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[rinkworks]

I played a couple of test games of this against an A.I.  It felt super strong to me overall, and I wonder if it needs a nerf or a price boost.

First game wasn't so bad, although it kind of felt like it.  Familiar and Alchemist were also on the board.  I got an Aqua Vitae and a Familiar, in that order (perhaps the wrong order), and then alternated between Alchemists and more Aqua Vitaeaeae (that's the plural, right?).  Lack of +Buy kept me to one Province per turn, but I could have exceeded that if there had been +Buy available.  Anyway, it ramped up really quickly, with the Aqua Vitae generally being a Gold or better.  Extra Potions, to make sure I could get more Alchemists and Aqua Vitaeaeae, didn't hurt me at all, and nor did the Curses I got from enemy Familiars.  The deck just breezed right through that stuff.

Second game had Worker's Village for seamless +Buy and Apothecary, to mass Coppers for the Aqua Vitae cards.  4 Provinces in 13 turns.  The game ended with me getting 6 Provinces in 16 turns.

Granted the strength of both games depended on me having the right combos available (Alchemist and Apothecary), but Potion cards will tend to show up with other Potion cards, depending on how you select the kingdom cards, and so I wonder if this is just too good.  Or is it just appropriately strong?

Certainly more testing and more opinions will be required before we can know.

[Kirian]

I believe the plural would be "Aquae Vitae."  But AVs probably works better.

[eHalcyon]

Thanks for the report!  I definitely undervalued it when doing the concept the first time.  Hopefully some people can playtest it with less ideal Kingdoms to see how it is. 

If it does turn out too strong, what can we do?

Potion costs continue to befuddle me.  How big a bump is it from $4P to $5P?  I imagine it is actually quite huge, because $4 to $5 without the Potion is already a big gap.  But maybe it could be slightly buffed to justify a big price increase?  Have +Buy built in?  But then it might be able to do too much on its own, while right now it does rely on having some external +Buy and +Cards.

Some nerf ideas:

- Make it a pure cantrip Coppersmith, cutting out the boost on Potion.  But this wouldn't be as fun thematically.
- Put in a restriction that prevents purchasing Copper while it is in play.  It would make it somewhat more difficult to buy extra Copper, though maybe it doesn't need that anyway.
- Require some form of activation, a la Conspirator.

[jonts26]

Another nerf would be to remove the +card. It would probably make it a good deal weaker as you need more support to really get these going.

[eHalcyon]

Another nerf would be to remove the +card. It would probably make it a good deal weaker as you need more support to really get these going.

I think without the +Card it looks too much like Bank that only counts Coppers and Potions.

[Robz888]

I actually don't remember what this card does, but one nerf you can always keep in mind is giving all other players a benefit (a la Vault or Embassy).

In this case, it could be a bonus to other players that could specifically benefit people not pursuing a Potion strategy, maybe.

[eHalcyon]

I actually don't remember what this card does, but one nerf you can always keep in mind is giving all other players a benefit (a la Vault or Embassy).

In this case, it could be a bonus to other players that could specifically benefit people not pursuing a Potion strategy, maybe.

$4P - Action

+1 Card
+1 Action
Copper and Potion each produce an extra $1 this turn.




Giving opponents a benefit is a nice idea.  Hm.

[Robz888]

I actually don't remember what this card does, but one nerf you can always keep in mind is giving all other players a benefit (a la Vault or Embassy).

In this case, it could be a bonus to other players that could specifically benefit people not pursuing a Potion strategy, maybe.

$4P - Action

+1 Card
+1 Action
Copper and Potion each produce an extra $1 this turn.




Giving opponents a benefit is a nice idea.  Hm.

You could add some qualification like this: "Each other player may reveal his hand. If he reveals a hand with no cards that have Potion in their cost (borrow language from Apprentice, or whatever), he gets some some benefit (maybe +1 card, or +$1?)

[WanderingWinder]

To be fair, apothecary and buys is about the best combo you can get, and that only got 4 provinces in 13 and 6 in 16, that doesn't seem so bad at all to me....

[rinkworks]

Axing the +1 Card was the first thing I thought of, but you're right -- then it's too much like a nerfed Bank.  On the other hand, having a nerfed Bank that draws a card doesn't seem that much stronger than Bank itself, so maybe I'm just wrong about my suspicion that it's overpowered.  I mean, $7 and $4P aren't all that different from each other.  So I am thinking now that it was only the combos that made Aqua Vitae strong.  Bank has power combos too, including with Alchemist and Apothecary, and I'm sure I would have been convinced Bank was overpowered if I'd only played games with those combos available.

