, 04:34:52 pm »
+3

If you don't feel like watching the video the top 10 is in the spoilers below

Top 10
10. Powergrid
09. Race for the Galaxy
08. Smallworld
07. Settlers of Catan
06. Carcasonne
05. Pandemic
04. Ticket To Ride
03. Agricola
02. 7 Wonders
01. Dominion
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2012, 05:17:18 pm »
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Dominion is a very underrated game in the french community. Glad to see it fairly rated here ! :D
7 Wonders, Dixit, Seasons and Werewolf are all potential candidates for my 2nd favourite boardgame.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2012, 05:31:23 pm »
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Dixit is very funny in my opinion :)
Yes, maybe 7wonders is better at 3 players than at more, as you directly interact with everybody. Unlike Dominion, better at 2, although people I play with mostly play at 4 or more...
And Werewolves looks more like a fun game, but still good in nights (or raining Week Ends d'Intégration)
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2012, 05:37:02 pm »
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So many werewolf fans that don't play forum mafia.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2012, 05:46:29 am »
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If you don't feel like watching the video the top 10 is in the spoilers below

Top 10
10. Powergrid
09. Race for the Galaxy
08. Smallworld
07. Settlers of Catan
06. Carcasonne
05. Pandemic
04. Ticket To Ride
03. Agricola
02. 7 Wonders
01. Dominion


I've "only" played six of these :( Also, I'm sad Stone Age didn't make the cut. Haggis is also a great card game but I can see how it wouldn't appeal to a lot of people...
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2012, 05:52:49 am »
0

If you don't feel like watching the video the top 10 is in the spoilers below

Top 10
10. Powergrid
09. Race for the Galaxy
08. Smallworld
07. Settlers of Catan
06. Carcasonne
05. Pandemic
04. Ticket To Ride
03. Agricola
02. 7 Wonders
01. Dominion


I've "only" played six of these :( Also, I'm sad Stone Age didn't make the cut. Haggis is also a great card game but I can see how it wouldn't appeal to a lot of people...

Same here, only 6.
However I disagree with 7 Wonders and Small World, really didnt get on with those.
Really want to play Agricola, but I cant afford to buy it only for my gaming group to not like it.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2012, 05:54:44 am »
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I've only played Agricola once. And I was the new player who took a lot of time when it was my turn. Mainly because everyone kept stealing my actions. It took almost an entire afternoon and evening to play. It was really fun, though.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2012, 06:04:44 am »
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I've only played Dominion and RtfG. I don't really like RtfG too much, maybe cuz I didn't play it with expansions, but it was strategically very limited, i think.  :-\ Was ok at best.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2012, 06:10:29 am »
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I played 7 of these : Dominion, Race for the Galaxy, Smallworld, 7 Wonders, Carcasonne, Settlers of Catan and Ticket to ride.

I hate RFTG, really don't understand this game.
Smallworld is fun, but not that great. However I like the replayability of the characters/powers, like kingdom cards in Dominion.
Carcasonne I played once, and found it unconvincing.
I quite like Catan and Ticket to ride, they are very straightforward and pleasant. But in ticket to ride, team play is so much better...
And finally I love 7 Wonders, especially with expansions.

So many werewolf fans that don't play forum mafia.

I play forum werewolf/mafia in french !  ;)
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2012, 06:18:33 am »
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I love SmallWorld, it scales very good too.

Compared to Risk, it has some improvements I like a lot:
- You can't get eliminated
- You can only get lucky on the last attempt (barring race powers)
- Because it is VP-based, not elimination-based, it tends to be less personal, you just look to optimize your point total
- The world is so small it forces interaction at a given point, you can't sit idly in Australia and wait for the right time to pounce
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2012, 06:40:08 am »
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Risk is pretty boring. Smallworld is fun. I've only played it once, and that was the underground version. It was pretty fun. Especially when I got some weird undying dwarves that just hammered and hammered and hammered on. I lost that one, though, since I couldn't score enough points. But I hammered pretty much everything into oblivion.

I haven't played Ticket to Ride, but I would really like to. Pandemic, I don't know anything about. Aside from the rumour that it's supposed to be good. I've got a friend who bough 7 Wonders so that we could try it, but he ended up playing it with other people than me. I really want to try it, though. The rest of the games, I have played, and I can say I think most of them are good. But I don't like Settlers at all.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2012, 07:51:25 am »
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The thing about 7 Wonders which makes it a great game for me is not that you'll get blown out of your chair the first time you play it, it's not that kind of game.

It's when I'm at a small convention and we have some people waiting around for other players/games to finish and we have about 30 mins to spend with 5 players or so, we can always bring out 7 Wonders. I've enjoyed it everytime I've played it.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2012, 08:08:56 am »
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The thing about 7 Wonders which makes it a great game for me is not that you'll get blown out of your chair the first time you play it, it's not that kind of game.

It's when I'm at a small convention and we have some people waiting around for other players/games to finish and we have about 30 mins to spend with 5 players or so, we can always bring out 7 Wonders. I've enjoyed it everytime I've played it.

Is it really that short of a game?

If you need something quick for multiple players that can be (completely!) taught in a couple of sentences, there's a cute game I saw back in April called (I think?) Geistes Blitz. It's basically Set (the card game) for children, but adults are not necessarily at an advantage!
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2012, 08:43:44 am »
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I'm pretty happy that I own 70% of those in the top 10.

And I've played 80% of them, though I have played Le Havre. From what I hear about its similarities to Agricola, perhaps I can say I've played 88% of the top 10.

Somehow never played Ticket to Ride.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2012, 08:51:24 am »
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I've played 100% of the top 10 and own 5, though not necessarily the 5 I want to own.

I'd rank them as follows:

01. Dominion
09. Race for the Galaxy
10. Powergrid
07. Settlers of Catan
05. Pandemic
04. Ticket To Ride
08. Small World
03. Agricola
02. 7 Wonders
06. Carcassonne

Nothing against Carcassone, it just bores me.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2012, 09:27:20 am »
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I own that whole list and like every game on it.  Makes me think I should see what 11-100 have in store. ;)
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2012, 10:00:55 am »
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I've played all besides Race for the Galaxy, and would rank them:

01. Dominion
02. Powergrid
03. 7 Wonders
04. Agricola
05. Pandemic

06. Carcassonne
07. Small World
08. Ticket To Ride
09. Settlers of Catan

I purposefully left a gap between 5 and 6 - the top 5 are games I enjoy a lot, and the bottom 4 are ones I will play, but not excitedly. I have played more games of Ticket to Ride and Settlers of Catan than I wish to admit, which has taken a lot of the fun out of them, especially considering they are gateway games with less strategy than the others.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2012, 10:39:42 am »
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Have played all of them except Power grid. So the 9 for me would be (I have other games I might place in the top 10 over these 10 but ranking these 10)

1. Dominion.
2. Race for the galaxy
3. Agricola
4. 7 Wonders
5. Small world
6. Ticket To Ride
7. Settlers of Catan
8. Pandemic
9. Carcassone

Carcassonne really rubs me the wrong way, too often especially if you add expansions its like well I need this tile, and well we all know what happens when you pull a tile out of that bag.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2012, 10:50:16 am »
+2

Carcassonne really rubs me the wrong way, too often especially if you add expansions its like well I need this tile, and well we all know what happens when you pull a tile out of that bag.

