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[Robz888]

I intend to vote against this mission, because I am not on the mission.

[Insomniac]

I intend to vote against this mission, because I am not on the mission.

See I don't get this logic for mission 1. It's like only 2/7 people will be on the mission so its always gonna be 5 v 2 and all missions will fail. Someone at some point is going to have to suck it up and vote for a mission that doesn't include them or the spies instantly win.

[ftl]

Maybe I'm horribly misunderstanding the strategy behind this game, but I'm just as happy to vote for a team that doesn't have me on it.

Well, then everyone's happy!

I typically figure that as resistance, I want to send people I trust on missions and not people I distrust. And at the start, the only person I trust is myself, I know my role pm and not anybody else's. Also in terms of information gathering, I figure my first priority is to figure out who the spies are, and then prove it later; if I know that my partner in my first mission turned out to be a spy, I can keep a careful eye on his votes and words and find something to catch him with to prove to everyone else that he's a spy. Easier to find the proof if you know the answer.

So I'm voting for this mission.

I intend to vote against this mission, because I am not on the mission.

See I don't get this logic for mission 1. It's like only 2/7 people will be on the mission so its always gonna be 5 v 2 and all missions will fail. Someone at some point is going to have to suck it up and vote for a mission that doesn't include them or the spies instantly win.

It also makes sense for the NEXT person after the leader to vote yes for purely selfish reasons, since they'll get plot cards next. With that, that puts them at 4v3 in terms of "people who get something" vs "people who don't"; only takes one nice guy to flip it to 3-4. It's also nice to go through a bunch of people's proposals and see who they propose missions with, for later scumpairings discussion. But for that to be useful, you need a balance of people who are willing to pass missions they aren't on and don't get anything out of sometimes, just to keep those proposals meaningful (so the spies can't just propose anything and be sure that it'll fail). But hey! We have glooble here and he seems to do that! And maybe you too?

So maybe mission proposal 1.1 will pass after all. It's best for the resistance if the spies don't have guaranteed knowledge of whether the mission proposal will pass or fail at the time they propose it.

[ftl]

Oh, wait, I'm next after insomniac. Dang. So I have double reasons to want this mission to pass, and there isn't a third person with a vested interest in having this mission pass. Sadface. Well, maybe there's some other pass-by-default rather than fail-by-default person around besides glooble!

[ftl]

(and, btw, in case anyone new is confused by everyone announcing their votes in thread - these are not the real votes, the real votes are sent in by PM to the mod. We'll know who voted pass and who voted no pass after the fact, but these posts aren't binding. )

[Qvist]

Wow, this already started and I was away yesterday.

I just looked over the thread and as I'm not on the mission and don't know much about anybody, I tend to vote "No".
I also got "No confidence". I think it's better to wait a little bit until I use that because of the same reasons. What do you think?

[O]

Voting Deadline in 22 hours

[O]

Insomniac's Proposal: Insomniac, Ftl

"YES" votes: Insomniac, Ftl, Glooble
"NO" votes: Robz, Voltgloss, Galzria, Qvist

Proposal has been voted down (1/5 failed votes), leadership passes to Ftl

[Voltgloss]

I thought perhaps Glooble was pulling a clever gambit there - saying he was going to vote yes to entice spies into voting with him, but ACTUALLY voting no and thus trapping the spies - but no.  He actually voted "yes" for a mission that, assuming Glooble is Resistance, had an 80% chance of having a Spy on it:

- 3/6 chance of Insom being a Spy, plus
- (3/6)*(3/5) chance of Insom being Resistance but ftl being a Spy.

I don't get Glooble's explanation either, as it seems internally inconsistent.  On the one hand he says:

I voted yes for basically that reason. This mission likely won't tell us much either way. With only two players, any spy on the team basically sacrifices himself if he sabotages it. So it seems pretty likely to me he won't, just to build confidence. In that case I learn just as little if I'm on the mission as I do if I'm not.

...i.e., "it doesn't matter if a Spy's on the mission because he won't sabotage it."  But on the other hand, he says:

Or, if I'm on the mission and it fails, then I know the other person on the mission is a spy. But I have no way of convincing you guys of that fact, so a lot of you are going to think I'm the spy. It's good for the resistance, because you know "at least one of these two people is a spy" but it sucks for me, so why would I want to put myself in that position.

