Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 5 [All]

Author Topic: 2022 Additional Errata  (Read 14315 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

kieranmillar

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 152
  • Shuffle iT Username: kieranmillar
  • Respect: +355
    • View Profile
2022 Additional Errata
« on: June 25, 2022, 08:30:56 am »
+8

This has been posted everywhere else now so cross-posting it to here too: http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=5616.0

34 more cards/landscapes from other sets also receiving errata when Hinterlands 2E drops.

Also a general rule change: returning to your action phase counts as the end of that buy phase for all things that trigger from the end of a buy phase e.g. Merchant Guild.
Logged

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1325
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1384
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2022, 08:41:45 am »
+6

Workshop and friends suddenly like Port a lot better.
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

NoMoreFun

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2012
  • Respect: +2126
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2022, 09:05:29 am »
+1

"Non duration" is a nerf so I would have preferred a bit of variety. So for example:
  • Counterfeit could play any Treasure twice, but only trash it if it isn't a Duration
  • Crypt, instead of setting aside Treasures immediately, could let you optionally set aside Treasures as you discard them from play
« Last Edit: June 25, 2022, 09:06:39 am by NoMoreFun »
Logged

Imrahil3

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 108
  • Respect: +212
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2022, 10:44:24 am »
+9

Kinda wish the rules for Durations simply stated they didn’t do their next-turn effects if not in play; that seems a lot cleaner than saying “non-Duration” on every card that could possibly play another card, and it allows a bit more flexibility, too.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11815
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12867
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2022, 10:48:44 am »
+8

Bonfire is a bit disappointing. It's not going to matter 90-93% of the time, but it was fun with on-trash effects.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

kieranmillar

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 152
  • Shuffle iT Username: kieranmillar
  • Respect: +355
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2022, 11:51:18 am »
+4

Kinda wish the rules for Durations simply stated they didn’t do their next-turn effects if not in play; that seems a lot cleaner than saying “non-Duration” on every card that could possibly play another card, and it allows a bit more flexibility, too.
I Procession an Archive. What now happens to the 4 cards still set aside at the end of the turn?
Logged

grrgrrgrr

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 329
  • Respect: +422
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2022, 12:28:57 pm »
+1

What excites me the most about this is that on the 29th of june, Hinterlands 2E "has been completely previewed". This means that the previews start on june 27th!

Very glad about the Herbalist errata. Though this card would obviously be axed when the opportunity arrises.
Logged

Imrahil3

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 108
  • Respect: +212
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2022, 12:29:51 pm »
+3

Kinda wish the rules for Durations simply stated they didn’t do their next-turn effects if not in play; that seems a lot cleaner than saying “non-Duration” on every card that could possibly play another card, and it allows a bit more flexibility, too.
I Procession an Archive. What now happens to the 4 cards still set aside at the end of the turn?

Theoretical FAQ: If a Duration card sets aside cards and is removed from play before finishing that card’s instructions, discard the set-aside cards.

That should cover most if not all edge cases, and it’s rare that one would intentionally Procession such a card anyways.

Edit: I think the only other edge case is Garrison, which puts tokens. So simply adding tokens to the above definition cleans everything up.

As an aside, this is 14 Duration cards with a weird ruling vs 25+ Durations arbitrarily shut out from cards otherwise.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2022, 01:03:54 pm by Imrahil3 »
Logged

joefarebrother

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 57
  • Shuffle iT Username: joefarebrother
  • Respect: +148
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2022, 01:02:16 pm »
0

What's the purpose of the prince change to non-command? I don't see any loops that were possible with it
Logged

grrgrrgrr

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 329
  • Respect: +422
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2022, 01:14:52 pm »
+2

What's the purpose of the prince change to non-command? I don't see any loops that were possible with it

Because Princed BoM could call Duration cards. And it was possible to Prince Estates that were under the effect of Inheritance (even if the Inherited card was of the Duration type. This included Prince itself).

Speaking of Inheritance, I think Inheritance should not be restricted from inheriting anything, but the Estates should gain all types from the Inherited cards during your turns. Which means that if you inherit a Duration card, the Estates themselves are, in fact, Duration cards.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2022, 01:16:41 pm by grrgrrgrr »
Logged

J Reggie

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 844
  • Shuffle iT Username: J Reggie
  • Respect: +1492
    • View Profile
    • Jeff Rosenthal Music
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2022, 04:35:06 pm »
+14

Bonfire is a bit disappointing. It's not going to matter 90-93% of the time, but it was fun with on-trash effects.

These precious few months when Bonfire could trash curses

JW

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 979
  • Shuffle iT Username: JW
  • Respect: +1792
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2022, 08:50:23 pm »
+10

Bonfire is a bit disappointing. It's not going to matter 90-93% of the time, but it was fun with on-trash effects.

And with Cursed Gold, Ruins, trashers you no longer need. Very disappointing to lose all these interesting uses, when the confusing rules cases could have been handled so easily with lesser errata.
Logged

Imrahil3

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 108
  • Respect: +212
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2022, 09:17:16 pm »
+6

Bonfire is a bit disappointing. It's not going to matter 90-93% of the time, but it was fun with on-trash effects.

And with Cursed Gold, Ruins, trashers you no longer need. Very disappointing to lose all these interesting uses, when the confusing rules cases could have been handled so easily with lesser errata.
Or just “non-Duration” like everything else.
Logged

vidicate

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
  • Shuffle iT Username: vidicate
  • Something clever goes here
  • Respect: +112
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2022, 12:12:32 am »
+2

Sadface for Hermit and Exploration. And also, as others have said, Bonfire. Otherwise, the rest are fine by me. But yeah, I just see Exploration being a much more niche purchase with this change, compared to when you could use loopholes like buy-phase / Event gainers (which it was clearly designed around).

It will be interesting when/if Highway gets the errata in 2E. On the whole, it will be more powerful and simpler I think.

edit: a word
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 02:06:20 am by vidicate »
Logged
WHERE ARE THE TURTLES?!!! …WHERE ARE THEY?!
-----
Felix: Let's see if you guys are as good as they say.
Grif: Prepare to be sorely disappointed.
-----
Who da man? I da man. I always suspected. -Dr. House

faust

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3383
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +5158
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2022, 01:21:31 am »
+4

Feels like Defiled Shrine should have triggered on "when you gain a Curse you bought". The way it is now, you can get Defiled Shrine VP when being attacked by Black Cat, or from Cursed Gold, which is not ideal.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

vidicate

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
  • Shuffle iT Username: vidicate
  • Something clever goes here
  • Respect: +112
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2022, 02:05:00 am »
0

^ Different, for sure. Sounds kind of cool—don’t know about how idealness factors in.
Logged
WHERE ARE THE TURTLES?!!! …WHERE ARE THEY?!
-----
Felix: Let's see if you guys are as good as they say.
Grif: Prepare to be sorely disappointed.
-----
Who da man? I da man. I always suspected. -Dr. House

grrgrrgrr

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 329
  • Respect: +422
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2022, 05:18:19 am »
+4

Feels like Defiled Shrine should have triggered on "when you gain a Curse you bought". The way it is now, you can get Defiled Shrine VP when being attacked by Black Cat, or from Cursed Gold, which is not ideal.

I think this change is fine and I wonder why it isn't "when you gain a Curse during your turn". Is it future proofing or is the interaction with Hideout too worrisome? And if you really want to restrict it to a Curse purchase, you can also make Defiled Shrine an Event.

That being said, the changes of all landmarks in the paragraph are kinda sloppy (though I guess they were sloppy in the first place). The Basilica one especially is just weird. I mean, you can now gain 4VP from a Paddock play. Or if you have played two Peddlers, any workshop variant will net you 2VP per play. That one IMO should be restricted to the Buy phase and ideally be "directly after spending a Buy, if you have $2 or more left, +2 VP".

Most changes are cool though. I'm especially happy with how they handled the Overpay mechanic.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2022, 12:52:51 pm »
+4

With Prince I'm just being extra safe, in this scenario where I've been burned before.

The Basilica change gives us the simpler card it could have always been. Most of the time you do not have Paddock with it; when you do, those games are different, which is fine by me, and I mean there are only 6 VP per player on Basilica. I understand "change is bad," but this change to Basilica is adding the kind of thing people are bemoaning losing elsewhere. And I mean it's in the name of simplicity.
Logged

Honkeyfresh

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 617
  • DSF lowest ratio upvotes-posts 14 yrs & counting
  • Respect: +228
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2022, 01:46:37 pm »
+2

Bonfire is a bit disappointing. It's not going to matter 90-93% of the time, but it was fun with on-trash effects.

And with Cursed Gold, Ruins, trashers you no longer need. Very disappointing to lose all these interesting uses, when the confusing rules cases could have been handled so easily with lesser errata.

100% agree.  The bonfire change is really disappointing.  is there a benefit I am not seeing?  Because this just seems to be unfun and eliminate a neat interaction that has the potential of trashing curses which often may be the only trashing in a kingdom. I for one lover junking attacks, but kind of hate them when there is no trashing available as they just make for meh hand slog games if there isn't a great source of draw available.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 01:50:35 pm by Honkeyfresh »
Logged
"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5318
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +3224
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2022, 02:08:18 pm »
+2

I think the preferences of strong online players just aren't the main consideration

mxdata

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1199
  • Respect: +1351
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2022, 07:22:29 pm »
0

So, with the new Basilica, if I play, say, two Markets and then a Workshop, I'll gain the VP, right?

I really don't get the point of these new weird wordings. "When they gain a card they bought" ... if anyone was confused about "when they buy a card", how would that be any clearer?

Innovation is going to be a lot stronger
Logged
They/them

mxdata

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1199
  • Respect: +1351
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2022, 07:23:33 pm »
0

Bonfire is a bit disappointing. It's not going to matter 90-93% of the time, but it was fun with on-trash effects.

And with Cursed Gold, Ruins, trashers you no longer need. Very disappointing to lose all these interesting uses, when the confusing rules cases could have been handled so easily with lesser errata.

100% agree.  The bonfire change is really disappointing.  is there a benefit I am not seeing?  Because this just seems to be unfun and eliminate a neat interaction that has the potential of trashing curses which often may be the only trashing in a kingdom. I for one lover junking attacks, but kind of hate them when there is no trashing available as they just make for meh hand slog games if there isn't a great source of draw available.

