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Author Topic: An Attempt at Theme Discussion  (Read 12650 times)

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Octo

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2012, 03:42:03 pm »
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@DXV:

In my opinion, letting gameplay trump flavour is one the things that makes Dominion stand out as a superior game, so thanks for taking it down that road.

Now, not to derail the topic but:
Quote
Part of the reason I'm so aware of the poor theme in Dominion is because Magic does it so damn well.
What?

The premise of Magic is utterly devoid of theme, it's one of the most abstract games out there in my opinion, and that's how it manages to leave design space for a such vast library of cards. Basically anything goes in terms of flavour because the foundation is so so simple. The card names, mechanics and artwork link up nicely quite often sure, but in terms of imaging yourself as something Magic really doesn't cut it. The mix of sizes, scope, physicality and abstract concepts mean you cannot place it anywhere nor tie it to anything

I think this abstract nature is what given Magic is strength, as well as - like Dominion - allowing gameplay to trump flavour, because there's no narrative, universe rules or even reality to adhere to.
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werothegreat

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2012, 04:03:09 pm »
+2

... there's no narrative, universe rules or even reality to adhere to.

Action - $3.14

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2012, 04:05:41 pm »
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I really don't like, but also don't mind these discussions. Dominion is a Eurogame and not an Ameritrash game. It has per definition limited theme. If you want more theme, re-theme it for yourself or play another game.

I'm not sure this distinction makes any sense to me, as presented by BGG at least. 
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Taco Lobster

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2012, 04:13:04 pm »
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*shrug*  I pointed out several instances where Magic attempts to ground its mechanics in its art/concepts.  There's a lot of work done to have the mechanics match the art, the set, the themes of the block, etc.  Maybe we're talking about two different things.
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Qvist

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2012, 04:18:03 pm »
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I really don't like, but also don't mind these discussions. Dominion is a Eurogame and not an Ameritrash game. It has per definition limited theme. If you want more theme, re-theme it for yourself or play another game.

I'm not sure this distinction makes any sense to me, as presented by BGG at least.

Why?

EurogameAmeritrash
LuckFew luck elementsHighly luck-based
ConflictIndirect/UntargetedDirect/Targeted
Game DesignMechanics more important than themeTheme and Storytelling dictates Mechanics
ThemeMedieval/EconomicFantasy/SciFi
Componentse.g. Wooden Cubese.g. Plastic Miniatures

Better? ... and yeah I know, that it's not that easy, but it's just a quick overview.

eHalcyon

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2012, 04:48:43 pm »
+1

But, what I do mind, is when a theme is sort of inconsistent. Dominion is mostly consistent in theme. But there are a few exceptions like Wandering Minstrel as name for a village. To answer Davio's question 3: +2 Actions means more workers, DXV said that somewhere. So I'm fine with any place which has at least a group of people, so I'm fine with Festival too. But "Wandering Minstrel" is ridiculous.

Wandering Minstrel plays sweet, sweet music, leading your peoples to, erm, produce more workers.
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theory

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2012, 05:13:44 pm »
0

I really don't like, but also don't mind these discussions. Dominion is a Eurogame and not an Ameritrash game. It has per definition limited theme. If you want more theme, re-theme it for yourself or play another game.

I'm not sure this distinction makes any sense to me, as presented by BGG at least.

Why?

EurogameAmeritrash
LuckFew luck elementsHighly luck-based
ConflictIndirect/UntargetedDirect/Targeted
Game DesignMechanics more important than themeTheme and Storytelling dictates Mechanics
ThemeMedieval/EconomicFantasy/SciFi
Componentse.g. Wooden Cubese.g. Plastic Miniatures

Better? ... and yeah I know, that it's not that easy, but it's just a quick overview.

It's a little misleading to talk about individual components of Eurogames/Ameritrash, since you can obviously have Eurogames with direct conflict and Ameritrash with indirect conflict, and so on.  A better way to look at it (and hinted at by DXV) is that every game design must prioritize something.  Eurogames choose elegance.  Ameritrash chooses drama.  Wargames choose realism.
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Qvist

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2012, 05:29:13 pm »
+1

I really don't like, but also don't mind these discussions. Dominion is a Eurogame and not an Ameritrash game. It has per definition limited theme. If you want more theme, re-theme it for yourself or play another game.