...i.e., "if I'm on the mission and a Spy sabotages it, that's bad because people will think I'm the Spy."  Which undercuts the first paragraph - a Spy could very well decide to sabotage the first mission, specifically to set up that "is HE the Spy or is HE the Spy" mentality amongst the remaining Resistance members. 

I don't buy the argument that Spies always pass the first mission.  eHalcyon (Spy) commented specifically after R-I that he probably should have failed the first mission when he was on it.  Especially here where there are 3 spies.  1 spy casting suspicion on himself and another Resistance member seems a reasonable trade for the scum to make for getting 1 early victory over the Resistance and putting us on the back foot from the start.

So I have to suspect now that Glooble is more likely than the rest of us to be a Spy, and that he was hoping to convince one of the rest of us to join him in passing a mission with a Spy on it (either Insom or ftl).  The problem, of course, being that Glooble is the person whose mission proposal we HAVE to accept if it gets to him.  Thoughts from the veterans on how to handle this conundrum?

[Insomniac]

Where is ftl

[Robz888]

I thought perhaps Glooble was pulling a clever gambit there - saying he was going to vote yes to entice spies into voting with him, but ACTUALLY voting no and thus trapping the spies - but no.  He actually voted "yes" for a mission that, assuming Glooble is Resistance, had an 80% chance of having a Spy on it:

- 3/6 chance of Insom being a Spy, plus
- (3/6)*(3/5) chance of Insom being Resistance but ftl being a Spy.

I don't get Glooble's explanation either, as it seems internally inconsistent.  On the one hand he says:

I voted yes for basically that reason. This mission likely won't tell us much either way. With only two players, any spy on the team basically sacrifices himself if he sabotages it. So it seems pretty likely to me he won't, just to build confidence. In that case I learn just as little if I'm on the mission as I do if I'm not.

...i.e., "it doesn't matter if a Spy's on the mission because he won't sabotage it."  But on the other hand, he says:

Or, if I'm on the mission and it fails, then I know the other person on the mission is a spy. But I have no way of convincing you guys of that fact, so a lot of you are going to think I'm the spy. It's good for the resistance, because you know "at least one of these two people is a spy" but it sucks for me, so why would I want to put myself in that position.

...i.e., "if I'm on the mission and a Spy sabotages it, that's bad because people will think I'm the Spy."  Which undercuts the first paragraph - a Spy could very well decide to sabotage the first mission, specifically to set up that "is HE the Spy or is HE the Spy" mentality amongst the remaining Resistance members. 

I don't buy the argument that Spies always pass the first mission.  eHalcyon (Spy) commented specifically after R-I that he probably should have failed the first mission when he was on it.  Especially here where there are 3 spies.  1 spy casting suspicion on himself and another Resistance member seems a reasonable trade for the scum to make for getting 1 early victory over the Resistance and putting us on the back foot from the start.

So I have to suspect now that Glooble is more likely than the rest of us to be a Spy, and that he was hoping to convince one of the rest of us to join him in passing a mission with a Spy on it (either Insom or ftl).  The problem, of course, being that Glooble is the person whose mission proposal we HAVE to accept if it gets to him.  Thoughts from the veterans on how to handle this conundrum?

If Glooble is a Spy, it's very possible that one of Insomniac or Ftl is a Spy. Similarly, a Spy does not want 2 Spies on a mission (they can't communicate, they don't know whether to both fail or what), so if Insomniac is a Spy, it's likely Ftl is not.

[Glooble]

Ok, I seriously don't understand the logic everyone seems to be using here.

Since everyone is forced to accept my proposal if it gets to me, than why is it any less random to go with ftl's proposal rather than mine? And if everyone is expected to vote a particular way, then letting it get that far gives us no additional information. So why not just go with the first team proposed and get on with it?

[ftl]

You know, the logic that Glooble is a spy even seems sound.

Except, just this past Saturday, I played an IRL game of resistance. I was  spy, and used that exact same logic to "prove" that a resistance member was actually a spy. So...

And, as I said before, it's best for resistance if spies don't know whether a given mission will pass or not at the time they propose it. So I've got nothing against Glooble, I think.