It's especially disappointing coming right after Charlatan was introduced. Granted, the combo of Charlatan + Bonfire isn't one that would come up very often, but that specific combo let you trash Curses with Bonfire, and it's being taken away almost as soon as it became possible!
Logged
They/them

mxdata

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1199
  • Respect: +1351
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2022, 07:25:09 pm »
+1

Feels like Defiled Shrine should have triggered on "when you gain a Curse you bought". The way it is now, you can get Defiled Shrine VP when being attacked by Black Cat, or from Cursed Gold, which is not ideal.

Or buying something with Swamp Hag in play or buying a Blockaded card
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 07:26:18 pm by mxdata »
Logged
They/them

mxdata

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1199
  • Respect: +1351
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2022, 07:31:56 pm »
+10

"At the end of your buy phase if you didn't gain any cards in it"

How on Earth is this preferable to "If you didn't buy any cards"?? The old phrasing is clear and immediately understandable, the new phrasing is unnecessarily convoluted. And I can't imagine *anyone* who would be confused by the old wording somehow being *less* confused at the new wording. Surely, if anything, they'd be even more confused by that wording
Logged
They/them

mxdata

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1199
  • Respect: +1351
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2022, 07:46:07 pm »
0

Feels like Defiled Shrine should have triggered on "when you gain a Curse you bought". The way it is now, you can get Defiled Shrine VP when being attacked by Black Cat, or from Cursed Gold, which is not ideal.

Or buying something with Swamp Hag in play or buying a Blockaded card

Opponent's Swamp Hag in play + Defiled Shrine + Watchtower in hand = "Thank you for the VP!"
Logged
They/them

dane-m

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 162
  • Shuffle iT Username: dane-m
  • Respect: +198
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2022, 10:27:28 am »
+1

No longer will I be able to ask people the question "In what scenario can one spend the +$1 from Storyteller?"  Admittedly not the greatest loss in the world.
Logged

jonaskoelker

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 348
  • Grand Market = cantrip Woodcutter
  • Respect: +397
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2022, 12:59:58 pm »
+1

Given this errata I guess Plan on Ruins became stronger vs. Cultist.

In what scenario can one spend the +$1 from Storyteller?

Black Market via either Crown or Capitalism
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2022, 01:16:59 pm »
0

No longer will I be able to ask people the question "In what scenario can one spend the +$1 from Storyteller?"  Admittedly not the greatest loss in the world.

Every time? If nothing else, you spent it automatically to draw a card.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9707
  • Respect: +10765
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2022, 01:55:01 pm »
0

It seems very weird that Highway isn't on the list. Weird enough to make me think that it's about to be cut.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

spineflu

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1365
  • Shuffle iT Username: spineflu
  • Head Empty, Heart Worms, Can't Lose
  • Respect: +1353
    • View Profile
    • my instagram, where i paint things
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2022, 02:05:17 pm »
0

with the new overpay, are we losing the "+" in the overpayable cards' costs? or is that a quirk of shuffle.it?
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2022, 02:10:36 pm »
+5

It seems very weird that Highway isn't on the list. Weird enough to make me think that it's about to be cut.

No Hinterlands errata is on this list. It's going to be on the last day of Hinterlands previews.
Logged

Gherald

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +1398
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2022, 02:26:45 pm »
+1

It always was weird that Storyteller gave 1 coin that would nearly always be spent by it on drawing; people remarked on this when it was first released.

Bonfire feels misnamed now that it only burns...Coppers? More of a "Smelt" event or something, sad to lose the flexibility.

Basilica not having a bought/buy phase qualifier is strange (and more swingy)

Exploration was a weak project that you could sometimes do interesting non-buy gains with, but no longer. Even more ignorable now generally.
Logged
My opponent has more loot than me

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2022, 03:01:36 pm »
0

It always was weird that Storyteller gave 1 coin that would nearly always be spent by it on drawing; people remarked on this when it was first released.

Yeah, although this new version has its own awkwardness.

Bonfire feels misnamed now that it only burns...Coppers? More of a "Smelt" event or something, sad to lose the flexibility.

I strongly agree on both counts. The flavor is pretty bad now and it's sad to lose the interactions.

Exploration was a weak project that you could sometimes do interesting non-buy gains with, but no longer. Even more ignorable now generally.

Exploration is often worth buying and just getting the bonus once at that time, for what that's worth.
Logged

spineflu

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1365
  • Shuffle iT Username: spineflu
  • Head Empty, Heart Worms, Can't Lose
  • Respect: +1353
    • View Profile
    • my instagram, where i paint things
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2022, 05:10:33 pm »
+2

Bonfire feels misnamed now that it only burns...Coppers? More of a "Smelt" event

The flavor is pretty bad now

what, you don't like fish? :wandering_minstrel_art_closeup.jpg:
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11815
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12867
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2022, 05:43:15 pm »
0

Exploration is often worth buying and just getting the bonus once at that time, for what that's worth.

If it's worth it to buy it just to get the bonus once, isn't it probably also worth it to skip buying something on a later $4 or worse turn to get it again? Sure, the first unspent Villager you have is more valuable than the second, so as long as it remains unspent, maybe the first one was only barely worth it and the second one isn't quite, and you could plausibly never have another $4 or worse turn for the rest of the game, so this could indeed be the right play — but there is also an obvious pitfall here because buying the Exploration feels like you're spending your money while skipping your buy phase without buying anything feels like you're wasting it, even though they're not actually substantially different.

(I'm not really disagreeing with you though, just bringing up a related point that feels worth mentioning)
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

CaptainTheo

  • Alchemist
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Respect: +40
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2022, 05:57:24 pm »
+3

I'm puzzled by some of these changes, such as:
  • Hermit being heavily nerfed, as you can no longer exchange it for a Madman if you buy an Event that gains cards, or play a gainer like Horn of Plenty in your Buy phase. Nor can it use the Scheme or Prince trick to both top-deck it and gain a Madman. The only upside is that a Hermit who goes mad returns to the supply instead of being trashed, making it possible to have more of both cards.
  • This also nerfs Exploration significantly for similar reasons.
  • Bonfire being nerfed. This isn't such a big deal as I normally just use it to trash Copper anyway and it's still a good card but the rule change seems unnecessarily.
  • Normally errata in Dominion simplifies cards but this seems to have done the opposite with the presence of "non-Duration actions", which seems unnecessary to really refer to, along with "gain a card you bought", as I cannot see any problem with the original wording, which was the much simpler "buy" and means the same thing.
Prince is also nerfed marginally as it doesn't work with Band of Misfits any more (not that you could anyway without a discount) or the occasional edge case when it works with a Duration like Gear that you can get use out of without using its Duration effect. Modifying this one makes sense as as normally you don't want to set aside Durations with it, as does changing its type as it does function like a Duration and Command.

Many cards have been buffed, such as all the cards whose effect now applies when the card is gained in any way, not just bought, ie Port, Hovel, Basilica, Defiled Shrine, Forum, Plan. I don't have a problem with this, but it's weird that the opposite was done with Hermit/Exploration.

The other big set of cards to be buffed are the discounters, making them all Throne-Room-able, which is fine as it is consistent with Bridge and we'd been told that this was happen. It's not strictly a buff as they can't feasibly be played as Ways any more.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2022, 05:59:00 pm by CaptainTheo »
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2022, 07:30:53 pm »
+2

There was no goal of buffing or nerfing any cards; that was simply not a factor. In all cases the goal was fixing problems.

  • Hermit being heavily nerfed, as you can no longer exchange it for a Madman if you buy an Event that gains cards, or play a gainer like Horn of Plenty in your Buy phase. Nor can it use the Scheme or Prince trick to both top-deck it and gain a Madman. The only upside is that a Hermit who goes mad returns to the supply instead of being trashed, making it possible to have more of both cards.
What you call "heavily nerfed" I would call "identical in most games." Most games do not have an Event that gains cards to use with Hermit.

Whereas, every game with Hermit has the Hermit pile, so Hermit now returning to the pile and so not limiting you to 10 Madman plays per game is a significant change.

But again, the point wasn't to nerf Hermit (a super-strong card); the point was to have a better wording for it.

  • This also nerfs Exploration significantly for similar reasons.
Again most games Exploration is not paired with an Event that gains cards.

  • Bonfire being nerfed. This isn't such a big deal as I normally just use it to trash Copper anyway and it's still a good card but the rule change seems unnecessarily.
Trashing arbitrary cards from play breaks the game. That's why I changed it; to not break the game. Going into play uses up a card for the turn; taking it out of play lets you reuse it and generate loops.

In this particular case I could fix this while having almost no effect on the card's gameplay; you were already trashing Coppers with it.

  • Normally errata in Dominion simplifies cards but this seems to have done the opposite with the presence of "non-Duration actions", which seems unnecessary to really refer to, along with "gain a card you bought", as I cannot see any problem with the original wording, which was the much simpler "buy" and means the same thing.
"When you buy this" and "When you gain this, if you bought it" are in fact not the same functionally. They happen at different times.

And that's why those cards changed; because so many players conflate buy and gain, and are confused when Workshop on Ports doesn't gain them one, or when a when-buy trigger happens before a when-gain instead of letting them order it, and so on. In a few cases I could not just use "gain" as it generated loops or other problems, and so those have that awful wording, "when you gain a card you bought." A few of those are "When you gain a card in your Buy phase" instead, which is simpler but was again not always usable.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2022, 07:31:53 pm »
+1

Bonfire feels misnamed now that it only burns...Coppers? More of a "Smelt" event or something, sad to lose the flexibility.

I strongly agree on both counts. The flavor is pretty bad now and it's sad to lose the interactions.
Flavor was not a consideration, for sure, since this was fixing a published card rather than making a new one.

I continue to be happy to have fixed this broken card, despite your objections.
Logged

CaptainTheo

  • Alchemist
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Respect: +40
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2022, 07:54:37 pm »
+1

Thankyou for these explanations, appreciated.
Logged

tk9077

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2022, 08:44:54 am »
+2

I have a random, maybe silly question, but was still curious on any thoughts from the community. How are folks thinking of incorporating these errata into the physical games? Should we continue to play the cards as printed, or ignore the printed text and imagine they have the new text, or get crafty and print stickers with the new text to place on existing cards? I am trying to get ideas on if/how I can update my physical copies, or if I should just not worry about it.
Logged

Imrahil3

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 108
  • Respect: +212
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2022, 09:37:49 am »
+1

I have a random, maybe silly question, but was still curious on any thoughts from the community. How are folks thinking of incorporating these errata into the physical games? Should we continue to play the cards as printed, or ignore the printed text and imagine they have the new text, or get crafty and print stickers with the new text to place on existing cards? I am trying to get ideas on if/how I can update my physical copies, or if I should just not worry about it.

