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[Qvist]

Congrats to pops. I like the card, but I have to say that I believe that $4 is to overpriced for this better Copper. It obviously needs playtesting, but I would definitely try it a $3 (or even at $2). I mean, the card itself is only good in engines with good draw and in alt-VP games. So, it's an edge case card either way. So I think it's nice to have a boost, so you can e.g. open double Astrolabe in Silk Road games.

[popsofctown]

3$ might be nice so you can open Astrolabe/power 4.  I priced it at 4$ specifically not to have Astro/astro Silk Road openings, though, I think that makes the rush too unbeatable.  But we can see.

[Kirian]

3$ might be nice so you can open Astrolabe/power 4.  I priced it at 4$ specifically not to have Astro/astro Silk Road openings, though, I think that makes the rush too unbeatable.  But we can see.

Agreed.  I think that becomes a ridiculous rush.  I drop Astrolabe, buy SR, set it aside.  Repeat until SRs are gone.  Drawing both astrolabes together is instant loss.

[rinkworks]

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that $5 is actually the right cost here.  Even though it's a Copper-equivalent, it could be such a monster in the end game that comparisons to Talisman, for example, will look absurd.  In a deck with one of these that draws itself every turn, you can buy green every turn and never slow down.  In alt-VP, having a Copper doesn't hurt anyway.  It's less useful in long slogs with fat decks, but even then -- as in any deck -- one single use of one of these cards pays for itself in terms of the harm it does to your deck.  Right?  Buying an Astrolabe junks your deck up by one card.  Buy a Province with it, set it aside, and now your deck is less junked up by one card.  And who knows how many times you might reuse it before the game's over.

The biggest trick, I think, is going to be timing when you buy it.

Regardless of pricing issues, I loved the idea of it and am happy to see it win.

[theory]

Buying an Astrolabe junks your deck up by one card.  Buy a Province with it, set it aside, and now your deck is less junked up by one card.  And who knows how many times you might reuse it before the game's over.

Maybe I have taken too long of a break from Dominion, but this is baffling to me.  By this logic, Island and Spy must be the most OP card in the game.  Exactly how many uses do you expect to get out of Astrolabe? How many times are you reshuffling as you buy green?  How many of those times you draw Astrolabe are you going to have your Province?  How many of those times will Astrolabe cost you a Province because your hand is Astrolabe - Gold - Gold - X - X instead of Silver - Gold - Gold?  And don't forget that Astrolabe has no effect when you draw it on your last reshuffle (and sometimes second-to-last reshuffle).

You're junking your deck at the worst possible time, while simultaneously hoping that you draw a junk card in your Province-buying hands, so that your deck might be slightly dejunked by one or two cards in the late game for one or two reshuffles.  If anything I imagine your argument runs the other way around: you're buying a bad card and not until you use it twice does it actually do anything for you.  Hence the genius of the Island 2VP.

At $4 I consider it a downgrade from Talisman, full of potential but never actually getting anything done.  At $5 it would be unplayably bad, worse than a Counting House that gave -$1.

Sorry for the longwindedness.  I like this card a lot and thought about it a lot for my submission, so I have a lot to say on it.

[Robz888]

I am definitely thinking that $4 is going to be the right price. It's going to be equivalent, perhaps a little worse, often better, than Talisman or Quarry.

[Schneau]

I find it really interesting that very experienced players and card designers are having so much trouble predicting the power of Astrolabe. That could mean that it is an interesting card with strategic possibilities. Or, it could indicate that it has fancy balance issues. I guess only time and playtesting will tell.

[rinkworks]

Buying an Astrolabe junks your deck up by one card.  Buy a Province with it, set it aside, and now your deck is less junked up by one card.  And who knows how many times you might reuse it before the game's over.

Maybe I have taken too long of a break from Dominion, but this is baffling to me.

You might be right.  My thoughts there were genuinely just a prediction.  I could well be wrong.  It's a bit of a difficult effect to gauge.

But to address a couple of your questions:

By this logic, Island and Spy must be the most OP card in the game.

Island can only be used once.  I don't really understand the Spy comparison.

If anything I imagine your argument runs the other way around: you're buying a bad card and not until you use it twice does it actually do anything for you.

I agree there.  I said you only had to use it once to equalize, but you don't burn an opportunity cost on purchasing a card just to equalize.  Otherwise you're not really equal; you're down whatever that buy opportunity could have given you instead.  You do have to be able to use it at least twice, probably three times before it pays off.

Exactly how many uses do you expect to get out of Astrolabe? How many times are you reshuffling as you buy green?

That's the big question with this card, I think.  I'm certainly not suggesting it's always a good buy -- even at $4, let alone $5.  You have to have the kind of deck that can play it a lot in the endgame, OR have a deck so junked up that a Copper is a good thing.  Neither of those are that uncommon, though, are they?  Tons of engine decks draw themselves every single turn, in which case the answer to your question is you can use Astrolabe every single turn once you get going.  Decks where Copper is a good card are less common but still not that rare:  any kind of alt-VP rush, essentially, or heavy Cursing games.  In a heavy Cursing game, when it's tough just to scrape together enough cash to buy Duchies and Estates, being able to set them aside on-buy could be huge.  In those cases, you won't be using Astrolabe every turn, but you'd also buy them earlier, so some reuse can be expected there as well.

How many of those times you draw Astrolabe are you going to have your Province?  How many of those times will Astrolabe cost you a Province because your hand is Astrolabe - Gold - Gold - X - X instead of Silver - Gold - Gold?  And don't forget that Astrolabe has no effect when you draw it on your last reshuffle (and sometimes second-to-last reshuffle).

