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[Tables]

This is the thread for Resistance II

Rules of Resistance

Resistance is a mafia-like game of social deduction. There are two teams - one consisting of a number of Empire Spies (between 2-4 depending on number of players), each of whom knows all the other spies - and one team of Resistance members, who know nothing but the fact that they themselves are Resistance. The Resistance are trying to overthrow the empire by conducting three successful missions - each requiring the full co-operation of everyone on the team. The spies, on the other hand, want to sabotage said missions - if they can sabotage three missions, then the Resistance crumbles and they win.

At the start of the game, the leader is randomly chosen, as well as the succession of the leader. The leader's job is to choose a team of between 2-5 operatives (depending on number of players and mission number), to attempt the next mission. After the leader proposes his team, everyone (including himself) gets to vote yes or no to that proposal. If a majority say yes, the mission goes ahead with that team. Otherwise, leadership passes to the next person in the succession (this goes in a circle - the last person passes leadership to the first person). Voting is done simultaneously - to simulate that here, all votes will be sent via PM to the mod (that's me!).

Be warned: if 5 proposals fail in a row, for any reasons (plot cards can affect this, if they are being used), then the Resistance fails due to it's lack of leadership and the spies instantly win!

If the proposal passes, then each person on the mission can choose to sabotage or support the mission. Spies have free choice in this, and while they need to sabotage to win they might support as a strategic move. Resistance members MUST support the mission. After everyone has chosen, the results are revealed. In real life, this would be done with cards which are then shuffled and revealed. Here, I only need the spies decisions, all done via PM.

If a mission has even a single sabotage*, it fails and the spies get a point. If a mission has nothing but successes, however, it passes, and the Resistance gets a point. Regardless of if a mission passes or fails, leadership moves on to the next person. Whichever team reaches three points first wins.

*The 4th mission requires TWO sabotages to fail. The mission will succeed if only one spy sabotages.

We are using the Plot Thickens plot cards variant in this game

Plot cards are a deck of 15 cards which are drawn by the leader at the start of each ROUND (that is, the very first leader of the game, and then every leader after a mission only). 2 cards are drawn each round and must be immediately distributed.

here is a picture of the plot cards. These are the following numbers of cards:

No Confidence x3
Keeping a Close Eye on You x2
Opinion Maker x2
Overheard conversation x2
Strong Leader x2
Establish Confidence
In the Spotlight
Open Up
Take Responsibility

Deadlines

For the first leader in each round, the leader will have a 5 day deadline for giving out the plot card, and a 6 day deadline running concurrently to propose a team (the plot card must be distributed first). Missing the plot card deadline will result in a random person chosen, missing the team proposal deadline will result in a random team being chosen.

For the second and onward leader in each round, the leader will have a 5 day deadline for proposing a team.

Voting will have a 2 day deadline from the team being proposed. Failure to vote will result in a no vote being cast. Voting will end early once all votes are in and I have seen them all.

Missions will have a 1 day deadline. Only spies need to submit a decision for the mission. They may submit their choice in advance with their vote for the mission. Missions will never end early unless the game will end as a result of the mission - this is to protect the spies right to think in cases they need to make a non-trivial decision (e.g. both are on a mission). In the rare case of a spy missing the submission for a mission they will default to sabotage.

I will not wait for plot cards people have in cases they can be played, with the exception of Opinion Maker (see below). If you have a plot card, please leave CO (conditional orders) for when you want to use them. If you are very likely to want to use a plot card but need to see certain results to decide on whom (this mostly applies to Keeping a Close Eye on You) I will allow you to CO for me to wait for you on that.

If/when opinion maker is in the game, I will give a minimum of 1 day for voting after the opinion maker's vote has been cast. You may still wish to CO (conditional order) your vote depending on how the opinion maker does vote.

The role PMs in this game look like this:

You are a resistance operative



You win if the resistance succeed on 3 missions. You lose if the spies sabotage 3 missions

You are a spy



The (two/three/four) spies are:
W
X
(Y)
(Z)

You win if the spies successfully sabotage 3 missions. You lose if the resistance complete 3 missions

Finally rules. Shamelessly stolen and adapted from Axxle, who stole them from Mafiascum.

General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings. This includes Spies!
3. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 48 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.
4: You may talk at ALL stages of the game. This means during proposals, voting, and missions. There is never a period where communication is banned.

Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold, blue text is reserved for the Mod.
2. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography, or obscuring text in any way.
3. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mod privately. Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
4. The Mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
5. Please bold and double hashtag ## all requests to the Mod so that they don’t get missed. This includes all final actions (giving out plot cards, proposing a team, public vote if you have Opinion Maker).
6. Prods of missing players will be issued automatically after 72 hours of no activity or upon request after 48 hours of no activity. A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement. A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
7. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity.
8. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.

[Tables]

The player order has been randomised. Leadership will pass down this list and loop back to the top at the end.
ftl
Cayvie
Robz888
Qvist
Axxle Imsomniac
Grujah
Galzria

(Current Leader is in bold as of mission 3.5)

Three of these players are spies. Four are Resistance.

---

This is the number of operatives needed on each mission:
Mission 1: 2 operatives Mission 1 SUCCESSFUL
Mission 2: 3 operatives Mission 2 SUCCESSFUL
Mission 3: 3 operatives Mission 3 FAILED
Mission 4: 4* operatives
Mission 5: 4 operatives

*Mission 4 requires TWO sabotage cards to fail. The mission will succeed if there is exactly one or no sabotage card.

---

Round 1: ftl drew the plot cards Open Up and Opinion Maker
Opinion Maker: Given to Galzria
Open Up: Given to Robz. Robz showed his character card to Qvist

Round 2: Robz888 drew the plot cards Take Responsibility and Keeping a Close Eye on You
Take Responsibility: Given to ftl, who used it to take Keeping a Close Eye on You from Qvist
Keeping a Close Eye on You: Given to Qvist, then taken by Take Responsibility by ftl. ftl used this on Galzria in mission 2.

Round 3: ftl drew the plot cards Opinion Maker and In the Spotlight
Opinion Maker: Given to Insomniac
In the Spotlight: Given to Robz888, used on Galzria, mission 3

Round 4: Cayvie drew the plot cards No Confidence and No Confidence
No Confidence: Not distributed yet
No Confidence: Not distributed yet

---

Mission 1.1 proposed by: ftl:
Team Proposed: ftl, Robz888
Voting YES: ftl, Robz888, Qvist
Voting NO: Cayvie, Axxle, Grujah, Galzria
Result: Yes - 3, No - 4
Proposal Fails

Mission 1.2 proposed by: Cayvie:
Team Proposed: Robz888, Qvist
Voting YES: ftl, Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist, Axxle, Grujah, Galzria
Voting NO: None
Result: Yes - 7, No - 0
Proposal passes

Mission 1 Results
Co-operating: 2
Sabotage: 0
Mission succeeds. Score is now Resistance - 1, Spies - 0

---

Mission 2.1 proposed by: Robz888:
Team Proposed: Robz888, Qvist, Galzria
Voting YES: Cayvie, Robz888, Galzria
Voting NO: ftl, Qvist, Axxle, Grujah
Result: Yes - 3, No - 4
Proposal Fails

Mission 2.2 proposed by: Qvist:
Team Proposed: Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist
Voting YES: Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist
Voting NO: ftl, Axxle, Grujah, Galzria
Result: Yes - 3, No - 4
Proposal Fails

Mission 2.3 proposed by: Axxle:
Team Proposed: Cayvie, Robz888, Axxle
Voting YES: Axxle
Voting NO: ftl, Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist, Grujah, Galzria
Result: Yes - 1, No - 6
Proposal Fails

Mission 2.4 proposed by: Grujah:
Team Proposed: Robz888, Qvist, Grujah
Voting YES: Grujah
Voting NO: ftl, Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist, Axxle, Galzria
Result: Yes - 1, No - 6
Proposal Fails

Mission 2.5 proposed by: Galzria:
Team Proposed: Robz888, Qvist, Galzria
Voting YES: ftl, Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist, Axxle, Grujah, Galzria
Voting NO: None
Result: Yes - 7, No - 0
Proposal passes

Mission 2 Results
Co-operating: 3
Sabotage: 0
Mission succeeds. Score is now Resistance - 2, Spies - 0

---

Mission 3.1 proposed by: ftl:
Team Proposed: Robz888, Qvist, Galzria
Voting YES: ftl, Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist, Insomniac, Grujah, Galzria
Voting NO: None
Result: Yes - 7, No - 0
Proposal passes

Mission 3 Results
Co-operating: 2
Sabotage: 1
Mission fails. Score is now Resistance - 2, Spies - 1

---

[Tables]

The game has begun.

ftl is the current leader. ftl draws the plot cards Open Up and Opinion Maker. ftl has 5 days from this post to distribute these plot cards and 6 days from this post to make his first proposal.

(Useful link)

[Robz888]

Since I am a member of the Resistance, I volunteer to take the plot card Open Up. I will share my alignment with whomever the rest of the players deems best.

[Axxle]

Since I am a member of the Resistance, I volunteer to take the plot card Open Up. I will share my alignment with whomever the rest of the players deems best.

Shouldn't you be advocating giving it to a spy so we can catch them?

[Robz888]

Since I am a member of the Resistance, I volunteer to take the plot card Open Up. I will share my alignment with whomever the rest of the players deems best.

Shouldn't you be advocating giving it to a spy so we can catch them?

I thought that this was a good way to confirm my Resistance status. We don't (and won't) have any idea who the Spies are until the first mission.

[Grujah]

When does Open Up resolve?

Anyway, is confirming Resistance really better than finding out spies?
And I agree that its best for all of us to pick whom to reveal the card to, whomever gets it.

[Galzria]

Alright, Opinion Maker is straightforward, if a bit random at this point.

Open-Up provides an interesting dilemma:

Asume two players, A and B, where A reveals to B:

A is spy, B is spy:

B claims A is Resistance - Most Likely
B claims A is Spy - Gains some Resistance cred for B: Risky Gambit though, outing a partner this early.

A is spy, B is Resistance:

B claims A is Resistance - Uhh, no.
B claims A is a Spy - Gains some Resistance cred, plus outs a Spy!

A is Resistance, B is a Spy:

B claims A is Resistance - A gains some Resistance cred
B claims A is a Spy - B gains some Resistance cred, plus puts out a false reading on A

A is Resistance, B is Resistance:

If anything but Resistance claims happen here I would go berserk.

Given the above, we could only see "Spy" be claimed in 3 cases:

A:B

Spy:Spy - Not likely
Spy:Resistance - Always(?)
Resistance:Spy - Sometimes. WIFOM there.

The number of ways Resistance gets claimed seem much higher:

A:B

Spy:Spy - Likely outcome
Resistance:Spy - Sometimes. WIFOM there.
Resistance:Resistance - Anything else and I'll find whoever did this and punch them.

The end result of this is that it's mostly random, but I would be slightly more inclined to believe a Spy reveal over a Resistance one.

Is there an error in my logic? Obviously if ftl is a Spy he'll have an interesting choice to make on who to give it to. If he's Resistance he should randomly decide, seeing as he's faced with 6 unknowns all claiming Resistance (Yes Robz, I too claim Resistance) - Unless someone wants to admit now to being a spy? Grujah? Robz (it's not too late to change your mind!)? Anyone else?

ftl, I'm willing to be your choice, but if you're Resistance I suggest random assignment.

[Tables]

When does Open Up resolve?

Anyway, is confirming Resistance really better than finding out spies?
And I agree that its best for all of us to pick whom to reveal the card to, whomever gets it.

Open up must be resolved immediately.

[Qvist]

Yeah, let the games begin. It's my first game, so I try to figure out how to play still.


To continue with Galzrias post:

If A is a spy and choose to open up to B, a resistance guy, that would pretty dumb. So he definitely chooses a spy, no matter what B is going to say.
Yes, B could say A is a spy, but that's risky, I agree. Most likely B would say that A is resistance.

If A is resistance he definitely chooses randomly. If B is resistance too, that's straightforward. If B is a spy, it's basically open I would say. He could say the truth to gain reputation or lie to get an advantage.


So I would say, let's give it to a spy. He will give it definitely to a spy. But who is a spy?? At least I know, I don't want the card as I'm resistance.

[Robz888]

Okay, give it to Qvist.

[cayvie]

I think both of these cards should be given to the same player.

I'll volunteer.

[Galzria]

When does Open Up resolve?

Anyway, is confirming Resistance really better than finding out spies?
And I agree that its best for all of us to pick whom to reveal the card to, whomever gets it.

Open up must be resolved immediately.

## Sorry Tables, can I get this clarified a step further?

Does ftl have to assign them at the same time?

If he signs Open Up first, is it resolved before he assigns Opinion Maker? (I believe this is the case)

So: Can ftl assign Open Up, resolve, then assign Opinion Maker based on the results?

[Galzria]

If the above is the case, ftl should assign Open Up, then resolve. If it's claimed that the revealed role is "Spy", then Opinion Maker should go to the "Spy".

If it's claimed "Resistance" was revealed, Opinion Maker should go to the person making the claim.

[cayvie]

If the above is the case, ftl should assign Open Up, then resolve. If it's claimed that the revealed role is "Spy", then Opinion Maker should go to the "Spy".

If it's claimed "Resistance" was revealed, Opinion Maker should go to the person making the claim.

I like this plan.

[ftl]

Yeah, I think if I can, I'll give out the Open Up first. Then probably give out Opinion Maker based on that.

If the above is the case, ftl should assign Open Up, then resolve. If it's claimed that the revealed role is "Spy", then Opinion Maker should go to the "Spy".

If it's claimed "Resistance" was revealed, Opinion Maker should go to the person making the claim.

I'm not sure I want to be promising something like that. I think I'd rather give Opinion Maker to a third person entirely, somebody who we have no information about, so we can get more information about them maybe? What do you all think

[Qvist]

Okay, give it to Qvist.

Haha, so you do think I'm a spy? Only a spy could say something like that.

If the above is the case, ftl should assign Open Up, then resolve. If it's claimed that the revealed role is "Spy", then Opinion Maker should go to the "Spy".

If it's claimed "Resistance" was revealed, Opinion Maker should go to the person making the claim.

I like this plan.

I agree...

I think both of these cards should be given to the same player.

I'll volunteer.

