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Author Topic: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman  (Read 144263 times)

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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #100 on: August 08, 2012, 11:28:38 am »
0

Cross-posting from the prediction thread.  Haven't read over thoughts yet.

Squire

In general comparison to Steward, Squire is definitely a bit weaker.  This is reflected in the $2 price.  You might buy it for the extra actions or buys if the Kingdom otherwise lacks those resources.

At first glance it looks to be superior to its fellow $2 choice card, Pawn.  But one of the best uses of Pawn is non-terminal +Buy, which you cannot do with Squire.

The most interesting thing is the on-trash effect.  In Kingdoms without trashers, on-trash effects are inaccessible (barring a crazy new DA rule -- trash a card every turn unless you reveal a Shelter??).  When trashing is available, Squire is still pretty narrow.  It's not as reliable as a Feast because you have to line it up with the trasher.

Of non-DA cards, the main ones to Squire would be Familiar and Goons.  Depending on the trashers available, getting a potion is probably an easier route for Familiar.  But it works so well with Goons.  Goons wants heavy trashing too, so you can get down to a nice multi-Goons engine.  Squire can be a moneyless way to get Goons, and it will also act as a source of Actions, and even +Buy to close out your final megaturn!

You might also pick it up in games with heavy trashing where your early economy will be terrible.  You could chapel down to a thin deck and miraculously pop a few Squires into Cultists...

I think Squire will probably have quite narrow use.  But in certain Kingdoms, it will be essential.

Hermit

The trashing is slow, and the benefit is a static mini-Workshop.  However, trashing from the discard is, I think, better than trashing from the hand.  For one thing, you don't lose a card in-hand.  In the mid-to-late game, your discard pile will on average be larger than your hand as well.  Therefore, I expect Hermit will be a fantastic DA-combo-enabler, picking out cards and trashing them for on-trash benefit.

One interesting (3+ card) combo is TR/KC-Hermit-Squire-(Attack card).  TR/KC the Hermit, gain a Squire.  Use the next Hermit to trash the Squire and gain an Attack.  You can even gain another Squire to trash with the next Hermit, if you are so inclined.

Madman

Hermit is also like a delayed one-shot Tactician.  You skip your buy to get a future-Tactician in Madman.  Madman is a little weaker than Tactician, but still pretty good.  You lose out on a +Buy, but it can have a stronger effect if you have a bit of card-drawing ability.  From the wording, it looks like Madman isn't throneable.  Too bad.
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Grujah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #101 on: August 08, 2012, 11:28:53 am »
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I guess you can now draw cards in buy phase? Buy Cultist, and trash it with Watchtower? That's wierd. Not that you get any use of it, you can't play more treasure...

Actually, you can get use of it.
You can trash stuff in buy phase with Watchtower/Farmland (Also with Noble Brigand, but doesn't matter yet) and draw:
Watchtower or Trader - which you CAN use for your second buy.
any cards (like, a gold) that you can farmland into something useful with your second buy.
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Vampyroteuthis Infernalis

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #102 on: August 08, 2012, 11:29:06 am »
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Thoughts about Hermit/Madman:

(1) Will be stronger on boards with junkers, on colony boards (for getting to a quick platinum maybe), on boards with good cards costing 3 or less (not getting a card above 3 on your turn = less painful).

(2) Good opener because of the estate trashing. Predicted pet peeve, though: drawing Hermit turn 3 with no estates.

(3) It puts you on a more reliable track for an early super turn than going for Tactician. With Tactician, you have to depend on hitting 5 money. If you're lucky, you get a five on turn 3 or 4, then sacrifice a turn playing Tactician when it comes back around, then get the super turn. Open with Hermit, get Madman for sure before the second reshuffle, play Madman. So speed-wise, they're about the same, but Hermit is more reliable. Also, gaining a 3 cost card on turn 3 or 4 seems less painful than giving up turn 5 or 6 completely with Tactician.

(4) Unlike Tactician, though, Hermit/Madman doesn't come with +Buy. BYOB.

(5) Choosing whether to delay playing Madman (keep wanting to say Mad Men) should be an interesting tactical problem.
   
