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[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

And I have to chuckle at 22 pages in ~18 hours. It's NUTS to me how adding just a handful more players can add up the post total, even when some are inactive. Anybody care to take bets on # pages at game end?

O can compile our guesses with our names, mod them to the # of players, and use that as his "seconds" marker to determine who his random vote will be on. Closest number wins.

O has disavowed his desire to vote randomly, as he has made clear in his responses to me.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm still very hesitant about Pops, especially in light of J's post #433, but for now I'll join in saying VOTE: JOTHEONAH

1 - Thanks for saying what I thought was too reactionary.
2 - Do you ever sleep?

Oh, and thank you for chiming in on that. I'm interested in hearing others thoughts on his actions to date.

My feelings were that he accused me of empty posting - which I personally didn't find to be true - some of the silliness during the troll voting and quote breaking being a notable exception. 

Then I went back and looked at his posts, and saw what I considered to be lots of prodding - but not a lot of release of information.  He prodded you Galzria to vocalize your scum hunting strategy.  He prodded SFS into a multi page trainwreck, and then he woke up and prodded me.  He hasn't accused me - is just asking me to lay out my claims on who should be mafia - trying to get information out of me without providing any of his own, other than a mild suspicion - released 1 name at a time.  Why should I provide more?

I can't decide if this is legitimate scum hunting - or if this is mafia trying to rile up the town without having to get his feet wet with a vote.

He's far from the only one to be taking this approach - other vocal players have pulled the same thing: claiming to have "gathered information" without sharing what that information is.
 

Axxle, I'm still suspicious of how jumpy you are, but I was just fishing for responses from the other active members. I'm happy with what I got.

Suspicions: Axxle, slightly. None others atm.

I agree. Although I feel like I'm gaining useful information (and I don't always think that in Round 1).

Right now, I'm feeling some nervousness about DSell.  He's hanging around the middle post count wise, and his major contributions to date have been:

1. Jumping on pops for his terse play yesterday.
2. Railing on SFS - which reads like "picking on noob and hoping he cracks"  Maybe this is good play, but it seemed to go on a little further than was strictly necessary.

While I don't like pops' play, I'm putting him in the "O" camp for now... as in too crazy to get a meaningful read - so I saw DSell as just potentially trying to rile up the town.

Vote: DSell

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

SFS, I never accused you of deleting a post, I meant preview deletion.
SFS you down with a discussion QT?

Jothenoah is slightly scummy but not enough to get excited, for me at this point. 

Insomniac is still suspicious to me.  Grujah's voting is pretty scummy on paper.

VOLTGLOSS - I AM OK WITH A DISCUSSION THREAD, OR QT, OR WHATEVER THE PROPER TERMINOLOGY IS.

[Insomniac]

So I logged off of Dominion Strategy (except to update that we needed a replacement for M3) and this was at 12 pages. Its at 24. Having just now caught up I see no reason to unvote for pops. His posts are always terse, never quoting what he intends to, and still doesn't explain reasoning.

For now my vote will stay on pops.

[Galzria]

So I logged off of Dominion Strategy (except to update that we needed a replacement for M3) and this was at 12 pages. Its at 24. Having just now caught up I see no reason to unvote for pops. His posts are always terse, never quoting what he intends to, and still doesn't explain reasoning.

For now my vote will stay on pops.

I'm fine with that. 4 votes hardly concerns me for someone, and I pretty much agree with what you said. I'm just making sure I explore other options and don't hammer down on one player (especially given how quickly he hit 5 votes).

Would you mind providing your thoughts on Jotheonah? Either in relation to my post, or from your own perspective?

[jotheonah]

@CF

If we all explain every bit of our thought process, we're basically giving the mafia a tutorial on how not to arouse our suspicions. This is a lesson from MII, I think. Some aloofness actually IS pro-town. You're exactly right that I'm prodding. This is how I scumhunt. When I'm good and ready to put my "This is my vote for the day" vote down, it will be accompanied with a fairly detailed case and a plea for other votes to join mine. I am not there yet, and I may not get there today. Plenty of time.

[jotheonah]

Galz, I wonder how many games we have to play together before you accept that this is how I play town? Here's hoping it doesn't get you lynched this time.

[Insomniac]

Actually, I was just rereading, and there were a few things J said that stood out:

"I'm a Mafia!" Joke, which we all agreed was bad play, got our attention to wander.

"We, Townies" as pointed out, comes across as "I'm a townie, really I am!"

