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[AJD]

Play card X, buy Bonfire, trash card X from play, buy Gamble, play Graverobber, regain card X from trash, buy Gamble, replay card X... I haven't thought it through but I bet this can probably turn into an infinite loop.

[NoMoreFun]

Trashing Throne Room variants and Command cards from play creates the same tracking issues as with Durations? Is that the issue?

I just think those situations are quite rare, and in fixing it, much more common use cases like Ruins, Rats, Catacombs, early game cards (Chapel) are lost.

What about "This turn, during clean-up, you may trash up to 2 cards when you discard them from play"?

[joefarebrother]

is it really a problem for the game to have like a 4 card infinite loop anyway?

[vidicate]

*idly wonders what the other mysterious problem was*

LOL this makes me think of when an exploit gets fixed in an online multiplayer game, but when the update is announced they of course don’t want to make the exploit/cheat public.
Of course that’s not what’s happening here; it’s staying a mystery for now because it’s already written up in tomorrow’s preview.

[LastFootnote]

*idly wonders what the other mysterious problem was*

I also don’t remember. I’m just taking his word for it.

[Ethan]

I hate the new on-buy wording.
If anyone get confused by the old wording, he just need someone to remind him, and he will learn the difference from then on.

[navical]

Trashing arbitrary cards from play breaks the game. That's why I changed it; to not break the game. Going into play uses up a card for the turn; taking it out of play lets you reuse it and generate loops.

In this particular case I could fix this while having almost no effect on the card's gameplay; you were already trashing Coppers with it.

I assume it's this.

[Holger]

Trashing arbitrary cards from play breaks the game. That's why I changed it; to not break the game. Going into play uses up a card for the turn; taking it out of play lets you reuse it and generate loops.

In this particular case I could fix this while having almost no effect on the card's gameplay; you were already trashing Coppers with it.

I assume it's this.

Probably, though there's still other cards that can trash "arbitrary" cards from play, e.g. Procession for all Action cards and Counterfeit for all Treasures. (But those two stay in play themselves, making infinite loops harder to do.)

However, I would be surprised if those infinite loops with Bonfire came up much in real (full random) games, as they require quite specific multi-card combos. I expect they would be less common than a Stampede/Collection stalemate.

But maybe there would have been a broken Bonfire combo with a card from the next expansion...

[grrgrrgrr]

Loops are basically megaturns. As long as these require skill rather than luck, it really shouldn't be too problematic. Stalemates are way more problematic in my opinion.

And I know this isn't gonna happen, and I may irreperably tarnish my reputation for saying this (and I may also be the wrong person), but... I really think Inheritance should go back to its pre-2019-errata form. One of the benefits of that form is also that the Estates inherit types, which makes it far more natural to determine whether it should be playable with Procession etc. And the development team has actually made good effort in reducing the amount of problems that come with that version (though there is still one bottleneck, namely with Throne Room variants). Meanwhile, the amount of "poor interactions" (such as with Conjurer) that the new version has keeps increasing.
(and this is solely about Inheritance, not about BoM/Overlord. These should definitely stick with the 2019 errata.)

[Jeebus]

Have Renaissance and Guilds been reprinted yet with the Merchant Guild, Patron and Coffers errata from earlier this year? I'm wondering if there's a printed version of these two sets with only those changes and without the newly changed Exploration, Innovation and overpay.

[Donald X.]

Have Renaissance and Guilds been reprinted yet with the Merchant Guild, Patron and Coffers errata from earlier this year? I'm wondering if there's a printed version of these two sets with only those changes and without the newly changed Exploration, Innovation and overpay.

No, the first thing to get reprinted with the recent errata (not counting the 2E's) is Adventures. I don't know if it actually has been printed or not, but the files went to the printer months ago. Those other sets, the files have not gone to the printer.

[vidicate]

Have Renaissance and Guilds been reprinted yet with the Merchant Guild, Patron and Coffers errata from earlier this year? I'm wondering if there's a printed version of these two sets with only those changes and without the newly changed Exploration, Innovation and overpay.

No, the first thing to get reprinted with the recent errata (not counting the 2E's) is Adventures. I don't know if it actually has been printed or not, but the files went to the printer months ago. Those other sets, the files have not gone to the printer.

Based on a reply you gave to another forum member today, you’re still looking at feedback on cards not sent to the printer yet? There are a couple of cards that are regrettably losing some unique qualities, but I’m withholding any further thoughts for now as I’m eagerly awaiting your 2022 errata “secret history”.

Related: Any chance of adding a couple more cards for wording reprints? For example, you have already given your blessing for people playing Priest + Sewers, or Elder + Barge the cooler way. The cards matching the intent would be pretty sweet. (If I’ve misspoken or misinterpreted your words, let me know.)