I'm not sure this distinction makes any sense to me, as presented by BGG at least.

Why?

EurogameAmeritrash
LuckFew luck elementsHighly luck-based
ConflictIndirect/UntargetedDirect/Targeted
Game DesignMechanics more important than themeTheme and Storytelling dictates Mechanics
ThemeMedieval/EconomicFantasy/SciFi
Componentse.g. Wooden Cubese.g. Plastic Miniatures

Better? ... and yeah I know, that it's not that easy, but it's just a quick overview.

It's a little misleading to talk about individual components of Eurogames/Ameritrash, since you can obviously have Eurogames with direct conflict and Ameritrash with indirect conflict, and so on.  A better way to look at it (and hinted at by DXV) is that every game design must prioritize something.  Eurogames choose elegance.  Ameritrash chooses drama.  Wargames choose realism.

Yeah, I wanted to add a more detailed disclaimer than just "... and yeah I know, that it's not that easy, but it's just a quick overview". There are obviously always exceptions to the rule and there are games which combine elements of both worlds. But I hope it gives a quick overview over some common differences.

Jimmmmm

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2012, 06:09:54 pm »
0

But, what I do mind, is when a theme is sort of inconsistent. Dominion is mostly consistent in theme. But there are a few exceptions like Wandering Minstrel as name for a village. To answer Davio's question 3: +2 Actions means more workers, DXV said that somewhere. So I'm fine with any place which has at least a group of people, so I'm fine with Festival too. But "Wandering Minstrel" is ridiculous.

Wandering Minstrel plays sweet, sweet music, leading your peoples to, erm, produce more workers.

Yeah I think WM kind of makes sense. His posse of fans following him around everywhere is kind of like his own little wandering village. And we know that digging through your deck for something somewhat specific is kind of like "Adventuring" or "Hunting" or "Wandering". So it's like a portable village that wanders around looking for action cards. (Perhaps more fans?)
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Octo

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2012, 06:47:59 pm »
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*shrug*  I pointed out several instances where Magic attempts to ground its mechanics in its art/concepts.  There's a lot of work done to have the mechanics match the art, the set, the themes of the block, etc.  Maybe we're talking about two different things.

Yeah, I got that, but I think the difference that you suggest is this (mentioned earlier), but I just articulated it badly.
Quote
it occurs to me that you will probably making a trade-off in this discussion between making the system as a whole make sense and making any given card make sense
So in Magic the individual cards can be very coherent in and of themselves, but the system of it all is very very abstract in my opinion.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 06:49:00 pm by Octo »
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ConMan

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2012, 08:19:29 pm »
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Similarly trading a card for a better one is usually a verb suitable for a Roxy Music song.
I just wanted to point out that I +1'd this post entirely for this line. And I'm looking forward to "Love is the Drug" appearing in Guilds.
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Mecherath

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2012, 08:37:44 pm »
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Wish there was a less derogatory term than Ameritrash for the non-Eurogames.  I enjoy both types but it's hard to be "Yeah Ameritrash!"  The very label implies contempt by most people using it.  I did do a bit of searching on BGG about it, and the discussion has been done to death.  I believe the PC term of choice is Thematic Games, but it's just not catchy.  Guess the best I can do is reclaim it as a pride word? :)

I'm a huge fan of cooperative games like Arkham Horror and Pandemic, which have too much luck to be anything but Ameritrash.  I also play Talisman from time to time.  I already call it Adult Candy Land, so the term makes morse sense there.   I'd probably count Settlers of Catan as Ameritrash too, or a hybrid at least.  It definitely counts on the Luck and Conflict levels.  It's medieval (though really it only takes a single spell to jump to Fantasy) and uses wooden pieces, which is Eurogame.  The only bit left is mechanics, which I guess is the tiebreaker.  I find that the varied strategies in Cities and Knights (my favorite expansion) decrease the luck enough to leave it in the Eurogame column.
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eHalcyon

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2012, 01:27:46 am »
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I think Settlers is considered a Eurogame.
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DStu

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2012, 01:54:44 am »
+1

I think Settlers is considered a Eurogame.
I think Settlers is considered THE Eurogame. (in the sense of:
Quote from: wikipedia(German-style_board_game)
The Settlers of Catan, first published in 1995, paved the way for the genre in the United States and outside Europe.[citation needed] It was neither the first "German game" nor the first such game to find an audience outside Germany, but it became much more popular than any of its predecessors.
)
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Davio

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2012, 02:27:54 am »
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Well, the definitions for euros and ameris (I agree, let's drop the "trash" suffix) are vague and it's more about a general feel and experience you derive from the game than any single aspect.