Donald’s general take is that we can play however we want IRL. Personally, I think it’s best to use general errata (ie Coffers can be spent at any time during Buy phase) and ignore card-specific errata (changes to Bonfire). Easier to remember what’s written on the card in front of you than what’s written on the forums, or Reddit, or wait where did I see that errata again?

But, if your group plays online a lot as well, I’d go with all official errata.
Logged

vidicate

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
  • Shuffle iT Username: vidicate
  • Something clever goes here
  • Respect: +112
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2022, 10:21:02 am »
+1

I have a random, maybe silly question, but was still curious on any thoughts from the community. How are folks thinking of incorporating these errata into the physical games? Should we continue to play the cards as printed, or ignore the printed text and imagine they have the new text, or get crafty and print stickers with the new text to place on existing cards? I am trying to get ideas on if/how I can update my physical copies, or if I should just not worry about it.

Donald’s general take is that we can play however we want IRL. Personally, I think it’s best to use general errata (ie Coffers can be spent at any time during Buy phase) and ignore card-specific errata (changes to Bonfire). Easier to remember what’s written on the card in front of you than what’s written on the forums, or Reddit, or wait where did I see that errata again?

Yeah the Don really isn’t going to care if, and even assumes, players will play they’re printed cards the same as always. That’s not the point of these changes.

Quote
But, if your group plays online a lot as well, I’d go with all official errata.

Even then, most cards it’s not going to make a huge difference. So if you have people who can’t remember all the changes, you’ll still be fine if you end up playing cards as written. (I’m not disagreeing with you, but just stating this for the benefit of the asker.)
Logged
WHERE ARE THE TURTLES?!!! …WHERE ARE THEY?!
-----
Felix: Let's see if you guys are as good as they say.
Grif: Prepare to be sorely disappointed.
-----
Who da man? I da man. I always suspected. -Dr. House

Imrahil3

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 108
  • Respect: +212
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2022, 10:36:13 am »
+2

Good call - it’s probably most important to follow errata where it presents a jarring shift in what a card does rather than the “everything is the same except one edge case is slightly different” situations.
Logged

dane-m

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 162
  • Shuffle iT Username: dane-m
  • Respect: +198
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2022, 12:12:21 pm »
0

How are folks thinking of incorporating these errata into the physical games? Should we continue to play the cards as printed, or ignore the printed text and imagine they have the new text, or get crafty and print stickers with the new text to place on existing cards? I am trying to get ideas on if/how I can update my physical copies, or if I should just not worry about it.
I have my cards sleeved, so for some time I had been contemplating inserting paper slips with the new text so that on the rare occasions that I shall play ftf in the future I wouldn't find myself misplaying cards by automatically using my memory of what they do in online play.

One concern I had was that maybe my ftf opponents would object to all the art work being hidden, though as they are all of a similar vintage to me, they might have considered that a small price to pay for having the instructions in a large font.

A more major concern was whether it would be possible by feel to detect whether a sleeve had a paper slip in it or not.  I wasn't concerned that players might deliberately seek to identify the top card of their deck – I have great faith in the integrity of my ftf opponents – but rather that they might accidentally identify it and then, because of their integrity, find themselves wondering how they should react to the knowledge.  With so many cards now having errata that concern is disappearing because there are likely to be several modified cards in any Kingdom, plus enough unmodified cards that it wouldn't even be possible to know by feel whether a card was one of the base Treasure and Victory ones.

Whether I can get off my backside long enough to do all the necessary printing and guillotining of sheets of paper to add the errata to all the cards in my collection is another matter.  :(
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2022, 12:26:31 pm »
0

I continue to be happy to have fixed this broken card, despite your objections.

Well that's unfair and misleading. I never objected to it being fixed. Just to it being restricted to Coppers.
Logged

JW

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 979
  • Shuffle iT Username: JW
  • Respect: +1792
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2022, 12:39:21 pm »
+1

I continue to be happy to have fixed this broken card, despite your objections.

Well that's unfair and misleading. I never objected to it being fixed. Just to it being restricted to Coppers.

Changing Bonfire to non-Duration is a clear fix. What else needs to be done to avoid potentially problematic rules interactions? A per turn limit to avoid loops?
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2022, 01:11:14 pm »
+1

I continue to be happy to have fixed this broken card, despite your objections.

Well that's unfair and misleading. I never objected to it being fixed. Just to it being restricted to Coppers.

Changing Bonfire to non-Duration is a clear fix. What else needs to be done to avoid potentially problematic rules interactions? A per turn limit to avoid loops?

It’s my understanding that “non-Duration” would have been a sufficient fix.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2022, 02:22:39 pm »
+2

I continue to be happy to have fixed this broken card, despite your objections.

Well that's unfair and misleading. I never objected to it being fixed. Just to it being restricted to Coppers.
It has always sounded like you do in fact object to me fixing the problem of Bonfire trashing arbitrary cards from play. It seems to me that you think of the Duration thing as a problem, but that's it; so, why not just non-Duration? But there was another problem and I fixed that one too.

Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2022, 02:36:55 pm »
+1

I continue to be happy to have fixed this broken card, despite your objections.

Well that's unfair and misleading. I never objected to it being fixed. Just to it being restricted to Coppers.
It has always sounded like you do in fact object to me fixing the problem of Bonfire trashing arbitrary cards from play. It seems to me that you think of the Duration thing as a problem, but that's it; so, why not just non-Duration? But there was another problem and I fixed that one too.

Well I guess I forgot there was another problem, and that's on me. Sorry about that.
Logged

Gherald

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 676
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +1398
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2022, 04:06:27 pm »
+6

*idly wonders what the other mysterious problem was*
Logged
My opponent has more loot than me

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3296
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4443
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2022, 04:51:37 pm »
+1

Play card X, buy Bonfire, trash card X from play, buy Gamble, play Graverobber, regain card X from trash, buy Gamble, replay card X... I haven't thought it through but I bet this can probably turn into an infinite loop.
Logged

NoMoreFun

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2012
  • Respect: +2126
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2022, 05:57:36 pm »
+2

Trashing Throne Room variants and Command cards from play creates the same tracking issues as with Durations? Is that the issue?

I just think those situations are quite rare, and in fixing it, much more common use cases like Ruins, Rats, Catacombs, early game cards (Chapel) are lost.

What about "This turn, during clean-up, you may trash up to 2 cards when you discard them from play"?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2022, 06:00:35 pm by NoMoreFun »
Logged

joefarebrother

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 57
  • Shuffle iT Username: joefarebrother
  • Respect: +148
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2022, 06:03:55 pm »
+5

is it really a problem for the game to have like a 4 card infinite loop anyway?
Logged

vidicate

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
  • Shuffle iT Username: vidicate
  • Something clever goes here
  • Respect: +112
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2022, 06:15:36 pm »
0

*idly wonders what the other mysterious problem was*
LOL this makes me think of when an exploit gets fixed in an online multiplayer game, but when the update is announced they of course don’t want to make the exploit/cheat public.
Of course that’s not what’s happening here; it’s staying a mystery for now because it’s already written up in tomorrow’s preview.
Logged
WHERE ARE THE TURTLES?!!! …WHERE ARE THEY?!
-----
Felix: Let's see if you guys are as good as they say.
Grif: Prepare to be sorely disappointed.
-----
Who da man? I da man. I always suspected. -Dr. House

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10722
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2022, 07:52:51 pm »
+3

*idly wonders what the other mysterious problem was*

I also don’t remember. I’m just taking his word for it.
Logged

Ethan

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 112
  • Respect: +192
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2022, 04:24:17 am »
+3

I hate the new on-buy wording.
If anyone get confused by the old wording, he just need someone to remind him, and he will learn the difference from then on.
Logged

navical

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
  • Respect: +268
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2022, 05:18:06 am »
+2

Trashing arbitrary cards from play breaks the game. That's why I changed it; to not break the game. Going into play uses up a card for the turn; taking it out of play lets you reuse it and generate loops.

In this particular case I could fix this while having almost no effect on the card's gameplay; you were already trashing Coppers with it.

I assume it's this.
Logged

Holger

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 741
  • Respect: +465
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2022, 06:08:53 am »
+2

Trashing arbitrary cards from play breaks the game. That's why I changed it; to not break the game. Going into play uses up a card for the turn; taking it out of play lets you reuse it and generate loops.

In this particular case I could fix this while having almost no effect on the card's gameplay; you were already trashing Coppers with it.

I assume it's this.

Probably, though there's still other cards that can trash "arbitrary" cards from play, e.g. Procession for all Action cards and Counterfeit for all Treasures. (But those two stay in play themselves, making infinite loops harder to do.)

However, I would be surprised if those infinite loops with Bonfire came up much in real (full random) games, as they require quite specific multi-card combos. I expect they would be less common than a Stampede/Collection stalemate.

But maybe there would have been a broken Bonfire combo with a card from the next expansion... ;)
Logged

grrgrrgrr

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 329
  • Respect: +422
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2022, 02:35:14 pm »
+2

Loops are basically megaturns. As long as these require skill rather than luck, it really shouldn't be too problematic. Stalemates are way more problematic in my opinion.

And I know this isn't gonna happen, and I may irreperably tarnish my reputation for saying this (and I may also be the wrong person), but... I really think Inheritance should go back to its pre-2019-errata form. One of the benefits of that form is also that the Estates inherit types, which makes it far more natural to determine whether it should be playable with Procession etc. And the development team has actually made good effort in reducing the amount of problems that come with that version (though there is still one bottleneck, namely with Throne Room variants). Meanwhile, the amount of "poor interactions" (such as with Conjurer) that the new version has keeps increasing.
(and this is solely about Inheritance, not about BoM/Overlord. These should definitely stick with the 2019 errata.)
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2528
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1642
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2022, 05:50:35 am »
0

Have Renaissance and Guilds been reprinted yet with the Merchant Guild, Patron and Coffers errata from earlier this year? I'm wondering if there's a printed version of these two sets with only those changes and without the newly changed Exploration, Innovation and overpay.