[Honkeyfresh]

Kinda wish the rules for Durations simply stated they didn’t do their next-turn effects if not in play; that seems a lot cleaner than saying “non-Duration” on every card that could possibly play another card, and it allows a bit more flexibility, too.

I Procession an Archive. What now happens to the 4 cards still set aside at the end of the turn?

Theoretical FAQ: If a Duration card sets aside cards and is removed from play before finishing that card’s instructions, discard the set-aside cards.

That should cover most if not all edge cases, and it’s rare that one would intentionally Procession such a card anyways.

Edit: I think the only other edge case is Garrison, which puts tokens. So simply adding tokens to the above definition cleans everything up.

As an aside, this is 14 Duration cards with a weird ruling vs 25+ Durations arbitrarily shut out from cards otherwise.

disagree.  A lot of times u want to procession cards even absent a 6 card available for gain.  especially when no + actions/draw doing a procession often is strong enough to buy back the card u processed and then some.

[Honkeyfresh]

Feels like Defiled Shrine should have triggered on "when you gain a Curse you bought". The way it is now, you can get Defiled Shrine VP when being attacked by Black Cat, or from Cursed Gold, which is not ideal.

agree.  being attacked with a curse should not reward the person getting attacked substantially.  That is a possible 15 pt "fountain of curses". Maybe when u gain a curse not caused by an opponent's reaction? "shouldn't be too hard?

[Honkeyfresh]

Feels like Defiled Shrine should have triggered on "when you gain a Curse you bought". The way it is now, you can get Defiled Shrine VP when being attacked by Black Cat, or from Cursed Gold, which is not ideal.

I think this change is fine and I wonder why it isn't "when you gain a Curse during your turn". Is it future proofing or is the interaction with Hideout too worrisome? And if you really want to restrict it to a Curse purchase, you can also make Defiled Shrine an Event.

That being said, the changes of all landmarks in the paragraph are kinda sloppy (though I guess they were sloppy in the first place). The Basilica one especially is just weird. I mean, you can now gain 4VP from a Paddock play. Or if you have played two Peddlers, any workshop variant will net you 2VP per play. That one IMO should be restricted to the Buy phase and ideally be "directly after spending a Buy, if you have $2 or more left, +2 VP".

Most changes are cool though. I'm especially happy with how they handled the Overpay mechanic.

100.  paddock and any workshop variant shouldn't trigger basilica just because you have played 2 coins of cards during your turn.  It defeats the entire handcuff that basilica point gains entail.

[Honkeyfresh]

"At the end of your buy phase if you didn't gain any cards in it"

How on Earth is this preferable to "If you didn't buy any cards"?? The old phrasing is clear and immediately understandable, the new phrasing is unnecessarily convoluted. And I can't imagine *anyone* who would be confused by the old wording somehow being *less* confused at the new wording. Surely, if anything, they'd be even more confused by that wording

100

[Honkeyfresh]

Feels like Defiled Shrine should have triggered on "when you gain a Curse you bought". The way it is now, you can get Defiled Shrine VP when being attacked by Black Cat, or from Cursed Gold, which is not ideal.

Or buying something with Swamp Hag in play or buying a Blockaded card

Opponent's Swamp Hag in play + Defiled Shrine + Watchtower in hand = "Thank you for the VP!"

with villa sleigh and ambassador you could even throw that curse back at them too!

[Imrahil3]

Kinda wish the rules for Durations simply stated they didn’t do their next-turn effects if not in play; that seems a lot cleaner than saying “non-Duration” on every card that could possibly play another card, and it allows a bit more flexibility, too.

I Procession an Archive. What now happens to the 4 cards still set aside at the end of the turn?

Theoretical FAQ: If a Duration card sets aside cards and is removed from play before finishing that card’s instructions, discard the set-aside cards.

That should cover most if not all edge cases, and it’s rare that one would intentionally Procession such a card anyways.

Edit: I think the only other edge case is Garrison, which puts tokens. So simply adding tokens to the above definition cleans everything up.

As an aside, this is 14 Duration cards with a weird ruling vs 25+ Durations arbitrarily shut out from cards otherwise.

disagree.  A lot of times u want to procession cards even absent a 6 card available for gain.  especially when no + actions/draw doing a procession often is strong enough to buy back the card u processed and then some.

What do $5 cards have to do with anything? I’m talking about Durations, which often revolve around getting a benefit next turn. Here are some highlights of Durations under my schema:

Processioned Haven: +2 Cards, +2 Actions, set aside two cards and then discard them.
Processioned Research: +2 Actions, Trash two cards from your hand. Per $1 the trashed cards cost, discard the top card of your deck.
Processioned Tactician: If you have at least one card in your hand, discard your hand twice.
Processioned Mastermind:
Processioned Swamp Hag:
Processioned Pirate:

Most cards end up just being +2 Cards, +2 Actions, or otherwise doing nothing. A few like Wharf give you both turns of benefit up front in exchange for burning the card now.

