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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure  (Read 4259 times)

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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2023, 01:48:43 pm »
+7

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BryGuy

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2023, 02:04:40 pm »
0

Quote

Delicate Coin
$5* Treasure
$3
At Clean-up exchange this for a Crumbling Coin.
(Not in the Supply)


Crumbling Coin
$2* Treasure
$2
+1 Buy; If you bought more than two cards this turn, take Nice. At Clean-up return this to its pile. (Not in the Supply)


Nice
State
At the start of your turn, +1 Card. Return Nice.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2023, 02:20:13 pm by BryGuy »
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JW

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2023, 02:25:52 pm »
+1


Delicate Coin
$5* Treasure
$3
At Clean-up exchange this for a Crumbling Coin.
(Not in the Supply)


Crumbling Coin
$2* Treasure
$2
+1 Buy; If you bought more than two cards this turn, take Nice. At Clean-up return this to its pile. (Not in the Supply)

Which came first, the Delicate Coin or the Crumbling Coin? Neither is in the Supply! (I think it's Delicate Coin  ;D)
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2023, 03:05:27 pm »
+1


Looks like an inferior Treasure version of Bazaar.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2023, 03:15:49 pm »
+2


Looks like an inferior Treasure version of Bazaar.
Not always inferior. If your deck consists of terminal draw cards and either this or Bazaar, you'd generally rather have this. Because Bazaar has to be played before the terminal draw card, while this can be played afterwards, this results in more reliability for your deck with minimal downside.

If you have a lot of cantrips in your deck Bazaar is obviously better, but in a vacuum I'd rather have Smithies+Journals than Smithies+Bazaars
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2023, 03:34:32 pm »
+1


Looks like an inferior Treasure version of Bazaar.
Not always inferior. If your deck consists of terminal draw cards and either this or Bazaar, you'd generally rather have this. Because Bazaar has to be played before the terminal draw card, while this can be played afterwards, this results in more reliability for your deck with minimal downside.

If you have a lot of cantrips in your deck Bazaar is obviously better, but in a vacuum I'd rather have Smithies+Journals than Smithies+Bazaars
This is the old Ducat vs. Candlestickmaker discussion. While the strength difference is here not as huge due to the point you mentioned, namely the fact that this can play otherwise dead drawn Actions, this does not compensate for the numerous advantages that Actions have over Treasures: Throneable, part of interactions like Herald, Golem, Scrying Pool, Vassal, etc.

Plus there are subtleties like playing Village, drawing into Smithy, playing Smithy, having an Action left over to do stuff vs. ending your Action phase, playing Journal, drawing into Smithy, playing Smithy ... and that's it, even if you drew into Actions you cannot play them anymore.

That's why the notion that Journal somehow single-handedly (it is nice as a support card) increases engine consistency is dubious at best.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2023, 03:45:36 pm »
+3


Looks like an inferior Treasure version of Bazaar.
Not always inferior. If your deck consists of terminal draw cards and either this or Bazaar, you'd generally rather have this. Because Bazaar has to be played before the terminal draw card, while this can be played afterwards, this results in more reliability for your deck with minimal downside.

If you have a lot of cantrips in your deck Bazaar is obviously better, but in a vacuum I'd rather have Smithies+Journals than Smithies+Bazaars
This is the old Ducat vs. Candlestickmaker discussion. While the strength difference is here not as huge due to the point you mentioned, namely the fact that this can play otherwise dead drawn Actions, this does not compensate for the numerous advantages that Actions have over Treasures: Throneable, part of interactions like Herald, Golem, Scrying Pool, Vassal, etc.

Plus there are subtleties like playing Village, drawing into Smithy, playing Smithy, having an Action left over to do stuff vs. ending your Action phase, playing Journal, drawing into Smithy, playing Smithy ... and that's it, even if you drew into Actions you cannot play them anymore.

That's why the notion that Journal somehow single-handedly (it is nice as a support card) increases engine consistency is dubious at best.

Uh... you realize it's both a Treasure and an Action, right? Anything that synergizes with either synergizes with Journal.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2023, 06:14:01 pm »
0

Journal isn't really a Bazaar variant, it's a hybrid of Peddler and Venture. It's strictly better than peddler up to a reasonably small set of edge cases, which is fine for a $5, and not strictly better than Venture because you'd rather dig for a Treasure in your buy phase. So power level seems perfectly reasonable.

My problem with it is that I don't like drawing Action cards in the buy phase if you can't play them. Feels very frustrating. Venture solves this by looking for another Treasure, but this doesn't.

