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[Thisisnotasmile]

Can someone tell me why Overgrown Estate is a Victory card if it does not give you any VP's By that logic, all cards could be X-Victory with it granting 0 VP's. Suddenly, Scout and Tribute are incredible! Crossroads is the new Madman!

Or... Overgrown Estate should just be Shelter.

Why is Horn of Plenty a Treasure when it gives $0?

[Donald X.]

Can someone tell me why Overgrown Estate is a Victory card if it does not give you any VP's

For flavor! And it does make a difference functionally.

[jotheonah]

Can someone tell me why Overgrown Estate is a Victory card if it does not give you any VP's By that logic, all cards could be X-Victory with it granting 0 VP's. Suddenly, Scout and Tribute are incredible! Crossroads is the new Madman!

Or... Overgrown Estate should just be Shelter.

Why is Horn of Plenty a Treasure when it gives $0?

All we need now is an action card that doesn't do anything.

(cue jokes about Scout, Adventurer, CHancellor, and whatever other cards people love to hate)

[shMerker]

Ruined Great Hall - $0
Action - Victory
1 VP

[shMerker]

Can someone tell me why Overgrown Estate is a Victory card if it does not give you any VP's By that logic, all cards could be X-Victory with it granting 0 VP's. Suddenly, Scout and Tribute are incredible! Crossroads is the new Madman!

Or... Overgrown Estate should just be Shelter.

You forgot about Silk Road and Transmute.

[werothegreat]

Can someone tell me why Overgrown Estate is a Victory card if it does not give you any VP's By that logic, all cards could be X-Victory with it granting 0 VP's. Suddenly, Scout and Tribute are incredible! Crossroads is the new Madman!

Or... Overgrown Estate should just be Shelter.

You forgot about Silk Road and Transmute.

Hold the phone... what happens when you Transmute a Great Hall?  Do you get a Duchy and a Gold?

[LastFootnote]

Can someone tell me why Overgrown Estate is a Victory card if it does not give you any VP's By that logic, all cards could be X-Victory with it granting 0 VP's. Suddenly, Scout and Tribute are incredible! Crossroads is the new Madman!

Or... Overgrown Estate should just be Shelter.

You forgot about Silk Road and Transmute.

Hold the phone... what happens when you Transmute a Great Hall?  Do you get a Duchy and a Gold?

Yes.

[blueblimp]

Haven't seen much discussion of this yet, but wow what a huge nerf to Ambassador. It's already a bit weaker in Dark Ages, relative to other trashers, because it doesn't get on-trash benefits. But with shelters in play that you can't get rid of with Amb... wow. It becomes pretty weak. Maybe still playable (since Necropolis serves as an engine component, and you can buy an Estate to trash Hovel, then return it), but much less dominating than pre-Dark Ages.

[Beyond Awesome]

Haven't seen much discussion of this yet, but wow what a huge nerf to Ambassador. It's already a bit weaker in Dark Ages, relative to other trashers, because it doesn't get on-trash benefits. But with shelters in play that you can't get rid of with Amb... wow. It becomes pretty weak. Maybe still playable (since Necropolis serves as an engine component, and you can buy an Estate to trash Hovel, then return it), but much less dominating than pre-Dark Ages.

Ambassador is still a power card, but you are right, both Shelters and Ruins do weaken Ambassador. I guess this is a good thing. That card is a bit on the strong side. I still think it will be the #1 $3 cost card when all is said in done though.

[Young Nick]

Can someone tell me why Overgrown Estate is a Victory card if it does not give you any VP's

For flavor! And it does make a difference functionally.

Yes, I understand this. It just seems like 0 VP is not enough to make Victory a subtype on the card. This could be extrapolated to all others by that logic. I know it may look like nitpicking to you, but for me it looks like unnecessary inconsistency among cards, thematics be damned.

Can someone tell me why Overgrown Estate is a Victory card if it does not give you any VP's By that logic, all cards could be X-Victory with it granting 0 VP's. Suddenly, Scout and Tribute are incredible! Crossroads is the new Madman!

Or... Overgrown Estate should just be Shelter.

Why is Horn of Plenty a Treasure when it gives $0?

Because you play it during your buy phase... I mean at least in this case the subtype Treasure makes sense, unlike Overgrown Estate, which is only for thematic consistency. It's not that big of a deal, but in my opinion, maybe change the name to Barn or something like that and drop the 0 VP part of the card.

[bozzball]

You can transmute an overgrown estate into a gold, whereas you could transmute a shed into nothing.

[rinkworks]

"And it does make a difference functionally."  So damn the thematics but what about function?  There are tons of combos that are different just because it has that Victory label on it.  You say "0 VP" could be extrapolated to the other cards, but you can't extrapolate that "Victory" type, and since it has that type it needs something on the card to say how many VP it's worth.  That's not an inconsistency -- it's a consistency.  What would be an inconsistency would be if something called "Overgrown Estate" weren't a Victory card in the first place.

[Donald X.]

Yes, I understand this. It just seems like 0 VP is not enough to make Victory a subtype on the card. This could be extrapolated to all others by that logic. I know it may look like nitpicking to you, but for me it looks like unnecessary inconsistency among cards, thematics be damned.

By convention, victory cards are worth VP. That's just a convention though. What makes a card a victory card is the word "victory" on the bottom line. That's all there is to it.

Overgrown Estate breaks the convention but fits the rule. It does so for both theme and functionality. I am betting more people appreciate this than are bugged by it.

[ehunt]

In one important way, ambassador is buffed; namely, the ambassador/ambassador open is stronger when decks start with a village. (as is ambassador/any other important terminal).