##I propose for the mission: Myself (ftl) and Qvist

I buy that there's the potential possibility of maybe Insomniac/Glooble being spies, as suggested earlier; nothing concrete at all, but there's no particular reason for me to include them on the mission, so why not pick someone else. Not picking Robz since he's after me and will get to distribute plot cards anyway if this passes. Picking Qvist because he's last in the ordering, might as well spread around the participation.

[Robz888]

Ok, I seriously don't understand the logic everyone seems to be using here.

Since everyone is forced to accept my proposal if it gets to me, than why is it any less random to go with ftl's proposal rather than mine? And if everyone is expected to vote a particular way, then letting it get that far gives us no additional information. So why not just go with the first team proposed and get on with it?

Because I do not have to accept the mission that was just proposed. A mission without me on it is more likely to have Spies. There will be more mission proposals after this one that may include me. Therefore, I voted against this mission.

Are you an obvspy, or something?

[Insomniac]

I too will be voting down this mission. I liked mine because it a) had me on it, and b) when leadership (and card dealing) passed to ftl. We would have had additional insight into how ftl was passing out the cards. Since this mission passing does not tell me anything about Robz who would next be dealing out the plot cards and I am not in this pairing I see no reason to vote yes.

[Glooble]

I get that part, RObz, but if everyone uses that logic, then people are going to be forced to accept my proposal eventually. So the team we're going to end up with has the same chance of being chosen by a spy as Insomniac's team. So why not just pick ftl's team and get it over with?

[Glooble]

Also, given the knowledge that in all likelyhood I would get the chance to choose the eventual team, if I were a spy why would I vote for that mission? What sense does that make?

[Galzria]

I get that part, RObz, but if everyone uses that logic, then people are going to be forced to accept my proposal eventually. So the team we're going to end up with has the same chance of being chosen by a spy as Insomniac's team. So why not just pick ftl's team and get it over with?

... Because from YOUR perspective, assuming that you're Resistance, you know that we'll have to accept your proposal - which by default should have a higher chance of succeeding to you than some randomly proposed mission by somebody else. To us? Hey, maybe it doesn't matter. But to YOU? Why would you vote for a mission without yourself on it?

[Robz888]

I get that part, RObz, but if everyone uses that logic, then people are going to be forced to accept my proposal eventually. So the team we're going to end up with has the same chance of being chosen by a spy as Insomniac's team. So why not just pick ftl's team and get it over with?

Well, I think now there might be good cause to pass a mission before it gets to the point where you can propose. I'm not sure I want to accept your mission.

But for the moment, I will again vote against, since the mission does not include me.

[ftl]

On the other hand, if my mission passes, the you get to distribute plot cards! So you should pass this mission even though it doesn't have you on it.

And if this one fails, well, by the exact same logic the rest of us will vote down your suggestion too, and then glooble will be left to pick the winning mission, and you just said he's obvspy.

[Robz888]

On the other hand, if my mission passes, the you get to distribute plot cards! So you should pass this mission even though it doesn't have you on it.

And if this one fails, well, by the exact same logic the rest of us will vote down your suggestion too, and then glooble will be left to pick the winning mission, and you just said he's obvspy.

Can't we leave it to Voltgloss? Isn't it 5 failing missions loses us the game?

[Robz888]

On the other hand, if my mission passes, the you get to distribute plot cards! So you should pass this mission even though it doesn't have you on it.

And if this one fails, well, by the exact same logic the rest of us will vote down your suggestion too, and then glooble will be left to pick the winning mission, and you just said he's obvspy.

Can't we leave it to Voltgloss? Isn't it 5 failing missions loses us the game?

And any ways I'm fine with this, because then people will accept my mission rather than let it pass to GLooble. And at this point I think I would rather be on the mission for sure than distribute plot cards. Being on the mission helps me learn something. Me distributing plot cards will be mostly random.

[Voltgloss]

Can't we leave it to Voltgloss? Isn't it 5 failing missions loses us the game?

Qvist has No Confidence, Robz.  If he's a spy he could veto my proposal and lose us the game.

[Glooble]

Yes, but if I spy holds the No Confidence card he can auto-fail the fifth.

[Glooble]

Robz, what if I included you on my mission. Would you pass it then?