You say that after I just pointed out the card should go to a spy?
As (s)he is the next leader it would be nice to have more information. So I agree here. cayvie should get at least the "Open Up".

[Tables]

When does Open Up resolve?

Anyway, is confirming Resistance really better than finding out spies?
And I agree that its best for all of us to pick whom to reveal the card to, whomever gets it.

Open up must be resolved immediately.

## Sorry Tables, can I get this clarified a step further?

Does ftl have to assign them at the same time?

If he signs Open Up first, is it resolved before he assigns Opinion Maker? (I believe this is the case)

So: Can ftl assign Open Up, resolve, then assign Opinion Maker based on the results?

I don't have the rules available easily anymore, but unless someone can explicitly check and show otherwise, I'd rule that both Plot Cards must be distributed first. This is because, as far as I recall, plot cards are always fully distributed before their effects happen, and the effects then happen clockwise (leader order) in case of same-timing, starting with the Leader.

[ftl]

OK, second thought - I think I should give Open Up to the 5th person in line. It's likely their team that will get accepted for Mission 1 if we can't agree on anything before that, that's how such things go, right? and if we find out he's a spy from the Open Up, we can just accept the 4th mission as our last resort instead of letting it go to a fifth.

Who he reveals the card to should be randomized. I'd certainly want to be the one to see it since I don't trust any of you and I know I'm Resistance, but none of you have any reason to trust me either, so I'll randomize. And we have to follow that, that one is important.

...I don't think that we find out who to give Opinion Maker due to the result of the open up.

If Spy is claimed, that just means one of the two is a spy, we don't know which. If Resistance is claimed, then that gives fairly little information immediately, though it'll be useful for analysis later, I don't think I could clear either of the two immediately. PROBABLY not the one who was described as Resistance - unless they're both spies! Which is also possible.

I think an opinion maker in round 1 should be used for gathering more information, and should go to a third person entirely.

[ftl]

I don't have the rules available easily anymore, but unless someone can explicitly check and show otherwise, I'd rule that both Plot Cards must be distributed first. This is because, as far as I recall, plot cards are always fully distributed before their effects happen, and the effects then happen clockwise (leader order) in case of same-timing, starting with the Leader.[/color]

OK, I'll distribute both of them before anything is resolved.

[Galzria]

OK, second thought - I think I should give Open Up to the 5th person in line. It's likely their team that will get accepted for Mission 1 if we can't agree on anything before that, that's how such things go, right? and if we find out he's a spy from the Open Up, we can just accept the 4th mission as our last resort instead of letting it go to a fifth.

Who he reveals the card to should be randomized. I'd certainly want to be the one to see it since I don't trust any of you and I know I'm Resistance, but none of you have any reason to trust me either, so I'll randomize. And we have to follow that, that one is important.

...I don't think that we find out who to give Opinion Maker due to the result of the open up.

If Spy is claimed, that just means one of the two is a spy, we don't know which. If Resistance is claimed, then that gives fairly little information immediately, though it'll be useful for analysis later, I don't think I could clear either of the two immediately. PROBABLY not the one who was described as Resistance - unless they're both spies! Which is also possible.

I think an opinion maker in round 1 should be used for gathering more information, and should go to a third person entirely.

Like I said: From a Resistance perspective, I think you should randomly distribute Open-Up. I also think the person to whom the role is revealed should be random. If you're a Spy, which I can't trust you're NOT, how do I know you're not manipulating outcomes?

Even if you give it to the 5th person, if he comes up "Resistance", we still can't really trust him. If he comes back "Spy", that could be false as well. (See: Resistance reveals to Spy in my first post). So how does giving it there tell us anything noteworthy except that you wanted to pick?

[Axxle]

Rereading Open Up:

It has the star in the bottom left hand corner.

This means that the leader (FTL) has to reveal HIS card to someone else.

[Axxle]

Rereading Open Up:

It has the star in the bottom left hand corner.

This means that the leader (FTL) has to reveal HIS card to someone else.

Oh wait, never mind. I might be wrong.

[Galzria]

Start at 6:45

[Galzria]

Rereading Open Up:

It has the star in the bottom left hand corner.

This means that the leader (FTL) has to reveal HIS card to someone else.

Oh wait, never mind. I might be wrong.

Establish Confidence does what you suggested. Watch the Youtube video I linked there (all 10 minutes is good info)

[ftl]

Ok, sure, I'll generate random numbers. First one: who I'm giving the Open Up card to. Last digit of the timestamp of this post.

1 Cayvie
2 Robz888
3 Qvist
4 Axxle
5 Grujah
6 Galzria

7,8,9,0: redo

[Axxle]

True randomness is anti-resistance since we can't analyze your choices.

[ftl]

Ok, randomness said I'll give Robz the card. (Note that this is not bolded, not an order yet, to give people a chance to weigh in)

Robz should show his role to:

1 ftl
2 Cayvie
3 Qvist
4 Axxle
5 Grujah
6 Galzria
7,8,9,0: redo randomness

[ftl]

(redoing random)

Also, I should have waited for everyone before doing that, I rushed, Axxle has a point too.

[Galzria]

(redoing random)

Also, I should have waited for everyone before doing that, I rushed, Axxle has a point too.

Well, you haven't assigned, which is good, but I still think random is best.

[Galzria]

True randomness is anti-resistance since we can't analyze your choices.

I agree in theory. But practically, we don't know ftl's alignment. If he's a Spy, allowing him to chose would be fairly bad for Resistance, and here's why:

If Spy ftl chooses to give Open Up to a fellow Spy, that person must then reveal to player X. If player X is Resistance, they declare the recipient of OU to be a Spy. Since ftl chose the recipient, I do not want him in the pool to be player X. This means of 5 players, 4 are Resistance and will expose his teammate. Very bad odds for him.

Thus, Spy ftl would choose to give OU to a Resistance. Again, eliminating ftl from the Player X pool, there are 2 Spy's amongst 5 players who could see the reveal. 40% of the time, Spy's will finger an innocent Resistance, causing massive difficulty for the Resistance.

I don't know about you, but 40% is worryingly high for my tastes.

As Resistance, ftl choosing makes the odds even worse, as you've taken out a Resistance from the pool, and added in a Spy.

Thus by randomizing, ftl's name can be added to the "player X" pool. If he's Resistance that's great. If he's a Spy, we've forced him to possibly hand OU to a partner, in exchange for ftl being in the pool. Resistance still gets 4/6 odds of being chosen at that point to be player X.

[Galzria]

True randomness is anti-resistance since we can't analyze your choices.

I agree in theory. But practically, we don't know ftl's alignment. If he's a Spy, allowing him to chose would be fairly bad for Resistance, and here's why:

If Spy ftl chooses to give Open Up to a fellow Spy, that person must then reveal to player X. If player X is Resistance, they declare the recipient of OU to be a Spy. Since ftl chose the recipient, I do not want him in the pool to be player X. This means of 5 players, 4 are Resistance and will expose his teammate. Very bad odds for him.

Thus, Spy ftl would choose to give OU to a Resistance. Again, eliminating ftl from the Player X pool, there are 2 Spy's amongst 5 players who could see the reveal. 40% of the time, Spy's will finger an innocent Resistance, causing massive difficulty for the Resistance.

I don't know about you, but 40% is worryingly high for my tastes.

As Resistance, ftl choosing makes the odds even worse, as you've taken out a Resistance from the pool, and added in a Spy.

Thus by randomizing, ftl's name can be added to the "player X" pool. If he's Resistance that's great. If he's a Spy, we've forced him to possibly hand OU to a partner, in exchange for ftl being in the pool. Resistance still gets 4/6 odds of being chosen at that point to be player X.

*So I am fine with ftl following his timestamps post above, and think Robz should be the recipient. Who he reveals to needs to be redone (timestamp ended in 0).

[cayvie]

True randomness is anti-resistance since we can't analyze your choices.

I agree in theory. But practically, we don't know ftl's alignment. If he's a Spy, allowing him to chose would be fairly bad for Resistance, and here's why:

If Spy ftl chooses to give Open Up to a fellow Spy, that person must then reveal to player X. If player X is Resistance, they declare the recipient of OU to be a Spy. Since ftl chose the recipient, I do not want him in the pool to be player X. This means of 5 players, 4 are Resistance and will expose his teammate. Very bad odds for him.

Thus, Spy ftl would choose to give OU to a Resistance. Again, eliminating ftl from the Player X pool, there are 2 Spy's amongst 5 players who could see the reveal. 40% of the time, Spy's will finger an innocent Resistance, causing massive difficulty for the Resistance.

I don't know about you, but 40% is worryingly high for my tastes.

As Resistance, ftl choosing makes the odds even worse, as you've taken out a Resistance from the pool, and added in a Spy.

Thus by randomizing, ftl's name can be added to the "player X" pool. If he's Resistance that's great. If he's a Spy, we've forced him to possibly hand OU to a partner, in exchange for ftl being in the pool. Resistance still gets 4/6 odds of being chosen at that point to be player X.

*So I am fine with ftl following his timestamps post above, and think Robz should be the recipient. Who he reveals to needs to be redone (timestamp ended in 0).

I think he did redo, and got a 3 for Qvist.

[Galzria]

True randomness is anti-resistance since we can't analyze your choices.

I agree in theory. But practically, we don't know ftl's alignment. If he's a Spy, allowing him to chose would be fairly bad for Resistance, and here's why:

If Spy ftl chooses to give Open Up to a fellow Spy, that person must then reveal to player X. If player X is Resistance, they declare the recipient of OU to be a Spy. Since ftl chose the recipient, I do not want him in the pool to be player X. This means of 5 players, 4 are Resistance and will expose his teammate. Very bad odds for him.

Thus, Spy ftl would choose to give OU to a Resistance. Again, eliminating ftl from the Player X pool, there are 2 Spy's amongst 5 players who could see the reveal. 40% of the time, Spy's will finger an innocent Resistance, causing massive difficulty for the Resistance.

I don't know about you, but 40% is worryingly high for my tastes.

As Resistance, ftl choosing makes the odds even worse, as you've taken out a Resistance from the pool, and added in a Spy.

Thus by randomizing, ftl's name can be added to the "player X" pool. If he's Resistance that's great. If he's a Spy, we've forced him to possibly hand OU to a partner, in exchange for ftl being in the pool. Resistance still gets 4/6 odds of being chosen at that point to be player X.

*So I am fine with ftl following his timestamps post above, and think Robz should be the recipient. Who he reveals to needs to be redone (timestamp ended in 0).

I think he did redo, and got a 3 for Qvist.

Ah, got it. I expected his redo to have the full list again (why? Don't ask me! ).

So based on that, I am fine with:

Robz Opens Up to Qvist

If others have issue, please, discuss!

[Robz888]

That is fine with me.

[cayvie]

Me too.

[Qvist]

D'oh. I misread the card and thought that the person that is assigned to open up can choose to whom he will reveal himself. But it is the leader who can choose both.
So, now I wait for a PM right?

[Galzria]

D'oh. I misread the card and thought that the person that is assigned to open up can choose to whom he will reveal himself. But it is the leader who can choose both.
So, now I wait for a PM right?

He hasn't assigned yet. When he does, it will be bolded and double hashtagged (##).

[Robz888]

D'oh. I misread the card and thought that the person that is assigned to open up can choose to whom he will reveal himself. But it is the leader who can choose both.
So, now I wait for a PM right?

It is the case that the person assigned the card chooses, I think. But I agree to abide by the random choice, which was you.

[Qvist]

Ok, I understand. Of course I'm fine with that decision. More information is always good.

[Axxle]

Fine.

[Axxle]

Fine.

I don't agree but I'll accept it.

[Galzria]

Fine.

I don't agree but I'll accept it.

Axxle, I understand your problem with randomness. You're completely right that we lose a chance to get a read on ftl. I just think the alternative, letting ftl choose, is too dangerous without knowing anything about his role. He could, very easily have a strong ability to dictate the flow of this game.

I think regardless of the outcome we can start to make theories on both the receiver of OU, and the person he reveals to. Yes, we lose the chance at a read on ftl, but I don't think the risk of him choosing is worth it. Later on, once more information is out there? Sure, maybe. But not now, going in blind.

[Tables]

Just to clarify:

Open Up is given to any other person X by the Leader. X chooses another person Z. X shows his character card (Resistance/Spy) to Z.
Establish Confidence is given to any other person Y. Y checks the character card of the current leader (i.e. the person who gave him the card).

The problem comes mainly because the wording is a bit wonky and looks identical on both cards.

[ftl]

As I'm resistance, I'd be picking entirely blindly anyway, so public random is as good as anything to me. Well, if I was picking non-randomly, I'd promise to put on my mission whoever showed me their rolecard (and was resistance).

Hey, if you want, I can pick Opinion Maker without public random! I think I might as well do that.

[Galzria]

As I'm resistance, I'd be picking entirely blindly anyway, so public random is as good as anything to me. Well, if I was picking non-randomly, I'd promise to put on my mission whoever showed me their rolecard (and was resistance).

Hey, if you want, I can pick Opinion Maker without public random! I think I might as well do that.

That works for me.

[ftl]

Let's do this thing.

##I give the plot card Opinion Maker to Galzria . You're last in line to pick a team, might as well get your vote first so we get more info on you faster.

##I give the plot card Open Up to Robz888 , requesting on behalf of the Resistance that you show your role to Qvist, which was determined by a fair RNG. (This is not rule-required, but you'd get a huge FoS if you showed your card to somebody else.)

[Robz888]

##I show my alignment card to Qvist . Tables, how should we facilitate this? Do you want to message it to him?

[Galzria]

Let's do this thing.

##I give the plot card Opinion Maker to Galzria . You're last in line to pick a team, might as well get your vote first so we get more info on you faster.

##I give the plot card Open Up to Robz888 , requesting on behalf of the Resistance that you show your role to Qvist, which was determined by a fair RNG. (This is not rule-required, but you'd get a huge FoS if you showed your card to somebody else.)

Now you've given a good Resistance reason to give it to me, I need to come up with a good Spy reason and weigh the two...

[Galzria]

##I show my alignment card to Qvist . Tables, how should we facilitate this? Do you want to message it to him?

I believe Tsbles will.

[Galzria]

Tables*

[Tables]

I am indeed sending Robz loyalty to Qvist now.

[Galzria]

I am indeed sending Robz loyalty to Qvist now.