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2023, 06:50:40 pm »
0

Journal isn't really a Bazaar variant, it's a hybrid of Peddler and Venture. It's strictly better than peddler up to a reasonably small set of edge cases, which is fine for a $5, and not strictly better than Venture because you'd rather dig for a Treasure in your buy phase. So power level seems perfectly reasonable.

My problem with it is that I don't like drawing Action cards in the buy phase if you can't play them. Feels very frustrating. Venture solves this by looking for another Treasure, but this doesn't.

Well, Journal solves that problem by allowing you to play an Action card you have in hand, whether you drew it via Journal or not.
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2023, 10:44:51 pm »
+2

Journal isn't really a Bazaar variant, it's a hybrid of Peddler and Venture. It's strictly better than peddler up to a reasonably small set of edge cases, which is fine for a $5, and not strictly better than Venture because you'd rather dig for a Treasure in your buy phase. So power level seems perfectly reasonable.

My problem with it is that I don't like drawing Action cards in the buy phase if you can't play them. Feels very frustrating. Venture solves this by looking for another Treasure, but this doesn't.

Well, Journal solves that problem by allowing you to play an Action card you have in hand, whether you drew it via Journal or not.

Journal (imo) is a take on the "Peddler+ for $5" genre, which includes Market (+Buy), Bazaar (+Action), Artificer (discard for benefit), Skirmisher (conditional Attack), Baker (Coffers instead of $), and Highway (cost reduction instead of $). Journal's bonus is that it's both an Action and a Treasure, which provides a variety of benefits, the main one being that you can play it if you draw it terminally. The virtual Action means that you get the +Action even if you play it as a Treasure (although not fully--if you have 2 more Action cards to play, you can only play 1, even if one is non-terminal).
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BryGuy

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2023, 11:30:18 pm »
0


I was looking through old posts and found this.


My entry, for Explorer:
Quote
Tricorn - Treasure Heirloom, $2 cost.
$1
When you play this, you may play an Action from your hand.
Simple, gives Explorer the main benefit of Capitalism it misses out on and perhaps lets you draw a Province before playing it. It shouldn't make a centralising combo?

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2023, 03:44:07 am »
0

Journal isn't really a Bazaar variant, it's a hybrid of Peddler and Venture. It's strictly better than peddler up to a reasonably small set of edge cases, which is fine for a $5, and not strictly better than Venture because you'd rather dig for a Treasure in your buy phase. So power level seems perfectly reasonable.

My problem with it is that I don't like drawing Action cards in the buy phase if you can't play them. Feels very frustrating. Venture solves this by looking for another Treasure, but this doesn't.

Well, Journal solves that problem by allowing you to play an Action card you have in hand, whether you drew it via Journal or not.

right, but then that card is a Smithy, which you play to draw KC+KC+Hunting Grounds, and you're like aww  :(

emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2023, 01:21:00 pm »
+2

My Submission:



Quote
Pleasure Dome • $4 • Treasure
If you have no Action cards in play,
trash this to gain an Action card
costing as much as this or less.
Otherwise, +$4, then -$1 per Action
card you have in play.
                                                     


Quote from: Kubla Khan by Samuel Taylor Coleridge
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree:
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
   Down to a sunless sea.

My submission is Pleasure Dome. It cannot be enjoyed without someone there to use it, so it's trashed if you have no Action cards in play (but word of it may attract some pleasure seekers). Otherwise, it can provide substantial reward, but it's less valuable the more crowded it gets. When you play it with exactly one Action card in play, it's a (deeply discounted) Gold. From there, it gets weaker fast, and with any kind of engine it's nearly useless.

Originally I was going to have this give out the +$4 no matter what, but it seemed too easy to just grab Silver + PD, and easily hit $8 (with either 2xPD, or PD + 2xSilver, or PD + Silver + 2xCopper). It's still pretty strong with terminal draw (especially Smithy), although the risk of non-collision keeps it from being too busted (imo). It's even stronger with Hireling, although there you need to wait to at least gain (if not to play) the Hireling before you start buying PDs.
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SignError

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2023, 12:40:39 am »
+4



Quote
Atlas
$4 - Treasure - Victory

Reveal your hand.
+$1 per differently named Victory card revealed.
-
Worth 1VP per 2 differently named Treasures you have (round down).