I love pulling the tile that I know someone else needs and purposefully placing it in one of the stupidest, most useless spots.

But I'm a jerk.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2012, 10:58:10 am »
+1

Carcassonne really rubs me the wrong way, too often especially if you add expansions its like well I need this tile, and well we all know what happens when you pull a tile out of that bag.

I love pulling the tile that I know someone else needs and purposefully placing it in one of the stupidest, most useless spots.

But I'm a jerk.

Thats not a jerky thing to do, thats the whole object of the game...

If you are not playing Carcassonne in a cut throat manner than you are playing it wrong!

For those people that don't rate it, was this just the base, because 'Inns and Cathedrals' and 'Traders and Builders' really add to the game, and make it much less likely to be decided by'who steals the opponents farm'
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2012, 11:02:09 am »
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Carcassonne really rubs me the wrong way, too often especially if you add expansions its like well I need this tile, and well we all know what happens when you pull a tile out of that bag.

I love pulling the tile that I know someone else needs and purposefully placing it in one of the stupidest, most useless spots.

But I'm a jerk.

I was playing three-player recently with Inns and Cathedrals. It was towards the end of the game and we'd done all we could to stop one player from completing her one massive, improbable city with a cathedral in the middle. She actually almost finished it, too, she just needed one more piece but it was a very uncommon type and we weren't even sure there were any more left. Still, I worked so hard to convince my other friend to place her piece to block the last space with an awkward road, even though that one piece seemed unlikely to come up.

Then of course when it came to my city-building friend's turn, she drew the one piece that would have let her finish her city for 40 or 50 points. She was so mad. ;D
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2012, 11:33:32 am »
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We (including my girlfriend) have
07. Settlers of Catan
06. Carcasonne
04. Ticket To Ride
02. 7 Wonders
01. Dominion

and played (additionally)
08. Smallworld

Like(d?) Settlers, but not played it in say 10years. But too much before that. 7 Wonders I'm not that deep into the strategy, but really like that it scales well in multiplayer.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2012, 12:22:37 pm »
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I've "only" played six of these :( Also, I'm sad Stone Age didn't make the cut.

I've never understood the appeal of worker placement games. They all seem the same to me, and none of them are interesting. Then again, it probably also has something to do with the fact I'm really bad at them.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2012, 12:33:47 pm »
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I believe for most games expansions are counted towards the base game.

I mailed Tom Vasel about Dominion as an example and whether votes for it would reflect votes for the entire family.
He replied that you could just vote for the base game and votes for expansions would be counted towards the base game.

I mean, I voted for Dominion because of the expansions, it really needs it and they add a lot.
Dominion - base only - would probably not rate as high.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2012, 02:01:10 pm »
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Thats not a jerky thing to do, thats the whole object of the game...

If you are not playing Carcassonne in a cut throat manner than you are playing it wrong!

Well, the proper cutthroat thing to do is to take the piece the other person wants and play it to maximize your own points. My lame joke was saying that I'd put it in the most worthless spot ever just to see the tears flow.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2012, 02:35:12 pm »
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Carcassonne, played 100% cutthroat and with a lot of expansions (so there are really many things you need to think about simultaneously) is a really good game. And it becomes big enough so that it's impossible to remember all the tiles. The problem is that you need some time and a lot of space when playing with 300+ tiles :)

From the rest of the list, I have Power Grid, I like it, but it rarely gets played as it takes whole evening and preferably 4-5 people. I played 7 Wonders a few times, interesting game, I may buy it at some point. Ticket to Ride is fun, I played it only once but definitely want more - not a strange thing I guess, I'm an orienteer and this game involves maps and route planning :) I also played Settlers of Catan a few times but it was not that much fun. I don't know anything about the other games.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2012, 02:42:08 pm »
+3

Half the people in my gaming group always want to play Fluxx!!!

I have just accidentally left it out in the rain...... And then accidently stamped on it
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2012, 02:43:08 pm »
+1

Half the people in my gaming group always want to play Fluxx!!!

I have just accidentally left it out in the rain...... And then accidently stamped on it

Problem: My gaming group wants to play Fluxx
Solution: Don't by Fluxx in the first place ;)
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2012, 03:28:51 pm »
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Me and my girlfriend are those guys in the gaming group that almost never say no to a game of Dominion.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2012, 03:31:59 pm »
0

Half the people in my gaming group always want to play Fluxx!!!

I have just accidentally left it out in the rain...... And then accidently stamped on it

Problem: My gaming group wants to play Fluxx
Solution: Don't by Fluxx in the first place ;)

I was young and nieve!! Well, maybe not young....
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2012, 03:45:53 pm »
+3

Me and my girlfriend are those guys in the gaming group that almost never say no to a game of Dominion.
ALMOST ? Why almost ?  :o
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2012, 03:47:31 pm »
0

Mainly because I like other games too. To be fair, it's mostly me who almost never say no.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2012, 03:48:30 pm »
0

I've been fortunate with my most recent gaming group that they will actually play Dominion... the last I tried flat-out refused (allegedly because they had played it to death a few years ago).  I never turn it down personally.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2012, 03:49:42 pm »
0

Glad to hear you got better gaming friends now. ;)
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2012, 04:39:49 pm »
0

Half the people in my gaming group always want to play Fluxx!!!

I have just accidentally left it out in the rain...... And then accidently stamped on it

Play Mao instead.

Or... 1000 Blank White Cards?
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2012, 04:42:16 pm »
0

Half the people in my gaming group always want to play Fluxx!!!

I have just accidentally left it out in the rain...... And then accidently stamped on it

Play Mao instead.

Or... 1000 Blank White Cards?

I prefer 1000 Blank Black Cards. The theme is much darker.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2012, 04:52:57 pm »
+7

01. Dominion
09. Race for the Galaxy
10. Powergrid
07. Settlers of Catan
05. Pandemic
04. Ticket To Ride
08. Small World
03. Agricola
02. 7 Wonders
06. Carcassonne
Dominion is my favorite game. When you make games, you can avoid things you don't like, and put in things you like, so in general I am a fan of my stuff, the good stuff anyway. So, nothing much to say there. For years my favorite game was Magic: The Gathering; I'd still put it second. Probably Nefarious is third.