All fair points.  And maybe ultimately these factors will point toward you being right about the correct cost.  The fact that Astrolabe carries risk on top of its potential benefit is probably why I like the card as much as I do.

[AJD]

How many turns does it take to assemble an Astrolabe-Gold-Silver-Silver-Chapel golden deck?

This might be a good benchmark to set the price. Presumably at $4 it would take a few turns longer to assemble than the Bishop golden deck, which is probably fine.

[Qvist]

I think there are 3 possible scenarios where you want it.

1.) Good drawing engine
You want it after you've built your engine before you go green. Still there's a risk to only have $7 (or $15 depending on the engine), so you really buy it only if you're really sure that your engine is good enough. In these cases, no matter if it costs $2 or $5, you will buy it.

2.) Golden deck
Chapel, Gold, Silver, Silver, Astrolabe gets a Province each turn. You will probably buy the Astrolabe last when you have $7 either way. Cost doesn't matter.

3.) Alt-VP game
In games where you want many green cards, but don't want to have them in your deck - like Gardens, Silk Road or Duke games - Copper is not a bad card and therefore Astrolabe is a good card. That's the only case you want it early. Opening double Astrolabe on SR games is still suboptimal I think. If I counted right, you will still have 4/11 chance to miss $4. So you need that Silver anyway. I think costing it $3 isn't a big problem.

But for $5 it is definitely too weak. I would often rather have another key engine card for $5 than this. So case 1 would really be weakened.
So, after re-thinking a bit, the cost doesn't matter that much. $4 is fine, but I like to see it at $3. Even $2 could work and $5 could work too although I dislike it.

[Polk5440]

FBI probably is the best interpretation of what will happen.

My concern isn't so much the cost ($4 v $5 v $3? v $2??), because cost can be easily adjusted, as is the potential balance issues between
1) when it's bad you don't buy it
2) when it's good, it's the dominant strategy and everyone must buy it & play the same strategy or lose

If this turns out to be the tradeoff that is happening, there is no right price. Unless, of course, you like completely game-dominating cards.

On to play testing, I think.

[eHalcyon]

I think "Fancy Balance Issues" is becoming an overused term, a meaningless buzzword.  FBI is something to watch out for, but "situationally useful" or "niche" does not equate to having FBI.  I think FBI should refer to cards that are usually useless, even detrimental, but in perfect situations become gamebreakingly powerful.

Does Astrolabe fall under this category?  We'll need to wait for playtesting, but I speculate that it will not.  Consider:

1. When it is weak, it still isn't useless.  Maybe you have a simple BM-X strategy (Smithy, perhaps) that is fine at getting $8 or more.  Adding in an Astrolabe isn't great, but sometimes it will pay off.

2. When it is strong, it is not gamebreaking.  Now, this point is contentious -- some people think it is gamebreaking.  But consider the situation when it is arguably at its strongest -- powerful draw engines.  Now suppose in a 2p game, both players pursue the same engine except A picks up Astrolabe while B just starts greening earlier.  When they start greening, A is able to hide green away.  But B has a head start, and that may mean that B will win the Province split.  Maybe Astrolabe, being a Copper, prevents A from getting double Province while B manages.  A gets to keep dead cards out of his deck, but is that a big deal?  If both their engines are drawing their deck anyway, will an extra dead card or two cause them to choke all that much?  I think that it usually won't.  If both players are playing strong engines, the Provinces will drain quickly before there will be much choking.

That isn't to say that Astrolabe can't make a difference.  I think that it often will.  But it won't be facerolling must-buy powerful -- it'll be another component that you have to fit into your overall plan.  When do I pick up Astrolabe?  Does it allow me to start greening earlier, with an engine that isn't as powerful?  Will a stronger engine without Astrolabe be able to catch up?



Now compare it to Talisman and Quarry, which are also alt Coppers.

Talisman: Good when the key cards are cheap, bad when they are not.  You'll often want one to help win a split of, say, Fool's Gold or Caravan.  On a board with no power $5 cards, this could be the dominant strategy and if you don't follow it you might lose... right?  Maybe not though.  But I feel it works out similarly to Astrolabe (though with different "powerful" situations, of course).

Quarry: I think it's more pronounced here.  Quarry is rather useless when the dominant strategy is BM-X.  But when there is a strong engine to build?  Man, Quarry is so good.  If you don't pick it up, you will probably lose the BV-Wharf split, and all the GMs, and then you've got no chance.  But does Quarry suffer from FBI?  I think it's still fine.




I think people are overestimating its effect on engines.  If Astrolabe isn't on the board, that engine is probably still the best strategy.  There may be rare cases where Astrolabe makes an engine viable when it is otherwise too weak, but I think that's niche and interesting.  With the strong engine, Astrolabe becomes another engine component you have to factor into the build.

[Drab Emordnilap]

FBI probably is the best interpretation of what will happen.

My concern isn't so much the cost ($4 v $5 v $3? v $2??), because cost can be easily adjusted, as is the potential balance issues between
1) when it's bad you don't buy it
2) when it's good, it's the dominant strategy and everyone must buy it & play the same strategy or lose

If this turns out to be the tradeoff that is happening, there is no right price. Unless, of course, you like completely game-dominating cards.

On to play testing, I think.

I can read this post as applying to Gardens equally well.

[jotheonah]

It's gonna be good friends with Herbalist when they show up together, I imagine.

[One Armed Man]

Astrolabe is very similar to Writ of Passage, a card from Dubdubdubdub's Chimneys and Change expansion. That one cost 6 and had a +Buy.

[Archetype]

Astrolabe is very similar to Writ of Passage, a card from Dubdubdubdub's Chimneys and Change expansion. That one cost 6 and had a +Buy.

I noticed that, and I thought the submitter was Dubdubdubdub, and he had fixed up the card a little.