Can you send a Carbon Copy my way? I'd like to know too!

[Robz888]

He should be able to confirm that I am Resistance very shortly.

[Tables]

And just for 'in general' notice, if something would require you to give/take information from someone privately or otherwise communicate not in the thread, I will do it via PM. This applies to: Keeping a Close Eye on You, Overheard Conversations, Establish Confidence, Open Up and anything else I might have missed.

I AM however okay with players using one of these cards sending the information via PM, as long as you add nothing else into the PM. Just a single word 'Resistance/Spy' or 'Sabotage/Co-operate'. I can't enforce outside contact anyway (e.g. between spies) as I can't hack your accounts (shame...), so I might as well trust you to be honest with this as well.

[Galzria]

@Robz

If he does:

Robz-Qvist:

Spy:Spy
Resistance:Resistance
Resistance:Spy (outside chance?)

Are possible.

---

If you report in as Spy:

Robz:Qvist

Spy:Spy (outsides chance)
Spy:Resistance
Resistance:Spy

Are possible.

---

This is correct, right?

[Robz888]

Yep, looks right.

[ftl]

Looking forward to the investigation result from Qvist. When he posts it, I'll propose a team based on that.

(Not saying that I'll necessarily believe what he says Robz's role is, since he can lie, but it'll still give me some info to pick a team, as enumerated by Galz.)

[Qvist]

He should be able to confirm that I am Resistance very shortly.

Indeed he is. I take everything back: Robz is Resistance. (I think double hash tag isn't needed here, right?)

So I think that ftl should send himself and Robz to a mission. If the mission fails we know that ftl is a spy and know that the Opinion Maker most likely wasn't random. If the mission suceeds, well, that's our first point.

[ftl]

No double hashtags, it's just your word for it. As enumerated before, this result means that either Robz really is resistance, or you are both spies. 

Considering what to make my team. I see two reasonable options, and not sure which to pick... eh, I think I'll pick the more straightforward one and if y'all don't like it, vote it down.

#Propose team for Mission 1: myself (ftl) and Robz888 .

[Galzria]

I vote first:
Vote: No

I certainly can't trust Qvist's word over my own role PM. This mission would have a better chance to succeed if I were on it instead of Robz.

I don't blame you for making that pairing. It's the correct one for you to make. But I'm still voting no.

[Galzria]

At this point, everybody sends their vote to the mod, who will then reveal. Only my vote is public. (You can discuss before voting, and announce if you want, nothing against that).

[Galzria]

Just to be proper above:
## Mission 1, Assignment 1: Vote: No

[Grujah]

I believe Robz. It is very unlikely that
A) he is spy
and
B) Q is spy
and
C) Q decided to lie
So I belive that he is Resistance.

Thing is, I cannot know anything about what ftl. I don't know anything else about him except that he choose this card on random. Opinion maker does seem to be fairly distributed. On that fact (that ftl could be on an side), and that we have few more shots at proposing teams, I am inclinded to vote no, just to see what other people would do.

[Grujah]

I am a little drunk, so I've made a few errors, specificaly:
what in first sentence is unneeded
and
it should say
"ftl could be at any side"

[cayvie]

If this proposition fails, we're allowed to talk for a bit before I propose my suggested team, right?

[cayvie]

I was thinking that if we propose a team of Qvist and Robz, then if it fails, we will know 100% that Qvist is a Spy. (If Robz was a Spy and Qvist wasn't, why would Qvist report Robz as Resistance?)

If it succeeds, we won't know anything 100%, but that's the same as any other pairing.

[Galzria]

I was thinking that if we propose a team of Qvist and Robz, then if it fails, we will know 100% that Qvist is a Spy. (If Robz was a Spy and Qvist wasn't, why would Qvist report Robz as Resistance?)

If it succeeds, we won't know anything 100%, but that's the same as any other pairing.

Protip: Mission 1 very rarely fails. It's not worth the Spy's sacrificing their cred this early when mission sizes just get larger as we go.

At least, that is what I was told in Resistance-I. I assume it to be true because, well, it makes sense.

[cayvie]

I was thinking that if we propose a team of Qvist and Robz, then if it fails, we will know 100% that Qvist is a Spy. (If Robz was a Spy and Qvist wasn't, why would Qvist report Robz as Resistance?)

If it succeeds, we won't know anything 100%, but that's the same as any other pairing.

Protip: Mission 1 very rarely fails. It's not worth the Spy's sacrificing their cred this early when mission sizes just get larger as we go.

At least, that is what I was told in Resistance-I. I assume it to be true because, well, it makes sense.

If that's the case, does it even matter who we send on it?

[cayvie]

Further argument:

We learn nothing from a successful mission. If what you're saying is that Mission 1's are almost always successful (i.e., the chance of success/failure isn't a strong factor for choosing our Mission 1 team), then we should pick our team based on which pairing will give us the most information in the unlikely event of a failure.

And that team is definitely Robz/Qvist.

[cayvie]

I vote first:
Vote: No

I certainly can't trust Qvist's word over my own role PM. This mission would have a better chance to succeed if I were on it instead of Robz.

I don't blame you for making that pairing. It's the correct one for you to make. But I'm still voting no.

Protip: Mission 1 very rarely fails. It's not worth the Spy's sacrificing their cred this early when mission sizes just get larger as we go.

At least, that is what I was told in Resistance-I. I assume it to be true because, well, it makes sense.

You know what, Galzria? I kind of think you've contradicted yourself here.

Should we consider the likelihood of mission success or not, when determining our Mission 1 team?

[Galzria]

Not a contradiction, no. Just two separate logical arguments. The odds of it failing ARE small. Spy's should PROBABLY pass it. Nonetheless, the odds of success are better if I'm onboard, and I would rather not risk the possibility (or at least minimize it) that they DO fail it. Success is, I believe, better than failure + learning a spy is 1 of 2 people.

[Robz888]

Obviously, I have voted in favor of the mission.

I think putting me on the missions is a good idea, FYI, since in order for me to be Spy, Qvist would have to also be a Spy.

[Qvist]

Since it was my idea for the mission, I vote yes too.
Putting me and Robz on a mission is definitely another good idea, I think. If the majority doesn't agree with ftl and Robz, the next leader should definitely propose me and Robz for the mission, I can assure that it will suceed.

[Robz888]

(With the conclusion of MV, I have a perfect record in all Mafia games, but because of the Resistance 1 loss, Galzria has a better overall Forum Games record and this cannot stand. So I am going to have to assume Galzria is a Spy, because it's the only way for me to beat him this game...)

[Axxle]

(With the conclusion of MV, I have a perfect record in all Mafia games, but because of the Resistance 1 loss, Galzria has a better overall Forum Games record and this cannot stand. So I am going to have to assume Galzria is a Spy, because it's the only way for me to beat him this game...)

Now this is a very interesting thing to say.

Calling it:

Spies:
Robz
Qvist
Galzria

[Axxle]

(With the conclusion of MV, I have a perfect record in all Mafia games, but because of the Resistance 1 loss, Galzria has a better overall Forum Games record and this cannot stand. So I am going to have to assume Galzria is a Spy, because it's the only way for me to beat him this game...)

Now this is a very interesting thing to say.

Calling it:

Spies:
Robz
Qvist
Galzria

/partial joke

On a side note I want to fail this just to get more information about how other players pick their teams.

[cayvie]

I voted against. As stated earlier, I wish to propose Robz and Qvist as a team.

[Galzria]

(With the conclusion of MV, I have a perfect record in all Mafia games, but because of the Resistance 1 loss, Galzria has a better overall Forum Games record and this cannot stand. So I am going to have to assume Galzria is a Spy, because it's the only way for me to beat him this game...)

HA! Best reason ever. +1 somewhere I can find a non-forums games post.

If you really are Resistance, you'll have to wait until another game to break me of that.

[cayvie]

I was thinking that if we propose a team of Qvist and Robz, then if it fails, we will know 100% that Qvist is a Spy. (If Robz was a Spy and Qvist wasn't, why would Qvist report Robz as Resistance?)

If it succeeds, we won't know anything 100%, but that's the same as any other pairing.

Protip: Mission 1 very rarely fails. It's not worth the Spy's sacrificing their cred this early when mission sizes just get larger as we go.

At least, that is what I was told in Resistance-I. I assume it to be true because, well, it makes sense.

Okay.

I guess I just have to ask then: why did you say this?

[Galzria]

I was thinking that if we propose a team of Qvist and Robz, then if it fails, we will know 100% that Qvist is a Spy. (If Robz was a Spy and Qvist wasn't, why would Qvist report Robz as Resistance?)

If it succeeds, we won't know anything 100%, but that's the same as any other pairing.

Protip: Mission 1 very rarely fails. It's not worth the Spy's sacrificing their cred this early when mission sizes just get larger as we go.

At least, that is what I was told in Resistance-I. I assume it to be true because, well, it makes sense.

Okay.

I guess I just have to ask then: why did you say this?

... Because you were talking about missions failing? It's a direct response to the quote provided.

After talking about failing, you mentioned if it passed we learn as much as any other pair. Perhaps that's true. But on the off-chance the Spy's ARE willing to fail mission one, I would rather reduce the opportunity they get to do so to the the minimal amount. Thus why I won't approve an assignment I'm not on (outside #5, which I must pass).

[cayvie]

Galzria, that explanation has little to nothing to do with what you actually said.

You said "Protip: Mission 1 very rarely fails. It's not worth the Spy's sacrificing their cred this early when mission sizes just get larger as we go."

How does that at all lead you to "But on the off-chance the Spy's ARE willing to fail mission one, I would rather reduce the opportunity they get to do so to the the minimal amount. Thus why I won't approve an assignment I'm not on (outside #5, which I must pass)."?

[Galzria]

Not a contradiction, no. Just two separate logical arguments. The odds of it failing ARE small. Spy's should PROBABLY pass it. Nonetheless, the odds of success are better if I'm onboard, and I would rather not risk the possibility (or at least minimize it) that they DO fail it. Success is, I believe, better than failure + learning a spy is 1 of 2 people.

Bolded for emphasis. I never said one led to the other, I said both arguments made sense to me, but were SEPERATE arguments. They certainly aren't exclusive of each other.

Why are you ok passing an assignment you're not on? Don't care if it fails?

[ftl]

Yeah, I considered a team of Robz and Qvist. That was the other reasonable option I was referencing in my post

Considering what to make my team. I see two reasonable options, and not sure which to pick...

.

I might even vote for it.

I'm not so convinced that the spies will pass mission 1 for free. There's three of them, exposing one spy to stab one mission is a worthwhile trade, they need three failures to win. I suppose that's a tradeoff for them to decide.

[Galzria]

Not a contradiction, no. Just two separate logical arguments. The odds of it failing ARE small. Spy's should PROBABLY pass it. Nonetheless, the odds of success are better if I'm onboard, and I would rather not risk the possibility (or at least minimize it) that they DO fail it. Success is, I believe, better than failure + learning a spy is 1 of 2 people.

Bolded for emphasis. I never said one led to the other, I said both arguments made sense to me, but were SEPERATE arguments. They certainly aren't exclusive of each other.

Why are you ok passing an assignment you're not on? Don't care if it fails?

I should clarify that last sentence: I'm not accusing you, but there IS a chance the spies fail mission 1 if they can. Is a Resistance Cayvie willing to risk that by putting two unknowns on an assignment?

If it passes, hey, great! But we still know nothing new. I'm fine with this outcome.

If it fails, we know Qvist is a spy. That is good, but still leaves 2 unknown spies, and Resistance is down 0-1. - I'm NOT ok with that outcome.

Thus to me, the best way of reducing a CHANCE the spies would fail it, is to be on the assignment.

I would hope Resistance Cayvie would agree? Spy Csyvie, now I have to consider.

[cayvie]

Not a contradiction, no. Just two separate logical arguments. The odds of it failing ARE small. Spy's should PROBABLY pass it. Nonetheless, the odds of success are better if I'm onboard, and I would rather not risk the possibility (or at least minimize it) that they DO fail it. Success is, I believe, better than failure + learning a spy is 1 of 2 people.

Bolded for emphasis. I never said one led to the other, I said both arguments made sense to me, but were SEPERATE arguments. They certainly aren't exclusive of each other.

Why are you ok passing an assignment you're not on? Don't care if it fails?

No, no, no, no, no.

These two statements I quoted are not separate arguments.

The first is from an argument you made. The second is from a post you made explaining that same argument when I asked you to elucidate.

I was thinking that if we propose a team of Qvist and Robz, then if it fails, we will know 100% that Qvist is a Spy. (If Robz was a Spy and Qvist wasn't, why would Qvist report Robz as Resistance?)

If it succeeds, we won't know anything 100%, but that's the same as any other pairing.

Protip: Mission 1 very rarely fails. It's not worth the Spy's sacrificing their cred this early when mission sizes just get larger as we go.

At least, that is what I was told in Resistance-I. I assume it to be true because, well, it makes sense.

Okay.

I guess I just have to ask then: why did you say this?

... Because you were talking about missions failing? It's a direct response to the quote provided.

After talking about failing, you mentioned if it passed we learn as much as any other pair. Perhaps that's true. But on the off-chance the Spy's ARE willing to fail mission one, I would rather reduce the opportunity they get to do so to the the minimal amount. Thus why I won't approve an assignment I'm not on (outside #5, which I must pass).

[cayvie]

Galzria, that explanation has little to nothing to do with what you actually said.

You said "Protip: Mission 1 very rarely fails. It's not worth the Spy's sacrificing their cred this early when mission sizes just get larger as we go."

How does that at all lead you to "But on the off-chance the Spy's ARE willing to fail mission one, I would rather reduce the opportunity they get to do so to the the minimal amount. Thus why I won't approve an assignment I'm not on (outside #5, which I must pass)."?

These are the two statements referred to; they should be requoted in the previous post.

[cayvie]

Not a contradiction, no. Just two separate logical arguments. The odds of it failing ARE small. Spy's should PROBABLY pass it. Nonetheless, the odds of success are better if I'm onboard, and I would rather not risk the possibility (or at least minimize it) that they DO fail it. Success is, I believe, better than failure + learning a spy is 1 of 2 people.

Bolded for emphasis. I never said one led to the other, I said both arguments made sense to me, but were SEPERATE arguments. They certainly aren't exclusive of each other.