Hunters & Gatherers is the fixed Carcassonne. It's very similar but the tiles are better balanced and scoring is simpler and it's slightly more fun otherwise. Unless there is a Carcassonne expansion you can't do without, that's that, stick with Hunters & Gatherers. I do like it, it would be in my top-10-not-mine games. I see it as in the same genre as Kingdom Builder - get a random result and make the best of it each turn - although Kingdom Builder is more strategic.

I like San Juan, which is either a precursor of Race or vice-versa. I would think simultaneously play would be an improvement, but the icons in Race weren't the move, and also to make the game feel less solitaire-y you really want to make good use of color. Limit cards to triggering on two actions, color the actions, then color the cards to match the actions they trigger on. So, if Produce is green and Explore is Blue, then a planet that does things when you Produce or Explore is green/blue. This way I could glance across the table and see actual information I care about about an opponent's position. This stops you from using color for goods and I think that's fine. Anyway I have made a bunch of games in the San Juan family, only simultaneous, it's a good genre.

Settlers is like a fixed Monopoly. Other people have argued this but it's true. It's not roll-and-move, but it's a mistake (that many trying to cash in have made) to look at Monopoly and just see that. You roll dice and see what you get; you get stuff when it isn't your turn; you have stuff that's yours that earns you income; you build up your stuff. And you trade. Anyway Settlers is a key game for the hobby but is way too political for me. I do not want to spend the evening saying, put the robber on those bricks, Tom is winning, look he's just about the get the longest road.

I haven't played Small World but I played Vinci, and my understanding is that Small World is a fixed version except not fixed enough for me, again for the politics issue. I liked Vinci but it needed the politics reduced. I don't know the specifics of Small World but one thing to try would be, at the end of the game, subtract the score of the player to your left from your score.

I haven't played 7 Wonders but I have made many drafting games. I was very sad that I didn't manage to get one published before 7 Wonders. I am still hoping to get one published before another one comes out. Fairy Tale wasn't so sad, I guess it was less related and didn't make as much of a splash.

Friedemann personally explained Power Grid to me, in case I could come up with a Dominion promo that tied into it. I didn't think of one (incidentally Jay insisted it would have to be a victory card, get it) and did Puerto Rico instead. That all worked out. I haven't played Power Grid though, or the other games on the list. I will always think of Pandemic as that game that lost every award ever to Dominion. Then when he redid it as Forbidden Island he got to lose everything to 7 Wonders.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 05:07:06 pm by Donald X. »
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2012, 04:57:15 pm »
0

Plus 1 for this

Quote
Anyway Settlers is a key game for the hobby but is way too political for me. I do not want to spend the evening saying, put the robber on those bricks, Tom is winning, look he's just about the get the longest road.

I was super excited about eclipse until I spent the last 3 turns being Tom, and instead of "put the robber on his bricks", it was "blow all of his stuff up"
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2012, 06:53:00 pm »
+1

Friedemann personally explained Power Grid to me, in case I could come up with a Dominion promo that tied into it. I didn't think of one (incidentally Jay insisted it would have to be a victory card, get it) and did Puerto Rico instead. That all worked out. I haven't played Power Grid though, or the other games on the list. I will always think of Pandemic as that game that lost every award ever to Dominion. Then when he redid it as Forbidden Island he got to lose everything to 7 Wonders.

Annnd...go.

What would be your top-10 not-by-yourself games?
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2012, 02:20:34 am »
0

I like Small World especially because it's not so political.

I mean, it's not NOT political, but you're just trying to optimize points for the most part. So you'll almost always take areas with just 1 guy or them instead of one with 3 guys which happens to belong to the guy you loathe.

Sure, when deciding between 2 areas with 1 guy, one from you and one from another, politics comes into play, but I've never found it to be a problem.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2012, 03:19:53 am »
+1

I mean, is a game still a good game if you never play it?

Tree. Forest. Noise.

As a young father, your answer should be affirmative.

I haven't played any of the three 18XX games I possess for more than a decade. Or Britannia. Or Age of Renaissance. And boy they are great games. My children aren't yet ready for that level of complexity or duration (while they do enjoy the occasional Power Grid, Ursuppe, or Through The Ages, so ... soon ...).
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2012, 04:10:15 am »
0

I like Small World especially because it's not so political.

I mean, it's not NOT political, but you're just trying to optimize points for the most part. So you'll almost always take areas with just 1 guy or them instead of one with 3 guys which happens to belong to the guy you loathe.

Sure, when deciding between 2 areas with 1 guy, one from you and one from another, politics comes into play, but I've never found it to be a problem.

Smallworld is the most political game in this list,whenever you decide which way to attack (especially after declining and starting over) is almost exclusively decided by who do I think is int eh best position to win. And this is very influenced by politics around the table.

On another note, I cannot understand (again) why not more people here like Agricola. Of the games on this list it is, together with Dominion and RftG, clearly the game with deepest strategy-elements. I cannot understand how people can rank Ticket to Ride, Smallworld or Settlers above it.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2012, 04:27:24 am »
0

I think Settlers is FAR more political than SmallWorld.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2012, 04:59:11 am »
0

Smallworld is not at all political, I think. I don't play it that way.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2012, 05:00:49 am »
0

Smallworld is not at all political, I think. I don't play it that way.

What happens when there are no empty spaces to attack?
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2012, 05:18:10 am »
0

You attack what's best for you. You could play Pillage and choose to discard a good card for one opponent and a bad for another. But in the end, you would rather help yourself than hurt another player.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2012, 06:15:41 am »
0

Dominion has a lot of ways to be political.

Just sit next to the player you want to hurt/help. ;D
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2012, 10:05:22 am »
0

I mean, is a game still a good game if you never play it?

Tree. Forest. Noise.

As a young father, your answer should be affirmative.

I haven't played any of the three 18XX games I possess for more than a decade. Or Britannia. Or Age of Renaissance. And boy they are great games. My children aren't yet ready for that level of complexity or duration (while they do enjoy the occasional Power Grid, Ursuppe, or Through The Ages, so ... soon ...).

Maybe a better way to put it is -- if you have the opportunity to play any game you want, and you pass up a chance to play X, can X possibly be a good game?
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2012, 10:14:33 am »
0

I mean, is a game still a good game if you never play it?

Tree. Forest. Noise.

As a young father, your answer should be affirmative.

I haven't played any of the three 18XX games I possess for more than a decade. Or Britannia. Or Age of Renaissance. And boy they are great games. My children aren't yet ready for that level of complexity or duration (while they do enjoy the occasional Power Grid, Ursuppe, or Through The Ages, so ... soon ...).

Maybe a better way to put it is -- if you have the opportunity to play any game you want, and you pass up a chance to play X, can X possibly be a good game?


Surely that depends on the other options and Time?