[Young Nick]

"And it does make a difference functionally."  So damn the thematics but what about function?  There are tons of combos that are different just because it has that Victory label on it.  You say "0 VP" could be extrapolated to the other cards, but you can't extrapolate that "Victory" type, and since it has that type it needs something on the card to say how many VP it's worth.  That's not an inconsistency -- it's a consistency.  What would be an inconsistency would be if something called "Overgrown Estate" weren't a Victory card in the first place.

Why could I not put 0 VP on all non-Victory cards and have them be a X-Victory hybrid? Why can I not extrapolate the "Victory" type? It doesn't need the subtype Victory in the first place. It is an inconsistency. It would be inconsistent for an "Overgrown Estate" to not be a Victory card. Why do you think I suggested that the name could have been changed to something else in addition to dropping the "Victory" type.

And, to Donald, I agree that it is merely a convention. However, I am of the belief that the convention should be a straight rule, not one to be broken. If it is to be broken, not in this way by the Overgrown Estate. A Victory card should have something to do with VP's, yet this one does not. It defeats the purpose of the subtype Victory if it has nothing relevant to VP's on it.

[Davio]

You could always Upgrade it to an Estate if you're that bothered by it.

[jonts26]

In one important way, ambassador is buffed; namely, the ambassador/ambassador open is stronger when decks start with a village. (as is ambassador/any other important terminal).

I often open amb/amb but I think it's a huge mistake with shelters. There are only so many coppers to return, and you do need some sort of income, usually a silver will suffice on turns 3/4. I mean, lets say on turn 3 you return 2 coppers and buy nothing. And you draw Amb, Cx3, estate. Well you return the estate and buy a silver. But if you replace that estate with a shelter ... you cant return another 2 coppers otherwise you screw your economy. You'll have a nice thin deck with no copper, no silver, 2 ambs and 3 shelters that just clog things up. No, I think amb/silver becomes the stronger open with shelters.

It might still be reasonable if there is a strong $2 card you want (fool's gold, squire maybe).

[Donald X.]

Why could I not put 0 VP on all non-Victory cards and have them be a X-Victory hybrid?

There is no good reason to, and there are good reasons not to. Whereas there was a good reason to make Overgrown Estate a victory card. Really, it turns out that "I wouldn't do this everywhere" doesn't mean "so I shouldn't do it ever."

Why do you think I suggested that the name could have been changed to something else in addition to dropping the "Victory" type.

I wanted a victory card though. So I made one. Making a different card that wasn't a victory card here would not have been as good.

It defeats the purpose of the subtype Victory if it has nothing relevant to VP's on it.

It doesn't!

[O]

overgrown estate seems worse than just a plain estate..

Apprentice = draw two cards = same
Bishop = one less VP for draw
Remake = gain an estate many games
etc. etc.

[jonts26]

Well you don't expect an estate to fall into disrepair and get better, do you?

[O]

Shelters may not be worth the 1 VP of an Estate, but they are way better to have in your deck.

[Loschmidt]

Yes, I understand this. It just seems like 0 VP is not enough to make Victory a subtype on the card. This could be extrapolated to all others by that logic. I know it may look like nitpicking to you, but for me it looks like unnecessary inconsistency among cards, thematics be damned.

By convention, victory cards are worth VP. That's just a convention though. What makes a card a victory card is the word "victory" on the bottom line. That's all there is to it.

Overgrown Estate breaks the convention but fits the rule. It does so for both theme and functionality. I am betting more people appreciate this than are bugged by it.

Count me as not bugged. Actually I'd be considerably more bugged if none of the shelters were victory cards. Victory cards are a nice type that have many interactions, crossroads/transmute/silk road etc.

overgrown estate seems worse than just a plain estate..

Apprentice = draw two cards = same
Bishop = one less VP for draw
Remake = gain an estate many games
etc. etc.

You forgot plain trashers (as opposed to the TfB you've mentioned). So its better when you trash it with chapel/steward and a whole host of DA cards too rats/hermit/other stuff.

Anyway its more interesting

[Qvist]

I just wanted to say: I'm missing the previews.  Hopefully this whole set gets spoiled soon.

[Davio]

I just wanted to say: I'm missing the previews.  Hopefully this whole set gets spoiled soon.

That may create an overload in my head.

[rinkworks]

"And it does make a difference functionally."  So damn the thematics but what about function?  There are tons of combos that are different just because it has that Victory label on it.  You say "0 VP" could be extrapolated to the other cards, but you can't extrapolate that "Victory" type, and since it has that type it needs something on the card to say how many VP it's worth.  That's not an inconsistency -- it's a consistency.  What would be an inconsistency would be if something called "Overgrown Estate" weren't a Victory card in the first place.

Why could I not put 0 VP on all non-Victory cards and have them be a X-Victory hybrid? Why can I not extrapolate the "Victory" type? It doesn't need the subtype Victory in the first place. It is an inconsistency. It would be inconsistent for an "Overgrown Estate" to not be a Victory card. Why do you think I suggested that the name could have been changed to something else in addition to dropping the "Victory" type.

And, to Donald, I agree that it is merely a convention. However, I am of the belief that the convention should be a straight rule, not one to be broken. If it is to be broken, not in this way by the Overgrown Estate. A Victory card should have something to do with VP's, yet this one does not. It defeats the purpose of the subtype Victory if it has nothing relevant to VP's on it.

I don't understand why you're ignoring the functional ramifications, which is the question I put to you in my initial reply.

Why can't you make everything an X-Victory hybrid worth 0 VP?  Because then Scout is a triple-Laboratory (an unnecessary buff for what is already a power card!  Zing!).

Card types aren't flavor.