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[WanderingWinder]

And still expect to:
A treasure card that does something when trashed (dougz - I think it was him, maybe it was Donald - mentioned that there is a card in DA that makes it important that the cards actually hit the trash from thief; hmmm, but he also said that in practice, this won't matter, so maybe it is not this)
A curse-giver (though with the looters, this set might not have one)
A more conventional trasher (a la chapel, steward, remake, etc.)
A card with Village in the name
The 5th ruins
The 2nd upgrade card (a la hermit/madman).
The other 2 looters
The other 2 ways to get spoils
More cards that interact with things in the trash somehow, rather than just being trashed
Some reason why the shelters type is important, other than colour....


And which we now don't expect to see
....yeah, pretty much anything seems in play to me now.

[Voltaire]

Quick, someone go read the Secret Histories for clues...if things get slow enough at work, I might just do this and post findings here.

[Insomniac]

And still expect to:
A treasure card that does something when trashed (dougz - I think it was him, maybe it was Donald - mentioned that there is a card in DA that makes it important that the cards actually hit the trash from thief; hmmm, but he also said that in practice, this won't matter, so maybe it is not this)
A curse-giver (though with the looters, this set might not have one)
A more conventional trasher (a la chapel, steward, remake, etc.)
A card with Village in the name
The 5th ruins
The 2nd upgrade card (a la hermit/madman).
The other 2 looters
The other 2 ways to get spoils
More cards that interact with things in the trash somehow, rather than just being trashed
Some reason why the shelters type is important, other than colour....


And which we now don't expect to see
....yeah, pretty much anything seems in play to me now.

Pretty sure we saw the second upgrader (pillage into double spoils)

also the card doesn't have to have village in its name...it could be a...homeless shelter, or a ghost TOWN (shanty town)

[rinkworks]

Pretty sure we saw the second upgrader (pillage into double spoils)

That wasn't it.  In Preview #4, Donald accounted for all 500 cards, and the second upgrader and Spoils were separately accounted for.

[Fuu]

A $2 attack? Unlikely I suppose, but so was pretty much everything else so far ...

[CaptainNevada]

Between Donald X's comments about "upgrading" being changing cards for other cards, the general poverty theme, and the hit certain Trash-for-Benefit cards took with $1 cost cards, perhaps a trasher that trades cards you have for cards of a lower value.  You might even be able to buff it a bit by having it go into your hand like Trading Post.

Example:

Pawnbroker ($4 / Action)
Trash a card from your hand.  Gain a Card Costing Exactly $1 Less, Putting It Into Your Hand

The idea being you're getting rid of stuff for quick cash.

And still expect to:
A treasure card that does something when trashed (dougz - I think it was him, maybe it was Donald - mentioned that there is a card in DA that makes it important that the cards actually hit the trash from thief; hmmm, but he also said that in practice, this won't matter, so maybe it is not this)
A curse-giver (though with the looters, this set might not have one)
A more conventional trasher (a la chapel, steward, remake, etc.)
A card with Village in the name
The 5th ruins
The 2nd upgrade card (a la hermit/madman).
The other 2 looters
The other 2 ways to get spoils
More cards that interact with things in the trash somehow, rather than just being trashed
Some reason why the shelters type is important, other than colour....


And which we now don't expect to see
....yeah, pretty much anything seems in play to me now.

[ConMan]

While Graverobber is thematically a traditional upgrading card (i.e. trash a card in hand for a better card from the supply) with an extra ability, like the Villages mostly involving a word that invokes a sense of a place with lots of people (X Village, City, University), I wonder whether there's going to be something with a more thematic name along the lines of Upgrade/Remake/Develop. What's left in that space, anyway? Renovate?

[Fuu]

What's left in that space, anyway? Renovate?

That could work. Demolish might also fit with the theme. Restore?

It's also interesting to think up thematic effects... maybe a reverse remodel, return a card from your hand to the supply; if you do, gain a card costing up to 2 more from the trash.

[CaptainNevada]

Improve.  Rebuild.  Reconstruct.  Deconstruct.  Downgrade.   Worsen. 

What's left in that space, anyway? Renovate?

That could work. Demolish might also fit with the theme. Restore?