It’s not nothing, but rarely the optimal play.

[Jeebus]

Theoretical FAQ: If a Duration card sets aside cards and is removed from play before finishing that card’s instructions, discard the set-aside cards.

That should cover most if not all edge cases, and it’s rare that one would intentionally Procession such a card anyways.

Edit: I think the only other edge case is Garrison, which puts tokens. So simply adding tokens to the above definition cleans everything up.

As an aside, this is 14 Duration cards with a weird ruling vs 25+ Durations arbitrarily shut out from cards otherwise.

Garrison already is defined as losing all tokens when it leaves play. It's in the rulebook.

[Donald X.]

Based on a reply you gave to another forum member today, you’re still looking at feedback on cards not sent to the printer yet? There are a couple of cards that are regrettably losing some unique qualities, but I’m withholding any further thoughts for now as I’m eagerly awaiting your 2022 errata “secret history”.

Related: Any chance of adding a couple more cards for wording reprints? For example, you have already given your blessing for people playing Priest + Sewers, or Elder + Barge the cooler way. The cards matching the intent would be pretty sweet. (If I’ve misspoken or misinterpreted your words, let me know.)

I do not recommend getting excited by the idea of convincing me not to do whichever thing; especially, when the fix is "preserve some unique quality." There may be even more errata once the sets actually get reprinted; you can be optimistic there, if you've got a good suggestion. Adventures already went to the printers so any further changes there will take a while.

I put in some time on Priest / Sewers for this set of errata. There were people in favor of changing it. I'll look at it again when actually reprinting Renaissance, but this time it did not happen. To me the change seemed worse except for the specific interaction with Sewers.

There is no "intent" behind Priest / Sewers. There's just, this is how the text turns into what happens.

I am not so thrilled with the idea of changing Barge to gain an Elder combo.

[Jeebus]

So if I'm not mistaken, Donate is not changed to fix the Cargo Ship problem, right?

[Jeebus]

How does overpay work now? Based on what Ingix wrote, it seems the actual overpaying happens when you pay, before when-buy? But I don't think that makes any difference, I mean whether it's on when-pay or when-buy? Well, it could make a difference if you play with old versions of cards like Haggler; on when-buy you could gain Silk Merchant and have more $ to overpay with.

The ability that you overpaid for now happens on when-gain. So I guess this means that when you overpay, you choose how much, then you gain the card you bought, then the overpay ability happens? With Stonemason, you choose how much to overpay, then gain Stonemason, then choose the cards to gain?

How does this work with Possession? So I guess you set up a future when-gain ability when you overpay, for when you gain the Stonemason that you paid for, for instance. Something like, "the next time you gain this, gain two action cards each costing the amount you overpaid." That seems to mean that neither player, Possessor or Possessed, gets the overpay ability, since the player who overpaid never gained the card?

[Donald X.]

So if I'm not mistaken, Donate is not changed to fix the Cargo Ship problem, right?

Without thinking about it I don't know what you're talking about; so, not intentionally.

[Donald X.]

How does overpay work now? Based on what Ingix wrote, it seems the actual overpaying happens when you pay, before when-buy? But I don't think that makes any difference, I mean whether it's on when-pay or when-buy? Well, it could make a difference if you play with old versions of cards like Haggler; on when-buy you could gain Silk Merchant and have more $ to overpay with.

The ability that you overpaid for now happens on when-gain. So I guess this means that when you overpay, you choose how much, then you gain the card you bought, then the overpay ability happens? With Stonemason, you choose have much to overpay, then gain Stonemason, then choose the cards to gain?

How does this work with Possession? So I guess you set up a future when-gain ability when you overpay, for when you gain the Stonemason that you paid for, for instance. Something like, "the next time you gain this, gain two action cards each costing the amount you overpaid." That seems to mean that neither player, Possessor or Possessed, gets the overpay ability, since the player who overpaid never gained the card?

Overpay: When you pay for a card you're buying, you can pay extra; when you gain the card, stuff happens based on the amount you paid.

There is no rulebook yet for the next printing of Guilds, so I don't have rulebook text to quote, and can't check it to see how it works with Possession. For sure the online versions do *something* in these situations; I don't know what it is. It sounds likely that the rulebook text will mean that no-one gets the when-gain part of overpay if the gain was Possession'd away.

[Jeebus]

So if I'm not mistaken, Donate is not changed to fix the Cargo Ship problem, right?

Without thinking about it I don't know what you're talking about; so, not intentionally.

This:

It seems clearly preferable for e.g. Cargo Ship to be discarded in clean-up if there's no card set-aside, even if we can come up with a way to gain a card after that.

It is also seeming like, before Empires is reprinted next (and I don't know when that is and my most recent files are December 2020), I should look at, can I move Donate to e.g. when you buy it.