Post #424, he says we shouldn't be looking for Mafia in the vocal crowd, but among the pseudo-lurkers. He also got on SFS early, and kept pushing to see what he could get. This morning, when he logged on to find it sizzled out, he moved on to C.F.

Post #433, he states he believes there are no Mafia voting for Pops. If Pops were Mafia, and had 5 townies voting for him, why wouldn't J vote? If J believes Pops is town as well, he's just cleared SIX people. This seems VERY VERY off to me. Not only from a "how would he know" standpoint, but also a "let's all be friends! Hey guyz, look over here!" standpoint.

I'm still very hesitant about Pops, especially in light of J's post #433, but for now I'll join in saying VOTE: JOTHEONAH

Jotheonah never really stood out to me. He made some bad jokes at the beginning but I blame myself partially for talking about how I would be hesitant to vote right away for someone who said that. 24 Pages later I feel we have enough information that I don't hold that true anymore.

"We Townies" well everyone says that, I was very very guilty of that late in M2, and well I was telling the truth.

Post 424 is probably true to an extent, I mean with a mafia of size FOUR. They can probably afford to have one pseudo lurker. But I dont think they're all there and I don't think we need to waste our time there for day 1 as far as I'm concerned. Voting for SFS seems wierd he's not much of a psuedo lurker. I voted for SFS to draw him out cuz I had seen him reading this thread back when it was a reasonable thing to just read the entire thread . So this point raises a bit of concern for me but not that much.

I don't yet know what to make of 433. It seems like he might be hiding one or more of his partners there if he's mafia, or he could just be speaking honestly.

THIS POST

@CF

If we all explain every bit of our thought process, we're basically giving the mafia a tutorial on how not to arouse our suspicions. This is a lesson from MII, I think. Some aloofness actually IS pro-town. You're exactly right that I'm prodding. This is how I scumhunt. When I'm good and ready to put my "This is my vote for the day" vote down, it will be accompanied with a fairly detailed case and a plea for other votes to join mine. I am not there yet, and I may not get there today. Plenty of time.

THIS ONE bothers me. You've already put your vote down a million times.

I still suspect pops more, I mean we're 24 pages deep and he still hasn't given a good reason to suspect me, I don't find his posts at all helpful (see previous post). I hate to say it pops but if you have conviction in voting for me, give people a reason to vote for me.

[Galzria]

Galz, I wonder how many games we have to play together before you accept that this is how I play town? Here's hoping it doesn't get you lynched this time.

Empty threats mean nothing to me.

[Tables]

Tables did something smart in M-II: He made an excel sheet that he could keep short thoughts for each person on, with the respective post numbers to refer back to. Then you don't have to reread everything 1000 times later on.

...but you have to make an excel spreadsheet and take detailed notes on the postings of 15 players...

Actually, I use Google Docs. Can be accessed from anywhere and post game, it can be shared. But I digress.

Vote: Okay with quicktopic

Alright, I think I'm caught up for the day, although I only have about 10-15 minutes, so not enough time to post everything I want to say. Bleh.

Firstly: O and Galzria: Do you two realise your grandstanding wasted about half a day's discussion while we could have been having serious scumhunting? There were people trying to bring discussion back in line, but you two continued to defy them and waste time. I'm not suspicious, but I want you two (especially O) to start playing the game you signed up for.

With that out of the way, not much happened in the first 15 or so pages, which was seriously disappointing. Perhaps the most interesting thing was the Pops bandwagon, which seemed to build up worryingly quickly. My notes tell me O started it, Galzria joined soon after, then Grujah and then Axxle followed. O and Galzria... bleh. I don't want to comment on them. Axxle defended his stance well, Grujah... didn't. I'm not too sure what to make of this bandwagon yet, but when we have a little more information, it'll definitely be worth looking at.

Asides from that, the person who stuck out to me most was Jonah. Like Galzria in II, his posts have a distinct 'The mafia wants to do this but as town, X' feel to them - look at e.g. post 351 and his posts just before that to get an idea of it. Then when Grujah called him out on it in post 354, Jonah stopped doing it altogether after making a very tweed 'oh, well noticed, we need to spot things like that' post. The kind of post mafia makes when they've been caught in the act. Now, I was slightly bummed to get to page 23 and find other people were already voting Jonah, since it might look like I'm jumping on a bandwagon, but I've laid out evidence, and he's still my prime suspect. I'll post more later when I get the chance, but for now:

Vote: Jtotheonah

[jotheonah]

Actually, I was just rereading, and there were a few things J said that stood out:

"I'm a Mafia!" Joke, which we all agreed was bad play, got our attention to wander.