Atlas is a Treasure - Victory card where the coin depends on Victory cards and the VP depends on Treasures.  The initial comparison is to Harem.  It’s fairly easy to get this to be worth 2VP, and in many games that will be the max.  While it’s possible for this to make $2 or more, most of the time it will be worth $1 or even nothing; and in that sense it’s comparable to gaining a Humble Castle.  But in kingdoms with many different Treasures (such as those involving Loot), or those with many different Victory cards (such as the Castles), this really has the opportunity to shine.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2023, 06:18:36 pm »
0

24 hours
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LTaco

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2023, 07:35:25 pm »
+5

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2023, 04:52:26 am »
+1



Quote
Papyrus roll - 4$
Treasure Duration
+1 Buy and +$1 per $1 it costs.

At the start of your next turn, exile a card in your hand or discard pile.

unsure if this is interesting, but this is what i got
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2023, 06:40:10 am »
+3



Quote
Papyrus roll - 4$
Treasure Duration
+1 Buy and +$1 per $1 it costs.

At the start of your next turn, exile a card in your hand or discard pile.

unsure if this is interesting, but this is what i got
It is not clear to me whether this is supposed to be "(+1 Buy and +$1) per $1 it costs" or "+1 Buy and (+$1 per $1 is costs)". It think the former option gives too much +Buy inflation. If you want the latter, I would rephrase:
Quote
At the start of your next turn: +1 Buy and exile a card in your hand or discard pile for +$1 per $1 it costs.
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Udzu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2023, 06:43:20 am »
+4



Update: tweaked punctuation [original]
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 12:51:08 pm by Udzu »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2023, 09:55:40 am »
+1



This is really neat!

Very minor formatting change: “choose one” cards, even those with only 2 choices like Specialist, use a semicolon to separate the choices.
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Udzu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2023, 12:47:34 pm »
+1



This is really neat!

Very minor formatting change: “choose one” cards, even those with only 2 choices like Specialist, use a semicolon to separate the choices.

Will fix, thanks! I originally had it as "Either ... or ..." but changed it to "Choose one:" at the last minute. I should also capitalise "discard".
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2023, 03:23:04 pm »
0



Quote
Papyrus roll - 4$
Treasure Duration
+1 Buy and +$1 per $1 it costs.

At the start of your next turn, exile a card in your hand or discard pile.

unsure if this is interesting, but this is what i got
It is not clear to me whether this is supposed to be "(+1 Buy and +$1) per $1 it costs" or "+1 Buy and (+$1 per $1 is costs)". It think the former option gives too much +Buy inflation. If you want the latter, I would rephrase:
Quote
At the start of your next turn: +1 Buy and exile a card in your hand or discard pile for +$1 per $1 it costs.

I would concur with this, and add that the word "Exile" is always capitalized, even when used as a verb in the middle of a sentence (see Stockpile, Sanctuary).

This also strikes me as being on the strong side. The Duration aspect is a significant nerf over something like Salvager. But, I think you'll be able to hit Estates pretty often in the early game (making it a decent starting-deck thinner). Where Papyrus Roll really shines is in the mid-game. If you play one on a turn where you know you aren't going to hit the shuffle, you can buy a Duchy (or Alt-VP) instead of what you would otherwise have bought, and at the start of the next turn, Exile the Duchy, and use the $5 and +Buy to buy what you would have otherwise bought (and you aren't harmed by the delay, because the useful card would have missed the shuffle anyway).

While it's not completely without a drawback (if you had $6, you're either missing out on a Gold, or borrowing against next turn's payload), it seems like something that will frequently hit with little to no cost, with the benefit being 3VP each time without adding a dead card to your deck. For a $4 non-terminal card, this seems pretty strong.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2023, 12:55:59 am »
+2

Contest closed! Check the OP to ensure I've got your entry and its latest iteration. I'll get results posted in the next day or two.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2023, 03:44:27 pm »
+6

WDC #178: Another Person's Treasure

Commentary & Results


Thanks everyone for the submissions! It was fun to see so many new Treasures, and I enjoyed all the different directions people went with these.

OPs are linked, shortlisted entries are bolded, enjoy!



Coppersmith by Augie279
A twist on an old favorite, Coppersmith indeed should have been a treasure. It's cool to see another Copper doubler, however doubling + mass trashing from play feels too centralizing (and removes Coppersmith's most unique feature, making you consider keeping Coppers around). At least Mint and Counterfeit create more interesting decisions, this is too much of an autobuy.

Jewelry Box by czzzz
A $4 Copper that can topdeck something from your discard pile and can be a Gold if you topdeck a green card. There were a lot of Copper+ treasures this week that conditionally give more money if you discard or topdeck something. My issue with this one is the classic Harbinger problem: in many decks, you often won't have a discard pile to trigger it, and it's just a sad $4 Copper. Making it from hand, or adding a from hand option would help immensely.