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #60 on: June 30, 2022, 12:19:43 pm »
+1

Have Renaissance and Guilds been reprinted yet with the Merchant Guild, Patron and Coffers errata from earlier this year? I'm wondering if there's a printed version of these two sets with only those changes and without the newly changed Exploration, Innovation and overpay.
No, the first thing to get reprinted with the recent errata (not counting the 2E's) is Adventures. I don't know if it actually has been printed or not, but the files went to the printer months ago. Those other sets, the files have not gone to the printer.
Logged

vidicate

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
  • Shuffle iT Username: vidicate
  • Something clever goes here
  • Respect: +112
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #61 on: June 30, 2022, 01:44:02 pm »
0

Have Renaissance and Guilds been reprinted yet with the Merchant Guild, Patron and Coffers errata from earlier this year? I'm wondering if there's a printed version of these two sets with only those changes and without the newly changed Exploration, Innovation and overpay.
No, the first thing to get reprinted with the recent errata (not counting the 2E's) is Adventures. I don't know if it actually has been printed or not, but the files went to the printer months ago. Those other sets, the files have not gone to the printer.

Based on a reply you gave to another forum member today, you’re still looking at feedback on cards not sent to the printer yet? There are a couple of cards that are regrettably losing some unique qualities, but I’m withholding any further thoughts for now as I’m eagerly awaiting your 2022 errata “secret history”.

Related: Any chance of adding a couple more cards for wording reprints? For example, you have already given your blessing for people playing Priest + Sewers, or Elder + Barge the cooler way. The cards matching the intent would be pretty sweet. (If I’ve misspoken or misinterpreted your words, let me know.)
Logged
WHERE ARE THE TURTLES?!!! …WHERE ARE THEY?!
-----
Felix: Let's see if you guys are as good as they say.
Grif: Prepare to be sorely disappointed.
-----
Who da man? I da man. I always suspected. -Dr. House

Honkeyfresh

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 617
  • DSF lowest ratio upvotes-posts 14 yrs & counting
  • Respect: +228
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #62 on: June 30, 2022, 02:20:16 pm »
0

Kinda wish the rules for Durations simply stated they didn’t do their next-turn effects if not in play; that seems a lot cleaner than saying “non-Duration” on every card that could possibly play another card, and it allows a bit more flexibility, too.
I Procession an Archive. What now happens to the 4 cards still set aside at the end of the turn?

Theoretical FAQ: If a Duration card sets aside cards and is removed from play before finishing that card’s instructions, discard the set-aside cards.

That should cover most if not all edge cases, and it’s rare that one would intentionally Procession such a card anyways.

Edit: I think the only other edge case is Garrison, which puts tokens. So simply adding tokens to the above definition cleans everything up.

As an aside, this is 14 Duration cards with a weird ruling vs 25+ Durations arbitrarily shut out from cards otherwise.

disagree.  A lot of times u want to procession cards even absent a 6 card available for gain.  especially when no + actions/draw doing a procession often is strong enough to buy back the card u processed and then some.
Logged
"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

Honkeyfresh

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 617
  • DSF lowest ratio upvotes-posts 14 yrs & counting
  • Respect: +228
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #63 on: June 30, 2022, 02:23:36 pm »
0

Feels like Defiled Shrine should have triggered on "when you gain a Curse you bought". The way it is now, you can get Defiled Shrine VP when being attacked by Black Cat, or from Cursed Gold, which is not ideal.

agree.  being attacked with a curse should not reward the person getting attacked substantially.  That is a possible 15 pt "fountain of curses". Maybe when u gain a curse not caused by an opponent's reaction? "shouldn't be too hard?

« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 02:28:58 pm by Honkeyfresh »
Logged
"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

Honkeyfresh

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 617
  • DSF lowest ratio upvotes-posts 14 yrs & counting
  • Respect: +228
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #64 on: June 30, 2022, 02:26:58 pm »
+1

Feels like Defiled Shrine should have triggered on "when you gain a Curse you bought". The way it is now, you can get Defiled Shrine VP when being attacked by Black Cat, or from Cursed Gold, which is not ideal.

I think this change is fine and I wonder why it isn't "when you gain a Curse during your turn". Is it future proofing or is the interaction with Hideout too worrisome? And if you really want to restrict it to a Curse purchase, you can also make Defiled Shrine an Event.

That being said, the changes of all landmarks in the paragraph are kinda sloppy (though I guess they were sloppy in the first place). The Basilica one especially is just weird. I mean, you can now gain 4VP from a Paddock play. Or if you have played two Peddlers, any workshop variant will net you 2VP per play. That one IMO should be restricted to the Buy phase and ideally be "directly after spending a Buy, if you have $2 or more left, +2 VP".

Most changes are cool though. I'm especially happy with how they handled the Overpay mechanic.

100.  paddock and any workshop variant shouldn't trigger basilica just because you have played 2 coins of cards during your turn.  It defeats the entire handcuff that basilica point gains entail.
Logged
"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

Honkeyfresh

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 617
  • DSF lowest ratio upvotes-posts 14 yrs & counting
  • Respect: +228
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #65 on: June 30, 2022, 03:03:35 pm »
0

"At the end of your buy phase if you didn't gain any cards in it"

How on Earth is this preferable to "If you didn't buy any cards"?? The old phrasing is clear and immediately understandable, the new phrasing is unnecessarily convoluted. And I can't imagine *anyone* who would be confused by the old wording somehow being *less* confused at the new wording. Surely, if anything, they'd be even more confused by that wording

100
Logged
"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

Honkeyfresh

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 617
  • DSF lowest ratio upvotes-posts 14 yrs & counting
  • Respect: +228
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #66 on: June 30, 2022, 03:04:54 pm »
0

Feels like Defiled Shrine should have triggered on "when you gain a Curse you bought". The way it is now, you can get Defiled Shrine VP when being attacked by Black Cat, or from Cursed Gold, which is not ideal.

Or buying something with Swamp Hag in play or buying a Blockaded card

Opponent's Swamp Hag in play + Defiled Shrine + Watchtower in hand = "Thank you for the VP!"

with villa sleigh and ambassador you could even throw that curse back at them too!
Logged
"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

Imrahil3

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 108
  • Respect: +212
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2022, 04:14:39 pm »
0

Kinda wish the rules for Durations simply stated they didn’t do their next-turn effects if not in play; that seems a lot cleaner than saying “non-Duration” on every card that could possibly play another card, and it allows a bit more flexibility, too.
I Procession an Archive. What now happens to the 4 cards still set aside at the end of the turn?

Theoretical FAQ: If a Duration card sets aside cards and is removed from play before finishing that card’s instructions, discard the set-aside cards.

That should cover most if not all edge cases, and it’s rare that one would intentionally Procession such a card anyways.

Edit: I think the only other edge case is Garrison, which puts tokens. So simply adding tokens to the above definition cleans everything up.

As an aside, this is 14 Duration cards with a weird ruling vs 25+ Durations arbitrarily shut out from cards otherwise.

disagree.  A lot of times u want to procession cards even absent a 6 card available for gain.  especially when no + actions/draw doing a procession often is strong enough to buy back the card u processed and then some.

What do $5 cards have to do with anything? I’m talking about Durations, which often revolve around getting a benefit next turn. Here are some highlights of Durations under my schema:

Processioned Haven: +2 Cards, +2 Actions, set aside two cards and then discard them.
Processioned Research: +2 Actions, Trash two cards from your hand. Per $1 the trashed cards cost, discard the top card of your deck.
Processioned Tactician: If you have at least one card in your hand, discard your hand twice.
Processioned Mastermind:
Processioned Swamp Hag:
Processioned Pirate:

Most cards end up just being +2 Cards, +2 Actions, or otherwise doing nothing. A few like Wharf give you both turns of benefit up front in exchange for burning the card now.

It’s not nothing, but rarely the optimal play.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2528
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1642
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2022, 05:18:21 pm »
0

Theoretical FAQ: If a Duration card sets aside cards and is removed from play before finishing that card’s instructions, discard the set-aside cards.

That should cover most if not all edge cases, and it’s rare that one would intentionally Procession such a card anyways.

Edit: I think the only other edge case is Garrison, which puts tokens. So simply adding tokens to the above definition cleans everything up.

As an aside, this is 14 Duration cards with a weird ruling vs 25+ Durations arbitrarily shut out from cards otherwise.

Garrison already is defined as losing all tokens when it leaves play. It's in the rulebook.

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2022, 05:47:08 pm »
+2

Based on a reply you gave to another forum member today, you’re still looking at feedback on cards not sent to the printer yet? There are a couple of cards that are regrettably losing some unique qualities, but I’m withholding any further thoughts for now as I’m eagerly awaiting your 2022 errata “secret history”.

Related: Any chance of adding a couple more cards for wording reprints? For example, you have already given your blessing for people playing Priest + Sewers, or Elder + Barge the cooler way. The cards matching the intent would be pretty sweet. (If I’ve misspoken or misinterpreted your words, let me know.)
I do not recommend getting excited by the idea of convincing me not to do whichever thing; especially, when the fix is "preserve some unique quality." There may be even more errata once the sets actually get reprinted; you can be optimistic there, if you've got a good suggestion. Adventures already went to the printers so any further changes there will take a while.

I put in some time on Priest / Sewers for this set of errata. There were people in favor of changing it. I'll look at it again when actually reprinting Renaissance, but this time it did not happen. To me the change seemed worse except for the specific interaction with Sewers.

There is no "intent" behind Priest / Sewers. There's just, this is how the text turns into what happens.

I am not so thrilled with the idea of changing Barge to gain an Elder combo.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2528
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1642
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #70 on: July 01, 2022, 02:52:57 am »
0

So if I'm not mistaken, Donate is not changed to fix the Cargo Ship problem, right?

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2528
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1642
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #71 on: July 01, 2022, 03:13:40 am »
0

How does overpay work now? Based on what Ingix wrote, it seems the actual overpaying happens when you pay, before when-buy? But I don't think that makes any difference, I mean whether it's on when-pay or when-buy? Well, it could make a difference if you play with old versions of cards like Haggler; on when-buy you could gain Silk Merchant and have more $ to overpay with.

The ability that you overpaid for now happens on when-gain. So I guess this means that when you overpay, you choose how much, then you gain the card you bought, then the overpay ability happens? With Stonemason, you choose how much to overpay, then gain Stonemason, then choose the cards to gain?