"We, Townies" as pointed out, comes across as "I'm a townie, really I am!"

Post #424, he says we shouldn't be looking for Mafia in the vocal crowd, but among the pseudo-lurkers. He also got on SFS early, and kept pushing to see what he could get. This morning, when he logged on to find it sizzled out, he moved on to C.F.

Post #433, he states he believes there are no Mafia voting for Pops. If Pops were Mafia, and had 5 townies voting for him, why wouldn't J vote? If J believes Pops is town as well, he's just cleared SIX people. This seems VERY VERY off to me. Not only from a "how would he know" standpoint, but also a "let's all be friends! Hey guyz, look over here!" standpoint.

I'm still very hesitant about Pops, especially in light of J's post #433, but for now I'll join in saying VOTE: JOTHEONAH

Jotheonah never really stood out to me. He made some bad jokes at the beginning but I blame myself partially for talking about how I would be hesitant to vote right away for someone who said that. 24 Pages later I feel we have enough information that I don't hold that true anymore.

"We Townies" well everyone says that, I was very very guilty of that late in M2, and well I was telling the truth.

Post 424 is probably true to an extent, I mean with a mafia of size FOUR. They can probably afford to have one pseudo lurker. But I dont think they're all there and I don't think we need to waste our time there for day 1 as far as I'm concerned. Voting for SFS seems wierd he's not much of a psuedo lurker. I voted for SFS to draw him out cuz I had seen him reading this thread back when it was a reasonable thing to just read the entire thread . So this point raises a bit of concern for me but not that much.

I don't yet know what to make of 433. It seems like he might be hiding one or more of his partners there if he's mafia, or he could just be speaking honestly.

THIS POST

@CF

If we all explain every bit of our thought process, we're basically giving the mafia a tutorial on how not to arouse our suspicions. This is a lesson from MII, I think. Some aloofness actually IS pro-town. You're exactly right that I'm prodding. This is how I scumhunt. When I'm good and ready to put my "This is my vote for the day" vote down, it will be accompanied with a fairly detailed case and a plea for other votes to join mine. I am not there yet, and I may not get there today. Plenty of time.

THIS ONE bothers me. You've already put your vote down a million times.

I still suspect pops more, I mean we're 24 pages deep and he still hasn't given a good reason to suspect me, I don't find his posts at all helpful (see previous post). I hate to say it pops but if you have conviction in voting for me, give people a reason to vote for me.

I've put down my vote exactly once.

[Captain_Frisk]

@CF

If we all explain every bit of our thought process, we're basically giving the mafia a tutorial on how not to arouse our suspicions. This is a lesson from MII, I think. Some aloofness actually IS pro-town. You're exactly right that I'm prodding. This is how I scumhunt. When I'm good and ready to put my "This is my vote for the day" vote down, it will be accompanied with a fairly detailed case and a plea for other votes to join mine. I am not there yet, and I may not get there today. Plenty of time.

By that argument - refusing to answer your question is also pro town.  I can see your point - but I don't see why you should be expecting everyone to lift up their skirts for you to peak underneath while you keep all of your clothes on. 

[jotheonah]

Tables did something smart in M-II: He made an excel sheet that he could keep short thoughts for each person on, with the respective post numbers to refer back to. Then you don't have to reread everything 1000 times later on.

...but you have to make an excel spreadsheet and take detailed notes on the postings of 15 players...

Actually, I use Google Docs. Can be accessed from anywhere and post game, it can be shared. But I digress.

Vote: Okay with quicktopic

Alright, I think I'm caught up for the day, although I only have about 10-15 minutes, so not enough time to post everything I want to say. Bleh.

Firstly: O and Galzria: Do you two realise your grandstanding wasted about half a day's discussion while we could have been having serious scumhunting? There were people trying to bring discussion back in line, but you two continued to defy them and waste time. I'm not suspicious, but I want you two (especially O) to start playing the game you signed up for.

With that out of the way, not much happened in the first 15 or so pages, which was seriously disappointing. Perhaps the most interesting thing was the Pops bandwagon, which seemed to build up worryingly quickly. My notes tell me O started it, Galzria joined soon after, then Grujah and then Axxle followed. O and Galzria... bleh. I don't want to comment on them. Axxle defended his stance well, Grujah... didn't. I'm not too sure what to make of this bandwagon yet, but when we have a little more information, it'll definitely be worth looking at.

