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Author Topic: 2022 Additional Errata  (Read 15414 times)

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Donald X.

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2022, 04:19:41 pm »
0

So if I'm not mistaken, Donate is not changed to fix the Cargo Ship problem, right?
Without thinking about it I don't know what you're talking about; so, not intentionally.

This:

It seems clearly preferable for e.g. Cargo Ship to be discarded in clean-up if there's no card set-aside, even if we can come up with a way to gain a card after that.

It is also seeming like, before Empires is reprinted next (and I don't know when that is and my most recent files are December 2020), I should look at, can I move Donate to e.g. when you buy it.
Ah. Well Empires hasn't been reprinted yet, so I still have time.

We looked at moving Donate to when-buy; just-before-drawing was better; and Cargo Ship vanished into the mists of the conversation. Possibly there is still a better wording that times it at when-buy. I'll have to go look at the discussions; for sure there were wordings timed then that were passed over for reasons of some sort.
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Donald X.

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2022, 04:37:33 pm »
+4

We looked at moving Donate to when-buy; just-before-drawing was better; and Cargo Ship vanished into the mists of the conversation. Possibly there is still a better wording that times it at when-buy. I'll have to go look at the discussions; for sure there were wordings timed then that were passed over for reasons of some sort.
Okay what we most strongly considered was: "Put your deck into your discard pile. Trash any number of cards from: your discard pile, your hand, and your Coppers in play."

This has issues! It needs once-per-turn or you can get loops with it. It's more functionally different, e.g. you can't trash a Cursed Gold you played (the cards aren't in your hand because then you e.g. buy Villa and just used Donate as draw).

The Cargo Ship thing is a real issue; I'm not just dismissing it. Donate lets anything in Dominion happen after discarding in Clean-up; of course that's problematic, why haven't I fixed that yet, man.

So this is the version to think about.

Donate: Event, 8D
Once per turn: Put your deck into your discard pile. Trash any number of cards from: your discard pile, your hand, and your Coppers in play.
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Jeebus

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2022, 07:00:57 pm »
+2

One idea: Original (or current) Donate, but "put any number of cards in the trash" instead of "trash any number of cards". Same difference as with putting cards into your discard pile vs. discarding them. Then nothing can trigger, I think.

ems57fcva

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2022, 10:48:13 pm »
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"Non duration" is a nerf so I would have preferred a bit of variety. So for example:
  • Counterfeit could play any Treasure twice, but only trash it if it isn't a Duration
  • Crypt, instead of setting aside Treasures immediately, could let you optionally set aside Treasures as you discard them from play
I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

For Crypt, I think your suggestion is the right way to go:  Trashing or moving a Duration which is still doing something (or trying to) is problematic, but once that Duration is ready to be discarded from play it should be available for cards like Crypt.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2022, 10:50:05 pm by ems57fcva »
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Jeebus

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2022, 04:24:00 am »
0

I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

Throne Rooms already work that way, and Counterfeit is indeed a Throne Room. The card text would have to be changed to specifically address Durations though, somehow saying that the trashing happens after any future effects. Sounds messy. The only alternative I can think of is "the next time you discard that Treasure from play, trash it." Not exactly better than the current fix.

grrgrrgrr

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2022, 04:52:44 am »
0

We looked at moving Donate to when-buy; just-before-drawing was better; and Cargo Ship vanished into the mists of the conversation. Possibly there is still a better wording that times it at when-buy. I'll have to go look at the discussions; for sure there were wordings timed then that were passed over for reasons of some sort.
Okay what we most strongly considered was: "Put your deck into your discard pile. Trash any number of cards from: your discard pile, your hand, and your Coppers in play."

This has issues! It needs once-per-turn or you can get loops with it. It's more functionally different, e.g. you can't trash a Cursed Gold you played (the cards aren't in your hand because then you e.g. buy Villa and just used Donate as draw).

The Cargo Ship thing is a real issue; I'm not just dismissing it. Donate lets anything in Dominion happen after discarding in Clean-up; of course that's problematic, why haven't I fixed that yet, man.

So this is the version to think about.

Donate: Event, 8D
Once per turn: Put your deck into your discard pile. Trash any number of cards from: your discard pile, your hand, and your Coppers in play.