I play Dominion a lot with my group, its clearly the best game I own. that doesnt mean it always get played when we are deciding to play a game.

Also I may already have played a game (Settlers) and thought that was a good game, but then a better one comes along and I don't play that old one anymore. Its still good, just not as good as the new one
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2012, 10:15:00 am »
0

I mean, is a game still a good game if you never play it?

Tree. Forest. Noise.

As a young father, your answer should be affirmative.

I haven't played any of the three 18XX games I possess for more than a decade. Or Britannia. Or Age of Renaissance. And boy they are great games. My children aren't yet ready for that level of complexity or duration (while they do enjoy the occasional Power Grid, Ursuppe, or Through The Ages, so ... soon ...).

Maybe a better way to put it is -- if you have the opportunity to play any game you want, and you pass up a chance to play X, can X possibly be a good game?

By that definition you would very few "good" games.  I pass up the opportunity to play chess several times a day.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2012, 11:08:21 am »
0

I guess it depends on what you mean by political.

If you mean having the choice of interfering with someone else's plans and harming the leader, then Smallworld would definitely fit.

If you mean making decisions based on grudges and how nice someone was to you, then I would say that Smallworld can be political but is not typically so.

In Smallworld, you win mostly by serving your best needs. If Bob over there decimated your active race, it rarely is worth it to devote your resources to crushing Bob as revenge. You want to choose the race combination that'll make up for the pain and get those points back. If it so happens that you can maximize your points by attacking Bob, then great, but I've rarely seen revenge plots work in this game. All you end up doing is ensuring that you and the other guy don't win. You shrug it off and pull yourself back up to 10+ VP per turn.

When you sit down with a bunch of strangers, though, you should prepare for those in the former group. New players may not quite realize that there's no profit in revenge. There is profit, however, in smacking the hell out of the guy raking in 18 VP per turn and maximizing your own points.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2012, 11:31:21 am »
0

I just started a game of forum based Pandemic. So feel free to join.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5355.0

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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2012, 01:19:33 pm »
0

I mean, is a game still a good game if you never play it?

Tree. Forest. Noise.

As a young father, your answer should be affirmative.

I haven't played any of the three 18XX games I possess for more than a decade. Or Britannia. Or Age of Renaissance. And boy they are great games. My children aren't yet ready for that level of complexity or duration (while they do enjoy the occasional Power Grid, Ursuppe, or Through The Ages, so ... soon ...).

Maybe a better way to put it is -- if you have the opportunity to play any game you want, and you pass up a chance to play X, can X possibly be a good game?
By that definition you would very few "good" games.  I pass up the opportunity to play chess several times a day.
I think it depends on your definition of "good".

For me, a game is good if it hits the table, otherwise it's just taking up shelf space.
I try to keep a balanced game collection and rarely sell any games although I probably should, but that's just because I like collecting.

But that's not all, it's also about potential.
I too, rarely play chess anymore, but I would never refuse a game with my wife, dad or my brother in law, but alas, so little time.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2012, 04:21:59 pm »
0

Carcassonne really rubs me the wrong way, too often especially if you add expansions its like well I need this tile, and well we all know what happens when you pull a tile out of that bag.

I love pulling the tile that I know someone else needs and purposefully placing it in one of the stupidest, most useless spots.

But I'm a jerk.
Jerks win.

-rrenaud
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #60 on: November 10, 2012, 07:38:51 am »
+1

In order of preference:
03. Agricola 10/10
10. Power Grid 9/10
01. Dominion 9/10
02. 7 Wonders 8/10
09. Race for the Galaxy 8/10
08. Small World 7/10
07. Settlers of Catan 7/10
06. Carcassonne 6/10
04. Ticket To Ride 6/10
05. Pandemic 5/10

Also, I really don't understand the whole Small World not being political thing. Whenever I've played it it has always been super political. People were making alliances, backstabbing one another, agreeing to team up on someone who was a threat, not attacking a certain player because they were afraid of repercussions. Personally I'm not a big fan of that type of gameplay, otherwise Small World would probably be ranked higher.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #61 on: November 10, 2012, 09:59:35 am »
0

I played Small World once. It struck me as the kind of thing I'd rather play 2-player *anyway*. Whereas Settlers, arguably King of Politics, really doesn't work as 2-player.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2012, 02:11:52 pm »
0

I guess some groups can make any game political and some groups can even make Diplomacy non-political.  ;D
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2012, 02:53:02 pm »
+1

I guess some groups can make any game political and some groups can even make Diplomacy boring.  ;D

FTFY *grins*
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2012, 03:05:30 pm »
0

Not forum Diplomacy, that was great! Too bad a second installment hasn't yet started.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2012, 07:12:54 am »
+1

Settlers, arguably King of Politics,

*ahem*

Quote from: Davio
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2012, 09:19:25 am »
0

Oh, right, that game.

The first time I played it was in high school with mostly people from upper years who I didn't really know and two of whom I had confused with each other. x.x
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2012, 09:29:24 am »
+1

Not forum Diplomacy, that was great! Too bad a second installment hasn't yet started.
Y'all should try this game out.  It's still forming, 4 spots left.  New people encouraged; I was completely new to this game when I played f.DS's first installment of Diplomacy.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #68 on: November 13, 2012, 12:42:45 pm »
0

I've played all of the top 10.  In order of preference, with gaps where there's a big gap:

1. Dominon (of course)

2. Race for the Galaxy (definitely needs the first two expansions to come into its own, BoW is good but non-essential)
3. Small World (I thought Vinci was a brilliant idea, with gamebreaking flaws, and SW fixed every single one of them)
4. Agricola (these three are very close; Le Havre would beat out RFTG though)

5. 7 Wonders

6. Power Grid (as much as I prefer heavier games with maps, and Power Grid fits the bill at least on this list, something about having to calculate auctions down to the dollar doesn't quite do it for me as much)
7. Ticket to Ride (I actually like the Europe map best FWIW)
8. Settlers of Catan (yes it is fixed Monopoly, and there's nothing wrong with that)

9. Pandemic (co-ops aren't my thing)

10. Carcassone (I don't know why I hate this game, but I do)

I'll happily play the top 5 almost any time, and I'll agree to the top 8 most of the time.

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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2012, 04:12:02 pm »
0

I just got to try Carcassone this weekend. It seems interesting, except that I really couldn't get a feeling for strategy early - especially WRT farmers.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2012, 06:32:09 pm »
+4

Farmers are Carcassonne's Big Money ;)

This summer I played Carcassonne (2-player, base game + Inns and Cathedrals - first expansion, considered by many rather a fix of problems the base game has, it's very common to suggest this expansion straight away for people learning the game) really a lot. I think something like 300-400 games, all against my girfriend, we both were new to the game. When one of us found a new trick, the other looked for a way to go around it, and so on. When recently I started to learn Dominion, I noticed similarities to how we learned Carcassonne.

