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Author Topic: 2022 Additional Errata  (Read 14317 times)

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mxdata

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #100 on: July 05, 2022, 07:20:33 pm »
+4

Not a fan of annihilating of when-buy triggers. Learning the difference between gain an buy is not difficult and it seems like the new rules and wordings are awkward and weird.
The difference is subtle, with the big issue being to remember that buying comes before gaining.  I play with a girlfiriend who is often caught off-guard by distinctions like that.

I for one wonder if "when you buy this" is not going to eventually return as a short way of saying "when you gain this, if you bought it".  I see treating buying as a form of gaining (being done in exchange for coin) as the upshot of this.  But that is different than the way that DXV currently sees the relationship between buying and gaining.

Yeah, I think the most logical solution would've been to simply define "buy" as "gain using money", thus making when-gain and when-buy simultaneous, and eliminating the need for such convoluted wording. And it feels far more intuitive to me than the current system where you buy and then you gain
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ems57fcva

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #101 on: July 06, 2022, 11:23:49 pm »
0

I am with you on this, somewhat.  For Counterfeit, I see nothing wrong with the playing of a Duration multiple times extending to the final resolution of the longest lasting Duration play.  In that case, the Counterfeit itself stays in play, and trashes the card when the Duration effect ends. Think of it as a Throne Room (for Treasures) with added instructions to be done once the throning is completed. Rebuild could also work in this way.

Throne Rooms already work that way, and Counterfeit is indeed a Throne Room. The card text would have to be changed to specifically address Durations though, somehow saying that the trashing happens after any future effects. Sounds messy. The only alternative I can think of is "the next time you discard that Treasure from play, trash it." Not exactly better than the current fix.
You have missed my point.  Counterfeit reads "... you may play a Treasure from your hand twice.  If you do, trash that Treasure".  So what is it to play a card?  Is it putting it into play and resolving it for that turn?  Or is it fulfilling all of the instructions on the card (which requires multiple turns for Durations)? 

It appears that the first interpretation is being used for Durations, which means that a Treasure-Duration is to be trashed during the Buy phase of the turn that it is put into play.  The loss of the card before its Duration effect is done is what is causing problems.

What I am calling for is to change the interpretation of playing a Duration to saying that the playing of the Duration is not done until all of its instructions are completed.  No change to the wording of Counterfeit is needed in this case.  Instead, if you have used Counterfeit on an Astrolabe, you get $2 and +2 Buy now, $2 and +2 Buy at the start of the next turn, and then (as part of the start of the next turn) trash the Astrolabe.  (I would wait until the Buy phase of the following turn to do the actual trashing for tracking purposes.  This also leads me to wonder if a Treasure-Duration should read "now and at the start of the Buy phase of your next turn".)  As with Throne Room, the Counterfeit would stay in play to track the Duration being played twice and to also track the fact that the card is to be trashed once it has become fully played.

This change would also help with Procession (as it was originally worded).  The trashing of the Duration and the obtaining of a more valuable card would wait until the Duration was fully played.

There are several problems with this suggestion.

We resolve an ability by following each instruction in order from top to bottom. Some instructions tell us to do something later; these set up future effects. Your suggestion entails stopping after such an instruction and not continuing resolving the ability until all the future effects are resolved. Throne Room has two instructions: Play a an Action card from your hand, and play it again. (These are two separate effects that happen after each other.)

Let's take a non-Duration card, Merchant. If we Throne Room Merchant, we play it once, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and setting up a future effect when Silver is played for the first time later. But that future effect hasn't happened yet, so we are not done playing Merchant. That means we don't continue to the next instruction on Throne Room yet. When we play a Silver, Merchant is done, so now we play it again, getting +1 Action and +1 Card, and failing to set up a future effect (since the first Silver has already been played). Obviously this is not how Merchant should work.

Maybe your idea was that this would be a special rule for Durations, but the problem is the same. If we Counterfeit Astrolabe, we only play Astrolabe once this turn, because we're not done playing it the first time until the start of our next turn. At that point, after getting +$1 and +1 Buy for the next-turn effect, we play it again, getting +$1 and +1 Buy and setting up an effect for next turn, making Counterfeit and Astrolabe stay in play one turn more. At the beginning of that turn, after getting the next-turn effect again, we trash the Astrolabe.

What if we play Conclave on Wharf? Since Wharf is not done being played until the beginning of next turn, that's when we get the +1 Action from Conclave. But Conclave doesn't even stay in play to remind us of this.
The idea that the Duration effects in the next turn are a "future effect" is interesting.  And that is the heart of the issue:  Whether the playing of a Duration from your hand ends in the current turn or a future turn.  I am proposing that a Duration be looked upon as a card that is resolved multiple times but is only played once.  Resolving a card after setting up a future effect that happens in that turn is fine.  But if Merchant gave the play-a-Silver bonus in the next turn, it would then be a Duration with an effect that would need to be resolved in the next turn (if only by being set up at the start of that turn).  Then my suggestion would kick in.