Why are you ok passing an assignment you're not on? Don't care if it fails?

I should clarify that last sentence: I'm not accusing you, but there IS a chance the spies fail mission 1 if they can. Is a Resistance Cayvie willing to risk that by putting two unknowns on an assignment?

If it passes, hey, great! But we still know nothing new. I'm fine with this outcome.

If it fails, we know Qvist is a spy. That is good, but still leaves 2 unknown spies, and Resistance is down 0-1. - I'm NOT ok with that outcome.

Thus to me, the best way of reducing a CHANCE the spies would fail it, is to be on the assignment.

I would hope Resistance Cayvie would agree? Spy Csyvie, now I have to consider.

Also, separate argument: if everyone follows that logic, only voting for missions they themselves are on, then no mission ever gets passed (until the 5th one submitted, I suppose).

[Galzria]

Cayvie, here is your claim I contradicted myself. You offer these as if I was led to one by the other:

I vote first:
Vote: No

I certainly can't trust Qvist's word over my own role PM. This mission would have a better chance to succeed if I were on it instead of Robz.

I don't blame you for making that pairing. It's the correct one for you to make. But I'm still voting no.

Protip: Mission 1 very rarely fails. It's not worth the Spy's sacrificing their cred this early when mission sizes just get larger as we go.

At least, that is what I was told in Resistance-I. I assume it to be true because, well, it makes sense.

You know what, Galzria? I kind of think you've contradicted yourself here.

Should we consider the likelihood of mission success or not, when determining our Mission 1 team?

Here is the ENTIRE second quote, including what you snipped:

 

I was thinking that if we propose a team of Qvist and Robz, then if it fails, we will know 100% that Qvist is a Spy. (If Robz was a Spy and Qvist wasn't, why would Qvist report Robz as Resistance?)

If it succeeds, we won't know anything 100%, but that's the same as any other pairing.

Protip: Mission 1 very rarely fails. It's not worth the Spy's sacrificing their cred this early when mission sizes just get larger as we go.

At least, that is what I was told in Resistance-I. I assume it to be true because, well, it makes sense.

My two posts were in no way related to each other. My first, was why I voted No, and will continue to do so until I'm on a wagon or we have more concrete information on somebody.

My second post was in DIRECT RESPONSE to something you posted, and was in no way a tie in to my first.

My first says:

A) Any mission with me has a better chance of success. Success is good. I will vote for missions with me.

My second says:

B) Spies will probably pass Mission one.

Theses statements do NOT contradict. Nor does one lead to the other. They were septate statements, made at separate times.

You're making terrible arguments, and you're clipping relevant portions of quotes to try and make them. I'd love to getty others to chime in here because the facts and history is less than two days old. What you're suggesting I said/did/implied is simply false.

Big FoS in your direction for intentionally misquoting to try and make invalid points.

[ftl]

Hey, I like Cayvie's proposed team. It was my second choice after me/robz, and I suspect it's the best choice we have that actually has a shot of being passed.

[Galzria]

Hey, I like Cayvie's proposed team. It was my second choice after me/robz, and I suspect it's the best choice we have that actually has a shot of being passed.

I understand. It's my "second choice" after a team that doesn't have me as well.

I don't see how it could be Resistance Cayvie's first choice. I could see why it would be Spy Cayvie's though, if Qvist were her teammate (note: I'm not claiming this, just saying it would fit).

In either case, my issue is not in the team she suggested. Where I take issue was her sniping quotes to make a completely bogus accusation that I contradicted myself or arrived at false conclusions. Her argument is completely fabricated.

[ftl]

Well, I considered making it my first choice, but decided against it.

We'll see, I guess. Lots of info going around early. This should be good.

[Tables]

Mission 1.1 proposed by: ftl:
Team Proposed: ftl, Robz888
Voting YES: ftl, Robz888, Qvist
Voting NO: Cayvie, Axxle, Grujah, Galzria
Result: Yes - 3, No - 4
Proposal Fails

Leadership passes to Cayvie

[ftl]

Hm. Interesting. Why did you vote for my proposal, Qvist?

[Robz888]

Hm. Interesting. Why did you vote for my proposal, Qvist?

Why wouldn't he? He knows I'm Resistance, so he would get to learn whether you are Resistance, ftl.

[Qvist]

Hm. Interesting. Why did you vote for my proposal, Qvist?

Because it was my idea and I already explained the reasons.

So I think that ftl should send himself and Robz to a mission. If the mission fails we know that ftl is a spy and know that the Opinion Maker most likely wasn't random. If the mission suceeds, well, that's our first point.

cayvie will now propose me and Robz. That's fine. A guaranteed 1-0 for the Resistence

[ftl]

lol yes, you did propose it, I'm stupid for forgetting that. Sry.

[cayvie]

##Propose Team: Qvist and Robz888

By the way, there's a big logic puzzle here.

Right now, we know that

1) IF Robz = Spy, THEN Qvist = Spy.

Which implies its contrapositive,

1a) IF Qvist = Resistance, THEN Robz = Resistance.

It seems unlikely that we'll get enough information from cards to completely solve the game, but it still seems useful to keep track of this stuff.

[Grujah]

Ok, I guess with this team we either find spies or pass it outright (which establishes the duo as more likely to be Resistance)? Seems like a fine one.

[Tables]

Quick note on Opinion Maker: If you think your vote will not vary either way, feel free to send me your vote before the Opinion Maker vote(s). If they will, you can still send a conditional vote.

[Galzria]

Robz, Qvist, and Axxle:

Will any of you be assigning me to your proposals if it gets to you? If not, this is my second choice and will vote yes here.

[Robz888]

I will again propose myself and Qvist if this mission fails.

[Axxle]

Robz, Qvist, and Axxle:

Will any of you be assigning me to your proposals if it gets to you? If not, this is my second choice and will vote yes here.

No. This is a top choice of team for the mission, and I'd rather have Robz distributing the cards than anyone else (besides myself of course) at the moment.

[ftl]

##Propose Team: Qvist and Robz888

By the way, there's a big logic puzzle here.

Right now, we know that

1) IF Robz = Spy, THEN Qvist = Spy.

Which implies its contrapositive,

1a) IF Qvist = Resistance, THEN Robz = Resistance.

It seems unlikely that we'll get enough information from cards to completely solve the game, but it still seems useful to keep track of this stuff.

Yep. The possibilities are: Qvist and Robz both spies; Qvist and Robz both resistance; Robz resistance and Qvist spy is still possible, there's some WIFOM as to whether Qvist would have gone for that or whether he would have just called Robz a spy.

I'll probably vote for this unless someone plans to resurrect the team of me and Robz, which seems unlikely, I certainly wouldn't do that as resistance if I wasn't me. Though maybe I should vote against it and see what happens, presumably Robz and Qvist would propose the same team when they get their choices and I'll have another chance to approve it.  But that wouldn't accomplish anything besides wasting time...

...well, Robz just said he'd be proposing it again, and he's next.

I'd rather have Robz distributing the cards than anyone else (besides myself of course) at the moment.

...oh, wow, good point. I'll probably be voting for this, then.

[Galzria]

Alright, I don't have Qvists response, but Axxle makes a fair point, and honestly, if Qvist proposed anything else (since he's indicated he liked this team in the past):
## Vote: Yes

[cayvie]

I sent in a yes vote as well.

[cayvie]

Alright, I don't have Qvists response, but Axxle makes a fair point, and honestly, if Qvist proposed anything else (since he's indicated he liked this team in the past):
## Vote: Yes

Is that an incomplete sentence?

[Galzria]

Alright, I don't have Qvists response, but Axxle makes a fair point, and honestly, if Qvist proposed anything else (since he's indicated he liked this team in the past):
## Vote: Yes

Is that an incomplete sentence?

Err, yeah, but it was supposed to end "I'd be shocked", but I lost my train of thought after the parenthetical.

[cayvie]

Okay, limited weekend availability for me until Sunday.

[Grujah]

I will again propose myself and Qvist if this mission fails.

I though you cannot propose same team twice? Or did I just get that wrong from somewhere?

[Tables]

The same team can be proposed any number of times. The only restriction on proposals is that the Resistance auto-loses if the 5th proposal is voted down (I will thus assume everyone votes yes unless there are reasons (e.g. plot cards) to do otherwise)

[Qvist]

After Robz, I'm the leader. I will propose Robz and me too. I think we can save the time and vote yes.

[Tables]

Mission 1.2 proposed by: Cayvie:
Team Proposed: Robz888, Qvist
Voting YES: ftl, Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist, Axxle, Grujah, Galzria
Voting NO: None
Result: Yes - 7, No - 0
Proposal passes

Spies: Please send your mission decision for this mission. Resistance: You will automatically co-operate with this

[Tables]

It's not 24 hours, but it's close enough.

Mission 1 Results
Co-operating: 2
Sabotage: 0
Mission succeeds. Score is now Resistance - 1, Spies - 0

Leadership passes to Robz888 who draws Take Responsibility and Keeping a Close Eye on You

[Tables]

Now also seems a good time to highlight that mission 4 requires TWO fail cards. eHalcyon suggested I highlight this in case anybody missed it.

[cayvie]

I have a rules question.

Can someone Take Responsibility for Robz's Open Up card?

[Robz888]

Any suggestions for who I should give these things to? I'm not actually sure I understand Keeping A Close Eye on You.

Unfortunately for me, I think the person most cleared so far is myself, so I am open to suggestions for a distribution of these cards that most strongly benefits the Resistance.

[cayvie]

Well, if I can use Take Responsibility on Open Up, I promise to do that, and then to Open Up to you, Robz.

[cayvie]

I think that you hand KACEOY to someone, then they hold onto it until a mission fails. Then they can look at how one person voted. Maybe?

[Robz888]

Well, if I can use Take Responsibility on Open Up, I promise to do that, and then to Open Up to you, Robz.

If we can do this, then yes this sounds good.

[ftl]

For reference, from the images in Table's earlier link:

"Keeping a Close Eye on You": "You may look at one played Mission card".
I believe that the way this works, after a mission, you can use it to look at one person's vote.

"Take Responsibility": "You must take a plot card from another player" .
I'm not sure whether this applies to plot cards already used up. If it applies to one-time use ones that have already been used up, then I think it's obvious that using it a a second copy of "open up" is the best course around. Of course, I'd rather have it than cayvie, or, even better, give it to somebody closer along the line of succession; Cayvie's not going to be proposing any missions for some time, better use that on someone who's coming up in a bit. So maybe Grujah or Axxle.

If you can't use it to redo 'open up', then all it does is pass around the Opinion Maker or maybe the "Keeping a Close Eye on You" if it applies to that.

[Tables]

I have a rules question.

Can someone Take Responsibility for Robz's Open Up card?

No. Once a plot card is used, it is discarded.

KaCEoY: This must be used during the mission submission phase, before the target submits their mission card.
Take Responsibility: This must be used immediately (after all plot cards are distributed). It must therefore immediately take Opinion Maker or KaCEoY.

[Robz888]

I have a rules question.

Can someone Take Responsibility for Robz's Open Up card?

No. Once a plot card is used, it is discarded.

KaCEoY: This must be used during the mission submission phase, before the target submits their mission card.
Take Responsibility: This must be used immediately (after all plot cards are distributed). It must therefore immediately take Opinion Maker or KaCEoY.

So I give TR to someone and that person immediately takes Opinion Maker or KACEoY?

[Tables]

Yes (after also giving out KaCEoY)

(It's even more fun when it's the first plot card drawn in a 5-6 player game)

[ftl]

Well, then no sense deliberating, IMO. Robz give them out to people you trust, or like, or want to find out more about.

[Robz888]

I will give Keeping A Close Eye on You to Qvist.
I will give Take Responsibility to Ftl.

### For Mission 2, I propose Robz888, Qvist, and Galzria.

[Galzria]

Waiting for TR resolution.

[ftl]

Hm. That means I use "Take responsibility" to take a card, right?

Well, I don't particularly want to be Opinion Maker, and I'm the one that gave it to Galz in the first place. Soo... I can take KaCEoY from Qvist? And then next time we go on a mission, I get to look at one of the cards someone submitted, thus giving me a chance to catch a saboteur in the act?

[ftl]

I think that's right, just double-checked, I think that's right.

##I use Take Responsibility to take Keeping a Close Eye on You from Qvist

[Tables]

And then next time we go on a mission, I get to look at one of the cards someone submitted, thus giving me a chance to catch a saboteur in the act?

You can use it on any mission, not just the next one, but only on one mission.

[Galzria]

While I don't have an issue with your vote ftl, I do wonder at "I really don't want to be Opinion Maker"... Why? As Resistance, it's pretty straight forward. Unless you've got something to hide?

Anyway, pretty easy here:

Vote: Yes

While there still exists two scenario's Qvist is a Spy, and one in which Robz is, I can't see this getting any better for me.

[Galzria]

*don't have issue with you wanting KaCEoY* (Not *vote*)

[cayvie]

Okay. Some thoughts about this proposal.

Mainly, I'm pretty certain Robz is Resistance now. Remember that, if he's a Spy then Qvist is also a Spy. I don't think it's to the Spies' advantage to have more than one Spy on a mission (except mission 4): it runs the risk of having multiple Sabotage cards thrown, which will give the Resistance a ton of info. So, him proposing a team with himself and Qvist makes me think he's not a Spy.

Robz could be playing a very long con. I doubt it.

So, what to do about this team.

If it succeeds, we learn nothing concrete, and are one step closer to victory. Awesome.

I have a feeling that, if one of these three people is a Spy, they pretty much have to Sabotage. So it's a good thing we've got this KACEOY card.

So, if this mission fails with one Sabotage, ftl should probably check out someone's card. I suspect it should be Galzria, but maybe Qvist would be better.

If ftl investigates Galzria:
ftl reports that Galzria Sabotaged the mission: this means that AT LEAST one of ftl and Galzria is a Spy.
ftl reports that Galzria did not Sabotage the mission: this means that EITHER Qvist is a Spy and ftl is Resistance, or BOTH ftl and Galzria are Spies.

If ftl investigates Qvist:
ftl reports that Qvist Sabotaged the mission: this means that AT LEAST one of ftl and Qvist is a Spy
ftl reports that Qvist did not Sabotage the mission: we don't know anything for certain here. Robz and Qvist could be Spies and Galzria could be Resistance. Or Galzria could be a Spy and Robz and Qvist could be Resistance. Or Qvist and Galz could both be spies. Or ftl could just be lying! Yeah, investigating Qvist is the wrong move here.