It's also interesting to think up thematic effects... maybe a reverse remodel, return a card from your hand to the supply; if you do, gain a card costing up to 2 more from the trash.

[Davio]

A Reaction? Or has it been said that this set doesn't have any?

[Loschmidt]

hovel is a reaction

[ednever]

Last stand:
Trash a card. If you do play it two (three?) times.

Usually worse than throne room/kings court. But sometimes you would want the card gone. Maybe if it worked in treasure too...

Ed

[werothegreat]

Last stand:
Trash a card. If you do play it two (three?) times.

Usually worse than throne room/kings court. But sometimes you would want the card gone. Maybe if it worked in treasure too...

Ed

Would totally use this on Moneylender.

[Powerman]

Scout Friend
Victory $4
Worth 1 VP per copy of Scout you have

[Davio]

hovel is a reaction

Yes, but would there be another?

[RiemannZetaJones]

hovel is a reaction

Yes, but would there be another?

In the secret history of Seaside, Donald X says that they asked him to put in a card that counters attacks, which turned out to be Lighthouse. All the other sets have a reaction card that counters attacks, and my guess is that Dark Ages will have a card of some sort in it that you can play against attacks.

[chwhite]

hovel is a reaction

Yes, but would there be another?

In the secret history of Seaside, Donald X says that they asked him to put in a card that counters attacks, which turned out to be Lighthouse. All the other sets have a reaction card that counters attacks, and my guess is that Dark Ages will have a card of some sort in it that you can play against attacks.

Except for Alchemy.

[ConMan]

Improve.  Rebuild.  Reconstruct.  Deconstruct.  Downgrade.   Worsen. 

That actually fits in with a thought I'd already had - in the realm of "unspoken rules", there's the one of "if you trash a card for benefit, the benefit should be worth more than having the card" or, in Remake terms, if you trash something you get something better. Besides Develop, how could you leverage a card that had "Trash a card from your hand; gain a card costing exactly/up to a value $1 less than that of the trashed card" into something actually useful?

(Thoughts: it gives you something as well, it gains the card into hand and gives +1 Action, you get coins equal to the difference but then how is that different from Salvager ...)

[Kirian]

hovel is a reaction

Yes, but would there be another?

In the secret history of Seaside, Donald X says that they asked him to put in a card that counters attacks, which turned out to be Lighthouse. All the other sets have a reaction card that counters attacks, and my guess is that Dark Ages will have a card of some sort in it that you can play against attacks.

Except for Alchemy.

Alchemy was a half-set, though.  The other half set does have a reaction.

[chwhite]

hovel is a reaction

Yes, but would there be another?

In the secret history of Seaside, Donald X says that they asked him to put in a card that counters attacks, which turned out to be Lighthouse. All the other sets have a reaction card that counters attacks, and my guess is that Dark Ages will have a card of some sort in it that you can play against attacks.

Except for Alchemy.

Alchemy was a half-set, though.  The other half set does have a reaction.

So, we will certainly see one in Dark Ages then.  But will we for Guilds?

[CaptainNevada]

The easiest way would be for it to be a mass trasher (say, up to three cards).  They are often useful to get rid of your starting deck.  The other way would be for it to turn into an attack.  Like Vandals or Mobs that force opponents to discard but also take a small toll on some of your own property.

Improve.  Rebuild.  Reconstruct.  Deconstruct.  Downgrade.   Worsen. 

That actually fits in with a thought I'd already had - in the realm of "unspoken rules", there's the one of "if you trash a card for benefit, the benefit should be worth more than having the card" or, in Remake terms, if you trash something you get something better. Besides Develop, how could you leverage a card that had "Trash a card from your hand; gain a card costing exactly/up to a value $1 less than that of the trashed card" into something actually useful?

(Thoughts: it gives you something as well, it gains the card into hand and gives +1 Action, you get coins equal to the difference but then how is that different from Salvager ...)

[Davio]

Reactions will never hurt the attacker directly. But so many rules conventions have been broken already, this may be next. I doubt it though.

[PSGarak]

Improve.  Rebuild.  Reconstruct.  Deconstruct.  Downgrade.   Worsen. 