I think I can speak on behalf of a sizeable portion of the userbase when I say that it's good that you didn't go for this change. And honestly, it seems like the problem lies with Cargo Ship, namely that events in the cleanup can change whether CS needs to be discarded from play. This can be changed by adding the words "before Cleanup" in Cargo Ship's wording. Sure, it looses interaction with Improve, which is of course not ideal as they are in the same set but not terrible either.

EDIT: I actually think this is a really interesting change, but I don't see why you couldn't say "non-Duration cards you have in play", especially with the once-per-turn clause (and even without the restriction, 8D would make it a lot harder to create a loop). Yeah, now I think of it, I really start digging for this proposed version.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2022, 07:39:22 am by grrgrrgrr »
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spineflu

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2022, 09:00:31 am »
0

Have Renaissance and Guilds been reprinted yet with the Merchant Guild, Patron and Coffers errata from earlier this year? I'm wondering if there's a printed version of these two sets with only those changes and without the newly changed Exploration, Innovation and overpay.
No, the first thing to get reprinted with the recent errata (not counting the 2E's) is Adventures. I don't know if it actually has been printed or not, but the files went to the printer months ago. Those other sets, the files have not gone to the printer.

this ties into a question that didn't get answered in the thread dz posted that linked to the shuffle.it forum's version of the errata, but on overpay cards, are they losing the little plus next to the cost?

Donald X.

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2022, 01:37:50 pm »
0

One idea: Original (or current) Donate, but "put any number of cards in the trash" instead of "trash any number of cards". Same difference as with putting cards into your discard pile vs. discarding them. Then nothing can trigger, I think.
We considered "it's not really trashing" but it's just so awful, is the problem. So awful.
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Donald X.

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2022, 01:43:10 pm »
+2

I think I can speak on behalf of a sizeable portion of the userbase when I say that it's good that you didn't go for this change. And honestly, it seems like the problem lies with Cargo Ship, namely that events in the cleanup can change whether CS needs to be discarded from play. This can be changed by adding the words "before Cleanup" in Cargo Ship's wording. Sure, it looses interaction with Improve, which is of course not ideal as they are in the same set but not terrible either.

EDIT: I actually think this is a really interesting change, but I don't see why you couldn't say "non-Duration cards you have in play", especially with the once-per-turn clause (and even without the restriction, 8D would make it a lot harder to create a loop). Yeah, now I think of it, I really start digging for this proposed version.
I am pretty sure the problem is with Donate, not Cargo Ship. Cards should be able to expect that nothing more of interest is happening in the turn once Clean-up hits. Duration cards by default demand this - they have to know if they're done. I guess we can argue, that the problem is Duration cards period; that they should have e.g. always stayed out one turn (with some cards then not getting made). But given that they get to care "are we done," and that the point we check is in Clean-up, well it shouldn't be that stuff can happen after that that makes a difference. Anything I'm willing to allow after discarding cards from play should also not be something that cards trigger off of.

For tracking, "non-duration" never actually goes the distance, since you can trash a Throne Room that played a Duration card. For loops, once-per-turn is obv. all you need, yes.
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Donald X.

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2022, 01:43:52 pm »
+2

Have Renaissance and Guilds been reprinted yet with the Merchant Guild, Patron and Coffers errata from earlier this year? I'm wondering if there's a printed version of these two sets with only those changes and without the newly changed Exploration, Innovation and overpay.
No, the first thing to get reprinted with the recent errata (not counting the 2E's) is Adventures. I don't know if it actually has been printed or not, but the files went to the printer months ago. Those other sets, the files have not gone to the printer.

this ties into a question that didn't get answered in the thread dz posted that linked to the shuffle.it forum's version of the errata, but on overpay cards, are they losing the little plus next to the cost?
No, cards are not losing the little + or the little *; the dominion.games version has simply never had those.
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humcalc216

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #85 on: July 02, 2022, 02:46:20 pm »
0

I guess we can argue, that the problem is Duration cards period; that they should have e.g. always stayed out one turn (with some cards then not getting made). But given that they get to care "are we done," and that the point we check is in Clean-up, well it shouldn't be that stuff can happen after that that makes a difference. Anything I'm willing to allow after discarding cards from play should also not be something that cards trigger off of.

For tracking, "non-duration" never actually goes the distance, since you can trash a Throne Room that played a Duration card. For loops, once-per-turn is obv. all you need, yes.