How does this work with Possession? So I guess you set up a future when-gain ability when you overpay, for when you gain the Stonemason that you paid for, for instance. Something like, "the next time you gain this, gain two action cards each costing the amount you overpaid." That seems to mean that neither player, Possessor or Possessed, gets the overpay ability, since the player who overpaid never gained the card?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2022, 01:33:34 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2022, 01:05:03 pm »
0

So if I'm not mistaken, Donate is not changed to fix the Cargo Ship problem, right?
Without thinking about it I don't know what you're talking about; so, not intentionally.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #73 on: July 01, 2022, 01:09:13 pm »
+1

How does overpay work now? Based on what Ingix wrote, it seems the actual overpaying happens when you pay, before when-buy? But I don't think that makes any difference, I mean whether it's on when-pay or when-buy? Well, it could make a difference if you play with old versions of cards like Haggler; on when-buy you could gain Silk Merchant and have more $ to overpay with.

The ability that you overpaid for now happens on when-gain. So I guess this means that when you overpay, you choose how much, then you gain the card you bought, then the overpay ability happens? With Stonemason, you choose have much to overpay, then gain Stonemason, then choose the cards to gain?

How does this work with Possession? So I guess you set up a future when-gain ability when you overpay, for when you gain the Stonemason that you paid for, for instance. Something like, "the next time you gain this, gain two action cards each costing the amount you overpaid." That seems to mean that neither player, Possessor or Possessed, gets the overpay ability, since the player who overpaid never gained the card?
Overpay: When you pay for a card you're buying, you can pay extra; when you gain the card, stuff happens based on the amount you paid.

There is no rulebook yet for the next printing of Guilds, so I don't have rulebook text to quote, and can't check it to see how it works with Possession. For sure the online versions do *something* in these situations; I don't know what it is. It sounds likely that the rulebook text will mean that no-one gets the when-gain part of overpay if the gain was Possession'd away.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2528
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1642
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #74 on: July 01, 2022, 01:48:15 pm »
0

So if I'm not mistaken, Donate is not changed to fix the Cargo Ship problem, right?
Without thinking about it I don't know what you're talking about; so, not intentionally.

This:

It seems clearly preferable for e.g. Cargo Ship to be discarded in clean-up if there's no card set-aside, even if we can come up with a way to gain a card after that.

It is also seeming like, before Empires is reprinted next (and I don't know when that is and my most recent files are December 2020), I should look at, can I move Donate to e.g. when you buy it.

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2022, 04:19:41 pm »
0

So if I'm not mistaken, Donate is not changed to fix the Cargo Ship problem, right?
Without thinking about it I don't know what you're talking about; so, not intentionally.

This:

It seems clearly preferable for e.g. Cargo Ship to be discarded in clean-up if there's no card set-aside, even if we can come up with a way to gain a card after that.

It is also seeming like, before Empires is reprinted next (and I don't know when that is and my most recent files are December 2020), I should look at, can I move Donate to e.g. when you buy it.
Ah. Well Empires hasn't been reprinted yet, so I still have time.

We looked at moving Donate to when-buy; just-before-drawing was better; and Cargo Ship vanished into the mists of the conversation. Possibly there is still a better wording that times it at when-buy. I'll have to go look at the discussions; for sure there were wordings timed then that were passed over for reasons of some sort.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2022, 04:37:33 pm »
+4

We looked at moving Donate to when-buy; just-before-drawing was better; and Cargo Ship vanished into the mists of the conversation. Possibly there is still a better wording that times it at when-buy. I'll have to go look at the discussions; for sure there were wordings timed then that were passed over for reasons of some sort.
Okay what we most strongly considered was: "Put your deck into your discard pile. Trash any number of cards from: your discard pile, your hand, and your Coppers in play."

This has issues! It needs once-per-turn or you can get loops with it. It's more functionally different, e.g. you can't trash a Cursed Gold you played (the cards aren't in your hand because then you e.g. buy Villa and just used Donate as draw).

The Cargo Ship thing is a real issue; I'm not just dismissing it. Donate lets anything in Dominion happen after discarding in Clean-up; of course that's problematic, why haven't I fixed that yet, man.

So this is the version to think about.

Donate: Event, 8D
Once per turn: Put your deck into your discard pile. Trash any number of cards from: your discard pile, your hand, and your Coppers in play.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2528
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1642
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2022, 07:00:57 pm »
+2

One idea: Original (or current) Donate, but "put any number of cards in the trash" instead of "trash any number of cards". Same difference as with putting cards into your discard pile vs. discarding them. Then nothing can trigger, I think.

ems57fcva

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2022, 10:48:13 pm »
0

"Non duration" is a nerf so I would have preferred a bit of variety. So for example:
  • Counterfeit could play any Treasure twice, but only trash it if it isn't a Duration
  • Crypt, instead of setting aside Treasures immediately, could let you optionally set aside Treasures as you discard them from play
I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

For Crypt, I think your suggestion is the right way to go:  Trashing or moving a Duration which is still doing something (or trying to) is problematic, but once that Duration is ready to be discarded from play it should be available for cards like Crypt.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2022, 10:50:05 pm by ems57fcva »
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2528
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1642
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2022, 04:24:00 am »
0

I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

Throne Rooms already work that way, and Counterfeit is indeed a Throne Room. The card text would have to be changed to specifically address Durations though, somehow saying that the trashing happens after any future effects. Sounds messy. The only alternative I can think of is "the next time you discard that Treasure from play, trash it." Not exactly better than the current fix.

grrgrrgrr

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 329
  • Respect: +422
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2022, 04:52:44 am »
0

We looked at moving Donate to when-buy; just-before-drawing was better; and Cargo Ship vanished into the mists of the conversation. Possibly there is still a better wording that times it at when-buy. I'll have to go look at the discussions; for sure there were wordings timed then that were passed over for reasons of some sort.
Okay what we most strongly considered was: "Put your deck into your discard pile. Trash any number of cards from: your discard pile, your hand, and your Coppers in play."

This has issues! It needs once-per-turn or you can get loops with it. It's more functionally different, e.g. you can't trash a Cursed Gold you played (the cards aren't in your hand because then you e.g. buy Villa and just used Donate as draw).

The Cargo Ship thing is a real issue; I'm not just dismissing it. Donate lets anything in Dominion happen after discarding in Clean-up; of course that's problematic, why haven't I fixed that yet, man.

So this is the version to think about.

Donate: Event, 8D
Once per turn: Put your deck into your discard pile. Trash any number of cards from: your discard pile, your hand, and your Coppers in play.

I think I can speak on behalf of a sizeable portion of the userbase when I say that it's good that you didn't go for this change. And honestly, it seems like the problem lies with Cargo Ship, namely that events in the cleanup can change whether CS needs to be discarded from play. This can be changed by adding the words "before Cleanup" in Cargo Ship's wording. Sure, it looses interaction with Improve, which is of course not ideal as they are in the same set but not terrible either.

EDIT: I actually think this is a really interesting change, but I don't see why you couldn't say "non-Duration cards you have in play", especially with the once-per-turn clause (and even without the restriction, 8D would make it a lot harder to create a loop). Yeah, now I think of it, I really start digging for this proposed version.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2022, 07:39:22 am by grrgrrgrr »
Logged

spineflu

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1365
  • Shuffle iT Username: spineflu
  • Head Empty, Heart Worms, Can't Lose
  • Respect: +1353
    • View Profile
    • my instagram, where i paint things
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2022, 09:00:31 am »
0

Have Renaissance and Guilds been reprinted yet with the Merchant Guild, Patron and Coffers errata from earlier this year? I'm wondering if there's a printed version of these two sets with only those changes and without the newly changed Exploration, Innovation and overpay.
No, the first thing to get reprinted with the recent errata (not counting the 2E's) is Adventures. I don't know if it actually has been printed or not, but the files went to the printer months ago. Those other sets, the files have not gone to the printer.

this ties into a question that didn't get answered in the thread dz posted that linked to the shuffle.it forum's version of the errata, but on overpay cards, are they losing the little plus next to the cost?
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2022, 01:37:50 pm »
0

One idea: Original (or current) Donate, but "put any number of cards in the trash" instead of "trash any number of cards". Same difference as with putting cards into your discard pile vs. discarding them. Then nothing can trigger, I think.
We considered "it's not really trashing" but it's just so awful, is the problem. So awful.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2022, 01:43:10 pm »
+2

I think I can speak on behalf of a sizeable portion of the userbase when I say that it's good that you didn't go for this change. And honestly, it seems like the problem lies with Cargo Ship, namely that events in the cleanup can change whether CS needs to be discarded from play. This can be changed by adding the words "before Cleanup" in Cargo Ship's wording. Sure, it looses interaction with Improve, which is of course not ideal as they are in the same set but not terrible either.

EDIT: I actually think this is a really interesting change, but I don't see why you couldn't say "non-Duration cards you have in play", especially with the once-per-turn clause (and even without the restriction, 8D would make it a lot harder to create a loop). Yeah, now I think of it, I really start digging for this proposed version.
I am pretty sure the problem is with Donate, not Cargo Ship. Cards should be able to expect that nothing more of interest is happening in the turn once Clean-up hits. Duration cards by default demand this - they have to know if they're done. I guess we can argue, that the problem is Duration cards period; that they should have e.g. always stayed out one turn (with some cards then not getting made). But given that they get to care "are we done," and that the point we check is in Clean-up, well it shouldn't be that stuff can happen after that that makes a difference. Anything I'm willing to allow after discarding cards from play should also not be something that cards trigger off of.

For tracking, "non-duration" never actually goes the distance, since you can trash a Throne Room that played a Duration card. For loops, once-per-turn is obv. all you need, yes.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2022, 01:43:52 pm »
+2

Have Renaissance and Guilds been reprinted yet with the Merchant Guild, Patron and Coffers errata from earlier this year? I'm wondering if there's a printed version of these two sets with only those changes and without the newly changed Exploration, Innovation and overpay.
No, the first thing to get reprinted with the recent errata (not counting the 2E's) is Adventures. I don't know if it actually has been printed or not, but the files went to the printer months ago. Those other sets, the files have not gone to the printer.

this ties into a question that didn't get answered in the thread dz posted that linked to the shuffle.it forum's version of the errata, but on overpay cards, are they losing the little plus next to the cost?
No, cards are not losing the little + or the little *; the dominion.games version has simply never had those.
Logged

humcalc216

  • Salvager
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65
  • Shuffle iT Username: humcalc216
  • Respect: +114
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #85 on: July 02, 2022, 02:46:20 pm »
0

I guess we can argue, that the problem is Duration cards period; that they should have e.g. always stayed out one turn (with some cards then not getting made). But given that they get to care "are we done," and that the point we check is in Clean-up, well it shouldn't be that stuff can happen after that that makes a difference. Anything I'm willing to allow after discarding cards from play should also not be something that cards trigger off of.