First you just have fun laying tiles so they fit together. Meeples go on the table, score, come back. A light family game. If you play just to have a bit of fun, you stay at this level. But if you like competing, you look for efficient ways to the win. After a few games a big farm will be scored. Something like 10 cities, singlehandedly deciding the win. Then you see that nearly every game has a high scoring farm. If you place tiles semirandomly, with no big plan, it tends to go this way. So you discover "the broken strategy". Farmer wars begin - the game is a contest to claim the big farm with a side activity of trying to score some points when this doesn't hurt the farm assault. But those points are only a tiebreaker in case the farm is claimed by both players.

You can stop there. Carcassonne becomes a random game with one dominant strategy for you. Or you can find other possibilities. Often ignored and placed anywhere on the side road tiles can be good farm dividers keeping your farming opponent in check. If a chance comes, a big city, long road or a few cloisters adjacent to each other can score big points too. Suddenly farms are important, but the big farm no longer is the main game decider.

And probably there are more layers above that. I guess it takes way more games to truly master this game. But, as after 3 months of playing small Carcassonne set I bought Big Box + some extras, we moved to playing Mega-Carc, a brain burner with over 200 tiles, over 10 ways to score, 3 very different ways to kill your opponent's meeples and a few other twists, including new ways both to divide and to connect farms. This is a really hard game, mostly because there are very many things going on and you have to watch out for everything while managing 12-15 meeples with various properties and additional pieces you are given. The only downside of this game is that it takes more time - even experienced, quick players need an hour or more to complete it. That's why I feel Carcassonne and Dominion fit to each other - both are big game systems with many possibilities so it's likely someone will have fun playing both, but one is a long game and the other short, so you can choose depending on time you have.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #71 on: November 13, 2012, 08:33:49 pm »
0

As people are weighing in lists, here's mine.

03. Agricola (Have not played, but want to)

09. Race for the Galaxy (Played once, did not enjoy, did not seem exciting enough to want to play again)
07. Settlers of Catan (It's the Monopoly of Eurogames. It was a real breakaway game in terms of re-inventing the hobby, but it's very political, long, and really not all that exciting. A game I'll try to avoid playing most of the time.)
06. Carcasonne (Carcassone is a good game, just not one I enjoy playing)
04. Ticket To Ride (It's quick and it's okay, but I've never been very enthralled by it.)
08. Smallworld (I don't mind Smallword. It's a bit of fun, but not a favourite)

(Gap)

10. Powergrid (Generally fun, tight, and has some extremely well designed mechanics (in particular a behind player always has a chance make this a good game. Not good with beginners, but a game I love to play with more experienced gamers.)
02. 7 Wonders (In all honesty, I don't think there's a huge amount of strategic depth to 7 Wonders, but it offers good variety and crucially, scales wonderfully and plays quickly, making it a favourite in my local group.)
(Small Gap)
05. Pandemic (My favourite Co-op. Really needs the expansion to shine, but is fun on it's own nevertheless.)
01. Dominion (My favourite game. Like Pandemic, it needs expansions (more than one!), but with them it's a pretty much endlessly replayable game.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2012, 02:13:07 am »
+3

Funnily enough, I played Agricola for the first time yesterday.

It wasn't really the first time, but I only played the simpler family version with my wife once so that doesn't count.

What struck me most about it, was how simple it actually was. I always thought: "It's a heavy euro, so it must be difficult." But it really wasn't! You start with 7 Worker cards and 7 Small investment cards and they tend to overwhelm you at first. A good idea is to sort them in a logical order (cost or points) so you have an idea which cards might be good at the start and which might be good in the end.

Then you start playing and you take whatever the game gives you. In the game we played yesterday, one player played an early card which meant we had to give him 1 Food whenever we used the "Get Grain" action. So instead of getting grain, I focused early on sheep for food. Pretty soon, I had the furnace and was well on my way. I played a worker which allowed me to put sheep, cattle and pigs together in the same area, which was a big bonus for me. I also played a small investment which allowed me to choose the plow action and get two plowed fields instead of one.

So what I liked about this game is that the cards can steer you in a direction, but it's still up to you to make the most of them, kind of like the Leaders in 7 Wonders. If you want to ignore them, go ahead, but often you can't really do so.

We also tend to have AP prone players, but yesterday it wasn't a big deal, which surprised me, because of the sheer number of actions. Sure, some turns took longer than others, but it was well within limits and we all had fun.

In the end I got 2nd after the guy who played it the most, so I was happy with my strategy and result.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2012, 08:23:11 am »
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Come on guys, you have to admit that Monopoly is a pretty good game. Sure, Settlers might be somewhat better, but I wouldn't say it fixes Monopoly. Some people like games that take 3 or 4.....or 40 hours.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2012, 08:47:34 am »
+1

Why Monopoly is rubbish (and it is genuinely bad in my opinion):

1) Too long. Games that are too long kill the evening (for my group at least) as everyone feels drained afterwards and doesn't want to play any more. It's so long that people usually give up or wander off before it ends (this is true of many classic games actually).
2) Player elimination. This is not inherently bad in games, but in a long game like monopoly it is bad because people will be sitting around out of the game for ages. Not fun. Because of this, a lot of people don't like to be the one that eliminates someone, so ...(see next point)
3) Players have to be restrained from making all kinds of crazy deals (eg rent-free landing on property in return for letting them off the mayfair rent this time), often as they don't want to elimate someone, and they can make the descend into unending chaos.
4) Cash. Change and all that jazz gets really fiddely. The cash is fun, but never having enough change is annoying.
5) Player blocking. If you need a 3rd property to finish a set so that you can build on it and that person simply refuses to sell it to you ... you're stuffed. You could try and barter with other people to get something that guy wants, yeah, but blocking behaviour is common and really craps the game up.
6) First player advantage can be strong. First players round the board can snap up the properties. Last player in a larger game could land on owned properties a lot. In one game I went twice round the board without landing on single buyable property.
7) It gets needlessly complicated by mass-mortgaging of properties.
8 ) Not the game's fault, but so many people don't play the auction rule (any unsold property landed on has to be bought or auctioned)

There's more, but whatever.

It's a fun beginning and scooting round collecting properties is enjoyable, as well as a bit of trade and haggling, but after that it starts to go downhill and the game ends up being decided on really stand-out unlucky moments (like landing on the one property that has a hotel). Eesh. I don't mind playing it, but now that I have so many better games I would only play this if someone really was desperate.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 08:53:12 am by Octo »
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Davio

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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #75 on: November 15, 2012, 09:44:37 am »
0

I think I've mentioned this at least a couple of times on the forum, but:

I once played a 5p 10 hour session of Monopoly Stock Exchange edition (in Dutch: Beurseditie) through the night and there was at that point only one player out of the game (probably the smartest one). We just gave up at that point.