Why not have a rule that says something like, "If an effect would remove a Duration or a card tracking a Duration (such as a Throne or Command) from play before it's 'done,' that effect fails."? Obviously, there are edge cases, like Cargo Ship and Highwayman (which has an effect that discards itself).
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dz

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #86 on: July 02, 2022, 03:16:01 pm »
0

Once we get something that triggers when you put a card on top of your deck, we're in trouble.

That new Donate sounds sweet. I didn't think "Donate when you buy it" could work, but that wording nails it. And I am 100% against adding non-Duration to Donate, there's nothing wrong with current Bonfire.

Cargo Ship does have the problem of creating an "invisible" effect if you Improve it. Of the tracking issues in the game, that one isn't the worst though, since you still have the gained card set aside.

Why not have a rule that says something like, "If an effect would remove a Duration or a card tracking a Duration (such as a Throne or Command) from play before it's 'done,' that effect fails."? Obviously, there are edge cases, like Cargo Ship and Highwayman (which has an effect that discards itself).

This change has been suggested before, and it'd be ideal if that rule always existed. It also doesn't require any errata to Counterfeit etc because the rulebook handles it. Nowadays it's probably not happening.
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J Reggie

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2022, 11:34:56 pm »
+3

I'm really fascinated by the ruling about cards referring to their pile instead of the supply. I'm wondering if it's paving the way for a mechanic involving kingdom card piles that aren't in the supply. Kind of like how Guilds got the Coffers change just before Renaissance came out.

grrgrrgrr

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2022, 06:22:42 am »
+1

I am pretty sure the problem is with Donate, not Cargo Ship. Cards should be able to expect that nothing more of interest is happening in the turn once Clean-up hits. Duration cards by default demand this - they have to know if they're done. I guess we can argue, that the problem is Duration cards period; that they should have e.g. always stayed out one turn (with some cards then not getting made). But given that they get to care "are we done," and that the point we check is in Clean-up, well it shouldn't be that stuff can happen after that that makes a difference. Anything I'm willing to allow after discarding cards from play should also not be something that cards trigger off of.

For tracking, "non-duration" never actually goes the distance, since you can trash a Throne Room that played a Duration card. For loops, once-per-turn is obv. all you need, yes.

That makes a lot of sense. But if the Clean-up should be devoid of potential triggers, isn't Improve problematic as well (as they also "gain" something)? Or does Improve get a pass because it triggers at the start of Cleanup? In that case, what about the following Donate errata?

Quote
Donate (Event, 8D)
At the start of Clean-up, put your deck onto your discard pile. Then trash any number of cards from: your hand, you discard pile and cards you would discard from play.

And aren't Travelers under scrutiny as well? Or even Scheme/Herbalist/Way of the Frog?

About the last paragraph, has your team been thinking on whether this whole "TR stays aside to track Durations" stuff is still the way to go? I've been thinking about an other solution lately, namely to introduce Replay tokens. Every time you replay a card, you put a Replay token onto it. These tokens are purely for secretary purposes, and can be removed if one of the replays have no more unresolved effect (such as with Barge). TR itself will always be discarded from play on the turn it has been played.
This has some pitfalls, as these tokens have to be introduced somewhere and it also makes KC+Wharf even more ridiculous, but it eases up a lot of things. And it makes Citadel trackable.
Of course, your last paragraph would still apply because of Command cards that can mimic Durations.

Sorry if I'm suggesting a bit much lately; I just like to think about this kind of stuff. I'm still very impressed with how much you have done recently and I cannot wait to see what you have in store this fall!
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Jeebus

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2022, 09:24:53 am »
+1

One idea: Original (or current) Donate, but "put any number of cards in the trash" instead of "trash any number of cards". Same difference as with putting cards into your discard pile vs. discarding them. Then nothing can trigger, I think.
We considered "it's not really trashing" but it's just so awful, is the problem. So awful.

I then can't help but wonder what makes it okay for discarding on Chancellor etc?

Donald X.

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2022, 12:07:54 pm »
0

One idea: Original (or current) Donate, but "put any number of cards in the trash" instead of "trash any number of cards". Same difference as with putting cards into your discard pile vs. discarding them. Then nothing can trigger, I think.
We considered "it's not really trashing" but it's just so awful, is the problem. So awful.

I then can't help but wonder what makes it okay for discarding on Chancellor etc?
That's bad too, I don't deny it.
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Donald X.