That actually fits in with a thought I'd already had - in the realm of "unspoken rules", there's the one of "if you trash a card for benefit, the benefit should be worth more than having the card" or, in Remake terms, if you trash something you get something better. Besides Develop, how could you leverage a card that had "Trash a card from your hand; gain a card costing exactly/up to a value $1 less than that of the trashed card" into something actually useful?

(Thoughts: it gives you something as well, it gains the card into hand and gives +1 Action, you get coins equal to the difference but then how is that different from Salvager ...)

• Gain two cards, each costing up to $1 less than the card you trash.
• The card does something cool, and the trash-for-unbenefit is actually a "cost" rather than a benefit. For example, imagine a Laboratory that only costs $3 or $4, but it downgrades a card in your hand (putting it back to your hand).
• On that thought, imagine something like Salvager that "splits" your card. The wording is complicated, but "Trash a card from your hand. +$X, and gain a card costing up to $Y, where X+Y is the cost of the card trashed."

Of these, I think the first fits most thematically with the "poverty" aspect of Dark Ages. Plus, combos abound. Estate -> 2xPoorhouse, Feodum -> 5xSilver. And of course, Rats makes everything better.

[Loschmidt]

• On that thought, imagine something like Salvager that "splits" your card. The wording is complicated, but "Trash a card from your hand. +$X, and gain a card costing up to $Y, where X+Y is the cost of the card trashed."

I love this idea, or a forge variant. Trash x number of cards, gain x cards of the same total value. You could trash two rats and get a copper and a province.

[mnavratil]

• On that thought, imagine something like Salvager that "splits" your card. The wording is complicated, but "Trash a card from your hand. +$X, and gain a card costing up to $Y, where X+Y is the cost of the card trashed."

I love this idea, or a forge variant. Trash x number of cards, gain x cards of the same total value. You could trash two rats and get a copper and a province.

A card like that could get tricky to balance. As you wrote, where you need to gain exactly the same number of cards back, it is probably too weak/specific. Picture a nice forge hand where you trash 7 coppers and an estate. This card would be worthless there. Also wouldn't be terribly useful for trashing any single card, as you could have usually just bought the card of the same cost anyway. I guess it kind of reverses a swindler, but that seems overly specific. I do think these forge-variants are a cool concept, just hard to get the wording and power-level correct while keeping the card useful.

The 'split' a card version is exactly Salvager. The +buy gives you the flexibility to do exactly what is described, without having to take an extra copper if not wanted.

[LastFootnote]

According to the Secret History of the Intrigue Cards, Intrigue once had a Reaction that tied into the one-shot theme it originally had. I'm guessing that Reaction was something to the tune of, "When you trash a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing [less than/as much as/$1 more than] that card." If so, it would be nice to see that reaction effect in Dark Ages.

Another plausible Reaction effect is, "When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash [some number of cards] from your hand."

[Davio]

I don't think it would react on trashing otherwise it would have to have an obligatory trashing action itself.

On the other hand, other reaction cards can be useless without Attack cards or in the case of Tunnel: A discarder.

[LastFootnote]

I don't think it needs to be a trasher itself as long as it does something useful in a game without trashers.

[Loschmidt]

And still expect to:
A treasure card that does something when trashed (dougz - I think it was him, maybe it was Donald - mentioned that there is a card in DA that makes it important that the cards actually hit the trash from thief; hmmm, but he also said that in practice, this won't matter, so maybe it is not this)

I really hope we do see this, it'd be a nice boost to Mine

[Watno]

It might also be a reaction to trashing a card

[Loschmidt]

It might also be a reaction to trashing a card

The reaction to trashing is a good idea, and fits thematically. Seems likely What would it do?

[Qvist]

It might also be a reaction to trashing a card

The reaction to trashing is a good idea, and fits thematically. Seems likely What would it do?

Still one of my favourite cards:

"Doctor $4 Action-Reaction // Trash up to two cards. Get +$1 for each trashed card. -- When you would trash a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, discard this and put the trashed card aside. Put that to your discard pile in your clean-up phase"

[pst]

It might also be a reaction to trashing a card

That's probable, because of the talk earlier of it becoming important for instance that Thief trashes even the cards that don't stay in the trash.