In euros, you get more of a feeling that you're building your own island/village/farm/whatever and less so bothering with other players directly. Sure, there is conflict, but often it's because two players are pursuing the same strategy. Heck, even Caylus has conflict with the moving of the provost.

Ameris are more immersive and though luck often plays a bigger factor, those definitions are ancient and don't fit as well anymore. I've played immersive euros and lackluster ameris.
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aaron0013

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2012, 07:58:37 am »
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Seems like in Settlers, there is a lot of targeted attack.
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Octo

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2012, 08:27:09 am »
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Really? Like what? Directed attack means stuff like "Choose a player. this player [does X, Y and X]". Placing the robber is about as directed as it gets in Settlers, but you're targeting a land hex that belongs to no-one in particular, it just so happens there's a guy round it. You might think that's semantics, but there's a difference: if people you don't want to suffer are round the hex too you can't help but effect them, and if you can't find a decent spot you're stuffed. It's indirectly affecting the player you want to suffer. Also, refusing to trade with someone isn't an attack, neither is building a road in an awkward/blocking spot, they're both indirect or entirely passive.

All these are aggressively interfering with the other player in some way or other, but even Carcassonne can be an aggressive game in that way. However, they are not directed attacks like Risk or something. A lack of direct attacks does not mean a lack of interaction, and any interaction usually can manipulated to your advantage and your opponent's disadvantage, which seems like an attack.

To relate this back to the topic:

This is one thing that remains unexplained in this thread: how to do attacks factor in to the equation considering they attack everyone? (and so, btw, are not direct) Does this still fit in? Or is it jarring? A militia goes and causes trouble in all other kingdoms, simultaneously. Sort of.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 08:36:45 am by Octo »
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shMerker

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2012, 07:47:16 pm »
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I'd be more likely to disbelieve that Swindler or Mountebank attacks everyone. If you want to attack everybody with your army you just need a bigger army. If you want to swindle everyone you need a really busy swindler.
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eHalcyon

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2012, 07:52:20 pm »
+1

I'd be more likely to disbelieve that Swindler or Mountebank attacks everyone. If you want to attack everybody with your army you just need a bigger army. If you want to swindle everyone you need a really busy swindler.

It's called a Pyramid Scheme...
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enquerencia

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2012, 09:36:07 am »
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... there's no narrative, universe rules or even reality to adhere to.

Action - $3.14

Schrodinger's Cat

Throw your deck at the wall.  Put all the cards that fell face up in your hand.

This made me laugh out loud in a way that posting something like "lol" would be inappropriate and disproportionate.  The complexity of its absurdity is profound and kind of amazing.  I am in awe.  Thank you wero.  Thank you.
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vintermann

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Re: An Attempt at Theme Discussion
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2012, 04:20:10 am »
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I'm a huge fan of cooperative games like Arkham Horror and Pandemic, which have too much luck to be anything but Ameritrash.

Luck is not a disqualifier for an Eurogame. Pandemic is an eurogame, Arkham Horror isn't, because

-Cthulhu theme, -3 to Euro (the only theme less Euro I'd say is zombies)
-Complicated rules with many exceptions (in an attempt) to serve the theme, -2 to Euro
-Players get into fights. -1 to Euro. They're resolved by rolling six-sided dice, -1 to Euro.

Although Pandemic was designed around a theme, the designer was willing to include mechanics that made very little sense in the theme, for reasons of gameplay (only pass cards if the city name matches).

It's also a cultural thing. Arkham Horror was designed for the adult comic book store crowd (nothing wrong with that crowd, I am in that crowd myself), and a publisher oriented towards that market (Fantasy Flight Games). Pandemic was designed for the familygeek crowd, less the kind of geek that hangs at comic book stores, more the kind of geek who works for Yahoo as an interaction designer. The publisher (Z-man) is also an Euro publisher, perhaps not quite as family-oriented as Rio Grande Games or Hans im Glück, but far closer to those than to Fantasy Flight.
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