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jonts26

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #103 on: August 08, 2012, 11:33:40 am »
+1

@eHalcyon: I think you are underselling squire a lot. If you only ever used it for actions, it's still a fairly decent engine card because hey, you usually need a village. It also gives +buy, another essential engine component. I think the attack gaining portion will be fairly narrow, but the rest of the card is really good.

EDIT: This was my 941st post, which finally gives me more than guided, who hasn't posted in 7 months.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 11:35:16 am by jonts26 »
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #104 on: August 08, 2012, 11:34:16 am »
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ACtually possession does have an interesting interaction with Madman. If you get possessed and someone plays your madman, it goes back to the supply. It's not trashed so it never comes back to your hand. Which really sucks considering how strong it is/how hard it is to get in the first place.

Good catch! Yet another reason why I think it was a mistake to not label Possession an attack. There are so many ways to harm your opponent when you possess him. Now we can add Madman to the worst two so far (Ambassador and Masquerade).

EDIT: typo
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 11:46:59 am by Varsinor »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #105 on: August 08, 2012, 11:36:25 am »
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@eHalcyon: I think you are underselling squire a lot. If you only ever used it for actions, it's still a fairly decent engine card because hey, you usually need a village. It also gives +buy, another essential engine component. I think the attack gaining portion will be fairly narrow, but the rest of the card is really good.

Oh, absolutely.  But I think Steward is still better for its trashing.  Maybe I'm overvaluing trashing though.  I also expect that I would pick most other sources of +Action over Squire.  Not sure though.

Oh, and I predict that there will be a new expensive DA attack card called Knight, so as to match the Squire.
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zahlman

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #106 on: August 08, 2012, 11:37:54 am »
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You can Remodel a Squire into a Remodel and a Familiar.

You can Develop a Squire into a Fishing Village (or Watchtower?) and a Poor House and a Goons. :O
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #107 on: August 08, 2012, 11:38:47 am »
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In all this Madman craziness, I think we're ignoring how useful Hermit can be in its own right. The ability to trash cards that aren't in your hand is significant. In games with Curse-givers and/or Looters, it's a powerful deck thinner. It gains you a Silver (for Big Money) or a Village (for your engine) in the bargain. If you're so bogged down with bad cards that you know you won't buy anything this turn, you can use Hermit to gain another Hermit and turn your current one into a Madman.

Quoted for truth. For instance, Hermit's trashing ability looks way better than Lookouts for the same price to me for sure (even though Lookout gives itself its own action).
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AJD

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #108 on: August 08, 2012, 11:40:43 am »
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Now, I think I know the answer to this, but I just want to make sure - can a Scheme save a Hermit from Madness?

Scheme says: "If you discard it from play, put it on your deck."

Hermit says: "When you discard this from play..."

Scheme does not say "if you WOULD discard", so I'm assuming this means you have to discard it from play, then put it on your deck, which means it would trigger Hermit in a turn without a Buy, and Scheme can do nothing to save it.

Not that I'd really want to save the Hermit from madness; this is purely academical.
Even though Scheme says "if" rather than "when," it's the same timing as "when" - both cards do something when Hermit is discarded from play. So you pick what order to resolve the effects. If you resolve Hermit first, Scheme will be unable to find Hermit in the trash, due to the lose track rule (which is in the Dark Ages rulebook). If you resolve Scheme first, Hermit will be unable to trash itself, but will still gain you a Madman (there's no "if you do" there).

It's a good thing the lose-track rule is in the Dark Ages rulebook—this sounds like a combo people might actually want to take advantage of, unlike most of the weird effects created by the lose-track rule that have come up occasionally.
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jonts26

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #109 on: August 08, 2012, 11:41:00 am »
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@eHalcyon: I think you are underselling squire a lot. If you only ever used it for actions, it's still a fairly decent engine card because hey, you usually need a village. It also gives +buy, another essential engine component. I think the attack gaining portion will be fairly narrow, but the rest of the card is really good.

Oh, absolutely.  But I think Steward is still better for its trashing.  Maybe I'm overvaluing trashing though.  I also expect that I would pick most other sources of +Action over Squire.  Not sure though.