Patent by NoMoreFun
It's Treasure Summon without a cost restriction, but with the penalty of opponents getting to play your card before you do. It's a really interesting idea and thematically fun, but I worry the penalty here is just too steep and it will end up with a Contraband vibe, where the negative player interaction outweighs the benefit and players just avoid buying it. I wonder about trying a different penalty like making the card cost $1 less on other players turns or something similar.

Credit by xyz123
A cheap non-terminal Merchant Ship that's also a mini-Capital. I'm glad you updated to this version, the first was indeed too weak. The Duration element combines with Debt in a really neat way, by spreading the benefit over two turns--it really is a Loan you take out but must pay later. I actually think 4 Debt would work just fine, it's already a pretty steep penalty.

Nugget by X-tra
A Gold gainer with +Buy that leaps into play on gain, and plays the Gold (with a modest consulation prize if you play multiple that won't come up that often). At $6, even without the on-gain, this feels too strong. It's a Courtier that always does all four things, and it compares too favorably to other Gold gaining Treasures like Hoard and Treasure Trove, as well as Loots (e.g. Doubloons only gains a Gold once and doesn't give +Buy). With the on-gain, you instantly get $3 and a Buy back which feels wildly generous for an already very generous card. I'll admit, Gold gaining isn't as strong as most people think, and I still think the idea here is neat, but the card's balance could use some tweaking.

Homunculus by LordBaphomet
This is a cool one, a Treasure that can Chameleon two of your leftover Action cards for +$. Turn your dead drawn Smithies into Golds or your Peddlers into Silvers! The only thing I'm unsure of is the price. I could see $4 being a bit too cheap for the ability, though it's pretty board dependent so it's maybe okay? Playing just one Action might remedy this (and make the card simpler to resolve). Really creative!

Dollhouse/Chest of Expensive Clothes by LibraryAdventurer
A Treasure split pile, we had several of these this week. The top card is a Copper that can optionally sift and draw a card, and play itself again if you draw Curses. The bottom is like a bigger Cursed Gold. It's nice that the Chest's Curses make it easier for Dollhouses to trigger, but I feel like this pile has a bit too much going on for my taste. Dollhouse especially feels like it could be simpler.

Auror Gold/The Early Bird by majiponi
Another split pile, Auror Gold is a next-time Duration that plays sort of like Stockpile--a one-shot Gold plus that you can get back if you start your turn with a small hand. It's fun that it interacts nicely with handsize attacks. The Early Bird is a Silver that can be like a Festival (minus the buy) if you have it in your hand at the start of your turn (and also helps get back your Auror Golds). In games without other ways to reduce your starting handsize, I think Auror Golds are going to feel a little bit weak, but the game of getting them all back with Early Birds is fun. Early Bird could be worth trying out as its own pile too. 

Plow by Xen3k
A sifter that can play an Action or Treasure from your top four cards and rearrange or discard the remaining. Maybe I'm missing something, but why is this a choose one? If you choose the discard option, do you not get to reveal and play a card from the four? If this shouldn't be a choose one, I don't see much reason to limit discarding to only 2 cards. Playing an Action or Treasure from your top cards is kinda neat and has Treasure Hunter vibes, though I'll admit it maybe has just a little bit less utility as a Treasure vs. an Action.

Printing Press by Builder_Roberts
It's fun that Figurine has finally broken the Treasures don't have +Cards rule. This one feels similar, but with a push your luck element of how lucky do you feel that your + Cards will be worth more than the +$? I'd consider trying it without the Peddler option for simplicity. I worry a little that this may discourage buying other Actions since you can spam Printing Presses, but you do still need trashing and more payload to really make that work. Looks good.

Hand of Midas by silverspawn
A one-shot that instantly turns one of your played Actions into a Gold that you can immediately play. Compared with something like Improve, this one is non-terminal and gives +$3 and 2 Buys vs Improves +$2, but there's less flexibility since it's always a one-shot, always trashes one of your Actions, and only gains Golds. I think it could get away with not being a one-shot (and perhaps optionally trashing itself or an Action in play), still preserving a similar premise of upgrading itself (or your Actions) into Golds.

Plantation by Aquila
A simple +2 Coffers Treasure that let's you take the Tea Artifact if you have $3 unspent. Tea grants an optional Remodel from hand or discard every turn while you have it. One question, do you get to use Tea the same turn you take it? Hopefully that is the case, and it can work like Enhance (it even costs $3). It's like a deconstructed Butcher in a lot of ways, but with some added player interaction. I think Tea could lose the from discard option and still be plenty strong.