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2022, 12:14:55 pm »
+2

That makes a lot of sense. But if the Clean-up should be devoid of potential triggers, isn't Improve problematic as well (as they also "gain" something)? Or does Improve get a pass because it triggers at the start of Cleanup? In that case, what about the following Donate errata?

Quote
Donate (Event, 8D)
At the start of Clean-up, put your deck onto your discard pile. Then trash any number of cards from: your hand, you discard pile and cards you would discard from play.
Yes Improve is fine because it's before you discard anything. It's discarding stuff from play that means we have to be done doing other things.

Doing Improve's trick lets Donate preserve a little more functionality; I'm not sure it's worth it. It's tricky to be very clear that we're giving you the option to trash a subset of the cards you'd discard from play, and not requiring you to trash all of them.

Donate: Event, 8D
Once per turn: Put your deck into your discard pile. Trash any number of cards from among: your discard pile; your hand; and the cards you'd discard from play this turn.

But even if it's clear, Bonfire's approach is so much simpler. And you can still trash everything. You just don't get to play that Cursed Gold.
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Donald X.

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2022, 12:22:17 pm »
+2

Why not have a rule that says something like, "If an effect would remove a Duration or a card tracking a Duration (such as a Throne or Command) from play before it's 'done,' that effect fails."? Obviously, there are edge cases, like Cargo Ship and Highwayman (which has an effect that discards itself).
In the alternate reality where I shake things up more,  Thrones would have a type that cards could refer to. That would be useful other ways too. I don't know if I'd want Durations to survive things that trash cards, rather than just not letting you use them in those situations. It's all work to not put in now though.

This kind of change seems really hard for people to learn, until it's everywhere. If you buy a copy of Adventures and Port says "when gain" on it, well that's what it says, no problem. If the Duration rules say "oops Duration rules are different now," well it's so likely that you never even see that; why are you reading those rules, you know about Durations already. And then not putting non-Duration somewhere means you will think it works with Durations.

I changed Duration rules at one point; Thrones used to stay out if you e.g. Throned a Throne on a Duration; now only the card playing the Duration stays out. This is simpler to explain. And I mean, if you never got the memo, it's not so bad.

Anyway, I could have done Durations better (and Reactions); changing that feels beyond the scope at this point.
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ems57fcva

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2022, 04:14:16 pm »
0

I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

Throne Rooms already work that way, and Counterfeit is indeed a Throne Room. The card text would have to be changed to specifically address Durations though, somehow saying that the trashing happens after any future effects. Sounds messy. The only alternative I can think of is "the next time you discard that Treasure from play, trash it." Not exactly better than the current fix.
You have missed my point.  Counterfeit reads "... you may play a Treasure from your hand twice.  If you do, trash that Treasure".  So what is it to play a card?  Is it putting it into play and resolving it for that turn?  Or is it fulfilling all of the instructions on the card (which requires multiple turns for Durations)? 

It appears that the first interpretation is being used for Durations, which means that a Treasure-Duration is to be trashed during the Buy phase of the turn that it is put into play.  The loss of the card before its Duration effect is done is what is causing problems.

What I am calling for is to change the interpretation of playing a Duration to saying that the playing of the Duration is not done until all of its instructions are completed.  No change to the wording of Counterfeit is needed in this case.  Instead, if you have used Counterfeit on an Astrolabe, you get $2 and +2 Buy now, $2 and +2 Buy at the start of the next turn, and then (as part of the start of the next turn) trash the Astrolabe.  (I would wait until the Buy phase of the following turn to do the actual trashing for tracking purposes.  This also leads me to wonder if a Treasure-Duration should read "now and at the start of the Buy phase of your next turn".)  As with Throne Room, the Counterfeit would stay in play to track the Duration being played twice and to also track the fact that the card is to be trashed once it has become fully played.

This change would also help with Procession (as it was originally worded).  The trashing of the Duration and the obtaining of a more valuable card would wait until the Duration was fully played.
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ems57fcva

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2022, 05:04:41 pm »
0

Not a fan of annihilating of when-buy triggers. Learning the difference between gain an buy is not difficult and it seems like the new rules and wordings are awkward and weird.
The difference is subtle, with the big issue being to remember that buying comes before gaining.  I play with a girlfiriend who is often caught off-guard by distinctions like that.