Of course, the thing about this analysis is that Galzria's name could be replaced with any other.

Robz, why did you choose this particular team?

[Robz888]

Cayvie, I chose the team because Qvist and I already have a successful mission under our belts, and I think "if it ain't broke don't fix it" kind of works in this game. I thought about adding you, Cayvie, but I think Galzria is a better choice, because he has to vote publicly.

[Qvist]

Hm, strange move from ftl.
If I would be him, I would have taken Oponion Maker as Resistance.
I have one succesful mission, so I'm more trustworthy than him and only Spies have fear of the Opinion Maker.
I'm not a fan of this move.

[ftl]

Huh? Why on earth would I take opinion maker? It gives me no benefit. I know I'm resistance, so why would I take away Opinion Maker from a potential spy?

Likewise with the taking KaCEoY. You're not more trustworthy than me to *me*. All I know about you is that you (and someone you called Resistance) passed Mission 1; I know my own role PM. If this mission is accepted, I'll be able to use my KaCEoY to check on either you or Galz. Not sure who to investigate, probably you since you're since you're sort of a linchpin since you gave us the info on Robz.

[Qvist]

I don't know what a linchpin is, but anyway. I can understand that you're not trusting me. But I think I have still a bonus compared to most others. So, I still can't understand why you took the card from me. Nevermind... So, with me and Robz as sure Resistance members, I have a hard time finding out who the remaining two members are. I'm a little bit worried we're hearing not much from Axxle and Grujah. But at that point cayvie has the biggest confidence so far for proposing me and Robz and a succesful mission. So, I'm not sure if I trust Galzria and don't know what I should vote. I'm the next leader and would likely propose me, cayvie and Robz for the mission. Any comments?

[Grujah]

I agree that taking Opinion Maker is better option.
Sure, ftl, you trust yourself more than others, but I do not have any reason to trust you over Qvist. We know nothing about you except that you have dealt Open Up randomly and that you proposed a team that included yourself.
On Qvist we at least know that he was on a passed mission, which gives him credit.
OTOH, on the other way Qvist would have a bit too much info only for himself (even though he was an OK choice) but I think that is a lesser concern if he is (generally) a more trustworthy.

Galz would (at least on this proposition) vote Yes by default as it is team that he Yes'd last time + himself, anyway.

As for the vote, I am not sure. Excluding me, and if I assume Robz is probably Resistance, there is only 2 resistance out of the rest of 5, so both would need to be on a team. Galz and cayvie are the same to me, cayvie made an obvious suggestion, doesn't really net him points. Also both voted the same and both like me.. But 2 that already passed + 1 other.. I don't know how much better I could get aside from team including me?

We have another day do decide, right?

[ftl]

Yeah, we do. I voted already, probably a little too hastily because I was getting criticized for my stealing KaCEoY (which surprised me, I would have expected any Resistance or Spy to do the same) and because I was excited to use it. Should've waited. Maybe I should wait to use it and not just use it to investigate Qvist if this mission passes? Or maybe I should use it. Not sure.

[Galzria]

Yeah, we do. I voted already, probably a little too hastily because I was getting criticized for my stealing KaCEoY (which surprised me, I would have expected any Resistance or Spy to do the same) and because I was excited to use it. Should've waited. Maybe I should wait to use it and not just use it to investigate Qvist if this mission passes? Or maybe I should use it. Not sure.

You can change your vote up until Tables posts the results.

[Axxle]

Sorry I've been at comic-con all weekend.

@ftl: You are correct, taking KaCEoY is a powerful move for both resistance and spies in a vacuum.  However, Qvist is a player who is second most likely to be resistance after Robz.  Taking it from someone like that is very suspicious.  I now consider you my most likely candidate for spy.

I'm not sure I trust Galzria.  He sounds very pushy to be on the team, but that might just be his playstyle.  I would be much more comfortable with me on the team.  I think I'll fail this.

[Grujah]

Sorry I've been at comic-con all weekend.

You just made me super-jealous.

[Axxle]

Sorry I've been at comic-con all weekend.

You just made me super-jealous.

Bwahaha, perks of being in the industry!

Sorry I've been at comic-con all weekend.

@ftl: You are correct, taking KaCEoY is a powerful move for both resistance and spies in a vacuum.  However, Qvist is a player who is second most likely to be resistance after Robz.  Taking it from someone like that is very suspicious.  I now consider you my most likely candidate for spy.

I'm not sure I trust Galzria.  He sounds very pushy to be on the team, but that might just be his playstyle.  I would be much more comfortable with me on the team.  I think I'll fail this.

Expanding on this: If we do this right, we can win very easily in the next few turns.  Qvist/Robz/me, Qvist/Robz/me for back to back wins.

[Grujah]

Sorry I've been at comic-con all weekend.

You just made me super-jealous.

Bwahaha, perks of being in the industry!

Wait, WHAT?

[Axxle]

Sorry I've been at comic-con all weekend.

You just made me super-jealous.

Bwahaha, perks of being in the industry!

Wait, WHAT?

I'm a video game programmer, I'll probably write an introduction about myself in the Intro forum when I get around to it.

[Grujah]

Sorry I've been at comic-con all weekend.

You just made me super-jealous.

Bwahaha, perks of being in the industry!

Wait, WHAT?

I'm a video game programmer, I'll probably write an introduction about myself in the Intro forum when I get around to it.

Oh, THAT industry. You are much less awesome now.

[Axxle]

Sorry I've been at comic-con all weekend.

You just made me super-jealous.

Bwahaha, perks of being in the industry!

Wait, WHAT?

I'm a video game programmer, I'll probably write an introduction about myself in the Intro forum when I get around to it.

Oh, THAT industry. You are much less awesome now.

[ftl]

Sorry I've been at comic-con all weekend.

@ftl: You are correct, taking KaCEoY is a powerful move for both resistance and spies in a vacuum.  However, Qvist is a player who is second most likely to be resistance after Robz. 

Again, how could likelihood compare to reading my own role PM and knowing I'm resistance? And I certainly don't want a case where Qvist turns out to be a spy and ends up giving us all the wrong info, not a fan of that concentration of power.

Like, I can see trusting Qvist a little, because he passed Mission 1 and because Robz hasn't betrayed us yet, but trusting him enough to let him have a power card you could have instead? Not seeing it.

Does the town somehow get more info from Qvist using that card, than for somebody else using that card on a mission that Qvist is in?

Taking it from someone like that is very suspicious.  I now consider you my most likely candidate for spy.

Well, that's your own judgment, I suppose. I disagree; I would have expected anybody to take it. (And I see absolutely no reason for anybody to have wanted to take Opinion Maker!)

I'm not sure I trust Galzria.  He sounds very pushy to be on the team, but that might just be his playstyle.  I would be much more comfortable with me on the team.  I think I'll fail this.

True, Qvist and Robz should definitely go on this team since they passed D1, but I have no idea who the third person should be. I guess we have no real info on too many other people, I guess the stuff from the voting and the chatter. I'd prefer me, of course, but everyone would prefer themselves... ...and I have KaCEoY, so I guess I'm better on the sidelines looking in than as part of the mission.

Maybe Cayvie? She proposed the Robz/Qvist team, so that's a resistance point to her, proposing a successful team.

[cayvie]

Expanding on this: If we do this right, we can win very easily in the next few turns.  Qvist/Robz/me, Qvist/Robz/me for back to back wins.

Um, what? Qvist is in no way cleared. Like, at all.

[Axxle]

Expanding on this: If we do this right, we can win very easily in the next few turns.  Qvist/Robz/me, Qvist/Robz/me for back to back wins.

Um, what? Qvist is in no way cleared. Like, at all.

I consider him more cleared than everyone else.

[Axxle]

Expanding on this: If we do this right, we can win very easily in the next few turns.  Qvist/Robz/me, Qvist/Robz/me for back to back wins.

Um, what? Qvist is in no way cleared. Like, at all.

I consider him more cleared than everyone else.

*besides me and robz.

[ftl]

In order of public knowledge:
Robz is most cleared, since he was announced as resistance by Qvist and succeeded in a Mission with him and Qvist
Qvist is next cleared, since he passed a mission with Robz
Cayvie gets a little bit of clearance since she proposed the Qvist/Robz team

Not cleared to anybody but themselves - everyone else.

[Qvist]

That's really difficult. I really don't know how to vote, all sounds pretty reasonable.
I have no read on Galzria, that's why I'm doubting.
I still think cayvie is the better choice. When is the deadline? In 12 hours right? Anyone wants to convince me voting for or against it?

Sorry I've been at comic-con all weekend.

You just made me super-jealous.

Bwahaha, perks of being in the industry!

Wait, WHAT?

I'm a video game programmer, I'll probably write an introduction about myself in the Intro forum when I get around to it.

I'm jealous too 

[Axxle]

Why is cayvie so trustworthy? I really don't understand. Because she suggested a team that would work? Any team would do that.

[ftl]

Nothing in particular about cayvie. But who else is trustworthy? As I said earlier, Robz, Qvist, and Cayvie are the only people with towntells, at least very ones in the last case.

I suppose you could always go on a fishing expedition and just pick someone  else random. Like me! (That's assuming Qvist is actually a resistance; if he's a spy, he'll have his own logic for figuring out who he wants to be on a team with.)

We have a lot of votes left until the deadly 5, and the team is mostly set anyway, no particular reason to hurry and accept the 1st one.

[Axxle]

Nothing in particular about cayvie. But who else is trustworthy? As I said earlier, Robz, Qvist, and Cayvie are the only people with towntells, at least very ones in the last case.

I suppose you could always go on a fishing expedition and just pick someone  else random. Like me! (That's assuming Qvist is actually a resistance; if he's a spy, he'll have his own logic for figuring out who he wants to be on a team with.)

We have a lot of votes left until the deadly 5, and the team is mostly set anyway, no particular reason to hurry and accept the 1st one.

[TootOwnHorn]I think my push for Robz getting to give away the power cards is at least as resistance friendly as Cayvie's suggestion for the team[/TootOwnHorn]

[ftl]

Fair enough, I'd buy that

[ftl]

Except then the numbers of resistance don't add up

[ftl]

So at least one, and probably more of you four are actually spies...

[Robz888]

I put Galzria on the mission because if it fails, we know he is a spy and to never put him on the mission again.

[Galzria]

I put Galzria on the mission because if it fails, we know he is a spy and to never put him on the mission again.

That's... Completely faulty, not thought through, intentionally misleading logic - and what's worse, following it would cause a Resistance loss. If this mission fails, I know for a FACT that Qvist is a Spy, and Robz very well still could be as well.

[Qvist]

I put Galzria on the mission because if it fails, we know he is a spy and to never put him on the mission again.

Galzria could be a spy, but I'm not so worried because of the Opinion Maker. Of course he says "yes" if he's proposed to be in the mission, he would be as Resistance as he would be as Spy because you and I are Resistance. So, I rather have another one in the mission because we will have a read of Galzrias Opinion Maker and the vote of the person in the mission.

[Galzria]

I put Galzria on the mission because if it fails, we know he is a spy and to never put him on the mission again.

To elaborate on my post above:

Did you forget that Qvist could be a Spy who reported you Resistance (regardless of what your role really is)? And is the fact that he cleared a 2-man mission then really surprising? If he's a Spy, failing it would instantly reveal him (If he were Resistance, he wouldn't lie about your alignment, thus if the first mission failed, he was a Spy).

Given that, his credibility is only VERY slightly above null to me. Yours is the highest, but Qvist all but HAD to pass M1, regardless of alignment.

[Tables]

Mission 2.1 proposed by: Robz888:
Team Proposed: Robz888, Qvist, Galzria
Voting YES: Cayvie, Robz888, Galzria
Voting NO: ftl, Qvist, Axxle, Grujah
Result: Yes - 3, No - 4
Proposal Fails

Leadership passes to Qvist, who has 5 days to propose a team

[Qvist]

So, we have more info now. Exactly what I wanted.
And indeed cayvie voted yes, another sign for me to propose the team I had in mind.

### For Mission 2, I propose Robz888, Qvist, and cayvie.

[Galzria]

I've got to Vote: No. I liked the last mission setup the best, as it had me over Cayvie (and I know that I'm Resistance). That said, I'm 5th leader, and if it gets down to me, my proposed team will be the same as M2:A1.

[cayvie]

Welp, if I liked the last one, I've gotta say I like this one even more (I'm voting YES)

[Robz888]

I like this mission just as much as the last one, basically.

[Qvist]

I've got to Vote: No. I liked the last mission setup the best, as it had me over Cayvie (and I know that I'm Resistance). That said, I'm 5th leader, and if it gets down to me, my proposed team will be the same as M2:A1.

Of course you don't like it. You are a Spy and know that there are 3 Resistance members on the team. So we have basically 3 times "yes" and only need one more yes for that team. Where is the other Resistance member?

[ftl]

I'm not going to get in on this mission, pretty sure, nobody has any particular reason to trust me and I'm far along the food chain now.

I suppose before I vote yes to this, what missions would you be proposing if you got a chance at it, Axxle and Grujah? I'm leaning yes, since I did put cayvie as more likely resistance than any of you on first glance, but I suppose I'm willing to consider if there are any other reasonable options?

[Galzria]

Let me see if I understand Qvist:

- Robz says something that isn't entirely true.

- I point out the oversight in his logic, and why you could still be a Spy

- You come out with "Galzria IS a Spy"

That about sum it up? What's wrong? Didn't like that I pointed out that you weren't in the clear? That nothing you had done would be out of place for a Spy? Really now. I'm correcting a hole in his logic. I think the M2A1 team WOULD have passed. But if it didn't, I would've known for sure who caused it.

[Qvist]

Wow, you're really in the defense, desperately trying to justify yourself.

But it's simple.
Robz is most likely Resistance for you, I'm sure he is.
I'm more likely Resistance than everybody else. I'm sure I am.
If anybody is most likely Resistance then it's cayvie.

I don't know anything about you yet. Voting "No", just to desperately get on the mission on your own is a pure Spy move. In a Resistance point of view the current mission has the best chances to suceed. Why voting no? It has nothing to do, that Robz said something not entirely true. It has nothing to do pointing that out and reminding everyone that I can still be a Spy.
It's the "No" vote, I really can't understand.