Oh, and I predict that there will be a new expensive DA attack card called Knight, so as to match the Squire.

It might not be as good as steward, but I think it could also be better. Trashing is very nice for engines, and I think it's more critical when your village doesn't give +card. So squire is probably on the worse end of the villages, if it didn't give the option for +buy. But the buys coupled with how cheap it is (think hamlet) will let you overload on these a bit, which you sort of need to compensate for the lack of card draw. I don't know that it will be placed higher than hamlet, but I could easily see this card in the top 5 $2 cards. And that's without the attack gaining portion.

Also steward and squire in the same kingdom could lead to some crazy quick engines. Open steward/steward, use stewards to trash 2 and pick up a squire with the leftover money. It will also be awesome with remake for the same reason.
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #110 on: August 08, 2012, 11:45:09 am »
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Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but Trickster and Saboteur (as if the latter had needed that ;)) seem to get considerably weaker with all these cards with on-trash-abilities!
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #111 on: August 08, 2012, 11:45:39 am »
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It might not be as good as steward, but I think it could also be better. Trashing is very nice for engines, and I think it's more critical when your village doesn't give +card. So squire is probably on the worse end of the villages, if it didn't give the option for +buy. But the buys coupled with how cheap it is (think hamlet) will let you overload on these a bit, which you sort of need to compensate for the lack of card draw. I don't know that it will be placed higher than hamlet, but I could easily see this card in the top 5 $2 cards. And that's without the attack gaining portion.

Also steward and squire in the same kingdom could lead to some crazy quick engines. Open steward/steward, use stewards to trash 2 and pick up a squire with the leftover money. It will also be awesome with remake for the same reason.

Overloading might be dangerous unless you have a source of +cards.  Granted, Squire comes with its own $1, but it's not a lot.

I think it is a very strong $2 and would still be decent at $3.  Maybe it's $2 because it is almost strictly weaker than FV (not actually strictly because of +Buy and on-trash effect).

Still reading thread; I wonder if anything I said has been covered already!  I have responses to some early comments but will keep reading so as not to repeat things.
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Squeek

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #112 on: August 08, 2012, 11:49:23 am »
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With Inn you could be running a Gardens/feoda mega deck and end up drawing all of it in one mega turn.

If s is your starting hand size and n is the number of madmen you've played, your handsize is:
(s-2)*2^n + 2

For example, 5 cards + no madmen=(5-2)*2^0 +2=5
5 cards + 4 madmen = (5-2)*2^4+2=50
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DrFlux

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #113 on: August 08, 2012, 11:52:59 am »
+1

I really like squire. I think its silly to compare it steward, as its functions are very different.

As a village its liked a gimped fishing village, and a little worse than vanilla village: I'd rather have a card than $1 on a village. However, the extra flexibility is great: with other villages on the board I'd probably try for a mix, for access to the +buy.

I also like that the options also have some BM-applications. I wouldn't try to pick up lots, but I'd grab one with an early $2 for the silvers, and it has less of a problem of terminal collision, since you can play it as a village.

Finally, its just about all you want in a disappearing village (for JOAT, Watchtower, library). Its cheap, provides money, and a +buy all in one! That's where I look forward to playing it the most!

All in all I think its a beautifully designed card.
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lespeutere

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #114 on: August 08, 2012, 11:54:59 am »
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Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but Trickster and Saboteur (as if the latter had needed that ;)) seem to get considerably weaker with all these cards with on-trash-abilities!
Anybody guessing correctly what 'trickster' should be? ;-) Any other language but German naming it close to 'trickser'?
It's still 'swindler' here.
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Tdog

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #115 on: August 08, 2012, 11:56:07 am »
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Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but Trickster and Saboteur (as if the latter had needed that ;)) seem to get considerably weaker with all these cards with on-trash-abilities!

What's trickster?
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zahlman

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #116 on: August 08, 2012, 11:58:16 am »
+1

Gaining and top decking any attack: $2
Gaining and top decking 3 silvers: $4
Cycling through 3 cards, accelerating your deck: $5

Discovering new and awesome combos through a huge amount of new and powerful cards: Priceless.