When it's played now, we just set a certain time limit.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #76 on: November 15, 2012, 12:19:04 pm »
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My view of this top ten:

Haven't played:
Power Grid (but want to try it sometime, not super high on my wish list)
Carcasonne (same)

8 5-6/10 - Settlers -  I'll play this one no problem.  It is fun enough.  The good thing is that it is well known enough that many non board game people own it and are willing to try.  These are the type of people I will introduce Agricola and Puerto Rico to.

7) 6/10 - Small World - Only played once but I think I get it enough to rate it.  Fun enough but I wouldn't choose to play it over many other games

6) 7/10 - Ticket to Ride - Pretty fun that is easy to play with pretty much any group.  If I have people that are into other games though this gets passed up.

5) 7/10 - Pandemic - Really close with TTR.  Great for people that don't like competition

4) 7/10 - Seven Wonders - Not really sure.  This could be between TTR and SW.  It has worked great and it has fallen flat.  Haven't played enough to really say.  But a very strong plus is that it scales well up to 7, is quick and there is little down time with the simultaneous drawing

3) 8/10 - Race for the galaxy - Have played a shit ton against Keldon's ai.  Like Dominion I think it shines with expansions (but don't need BOW).  Base game is still great though.

2) 9.5/10 Agricola:  This and Dominion are really close, really really close.  Luckily they are apples and oranges and there is room for both!  I've introduced non gamer friends to Agricola and it works fine.  It's not too heavy for non gamers that are smart to get into.  I think the farming thing has worked great to help this with my pals.  They think it is fun and probably less nerdy than many other games.  With the cards replay-ability is crazy.  I haven't even been tempted to buy the expansion yet.

1) 9.5/10 Dominion:  I'll give this the nod over Agricola just because it is easier to get to the table and we are on a Dominion forum.  Easy to explain how to play, but with depth.  I'd probably be bored with just the base set though, but with all expansions replay-ability is amazing as we all know.  I've hooked many, many people on this game.  Most of which were not into the board game scene outside of classics and things like Taboo.

Top games not on the list

1) 9.5/10 Mage Knight the Board game - Freaking love, love love this game.  Luckily the solo scenario option is great so I can play this all the time.  I basically keep a game of this going almost all the time and play over days if I don't have a solid chunk of time.  Want to play more with people but this game could easily become my long term #1. 

2) 9/10 - The Resistance -  This IS my go to game for a big group.  It usually takes one game for people to get that you actually have to vote no on missions early, but even those games are full of great tension. 

3) 9/10 Puerto Rico - Classic and easy for people to get into.  I haven't played it as much as some of my other games though.  But it has always been a hit.

4) 9/10 Battlestar Galactica -  Only issue with this is that you need a good group.  If people are not into it the game is a bit much for the time.  It is only so fun if people aren't into the meta game trying to figure out who cylons are.  I'd probably rate it like a 6 then.  But when the group is good this game provides probably the most in terms of pure fun factor of the games I'm into.


Loved but need more plays


Twilight Struggle - My wife resists this, but I shall persist and try and see if we can get into it.  Only played 2 or 3 times
Dominant Species - Only played once, but it seemed right up my ally.  The play time makes it hard to get it to the table.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #77 on: November 16, 2012, 08:46:27 am »
0

Regarding Agricola:

I've not played that but obviously it has pretty legendary status. I'm trying to decide whether to get it for my gaming group, but I wonder if people who've played it could help me out:

Is it a long game in your experience? (bgg says 120 mins, but what's your take) And does that time go down significantly when people are familiar with it?

Is it good with 5 players?

I've heard there's a lot to do with the cards and that there's a massive stack of them. Does this take quite a few plays to get a feel for what's in there or is knowing that stuff not very important? Does the game take a good few play to learn in general? (say compared to settlers)

People are saying really good things about Ora et Labora which is in the same vein. Anyone played both and care to comment?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #78 on: November 16, 2012, 09:13:46 am »
0

As far as I'm concerned, Le Havre and Ora et Labora are just as good as Agricola. I'm surprised in that respect that Agricola has reached the top 10 games list since they are all good (but not ultra fantastic) and the votes could have been split between them.

Agricola can take a long time. I would set aside 3 hours instead of 2 hours until your play group can decide its own timing. Agricola is fine with 5 players but the game will take longer. The biggest asset and biggest problem with Agricola are the cards that provide the variation from game to game. You get all 14 cards at the start of the game and there is too much to take in for casual players. Absolute beginners can play a game without the cards but that won't satisfy the experienced players.

Le Havre has a gentler introductory curve but perhaps slightly less feel and can slow down too much with 5 players. I've only played Ora et Labora once and I saw it as a continued development of the agricola game system. It might be a better game but I'm sure many people with the other two games are wondering whether they need to buy that as well.

For me, Acquire is the game missing from the top 10 list. I'm sure it has been a mainstay of gaming groups for many years and is still good value today.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 09:14:56 am by DG »
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #79 on: November 16, 2012, 09:36:41 am »
0

One of the great things about Agricola, as a way to introduce gamers to the hobby, is that you're building something of your own.  I think this is part of why Dominion succeeds too.  Of course Agricola is not as gateway as Dominion, but it's surprisingly accessible.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #80 on: November 16, 2012, 10:01:45 am »
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The cards are overwhelming, but they weren't an issue for us.

For me personally, sorting the cards really helped.
I had two cards which were only active on turn 12, so I put them at the back.
The cards which were useful early on I put in the front.
Then I had some cards which provided food on turn 10-14 for instance, so I put that somewhere in the middle.

Minor investment cards list a required number of craftmanship in the top left, so you can sort by that or by required resources.

If you sort your cards, you get more of an idea about the flow of the game.

I think the hardest thing is agriculture: You have to plow first (1 Action), then get the grain/vegetables (1 Action) and you have to sow it (1 Action), so at the start it's 3 actions to go from plowing to sowing. And then you can only harvest during harvest time. It just seems like a lot of work for some food and if you're not an experienced player you may think this is a reason to skip it entirely.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2012, 06:44:43 am »
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Snip

For me, Acquire is the game missing from the top 10 list. I'm sure it has been a mainstay of gaming groups for many years and is still good value today.

Do you play the Special Powers variant?  It really is a spectacular game with those 5 extra tiles for everybody.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #82 on: November 20, 2012, 10:00:20 am »
0

Snip

For me, Acquire is the game missing from the top 10 list. I'm sure it has been a mainstay of gaming groups for many years and is still good value today.

Do you play the Special Powers variant?  It really is a spectacular game with those 5 extra tiles for everybody.