[Galzria]

I'm defensive because you flat out called me a Spy, which is wrong! How do you EXPECT me to react? "Oh, that's ok. I'm really resistance but thinking otherwise is fine too I guess..."?:

I've got to Vote: No. I liked the last mission setup the best, as it had me over Cayvie (and I know that I'm Resistance). That said, I'm 5th leader, and if it gets down to me, my proposed team will be the same as M2:A1.

Of course you don't like it. You are a Spy and know that there are 3 Resistance members on the team. So we have basically 3 times "yes" and only need one more yes for that team. Where is the other Resistance member?

Now, after I again call you out, you backpedal to say that really you don't know anything about my alignment. Really? That wasn't very clear from the above post!

As to wanting myself over Cayvie... Um, have you seen either of our PM's? Is there a reason you say I should trust hers more than my own? Because she proposed you and Robz when everybody here was in agreement that it was a fine choice? C'mon.

I know my PM. I find it ludicrous that you claim I'm scummy for wanting myself over an unknown. I want the mission to succeed. It had the best chance of doing so before. I know this to be true. The fact that I am in line this round to make it happen makes voting No to any other proposed mission the most logical thing to do.

[Grujah]

Welp, if I liked the last one, I've gotta say I like this one even more (I'm voting YES)

Why did you YES the last mission when you knew that this one will be better from your point of view (Qvist announced it)?

[cayvie]

Welp, if I liked the last one, I've gotta say I like this one even more (I'm voting YES)

Why did you YES the last mission when you knew that this one will be better from your point of view (Qvist announced it)?

Because I was fine with the team. Also, I would have preferred to have Qvist hand out the cards than anyone in the next 4 after him.

[Qvist]

Of course I've not seen any PMs, Galzria. I'm just claiming, like everyone else here. Of course you can trust yourself more than anyone else, but that's not the issue.
It's about the chances that this mission will suceed. And I'm pretty sure this team has big chances, IMO, the best. If cayvie is a spy and you're not, that's really unlucky, yeah, but no-one knows for sure, so I gave it a try.

[Axxle]

Something about Qvist's behavior is really off-putting right now.  I'll try to figure out what it is but it's a gut feeling at the moment.

[ftl]

Perhaps. I mean, Qvist isn't confirmed resistance or anything, but he did pass the mission. But, well, do you have a better suggestion for the team?

I know the team that Galz would propose; what team would you send?

[Axxle]

Perhaps. I mean, Qvist isn't confirmed resistance or anything, but he did pass the mission. But, well, do you have a better suggestion for the team?

I know the team that Galz would propose; what team would you send?

I think Me/Cayvie/Robz.  I'd have to read over everything a second time though.

[Robz888]

Perhaps. I mean, Qvist isn't confirmed resistance or anything, but he did pass the mission. But, well, do you have a better suggestion for the team?

I know the team that Galz would propose; what team would you send?

I think Me/Cayvie/Robz.  I'd have to read over everything a second time though.

Uh, I kind of think every team should include me AND Qvist for now, until a mission fails. Then maybe we re-evaluate Qvist.

[Qvist]

Voting deadline comes close. And I totally agree with Robz.
I can understand that you still don't trust me, but the risk proposing anyone else than me or Robz is higher because we don't know anything about anyone else yet.

[Tables]

Mission 2.2 proposed by: Qvist:
Team Proposed: Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist
Voting YES: Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist
Voting NO: ftl, Axxle, Grujah, Galzria
Result: Yes - 3, No - 4
Proposal Fails

Leadership passes to Axxle

[Tables]

Also advanced warning: I won't be online until Sunday evening due to being away. This might just give you some extra time on a vote, or it might not affect anything except official answers to questions

[ftl]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh I screwed up I thought I'd voted yes for that but I'd only sent conditional orders for how to use KaCEoY if it passes, I meant to vote after Axxle and Grujah responded but then I forgot

Dammit. Sorry.

OK, but it IS weird to me that everyone not on the team voted against it. I didn't think that this had a serious chance of failing.

[cayvie]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh I screwed up I thought I'd voted yes for that but I'd only sent conditional orders for how to use KaCEoY if it passes, I meant to vote after Axxle and Grujah responded but then I forgot

Dammit. Sorry.

OK, but it IS weird to me that everyone not on the team voted against it. I didn't think that this had a serious chance of failing.

Pretty sure the logical conclusion is that Robz, Qvist, and myself all have the same alignment.

If one or two of us were a Spy, then surely the Spy on the outside would vote for this so that it would get passed.

[Grujah]

Or not, as not to incriminate himself.

I.e. to spy its best if a mission passes and he voted NO.
I voted no as I voted no on Galz, and I said both of you are more or less the same to me. Plus I trust myself most and I am after Axxle. And worst thing that could happen is original Qvist/Robz/Galz team, I guess.

[ftl]

Pretty sure the logical conclusion is that Robz, Qvist, and myself all have the same alignment.

If one or two of us were a Spy, then surely the Spy on the outside would vote for this so that it would get passed.

Well, if there were two spies on the team, then maybe the spies would want a different team, with only one spy on it. Easier to sabotage without double-sabotaging.

But yeah.

[ftl]

I think any spy would have been in the clear voting for this without incriminating themselves... so I'd guess that the team has either 0 or 2 spies on it. 3 seems unlikely. So maybe even 0.

I like the team even more now that it's failed to be selected though I guess I'm not too sad it failed, it gave us information at least.

[Robz888]

There are 3 Spies? Axxle, Grujah, and Galzria. Easiest game of Resistance ever.

[cayvie]

There are 3 Spies? Axxle, Grujah, and Galzria. Easiest game of Resistance ever.

I'm on board with this read.

[cayvie]

Also, if it is correct, then the Spies have gotten absurdly unlucky this game.

[Robz888]

Also, if it is correct, then the Spies have gotten absurdly unlucky this game.

The Spies got absurdly unlucky last game, too (I was one of 'em). Although this would be even worse luck.

[ftl]

Yeah, I'm not sure. I would not feel confident in that guess, though I suppose that would be my guess too.

Well, we have to play on and see whether that's it, I suppose. Sorry again for messing up that last vote if those really are the spies, then we're guaranteed a sabotage on this next mission now.

[Qvist]

Man, ftl, that was bad. Nevermind... I agree with all of you that these are most likely the spies.
Let's see what Axxle does now.

[Axxle]

Hmm... hmm...

ftl's reaction to the vote sounds implausible and rehearsed.  you guys all seem to take it face value really bugs me.  2 reasons I see him failing it is that it was an all town team, and/or he wanted to manipulate the cards.

### For Mission 2, I propose Robz888, Axxle, and cayvie.

[Robz888]

Hmm... hmm...

ftl's reaction to the vote sounds implausible and rehearsed.  you guys all seem to take it face value really bugs me.  2 reasons I see him failing it is that it was an all town team, and/or he wanted to manipulate the cards.

### For Mission 2, I propose Robz888, Axxle, and cayvie.

Well, I lean toward thinking Cayvie is town, and this might be better than a mission proposed by Galz or Grujah. I don't know. This isn't ideal, but it might be best case scenario this round.

[Galzria]

Hmm... hmm...

ftl's reaction to the vote sounds implausible and rehearsed.  you guys all seem to take it face value really bugs me.  2 reasons I see him failing it is that it was an all town team, and/or he wanted to manipulate the cards.

### For Mission 2, I propose Robz888, Axxle, and cayvie.

Don't trust you, don't trust Cayvie. Vote: No

I do however, approve of Robz. He's only scum if Qvist is, and unless they've hoodwinked the whole game, I'm just not a believer in them both being Spies.

[ftl]

Hmm... hmm...

ftl's reaction to the vote sounds implausible and rehearsed.  you guys all seem to take it face value really bugs me.  2 reasons I see him failing it is that it was an all town team, and/or he wanted to manipulate the cards.

### For Mission 2, I propose Robz888, Axxle, and cayvie.

It's the former. It was an all-town team. If Grujah or Galz proposes it again, I'll vote yes on it, I swear.

[cayvie]

Hmmm... how strongly do I believe in this Gruj/Galz/Axxle scumteam?

Enough to vote against until Galz's proposal, so that ftl gets to hand out the cards?

[ftl]

OK, I shouldn't be so sure. I'm not convinced they're town, but the three of them town with me the town idiot, and with you/grujah/galzria spy, seems pretty consistent with votes  so far.

To confirm - we are allowed to vote this one down, and then we have Grujah's proposed team, and then we HAVE to agree to Galzria's?

...hmm, Grujah never did say what team he'd propose if he were offered the chance. Actually, he hasn't posted here since the 17th? Where is he?

[ftl]

(that was in response to axxle's post, the "you" in "you/grujah/galz" was axxle not cayvie)

Ima put in my vote early this time. But this one's easy, a definite no, I think.

...I think with Axxle's proposal, it's pretty clearly a spy proposal. Do I need to explain why?

[ftl]

...if the people who I think are likely to be town now see why I think so, then I'll leave it unexplained for the spies

[Axxle]

OK, I shouldn't be so sure. I'm not convinced they're town, but the three of them town with me the town idiot, and with you/grujah/galzria spy, seems pretty consistent with votes  so far.

To confirm - we are allowed to vote this one down, and then we have Grujah's proposed team, and then we HAVE to agree to Galzria's?

...hmm, Grujah never did say what team he'd propose if he were offered the chance. Actually, he hasn't posted here since the 17th? Where is he?

he posted earlier today.

[ftl]

Oh god dammit. I even searched for his name in the thread and missed that one.

I'm not at the top of my game right now, am I.

[Tables]

Due to being away this weekend, this proposal will have an extended deadline to Sunday evening-ish (GMT)

[Robz888]

Hmmm... how strongly do I believe in this Gruj/Galz/Axxle scumteam?

Enough to vote against until Galz's proposal, so that ftl gets to hand out the cards?

That may be a good idea. Yeah, I'm probably going to vote against this mission.

[Axxle]

ftl's done some pretty scummy things so far.  Taking that card, lying about failing that proposal, I don't want him handing out the cards.

[ftl]

Taking the card was the right move as either team. Screwing up that proposal... yeah, that wasn't good

[ftl]

Well, if it comes to that, I can just let confirmed townies tell me what to do with cards, I'm pretty sure if it comes to that I'll be able to figure out a publically trustable figure besides me.

...waaait I shouldn't be listening to you Axxle I don't trust you especially after your proposal. And you voted against that mission! So why are you holding it against me if you agree with where my vote ended up?

[Axxle]

Well, if it comes to that, I can just let confirmed townies tell me what to do with cards, I'm pretty sure if it comes to that I'll be able to figure out a publically trustable figure besides me.

...waaait I shouldn't be listening to you Axxle I don't trust you especially after your proposal. And you voted against that mission! So why are you holding it against me if you agree with where my vote ended up?

I'm trying to be very transparent in what I'm doing.  You are not.  That's the difference.

[Qvist]

I think this vote is an easy choice. Axxle wasn't very spy-ish yet, but through process of elimination, he kind of has to be.

[cayvie]

Just kinda a meta comment about Resistance v Mafia:

I really like that there's not this pressure to make sure you say everything you think is important all at once. In Resistance, you can afford to wait and get a little more info on your reads: you're not going to die.

[Tables]

Mission 2.3 proposed by: Axxle:
Team Proposed: Cayvie, Robz888, Axxle
Voting YES: Axxle
Voting NO: ftl, Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist, Grujah, Galzria
Result: Yes - 1, No - 6
Proposal Fails

(Can those of you who failed to submit orders in time please be more careful)

Leadership passes to Grujah

[Grujah]

##Proposal: Grujah, Qvist, Robz888

[ftl]

Hm, I'm torn on this one. Got nothing against this team, so might as well vote yes. But it's basically equivalent in my mind to the team Galz wants, Galz/Qvist/Robz , and if this one fails and Galz's passes then I get cards again! Yay cards! So maybe I should vote no. ...but if someone screws up and forgets to vote on Galz's team, then we insta-lose if that team doesn't pass. So maybe I should vote yes on this one, just in case. And cards are pro-resistance no matter who gives them out.

[Galzria]

Apologies for the delay. I think that it should be clear by now that unless the team is Robz/Qvist/Myself, I'm going to Vote: No.

I don't like the fact that ftl will take the cards if it comes down to my proposal, but at least we'll be up 2-0 going in. My list, for what it's worth, on most likely Spy to least (as you all seem to suspect me and I know that to be wrong, it's at least worth presenting my views):

Cayvie, Grujah, ftl, Axxle, Qvist, Robz, Myself

Anyway, as noted, my proposal will be Myself, Robz, and Qvist. If Grujah's gets turned down (and I do hope you'll join me in voting no?) we absolutely cannot have someone forget to vote on mine, as it's proposal #5, and a failure to pass results in a Spy win.

[Robz888]

I oppose this mission, not because I think that Galz's mission will be better, but because I want to burn off as many proposals as possible to get back around to the people I am more confident of: Ftl, Cayvie, myself, and Qvist.

[cayvie]

Thinking out loud here, do I have a reason to trust ftl > Grujah at all?

If ftl = spy and Gruj = Resistance, then I should vote FOR this, and then Galz hands out cards.

If Gruj = spy and ftl = Resistance, then I should vote against this, and then ftl hands out cards.

They *could* both be Resistance, which would make the team Robz, ftl, Grujah, and me. And would make Qvist, Galz, and Axxle the spies. Is this consistent?

If they're both spies, then... that means I should vote against this, as I have no idea what Galz's alignment is in that case. The third spy could be Axxle, Qvist, or Galz.

Oh, there's the KACEOY card that ftl has. I'm inclined to believe that he and Galz are not scumbuddies, because he gave opinion maker to Galz. I also don't think he's buddies with Qvist, because he made it easier to investigate Qvist by taking the card from him.

Okay, I think I've convinced myself to vote against, and for Galz's proposal.

[Qvist]

I'm in, Robz is in, but is there any reason to trust Grujah? I agree with Robz, I'll wait.
Side Note: I didn't count, but ftl is the last chance for Resistance or is it Galzria?

[Robz888]

I'm in, Robz is in, but is there any reason to trust Grujah? I agree with Robz, I'll wait.
Side Note: I didn't count, but ftl is the last chance for Resistance or is it Galzria?