I would argue against adding in +Buy, regardless of how expensive the card was made to compensate, just because then I think there's no thought involved at all:  however expensive it is, you go for it.

Opponent benefits aren't out, but opponent benefits on a stackable card could slow the game down, and in any case I would lament the loss of the simplicity of the card.  Ditto with an activation cost, though Conspirator is one of my all-time favorite cards due to how interesting it is to try to make them work, so maybe such a thing would be worth the trouble.

A restriction on Copper purchases probably wouldn't work -- I never bought Copper to feed these things; with Apothecary and Alchemist, I never needed to.

[rinkworks]

To be fair, apothecary and buys is about the best combo you can get, and that only got 4 provinces in 13 and 6 in 16, that doesn't seem so bad at all to me....

Ah, good to hear.  I don't know my benchmarks very well, so I'm glad you weighed in.

[Kirian]

Hrm... I think your playtests hit really big combos, though.  A few things:

1. AV is going to combo with any big draw, and Alchemist or Apothecary are going to be the best big draws because you can buy them with Potion, and the latter can draw all your Coppers.  Without drawing on board, you're not going to be getting a huge amount until you get two or three in the same turn--hard without draw.

2. $4P is a steep price point.  Even with Silver/Potion opening, you're only going to get it a third or so of the time on the second shuffle (SPCCC, SPCCE or PCCCC).

3. 4 Provinces in 13 turns isn't that much better than BM-Smithy; obviously it'll have more staying power, but it's not that amazing.

So given what you've said I don't see it as all that powerful at $4P; seems just right, I'd think.  At $3P you'd get it on the second shuffle about 80% of the time, which might well be too powerful, though without draw, or vs. discard attacks, you're still not looking at an amazing boost for the price.

Edit:  And I see I've been ninja'd by WW on points 1 and 3.

[eHalcyon]

New thoughts are comforting.

[One Armed Man]

What is the problem? Replace AV with Golem on the same board and you are Goleming Apothecaries and Familiars. AV and Apothecary are obviously the best pals in the world. Many potion card pairs work together well and dominate boards. With any significant change, it isn't the card we voted for any more.

[Qvist]

I just want to mention that most Potion cards are better with other Potion cards on the board. I think you should test it as only Potion card and I think then it will remain often unbought like many other Potion cost cards if there isn't any good supporter (especially +Buy).

If you really want to change the card because of its power level, I agree with Robz that it should only be for a benefit for your opponents.

[Schneau]

From what I hear, it sounds pretty balanced. I agree that it will probably actually be weak on most boards that it is the only P cost card, and could definitely be strong with Apothecary and Alchemist, especially since they both give you a cheaper P cost to hit if you miss $4P on the second shuffle. I mean, it will probably be in the top two $4P cards  . More seriously, I don't think it will seem overpowered, and will probably seem balanced along with the other P costs in this expansion.

[Archetype]

Maybe when you gain it, all other players can choose to gain a Potion into their hand.

Or when you gain it, all other players may trash a Potion from their hand.

Or maybe a both?

[Schneau]

Maybe when you gain it, all other players can choose to gain a Potion into their hand.

Or when you gain it, all other players may trash a Potion from their hand.

Or maybe a both?

Maybe gain a Potion, but I'd say probably not to their hand - that seems too strong for them.

[eHalcyon]

Well it sounds like it's still balanced and that theory just played boards where it had ideal combos.

We can hold off on change ideas until after further testing?  But the Potion gaining would be an interesting avenue to explore.  Copper gaining/trashing might work too.  But we don't know if it's necessary yet.

[rinkworks]

Well it sounds like it's still balanced and that theory just played boards where it had ideal combos.

I promise we're different people.  :-)

Anyway, yeah, I'm persuaded by the comments here that the card is correctly balanced as-is.  Great work!

[eHalcyon]

Well it sounds like it's still balanced and that theory just played boards where it had ideal combos.

I promise we're different people.  :-)

Anyway, yeah, I'm persuaded by the comments here that the card is correctly balanced as-is.  Great work!

Oops! Sorry!

[theory]

I'm flattered.