For tracking, "non-duration" never actually goes the distance, since you can trash a Throne Room that played a Duration card. For loops, once-per-turn is obv. all you need, yes.

Why not have a rule that says something like, "If an effect would remove a Duration or a card tracking a Duration (such as a Throne or Command) from play before it's 'done,' that effect fails."? Obviously, there are edge cases, like Cargo Ship and Highwayman (which has an effect that discards itself).
Logged

dz

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 210
  • Shuffle iT Username: DZ
  • Respect: +345
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #86 on: July 02, 2022, 03:16:01 pm »
0

Once we get something that triggers when you put a card on top of your deck, we're in trouble.

That new Donate sounds sweet. I didn't think "Donate when you buy it" could work, but that wording nails it. And I am 100% against adding non-Duration to Donate, there's nothing wrong with current Bonfire.

Cargo Ship does have the problem of creating an "invisible" effect if you Improve it. Of the tracking issues in the game, that one isn't the worst though, since you still have the gained card set aside.

Why not have a rule that says something like, "If an effect would remove a Duration or a card tracking a Duration (such as a Throne or Command) from play before it's 'done,' that effect fails."? Obviously, there are edge cases, like Cargo Ship and Highwayman (which has an effect that discards itself).

This change has been suggested before, and it'd be ideal if that rule always existed. It also doesn't require any errata to Counterfeit etc because the rulebook handles it. Nowadays it's probably not happening.
Logged

J Reggie

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 844
  • Shuffle iT Username: J Reggie
  • Respect: +1492
    • View Profile
    • Jeff Rosenthal Music
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2022, 11:34:56 pm »
+3

I'm really fascinated by the ruling about cards referring to their pile instead of the supply. I'm wondering if it's paving the way for a mechanic involving kingdom card piles that aren't in the supply. Kind of like how Guilds got the Coffers change just before Renaissance came out.

grrgrrgrr

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 329
  • Respect: +422
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2022, 06:22:42 am »
+1

I am pretty sure the problem is with Donate, not Cargo Ship. Cards should be able to expect that nothing more of interest is happening in the turn once Clean-up hits. Duration cards by default demand this - they have to know if they're done. I guess we can argue, that the problem is Duration cards period; that they should have e.g. always stayed out one turn (with some cards then not getting made). But given that they get to care "are we done," and that the point we check is in Clean-up, well it shouldn't be that stuff can happen after that that makes a difference. Anything I'm willing to allow after discarding cards from play should also not be something that cards trigger off of.

For tracking, "non-duration" never actually goes the distance, since you can trash a Throne Room that played a Duration card. For loops, once-per-turn is obv. all you need, yes.

That makes a lot of sense. But if the Clean-up should be devoid of potential triggers, isn't Improve problematic as well (as they also "gain" something)? Or does Improve get a pass because it triggers at the start of Cleanup? In that case, what about the following Donate errata?

Quote
Donate (Event, 8D)
At the start of Clean-up, put your deck onto your discard pile. Then trash any number of cards from: your hand, you discard pile and cards you would discard from play.

And aren't Travelers under scrutiny as well? Or even Scheme/Herbalist/Way of the Frog?

About the last paragraph, has your team been thinking on whether this whole "TR stays aside to track Durations" stuff is still the way to go? I've been thinking about an other solution lately, namely to introduce Replay tokens. Every time you replay a card, you put a Replay token onto it. These tokens are purely for secretary purposes, and can be removed if one of the replays have no more unresolved effect (such as with Barge). TR itself will always be discarded from play on the turn it has been played.
This has some pitfalls, as these tokens have to be introduced somewhere and it also makes KC+Wharf even more ridiculous, but it eases up a lot of things. And it makes Citadel trackable.
Of course, your last paragraph would still apply because of Command cards that can mimic Durations.

Sorry if I'm suggesting a bit much lately; I just like to think about this kind of stuff. I'm still very impressed with how much you have done recently and I cannot wait to see what you have in store this fall!
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2528
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1642
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2022, 09:24:53 am »
+1

One idea: Original (or current) Donate, but "put any number of cards in the trash" instead of "trash any number of cards". Same difference as with putting cards into your discard pile vs. discarding them. Then nothing can trigger, I think.
We considered "it's not really trashing" but it's just so awful, is the problem. So awful.

I then can't help but wonder what makes it okay for discarding on Chancellor etc?

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2022, 12:07:54 pm »
0

One idea: Original (or current) Donate, but "put any number of cards in the trash" instead of "trash any number of cards". Same difference as with putting cards into your discard pile vs. discarding them. Then nothing can trigger, I think.
We considered "it's not really trashing" but it's just so awful, is the problem. So awful.

I then can't help but wonder what makes it okay for discarding on Chancellor etc?
That's bad too, I don't deny it.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2022, 12:14:55 pm »
+2

That makes a lot of sense. But if the Clean-up should be devoid of potential triggers, isn't Improve problematic as well (as they also "gain" something)? Or does Improve get a pass because it triggers at the start of Cleanup? In that case, what about the following Donate errata?

Quote
Donate (Event, 8D)
At the start of Clean-up, put your deck onto your discard pile. Then trash any number of cards from: your hand, you discard pile and cards you would discard from play.
Yes Improve is fine because it's before you discard anything. It's discarding stuff from play that means we have to be done doing other things.

Doing Improve's trick lets Donate preserve a little more functionality; I'm not sure it's worth it. It's tricky to be very clear that we're giving you the option to trash a subset of the cards you'd discard from play, and not requiring you to trash all of them.

Donate: Event, 8D
Once per turn: Put your deck into your discard pile. Trash any number of cards from among: your discard pile; your hand; and the cards you'd discard from play this turn.

But even if it's clear, Bonfire's approach is so much simpler. And you can still trash everything. You just don't get to play that Cursed Gold.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2022, 12:22:17 pm »
+2

Why not have a rule that says something like, "If an effect would remove a Duration or a card tracking a Duration (such as a Throne or Command) from play before it's 'done,' that effect fails."? Obviously, there are edge cases, like Cargo Ship and Highwayman (which has an effect that discards itself).
In the alternate reality where I shake things up more,  Thrones would have a type that cards could refer to. That would be useful other ways too. I don't know if I'd want Durations to survive things that trash cards, rather than just not letting you use them in those situations. It's all work to not put in now though.

This kind of change seems really hard for people to learn, until it's everywhere. If you buy a copy of Adventures and Port says "when gain" on it, well that's what it says, no problem. If the Duration rules say "oops Duration rules are different now," well it's so likely that you never even see that; why are you reading those rules, you know about Durations already. And then not putting non-Duration somewhere means you will think it works with Durations.

I changed Duration rules at one point; Thrones used to stay out if you e.g. Throned a Throne on a Duration; now only the card playing the Duration stays out. This is simpler to explain. And I mean, if you never got the memo, it's not so bad.

Anyway, I could have done Durations better (and Reactions); changing that feels beyond the scope at this point.
Logged

ems57fcva

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2022, 04:14:16 pm »
0

I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

Throne Rooms already work that way, and Counterfeit is indeed a Throne Room. The card text would have to be changed to specifically address Durations though, somehow saying that the trashing happens after any future effects. Sounds messy. The only alternative I can think of is "the next time you discard that Treasure from play, trash it." Not exactly better than the current fix.
You have missed my point.  Counterfeit reads "... you may play a Treasure from your hand twice.  If you do, trash that Treasure".  So what is it to play a card?  Is it putting it into play and resolving it for that turn?  Or is it fulfilling all of the instructions on the card (which requires multiple turns for Durations)? 

It appears that the first interpretation is being used for Durations, which means that a Treasure-Duration is to be trashed during the Buy phase of the turn that it is put into play.  The loss of the card before its Duration effect is done is what is causing problems.

What I am calling for is to change the interpretation of playing a Duration to saying that the playing of the Duration is not done until all of its instructions are completed.  No change to the wording of Counterfeit is needed in this case.  Instead, if you have used Counterfeit on an Astrolabe, you get $2 and +2 Buy now, $2 and +2 Buy at the start of the next turn, and then (as part of the start of the next turn) trash the Astrolabe.  (I would wait until the Buy phase of the following turn to do the actual trashing for tracking purposes.  This also leads me to wonder if a Treasure-Duration should read "now and at the start of the Buy phase of your next turn".)  As with Throne Room, the Counterfeit would stay in play to track the Duration being played twice and to also track the fact that the card is to be trashed once it has become fully played.

This change would also help with Procession (as it was originally worded).  The trashing of the Duration and the obtaining of a more valuable card would wait until the Duration was fully played.
Logged

ems57fcva

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2022, 05:04:41 pm »
0

Not a fan of annihilating of when-buy triggers. Learning the difference between gain an buy is not difficult and it seems like the new rules and wordings are awkward and weird.
The difference is subtle, with the big issue being to remember that buying comes before gaining.  I play with a girlfiriend who is often caught off-guard by distinctions like that.

I for one wonder if "when you buy this" is not going to eventually return as a short way of saying "when you gain this, if you bought it".  I see treating buying as a form of gaining (being done in exchange for coin) as the upshot of this.  But that is different than the way that DXV currently sees the relationship between buying and gaining.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2528
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1642
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2022, 06:53:51 am »
+2

I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

Throne Rooms already work that way, and Counterfeit is indeed a Throne Room. The card text would have to be changed to specifically address Durations though, somehow saying that the trashing happens after any future effects. Sounds messy. The only alternative I can think of is "the next time you discard that Treasure from play, trash it." Not exactly better than the current fix.
You have missed my point.  Counterfeit reads "... you may play a Treasure from your hand twice.  If you do, trash that Treasure".  So what is it to play a card?  Is it putting it into play and resolving it for that turn?  Or is it fulfilling all of the instructions on the card (which requires multiple turns for Durations)? 

It appears that the first interpretation is being used for Durations, which means that a Treasure-Duration is to be trashed during the Buy phase of the turn that it is put into play.  The loss of the card before its Duration effect is done is what is causing problems.