I for one wonder if "when you buy this" is not going to eventually return as a short way of saying "when you gain this, if you bought it".  I see treating buying as a form of gaining (being done in exchange for coin) as the upshot of this.  But that is different than the way that DXV currently sees the relationship between buying and gaining.
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Jeebus

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2022, 06:53:51 am »
+2

I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

Throne Rooms already work that way, and Counterfeit is indeed a Throne Room. The card text would have to be changed to specifically address Durations though, somehow saying that the trashing happens after any future effects. Sounds messy. The only alternative I can think of is "the next time you discard that Treasure from play, trash it." Not exactly better than the current fix.
You have missed my point.  Counterfeit reads "... you may play a Treasure from your hand twice.  If you do, trash that Treasure".  So what is it to play a card?  Is it putting it into play and resolving it for that turn?  Or is it fulfilling all of the instructions on the card (which requires multiple turns for Durations)? 

It appears that the first interpretation is being used for Durations, which means that a Treasure-Duration is to be trashed during the Buy phase of the turn that it is put into play.  The loss of the card before its Duration effect is done is what is causing problems.

What I am calling for is to change the interpretation of playing a Duration to saying that the playing of the Duration is not done until all of its instructions are completed.  No change to the wording of Counterfeit is needed in this case.  Instead, if you have used Counterfeit on an Astrolabe, you get $2 and +2 Buy now, $2 and +2 Buy at the start of the next turn, and then (as part of the start of the next turn) trash the Astrolabe.  (I would wait until the Buy phase of the following turn to do the actual trashing for tracking purposes.  This also leads me to wonder if a Treasure-Duration should read "now and at the start of the Buy phase of your next turn".)  As with Throne Room, the Counterfeit would stay in play to track the Duration being played twice and to also track the fact that the card is to be trashed once it has become fully played.

This change would also help with Procession (as it was originally worded).  The trashing of the Duration and the obtaining of a more valuable card would wait until the Duration was fully played.

There are several problems with this suggestion.

We resolve an ability by following each instruction in order from top to bottom. Some instructions tell us to do something later; these set up future effects. Your suggestion entails stopping after such an instruction and not continuing resolving the ability until all the future effects are resolved. Throne Room has two instructions: Play a an Action card from your hand, and play it again. (These are two separate effects that happen after each other.)

Let's take a non-Duration card, Merchant. If we Throne Room Merchant, we play it once, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and setting up a future effect when Silver is played for the first time later. But that future effect hasn't happened yet, so we are not done playing Merchant. That means we don't continue to the next instruction on Throne Room yet. When we play a Silver, Merchant is done, so now we play it again, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and failing to set up a future effect (since the first Silver has already been played). Obviously this is not how Merchant should work.

Maybe your idea was that this would be a special rule for Durations, but the problem is the same. If we Counterfeit Astrolabe, we only play Astrolabe once this turn, because we're not done playing it the first time until the start of our next turn. At that point, after getting +$1 and +1 Buy for the next-turn effect, we play it again, getting +$1 and +1 Buy and setting up an effect for next turn, making Counterfeit and Astrolabe stay in play one turn more. At the beginning of that turn, after getting the next-turn effect again, we trash the Astrolabe.

What if we play Conclave on Wharf? Since Wharf is not done being played until the beginning of next turn, that's when we get the +1 Action from Conclave. But Conclave doesn't even stay in play to remind us of this.

ems57fcva

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2022, 01:22:33 pm »
0

I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

Throne Rooms already work that way, and Counterfeit is indeed a Throne Room. The card text would have to be changed to specifically address Durations though, somehow saying that the trashing happens after any future effects. Sounds messy. The only alternative I can think of is "the next time you discard that Treasure from play, trash it." Not exactly better than the current fix.
You have missed my point.  Counterfeit reads "... you may play a Treasure from your hand twice.  If you do, trash that Treasure".  So what is it to play a card?  Is it putting it into play and resolving it for that turn?  Or is it fulfilling all of the instructions on the card (which requires multiple turns for Durations)? 

It appears that the first interpretation is being used for Durations, which means that a Treasure-Duration is to be trashed during the Buy phase of the turn that it is put into play.  The loss of the card before its Duration effect is done is what is causing problems.