What is that?
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #83 on: November 20, 2012, 12:21:38 pm »
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Why Monopoly is rubbish (and it is genuinely bad in my opinion):

1) Too long. Games that are too long kill the evening (for my group at least) as everyone feels drained afterwards and doesn't want to play any more. It's so long that people usually give up or wander off before it ends (this is true of many classic games actually).

If you're curious, there is a thread where I "defended" Monopoly.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2244

Though, really it's not so much defending as me saying, "It's not as bad as most serious gamers say it is." Although, most of your points aren't really things that could be defended. The time constraint is one, though. A game shouldn't take several hours. Granted, I haven't played with more than 4 players in a very long time. I can concede that if a group has 7 or 8 players, it's going to be a long game (and first-player advantage would be huge).

I have to disagree with your point 5 that it's a bad thing that someone could be blocked from building houses. I think this is one of the few tactically sound things you can do in Monopoly. With your movement dictated solely by luck, you pretty much can hinder other players through house-blocking, house-building, or trade-screwing.

I can't really say that Monopoly is a great game, but I can say that with all its flaws, game length generally isn't one of them.
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Davio

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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #84 on: November 20, 2012, 12:54:44 pm »
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If you're going to talk about Monopoly, you have to look at it in the time frame it was in.

In those days, you did have an entire evening or weekend to spend doing all sorts of things.
Nowadays, life is so stressed that you often don't have time for longer games.
And there weren't any other good games. I mean, you could play Scrabble or Rummikub, but it was thinly spread.

It's so easy to just hate on Monopoly when you start discovering real good games, but I've had a lot of fun with it playing with my family when I was younger.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #85 on: November 20, 2012, 12:57:48 pm »
+1

Snip

For me, Acquire is the game missing from the top 10 list. I'm sure it has been a mainstay of gaming groups for many years and is still good value today.

Do you play the Special Powers variant?  It really is a spectacular game with those 5 extra tiles for everybody.

What is that?

The version published by Avalon Hill in 1995 contained some additional Special Powers "tiles" (more like very small cards made from thick cardboard - they do not get played on the board like other true tiles, so I'll substitute the word "card" for the rest of this discussion).  There were 5 different cards, and every player got a copy of each one at the beginning of the game.  Each of these "cards" could be used once, so upon using a card, it had to be surrendered, leaving you with only those cards you had not used.  Each card gave you a special power to use immediately.  Several of the cards (maybe all of them) had a requirement related to the portion your turn at which it could be played - if you went past the applicable point in that turn, you could not use that card.  This isn't a big deal, as the timing constraints all make sense and keep the cards from breaking the game, but you did have to familiarize yourself with said constraints.  You could only play one card per turn.

I've looked on BGG for the rules of that version with no success, and my copy is in storage, so I'm working from memory here:

A) One card (played at the end of your turn?) allowed you to draw 6 tiles at the end of your turn, bringing your total to 11 instead of 6.  You did not draw tiles at the end of subsequent turns until your total was again <6.
B) One card (played before you bought stock?) allowed you to buy up to 5 shares of stock instead of the usual limit of 3 shares.
C) One card (played before you bought stock?) allowed you to acquire up to 3 shares of stock free of charge
D) One card (played before you placed your first tile?) allowed you to place 4 tiles on a turn instead of one (this was obviously the "mega-turn" enabler, as you could start-merge-start-merge in one turn). All effects of tile #1 had to be resolved before placing tile 2, and so on.
E) One card (played before you bought stock?) allowed you to trade 2 (matched, obviously) shares of an existing chain for 1 share of any other existing chain.  You could do this up to 3 times with any source pair traded for any end result share (e.g., 2 Luxor for 1 Continental, then 2 Worldwide for 1 Continental, then 2 Imperial for 1 American).  Play of this card did not invalidate your buy phase, so you could then buy stock, up to the normal limit of 3 shares.

I feel these cards really made the game better - allowed for come-from-behind possibilites, kept you in the game if you were out of money (Card C), let you rush a chain if you were behind in ownership (and were willing to pay the price) and in general made the game a lot more interesting, and fun.  Acquire is really one of my favorites.  Unfortunately, it really suffers 2p; it needs 3 minimum, and 4 is better.

Edited for this note: This version of the game was vastly inferior in several ways.  The board was flat cardboard instead of the more compact plastic version with the raised frames that hold the smaller plastic tiles in place, and the board takes up almost double the space on a table.  The true "tiles" (A-1, A-2, etc.) are printed on thick cardstock, and when played just sit on the board. They can become dislodged if the table is jarred, or when playing outside in the wind.  Finally, and most tragically, the colors of red used for shares of the two red chains (Imperial and Tower?) were virtually indistinguishable.  It was so bad that I took a copy of one card for each of the 7 chains to a color copier and altered the colors (the reds pretty drastically).  I then printed all new shares on heavier paper, laminated all the sheets, and cut out the 175 shares.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 01:19:12 pm by SwitchedFromStarcraft »
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #86 on: November 20, 2012, 01:30:55 pm »
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I do have that version but we have never played with the special powers. My friends like Acquire as a staple game that's always simple to get on the table and play quickly.
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #87 on: November 20, 2012, 01:48:47 pm »
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This edition?

BGG talks about it a bit and shares your disdain for the production quality.  This and this are the special powers?
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #88 on: November 20, 2012, 03:54:20 pm »
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This edition?

BGG talks about it a bit and shares your disdain for the production quality.  This and this are the special powers?
Yes, and yes, and yes, though I think the titles on the cards don't match what I recall, but the concepts are correct.  All you need now is a copy of the rules, to determine precisely what times the cards are playable.

@DG - You may want to encourage just giving the cards a try, particularly if your group already knows the game well.  It's almost like getting a new game (expansion isn't quite the right word, but isn't far off the mark, conceptually.)
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #89 on: November 21, 2012, 05:44:25 am »
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And there weren't any other good games. I mean, you could play Scrabble or Rummikub, but it was thinly spread.

For a sufficiently narrow definition of "there". I mean, how old have you been when Settlers (for instance) was released? Are you any older than Cosmic Encounter?

As an aside, I once played a Scrabble variant with the same set of letters for everyone, placed in the middle of the table (not really, since that space is taken by the board), nick the two-minutes hourglass form Boggle, have everyone take their score based on their solution, and lay the most successful solution on the board. That was quite enjoyable.

EDIT Re-reading your post I gather you are not referring to personal experience but the time frame Monopoly was released. Yes, boardgames were really in their infancy back then. Chess and Backgammon would never gain the popularity they enjoy if they were introduced today, with all the competition around.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 06:57:23 am by ipofanes »
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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #90 on: November 21, 2012, 07:17:00 am »
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And there weren't any other good games. I mean, you could play Scrabble or Rummikub, but it was thinly spread.