What I am calling for is to change the interpretation of playing a Duration to saying that the playing of the Duration is not done until all of its instructions are completed.  No change to the wording of Counterfeit is needed in this case.  Instead, if you have used Counterfeit on an Astrolabe, you get $2 and +2 Buy now, $2 and +2 Buy at the start of the next turn, and then (as part of the start of the next turn) trash the Astrolabe.  (I would wait until the Buy phase of the following turn to do the actual trashing for tracking purposes.  This also leads me to wonder if a Treasure-Duration should read "now and at the start of the Buy phase of your next turn".)  As with Throne Room, the Counterfeit would stay in play to track the Duration being played twice and to also track the fact that the card is to be trashed once it has become fully played.

This change would also help with Procession (as it was originally worded).  The trashing of the Duration and the obtaining of a more valuable card would wait until the Duration was fully played.

There are several problems with this suggestion.

We resolve an ability by following each instruction in order from top to bottom. Some instructions tell us to do something later; these set up future effects. Your suggestion entails stopping after such an instruction and not continuing resolving the ability until all the future effects are resolved. Throne Room has two instructions: Play a an Action card from your hand, and play it again. (These are two separate effects that happen after each other.)

Let's take a non-Duration card, Merchant. If we Throne Room Merchant, we play it once, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and setting up a future effect when Silver is played for the first time later. But that future effect hasn't happened yet, so we are not done playing Merchant. That means we don't continue to the next instruction on Throne Room yet. When we play a Silver, Merchant is done, so now we play it again, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and failing to set up a future effect (since the first Silver has already been played). Obviously this is not how Merchant should work.

Maybe your idea was that this would be a special rule for Durations, but the problem is the same. If we Counterfeit Astrolabe, we only play Astrolabe once this turn, because we're not done playing it the first time until the start of our next turn. At that point, after getting +$1 and +1 Buy for the next-turn effect, we play it again, getting +$1 and +1 Buy and setting up an effect for next turn, making Counterfeit and Astrolabe stay in play one turn more. At the beginning of that turn, after getting the next-turn effect again, we trash the Astrolabe.

What if we play Conclave on Wharf? Since Wharf is not done being played until the beginning of next turn, that's when we get the +1 Action from Conclave. But Conclave doesn't even stay in play to remind us of this.

ems57fcva

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2022, 01:22:33 pm »
0

I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

Throne Rooms already work that way, and Counterfeit is indeed a Throne Room. The card text would have to be changed to specifically address Durations though, somehow saying that the trashing happens after any future effects. Sounds messy. The only alternative I can think of is "the next time you discard that Treasure from play, trash it." Not exactly better than the current fix.
You have missed my point.  Counterfeit reads "... you may play a Treasure from your hand twice.  If you do, trash that Treasure".  So what is it to play a card?  Is it putting it into play and resolving it for that turn?  Or is it fulfilling all of the instructions on the card (which requires multiple turns for Durations)? 

It appears that the first interpretation is being used for Durations, which means that a Treasure-Duration is to be trashed during the Buy phase of the turn that it is put into play.  The loss of the card before its Duration effect is done is what is causing problems.

What I am calling for is to change the interpretation of playing a Duration to saying that the playing of the Duration is not done until all of its instructions are completed.  No change to the wording of Counterfeit is needed in this case.  Instead, if you have used Counterfeit on an Astrolabe, you get $2 and +2 Buy now, $2 and +2 Buy at the start of the next turn, and then (as part of the start of the next turn) trash the Astrolabe.  (I would wait until the Buy phase of the following turn to do the actual trashing for tracking purposes.  This also leads me to wonder if a Treasure-Duration should read "now and at the start of the Buy phase of your next turn".)  As with Throne Room, the Counterfeit would stay in play to track the Duration being played twice and to also track the fact that the card is to be trashed once it has become fully played.

This change would also help with Procession (as it was originally worded).  The trashing of the Duration and the obtaining of a more valuable card would wait until the Duration was fully played.

There are several problems with this suggestion.

We resolve an ability by following each instruction in order from top to bottom. Some instructions tell us to do something later; these set up future effects. Your suggestion entails stopping after such an instruction and not continuing resolving the ability until all the future effects are resolved. Throne Room has two instructions: Play a an Action card from your hand, and play it again. (These are two separate effects that happen after each other.)

Let's take a non-Duration card, Merchant. If we Throne Room Merchant, we play it once, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and setting up a future effect when Silver is played for the first time later. But that future effect hasn't happened yet, so we are not done playing Merchant. That means we don't continue to the next instruction on Throne Room yet. When we play a Silver, Merchant is done, so now we play it again, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and failing to set up a future effect (since the first Silver has already been played). Obviously this is not how Merchant should work.

Maybe your idea was that this would be a special rule for Durations, but the problem is the same. If we Counterfeit Astrolabe, we only play Astrolabe once this turn, because we're not done playing it the first time until the start of our next turn. At that point, after getting +$1 and +1 Buy for the next-turn effect, we play it again, getting +$1 and +1 Buy and setting up an effect for next turn, making Counterfeit and Astrolabe stay in play one turn more. At the beginning of that turn, after getting the next-turn effect again, we trash the Astrolabe.

What if we play Conclave on Wharf? Since Wharf is not done being played until the beginning of next turn, that's when we get the +1 Action from Conclave. But Conclave doesn't even stay in play to remind us of this.
The idea that the Duration effects in the next turn are a "future effect" is interesting.  And that is the heart of the issue:  Whether the playing of a Duration from your hand ends in the current turn or a future turn.  I am proposing that a Duration be looked upon as a card that is resolved multiple times but is only played once.  Resolving a card after setting up a future effect that happens in that turn is fine.  But if Merchant gave the play-a-Silver bonus in the next turn, it would then be a Duration with an effect that would need to be resolved in the next turn (if only by being set up at the start of that turn).  Then my suggestion would kick in.

As for Conclave:  I believe that Conclave does stay in play if a Duration is played by it (as opposed to by the Action it gives).  That my suggestion would defer the awarding of the +1 action until a future turn is an interesting side effect.
Logged

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1325
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1384
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2022, 03:12:44 pm »
0

Conclave doesn't stay in play if a Duration is played by it, no. Cards only stay in play with the Durations they played if either (a) they replayed them (using the keyword "replay") or (b) they played them more than once.
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2528
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1642
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #98 on: July 05, 2022, 02:18:33 am »
+1

The idea that the Duration effects in the next turn are a "future effect" is interesting.  And that is the heart of the issue:  Whether the playing of a Duration from your hand ends in the current turn or a future turn.  I am proposing that a Duration be looked upon as a card that is resolved multiple times but is only played once.  Resolving a card after setting up a future effect that happens in that turn is fine.  But if Merchant gave the play-a-Silver bonus in the next turn, it would then be a Duration with an effect that would need to be resolved in the next turn (if only by being set up at the start of that turn).  Then my suggestion would kick in.

As for Conclave:  I believe that Conclave does stay in play if a Duration is played by it (as opposed to by the Action it gives).  That my suggestion would defer the awarding of the +1 action until a future turn is an interesting side effect.

1) I guess you missed the other side effect, that Throne Room + Duration would defer the second play until next turn and make the Duration stay in play one extra turn.
2) Conclave, Herald, Golem, Vassal, Elder, etc. do not stay in play when playing a Duration.
3) Having the definition of resolving a card be different for Durations and non-Durations is just a horrible idea.

grrgrrgrr

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 329
  • Respect: +422
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #99 on: July 05, 2022, 02:28:49 am »
+1

I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

Throne Rooms already work that way, and Counterfeit is indeed a Throne Room. The card text would have to be changed to specifically address Durations though, somehow saying that the trashing happens after any future effects. Sounds messy. The only alternative I can think of is "the next time you discard that Treasure from play, trash it." Not exactly better than the current fix.
You have missed my point.  Counterfeit reads "... you may play a Treasure from your hand twice.  If you do, trash that Treasure".  So what is it to play a card?  Is it putting it into play and resolving it for that turn?  Or is it fulfilling all of the instructions on the card (which requires multiple turns for Durations)? 

It appears that the first interpretation is being used for Durations, which means that a Treasure-Duration is to be trashed during the Buy phase of the turn that it is put into play.  The loss of the card before its Duration effect is done is what is causing problems.

What I am calling for is to change the interpretation of playing a Duration to saying that the playing of the Duration is not done until all of its instructions are completed.  No change to the wording of Counterfeit is needed in this case.  Instead, if you have used Counterfeit on an Astrolabe, you get $2 and +2 Buy now, $2 and +2 Buy at the start of the next turn, and then (as part of the start of the next turn) trash the Astrolabe.  (I would wait until the Buy phase of the following turn to do the actual trashing for tracking purposes.  This also leads me to wonder if a Treasure-Duration should read "now and at the start of the Buy phase of your next turn".)  As with Throne Room, the Counterfeit would stay in play to track the Duration being played twice and to also track the fact that the card is to be trashed once it has become fully played.

This change would also help with Procession (as it was originally worded).  The trashing of the Duration and the obtaining of a more valuable card would wait until the Duration was fully played.

There are several problems with this suggestion.

We resolve an ability by following each instruction in order from top to bottom. Some instructions tell us to do something later; these set up future effects. Your suggestion entails stopping after such an instruction and not continuing resolving the ability until all the future effects are resolved. Throne Room has two instructions: Play a an Action card from your hand, and play it again. (These are two separate effects that happen after each other.)

Let's take a non-Duration card, Merchant. If we Throne Room Merchant, we play it once, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and setting up a future effect when Silver is played for the first time later. But that future effect hasn't happened yet, so we are not done playing Merchant. That means we don't continue to the next instruction on Throne Room yet. When we play a Silver, Merchant is done, so now we play it again, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and failing to set up a future effect (since the first Silver has already been played). Obviously this is not how Merchant should work.

Maybe your idea was that this would be a special rule for Durations, but the problem is the same. If we Counterfeit Astrolabe, we only play Astrolabe once this turn, because we're not done playing it the first time until the start of our next turn. At that point, after getting +$1 and +1 Buy for the next-turn effect, we play it again, getting +$1 and +1 Buy and setting up an effect for next turn, making Counterfeit and Astrolabe stay in play one turn more. At the beginning of that turn, after getting the next-turn effect again, we trash the Astrolabe.

What if we play Conclave on Wharf? Since Wharf is not done being played until the beginning of next turn, that's when we get the +1 Action from Conclave. But Conclave doesn't even stay in play to remind us of this.
The idea that the Duration effects in the next turn are a "future effect" is interesting.  And that is the heart of the issue:  Whether the playing of a Duration from your hand ends in the current turn or a future turn.  I am proposing that a Duration be looked upon as a card that is resolved multiple times but is only played once.  Resolving a card after setting up a future effect that happens in that turn is fine.  But if Merchant gave the play-a-Silver bonus in the next turn, it would then be a Duration with an effect that would need to be resolved in the next turn (if only by being set up at the start of that turn).  Then my suggestion would kick in.