What I am calling for is to change the interpretation of playing a Duration to saying that the playing of the Duration is not done until all of its instructions are completed.  No change to the wording of Counterfeit is needed in this case.  Instead, if you have used Counterfeit on an Astrolabe, you get $2 and +2 Buy now, $2 and +2 Buy at the start of the next turn, and then (as part of the start of the next turn) trash the Astrolabe.  (I would wait until the Buy phase of the following turn to do the actual trashing for tracking purposes.  This also leads me to wonder if a Treasure-Duration should read "now and at the start of the Buy phase of your next turn".)  As with Throne Room, the Counterfeit would stay in play to track the Duration being played twice and to also track the fact that the card is to be trashed once it has become fully played.

This change would also help with Procession (as it was originally worded).  The trashing of the Duration and the obtaining of a more valuable card would wait until the Duration was fully played.

There are several problems with this suggestion.

We resolve an ability by following each instruction in order from top to bottom. Some instructions tell us to do something later; these set up future effects. Your suggestion entails stopping after such an instruction and not continuing resolving the ability until all the future effects are resolved. Throne Room has two instructions: Play a an Action card from your hand, and play it again. (These are two separate effects that happen after each other.)

Let's take a non-Duration card, Merchant. If we Throne Room Merchant, we play it once, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and setting up a future effect when Silver is played for the first time later. But that future effect hasn't happened yet, so we are not done playing Merchant. That means we don't continue to the next instruction on Throne Room yet. When we play a Silver, Merchant is done, so now we play it again, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and failing to set up a future effect (since the first Silver has already been played). Obviously this is not how Merchant should work.

Maybe your idea was that this would be a special rule for Durations, but the problem is the same. If we Counterfeit Astrolabe, we only play Astrolabe once this turn, because we're not done playing it the first time until the start of our next turn. At that point, after getting +$1 and +1 Buy for the next-turn effect, we play it again, getting +$1 and +1 Buy and setting up an effect for next turn, making Counterfeit and Astrolabe stay in play one turn more. At the beginning of that turn, after getting the next-turn effect again, we trash the Astrolabe.

What if we play Conclave on Wharf? Since Wharf is not done being played until the beginning of next turn, that's when we get the +1 Action from Conclave. But Conclave doesn't even stay in play to remind us of this.
The idea that the Duration effects in the next turn are a "future effect" is interesting.  And that is the heart of the issue:  Whether the playing of a Duration from your hand ends in the current turn or a future turn.  I am proposing that a Duration be looked upon as a card that is resolved multiple times but is only played once.  Resolving a card after setting up a future effect that happens in that turn is fine.  But if Merchant gave the play-a-Silver bonus in the next turn, it would then be a Duration with an effect that would need to be resolved in the next turn (if only by being set up at the start of that turn).  Then my suggestion would kick in.

As for Conclave:  I believe that Conclave does stay in play if a Duration is played by it (as opposed to by the Action it gives).  That my suggestion would defer the awarding of the +1 action until a future turn is an interesting side effect.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2022, 03:12:44 pm »
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Conclave doesn't stay in play if a Duration is played by it, no. Cards only stay in play with the Durations they played if either (a) they replayed them (using the keyword "replay") or (b) they played them more than once.
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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #98 on: July 05, 2022, 02:18:33 am »
+1

The idea that the Duration effects in the next turn are a "future effect" is interesting.  And that is the heart of the issue:  Whether the playing of a Duration from your hand ends in the current turn or a future turn.  I am proposing that a Duration be looked upon as a card that is resolved multiple times but is only played once.  Resolving a card after setting up a future effect that happens in that turn is fine.  But if Merchant gave the play-a-Silver bonus in the next turn, it would then be a Duration with an effect that would need to be resolved in the next turn (if only by being set up at the start of that turn).  Then my suggestion would kick in.

As for Conclave:  I believe that Conclave does stay in play if a Duration is played by it (as opposed to by the Action it gives).  That my suggestion would defer the awarding of the +1 action until a future turn is an interesting side effect.

1) I guess you missed the other side effect, that Throne Room + Duration would defer the second play until next turn and make the Duration stay in play one extra turn.
2) Conclave, Herald, Golem, Vassal, Elder, etc. do not stay in play when playing a Duration.
3) Having the definition of resolving a card be different for Durations and non-Durations is just a horrible idea.