For a sufficiently narrow definition of "there". I mean, how old have you been when Settlers (for instance) was released? Are you any older than Cosmic Encounter?

As an aside, I once played a Scrabble variant with the same set of letters for everyone, placed in the middle of the table (not really, since that space is taken by the board), nick the two-minutes hourglass form Boggle, have everyone take their score based on their solution, and lay the most successful solution on the board. That was quite enjoyable.

EDIT Re-reading your post I gather you are not referring to personal experience but the time frame Monopoly was released. Yes, boardgames were really in their infancy back then. Chess and Backgammon would never gain the popularity they enjoy if they were introduced today, with all the competition around.
Well, I was referring to my own time frame.

Settlers is from '95 I believe, but it was introduced to us a couple of years later. I think I played it when I was 14 in '99.
Hey, we didn't have no internet! Games didn't spread like diseases like they do now and the market wasn't filled with so much to choose from.

If you would go to a toy store in the 90's/early 00's (no game stores yet) you could buy Monopoly, Risk, Scrabble, Rummikub, Yahtzee, Clue and that was about it. I'm not saying that there weren't any good games already published, but me and my family were part of the broad audience back then. We liked playing games, but had no clue what was out there other than in stores.

In Holland I guess it took a while for games to lift off and close the gap to big brother Germany. Settlers was the game that initiated this move towards more serious gaming in the Netherlands. Nowadays we are very proud to have White Goblin Games as a publisher with some licenses, but also successful original releases. 999 Games is a big publisher in the Netherlands which brings a lot of popular foreign games to our Market. Not only Settlers and Carcassonne, but also Dominion, The Resistance et al.

So growing up in the 90's it was mostly Monopoly-style games for us. In fact, almost everything was "roll-and-move" like Life and some others. When we played Settlers it was a big turnaround for us. "We roll a die and don't move, but get resources instead?" We all loved it immediately and it has opened the door to a lot of other very exciting games.
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ipofanes

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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #91 on: November 21, 2012, 07:43:45 am »
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For a sufficiently narrow definition of "there". I mean, how old have you been when Settlers (for instance) was released? Are you any older than Cosmic Encounter?

ok, given that you would have to cater specifically for the Dutch-speaking market maybe the range of products was slim. I, for one, was delighted when I saw a copy of Agricola in a toy shop in a smallish Dutch town. But I'd say it depends on perspective, and more on age than cohort. If you'd been brought up in the 1980's, it would be surprising if you'd been playing Monopoly for want of anything else until the age of 22. The narrower range of products tailored to the local language, together with the proficiency of Dutch people with foreign languages, especially English, would have led any half-serious gamer to trying and ultimately enjoying imported games.

but me and my family were part of the broad audience back then.

Yes, I think the trick is how to get to be a "half-serious" gamer, and chances of first contact to awesomeness are greater than 20 years ago. I maintain that once you got there, you had a fair chance of having fun with games even in the 1980s. (But you had to be willing to spend more time. Titan, Britannia, the 18xxs were all around back then but they tax your time.)

I must admit that I can't think of any Dutch game designer before Joris Wiersinga (if I am not mistaken, Stratego is Flemish).

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Kuildeous

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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #92 on: November 21, 2012, 08:44:12 am »
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Also in the 80s, there wasn't as much knowledge of alternate games. Sure, I played on the BBSes, but I didn't join the right circles to learn about other board games.

My introduction to RPGs helped me out there. It stoked my interest in games that weren't Monopoly, Trouble, or Life. They were still extremely luck-based (Dungeon, Saga, and Dragonlance, to name a few), but they at least provided more choices. They prepared me for a world outside of what mundanes consider normal board games. In the 90s, I did learn of Settlers of Catan, Hacker, and Lunch Money. By then I had hooked up with a network of friends who got into RPGs and board games. I had a friend who worked for Mayfair, so that really broadened my horizons. And now the internet has really allowed us to learn more about these games and even try them out before buying them.  In the 80s, if you weren't sure about a game, you usually had to sacrifice the money because nobody in your circle of friends knew anything about it.

So, yeah, some people grew up with Monopoly because they had no idea of the variety of games out there. You had to have a particularly nerdy friend to introduce that world to you (I sadly never played Titan or Cosmic Encounter in the 80s).
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Octo

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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #93 on: November 21, 2012, 08:46:57 am »
+1

@Kuildeous:

Interesting points in that post you linked.

To elaborate on the blocking: I like the barter/trade element of the game and of course refusal must be an option. However, I think the problem stems from having so few options sometimes - you have 2 pinks and 1 blue, maybe a station too, and the guy with the last pink is just not trading it with you. You really need the pink because getting both of the blues is usually not going to happen, but you only have one real way of getting it in a timely fashion - from the other guy. It's the lack of alternative routes the causes the block I suppose, rather than that player refusal to trade.

The collection of money on Free Parking etc is something I was thinking of mentioning, just in terms of there's always house rules that people want to play with varying levels of silliness, but ran out of steam. I think these combine with the length thing for me and makes me want to clarify my position in so much as saying that while the game may or may not be a dud, I find the experience of playing is pretty much always a dud. Regardless of why it's so long (house rules, hesitant to eliminate etc.) is just always is - it's never been 90 mins for me, though I'm sure it could be - and combine this with frustrating blocking, occasional house-rule spats and everything-is-negotiable chaos and I find that I never want to play Monopoly. These may not actually be the fault of the rules as such, but I still rarely enjoy the experience of playing monopoly. I feel the same way about football for example - it's a fun game to play really, but unless it's really really casual among friends there's often an unnecessary amount of argy-bargy, fouling and generally macho nonsense & aggression that sucks the fun out of it for me, particularly if you play with strangers. Some people might dig that, but I don't, and it's not the fault of the rules.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 08:48:31 am by Octo »
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ipofanes

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Re: Top 100 Games: People's Choice @ Tom Vasel
« Reply #94 on: November 21, 2012, 09:54:50 am »
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So, yeah, some people grew up with Monopoly because they had no idea of the variety of games out there. You had to have a particularly nerdy friend to introduce that world to you (I sadly never played Titan or Cosmic Encounter in the 80s).

Maybe I was the particular nerd myself  :D

I remember meeting with school friends weekly for board games. Some day I must have found out about the brilliant games shop "Das Spiel" ran by Claus Voigt in the 1980s in Hamburg. Maybe I noticed it while being a tourist in Hamburg. This opened quite a world for me. Railway Rivals maps, Cosmic Encounter, Quirks ...

Oh, and living not too far from Essen helped too. [hipster]I went to Essen before they changed the venue from the Volkshochschule (at the center of http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.454107&lon=7.020007&zoom=18&layers=M) to the Gruga (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.428735&lon=6.994773&zoom=18&layers=M).[/hipster]
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