Asides from that, the person who stuck out to me most was Jonah. Like Galzria in II, his posts have a distinct 'The mafia wants to do this but as town, X' feel to them - look at e.g. post 351 and his posts just before that to get an idea of it. Then when Grujah called him out on it in post 354, Jonah stopped doing it altogether after making a very tweed 'oh, well noticed, we need to spot things like that' post. The kind of post mafia makes when they've been caught in the act. Now, I was slightly bummed to get to page 23 and find other people were already voting Jonah, since it might look like I'm jumping on a bandwagon, but I've laid out evidence, and he's still my prime suspect. I'll post more later when I get the chance, but for now:

Vote: Jtotheonah

I'm a little confused by your reasoning? I wrote a "here's what we should be doing" post because Galz requested it specifically. And then I moved on to scumhunting because that's the next step in this game. What is it that I've "stopped doing entirely" and why have I supposedly stopped doing it?

[Tables]

Posting reasoning based on what the mafia/town wants to do. Just like that post says. And then Gurjah called out your posts often using 'we town' like phrases, and you stopped.

[jotheonah]

@CF

If we all explain every bit of our thought process, we're basically giving the mafia a tutorial on how not to arouse our suspicions. This is a lesson from MII, I think. Some aloofness actually IS pro-town. You're exactly right that I'm prodding. This is how I scumhunt. When I'm good and ready to put my "This is my vote for the day" vote down, it will be accompanied with a fairly detailed case and a plea for other votes to join mine. I am not there yet, and I may not get there today. Plenty of time.

By that argument - refusing to answer your question is also pro town.  I can see your point - but I don't see why you should be expecting everyone to lift up their skirts for you to peak underneath while you keep all of your clothes on.

Everyone has to decide for theirself the balance between what they reveal about their process and when. My decision has led to some fingers pointing my way. But it has also helped me to scumhunt. For a townie, that seems like a reasonable trade-off. However, I will point out that I have not yet refused to answer a question.

[jotheonah]

Posting reasoning based on what the mafia/town wants to do. Just like that post says. And then Gurjah called out your posts often using 'we town' like phrases, and you stopped.

Can you point to a place where I specifically avoided a "we town" construction? Cause I would say that I just haven't happened to use one since then.

[Galzria]

@ Tables:

Yes, there was some unnecessary banter in there, but I came out of the gates strong and on topic. O doesn't particularly care for my style of play because it goes against everything "natural" to him. I don't particularly like his style because I find it disruptive and unnecessary while being largely unhelpful. I think both of us were cooling it a bit after the semi,fallout in M-III. I don't find his play here nearly as bad, and I hope he doesn't think me quite as terrible either.

So yes, there was some "mood lightening" posts in there. I still think there was good information to be gained throughout it though, that IS relevant to scum hunting. Moreso, I really did laugh out loud from someone who had made... 5? 6? Posts calling me out for not scum hunting enough. Just hillarious. However, that has no impact on my suspicions towards you or anybody else. Just have me a chuckle is all.

[Captain_Frisk]

Posting reasoning based on what the mafia/town wants to do. Just like that post says. And then Gurjah called out your posts often using 'we town' like phrases, and you stopped.

Can you point to a place where I specifically avoided a "we town" construction? Cause I would say that I just haven't happened to use one since then.

Is using things like "We town" really informative?  It seems that town would be likely to use it naturally, and mafia would use it intentionally.  I take it as a going in assumption that everyone in the group has claimed town.

[Voltgloss]

All players have now voted in favor of a Discussion Quicktopic.  The topic has been created and any spectators (and deceased non-Mafia players) who wish to join should please PM me requesting the link.  Thanks.

I will update the opening post accordingly. 

[Robz888]

Robz: I find the degree to which you took a scumtell from SFS's first response following a break quite interesting. You mention the fluffiness of his post, which I can't really disagree with. Thing is, there have been loads of really quite fluffy posts made, especially by some of the newer players (myself and glooble's opening posts from yesterday come to mind, around #248), what made this one stand out? Granted, you're looking in a similar way at Theorel, but that didn't seem to garner as much attention as the SFS debate so I'll look more at that later.