As for Conclave:  I believe that Conclave does stay in play if a Duration is played by it (as opposed to by the Action it gives).  That my suggestion would defer the awarding of the +1 action until a future turn is an interesting side effect.

I think you miss something import with actions in general. Effects can be decided into two categories: current effects and future effects. Current effects are effects you get immediately when playing the card. Future effects are effects that happen when a condition is fulfilled or when you enter a phase. When you are done playing a card, you have resolved the current effects, not (necessarily) the future ones.

From this regard, Durations aren't (nor should they be) different from ordinary cards. They just happen to have future effects that happen during a later turn. And the only difference they have is that they stay aside, because cards shouldn't be discarded from play before their future effects are resolved.

When you trash a card from play with Procession or Counterfeit, the current effects have been resolved (twice). Future effects haven't; and you need to remember the presence of those.
All that you are saying is that my proposal is different from the way Durations are currently treated.  That is true.  Treating a Duration as a single play that is resolved in multiple turns is different, but it has its advantages:
  • It does not change how a Duration behaves on its own.
  • When being Thoned, you still do as much as you can in the current turn before moving on to other actions.
  • It makes Durations usable in cards like Procession because you are no longer trashing the Duration before you finish playing it.
  • There are grounds for ruing that when using a Way on a Duration that all of the Duration's effects are replaced including those of any future turn; and that if the Way is not used when the Duration is first played that the substitution cannot occur for its abilities in later turns.  This would remove the problems with the Ways of the Butterfly, Horse, and Turtle.
This is a significant shift in perception.  I realize that.  I also understand that shifting a foundational view is not trivially done.  But I am a software engineer who has often improved a program by making foundational changes:  They are not easy to do, but when done in the right time and way the benefits far exceed the costs.
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King Leon

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2022, 04:57:56 pm »
+2

Will there be an easy possibility to fix existing cards which got major changes, but do not require a full reprint, for example stickers to correct the cards?
For example, Farmlands has a completely new effect (on-gain instead of on-buy and not gaining Farmlands) and the new Command type, which has been added to a few cards, also affects Courtier.
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Donald X.

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #103 on: July 13, 2022, 11:06:31 am »
0

Will there be an easy possibility to fix existing cards which got major changes, but do not require a full reprint, for example stickers to correct the cards?
For example, Farmlands has a completely new effect (on-gain instead of on-buy and not gaining Farmlands) and the new Command type, which has been added to a few cards, also affects Courtier.
There are no plans for stickers or anything like that.
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kieranmillar

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2022, 05:00:40 pm »
+5

Just so all the errata is collected in one place, here's a cross-post:
Incidentally! Basilica and Colonnade are both getting "in your Buy phase" added. I tried for the simplest versions of the cards, and let them be more different to get there, but a bunch of people complained, and while they don't seem super reasonable to me, them being unhappy with this change is real, and the intention was to fix cards not make them as if new cards, and "in your Buy phase" is not the mess that "that you bought" is.

And! Donate will somehow get more different at the same time, it will trigger at the start of your next turn, that's right. This has played great. It's a little weird since you're not used to it, but is as close as possible to the original while getting rid of rules problems. Yes "first" means before other start-of-turn stuff. And we can cite how e.g. it means you're immune to Militia for a turn. But it's very close to the original. It even gets rid of some unintentional changes the other versions had, like being able to trash everything with Tomb on your last turn.

Donate: Event, 8D
At the start of your next turn, first, put your deck and discard pile into your hand, trash any number of cards from it, then shuffle the rest into your deck and draw 5 cards.

Basilica: Landmark
When you gain a card in your Buy phase, if you have $2 or more, take 2VP from here.
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Setup: Put 6VP here per player.

Colonnade: Landmark
When you gain an Action card in your Buy phase, if you have a copy of it in play, take 2VP from here.
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Setup: Put 6VP here per player.

And these changes will appear in the next release of the TGG version, and I mean whenever Stef puts them in for dominion.games.
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arcee

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #105 on: July 15, 2022, 10:42:21 am »
+1

Great to see the Basilica/Colonnade fixes.  The in-between versions seemed unfun.
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GendoIkari

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #106 on: July 19, 2022, 01:47:36 pm »
+3

Me, holding my giant King's Court, Witch, and Cultist mega-combo hand that will give my opponent 10 Curses and 10 Ruins on my turn, waiting for him to finish his turn.

My opponent, buying new Donate on his turn.

Me, releasing that new Donate wording isn't really relevant here, with old Donate my opponent would have simply bought Donate the turn after I played my combo instead of the turn before.
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