We have to approve Galzria's mission.

[Tables]

Reminder for those who have not voted yet to submit your votes before the deadline

[Tables]

Mission 2.4 proposed by: Grujah:
Team Proposed: Robz888, Qvist, Grujah
Voting YES: Grujah
Voting NO: ftl, Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist, Axxle, Galzria
Result: Yes - 1, No - 6
Proposal Fails

Galzria is the new leader. As this is mission 5 I will auto-assume everyone votes yes, unless someone objects. Those of you with relevant plot cards (I think that's just Galz, who is making the proposal, and ftl) will be given an oppertunity to use them, however.

[Galzria]

Nice and simple:
## I propose Qvist/Robz/Galzria

Vote: Yes

[Robz888]

Tables, I will just be voting Yes, obviously.

[Qvist]

Yeah, this will be easy.

[ftl]

Voting yes of course.

[Axxle]

I'm voting NO yes.

[Axxle]

I mean the alternative is lose right?

[cayvie]

I mean the alternative is lose right?

Yep.

Pretty sure everyone votes obvyes here, not even a real need to discuss it

[ftl]

OK so someone's V/LA or nonresponsive, how has this mission not been accepted yet...

[Tables]

Mission 2.5 proposed by: Galzria:
Team Proposed: Robz888, Qvist, Galzria
Voting YES (assumed): ftl, Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist, Axxle, Grujah, Galzria
Voting NO: None
Result: Yes - 7, No - 0
Proposal passes

ftl uses Keeping a Close Eye on You on Galzria and sees his mission card.

Mission 2 Results
Co-operating: 3
Sabotage: 0
Mission succeeds. Score is now Resistance - 2, Spies - 0

Leadership passes to ftl, who draws In the Spotlight and Opinion Maker

[Robz888]

Ftl, what is Galzria's mission card?

[Galzria]

Ftl, what is Galzria's mission card?

The mission passed, Robz.

[Robz888]

Ftl, what is Galzria's mission card?

The mission passed, Robz.

We still need him to say what your card was...

[Galzria]

Ftl, what is Galzria's mission card?

The mission passed, Robz.

We still need him to say what your card was...

But.. I guess... I'm confused? Ok, for Robz..

ftl, what was my card?

[Robz888]

Ftl, what is Galzria's mission card?

The mission passed, Robz.

We still need him to say what your card was...

But.. I guess... I'm confused? Ok, for Robz..

ftl, what was my card?

You could be a Spy who voted to pass the mission, right?

[Tables]

Uhh, yeah, actually, I should have sent the information to him before resolving the mission. I actually didn't, knowing everyone was co-operating. My bad.

In other news, Axxle has been replaced with Imsomniac

[Tables]

I think it's worth clarifying: In The Spotlight is given to a player, who may use it at any time before a mission

[ftl]

The mission passed; so everyone cooperated and nobody sabotaged; so my KaCEoY also saw that  Galz cooperated and didn't sabotage. (I don't get to see their role card, I only get to see how they voted.)

So either everyone on that last mission really was town, or the spies decided to keep hiding, because if there was a spy my KaCEoY would have known exactly who it is.

[ftl]

OK, so I give "in the spotlight" to someone, and they get to force somebody else to play their mission card faceup?

Or do I give "in the spotlight" to someone, and they have to place their next mission card faceup?

[ftl]

Oh, OK, I looked it up. It's the former.

I can give In The Spotlight to somebody; let's say it's Robz. Then, before the next mission, Robz can play In The Spotlight to say "Galzria, you must play your mission card face up"!

For example.

[ftl]

Ima probably gonna give Opinion Maker to Insomniaxxle and In The Spotlight to Robz? Probably? Unless people have comments or unless I misunderstood ITS.

Not sure what team to propose. 3 people. Galz/Robz/Qvist is an option since it worked. I trust me more than Galz, so me/Qvist/Robz is something I'm also considering. (well, I trust me more than Qvist too, but Robz/Qvist will stay paired unless Qvist is proven spy.) But that'll just get voted down, then cayvie's will be voted down, and Robz's will be passed, so maybe I should just cut to the chase and re-propose the same team.

[Robz888]

Oops, Galzria I'm sorry. I confused mission card with role card--I thought you had to show the role card. My mistake.

[cayvie]

Oh... I thought you got to save KaCEOY until after you saw the results of the mission

[cayvie]

I'm willing to vote for Qvist/Robz/Galz again, as well as Qvist/Robz/Myself.

[Robz888]

Qvist/Robz/Galz again sounds good.

[Insomniac]

Hey guys Inxxle here! One more mission!

[ftl]

OK, well, online FAQs confirm that In The Spotlight works the way I think it does.

##I give In The Spotlight to Robz888

I believe that the way it works, after a mission is accepted, you get to choose one person and they have to make their sabotage/no sabotage choice in public. I'd suggest Galzria again...

##I give Opinion Maker to Inxxle

I don't know how the two Opinion Makers interact with each other. I guess Inxxle has to vote first now?

##I propose Qvist, Robz888, and Galzria to go on Mission 3

[Insomniac]

I'm going to Vote:Yes

If it succeeds we win. If it doesn't we know a lot more about who the spies are. And this group passed mission 2 so it seems like a likely win.

[Qvist]

Wow, either the spies had really bad luck so far or the spies have a big conspiracy going on.
I didn't think the mission would pass. Now, it'll be an easy choice for voting.

[Galzria]

I too will be Voteing: Yes

This game may go smoother than even R-I did. In that game we had to get all 4 Resistance on the winning mission to sweep 3-0. I'm beginning to think being a Spy would suck. They are 0-5 in all f.DS missions thusfar.

Any parting thoughts anybody?

[cayvie]

Hmm.

Well, I know this mission isn't going to pass.

ftl, Qvist, Robz, and Galzria can't all be Resistance, because I'm Resistance. (And if ftl were a Spy and the other three were Resistance, then there's no way he'd propose this.)

Also, it's frickin' obvious to me that Insomniac is a Spy here. The same argument I just made applies to him from his point of view; surely, if he were Resistance, he'd be capable of reaching the same conclusion.

Hey Insomniac: you, ftl, Robz, Qvist, and Galzria can't all be Resistance, so there's clearly a Spy on board if you are Resistance.
"Likely win?" lol.

However, I have no way of knowing for sure whether Galzria or Qvist is the Spy on this mission. Or, heck, both of them. (And, if Qvist is the Spy, whether Robz is as well).

I think I've got no choice but to believe Robz is Resistance here. And it doesn't really matter which of the two he investigates; he'll find out who failed it either way.

Because I know this mission will be sabotaged, if it gets passed. However, I will get to hand out the next set of cards. And, hey, if I know anyone's Resistance, it's me.

[cayvie]

"I know this mission isn't going to pass" = "I know this mission isn't going to succeed"

[ftl]

Yeah, Insominac/Axxle is obvspy. 

Robz should probably make Galzria be the one to make his card public. Because then if this mission fails and Galz isn't the one who sabotaged, it'll be obvious that Qvist is the spy to everyone; if Robz makes Qvist reveal, then if Qvist turns out not to be our saboteur, it'll technically be unclear whether Galz sabotaged or whether Qvist and Robz were both spies trying to play a really long game and Robz sabotaged. Robz will know of course.

We'll see what happens. If you really are resistance, Cayvie, I have no idea what to make of the fact that the previous one passed. Either Resistance has been obscenely lucky, or spies misplayed; but we'll be able to talk about that after the game is over, I don't want to talk spy tactics until the game is *actually* over.

[cayvie]

Yeah, Insominac/Axxle is obvspy. 

Robz should probably make Galzria be the one to make his card public. Because then if this mission fails and Galz isn't the one who sabotaged, it'll be obvious that Qvist is the spy to everyone; if Robz makes Qvist reveal, then if Qvist turns out not to be our saboteur, it'll technically be unclear whether Galz sabotaged or whether Qvist and Robz were both spies trying to play a really long game and Robz sabotaged. Robz will know of course.

We'll see what happens. If you really are resistance, Cayvie, I have no idea what to make of the fact that the previous one passed. Either Resistance has been obscenely lucky, or spies misplayed; but we'll be able to talk about that after the game is over, I don't want to talk spy tactics until the game is *actually* over.

Yep, you're right: Galz should absolutely be the target of In the Spotlight.

[cayvie]

I'm voting yes.

We can afford one failed mission at this point. The info it gives us will set us up for what should be a very easy Mission 4.

If Robz targets Galzria with In the Spotlight, we'll know for sure either that Galz is a Spy, or that Qvist is a Spy.

Combined with Insomniac's obvscummitude, that means we will know two of the three Spies, leaving a maximum of 1 hiding among us.

I just have to propose any four people without either of our known spies on it, and it will be a success (since Mission 4 requires 2 sabotages to fail).

[cayvie]

lol at my rhetorical math there.

3 - 2 = a maximum of one.

[Insomniac]

I'm voting yes.

We can afford one failed mission at this point. The info it gives us will set us up for what should be a very easy Mission 4.

If Robz targets Galzria with In the Spotlight, we'll know for sure either that Galz is a Spy, or that Qvist is a Spy.

Combined with Insomniac's obvscummitude, that means we will know two of the three Spies, leaving a maximum of 1 hiding among us.

I just have to propose any four people without either of our known spies on it, and it will be a success (since Mission 4 requires 2 sabotages to fail).

Lol I vote yes and I'm obvspy, cayvie votes yes and thats acceptable? I haven't played this game before but if the mission were to fail we know who a spy is which is still a win because worst case scenario.

Resistance 2 - Spies 0
Mission 3 fails - Galz's card is public, if Galz failed the mission he doesn't go on anymore, 1 spy known. Resistance 2 - Spies 1
Mission 4 requires TWO failures - ignoring the possibility for cards you send
           if mission 3 fails and galz is a spy you send Robz/Qvist/Not Galz/Not Galz.
                if mission 4 then it is a bit trickier but you can send Robz and probably 3 others based on who is most likely resistance, we could lose here but its a                                           pretty tough way to lose

           if mission 3 fails and galz passed it. You send Galz/Robz/Not Qvist/Not Qvist
             if mission 4 then fails you send Galz/Robz and 2 people not on mission 3 (again really unlikely to pick wrong)

So the knowledge that this mission gives us all but guarantees resistance a win.

[Tables]

Mission 3.1 proposed by: ftl:
Team Proposed: Robz888, Qvist, Galzria
Voting YES: ftl, Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist, Insomniac, Grujah, Galzria
Voting NO: None
Result: Yes - 7, No - 0
Proposal passes

Standard 24 hour wait for mission choices

Also a note on Opinion Maker: I believe the most sensible way to resolve this is to not care too much about order, however, in the case it does matter, the cards will be resolved clockwise from the leader: i.e. When Grujah or Galzria is the leader, Insomniac has the right to wait until seeing Galzria's vote before voting, otherwise (when ftl, Cayvie, Robz, Qvist or Insomniac is the leader), Galzria has the right to wait until seeing Insomniac's vote before voting.

[Insomniac]

Imsomniac

[Tables]

I was wondering why it didn't sound right...

[Robz888]

Okay, I do want to use In the Spotlight on Galzria. When do I use it?

[Tables]

Now, if you want to use it

[Robz888]

I use In the Spotlight on Galzria.

[Tables]

Galzria, please post your mission choice in the thread.

I'm going to assume that, if Gazlria were a spy and sabotaged, any other spies would not sabotage this. Therefore, any other spies on the mission, please CO your choice assuming Galzria passes the mission

[cayvie]

Hey Galz, enjoying Mafia VII?

Surely your decision here is really easy.

[Galzria]

I use In the Spotlight on Galzria.

Apologies for the delay! So many things going on - I'm still behind!

Alright, glad this is out of the way now. I was really worried about 2 anti-spy cards given the upcoming missions, so it was MORE than worth it to slide down 1-2 to burn KaCEoY.

Well spies, well played. I'm feeling pretty darn good about this: ## I sabotage this mission!

Now, the fun begins!

[Insomniac]

I use In the Spotlight on Galzria.

Apologies for the delay! So many things going on - I'm still behind!

Alright, glad this is out of the way now. I was really worried about 2 anti-spy cards given the upcoming missions, so it was MORE than worth it to slide down 1-2 to burn KaCEoY.

Well spies, well played. I'm feeling pretty darn good about this: ## I sabotage this mission!

Now, the fun begins!

Bah! failed mission , but at least we know we can't send Galz. Which probably means we can trust Robz/Qvist right?

[Galzria]

I use In the Spotlight on Galzria.

Apologies for the delay! So many things going on - I'm still behind!

Alright, glad this is out of the way now. I was really worried about 2 anti-spy cards given the upcoming missions, so it was MORE than worth it to slide down 1-2 to burn KaCEoY.

Well spies, well played. I'm feeling pretty darn good about this: ## I sabotage this mission!

Now, the fun begins!

Bah! failed mission , but at least we know we can't send Galz. Which probably means we can trust Robz/Qvist right?

Pretty much.

[Insomniac]

I use In the Spotlight on Galzria.

Apologies for the delay! So many things going on - I'm still behind!

Alright, glad this is out of the way now. I was really worried about 2 anti-spy cards given the upcoming missions, so it was MORE than worth it to slide down 1-2 to burn KaCEoY.

Well spies, well played. I'm feeling pretty darn good about this: ## I sabotage this mission!

Now, the fun begins!

Bah! failed mission , but at least we know we can't send Galz. Which probably means we can trust Robz/Qvist right?

Because he would have passed the mission as a spy with spotlight on him if one of them was a spy too? or maybe not, maybe he thought it was better to out himself then one of those who already had a lot of trust (Robz/Qvist)

[cayvie]

Bah! failed mission , but at least we know we can't send Galz. Which probably means we can trust Robz/Qvist right?

Well, we know that if Robz is Spy, so is Qvist.

It's still *technically* possible for Robz, Qvist, and Galz to all be Spies.
More likely, Robz is Resistance. He's passed up a couple opportunities to do things like argue that he should hold onto the card or use it on Qvist.

Qvist, however, we still don't know anything about for certain. I'm leaning toward Resistance, but his behavior is still easily explicable as Spy.

HOWEVER: this little exchange between Galz and Insomniac happening as I type this makes me realllly think Qvist is Resistance, and Galz/Ins are Spyfriends.