As for Conclave:  I believe that Conclave does stay in play if a Duration is played by it (as opposed to by the Action it gives).  That my suggestion would defer the awarding of the +1 action until a future turn is an interesting side effect.

I think you miss something import with actions in general. Effects can be decided into two categories: current effects and future effects. Current effects are effects you get immediately when playing the card. Future effects are effects that happen when a condition is fulfilled or when you enter a phase. When you are done playing a card, you have resolved the current effects, not (necessarily) the future ones.

From this regard, Durations aren't (nor should they be) different from ordinary cards. They just happen to have future effects that happen during a later turn. And the only difference they have is that they stay aside, because cards shouldn't be discarded from play before their future effects are resolved.

When you trash a card from play with Procession or Counterfeit, the current effects have been resolved (twice). Future effects haven't; and you need to remember the presence of those. 
Logged

mxdata

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1199
  • Respect: +1351
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #100 on: July 05, 2022, 07:20:33 pm »
+4

Not a fan of annihilating of when-buy triggers. Learning the difference between gain an buy is not difficult and it seems like the new rules and wordings are awkward and weird.
The difference is subtle, with the big issue being to remember that buying comes before gaining.  I play with a girlfiriend who is often caught off-guard by distinctions like that.

I for one wonder if "when you buy this" is not going to eventually return as a short way of saying "when you gain this, if you bought it".  I see treating buying as a form of gaining (being done in exchange for coin) as the upshot of this.  But that is different than the way that DXV currently sees the relationship between buying and gaining.

Yeah, I think the most logical solution would've been to simply define "buy" as "gain using money", thus making when-gain and when-buy simultaneous, and eliminating the need for such convoluted wording. And it feels far more intuitive to me than the current system where you buy and then you gain
Logged
They/them

ems57fcva

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #101 on: July 06, 2022, 11:23:49 pm »
0

I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

Throne Rooms already work that way, and Counterfeit is indeed a Throne Room. The card text would have to be changed to specifically address Durations though, somehow saying that the trashing happens after any future effects. Sounds messy. The only alternative I can think of is "the next time you discard that Treasure from play, trash it." Not exactly better than the current fix.
You have missed my point.  Counterfeit reads "... you may play a Treasure from your hand twice.  If you do, trash that Treasure".  So what is it to play a card?  Is it putting it into play and resolving it for that turn?  Or is it fulfilling all of the instructions on the card (which requires multiple turns for Durations)? 

It appears that the first interpretation is being used for Durations, which means that a Treasure-Duration is to be trashed during the Buy phase of the turn that it is put into play.  The loss of the card before its Duration effect is done is what is causing problems.

What I am calling for is to change the interpretation of playing a Duration to saying that the playing of the Duration is not done until all of its instructions are completed.  No change to the wording of Counterfeit is needed in this case.  Instead, if you have used Counterfeit on an Astrolabe, you get $2 and +2 Buy now, $2 and +2 Buy at the start of the next turn, and then (as part of the start of the next turn) trash the Astrolabe.  (I would wait until the Buy phase of the following turn to do the actual trashing for tracking purposes.  This also leads me to wonder if a Treasure-Duration should read "now and at the start of the Buy phase of your next turn".)  As with Throne Room, the Counterfeit would stay in play to track the Duration being played twice and to also track the fact that the card is to be trashed once it has become fully played.

This change would also help with Procession (as it was originally worded).  The trashing of the Duration and the obtaining of a more valuable card would wait until the Duration was fully played.

There are several problems with this suggestion.

We resolve an ability by following each instruction in order from top to bottom. Some instructions tell us to do something later; these set up future effects. Your suggestion entails stopping after such an instruction and not continuing resolving the ability until all the future effects are resolved. Throne Room has two instructions: Play a an Action card from your hand, and play it again. (These are two separate effects that happen after each other.)

Let's take a non-Duration card, Merchant. If we Throne Room Merchant, we play it once, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and setting up a future effect when Silver is played for the first time later. But that future effect hasn't happened yet, so we are not done playing Merchant. That means we don't continue to the next instruction on Throne Room yet. When we play a Silver, Merchant is done, so now we play it again, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and failing to set up a future effect (since the first Silver has already been played). Obviously this is not how Merchant should work.

Maybe your idea was that this would be a special rule for Durations, but the problem is the same. If we Counterfeit Astrolabe, we only play Astrolabe once this turn, because we're not done playing it the first time until the start of our next turn. At that point, after getting +$1 and +1 Buy for the next-turn effect, we play it again, getting +$1 and +1 Buy and setting up an effect for next turn, making Counterfeit and Astrolabe stay in play one turn more. At the beginning of that turn, after getting the next-turn effect again, we trash the Astrolabe.

What if we play Conclave on Wharf? Since Wharf is not done being played until the beginning of next turn, that's when we get the +1 Action from Conclave. But Conclave doesn't even stay in play to remind us of this.
The idea that the Duration effects in the next turn are a "future effect" is interesting.  And that is the heart of the issue:  Whether the playing of a Duration from your hand ends in the current turn or a future turn.  I am proposing that a Duration be looked upon as a card that is resolved multiple times but is only played once.  Resolving a card after setting up a future effect that happens in that turn is fine.  But if Merchant gave the play-a-Silver bonus in the next turn, it would then be a Duration with an effect that would need to be resolved in the next turn (if only by being set up at the start of that turn).  Then my suggestion would kick in.

As for Conclave:  I believe that Conclave does stay in play if a Duration is played by it (as opposed to by the Action it gives).  That my suggestion would defer the awarding of the +1 action until a future turn is an interesting side effect.

I think you miss something import with actions in general. Effects can be decided into two categories: current effects and future effects. Current effects are effects you get immediately when playing the card. Future effects are effects that happen when a condition is fulfilled or when you enter a phase. When you are done playing a card, you have resolved the current effects, not (necessarily) the future ones.

From this regard, Durations aren't (nor should they be) different from ordinary cards. They just happen to have future effects that happen during a later turn. And the only difference they have is that they stay aside, because cards shouldn't be discarded from play before their future effects are resolved.

When you trash a card from play with Procession or Counterfeit, the current effects have been resolved (twice). Future effects haven't; and you need to remember the presence of those.
All that you are saying is that my proposal is different from the way Durations are currently treated.  That is true.  Treating a Duration as a single play that is resolved in multiple turns is different, but it has its advantages:
  • It does not change how a Duration behaves on its own.
  • When being Thoned, you still do as much as you can in the current turn before moving on to other actions.
  • It makes Durations usable in cards like Procession because you are no longer trashing the Duration before you finish playing it.
  • There are grounds for ruing that when using a Way on a Duration that all of the Duration's effects are replaced including those of any future turn; and that if the Way is not used when the Duration is first played that the substitution cannot occur for its abilities in later turns.  This would remove the problems with the Ways of the Butterfly, Horse, and Turtle.
This is a significant shift in perception.  I realize that.  I also understand that shifting a foundational view is not trivially done.  But I am a software engineer who has often improved a program by making foundational changes:  They are not easy to do, but when done in the right time and way the benefits far exceed the costs.
Logged

King Leon

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 478
  • Respect: +406
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2022, 04:57:56 pm »
+2

Will there be an easy possibility to fix existing cards which got major changes, but do not require a full reprint, for example stickers to correct the cards?
For example, Farmlands has a completely new effect (on-gain instead of on-buy and not gaining Farmlands) and the new Command type, which has been added to a few cards, also affects Courtier.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #103 on: July 13, 2022, 11:06:31 am »
0

Will there be an easy possibility to fix existing cards which got major changes, but do not require a full reprint, for example stickers to correct the cards?
For example, Farmlands has a completely new effect (on-gain instead of on-buy and not gaining Farmlands) and the new Command type, which has been added to a few cards, also affects Courtier.
There are no plans for stickers or anything like that.
Logged

kieranmillar

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 152
  • Shuffle iT Username: kieranmillar
  • Respect: +355
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2022, 05:00:40 pm »
+5

Just so all the errata is collected in one place, here's a cross-post:
Incidentally! Basilica and Colonnade are both getting "in your Buy phase" added. I tried for the simplest versions of the cards, and let them be more different to get there, but a bunch of people complained, and while they don't seem super reasonable to me, them being unhappy with this change is real, and the intention was to fix cards not make them as if new cards, and "in your Buy phase" is not the mess that "that you bought" is.

And! Donate will somehow get more different at the same time, it will trigger at the start of your next turn, that's right. This has played great. It's a little weird since you're not used to it, but is as close as possible to the original while getting rid of rules problems. Yes "first" means before other start-of-turn stuff. And we can cite how e.g. it means you're immune to Militia for a turn. But it's very close to the original. It even gets rid of some unintentional changes the other versions had, like being able to trash everything with Tomb on your last turn.

Donate: Event, 8D
At the start of your next turn, first, put your deck and discard pile into your hand, trash any number of cards from it, then shuffle the rest into your deck and draw 5 cards.

Basilica: Landmark
When you gain a card in your Buy phase, if you have $2 or more, take 2VP from here.
----------
Setup: Put 6VP here per player.

Colonnade: Landmark
When you gain an Action card in your Buy phase, if you have a copy of it in play, take 2VP from here.
----------
Setup: Put 6VP here per player.

And these changes will appear in the next release of the TGG version, and I mean whenever Stef puts them in for dominion.games.
Logged

arcee

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 98
  • Shuffle iT Username: rchandra
  • Respect: +56
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #105 on: July 15, 2022, 10:42:21 am »
+1

Great to see the Basilica/Colonnade fixes.  The in-between versions seemed unfun.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9707
  • Respect: +10765
    • View Profile
Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #106 on: July 19, 2022, 01:47:36 pm »
+3

Me, holding my giant King's Court, Witch, and Cultist mega-combo hand that will give my opponent 10 Curses and 10 Ruins on my turn, waiting for him to finish his turn.

My opponent, buying new Donate on his turn.

Me, releasing that new Donate wording isn't really relevant here, with old Donate my opponent would have simply bought Donate the turn after I played my combo instead of the turn before.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 5 [All]
 

Page created in 0.132 seconds with 20 queries.