Ledger by faust
This is the best fixed Mandarin I've seen. DXV has said before that it could've cost $2, so it seems right that a Treasure version could cost $3. It's also kinda nice that it can just be a Copper if you want. Simple and far more useful than its terminal counterpart. Excellent entry.

Quill by JW
A Treasure Duration that plays an Action twice next turn, either one from your hand this turn or one from your hand next turn. It seems straightforward and having options is cool. It can't be played on itself which makes things much simpler. It feels like there's maybe a better wording but I can't think of what it would be. Nice one.

Journal by Gubump
An Action-Treasure that's a Peddler if played as an Action and a Bazaar if played as a Treasure. On some boards, you might just mostly just play this as an Action, which is a bit boring, but on boards where this is your only Village, things get a lot more interesting. Being able to dead draw this and another Action and play them both is super cool. As you mentioned, it's a Village that you don't have to play before your terminal, which we don't see very often in Dominion, and this is an elegant rendition of that idea.

Delicate Coin/Crumbling Coin by BryGuy
I'm assuming that Delicate Coin IS in the Supply, right? Otherwise, you can't get any of these! Delicate Coin is a $5 one-shot Gold that exchanges into a Crumbling Coin. Crumbling Coin is a a Silver with a Buy that rewards you with Nice if you buy two cards. The State is unnecessary and could easily be eliminated by making Delicate Coin a Duration for the next turn +Card and then return to the Supply. I don't have much else to say for these, they seem fine, if a little bit convoluted--Crumbling Coin could likely be its own pile for $5.

Pleasure Dome by emtzalex
A Treasure with a Poor House like bonus that scales down the more Actions you have in play. The self-trash into another Action feels a bit odd and unnecessary. At best, this is a Gold for $4 which isn't bad I guess, but I really don't like how much this hates Action cards. Outside of basic decks like Smithy-Money where you can get the exact one Action card you need in play, this just feels too niche otherwise and it's completely worthless in games where you want to build an engine. I think Poor House and Souk's way of generating payload is neat and worth experimenting with further but this implementation of it doesn't feel like it would be a pleasure to play with on most boards.

Atlas by SignError
Sort of a mini-Harem that counts differently named VP cards in hand for $ and counts differently named Treasures for VP. I like alt-VP cards but I worry this one is a little underwhelming on both fronts (especially compared to something like Humble Castle). The top is a Copper or worse much until the endgame, which feels pretty bad. Counting the number of VP cards instead of unique would help a little or just a simple flat +$.  The bottom will be worth 2VP in most games, but getting it to more than that is very board dependent.

Door Knocker by LTaco
Another simple Copper+, this time letting you discard a VP card for a sort of half-Baron. Early game, it's basically a Silver+Buy for $3 so long as you have an Estate around. I'd be curious to see if making the +Buy unconditional instead of the Copper (i.e. +1 Buy, discard a VP card for +$2) would make make it a little more interesting in the mid game and late game. I like it as is too though.

Papyrus Roll by fika monster
A Treasure Duration that can Exile for benefit on your next turn. I'm assuming the +Buy is separate from the +$ from the Exiled card's cost. It's an interesting idea for sure, and the inherent risk of a mandatory Exile from your next hand makes playing this always a bit of a gamble (the from discard option feels a little tacked on and I think makes the card less interesting). However, I agree that in a lot of cases there's usually something you won't mind Exiling, and the sheer amount of money this can generate will more than make up for it. I'd be curious about trying trash instead of Exile, which would make it a next turn Salvager (and maybe then you could keep the from discard), but then this gets less OP in the endgame when it can't freely Exile VP cards for boatloads of cash.

Purse by Udzu
A $2 Copper that also draws a card and can either sift a little or put something back on top. The discard option is Oasis, and the other option makes dead drawn Actions less sad. I like how simple it is, and it seems balanced at $2. My only complaint is that it's not terribly exciting. 



Honorable Mentions: Printing Press by Builder_Roberts, Door Knocker by LTaco, Quill by JW, Journal by Gubump

Runner Up: Ledger by faust

WINNER: Homunculus by LordBaphomet


Congrats to LordBaphomet and thanks everyone for participating!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 06:07:31 am by 4est »
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #178: Another Person's Treasure
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2023, 04:08:19 pm »
+1

One thing about these weekly contests is when the contest is first posted, I'm thinking "I don't have any ideas for that right now, so do I have an old card in my file that fits? Yes, I do, I'll submit that." Then, I get a better idea too late while reading the results at the end of the week...  :P
Does this happen to anyone else?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 04:17:18 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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