Actually, Theorel stood out to me way more than SFS. Your fluff, and Glooble's, I may have simply overlooked. I don't know if that's true anymore. SFS has increased his rate of posting, and none of it what I was hoping for from a true townie.

[Grujah]

What bothers me about SFS is that he still didn't really post anything useful, suspecting anyone or giving any info whatsoever.

[theorel]

Reread all of 3 individuals' posts in the thread (Axxle, Grujah, and Insomniac).  After rereading, Grujah looks scummier than Axxle.  Insomniac looks pretty townie.  Which means pops looks scummier.  O and Galz are probably about even with Axxle in my mind.

Starting up a new wagon for jotheonah, eh?  hmm...I'll have to reread him, but at this point I think he's more likely town.  Especially because, isn't this the second time he's started accruing votes?  Or was it only suspicion prior?

So, Robz: any change in your opinion on me?

Nobody really has any comments on the Pops voters?  I know there have been some general dismissive votes, and a few claims of suspicion on Grujah, but I'd like to hear more from others, such as: Green Opal (not that you'll get to read this any time soon...) but you said something positive-seeming towards the idea that a scum is among the pops voters, before shifting to jotheonah.

P.S. Thanks to everyone who capitalizes Theorel, it looks so weird when I see my screen name uncapitalized.

[theorel]

oh, yeah...so, I obviously changed my mind, but forgot to change my vote.
Unvote
Vote: Grujah

[Galzria]

@Theorel:

I believe all 5 of us are fair game, as our votes did pile on quickly. If there is anything in particular you would like me to address, please ask, otherwise I don't wish to get into a debate about innocence, since everybody can and will argue from this position. Me saying "but I'm town!" Doesn't help - So direct me to help you! Otherwise I stand by my reasonings to date.

On the others:

Grujah - I didn't like him bandwagon'ing just for the sake of bandwagoning. But it's do blatantly anti-mafia to do so... I just don't know. His posts give some substance, but not much, and his self proclaimed impressionable nature is alarming. Watching, but nothing serious yet.

O - I admit, I don't know if I could tell Mafia O from Town O. It's good for him if he's Mafia, and probably bad for us if he's town, though not necessarily. It's certainly bad for ME, but I'm working on it.

Insomniac - He's appeared honest, but perhaps too much so. Reminds me of me in M-II. Not convinced of innocence, but at my own peril, leaning town.

Axxle - I've been here this game a few times. He was jumpy earlier about being called out, left, and when he came back, was much more mellow. Still suspect him, watching closely.

On Pops - Still strongly suspect, more than the others, for his very erratic, stubborn, unhelpful play. But I don't trust bandwagons, so am backing off for now.

On Jotheonah - I don't believe he ever had anything concrete against him in the past, but he was jumpy at suspicions of him early on. His response to me of "you came after me last time, and got yourself lynched. That worked out well for you didn't it?" Seems like a huge redirect and empty threat to put me off his case.

Anything else I can help you with?

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Robz: I find the degree to which you took a scumtell from SFS's first response following a break quite interesting. You mention the fluffiness of his post, which I can't really disagree with. Thing is, there have been loads of really quite fluffy posts made, especially by some of the newer players (myself and glooble's opening posts from yesterday come to mind, around #248), what made this one stand out? Granted, you're looking in a similar way at Theorel, but that didn't seem to garner as much attention as the SFS debate so I'll look more at that later.

Actually, Theorel stood out to me way more than SFS. Your fluff, and Glooble's, I may have simply overlooked. I don't know if that's true anymore. SFS has increased his rate of posting, and none of it what I was hoping for from a true townie.

(Emphasis mine)
Yet you pressed me much more than Theo, so this feels like deflection.
And your advice to me at one point was to not vote for people who irked me, but instead to vote for mafia.  Which could be deflection, under the guise of "there there now newbie, stay focused".  Then you told me that if I mentioned my newbie-ness again, you would vote for me, yet I've done so again (earlier this morning) and have done so again in this post, yet no follow-through on your "threat".  I read that as deflection/retreat, and also a good mafia tactic to slow down the post rate of an erratic townie learning the ropes.  (There I go again).  You are welcome to vote for me at any time.

I'll go on record now, I am beginning to suspect you.  My analysis is admittedly incomplete, and probably lacking, but it always will be in this game because of the amount of information.  I played poker professionally as well, and I trust my reads.

UNVOTE
VOTE: ROBZ888 (for the above reasons)  I would be happy to see a bandwagon develop here, to see where it leads us.