[Galzria]

Bah! failed mission , but at least we know we can't send Galz. Which probably means we can trust Robz/Qvist right?

Well, we know that if Robz is Spy, so is Qvist.

It's still *technically* possible for Robz, Qvist, and Galz to all be Spies.
More likely, Robz is Resistance. He's passed up a couple opportunities to do things like argue that he should hold onto the card or use it on Qvist.

Qvist, however, we still don't know anything about for certain. I'm leaning toward Resistance, but his behavior is still easily explicable as Spy.

HOWEVER: this little exchange between Galz and Insomniac happening as I type this makes me realllly think Qvist is Resistance, and Galz/Ins are Spyfriends.

I agree with this assessment. Actually, I thought my original respond of "pretty much" was to you - but I stand by it.

[cayvie]

By the way, everyone:

We can basically agree to ignore whatever Galzria says from here on out, right? We know he's a Spy, and he knows we know this, so whatever he says has to be designed to sow maximum confusion. Better to just ignore him and let him rant into empty space.

[Galzria]

By the way, everyone:

We can basically agree to ignore whatever Galzria says from here on out, right? We know he's a Spy, and he knows we know this, so whatever he says has to be designed to sow maximum confusion. Better to just ignore him and let him rant into empty space.

You should listen to Cayvie. You'll need her to win.

[Qvist]

The mission failed? Wow, I already was really surprised that Mission 2 suceeded because I was pretty sure Galzria is a spy. Now he really is! But we're still in a very good condition now. I'm leaning towards ftl and cayvie being Resistance members #3 and #4. And Mission 4 has 4 members, but needs 2 No's to be sabotaged, it's obvious which 4 people I propose for this mission: Robz, me, cayvie and ftl.

[cayvie]

The mission failed? Wow, I already was really surprised that Mission 2 suceeded because I was pretty sure Galzria is a spy. Now he really is! But we're still in a very good condition now. I'm leaning towards ftl and cayvie being Resistance members #3 and #4. And Mission 4 has 4 members, but needs 2 No's to be sabotaged, it's obvious which 4 people I propose for this mission: Robz, me, cayvie and ftl.

That's the team I'm leaning toward as well, but I'm going to wait to see what cards I get first.

[Robz888]

That's definitely the best possible team at this point, I think: me/qvist/ftl/cayvie.

[ftl]

One failed spy mission, one revealed spy. So it goes. I'm still not sure why Galz didn't do this for the previous mission - it would have been the exact same result, failed mission with the same 3 people with the exact same information coming out on a failure. But oh well, we now know not to include him on anything, any team with him gets autofailed.

Potential tinfoil hat theory: because Qvist is a spybuddy of his, and he didn't know whether to sabotage or not and didn't want to doublesabotage! Meh, but there's no evidence of it yet, Qvist hasn't been scummy.

We know Galz is spy.

I strongly, strongly suspect that Insomniaxxle is spy based on a previous proposal of his. (At one point he proposed himself, Cayvie, and Robz, splitting up the Qvist/Robz pair. I thought this was an obvspy move. As spy, he could have wanted to either sow confusion - after failing the mission, either he, Cayvie, OR Robz could have been the saboteur. Or, he could have wanted to avoid doublesabotaging if He AND Qvist were both spies. ...I saw no explanation for that team if he were resistance, besides vaguely saying he "doesn't trust qvist".)

There's a third spy; I don't have any strong suspicions there. It could be anybody - Cayvie, Qvist, or Grujah. But for mission 4 we need to avoid including 2 spies, so if we exclude Galzria and Insomniac we should be ok.

What do people think of my Insomniaxxle-is-probably-spy logic, BTW? 

[Tables]

Mission 3 Results
Co-operating: 2
Sabotage: 1
Mission fails. Score is now Resistance - 2, Spies - 1

Leadership passes to Cayvie, who draws No Confidence and No Confidence (yes, two No Confidence's)

[Tables]

This is mission 4. Mission 4 requires two fail cards for the mission to not succeed

[ftl]

Well, that was unhelpful. (the cards)

[cayvie]

Well this has got to be the worst possible draw of cards for me.

Am I allowed to give them both to Robz?

[Insomniac]

Well this has got to be the worst possible draw of cards for me.

Am I allowed to give them both to Robz?

I sure hope so. If you can't I'd say give one to me because I know I'm resistance but you and ftl seem to think I'm a spy which makes me in turn know that one of you IS so I would mainly ask that you don't give one to ftl

[cayvie]

Well this has got to be the worst possible draw of cards for me.

Am I allowed to give them both to Robz?

I sure hope so. If you can't I'd say give one to me because I know I'm resistance but you and ftl seem to think I'm a spy which makes me in turn know that one of you IS so I would mainly ask that you don't give one to ftl

Yeah, the upside on Robz being a potential Spy is that, if Robz is a Spy, that means Qvist is also a Spy, which means we know for certain the entire Spy team, which means we can for sure pass a mission 5.

[cayvie]

##Give No Confidence to Robz888
##Give No Confidence to Robz888

[Robz888]

So when/if I want to use No Confidence I would use it after the votes are tallied but before the chosen team passes or fails the mission, correct?

Thank you, Cayvie, for giving them both to me. That was a very townie thing to do, I think.

[cayvie]

Well, robz, the other thing I was considering was giving one to you and one to Qvist.

But that's just strictly worse.

If you're both Resistance, it's the same.
If you're both Spy, it's the same.
But! If Robz = Resistance, and Qvist = Spy, then it's worse.

Giving them both to you is just a better option.

[ftl]

Well this has got to be the worst possible draw of cards for me.

Am I allowed to give them both to Robz?

I sure hope so. If you can't I'd say give one to me because I know I'm resistance but you and ftl seem to think I'm a spy which makes me in turn know that one of you IS so I would mainly ask that you don't give one to ftl

I'd ask you to explain how your choice of team for Mission 2 makes sense for anyone but a spy, but unfortunately you can't,  since you weren't there, you replaced Axxle. I mean, you can still try to explain your choices, as can everyone... I'm just not seeing it.

Anyone else care to comment?

I would like to hear from Grujah. Also, now is the time to go back through everyone's vote history and see whether we can deduce more about the spies from that.

[cayvie]

I mean, as soon as I get confirmation from the mod that I am in fact allowed to give both cards to Robz, I'm going to

##Propose team: Robz888, Qvist, cayvie, ftl

The only way I can see us losing the game here is if the Spyteam is Qvist, ftl, and Galzria. And I really don't think it is.

[cayvie]

I don't think we need to deduce too much more, ftl; I KNOW Galz is a Spy, and I'm pretty sure Insomniaxxle is.

That leaves a maximum of 1 Spy on the team I just proposed. They need 2 Sabotages.

I think we win.

[ftl]

Or if it's Qvist, you, and Galz :/ I can't logic my way to a convincing enough proof that that's impossible.

It pretty definitively can't be Robz, Qvist, and Galz. Galz's flip confirms Robz as 100% town in my mind.

...anyhow, waiting for Insomniac and Galz to vote, then I'll vote. (Or, you know what? I think I'll send in votes conditional on their votes, so I don't forget again.)

[ftl]

OK, I think I've sufficiently convinced myself that you and Qvist can't be a mafia pair... so I think we're good.

[Galzria]

## I support this assignment: Vote: Yes

[Robz888]

## I support this assignment: Vote: Yes

He's just trying to throw us off, right?

[Galzria]

## I support this assignment: Vote: Yes

He's just trying to throw us off, right?

Not the end of the world if you pass it and it fails. Gives Resistance tons of new information, right?

[ftl]

He's just trying to throw us off, right?

Likely. I'd ignore it when making your decision, either way.

[cayvie]

## I support this assignment: Vote: Yes

He's just trying to throw us off, right?

I am literally trying not to read things Galzria says in this game.

[Insomniac]

I have to Vote: No I know one of ftl and cayvie is a spy possibly both and I'm not convinced Qvist is resistance. I know I am and I know Robz is

[cayvie]

I'm obviously voting for it.

[Qvist]

Robz and me are Resistance for sure, so that both ftl and cayvie are spies is unlikely. Also it was my proposal. I'm obviously voting yes.
I'm just ignoring Galzria's voting, he's trying to make us uncertain.

[Grujah]

Vote: No.
Only 4 Resistance, I am one of them. So one (both?) of cayvie/ftl are Spies.

[Tables]

It is legal to give plot cards all to the same person, as far as I'm aware. You just can't give plot cards to yourself.

Mission 4.1 proposed by: Cayvie:
Team Proposed: ftl, Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist
Voting YES: ftl, Cayvie, Robz888, Qvist, Galzria
Voting NO: Insomniac, Grujah
Result: Yes - 5, No - 2
Proposal passes

I will wait for people to play or pass on Plot cards at this point, although after that this should be easy to resolve (if there are two spies, two spies sabotage, if there aren't, Resistance wins)

[Robz888]

I am not going to use my No Confidences.

[Galzria]

I am not going to use my No Confidences.

Cest la vie.

[Insomniac]

You people should listen to me welcome to a failed mission 4.

[Tables]

Then that's the game.

Resistance win 3-1

Congratulations to ftl, Cayvie, Robz and Qvist on the decisive win. The spies were left in a really bad position right from turn 1 - being the three last in the mission order AND having two nasty plot cards come out right away, which (mostly) luckily went into the best place possible for Resistance, leaving them with an uphill battle right from the start.

[ftl]

Lol, wow. We really did get super-lucky.

Is that two straight resistance games where resistance gets super-lucky? Or is this game really that unbalanced in resistance's favor?

[Robz888]

Haha, this is unbelievable. Oh, and TAKE THAT GALZRIA!!!

[Galzria]

We were pretty much set to lose the moment the cards were shuffled.

I passed mission 2 for two reasons:

#1 - Burn KaCEoY, and pray nothing similar came through (it did. Ugh).

#2 - There would be no faster way to confirm overall suspicions of the teams than to fail the expected fails. M3 would've been ftl (or Cayvie), Qvist and Robz - which would've passed, setting up for a guaranteed win on mission 4. Doing it my way protected my spy partners to the best of my ability.

[Galzria]

Haha, this is unbelievable. Oh, and TAKE THAT GALZRIA!!!

Yeah, yeah. We're even now. We'll see just how long that lasts.

[eHalcyon]

I believe plot cards push it in favour of the Resistance.  But without plot cards, I think it favours the spies too heavily.  I prefer plot cards.

But maybe f.ds should have a game without plot cards?

What about mission targeting?  Does that help the resistance or the spies?

[Insomniac]

Ya when i came in as axxles replacement and saw my team I pretty much knew I as doomed

[eHalcyon]

Also: why have the spies all been clustered at the end in both games so far?

[ftl]

Mission targeting helps resistance, I think. It's one more public choice to be made, at the very least.

If there's interest I'd be happy to mod the next one. Maybe without plot cards, or maybe with hoping for more even luck? Not sure.

[Qvist]

Yeah, we win!! Hooray, well played fellow Resistance members.
It seemed pretty obvious that the spies did have bad luck from the beginning somehow. I like to join another one, hopefully a little easier for the spies.

[Tables]

It's funny. Another forum I mod Resistance on has played 5 games with spy wins, and have reached the point where they think it's basically impossible for Resistance to win in a forum setting (one person made an argument, based on how scumhunting tends to work, that you actually get very little information from voting and the like online, and it ends up with scumhunting being almost totally ineffective). Here, it's almost the other way around. But I think the spies have gotten unluckyish twice, actually, so, eh.

Sorry to Imsomniac, who probably didn't even really need to sub in! I didn't think the game would be over quite THAT quickly .

[ftl]

Well, if you say that it's actually balanced and we're just getting lucky, then no need to change around rules or anything.

Maybe it's just a swingy game, with a lot determined by the luck of the card draw.

[Tables]

Well, it's reasonably balanced in person. I mean, I'm just playing (as close as I can) the literal rules of the meatworld game, but on a forum. Who knows how much forums really affect stuff?

This game was especially unlucky, I think. Normally, the luck of the draw plays a factor, but isn't deciding. Resistance here had a) A resistance member draw Open Up, b) Open Up given to a Resistance member and with no Spies taking missions for a while, it left them in a bad position. I think, yeah, luck probably plays more of a factor with 7+ players though (2 plot cards per round, and all the good plot cards in there)

[Grujah]

Sorry guys, I fucked up when I voted No for Qvist/Robz/Galz mission proposed by Robz.
It was gone after that.

[cayvie]

Question, Galz: early on, the contradiction in premise that I called you out on.

Do you actually think I caught anything?

Also: well done ftl for owning up to that forgotten vote before any of the scum thought to.

[cayvie]

Also: everything random went totally right for Resistance this game. Except my cards at the end when it barely mattered.

Spies never got to distribute cards!

[Galzria]

Question, Galz: early on, the contradiction in premise that I called you out on.

Do you actually think I caught anything?

Also: well done ftl for owning up to that forgotten vote before any of the scum thought to.

No, and every single vote I cast would've been the same if I were Resistance.

[Grujah]

Sorry guys, I fucked up when I voted No for Qvist/Robz/Galz mission proposed by Robz.
It was gone after that.

I actually hoped that Qvist, Robz, Galz and ftl will vote it yes. So that we get a spy mission without spy voting yes (aside from Galz).

[Axxle]

The way I usually play Spy IRL is to get people trusting enough of me to vote me a mission, fail it, they usually know it's me.  But then I just start raging against the machine and behave in such a way that they trust my partners unconditionally.  I tried making enemies of Galz early on, but it never really worked.

[Axxle]

Sorry guys, I fucked up when I voted No for Qvist/Robz/Galz mission proposed by Robz.
It was gone after that.

I actually hoped that Qvist, Robz, Galz and ftl will vote it yes. So that we get a spy mission without spy voting yes (aside from Galz).

Actually wasn't it FTL that messed that up? Was that the one he accidentally voted no?

[ftl]

No, the one I accidentally voted no on was Qvist/Robz/Cayvie, I think.

[Galzria]

No, the one I accidentally voted no on was Qvist/Robz/Cayvie, I think.

That was the ONLY thing that worked in our favor this game. You gave scum a chance to own a mission. If you pass that, us 3 can't exactly propose a team without those 3 onboard in the next Mission, and even acquiring cards wouldn't save us then.