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #99 on: July 05, 2022, 02:28:49 am »
+1

I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

Throne Rooms already work that way, and Counterfeit is indeed a Throne Room. The card text would have to be changed to specifically address Durations though, somehow saying that the trashing happens after any future effects. Sounds messy. The only alternative I can think of is "the next time you discard that Treasure from play, trash it." Not exactly better than the current fix.
You have missed my point.  Counterfeit reads "... you may play a Treasure from your hand twice.  If you do, trash that Treasure".  So what is it to play a card?  Is it putting it into play and resolving it for that turn?  Or is it fulfilling all of the instructions on the card (which requires multiple turns for Durations)? 

It appears that the first interpretation is being used for Durations, which means that a Treasure-Duration is to be trashed during the Buy phase of the turn that it is put into play.  The loss of the card before its Duration effect is done is what is causing problems.

What I am calling for is to change the interpretation of playing a Duration to saying that the playing of the Duration is not done until all of its instructions are completed.  No change to the wording of Counterfeit is needed in this case.  Instead, if you have used Counterfeit on an Astrolabe, you get $2 and +2 Buy now, $2 and +2 Buy at the start of the next turn, and then (as part of the start of the next turn) trash the Astrolabe.  (I would wait until the Buy phase of the following turn to do the actual trashing for tracking purposes.  This also leads me to wonder if a Treasure-Duration should read "now and at the start of the Buy phase of your next turn".)  As with Throne Room, the Counterfeit would stay in play to track the Duration being played twice and to also track the fact that the card is to be trashed once it has become fully played.

This change would also help with Procession (as it was originally worded).  The trashing of the Duration and the obtaining of a more valuable card would wait until the Duration was fully played.

There are several problems with this suggestion.

We resolve an ability by following each instruction in order from top to bottom. Some instructions tell us to do something later; these set up future effects. Your suggestion entails stopping after such an instruction and not continuing resolving the ability until all the future effects are resolved. Throne Room has two instructions: Play a an Action card from your hand, and play it again. (These are two separate effects that happen after each other.)

Let's take a non-Duration card, Merchant. If we Throne Room Merchant, we play it once, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and setting up a future effect when Silver is played for the first time later. But that future effect hasn't happened yet, so we are not done playing Merchant. That means we don't continue to the next instruction on Throne Room yet. When we play a Silver, Merchant is done, so now we play it again, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and failing to set up a future effect (since the first Silver has already been played). Obviously this is not how Merchant should work.

Maybe your idea was that this would be a special rule for Durations, but the problem is the same. If we Counterfeit Astrolabe, we only play Astrolabe once this turn, because we're not done playing it the first time until the start of our next turn. At that point, after getting +$1 and +1 Buy for the next-turn effect, we play it again, getting +$1 and +1 Buy and setting up an effect for next turn, making Counterfeit and Astrolabe stay in play one turn more. At the beginning of that turn, after getting the next-turn effect again, we trash the Astrolabe.

What if we play Conclave on Wharf? Since Wharf is not done being played until the beginning of next turn, that's when we get the +1 Action from Conclave. But Conclave doesn't even stay in play to remind us of this.
The idea that the Duration effects in the next turn are a "future effect" is interesting.  And that is the heart of the issue:  Whether the playing of a Duration from your hand ends in the current turn or a future turn.  I am proposing that a Duration be looked upon as a card that is resolved multiple times but is only played once.  Resolving a card after setting up a future effect that happens in that turn is fine.  But if Merchant gave the play-a-Silver bonus in the next turn, it would then be a Duration with an effect that would need to be resolved in the next turn (if only by being set up at the start of that turn).  Then my suggestion would kick in.

As for Conclave:  I believe that Conclave does stay in play if a Duration is played by it (as opposed to by the Action it gives).  That my suggestion would defer the awarding of the +1 action until a future turn is an interesting side effect.

I think you miss something import with actions in general. Effects can be decided into two categories: current effects and future effects. Current effects are effects you get immediately when playing the card. Future effects are effects that happen when a condition is fulfilled or when you enter a phase. When you are done playing a card, you have resolved the current effects, not (necessarily) the future ones.

From this regard, Durations aren't (nor should they be) different from ordinary cards. They just happen to have future effects that happen during a later turn. And the only difference they have is that they stay aside, because cards shouldn't be discarded from play before their future effects are resolved.

When you trash a card from play with Procession or Counterfeit, the current effects have been resolved (twice). Future effects haven't; and you need to remember the presence of those. 
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