There are some things coins and potions can't buy (i.e. prizes).

For everything else, there's Watchtower(tm).
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Qvist

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #117 on: August 08, 2012, 12:07:45 pm »
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I'm not sure where to put this, I just write it here.

Quote from: donaldx@BGG
Dark Ages has zero blanks.
Hurray!
Now you can start counting!

WanderingWinder

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #118 on: August 08, 2012, 12:15:50 pm »
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I'm not sure where to put this, I just write it here.

Quote from: donaldx@BGG
Dark Ages has zero blanks.
Hurray!
Now you can start counting!
35 Kingdom cards*10 + 2-upgrade-into-this cards*10 + 50 ruins = 420/500. This leaves 80 cards for shelters, victory cards (we know that will be at least 2, due to feodum), and...... that seems like a LOT of shelters.

LastFootnote

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #119 on: August 08, 2012, 12:17:07 pm »
+1

I'm not sure where to put this, I just write it here.

Quote from: donaldx@BGG
Dark Ages has zero blanks.
Hurray!
Now you can start counting!

As I mentioned in that thread, it begs the question of what all the extra cards will be used for. So far we know there will be:

At least 352 Kingdom cards (35 different ones, at least one of which is a Victory card)
Between 20 and 22 cards like Madman that can be gained by trashing another card
Exactly 50 Ruins cards
Exactly 35 randomizers

That leaves as many as 43 cards unaccounted for. Shelters could be any number of those cards. Perhaps there are 30 of them that you randomize, like Ruins.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 12:18:55 pm by LastFootnote »
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Qvist

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #120 on: August 08, 2012, 12:18:43 pm »
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and...... that seems like a LOT of shelters.
That's what I'm hinting at. Either a lot of shelters or a lot of surprises still waiting...

WanderingWinder

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #121 on: August 08, 2012, 12:19:18 pm »
0

I'm not sure where to put this, I just write it here.

Quote from: donaldx@BGG
Dark Ages has zero blanks.
Hurray!
Now you can start counting!

As I mentioned in that thread, it begs the question of what all the extra cards will be used for. So far we know there will be:

At least 352 Kingdom cards (35 different ones, at least one of which is a Victory card)
Between 20 and 22 cards like Madman that can be gained by trashing another card
Exactly 50 Ruins cards
Exactly 35 randomizers

That leaves as many as 63 cards unaccounted for. Shelters could be any number of those cards. Perhaps there are 50 of them that you randomize, like Ruins.
Oh right, duh, randomizers. I would not at all be surprised if they had randomizers for the different ruins, the upgrade-into-this cards, and 1 or more for shelters. I am guessing there are probably different kinds of shelters, at this point.

Axxle

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #122 on: August 08, 2012, 12:21:12 pm »
0

Now I know DX is trolling us.  Gaining from trash card, $1 cost card, and now a +2 buys card?
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We might be from all over the world, but "we all talk this one language  : +1 card + 1 action +1 buy , gain , discard, trash... " - RTT

Cuzz

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #123 on: August 08, 2012, 12:22:52 pm »
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With so many cards unaccounted for, do we have a good reason for assuming there's only 35 kingdom cards? Has Donald confirmed this?
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #124 on: August 08, 2012, 12:25:20 pm »
0

I'm not sure where to put this, I just write it here.

Quote from: donaldx@BGG
Dark Ages has zero blanks.
Hurray!
Now you can start counting!

As I mentioned in that thread, it begs the question of what all the extra cards will be used for. So far we know there will be:

At least 352 Kingdom cards (35 different ones, at least one of which is a Victory card)
Between 20 and 22 cards like Madman that can be gained by trashing another card
Exactly 50 Ruins cards
Exactly 35 randomizers

That leaves as many as 43 cards unaccounted for. Shelters could be any number of those cards. Perhaps there are 30 of them that you randomize, like Ruins.

Donald X has confirmed there are only 35 kingdom cards.  However, he has said that he refuses to say how many differently named cards there are.  So I don't think there will be 40 different Shelters.  I think we may have some more Tournament-ish cards, or something like that.
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