[Davio]

Still it has to react to your own trashing instead of your opponent's to prevent targeting.
Or something with your left or right neighbor.

[Watno]

Well, with thief its the attacked player trashing, so i dont see the problem.

[bozzball]

Two trashing reaction possibilities:

When an opponent trashes a card, you may reveal this card from your hand. If you do, discard it and you may trash a card with the same name.

When you trash a card, you may reveal this card from your hand. If you do, you may either return it to the supply or top deck it. (Sort of a reverse watchtower)

[pst]

When you trash a card, you may reveal this card from your hand. If you do, you may either return it to the supply or top deck it. (Sort of a reverse watchtower)

Which would be one reason for the rules having to mention the lose-track rule. When the Thief "may gain any or all of these trashed cards" they might not be in the trash anymore.

[Fuu]

While Graverobber is thematically a traditional upgrading card (i.e. trash a card in hand for a better card from the supply) with an extra ability, like the Villages mostly involving a word that invokes a sense of a place with lots of people (X Village, City, University), I wonder whether there's going to be something with a more thematic name along the lines of Upgrade/Remake/Develop. What's left in that space, anyway? Renovate?

Improve.  Rebuild.  Reconstruct.  Deconstruct.  Downgrade.   Worsen. 

A trash for benefit that doesn't improve the cost of your cards might be interesting, something like:

'Retool' or 'Reconstruct'
+1 action
Trash a card from your hand; gain a card of the same cost putting it in your hand.

It would give you flexibility. If your hand has too many terminal draw cards you can convert one to an equal cost village and then you're set. Also you could just replace a card with the same card if you only want it for the on-trash/on-gain benefit, or if you want to deplete that pile.

A reaction to trashing or treasure that does something when trashed would also be good, but they would make Thief worse, and it doesn't really need that. Maybe a reaction to other players trashing would work, e.g. When another player trashes a card you may reveal and discard this card; if you do, draw up to 6.

[GendoIkari]

While Graverobber is thematically a traditional upgrading card (i.e. trash a card in hand for a better card from the supply) with an extra ability, like the Villages mostly involving a word that invokes a sense of a place with lots of people (X Village, City, University), I wonder whether there's going to be something with a more thematic name along the lines of Upgrade/Remake/Develop. What's left in that space, anyway? Renovate?

Improve.  Rebuild.  Reconstruct.  Deconstruct.  Downgrade.   Worsen. 

A trash for benefit that doesn't improve the cost of your cards might be interesting, something like:

'Retool' or 'Reconstruct'
+1 action
Trash a card from your hand; gain a card of the same cost putting it in your hand.

It would give you flexibility.

It would also allow you to instantly drain the entire Retool pile in one turn, as soon as you have a Retool and another card that costs the same as Retool in your hand. However, it's a good idea that can work if you say "gain a differently named card of the same cost, putting it in your hand" instead.

*EDIT* Nothing to see here.

[AJD]

'Retool' or 'Reconstruct'
+1 action
Trash a card from your hand; gain a card of the same cost putting it in your hand.

It would give you flexibility.

It would also allow you to instantly drain the entire Retool pile in one turn, as soon as you have a Retool and another card that costs the same as Retool in your hand.

Wait, how?

[GendoIkari]

'Retool' or 'Reconstruct'
+1 action
Trash a card from your hand; gain a card of the same cost putting it in your hand.

It would give you flexibility.

It would also allow you to instantly drain the entire Retool pile in one turn, as soon as you have a Retool and another card that costs the same as Retool in your hand.

Wait, how?

Started to write out the steps that would allow it; and saw my mistake! Even if you gain another Retool in your hand, you'll need a different card to trash when you play the new Retool. Never mind then!

[Squidd]

Maybe Retool costs 4 and you've already Ratted up your deck, so every time you play it you trash a Rats, drawing a card (which is another Rats) and gaining a Retool to hand. I don't know what you were thinking in this game, this is probably a terrible plan.

[RiemannZetaJones]

Maybe Retool costs 4 and you've already Ratted up your deck, so every time you play it you trash a Rats, drawing a card (which is another Rats) and gaining a Retool to hand. I don't know what you were thinking in this game, this is probably a terrible plan.

The best victories are the surprise victories that come from running down three piles before anyone expects.